Atari Filed a LAWSUIT After Seeing This...

[@battra92]

It's amazing how much of video game history is in the courtrooms.

[@Someone69769]

ace attorney

[@VXA1PSTART]

Nintendo

[@PeytonCline-r7f]

Yeah, sad even

[@pojr]

Indeed. Atari and Nintendo had quite a few lawsuits.

[@tarstarkusz]

This is one of the worst decisions in video game history. The games are not the same, not even similar. Absolutely nobody who wanted Pac Man though KC was a pac man game.

[@robintst]

My dad had an original Odyssey in 1972, it was upsold to him after he already committed to a new TV from the door-to-door Magnavox salesman. He told me he hooked it up, fiddled with it for about 20 minutes, and threw it in a closet and never looked at it again. He said, and I quote, "It was dumb, it didn't do anything." As a collector I wish he would have kept it but he left it behind with his first wife after they divorced.

[@pojr]

"it didn't do anything." He's not exactly wrong lol

[@paxhumana2015]

@robintst, maybe he was deflecting what his first wife said about him to a video game console?

[@cascadesouthernmodeltrains7547]

I had an Odyssey 2 with The Voice. When playing KC’s Crazy Chase he talks to you as you play. Mainly just saying “Watch out” and “Run” but it was really cool that it talked.

[@kurtmager1626]

One small quibble. Atari had the license to produce Pac-Man, but did not yet have a finished game on sale. K.C. Munchkin was released in 1981, but Atari's Pac-Man wasn't released until 1982.

[@pojr]

I looked into it and you're correct. My bad.

[@kurtmager1626]

One small quibble. Atari had the license to produce Pac-Man, but did not yet have a finished game on sale. K.C. Munchkin was released in 1981, but Atari's Pac-Man wasn't released until 1982. So at the time of the court cases, nothing had been released yet. When the 2600 Pac-Man was finally released, it was an even bigger let down because the general assumption was that their Pac-Man was going to be so much more. Instead, K.C Munchkin was the superior of the two.

[@MCastleberry1980]

My parents and grandparents had an Odyssey 2 when i was a kid. Honestly, KC Munchkin is better than the 2600 Pac-Man

[@gtssage]

Yes!

[@phreakwars]

KC was OK, but my addiction was Pick Axe Pete.

[@MCastleberry1980]

@phreakwars as a kid I knew ONE other kid with ah Odyssey 2. He had Pick Axe Pete so it was cool finding SOMEONE to trade games with

[@pojr]

100% true

[@cyberspere]

i think alot of people can agree with that.

[@gtssage]

My family brought home the Odyssey 2 in 1982 when I was 7 years old. I was immediately transfixed with video games. The best Odyssey 2 games that I recall owning are: pick axe pete, KC munchkin, KC's Krazy chase, UFO, demon attack, freedom fighters, and showdown in 2100 Ad (game sucks but nostalgia is a hella drug). Some serious props to the start of my lifelong love for video games. When I seen Pac-man and especially Donkey Kong in the arcades....It was all over. Old school gamer represent.

[@BigPlatinumDragon]

K.C. munchkin was my absolute favorite home console game from that generation of consoles, and I am still very disappointed in my parents for selling the console after I left for collage instead of boxing it up and sending it to me, or at the very least offering me a chance to buy it from them first.

[@gtssage]

I had to give my Odyssey 2 to my cousin the Ukraine in the mid 80's. Hope he got some good use out of it. :(

[@darthagent6]

Since a handful of Odyssey 2 games are now on Steam (Videopac Collection 1), it would be nice to see KC Munchkin, Pick Axe Pete, and Quest for the Rings appear in the future. Quest for the Rings in particular is a really fascinating game as it originally came with a physical game board and a bunch of tokens to map out the game world as you play.

[@scarosone14]

Atari went after Magnovox because people from Atari would visit the retailers and when they saw KC Munchkin they asked the sales people what it was. Their answer was that was Odyssey 2's version of Pacman. Also KC Munchkin beat Atari by getting KC Munchkin out to the stores before Atari got their Pacman out. Rumor was Atari rushed Pacman out and when the developer showed the game Atari just decided to ship it. The developer said years later it wasn't a finished copy.

[@purelogarithm]

This. Atari's concern was absolutely based on how Magnovox marketed and sold the game to consumers even to the point of saying it was "Odyssey's PacMan". People forget that not only were video games a new thing, they typically didn't have in-depth reviews and comparison breakdowns. You might have had deceptive box art (which was very common) or a few minutes of playing in the store. Video games weren't as entrenched and well-known so a customer with little to compare with could easily be confused over a knockoff if they weren't knowledgeable. Magnavox was deliberately trying to imply their game was similar to Pac-man. Being out first would also lead to confusion as well as people might believe that what Magnavox was selling was more legit versus Atari's version which was.

[@paxhumana2015]

@@purelogarithm , if I was Magnavox, then I would pull a Data East U.S.A., Inc. v. Epyx, Inc., and/or Capcom U.S.A., Inc. v. Data East Corp., on Atari, Midway, and Namco, only, instead of being one of the two sides that argued essentially the same arguments, namely, that one side ripped off, and/or plagiarized, the other side, I would actually, as well as ironically, argue the verdicts of the majority rules of those legal cases, as well as claim that adventures in mazes literally goes back into antiquity, at least as far back as the Greek legend of the Minotaur, thus the judge(s), and/or the jury, would literally have no choice but to argue that the concept of public domain overrode the claims of Atari, Midway, and Namco. Sure, I might be the a s s h o l e that made two American video game giants, as well as a Japanese video game giant, f a l l , but I would feel glad that I stood up against monopolistic and predatory behavior in the video game industry. Finally, like the saying goes, "Whatever is popular is not always right; whatever is right is not always popular".

[@mabus42]

Since you brought up the Odyssey, I thought that I should mention that The History Center in Fort Wayne, Indiana has one of those systems in near mint condition with all of the included peripherals. Granted, they don't have the unit plugged in and able to be played as it is completely behind glass. Why does some random museum in some random rust belt town have that on display? Well, Ralph Baer worked with Magnavox to not only design the console in Fort Wayne, but it was produced there too at their factory.

[@pojr]

Pretty cool that the museum gets some Odyssey representation even if it isn't a video game themed museum.

[@dougawesomecities]

I had an Odyssey 2, and I love KC Munchkin!. I never got into Pac-Man since it was that much better. They had a lot of awful games. But KC was stellar. Also Pick Axe Pete! I also like that all their titles ended with a exclamation point

[@FeralInferno]

Another MAGnificent Pojr video!

[@pojr]

Lol, thank you!

[@wadmodderschalton5763]

In fact, Atari's Pac-Man for the 2600 feels like a bootleg low-budget fan game than a true port of the Arcade original.

[@pojr]

Agreed. K.C. Munchkin was better despite it not being official.

[@btr3k]

11:04 just to give it a mention, Circus Atari (1980) is very much a rip off of the arcade game Circus (1977) by Exidy. So, they probably wouldn't want to pursue that one. Outlaw was an old Atari arcade game as well, but it's also very similar to other games such as Western Gun and Sheriff. Pac-Man was a pretty unique property though, so that must be why Atari was so keen to protect its console rights against copycats.

[@ztothepunk]

I had this game but somebody stole my entire atari and odyssey 2 collection

[@kcindc5539]

Holy crap this instantly transported me to 1981. Wow. I got an Odyssey II specifically because KC Munchkin was far superior to Atari’s heroically lame Pac-Man for the 2600 in 1982.

[@TwippyTwilight]

I had this system. I had a lot of fun with it.

[@mchenrynick]

:52 That TV commercial is for the FIRST Odyssey system.

[@pojr]

True. It seemed like a good idea to show an Odyssey 1 commercial, but might have been better if I showed an Odyssey 2 one instead.

[@TheZapstarNetwork]

HONEY, WAKE UP! NEW POJR VIDEO

[@pojr]

😂

[@cyberspere]

LOL

[@thedallastexan]

The dilemma with the lawsuit revolved around the lack of copyright laws regarding video games at the time. Nowadays, copyright law is much more defined regarding video games and other digital content. Another great video!

[@pojr]

True. No standard had been set with copyright when it came to video games.

[@RetroJack]

Interesting. So many people say that Phillips' first foray into gaming was the ill-fated CDi - thanks for the info!

[@Davescomicsandstuff]

I heard that the original name for "Pacman" was "ghosts n Gobblins"

[@Godric_71]

My friend had this console and we used to play this all the time. We used to play that cowboy game too.

[@AWalYT]

I'm not surprised litigation was brought upon them for being too similar. I have a hunch this probably would've been settled by precedence if Data East v. Epyx (Karate Games) or Capcom v. Data East (Fighting Games) had already happened...I guess some things just take time...

[@OldDistantHermit]

Bro is this pojr from GameFAQs? Nice to see your face pop up again, it's guwa :) hope you are doing well my friend

[@tufif]

I've still got a working odyssey 2 downstairs, along with a copy of kc munchkin!

[@gtssage]

I wish I still have mine. Memories.

[@Boriko.]

Amazing review. I think they made a substantial difference in the game to look and play different from Pacman but the centipede version was pretty amazing. I liked that one. I somewhere heard that Moyamoto wanted at some point patent the Super Mario Bros. game style. I'm not sure if true but that would be a tragedy in the making for everyone who made so many great games inspired by something.

[@hammerheadms]

I loved my Odyssey 2. K.C.'s Krazy Chase was one of my favorite games. Much better than the first game. Conquest Of The World was another stand out game on the console.

[@danaeckel5523]

A friend of mine had an Odyssey 2 and KC Munchkin while I had a 2600 and PacMan. I found KC to be much more of an enjoyable game. It was fast moving, and worked well within the specs of the machine. I honestly don't think it infringed on anything, and my the standards that was pointed out in the case the makers of 3rd person shooters would sue each other into oblivion.

[@Akira625]

Personally, I think that K.C. Munchkin is a better game than the 2600's port of Pac-Man. I remember being so disappointed when my dad bought Pac-Man for me and I played it, it was like some bizarre fever dream rendition of the arcade version.

[@PatrykdeRosa]

thanks for a very nice review! KC Munchkin was SO much better than the Atari 2600 Pacman and agreed the lawsuit was pretty lopsided considering how many differences the games have. i also agree many Odyssey² games are nicer than the Atari versions. just a very underrated and fun system i owned as a kid in the heyday of 2nd Gen consoles 😊

[@bellissimo4520]

In my opinion, KC Munchkin is the superior game, especially to the VCS Pacman. It is slick, gets superfast and is very addictive. Not to mention you have a ton of level-variations, and can even create your own (even though there's no way to save those creations).

[@PixelsNcreatureS]

I have this game and i never thought it was a pacman rip-off

[@BlueMSX.]

The Odyssey 2 has some pretty good software, and K.C Munchkin makes for a great story. Nice work Pojr!

[@pojr]

Thank you!

[@TyphinHoofbun]

I actually have an Odyssey 2. Kid me bought it at a garage sale because it was a "home computer" with a keyboard, and supposedly would let me learn how to program on it in BASIC. I didn't know you needed a BASIC cartridge, though, and I didn't have it. I only had a couple games for it, which were pretty boring and weak, unfortunately. "Speedway! / Spin-out! / Cryptologic!" was the only one I had for a while, but I also later picked up "Invaders from Hyperspace!", "UFO!", and "Showdown in 2100 A.D." Considering I'd already had an NES for a couple years by that point, I was... pretty disappointed. But, y'know, life. Never had KC Munchkin. I'm not super surprised that Atari was able to win on appeal. Copyright law did NOT know how to handle games for a while, initially. By modern law, KC Munchkin would not be considered infringing, I'm fairly sure. I believe it follows a similar standard to board games, where you can't copyright the "mechanics" of a game, but can copyright the "expression" of it. So, characters like Pac-Man and the ghosts could be protected, you can get in trouble for using the exact same maze, you could get hit for copying the music, but not "character eats dots in a maze". But as any lawyer will tell you, you never know when a judge is going to just rule against you for some reason.

[@Justin-Hill-1987]

"I guess K.C. Munchkin is not in Kansas City anymore..."

[@pojr]

😂

[@ryancraig2795]

I wonder if Commodore got sued for "Avengers" (a near perfect Space Invaders clone) or "Cosmic Cruncher", which was at least as similar to Pacman as this was.

[@TheDarkThunder]

They probably looked at Munchkin and thought: “This looks waaaay more fun than our Pac-Man, that’s gotta go!”

[@Black_Revue]

Magnavox Does what AtariDon't

[@gtssage]

ha

[@pojr]

In this case, yes lol

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Atari used to be king in the gaming industry back in the 70s and 80s when graphics were limited yet the gameplay became an innovation at the time, but with the _Video Game Crash of '83_ drastically affected the company, Atari walked so Nintendo can run.

[@grotgrusson5124]

I've been on a hunt for this console for years by now, with out any success, just to be able to play this game and Freedom Fighters. I know one of my many cousins had one back in the days, but I don't know if he still has it. 😐

[@Mrshoujo]

1980s Atari was very litigious in those days & Jack Tramiel was as much, so much so he initially funded Atari by suing over infringement with several companies & always won. It got to the point if you were served papers from Tramiel's Atari, you just gave up & settled.

[@tarstarkusz]

This was one of the worst legal rulings in video game history. KC Munchkin is absolutely not a Pac Man clone. There are superficial resemblances and that is about it.

[@jerkusclownstar]

Excellent channel

[@pojr]

Thanks!

[@cyberfennek]

Munchkin was genius you could make your own levels this made it a lot more fun than pacman

[@mattschehr163]

The odyssey came out in 1972

[@bltvd]

I remember in the early eighties having a friend who had a Odyssey 2 and a friend who had an Intellivision. Both consoles sucked but we would at least play the Odyssey 2 the Intellivision was something you turned on once and never again after dealing with the garbage controller and games.

[@joesshows6793]

How was/is Phillips involved in seemingly everything electronic??

[@LevitatingCups]

"inspired by", is the modern day term, though games are so much more complex its hard not to see something from title in another

[@cyberspere]

can you make a video about plok? also, I'd love to see the original conclusion style return!

[@desiv1170]

We were an O2 family and KC Munckin! was awesome! (I was more of a fan of UFO! tho...) That said, for today KC's Krazy Chase! is the best game on the system IMHO... Especially if you have The Voice module... I still think the court got this one wrong. KC was definitely PacMan inspired obviously, but I think it was different enough to not be just a copy. Looking at the PacMan clones in the arcade, some were also very similar but not copies; Piranha comes to mind... Atari was just mad that Magnavox beat them to the market. I get Atari suing, but I don't think they should have won...

[@MorreskiBear]

People get their panties in a bunch too easily. Forza? You already got Pole Position! LAWSUIT

[@VOAN]

Had Nintendo knew about Philips and their copycat past they wouldn't entrust them with the Mario and Zelda IPs in the 90s. That was Nintendo's only mistake and why garbage like Hotel Mario, Link: The Faces of Evil, Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon, and Zelda's Adventure exist. Hotel Mario was an Elevator Action clone, both Faces of Evil and Wand of Gamelon are Rastan clones, and Zelda's Adventure was a Crystalis clone since it used the bird's eye view similar to Crystalis all with awful quality. Also a shame to Atari for going after Magnavox against KC Muchkins, to this day that game remains exclusively on the Odyssey II.

[@lilylyons961]

At least the CD-i games got some legendary KZbin Poops!

[@billy6427]

There has been so many Pacman clones . Ntm Nowadays Some "Fans" Practically Justify Stealing Nintendo Character likeness and Sprites Assets in FanGames .

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

If KC Munckin was released before Pac-Man, Phillips should have sued Atari for stealing _their_ idea! Anyway, Phillips and Magnavox still exist to this day, as does Atari, though it is a shadow of its former self. (Phillips is many times larger)

[@ameuluvs]

Love ur community pojr❤❤

[@pojr]

Thank you!

[@tarstarkusz]

0:59 That is NOT an Odyssey 2, it's an Odyssey 1.

[@FaTBoYs_GaMInG_N_NoNsEnSe]

Awesome video brother

[@pojr]

Thank you!

[@FaTBoYs_GaMInG_N_NoNsEnSe]

@@pojr @FeralInferno sent me by the way

[@walkerj.7895]

I think LC munchkin does more than enough to differentiate from Pacman. Really cool game that’s potential was cut short due to this lawsuit

[@EURIPODES]

I had kc munchkin for the odyssey and pac man for the atari. I was definitely the coolest kid in the neighborhood 😎

[@slokoolbounz]

The thumbnail got me laughing!😂😂

[@Gloryzuki]

Atari was basically Nintendo before they went down on any bootleg Pac-Man witch-huntings.

[@SlendytubbiesII]

During that time they became modern Nintendo

[@classicamusementparks]

Munchman on the TI 99 4/A was better than both.

[@KabukiKid]

Yeah, crazy that Atari had any standing in suing over KC Munchkin. btw... it is easily a better game than the 2600 version of Pac-Man. I say this as someone who bought Pac-Man for the 2600 on the day it came out! I stood in line for two hours for that game. lol Yeah, I still played it until I had blisters, but I knew it wasn't great.

[@jasonz7788]

Thanks 👍

[@magnusdiridian]

If you make enough changes to a game, can you avoid copyright issues? If atari put out their version of pac man 2600 and called it atari man, I doubt namco would have sued

[@lordterra1377]

Whats with the serial k1lller smile? Scary...

[@kaiokendo]

How Atari avoid being dinner

[@kennyjohnson8148]

1:10 to 1:21 was sooo comfy, i could watch a whole video like this

[@Embargoman]

Please make a video of Korean rebranding Japanese consoles.

[@tarstarkusz]

The Odyssey 2 is VASTLY inferior to the 2600. It is not an improvement over the 2600 in any way but one and that is the presence of the keyboard. The KB could theoretically offer more in depth games. But that was in theory only. Though it had slightly more RAM, it had a far, far inferior video and sound chip and a much slower and less capable CPU. In fact, it isn't even a general cpu, it's a controller chip. It REALLY shows in the games, even the early games. The controller in the O2 is so weak the Chess game has a whole computer in a cartridge that hangs from a wire which attaches the cartridge to the computer module.

[@BachBetsy]

685 Arlo Mount

[@stevenedwards8353]

I'm confused. Isn't Pac-Man a Namco property?

[@Nelvinkumar]

Yes it is. Pacman is a Bandai Namco property.

[@pojr]

Yes, but Atari had the license to make home console versions of it.

[@julianborges1569]

Funny how much better the knock off was to Atari's pitiful pac port. At least their sequels were MUCH improved.

[@joeyfarris2543]

We all know that Magnavox became Magnetbox

[@cryptojihadi265]

After that steaming pile of shit "Pac man" game Atari produced, they've got no right to sue anyone. As shitty as that port was, they didn't need to waste the million dollars they paid for rights to produce the game on their platform.

[@JohnSegerclucka]

The Odyssey 2 had terrible graphics. It made the 2600 look like an HD console 😁😂. That being said, Atari's "Pac-Man" port was trash

[@Hi_bro078]

uhhh.. whh... what?

[@Most_Jeffinitely]

If it looks like pac man, eats like pacman, its pacman albeit with a little bit of a reskin

[@joeyfarris2543]

Too many ssssssssss

[@W4lmartbag]

When will you tell us the fact you use ai for your scripts?😏

[@PiTheDecimal]

He doesn’t use ai

[@W4lmartbag]

@@PiTheDecimal probably but theres some videos like the gems one where i can feel the script was made by a ai

[@PiTheDecimal]

@@W4lmartbag oh

[@iamhere490]

He doesn't

[@sosman64]

​@@W4lmartbagdo you have a third eye or something?unless you have concrete evidence you are wrong