Asshai & GEotD Live Q&A and Chat

[@rachellematthews8037]

Just putting this out there... I would watch the hell out of a full two hour podcast on the Lovecraft references and what they might mean.

[@robertedge8473]

Been listening to History of Westeros for a couple of years now and always enjoy them. So glad to see LML on some episodes as I've read all of his essays, they're awesome. Thank you to all involved in producing these

[@DavidLightbringer]

Thanks Robert, kind of you to say so. Very glad you enjoyed, please share it with a friend. :)

[@farabisalauddin6049]

LML should open a KZbin account and upload his podcasts as radio westeros does. Would be really helpful

[@babycowkiller475]

Farabi Salauddin yes plz

[@HistoryofWesteros]

He has started uploading his podcasts to KZbin!

[@HistoryofWesteros]

kzbin.info/door/XNXT2MxtKPhsBmhFWE6xsg

[@DavidLightbringer]

Watching this video, I realize that when we talked about magic swapping that we missed a great opportunity to make a "two magics, one cup" joke. My mind must have been wandering or something, there's just no excuse for that.

[@chinaskibloodline]

Very disappointed you didn't answer my questions; have you ever killed a man, have you ever seen a grown man naked?

[@DavidLightbringer]

If I had killed a man, I wouldn't tell you, I'm sure you understand. As for naked men, I live in San Francisco. You can't go more than a week or so without a naked man or two, and you really want to blow your mind, google "folsom street fair."

[@chinaskibloodline]

I saw my first prostitute in San Francisco on holiday when I was ten; there was a beautiful but troubled lady stood on the corner and I was concerned, so I asked my mum what was wrong, and she told me! Too young! So anyway I gave her a tissue for her to make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl with...

[@travisslade6860]

@@chinaskibloodlinelol wtf.

[@Angenga]

I have spent the last 2 weeks binge watching your videos, I fucking love this channel

[@HistoryofWesteros]

glad to have you aboard, thanks for watching!

[@djtownsend2537]

thanks to all involved for taking the time and making the effort to provide this content...much appreciated and enjoyed

[@shaft9000]

While Gwynn&Yolkboy and the various other guests are also excellent, I must say that having LmL on lately is such a great move. Tinfoil observation: If Preston Jacobs got on here with you two, the intenet might implode, LOL. .... tinfoil warning: one of the things in S1 of GoT that has haunted me for years has been that the first and last scenes of Season1 ("visual bookendings") are capped by overhead shots of a silver or gold circle bearing a line through them: the circle of dead wildlings in S1ep01->final episode of S1 of Dany's dragon-hatching fire; both crane shots from above. Said symbols oddly resemble the two symbols of space-faring bio-science practitioners(Eco-EngineeringCorps) in many of GRRM's other books. So if it IS insignificant, then either D&D were somehow unaware of a possible interpretation and core content of George's other books and it just co-incidentally seems to fit a larger universe(1000 worlds) by happenstance, BUT the shots looked cool, so we got 'em.....somehow. Or they were merely being mischievous to get us to do exactly what I just did....arrrgh!! LOL. Cheers guys!

[@SirGeeSantos]

i hope LmL comes back for other episodes. i think he is great with you guys, a lot of chemistry, and a lot of fun, in this video and the others. this was very interesting to listen to. thanks for you hard work!

[@benjaminvonstein]

The five forts border the bleeding sea, with the dry deep near their other end. So it's possible that defending against the deep ones was their original purpose. Though what makes the most sense to me is for the evil beyond the five forts to be a constant presence pushing out towards the realms of man. So that the blood betrayal would have brought about the long night by crippling the five forts' ability to hold back the darkness...kinda how the chaos in westeros has crippled the Wall's ability to hold back the darkness from the lands of always winter...

[@prof.cecilycogsworth3204]

The evolution of Qyburn was new to me. Thanks for a great podcast.

[@painkillerjane2425]

Thanks for the shout out you guys!!!!

[@prof.cecilycogsworth3204]

That was most interesting information about analysing the evolution between the earliest released chapters and their finished versions.

[@oWildChildo]

Love your videos, and have been so glad to see you cover GEotD. A few things i'd like to share. The "Ice Priestess" you mentioned reminded me of Bran's flashback vision of the woman with the sickle. And as for the origin of the Others, its not fun to think the show has just showed us that the children made and used the Others as a weapon. But it just works with the theme of the story. If you go into the Earth and become one with it when you die that means all life is connected, and all magic is in life/blood(tree-sap?). Humans learning the power of life/blood harnessed it in ways that would separate them from that connection. In the form of swords at first and then on a larger scale castles, Where the fire of their life would rest. In a way Humans are sucking the life out of the Earth, or at least effecting of balance of life/power with their numbers and taming of land(Thanks to Garth Greenhand). So if Humans are destroying the Earth, like The Children (who are one with the Earth) believe. Then the Others would be a good retaliation for the Gods/Earth to bring back some balance. I think a Quote from Leaf in ADWD sums it up nicely "The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them." Oops i rambled on a bit there, it's easy to get carried away. I'm sure you know what that's like though, haha. Anyway, thanks for the videos and all your content. Keep it up! =]

[@swyzzlestyx]

Shared on Facebook. This is Bemy Snugglebunny, so thanks for sharing my comment as a question.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah thanks so much for your great contribution, I was thinking about all of that in a foggy way so it was terrific to get a real explanation of how that would work. Nice job. What did you think of my observations about phosphorus and comets?

[@reachinghigher4259]

GRRM has also made a point to say that Targ-typical features are not always because of having Targ blood. Like Arthur Dayne IIRC had purple eyes but it's NOT because he had any Targ blood. Purple eyes can be there for other reasons.

[@archmaesterdrew8564]

There are some interesting parallels with Jack Vance's novella "Dragon Masters" (which won the 1963 Hugo Award), both with the cross-breeding of humans and dragons and specialization of dragons, but also the 'Plague Star" in Tuf Voyaging. GRRM is a huge Vance fan. :)

[@archmaesterdrew8564]

Awesome discussion -- reminds me of that old BBC show "Connection, with James Burke", but in ASOIAF! Very illuminating! Thanks! :)

[@AndréVilaFranca]

Great episode guys! Keep it up!!

[@archmaesteremma1883]

Hi guys! Yet another great show - I love your combined perspectives on this. I just had a thought triggered by LmL making a little suggestion about the possibility of the Night's Queen being an "ice priestess" of some description. If ice priestesses existed, you would expect some sort of worship to go along with that (similar to the relationship between the old gods and nature, or R'hllor and fire), but we don't see it in anyone other than Craster (who is a very atypical wildling). So, if the Night's King did have a hand in creating or empowering the Others in some way, and was helped by a priestess of this icy religion, could that religion have been decimated as part of the destruction of all information surrounding the Night's King? Anyway, I look forward to listening to your next podcasts and hopefully many more combined episodes! Kind regards, Archmaester Aemma/Duchess of Tillymage :)

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hey Duchess! Great point, and actually, there is evidence that wildlings other than Craster worship the cold gods in TWOIAF: "some accounts say there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the frozen shore, or crab gods at Storrold's Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed."

[@iRezr]

maybe the tiger-woman was a warg

[@DavidLightbringer]

Oh as opposed to a cotf, a human skinchanger that skinchanged tigers? Yes I think that's a reasonable suggestion for sure. That could easily explain the name "tiger woman." And I think there are some metatextual clues about skibchaging on the Isle of Leng. I forgot to mention that the ruler of Leng is called the God-Empress, which could be a clue about who marries a God-Emperor like the Bloodstone E.

[@iRezr]

Yeah!I think you're on to something there.

[@NolanDaddy]

I love the Hightowers fighting dragons at battle Isle theory good job. What if Leyton Hightower is entranced by the black stone of the Hightower.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah just about anything is possible with Leyton. Who knows what kind of spirits haunt that friggin place. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of the Hightowers in the next book :)

[@NolanDaddy]

Lucifer means Lightbringer Love your essays bruh they fire . Was it you that said the children taught the first faceless man? TWOIAF says the doom was caused by the murders of the fire mages while the kindly man tells us that the 1st FM gave the gift to his masters .That being said I agree with your point of human actions causing the catastrophes of planets. Good shit LML stay with Aziz and Ashaya yall are great alone but amazing together.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Thanks Kevin, I appreciate it. No, I haven't talked about the faceless men yet, primarily because I don't feel like I have a good handle on them yet. I wish I knew, they are a real stumper. In any case I'm sure I will be doing stuff with HoW in the future, and I hope to get my own videos going sometimes soon as a bit of an offshoot. Don't be a stranger, I'm always happy to hear your take on my stuff. Cheers ~

[@NolanDaddy]

Lucifer means Lightbringer My bad that was GOT and Norse mythology .I listened to your podcast one day at work after I had seen you on the Dayne episode. That's what's up .Make a vid I'm watching. cheers!

[@DavidLightbringer]

No worries, that's another really good study of mythology in ASOIAF, although at times it might suffer from trying to interpret ASOIAF solely through the lens of Norse myth, because George combines Norse myth with a hundred other things and even the norse myth isn't taken one-for-one. I'll get a video up here sooner or later. Right now I met be setting the record for most youtube followers without having an actual video, lol.

[@virgyvirgil]

i loved the 3 part series on dayne ashai and empire of the dawn and listening to this is great too :)

[@DavidLightbringer]

Right on, glad you liked it! Twas originally going to be one episode, but it seemed like too much information, and I think we ended up making three pretty good episodes out of it, so it worked out well it seems.

[@virgyvirgil]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I subbed to your podcast because of your history of Westeros appearances and your perspective on the series made me appreciate the fantastical elements of the story a lot more

[@DavidLightbringer]

Right on virgyvirgil, that's music to my ears. If you have any thoughts or feedback on the podcasts the place to leave a comment is on the text versions of the pods on lucifermeanslightbringer.com, I'd always love to hear your reaction :) Cheers, see you around!

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

Top three dragon scenes I would love to see: 1 - Vhagar and Caraxes fighting over the God's Eye; 2 - The field of fire; 3 - Balerion bomb diving Harrenhall

[@DavidLightbringer]

Lincoln Noronha hell yeah love to see any of those... Damon over the Gods Eye gets my vote

[@TheInfamousThey305]

I said it during the live stream, but Azor Ahai being an actual villain is an interesting theory. The thought never occurred to me even though there are no fully good or bad people in asoiaf. Always saw him as the Goku or Luke Skywalker type of guy lol

[@DavidLightbringer]

Right on, that's right at the core of my theorizing so check out lucifermeanslightbringer.com if you're curious about following that line of thinking. I've always though the AA tale is suspect, simply because the idea of human sacrifice to make a magic sword does sound quite right for a hero to me. But then I started unraveling some of the older mythology and folklore of the series and it all pointed to Azor Ahai as a villain. For example, the moon cracks when NN is stabbed with Lightbringer. What kind of hero breaks the moon? My research leads me to believe this moon breaking was the cause of the LN, so this would make AA the dude who brought on the LN. Essentially, I think AA was the Bloodstone Emperor, and Nissa Nissa was the Amethyst Empress. And it goes form there.

[@TheInfamousThey305]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I definitely have to check it out. You guys always have very in-depth discussions

[@MrScottie301]

Great videos guys! LML should alway be on the show. So I don't know if this was said but do you think the Ghost of High Heart could be the child of a person ( maybe Bloodraven) and a children of the forest member?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah you tell em! Of course then I'd never have time to do my own show. But I love working with HoW and I am sure we'll do it again. Thanks for the very kind words!

[@HistoryofWesteros]

We will certainly have him on again, it's always fun for all!

[@MrScottie301]

Lucifer means Lightbringer are you going to add more KZbin videos?

[@christianadams211]

Love that Brian Fantana said what I was thinking during the Tiger-Women talk. In the main series I hope there are Creatures who come from the Grey Waste same as the White Walkers and Dani goes further East instead of West while Jon does his Jesus thing in the west. That's an Idea I came up with that I am yet to be exposed too but GRR Martin loves not doing what I want think is gonna happen yet still keeps me captivated even though I'm prolly way off.

[@stanklepoot]

If the irregular seasons are the long term effect of the same phenomenon that brought about the Long Night, then I have an idea about that. Now, this is off the top of my head, so I might end of leaving out some elements, and if that's the case, I apologize. Everyone knows that the Earth rotates on its axis once a day, and that it revolves around the Sun once a year (365 and 1/4 days to be more specific). Not everyone is aware, however, that the Earth also wobbles a little bit. This wobble is believed to be the result of aggregate fluid dynamics forces, or more simply, the total force generated by the movement of all air and( more importantly) water. We also know that our Moon has a dramatic effect on tidal forces, keeping them from becoming more extreme than they are. Now, if we're going with the theory that there was once a second moon in Martin's world, and that it was destroyed by a comet, we're left to ponder not just the short term effects, but the long term ones as well. In the short-term, we'd expect a large amount of debris to enter our atmosphere. Most of it would burn up on entry, but some would impact as meteorites of varying size. All of this debris would result in a tremendous amount of dust in the atmosphere. The larger impacts could very well generate increased seismic activity, allowing more volcanic material to force its way to the surface. So, the dust effect would be amplified by a large increase in the amount of ash in the atmosphere. Combined, these materials would filter out much of the sunlight, creating something akin to a nuclear winter, or as Martin calls it, Long Night. Now, if you believe that there was a second moon that was destroyed by a comet, then this shouldn't be anything surprising. Whether or not you thought about every step of the process, this is the most straight forward way that such an event would cause the Long Night. But those are only the short-term effects. What might the long-term effects be? The rotation and revolution of the planet don't appear to have been noticeably affected, but what about the wobble? Well, depending upon the outward force created by the moon's destruction, the cumulative force of the impacts on the planet, and the sudden and ongoing alteration of gravitational forces, might that have generated a much more severe and irregular planetary wobble? You also have to take into consideration that the loss of a moon could also lead to more extreme tidal forces, which would also affect the planet's degree of wobble. Now, our seasons are determined by the line of latitude upon which the sun's rays fall most directly. When the sun's rays fall directly on the equator, we have the vernal and autumnal equinoxes (spring and fall). In the northern hemisphere, when the suns rays are as northern as they get (Tropic of Cancer) we have our summer solstice, and when they are the furthest south (Tropic of Capricorn) we have our winter solstice. The question is, could the wobble become severe and irregular enough to affect this process? Could a hemisphere be kept at each extreme for longer periods of time. Or, if not at each extreme throughout that period of time, then not go fully into the other until the wobble eventually carried you away from the current extreme into its opposite. In other words, a prolonged period in which we experienced spring and summer, with a dip into fall being the furthest we went. Eventually, the wobble would take us into a prolonged period in which the opposite was true. Fall and winter, with occasional touches of early spring, but no summer. Just a thought. I'd love to hear what others think about this idea.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hey stanklepoot, welcome to my nightmare. Much ha ha ha... So. You have my thought process exactly as far as the first part - ash, smoke, and debris from the moon meteor burning up in the atmosphere, and then a few larger impacts which throw up a ton of ash and debris, and most likely a couple of earthquakes and volcanoes set off, making it all worse. All of that is pretty easy to follow - it is more or less something which has happened in the real world. As for the wobble and all of that... we discussed many ideas related to this last year when I first began wiring my essays ("we" being the long comments thread of everyone on Westeros.org tossing all these ideas around). I think this is the most straightforward and basic idea that is somewhat loosely based on plausible science - which is all we should be looking for, as this sis a fantasy story first and foremost. However, I do think George bases his magic on loosely scientific or natural processes, with magic added and twisted to his purposes, so it's appropriate to think about the Long Night disaster as an even which has a magical and a rational explanation which should be in sync - that's how I approach it anyone. Like the Doom was a supermassive volcanic explosion, but it wasn't JUST a volcanic explosion, because 400 years later the shit is all haunted. It was a volcanic eruption on magical steroids as I like to say, and the moon / comet thing should be the same. And so to for the seasons. So, the thing about the wobble is that the wobble produces the cycle of precession of the equinoxes, and thus is highly connected to the zodiac. I believe that the Last Hero's 12 companion who died during his quest are a nod to the zodiac (for various symbolic reasons and clues I won't go into here), with the Last Hero being the surviving moon or the constellation Orion (which is the Sword of the Morning constellation in ASOIAF). The point is that the idea of the zodiac 'dying' could refer to more than just the stars being blotted out, it could have to do with changing the path of the the stars appear to take or the timing of that cycle. Another way to approach is form the standpoint of the second moon. If we did have a second moon, even if it was a smallish moon, and suddenly lost it - it WOULD affect the tides and the wobble, would it not? Perhaps all sorts of other things? Martin doesn't necessarily have to have thought all of this through very scientifically, he might simply be thinking about a second moon being destroyed, and thus messing up the planet's rotational mechanics in some fashion which creates uneven seasons, and that's that. You are basically telling me that a messed-up wobble could actually account for not only the erratic and prolonged winters and summer, but also the false springs which come every once in a while? That's really interesting. have you listened to any of my podcasts? Cheers man, great comments.

[@stanklepoot]

I've listened to most of your podcasts. Don't think I've listened to the "Martin is writing Modern Mythology" one yet. Once upon a time, however, I did a paper about Tokien's work being an attempt to create modern mythology. So, it looks like we've gone to similar places with different authors. Haven't read the essays yet, though. I don't remember ever being on Westeros.org, and the only time I've been on the reddit was through a google link when I was looking for specific info. Whether or not an exaggerated wobble would actually have that effect, I can't say for sure. As you said, however, we need not assume that Martin is meticulously recreating an exacting physical model. It's a work of fantasy. As long as it's based on a rational theoretical model, it's ok to exaggerate the results or play a little loose with the details. It fits the genre, and does so in a way that allows non-astrophysicists to ponder the nature of the world Martin has created.

[@stanklepoot]

One last point. As for the wobble, it's not like they'd notice the motion itself. In relativistic terms, we observe our world from our own terrestrial perspective, not from an outside perspective that would allow us to view the world as a whole and witness its movements. So, unless they had satellites orbiting Planetos like we have orbiting Earth, the only real evidence of the wobble would be the movement of the stars in the night sky.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes, that's a very good way of putting it, we are on the same page here. He seems to be, for the most part, personifying various elemental forces of nature as magical, which really makes a lot of sense and makes his magic seem more grounded that if we have sorcerers flying through the air blasting each other with magic wands. That sort of thing is cool too, but I think grounding the magic in loosely scientific / rational concepts makes a lot of sense and works very well for his writing.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes, the change in the stars is what I was focusing on. Ancient peoples observed the stars very closely as a general rule, so they would notice a change in the precessional cycle potentially. Martin talks about the twelve houses of heaven so we know he is thinking about the zodiac. How much change in the movement of the stars would we get with the kind of wobble you are speaking of? Totally minuscule or not?

[@rdz2007]

I'm sorry if anyone has pointed this out yet, but Jon is described as having eyes so grey they almost look black. If you take a quick look at color pallets you notice that ONYX is the last grey color before black. I'm wondering if this could be more evidence of his heritage to the gemstone emperors of the dawn age. Also, remember that "the prince that was promised" denotes a royal heritage, and that the royal heritage of the "prince that was promised" is most likely descendent of the first "royal" family following the Pearl emperor. just a thought.

[@abolishpolice5232]

1:25:50 The Hightowers got called "the lords in the high tower" or whatever by the locals because their name was unpronounceable, probably

[@sham2mar]

I just started listening to listening to the show from episode 1 a few months ago and was wondering what happened to Steve

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Sadly, he passed last year. He had a serious illness.

[@blackwalder450]

That's really sad, i liked his input.

[@ChristianAuditore14]

What is he saying at 7:12? I can understand

[@Lightwish01]

I wish there was more info on the Necropolis under the Lengii cause that is cool lore. Same with the five forts that are holding the borders against the baleful beast. Yeen is a bit short on lore also.

[@DavidLightbringer]

There are clues about Leng and the Old Ones to be found, and I plan to try to tease them out sometimes soon.

[@andrewjones9798]

I wonder if George is a graham Hancock fan, also anyone ever wonder if the walkers were underneath the fist of the first men? I always thought that's why ghost was barring his teeth at the rocks.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I have to think he might be - Fingerprints of the Gods came out in 94, as George was writing AGOT. As for the Fist... I think there is something we don't know about, but I am not sure what.

[@haterhayder]

Hello, love the series, watched all of your podcasts as well as LML's as well, I was wondering if you guys plan on doing an episode on the deep ones, I know lml is working on a series touching on it but anything in depth coming out? Also about the sisters in the east that castrate 99/100 men? Forgot their exact names but yeah thanks anyways and keep it up!

[@haterhayder]

Also what do you think about the black oily stone and meteoric iron being used to make valyrian steel swords with dragon fire used to heat it cause of higher heat requirements? Hence why the art was lost, lack of dragons => can't reforge, lack of oily stone knowledge => can't forge to begin with. Ice could of been reformed via using wild fire maybe?

[@SkulkingSkullKid]

Ben Online4abit The Sisters in the East just make me think of the Gerudo tribe from the Legend of Zelda series.

[@ortziri1225]

I persit, the red comet somehow perturb the magnetic/gravitationnel/orbital course even a little bit, witch deeply disrupt le natural meteorologi of planetos. The comet coming back just "re-spin" that disturbance, preventing a eventuel back to balance and regular season.

[@33sheih]

you mention a lot Lovecraft's influence on the story, but talking about the empire of the dawn you got to mention Morcook and Elric of Melniboné an ancient super civilization spawning all other civilizations, dragonlords, one hero recurring time and again over time and space to return balance to the universe - Azur Ahi is connected to Morcooks Eternal Champion in more then one way...

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Right you are! Unfortunately though, I know a lot more about Lovecraft than I do Moorcock.

[@33sheih]

not sure how unfortunate that is:) while i have some friends that got into fantasy and role-playing through Elric it took me 3-4 tries to get through any given novella i tried to tackle from the saga and i gave up after a couple there probably are gems in Morcoock's work - after all GRRM found it a source of inspiration to the world we all admire , but they are hidden deep beneath layers of boring/archaic story telling

[@remurraymd]

Seminal in GOT Bran's First Flight with the 3 Eyed Crow who pecks out his "Third eye" (Brow Chakra,Bindi,All-seeing Eye) to the East and North Beyond Time Space and Causality signals the importance of the East in bringing spring to the upcoming winter.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Ok I see what you mean - he look stop Asshai and the dragons stirring beneath the sunrise before finally looking north to the Wall, Jon, and the HoW. I have taken that to indicate Asshai as an opposite to the HoW, so that is a similar idea.

[@jeffseidl]

Human heart in conflict can be found to a degree in Lovecraft...if I can make another Shadow over Innsmouth reference. I'll try not to spoil the story too much but here is a warning anyway. I think you guys know the story so you'll see my point even if I keep it vague. SPOILER ALERT FOR SHADOW OVER INNSMOUTH: The main character is initially repulsed by the town/people, flees in fright, ends up learning about his heritage and well you know how it ends. Not a GREAT example, this is off the cuff, but I'd wager I could find more.

[@erickappaz8027]

In this episode you discuss the possibility of dragons being bred for different purposes, which i think is an excellent theory. I was thinking since we don't truly know where Daenerys's dragons came from the chances of all 3 of them being war dragons is fairly low. While Drogon being a black dragon ( which you have speculated to be a different species of dragon all together) is likely a war dragon it is not outlandish to think that her other two dragons might be bred for different purposes. I know that there is no evidence to support this but unless all 3 of the eggs were formerly Targaryen eggs the likelihood of them all being war dragons is fairly low.

[@vvvthirteen]

LML please upload your podcasts to youtube

[@courtneymazza3853]

I loved the debate references! ;)

[@davidhowlett7567]

Been making my way through the various episodes of this podcast over the last few weeks, having recently been introduced to Westeros History, and having listened to this one and the preceding GEotD episode a rather tinfoil-laden theory about the origin of the Others and their connection to the "Second Moon" theory popped into my head. As discussed in this Q&A, it would be more dramatically and thematically satisfying for the Others to have arisen due to the actions of man, rather than the Children - especially given the fact that the Long Night seems to have occurred some time *after* the Children and First Men ceased hostilities. Presuming that the origin story presented on the TV show is not entirely an invention of the showrunners, I think it is possible that the ritual seen on the show - or something akin to it - could well have originated with the Children but was used by the First Men as a means of further imbuing themselves with arcane powers. This may have worked successfully to their advantage for centuries - but what if, after the Second Moon fractured and the "greasy black stone" was spread throughout Planetos immediately prior to the Long Night, one or more of the First Men attempted the ritual with this new and intriguing rock rather than the obsidian they had used previously? As I said, very tinfoil-laden and almost certainly not accurate.... but I quite like it :p

[@wroot1]

i much prefer this style (discussion-based rather than scripted) :)

[@DavidLightbringer]

I understand where you are coming from, however it's just not possible to cover all the information needed for certain topics without scripting it. Hopefully we struck a balance by having a scripted ep and a discussion ep.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Hey guys another great podcast. 1 minor thing though. If obsidian was involved in the making of dragonsteel, then it's unlikely to have been added directly to the steel itself. in both the books and real life, obsidian is brittle, and brittlness is not a desirable quality in an edged weapon. Obsidian could have possibly been used in the making of dragonsteel, but not actually added to its composition. On the other hand the Others make swords out of ice, which is also brittle, so perhaps the Children are capable of making non-brittle obsidian weapons. However if this is the case then I see little need to combine obsidian with steel.

[@babycowkiller475]

Stephen Curtin over thinking

[@TrpeGrozni]

About tiger woman, remined me how was called warrior party in Volantis ?? And hwat about slave soldiers of the same city. Can it be that tiger woman was just worior or violence lady.

[@hambino28]

what do you think about the cause of (book)Aemons death? I am of the mind that Sam left him on deck when Aemon was getting glass candled. He then caught fever and lead him to have more severe visions coupled up with the communication he was possibly having with Quaithe or Marwyn. IDK I know Aemon was old but I just think he may not have gotten sick if Sam was more vigilant. Though travel to Oldtown might have killed him any ways, it is a little odd.

[@hambino28]

LmL you are in the Bay Area? Right on, I'm in the East Bay. You know topigraphically SF is kind of a fitting King's Landing. Question: Which bay is filthier, Blackwater or SF Bay?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Noland Ryan depends on if we are talking post-Battle of the Blackwater or not. I hear wildfire residue stays in the water about as long as that nasty shit they use to "clean up" oil spills... The SF Bay has sharks; Blackwater Bay has Merlings, so... definitely wouldn't go swimming in either one. :)

[@charlesbubba8708]

The one dislike is the bloodstone emperor

[@farabisalauddin6049]

Lucifer means Lightbringer pls upload ur podcast as KZbin videos

[@DavidLightbringer]

Farabi Salauddin let me ask you, what is the advantage to having an audio only podcast on KZbin as opposed to iTunes or as audio files embedded on my website? I wasn't thinking to put anything on KZbin until I make an actual video.

[@farabisalauddin6049]

Lucifer means Lightbringer well back in Bangladesh KZbin doesn't buffer and it's more accessible... Well I m following ur podcasts anyway, it would be convenient of it was on KZbin

[@midnight4646]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I'm not the person you responded to, but all of the podcasts I listen to are on KZbin and it makes it much easier to listen to many different podcasts when they're all in one place, instead of having to go to multiple websites to find and download different podcasts. Most people probably just use iTunes but there are few like me who don't. I have occasionally listened to your podcast from your website but would be much more inclined to keep up with it regularly if it were available on KZbin. It may not be worth the time and effort to upload to youtube just to attract a few extra listeners, but it might not hurt either. Just my two cents.

[@charlesbubba8708]

Stephen Bishop I just subscribed to LmL on the app podcast addict, I don't know if all his episodes can be found over there but there's some. Major props to the guy by the way, his is the brand of asoif autism that I enjoy the best

[@SomeAussie]

bloody great episode im looking forward to one about euron

[@CinescapeMedia]

Aziz, I'd LOVE to have you as a guest on my show sometime!

[@kevinwilson4238]

Could tiger women be just a skin changer? Arya skin changes a cat why not a Tiger?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes, Bran Fantana said the same thing above. Very possible. A women who skinchanges a tiger could certainly explain the name tiger woman.

[@morgenstern2603]

I always thought the reason why you have to be Valyrian to ride a dragon is not that you need the blood to tame them, but that you should be heat-resistant for when the dragon breathes fire, while you sit upon him. I imagine he is getting quite hot at that time.

[@Parsley-pr9sv]

Some thing I thought would be appreciated in this comment section is that an ancient Rome during the time of the late republic and early empire The most popular wine was called Falerian and it was sad to have burned like a fire on its way down obviously it’s not spelled the same but it’s pronounced pretty much exactly the same as Valerian And I mean the Valerian’s are modeled after ancient Rome I thought it was kind of ironically interesting not sure if George knew about it it’s kind of obscure but I wouldn’t surprise me if it was just a good coincidence anyways have a good one

[@rogersampeur7033]

I think horn only needs to be blown once n dragons r bonded to that blood line

[@Manwendlil]

carcossa comes from ambrose bierce´s short story "An Inhabitant of Carcosa". robert w.chambers borrowed it from him in turn lovecraft got it from him. from there it found its way to g.r.r martin and other authors and visionaires,

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

hey aziz, where can I find the comparisons between early sample chapters and final ones?

[@HistoryofWesteros]

here you go, this is the one for AFFC includes links to the earlier ones (ADWD not out yet): www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/57zaas/spoilers_extended_asoiaf_archives_september_2000/

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

tks!

[@mistorWhiskers]

In regards to the views of the Valerians compared to the Targaryens we must also remember history has a tendency to distort our precipitation of what reality actually was.

[@DavidLightbringer]

when it rains it pours huh?

[@sammcleod3986]

Putting some pieces of different subjects you touched on together: what if the Bloodstone Emperor married a Child of the Forest (Tiger Bride) in order to engineer the Others and bring about the Long Night? Or it's a sign of some kind of pact between him and at least some Children?

[@DavidLightbringer]

I just left a long comment about the potential connection between the Bloodstone Emperor (who I think is also Azor Ahai) on the original GEOTD episode comments thread - you can find it by selecting "newest comments first" and it will be right at the top. Mentioned that I think AA / the BSE might have ended his life as the NK, and so your proposed BSE 'marrying tiger woman' as a story about marrying a cotf would be the NK and NQ within the context of my hypothesis. I look at the NW as an icy analog to Melisandre, so if she was part cotf, that would make a lot of sense to me because I think that greenseer magic is at the heart of both ice and fire magic. When the TV show depicted the cotf making the Others, I think this is roughly similar to what the book truth will be, that greenseer magic was involved in making the Others. The NQ and NK were sacrificing to the Others, which as we know from Craster, means making babies that become Others. How I see this going down is a women turning into an ice priestess, just as mel is a fire priestess with warm skin who doesn't need to eat or sleep because she is fueled on R'hllor power, and then having babies with a special man like the NK - who might be Azor Ahai, so he's the blood of the dragon- and the result is a kind of frozen fire being, the Others. They have burning star eyes, but they are cold burning stars. It's like they swallowed some fire and turned it cold, but it still burns. Remember how GRRM likes to say "nothing burns like the cold" a lot? That is the idea. There is frozen fire in the sense of cooled magma to make obsidian, which retains the essence of fire magic and therefore kills Others, and then there is frozen fire as in fire that has been turned cold. That is the Others. Anyway check out my comment on the other page if you are curious. Great comment by the way.

[@sammcleod3986]

Lucifer means Lightbringer Thanks for taking the time to reply. I just found your work through these episodes, and I'm big into symbolism, myth, and astronomy, so I'm loving it. I write a bit myself, put out my first novel this past year, but I spend a lot of time reading, thinking, and talking about asoiaf. I want to try to start articulating my own theories into other mediums as well. So anyway, thanks for the ideas, great work and the inspiration!

[@sammcleod3986]

Lucifer means Lightbringer And was the other comment you meant your reply on my other comment? Have you ever seen the Electric Universe/ Thunderbolts of the Gods stuff? It's out there, but interesting ideas. They basically have a similar theory about our world that you do about Planetos.

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

So, the Isle of Tears was basicly a Valyrian concentration camp, with all the experiments on blood magic going on there.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah, nice place, huh?

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

"I wonder how the long night was in Sothoryos..." My guess, it never happened there. Sothoryos has a much worse apocalypse. Its the land of the Drowned God apocalypse. Sothoryos is Cuthullu dominion. The "Great Other" is small potetoes there.

[@Lexian1]

Yo. Carcosa is not Lovecraft. It is pre-Lovecraft, from the King in Yellow, by Robert W. Chambers. Lovecraft was, in turn, influenced by Chambers.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

you're right. I've gotten that wrong many times and keep forgetting it. It's like I have a mental block on that particular factoid.

[@jeffseidl]

To the point about George giving a rational explanation of dragon taming through offering up food- why in the seven hells would someone who refuses to entertain the idea of a magical component be reading these books? It's a fantasy series. I don't disagree there is clearly more than one way to win the dragon's favor, just absurd that someone would try to refute the presence of magic in this world/in regards to taming dragons with that being their defense.

[@TYTfan]

Passenger 57 reference nice.

[@ComeInAlone00000]

Aziz always has the coolest shirts. The snaggletooth Hound and Castle Greyjoy are tied for my fav.

[@NolanDaddy]

Nights King = Bloodstone Emperor = Euron

[@HistoryofWesteros]

could be, for sure.

[@DavidLightbringer]

As I mentioned, I think that AA = the BSE, and that person may also be the NK, certainly. That's something I will be getting into on my podcast eventually.

[@Jennifer-di4nl]

Kevin Wells I'm still stuck on the Stannis=Nights King theory.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Stannis is a really important symbol, because he parallels both the NK and AA. It's possible that the explanation is that AA was the NK.

[@babycowkiller475]

Kevin Wells elaborate?

[@joejessup9775]

If LmL's theory about the second moon breaking apart and showering Planetos with meteors is correct, wouldn't there being a huge number of large craters (and obvious ones at that) all over Westeros, Essos and Ulthos? I think the lack of obvious craters and an insufficient amount of time for weather to erode such large geological features thoroughly disproves that theory.

[@freerunner0682]

not if it cracked like in the theory if thousands of smaller meteors hit so long ago erosion wouldve made them all unremarkable by now, just like on earth you dont see millions of craters although weve been hit billions of times already, you can see them on the moon because the moon has no atmosphere thus no Wind rain and erosion.

[@ObinisaTalk]

hey by any chance you can provide a link to the sample chapters comparrison. i would be really interested in checking that out. it was mentioned around 39 minutes in the video.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Here you go, this is the first one: www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/531sdu/spoilers_extended_asoiaf_archives_sample_chapters/

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

Nettles is at the heart of the discussion about wether it is necessary to have "magic blood" (i.e have Targaryen ancestors), or not, in order to tame a dragon. People that argue that it is not necessary to be a Targaryen to tame a dragon, always point to Nettles as an example. And it is certainly possible that this thesis is correct: that you only need to use a combination of food and technique to tame a dragon. The way I like to think about this (and all the other theories in ASOIF), is what is most likely, in light of existing evidence. In this case, there is only one case of dragon taming that is not directly linked to Targaryen blood, and one data point does not make statistics. Plus, its not even a clear case, since Nettles could have been "dragon seed". Thus I believe only Targaryens can tame dragons. I will change my mind, if the evidence starts point otherwise. So far, it hasn't.

[@watsuppeopleitsme]

buckethead is a god among mortal man

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Amen.

[@remurraymd]

Aztecs in MesoAmerica conquered all foes with Obsidean blades and blood sacrifice in real earth history many similarities to Planetos history. I think the red sheen of magic tempered steel might be blood(also carbon based) or even weirwood (Dead Jojen) paste.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes, I think the use ofd MesoAmerican folklore in ASOIAF is a bit under-discussed. Not only did they use obsidian for blades, but shamans used obsidian mirrors (a dark mirror) for spellcraft. That sounds very like the idea of using glass candles, does it not? In my original theory about the Great Empire of the Dawn, I wrote about more about the whole Night Sun idea and the Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire and War who is a night sun, if you are curious to check that out, it is right here: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127025-astronomy-of-planetos-fingerprints-of-the-dawn/

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

I always thought that the planet's irregular seasons was tied into the story we get about there once being two moons. We get that origin story for dragons according to some merchant from Qarth that claims one of the moons cracked (or hatched) and a 1000 1000 dragons poured from it. Now first of all, what people thought were dragons coming out of the moon was most likely moon fragments burning up as they fell to the planet - which ded could be mistaken as dragons....that part is irrelevant tho. My point is, IF there were originally two moons and one was destroyed, then that would DEFINITELY throw the planets seasons all out of whack.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Have you checked out my site? You're barking up the tree where my tree house lives, lol.

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

lol no but been meaning to ever since i saw u on here....i havent had anytime to do anything asoiaf related. havent even worked on my own channel.

[@DavidLightbringer]

well you can always do it as a podcast and let me talk your ear off while you commute or clean house or whatever. Cheers, hope to hear from you sometime.

[@No1important88]

Wrong Aziz, we know of plenty Targaryans eaten/killed by dragons while trying to claim them, Many dragonspawn (Targaryan bastards) met this fate on dragonstone during the dance of the dragons.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

None of those were confirmed dragonseeds, they merely claimed to be.

[@fugyomom]

Lucifer, The 13th commander couldn't have sex with an Other because she was too cold? You haven't met my girlfriend.

[@DavidLightbringer]

ba-bum CH

[@kylez9094]

Buckethead is a shadowbinder

[@DavidLightbringer]

patchface stargaryen no doubt, great call

[@coltthomson9126]

couldn't you just use a background like your thumbnail and post a video on here for the hint for spring podcast?

[@DavidLightbringer]

What's that Colt?

[@coltthomson9126]

you guys said you weren't doing a video for the hint for spring podcast. so I said couldn't you just use the thumbnail as the background and just heat the audio since the guest doesn't want to be seen.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Oh right I follow. Yeah you are right, Amin could just use an image instead of a camera. Good point. I guess you need to bug Aziz and Amin about that.

[@phosphoros3050]

While the Targaryens might have stored High Valyrian artifacts, & books on sorcery, forging Valyrian Steel, Roads, & Stone wherever they keep their fabled hoard of Dragon Eggs on Dragonstone, with the Doom of Valyria making them the last family of Dragonlords to survive, they'd have no use for Dragonbinding horns since they're able to bond with them without it. Indeed, it seems that the Targaryens must have realized that if they hid out on Dragonstone while the Doom & it's immediate aftermath played out, they'd likely be the only people in the known world with Dragons & would essentially be free of the Old Freehold's environment of 40 High Valyrian families jockeying for position within what was essentially a republic with colonial client republics (the Free Cities). The Targaryens also seemed to consistently over generations keep to a policy of endeavoring the manage their family's size so as to prevent the creation of separate Dragonlord families (even if they'd still be cadet branches of the Targaryens), or to allow any of their dragons or dragon eggs to fall out of their control (e.g. Viserys I's reaction to his brother Daemon giving his Lysene concubine Mysaria a dragon egg when she became pregnant). Dragon Binding horns don't seem necessary for an established Dragonlord family (or any cadet branch that maintains their blood), but even a single one could pose a threat to a Dragonlord family aspiring for a monopoly on Dragons, since such a horn could possibly interfere with an already established bond between a rider & their dragon. So the when Aenar the Exile & his family, vassal families, & household fled Valyria for Dragonstone, they were likely hoping that those Dragonbinding horns would be lost forever, since in their estimation, they had just inherited the world. It also seems rather odd that aside from the Targaryens going into exile, none of the other Dragonriding families (or individual members) ever seemed to attempt a strategy of growing their house's power on the fringes of the Freehold outwards (via conquest), consolidating there, & then leveraging that power to politically benefit their own power back in Valyria. The fear of rival Dragonlords using Dragonbinding horns against rivals, or the Freehold itself using the horns against the possibility of rogue Dragonlords is always a possibility.

[@bobbystones9612]

Aziz, where do I get that t-shirt?

[@jessejohnson8365]

As far as the valaryian steel goes having no knowledge of how steel is made but I had always felt that dragon glass was mixed with the steel for the fact that the fires of glass candles cannot be blown out and doesn't waiver making a perfect flaming sword. And it seems like there is more to using it as a sword visenya on many occasions makes it out like the wands of harry potter but anyway aside from that Dragon Bone seems the obvious material dragon bone is almost impervious to fire its stronger then steal and more flexable and its black so could be both but that right there would explain why it is someone would need dragons to make since you'd never find a flame hot enough to melt the bones. And why it would need to tell us of the strength.of dragon bones compared to Steel makes no sense unless there are things beside bows and hilts of weapons that were made with dragon bones it just seems like we are suppose to be looking for a steel like object or structure that is fire proof flexible and stronger then steel

[@antifusion]

Stark Examples! :D

[@felipeandresestay]

carcosa is not lovecraft

[@Zegdel]

dat Motohead T, tho

[@roanold]

What happened between LmL and HoW?

[@NolanDaddy]

Nettles was a Targ bastard that used sheep to bond with dragons just like the Valyrians plain and simple .#AATargaryen

[@Joey-pb6ul]

She was never called a dragonseed in the princess and the queen. She was only described as a small brown girl, unlike her fellow dragontamers.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Well, it's left ambiguous, but I think Kevin is just throwing down his chips on the idea of a little of both. I tend to think she was a dragonseed, because the looks don't really determine it.

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

o bsidian.. is sand...glass. made from heat in the earth...tektites are glass made from a meteor...glass didn't have carbon in it

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Real world obsidian is not the same as Planetos obsidian per GRRM. No one said glass had carbon in it.

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

he said....adding dragon glass to steel.....thats 1 line thats a problem..its not added to the steel...if your compareing to sand..it dosnt end up in the steel at the end...15:40

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

that at 18:00 you say..adding sand and glass...to add carbon.

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

and go on to say...how sharp the obsidain is...like that is suposed to effect the steel..when its added...showing you think that the sand .is being added..

[@PhillysPhinest33]

LML is the truth, as is Ashaya. Aziz needs to stop trying to pretend to be a Batman when he's really just a Robin.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I'm Batman

[@arpirate1912]

are you putting this on patreon?

[@shobhitkaul8076]

yo lml.. cool bedsheet. seems India made

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah it's an Indian tapestry. I'm just experimenting trying to find a good backdrop. Everyone else has done the maps thing or the bookcase thing. I thought the tapestry worked pretty well but a couple people thought it was distracting.

[@shobhitkaul8076]

Lucifer means Lightbringer try some wall art or sheet from this: indiacircus.com

[@RiverSprite30]

20 minutes later...

[@CdnFN1]

What about ulthos?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Not really anything to say about Ulthos is there?

[@joluoto]

It might be Uncle Island where all the missing unlces are.

[@tuamigajordana]

Lucifer.... that thing behind you... a tapestry?... is very distracting...

[@DavidLightbringer]

Right on, been experimenting with ideas for different backdrops. I guess that's an vote on the tapestry. Fair enough, I appreciate the feedback.

[@tuamigajordana]

O.O I cant believe you actually read my comment!!! Thank you so much for enlightening me on so many obscure stuff! I ADORE your videos and your opinions when it comes to everything ASOIAF!!! In fact I found the tapestry offputting because my eyes kept going behind you while I was trying to focus on what you guys were saying.

[@DavidLightbringer]

tuamigajordana oh right on well thank you and I am so glad to hear you like the show. I'll try to get my backdrop act together by the time I make my own videos.

[@XxGlaciersOfIcexX]

at some point he has to stop being a "gardener" bc there's so much content.

[@DavidLightbringer]

It's definitely a somewhat misleading label. I think he's talking about the storyline which most people follow - he gardens that. But his worldbuilding, that's a different story. I think what he's actually doing is using the world building as something of an outline, because he has set out these original characters and events and in a certain sense he is writing each scene as some sort of echo of something which already happened or which will happen. I sometimes call his writing "fractal," because there are so many damn parallels in both character and scene. He could keep writing for 5 books and still come up with new ways to parallel the Azor Ahai story, is what I mean. It's also worth noting that he's developed a lot of these ideas in his previous short story writing.

[@No1important88]

Aziz, you were saying that in humans their are these really stark examples.... but then you got amused that you used the word stark and never finished what you were saying... So what were you going to say about it?

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

glass didn't get added to steel....its used to leach out impurities. ..so is phosphorous. ..your grasp of these things is horrid

[@HistoryofWesteros]

I literally said that glass was used to leach impurities.

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

Westeros History maybe he mispoke...but he did say...the obsidian glass added carbon to it..

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

Westeros History you said glass was used to leach impurities...but also seemed to say ..the glass was in the final product....the glass seperats as slag...it dosnt add to the steel. so idk how useing it instead of sand..would make a difference. and if grrm said his obsidan is diff..why compare ours at all..

[@DavidLightbringer]

NO, that's a fair point, I didn't think that all the way through. We are looking for a way to actually have the dragonglass be present somehow in the finished product, so using it to leech out impurities doesn't quite do it. Can you think of any way to accomplish that?

[@swyzzlestyx]

I said glass was added into the vestibule, with the iron, along with sand to draw out impurities in the metal and possibly to add carbon.