ATSB Final Report C-130 Airtanker Crash Australia

[@jguo]

Greetings from Australia here. I watched this airtanker flying over my house to fight the fire in rural NSW back in the black summer in 2019/2020. There were many mistakes made during those months and the loss of this airtanker and her crew is among the biggest. My condolences to the families of the three heros.

[@Bluenoser613]

The professionalism and clear explanation and discussion of these events is absolutely top notch.

[@johnathanasiou9284]

Juan, I simply just don't get how your channel videos get demonetised. You don't play any music to infringe copyright apart from Bedrosian. You are a total professional & fantastic team player with other aviation sites ie Victor @ VAS Aviation & with people you collaborate & work with. You don't sensationalise like some mainstream "click bait" broadcast media seems to love doing these days. You pay proper respects to those who have lost their lives in aviation accidents & give their families & loved ones real explanations that people in the aviation industry deeply care & want to improve. You give proper credit where credit is due & more importantly, you impart vital information to both the aviation industry & general public why & how incidents occur but even more importantly imparting valuable information with an impeccable insight of a wealth of experience to save even more lives & champion aviation safety & excellence as a priority. Via your excellent videos, you may not realise but I believe you have saved the lives of countless pilots globally, countless people globally aspiring to be pilots & should be celebrated rather than getting unfairly smashed like this. I'd rather watch you Juan, but then maybe advertisers prefer trashy content of girls twerking & ASMR creators licking their microphones for clicks on Twitch. Keep on doing what you do Juan & please don't ever change

[@bobwilson758]

Damn John , well said sir ! Thank you , I appreciate Juan’s channel also - Much to learn / so little time -

[@markfryer9880]

How could a video like this be demonetised? This has to be one of the most sensible and somewhat dry channels on KZbin discussing Aviation safety matters and yet it takes hits?? Do some people object to the calm discussion of Aviation Incidents and the subsequent official investigation reports? Would they rather try to learn more about the same incident from a dramatised reconstruction on a made for drama documentary? Juan does a great job, but KZbin regulations leave me shaking my head in disbelief. Mark from Melbourne Australia

[@aboversite]

As a retired firefighter with 30 years service in Alberta as a boots in the ashes firefighter and as Fireboss on large fires (or Incident Commander in current terminology), I can say that the aircraft should never have been in that situation. The fire agency, as a matter of policy should never permit an aircraft to "lone wolf". The idea of "initail attack certified" is a flawed concept. Should never have been put in place. The tanker must be controlled by a bird dog who carries on board someone who represents the fire agency, not the contractor. It's a matter of incentive. There is insufficient incentive for the tanker pilot to stand down. He wants flight hours, the contractor wants flight hours. In my early years, I learned that the phrase "We fly at the pilots discretion" just wasn't good enough. Every one just needs to back off and appreciate what Juan said in his intro. The tanker will not put the fire out. It is a valuable aid to the firefighter when used correctly. Forget the cowboy mentality.

[@dbspecials1200]

Well put. I respect professionals who know their limitations and that of their equipment. safety is always first. a motorist should know when the roads are not safe for driving. a sailor should know when it's not safe to take a boat out. sometimes we get stuck on the fly with sudden changes, but this was not a case like that. it was what you described.

[@emerkamp1]

@@dbspecials1200 Sounded more like a lack of basic information being passed on to me, I can't see them even trying if wind condition was known. Then follow that by a lack of training to deal with shear. That emergency dump button should be 2nd nature like a heli's winch cable cutter

[@LindysEpiphany]

This is why its important to scrutinize these accidents. So that procedures and training are put into place to try and avoid another tragedy. Learning from mistakes is how progress is made.

[@stanleypotter6238]

He already said all of that.

[@ShaunHensley]

@@stanleypotter6238 he lent his credibility to Juan’s analysis

[@mosa4688]

Thanks for a great summary. I live in Cooma and the people of this area will never forget this day or this crew.

[@FutureSystem738]

I had a severe and unpredictable wind shear event landing to the North in Melbourne (Australia) about maybe ten years ago. It was just like a simulator ride, very close, and very very scary. I have no doubt whatsoever that had we done anything wrong, we would not have survived the encounter- it really was THAT close. Thank goodness for fabulous training that we were provided with at regular intervals.

[@jimgraham6722]

Thanks Juan. I live near where this occurred and remember the day of that tragic event well. On that afternoon the low level flying conditions were horrendous. Heavy smoke everywhere, over 40C, strong gusting north westerly winds, high rising terrain in area where the aircraft was operating. The DA was through the roof.

[@davidbee4515]

Fantastic work. Thanks, Juan.

[@bobwilson758]

Wow , there we have it ! Right from the point of the situation - Thank you Mr. Jim !

[@gracelandone]

I’ve been keen on the details of this accident since it occurred. Partly because I flew in and out of DFW at the time, partly because I was always relieved to fly the L1011 as opposed to the DC-10 at the time. I watched this entire Captain Van training video and learned a lot about this and like accidents I didn’t know. Thank you for posting this. I love that you always stress training. Your posts have empowered me to fly again after years of aerophobia, a lot of it based on narrowly missing a seat on AA 191 at ORD in 1979. After that, 6 yrs later, learning of DL 191 at DFW did not improve my frame of mind. But your physics based demystification of the Art of Flying has helped. Thank-you.

[@davegillespie3948]

I fly light twin turboprop aircraft in the UK and confirm that escape procedure is the exact same as you train for in the USA...it is the best for any pilot including GA you can follow. From your videos everyone can learn....thanks for highlighting the discipline required.

[@bat2293]

"If somebody had (done the thing) they might have just made it." Oh how many times have I seen that in a NATOPS accident investigation report. (former Marine KC-130 pilot) This tragic loss of life was avoidable. I sincerely hope this community learns from it. My condolences to their families.

[@leatherneck7476]

Semper Fi!

[@Just_a_Plane_motorcycle_rider]

As an ex RAAF loadie on C130 E/H/J who was based out off RIchmond (the base that the Coulson aircraft operated from in Oz) I can say that the loss of that aircraft and crew hit the Australian Herc community pretty hard. The RAAF has operated Hercs since 1958 and have just recently passed 850000 hours without loss so to see a herc lost with all crew in Oz was a very sobering experience , RIP and condolences to the family who now has to revisit the pain/loss with the release of the report

[@peejay1981]

I live under the landing approach and would regularly stop and watch them pass by. Even I feel it.

[@arielsfish]

The almighty!

[@virginiaviola5097]

The aerial fire-fighters are absolute heroes and do a tremendous job in very difficult conditions, high winds go hand in hand with bushfires, it’s a tragedy to have a crew and aircraft go down like this. Thanks for covering this. Cheers from 🇦🇺🐨🦘

[@lizj5740]

A sad story to start the day. RIP Colson crew. Thank you, Juan, for all you do to promote aircraft safety.

[@Rick5040]

Excellent video and discussion of the issues involved in the loss of N134CG. Thanks for your dedication in advancing aviation safety.

[@scsteinbrecher]

Excellent commentary on a complex subject. Living in the Sierra, we watch these folks fly a lot. NOT an easy task, as your young female guest explained a few weeks ago. Thanks!

[@RegCoulter]

Juan - I always appreciate the information you provide,and wish to thank you for all of the additional work you do to make these videos. By that I mean, having additional ‘slides’ of reference material, as well as ‘getting your hackles up’ to remind/warn pilots of the essential basics - flying the wing, angle of attack VS air speed. I cannot tell you the number of times I have had non-pilots try to correct me when I make the statement that a wing can be stalled at any speed and any pitch angle, rather than angle of attack. This was a tragedy that did not need to occur. I am retired now, but do recall in my younger and bolder days as a pilot, coming near to taking risks that should be, and are, considered unacceptable. Thank heavens I did not. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old - bold pilots. My flight instructors were always repeating that mantra and I think it saved my bacon many times.

[@RobertJones-sb1if]

Thanks Juan! You deliver important information even if YT is afraid of triggering someone's fragile emotions.Keep it coming!

[@shopart1488]

Reporting you will never get from MSM Great Job, Juan

[@markhwirth7718]

Great presentation Juan ! As a well Seasoned Hang Glider Pilot with over 2000 hrs in Hang Gliders , I got very Familiar with the wind over the terrain. You are always evaluating what the possible scenarios are going to be ! This experience was my first love in aviation and prove to be very valuable as an airline pilot . One Thing for sure, when your close to the terrain the wind is on your nose in a Hang Glider ! You can’t afford a down wind landing in a Hang Glider, It’s pretty tough on the landing gear, Your legs !

[@glennwatson]

Sad situation. Australia and the US have had a healthy relationship for years in regards to sharing fire fighting resources given our fire seasons are opposite each other.

[@davidstuart4489]

Juan - another outstanding analysis. Bravo Zulu! This is the third or fourth of your videos I've viewed over the past couple of weeks. They have ALL been outstanding! So I have a recommendation for you - Get yourself booked on "Theater In The Woods" at Oshkosh next year, and get yourself in front of the CAP kids and aspiring pilots. I don't know if you'd be compensated - maybe hook up with a few flight schools or Embry Riddle, etc. But youngsters who aspire to careers at the yoke need to hear you. KZbin isn't enough. Live interaction is so much more valuable.

[@blancolirio]

Good idea! Thanks David!

[@jeffreynolds3848]

David & Juan - better still, if this goes off at Oshkosh next year, properly record the event (esp. the Q&A!) and post on KZbin in a format acceptable to YT. This will ensure the product of the event can ‘live on’ & provide income to do more of the same for the benefit of aspiring pilots, GA as well as firefighting aviators...

[@mattbox87]

That Warren VanderBurgh lecture is fantastic! I recognise tips on controlling roll with rudder at stall/near stall in there, which were also pointed out in another really worthwhile blancolirio vid. Love the work!

[@mattbox87]

I've carried on with those VanderBurgh lectures and they are TOTALLY worthwhile. Real precious relics, especially for sim nuts like me who don't go for contemporary paid training.

[@irondarknessdarkness8900]

best reporting on aircraft on youtube.

[@steveunwin830]

Some really detailed and valuable information here. Thanks Juan for all your work.

[@jamescole1786]

8/31/22.Australian C-130 FireTanker crash...Australian ATSB final report....Juan, Another great passionate professional pilot analytical video with tons of indepth info/procedures/wind-shear at rear quarter tail area⚙ while at low 'drop' altitude flying over rising terrain...you give fantastic detail analysis as only a experienced C-130 pilot yourself can deliver. Your heart & sole 'glows-in-the-dark' 😇on this accident reporting. Great job Juan!👏👍👍👍👍😊🙂

[@FutureSystem738]

Thanks Juan, great summary, sad story! I hope lessons learned will save future lives.

[@jhmcglynn]

Great video. I built a RANS S-19 with a DYNON D100 and an AOA indicator. My next project is to integrate it with my intercom so I get an audio warning as well. Our local airport gets a lot of USMC COBRA and OSPREY helicopter traffic. Your recent video of the Cessna 120 upset by a passing Huey was a great eye opener.

[@nancychace8619]

Thank you for sharing. Sorry for the loss. RIP.

[@robertmainerd7145]

Very clear and thorough coverage of this report. Thank you Juan.

[@Arrowjock2]

Thanks for the very detailed analysis , Juan! It greatly assists the understanding as to how it happened.

[@ronaldglider]

As a glider pilot we always aim to stay away from the lee side of a slope, even at relatively low wind speeds. This of course implies we know wind direction at all times, so we continually gauge that. Wind direction in mountainous terrain can vary a lot (spatially and temporary), so we don't always get it right. The only thing that saves you is having excess energy, ie. excess speed when flying close to terrain. It is a very uncomfortable feeling when all of a sudden all control pressures disappear and you feel like falling out of the sky.... You make a great point in your excellent video: Don't fly into lee close to terrain with wind gusts that can rob your airspeed instantaneously. Did the lead-plane pilot communicate to the C-130 why he decided to not go?

[@blancolirio]

Not directly to the C-130. Only to RFS-was NOT passed onto C-130 crew .

[@ronaldglider]

@@blancolirio that is really sad...

[@shenandoahhills7263]

On modern airliners, there will normally be an aural announcement of "Windshear, Windshear". The escape maneuver is almost universal as described and calls for flying to the "mustache" which are the pitch command bars. The configuration is not changed for 2 reasons. 1.) retracting the flaps can increase the speed at which the aircraft stalls, and 2.) retracting the gear will in many cases cause the gear doors to open which will increase the drag while the gear cycles up. There is no time to attempt to lower the drag, this is extreme flying close to the ground, where a crash would likely be eminent should the proper procedures not be followed.

[@weaselman24]

Those guys put the work in during that fire season. It was truly hell and the efforts of those crews won't be forgotten.

[@kymw7833]

JUAN YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF AVIATIONIS TRULY INCREDIBLE LISTENING TO YOU TALK ABOUT THIS STALL EFFECT AND EVERYTHING ELSE I CAN SEE WHY YOU GUYS NEED PHYSICS TO UNDERSTAND ALL THIS ,I CAN SEE I DREAMT OF BEING A PILOT BUT THE MATHS AND PHYSICS WOULD HAVE LEFT ME STUMPED I THINK YOU PILOTS ARE VERY SPECIAL PEOPLE STAY SAFE MATE AND ALL US PASSENGERS WILL BE SAFE TO CHEERS KYM ADELAIDE

[@johnslaughter5475]

Thank you, Juan. As always, let us pray that a tragic loss will save lives in the future. Any time something like this happens, my mind flashes back to the 2001 Daytona 500 and the loss of Dale Earnhardt. His death was preventable had he been wearing the HANS device. NASCAR mandated the use afterwards.

[@Mustang00007]

Thanks for that Juan, good report.

[@jimberg2926]

This crash hit home to me. I live in Great Falls, Montana. The pilot was also a pilot for my local Air Guard Unit.

[@rickdemorgan8951]

As a retired Air Guard member I helped recover part of the crash of the Dean Paul Martin F-4 incident. I also research the history on Ian Macbeth and found he had 1800 hours as a navigator. That throws up a yellow flag, considering that my son had 4000 hrs as a flight engineer./ 2000 combat as a AC130. FE. Your fellow pilot was't even in the same league as my son. Too your buddy cost my son his life.

[@jonclassical5710]

Glad you are back home safe and relaxing.......Thanks for your great vlogs Juan....I actually had my first R/T on Delta with NO issues this week...maybe the world will survive!!!!

[@bobb2183]

Great report these bushfires were some of the worst, widespread and devastating in the recent history of New South Wales. All the fire fighting services were stretched to the limit and fatigued. My thoughts are with the families and friends of these men who were doing their best to protect life and property.

[@RwP223]

Pretty dangerous situation, the pilot chose to go partially downwind and it has a sad ending sorry to hear it could be one of us in our own accident story, stay vigilant my friends.

[@markerickson4273]

Thank you Capt. Browne

[@danmcbride6258]

I really enjoy your reports. Your Flying experience coupled with your Lead Plane training, make you an expert when analyzing these incidents. I learn something every time I view your reports.

[@jamesgovett3225]

Thanks for elaborating on the ATSB report, very informative, as an Aussie I have wondered why our Federal or state government (s) have not invested in larger fixed wing aircraft over a bit of a rag tag bunch of choppers with buckets operated by privateers as apart from the much needed converted airliners and Hercules from the US & Canada etc, but as the majority of our Aussie population live on the Nth Eastern to Sth Eastern Coast of Australia close the Pacific Ocean and large lakes and reservoirs, I have always wondered why our country have not invested in a versatile, purpose built fire fighting aircraft the likes of say the Canadair CL 415 or even CL 215 super scoopers as surely with having a fleet of these available would be a No Brainer? But there again I can remember Australia’s CSIRO hiring a Douglas DC-4 fire bomber from America or somewhere for evaluation back I think in the early 1970’s with retardant and though the final report was positive about them, Victoria states country fire authority and others said that they couldn’t do and were no more effective than what the firefighters & choppers we’re not capable of doing, how very wrong they were!

[@NicolaW72]

Thank you very much! Yes, in the military you will easily fly more the desk than the aircraft when you´re upgrading.

[@markfryer9880]

I am no pilot but it appears to me that the pilot in charge was concentrating on the Where of his drop and forgot to consider the How of his drop and in doing so failed to maintain a basic head into the wind approach during the drop. He was circling down in a natural left-hand circuit and went down for the drop with the wind on his tail, when he should have enlarged the cross wind leg and flown down wind before a left-hand turn into the wind for the drop. Should the crew have also kept the flaps at 100% until they were above a safe altitude? My condolences to the families of the crew. Mark from Melbourne Australia

[@glencoddingtonacs]

Thanks Juan I love your analysis. I’m a pilot but you put it in better context than offical reports. I think 2 years ago you were spot on with the cause and lack of Birddog and your analysis. I would like to know how the communication works in the US as this seemed to be a factor that the crew didn’t know other aircraft rejected the task. I read the report and it seems the Cooma fire centre didn’t even request the tanker. So that means the fire service might not be able to handle flight communication. Is there a system that can be like a radio notam (warnings) maybe on the same system as flight following? Aircraft here in NSW use a state ops channel to report flight following every half hour could they also get warnings on that same channels they are on? Keep up the good work Juan.

[@stephen1711]

Why are you getting demonetized?.. that's what I want to know. I've now heard you mention this at least a couple of times recently and quite frankly, this is disturbing to hear. Of the 70 some odd places I subscribe to.. your videos mean more to all of humanity that puts their pink little bodies in any flying machine and trusts that flying is safe, or pleasurable. Your channel is an irreplaceable resource to aviation safety and deserves profound respect. KZbin needs to either back off, or go jack off. As an ATP, FE and part 107 UAS aviator.. please press on with force, pushing back against KZbin's BS. That goes for all of us, by what ever means we find we can push back. Keep up the superb work you do. It is so appreciated by countless others far beyond all your subscribers.

[@octagonPerfectionist]

it’s all about advertisers! youtube themselves are only doing what the advertisers want. i find it kind of messed up that important and completely legit educational videos like this get demonetized but “family vlogging” channels that exploit children are totally fine but that’s just the world we live in i guess. basically advertisers don’t like advertising next to content that talks about people dying or disasters happening (among many other things they don’t like)

[@othername1000]

Well I'd mentioned that it was possibly because of the r word and that comment disappeared. Possibly because I used a term describing a noun- which is used to induce a situation in which other processes such as fire (or free and open speech) are slowed or snuffed out. Fire ret..... something.

[@smiffy1947]

It’s a strange thing, but there still seem to be adverts on Juan’s videos that he says are de-monetised. I have no reason to disbelieve him so if that’s not double standards and profiteering by KZbin I really don’t know what is!

[@ShaunHensley]

Because corporations want to push mindless newstainment. Period.

[@ThisHandleFeatureIsStupid]

@@smiffy1947 I have no idea what the situation is with this particular channel, but ads can be placed by third-parties as well. It mostly happens when copyrighted content is included in a video - the copyright owner places ads - but there are other situations where it could happen too.

[@hondatuner5156]

I have been through 3 wildlifes in the last 4 years in california " starting with paradise, then coffee creek, then willow creek... I'm not talking about walk away on foot fires, it's a get on a dirtbike and ride 55mph through an inferno fires. This honda CRF has saved life 3 times now

[@AquaMarine1000]

Thanks Juan, sobering stuff.

[@oldcoastie2637]

Thanks for another great video, can you share why YT has demonetized (demonized) your content, which is of course crazy. Keep up the good work.

[@michaelharper4989]

My retired pilot friend, Joe Amos, told me of flying the Delta 191 profile on the simulator. He said he was one of the few pilots who successfully flew out of the down burst. Joe flew for Delta.

[@shenandoahhills7263]

Many of the lessons learned from the crash of Delta 191 at DFW in 1985 have been incorporated into modern windshear avoidance and recovery. Stowing the speed brake came primarily from American Airlines flight 965 going into Cali Columbia in 1995. They failed to stow the speed brake while attempting to climb after a "terrain, Terrain" warning. In the Delta crash I believe that they failed to disconnect the auto-throttles whereupon the thrust levers retarded unexpectantly at a very critical moment.

[@vk2ig]

Very sad incident. These people came over here to help us out in our hour of need, and they didn't get to go home. :( RIP, and deepest condolences to their families and loved ones.

[@lohikarhu734]

Originally, I had theorized, based on the wind conditions, that a sudden tailwind might have reduced airspeed so much that it experienced a stall....

[@Hawkcrom]

Defiantly mountain wave scenario, wave goes up and down , combine that with leeward sink off the ridge and tailwind . Mountain wave be present as little as 1000 feet AGL . Stronger the wind the greater the chance of wave

[@davidclemens1578]

Google / KZbin lack the concept of context. They make a lot of money off of your videos and I'm sure you are constantly inquiring to them what in your videos alerts them to either remove them or defund them. You would think with the money that they make they would have an ability to look at the library of KZbinrs such yourself and see that videos are purely informational and educational and that you're not a threat. Then you would think they would have an ability to quickly evaluate an alert because of some video or some word you use and determine from your past videos that there's no reason to punish you by either removing your video or demonetizing you. I hope you are going on to other platforms so that we may watch them without any censorship. Keep doing what you're doing.You and Dan help many viewers understand why Airlines do things the way they do and why we as passengers have to be patient when we fly. Oh I did also want to say, because of my arthritis I use voice typing and in this message alone I've had to correct about 20 of Google's typos. Some of them are from my inability to speak clearly but most of them are from not understanding the context of what I say in a sentence. I think they should expand their vocabulary of the library of the English language so that fewer mistakes are made. This is where the time should be invested rather than trying to tell us how to think and punishing us when we don't agree.

[@IRQ1Conflict]

Have you considered uploading to Rumble as well?

[@johnslaughter5475]

Did you see that the final report on the mid-air collision over Lake Coeur d'Alene came out? It was on the news up here. Pilot error.

[@rustyrobinson8027]

You're the best thanks again

[@Blacksheep1968]

Very interesting report. Nice work

[@beedonn9260]

I have found myself in windshear scenarios just a few times. But I guarantee you when I got on the ground I needed to change my underwear. Very scary. Thanks Juan appreciate it good job of explaining..

[@Tiger313NL]

Your videos are always so informative, Juan. Thank you for these! Have you seen the video of a United 777-200 rejecting take-off at 170km/h, at AMS/EHAM due to smoke in the cabin? Thought of you for a minute, Juan. :)

[@joemehere1151]

Thanks Juan. It's so sad that KZbin demonetizes these videos. Deplorable! It is like not monetizing a wildlife video because a lion eats an animal!

[@Dilley_G45]

Do not count on yt for anything

[@ThisHandleFeatureIsStupid]

@@Dilley_G45 Except getting shittier. KZbin is excellent at reducing the quality of its service. 👌

[@charlesstorrs194]

Talk to some hang gliders. Ridges will often set up a big rotary system when the wind overtops like this.

[@NicolaW72]

Indeed. In Switzerland this weather phenomenon contributed not long ago heavily to the crash of an ancient JU-Aircraft with 20 fatalities.

[@Danstaafl]

I bet that low pressure spike you cover at 21:00 (13.15.29) was a rotor. I used to skydive right under the Tehachapi mountains down in Cal City.. it concerns me this crew chose to fly this profile w/o someone putting a gun to their heads.. Collectively. This was cocky at best.. I think anyways..

[@daveaver]

Non pilot here. If he had attacked the line in an opposite direction, would the quartering head wind been a better decision?

[@kiwidiesel]

Operating that low on the lee side of a mountain range or elevated terrain is not conducive to a long life in wind like that. I have done a lot of mountain flying here in New Zealand and even air surfed at 12000ft the standing waves 5 miles off the coast of south island at night running frieght to christchurch. big wind is no joke.

[@my-yt-inputs2580]

Juan another video you might do on this incident is to compare it with the MAFFS 07 (NC Guard) crash in South Dakota back in 2012. Similar weather issues. Lessons learned for this one and not carried forward to Coulson?

[@44NorthWyo]

I’d like to see that also

[@danielchurchill9004]

Juan thank you sir!

[@TyphoonVstrom]

Juan, how effective is the horizontal stabiliser on a C-130 at lower speeds? Is an instant 20-25kt reduction in air speed over the tail going to cause any radical pitch moment?

[@CaptainRon13]

IA qualifiedor not, it’s criminal that tanker 134 did NOT know that the assignment had been rejected, turned down, by other resources!!!

[@erwinschmidt7265]

Juan - Microburst/Windshear events most always sad affairs, except for NWA DC9 in mid-'90s on appr to G.R. MI. Spotted liner sitting still after MDOT PU swatted by huge downdraft that sped trk up 55 to 85 on EB I-96. Saw liner, slid out window to sit on sill, swerved 39' back & forth till Capt fingered it out & went full gas/flaps, gear up, slight nose down, instant flat plummet into woods w/heavy smoke! Glanced back in tears, but liner slowly rose from woods w/oak limbs stuck in belly. Met Capt by chance NOV '96 at TPA Pilots Lounge, & bigmouthed his actions to story of woe, as had forgotten order of life saving measures he had used. Capt PO'd but when found out I was MDOT PU driver, I was invited to sit at table w/Capt & 3 other liner Pilots. Found out Capt had no radio/intercom, & controls mooshi, so flew E. low & slow towards Lansing, turned around headed back to G.R., waggled wings to give me thanks, gave himself clearances to approach GRR, performed best nice long landing of his life, taxied to Gate, and shut down Aircraft. Still no radios, so slid down small staircase for late luggage, glanced back for that beautiful swept up vee of the wings, but they were bowing down near ground. (upon further review, main wingspar had 5 breaks in it) Next, he was pullin' oak limbs from belly, but heard, "Click, Click" of big ole GRPD City Cop's bracelets. Capt told under arrest for Evidence Tampering, Leaving Scene of Accident, and Joy Riding Airplane. Next, he was dragged in front of his deplaned passengers scaring the hell out of 'em on way to Capt's initial questioning by FAA, NWA, & GRPD. FAA jerked his Certs, Capt got his tickets from GRPD, & NWA suspended him indefinably! (Investigation initially thrown off scent when NTSB given errant cert from MDOT no trucks in area 'as only checked local PU's, NWS gave errant blanket cert no windshear in area. Hate wastin' your time Juan, but I gotta know if this sorta crap ever pulled on you Piloting liners? Also as possible biness for blancolirio channel, you might be able to wrassel Original and '97 Re-opened Accident/Incident reports out of NTSB. You might find documents on verboten list, but it was only to prevent Big AL my Project Engineer from killing me if ever found out I had driven' "his" truck in that fashion. He had already caught hell when Material & Testing claimed the 8 - Asphalt Testing Kits I brought back had been homogenized! 5-7-16 Big Al cashed in his chips, so you could just search "Alton Houghton Lake Michigan", make copy of the 5-7-16 Obit, show them copy of my comment to your video, and advise NTSB you're most welcome to info as retired & new 10-20 is Lake Alfred FLA, (that means you can find me by search)! Hope this might help you out in some way to show your followers how important fractions of a second are in a windshear event!! Also, as Airliner Pilot, you might see if elbows could be rubbed & NW Airlines Pilot found that saved all those souls as Capt said he had full load and entire Cabin Crew severely injured as had been checking belts, so there might be some interest in this. Remember, if Capt still flyin' he might be wearing Delta Uniform as they swallowed up NW Airlines hook line & sinker!! Hope this helps you out!

[@erwinschmidt7265]

Juan - This is deal mentioned couple times before, but omitted exact ID info, as MDOT Prog Engnr would have augured me in if found out an Ahole Seasonal had driven "his" PU like insane ape! Just found out Big Al passed away 5-7-16, so w/o fear & now in 70's I'll just wait for scheduled turn w/Grim Reaper! Enjoy!

[@dougscott8161]

As a former student pilot of 50+ years, with no heavy time, I have to ask why continue to fly a clockwise pattern when the wind has shifted, especially when it also invites causing an tailwind component during and following the drop, inviting windshear into rising terrain. Thank you, Jaun for your clear unbiased and understandable reports every time.

[@gregmarchegiani6656]

Terrain was a factor for the escape with a run in course northbound

[@bobwilson758]

Agree Doug ! Nobody has said that except you - I thought it … but …

[@ShooterReadyStandBy]

Here in the US they use NIMS-ICS Incident Command System. There would of been an air boss overlooking the big picture. Do they have a similar system down under. This probably could have been avoided with a robut command structure in place.

[@lizj5740]

*robust

[@grahamstevenson1740]

Very well explained Juan. What do you think about the guys who sent them out there ?

[@occyman]

After watching the video again I am wondering if the crew also had an issue contributing from briefly being in like IMC conditions from flying in smoke?

[@arshad8170]

Rest In Peace the deceased pilots. May the force be with their families.

[@d.t.4523]

Good luck sir. 👍

[@MajorHavoc214]

23:47 Don't forget about a LAPSE drop, you often see the same problems with it except for the terrain slope.

[@johnmoruzzi7236]

I'm not sure I agree with this apparent focus on Windshear as the primary cause... there's no evidence apart from what was implied by interpreted cockpit altitude /pressure information. Certainly no need to introduce the term Microburst which is associated with thunderstorm conditions e.g. Delta L1011 at DFW. The terrain encouraged the left turn into a partial tailwind just as they would reduce flaps and increase bank but they had done 2 trial circuits just previously (at different altitudes I believe) so they understood the conditions at the time...

[@TyphoonVstrom]

You misunderstand a few important points. Turbulence and shear become worse closer to the ground as the terrain shadow extends further away from the terrain closer to the ground. This may have been a factor in the pilots considering the final pass as safe. The wind was gusting severely at the time, try losing 20kts of wind at 120kts on anything and tell me there will be no effect on climb performance.

[@mooman351]

awesome video as always, can someone explain the prop lock issue mentioned? what can happen if you just jam the throttles home?

[@bobwilson758]

Yes , Jamie - I never heard of that “prop lock “ thing either …? To the wood !

[@Tiger313NL]

Thanks!

[@howardnielsen6220]

Thank You

[@peterbustin2683]

Juan, do the winds get erratic because of the fire, and make the task extremely dangerous, or have I got it wrong ?

[@blancolirio]

They can, but these winds were bad enough on their own.

[@peterbustin2683]

@@blancolirio They are very brave people, to say the least.

[@prussiaaero1802]

Make no mistake US friends, Aussies thank the US and Canadian firebombing heros for helping us every summer. This was a real bad one.

[@truegret7778]

I understand there is rising terrain to the north of of the fire zone, but wouldn't they want to fly to the north-west for the drop, to avoid having a tailwind? If only they had shared the info that other pilot(s) were not going up. Condolences to the families.

[@Balance2097]

I did read there was a koala rehabilitation enclosure where injured or burned koala bears were kept and nursed back to health. This may have been what they were trying to save. This koala enclosure along with many koalas were destroyed.

[@Sreybk]

Juan, I am sure near your neck of the woods density altitude probably factors in a lot during fire season; I am sure they brief all this stuff beforehand, but have there been accidents because of miscalculations?

[@slartybarfastb3648]

What other business model could get away with "demonetizing" other people's hard work, except KZbin? It's going to be a great day when something better comes along and KZbin goes the way of Blockbuster Video.

[@StrongDreamsWaitHere]

Trying to climb and turn at low energy is a mistake, isn't it? What if they just flew straight after the drop and climbed, delaying any turns until they were at a safer altitude for the turn?

[@blancolirio]

Too low, terrain.

[@StrongDreamsWaitHere]

@@blancolirio They were surrounded by rising terrain? Even climbing straight ahead would have resulted in a crash? That sounds like terrain they should not have been flying in at all, regardless of winds.

[@artisanautobody3931]

I believe they had to turn to avoid terrain.

[@marianaldenhoevel7240]

What causes the retardant to become ineffective above certain wind speeds? Is it just the difficulty of delivering it accurately?

[@sootikins]

Drift. It paints a wider but thinner swath than was intended.

[@blancolirio]

blows apart.

[@Stanley_Furley]

Please do not discount the hidden "implied" pressure Contractors receive to get that bird in the air...............just saying.

[@bobwilson758]

Sounds like captain hotdog to me . Good report ! Thank you sir .

[@tonymcflattie2450]

Yes! Love captain warren!

[@alangentry6295]

Is it it's the captain's call if he goes or not when he goes out on these missions

[@lebojay]

When I worked with flight paramedics in Canada, yes, it was always up to the pilot in command to accept or decline the mission. Putting pressure of any kind on the pilot was absolutely prohibited, and the pilots would also be given zero information about the patient so that they wouldn’t be influenced by that. I’m not certain if American firefighters are the same in that respect, but I expect they are.

[@markmiller3279]

@@lebojay That's interesting, and sounds like a sensible procedure. Sad if the patient doesn't make it, of course, but that's fate.

[@LindysEpiphany]

Demonitized for what? I don't understand why reports of airplane accidents would be a reason for demonitization. This is news that should be told. Those who don't like info about plane crashes don't have to watch. Its very clearly titled what is being reported. KZbin allows some obnoxious content that is offensive and nasty but won't allow real news about a plane accident as content! Nonsensical for sure!

[@crimony3054]

They're going peak stupid to cover for their misconduct in the 2020 election cycle. YT's folks are so bad, we may never know if it was intentional or not.

[@markkeller8915]

I don't have much to add, however some thoughts of human factors that maybe be informative albeit speculative, what could be going on in the cockpit environment, from my experiences, ex-tanker copilot S-61. In no particular order. Mental adjustment of difference in risk tolerance of contract operators vs military. The flight engineer, very low time, and co-pilot low time may have been adjusting to risk level, maybe not fair, but weak pilot vs. strong pilot is always a factor in cockpit crew dynamics, along with confirmation bias with high time PIC and low time ex-military crew. As ex-military NVG and NOE certified PIC and Flight lead for several years, I was constantly surprised by risk tolerance of Contract employer and PIC's vs Institutional Flight operations of military. Another thought, was engineer/ copilot workload in the 10 sec pre-crash event, vs simultaneous tasks to re-configure tank dump rearm switch's and change of prop pitch for full or increased power. A re-enactment of possible crew stations, and needed physical movements to change switches, (having been pinned myself more than once in a turbulent cockpit) reaching a switch or manual release proved physical impossible for a few seconds. So crew tasking Overlap of tank dump rearm task, and assist with prop lock mitigation amongst the three crew (could mean in speculation) two crew attempting the same task, or just tunnel vision or assessment time by inexperience (for the conditions) by crew. Certainly crew gel was not complete with this mission, so over communication possible or degraded communication by event: turbulence, noise, or other factors impinging on new crew. Other thing was aircraft flight. The CAS and Groundspeed change delta, seems the flaps help acceleration groundspeed as tailwind event occurred, if 10 knots, must have been very significant tailwind.

[@markkeller8915]

A couple of gut feeling of contributions : boundary layer heating, many accident cause due to lift loss in pinnacle operations. Having trained new crew, I'd say no go solely based on first solo mission of flight engineer in the forecast and actual weather, not a full working cockpit would be a speculation of concern.

[@13699111]

Very good comment

[@barrydysert2974]

Thank you. i needed this in-depth analysis !:-) 💜🙏⚡️

[@markkeller8915]

@@barrydysert2974 very welcome, cockpit culture has occupied a lot of my thinking over the years.

[@fToo]

what happens if your video get de-monetised after a few days ... do you still collect the revenue from all the adverts for the time before it was de-monetised ?

[@blancolirio]

No, and these last two were pulled completely off the air by YT!

[@fToo]

@@blancolirio Wow. So YT pocket 100% of the revenue from those adverts - and I think some of those videos were up for a couple of weeks. How can YT justify that?

[@Grandpa82547]

@@fToo They can't. They are in it for the money.

[@JSFGuy]

Well that took a while.

[@jrprimo5372]

Can you, or have you told us why u tube demonetized you videos?

[@Grandpa82547]

You tube is more interested in being "politically correct" than in telling the truth. People get killed every day, often by their own mistakes. You tube wants to pretend that bad stuff never happens, so that the next guy in line jumps right off the same cliff.

[@crimony3054]

What's the view on knowing whether other people have refused to fly due to weather? Organizations need pilots to fly. Refusing to flying because others have refused to go supplants their judgement for a pilot's own. Once it becomes reckless to fly when another pilot has declined to fly, then any pilot can informally shut down an operation due to weather. The safer-than-thou process begins, and anyone who wants to fly is considered an unsafe pilot. The NTSB covered this with helicopter air ambulances. Pilots aren't required to fly if they feel it's unsafe, and the FAA offers its opinion on whether it feels conditions are safe. When the FAA says it's safe to fly and there's a patient that has to get to a hospital in an emergency, how does a pilot decide whether or not to fly. The NTSB's apparent view is that it's still the pilot's choice. I agree, but if you're operating an air ambulance, get-there-itis is the fundamental and legitimate need driving the business model. The NTSB acted like air ambulances were weekend hobbyists. Or maybe they didn't want to edge the FAA's views on safe conditions into a process that will eventually be tested in litigation. Fascinating dynamics at work when a dying patient needs a trip to the regional ER through an ice storm!

[@denniswise1460]

He looks like a young Harrison Ford