Audio Engineers React to "Yesterwynde" by Nightwish!

[@PatrickMusilek]

***WARNING*** The music starts around the 37 minute mark, so make sure to go to that timestamp if you don't want to hear any of the talk beforehand! Also, this is NOT a positive video where we gush about how amazing Nightwish is for 3 hours (though we do talk about how awesome Nightwish is quite a bit throughout the video) so if you do not want to hear out HONEST opinions please save yourself some time and don't watch this.

[@YoJimBo851610]

Thanks for your honest critique of this album. I think the mastering in Dolby Atmos might really affect the mix, but im not an audio engineer lol. Honestly I still love this album!!

[@lanzarlaluna]

Patrick, someone mentioned it in another comment, but the channel Nightwish Arena has made some remasters with boosted vocals. They sound really good.

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@lanzarlaluna i will check it out!

[@renejensen7799]

I think the mix is perfect!! now i listened to the album from start to finish over 20 times, and i come to the conclusion, that instead of just getting Floor, or a guitar, volumed up, you get a wall of sound, and this is important for the grand journey this album actually is..

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@renejensen7799 i need to listen a few more times, but Im not sure I would ever get to that point.

[@DejVidBF3]

Before watching: For me this is their most experimental and fun album ever. Also I'm sure you won't like vocal mix but for me it's all about orchestral parts in this album. After reading the lyrics I can hear vocals good enough.

[@PatrickMusilek]

Fair enough, and I think the orchestral elements sound really great this album. I heard some of the "orchestral versions" that come with the 2 disc version and if you haven't heard those I highly recommend checking them out!!!

[@SokolRock]

"For me this is their most experimental and fun album ever." I agree, with "Yesterwynde" they really had fun breaking all the rules. They basically wrote a symphonic prog album.

[@ImmortalDecember]

@SokolRock Yes exactly! "Symphonic prog" is what I realized I've always been yearning for them to lean towards for forever. Human Nature was a big step in the right direction, and now Yesterwynde an even bigger one!

[@Requinix17]

I agree with the criticisms about the mix, but maybe because I'm not a pro audio engineer, it doesn't really bug me that much :). Once I learned the lyrics I can sing along in my head and it's fine and still very enjoyable. But yes if it were up to me I would prefer Floor's vocals to be turned up a few notches in the mix

[@karihaapanen7520]

Suddenly the world is full of better producers and mixers than Tuomas Holopainen and Mikko Karmila etc. I've been filled with music all my life (longer than yours) and I totally understand and love how and why this album sounds like it does. Awesome job Nightwish. As usual.

[@Kenjames10]

Songwritingwise it's a masterpiece album. I'd rank it as their 4th best in that regard. I can only imagine how great these songs sound live! The production sure as hell takes away from the album enjoyment a little bit.

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@Kenjames10 I absolutely agree! And I know for me production takes a much more important role than I think it does for most people when they listen to music. So for me this album was disappointing overall because of the production, however as you said I think the songwriting was absolutely fantastic! I loved all of the melodies, the keyboard parts, the guitar riffs, and especially on this album The orchestral parts as well!

[@lekalla]

Amazing production and mixing and mastering.

[@Kenjames10]

@@PatrickMusilek Yeah the first things that came to my while listening to the album were pretty much the same things you pointed out in the video. You breaked it down very well. It's always very interesting to hear your thoughts on the production side of things.

[@torpitsanas9010]

There is also official Atmos version. What band is say it is band decision that vocals are not front this album. Idea is give all sound parts same attention. It is maybe more close classic music/opera mixing than normal pop/rock. Last word in the mixin was Tuomas. He also is main producer. What i understand he was lot been place when mix was doing.

[@scwebb]

The Atmos version is amazing. No idea what went with the stereo mix 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@chrism2964]

Perfume of the timeless has been changed since the single was released. You can see it if you open it in Audacity that its not the same. Its wider and more clear on the album. It was very crushed and muddy, even the atmos version, as a single a few months back. Still not really sure why they chose this mixing style for the album, but it is what it is. Hopefully we'll have a great live version at some point.

[@jeffbruno847]

I've been a long time Nightwish fan and it's refreshing to see a reaction where the opinions aren't beholden to the Nightwish Army.

[@jabymartinez5608]

I watched your reaction all the way and enjoyed it, but when you say "This is a metal band with orchestral elements, not the other way around, this is wrong" In the 2:18:00 aprox, I find it kinda funny because I think they know better than you and me what they are and want. This is not rant, I'm only saying. I watched an interview with Troy in which he said they wanted to let everything sound in a kinda similar volume, so you don't have a guitar or a singer with "protagonism" instead they wanted everything to sound like a big great magnificent machine.

[@reeilona]

It really does sound like a big great magnificent machine. When I listened Yesterwynde, my thought was "what a MACHINE flowing perfectly".

[@erbnews9984]

I haven't watched the video in it's entirety yet, I'm just at the start, but I just want to say how unfortunate it is that the Nightwish peeps can be so volatile and hostile towards opinions that differ from constant barraging of praise, when even within the Nightwish community there's huge divides and opinion preferences on the tracks and albums, and that's okay! It's more interesting to see someone's genuine critique and distastes in a reaction and elaborating on why they felt that way, so long as it isn't just hate for the sake of hate, than I enjoy just braindead headbanging with cliche praise that could be put upon any song period. I like reactions because it's cool to see someone's take that may have a different perspective from your own, do I want you to love the music as much as I do? Of course, but that's no reason to be mad and aggressive if you don't. I may not speak for the whole Nightwish community, but I would like to say that it's unfortunate that you receive hate for honesty. I hope you keep being honest and sharing your true thoughts whatever may be, I think the world is a more interesting place like that! Cheers!

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@erbnews9984 thanks for this!

[@griffinjg1]

Try the spotify version or itunes I think the problem is youtube compression. When I listen on spotify the mix is much better.

[@nicosilva8724]

Spoiler: it's not.

[@drolzak7]

Noticing similar things here, the KZbin compression makes everything sound mushed together, while it's more dynamic on Spotify.

[@neonspec]

I really like the album from a musical, songwriting and conceptual standpoint and even I have problems with the mix. The fact that some fans are so blind to the glaringly obvious problems and keep deferring to Troy’s sad attempts at damage control over the mix? It’s laughable. The Nightwish fanbase is becoming just like the Iron Maiden fanbase. Constantly trying to delude themselves and excusing poor decision making by their favorite band. Not to mention the fact that Tuomas and Troy have basically admitted they don’t listen to any criticism. They literally have their fingers in their ears and are going “la la la not listening la la la”. It’s frustrating behaviour both from the fans and from the band members themselves.

[@Lilith_Xolaani]

Tuomas' ego has been a problem ever since the Tarja era, why would it be any different now.

[@SRocks59]

Nightwish made a great album and they mixed it the way they wanted. You can do things in a million ways but you always have to respect the artist's vision. It's a bit the same thing if people were advising Leonardo Da Vinci how he should have painted the Mona Lisa. A&P-REACTS interviewed Troy just recently and he explains very well what they wanted the album to sound like. In my opinion the album is awesome and if you don't like it you can always listen something else. Link to Troy's interview kzbin.info/www/bejne/b366qGVtiNWUoKs

[@MikkoRantalainen]

I wish you did similar blind reaction to Wintersun's "Time II" which was released about three weeks ago. As far as I know that was mixed and mastered by Jari Mäenpää who also composed all the songs. As a bonus, you can get multitrack variants of those songs from the band if you believe you can create a better mix.

[@lanzarlaluna]

@@MikkoRantalainen He did a reaction to Time II.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@@lanzarlaluna Damn KZbin failed me again. I'll have to look it up.

[@flowq3874]

Always been a proud member of the Nightwish Army, but the amount of blind devotion and the absence of any critical faculties of some "fans" is mindboggling. It's the first time I was part of a fanbase, but those fans have destroyed that for me with their almost religious gatekeeping. Good job!

[@SokolRock]

If you don't like what the band is doing, you're not a fan - it's that simple. And gatekeeping has nothing to do with it. It's just ridiculous if people call themselves "fans" and complain like "Bring back Marko, fire Troy, make music similar to what you did before and btw increase the vocal level in the mix." You don't have a say in the decisions of a band and either you're on the same page with them or you're not a fan anymore.

[@flowq3874]

@@SokolRock " If you don't like what the band is doing, you're not a fan - it's that simple. " So a fan likes everything a band is doing? Then I am indeed not a fan.

[@SokolRock]

@@flowq3874 That's right. You can say, "I'm not a fan, but I like some of their albums." The word "fan" has become too overused. Many people who really liked a song immediately declare that they are fans of the band, but it's just a stupid exaggeration. Just like using the word "hate" when it's more appropriate to say "I don't like it." We must return the words to their original meaning and then no one will be confused.

[@dagonluke]

I think that is possible to like even with some flaws. Don’t you? I don’t see a “blind devotion”. I see people saying that it’s ok for them. Don’t be caught by a “specialist fallacy”. A specialist knows what he knows, not everything about a subject.

[@SokolRock]

@@dagonluke By the way, another problem is that people often say "flaws" when it comes to the initial characteristics of something that they just don't like. But it's wrong to say "flaws" about something that was originally intended, just because some listeners didn't like it.

[@teijoh]

Why would you just complain throughout the hole video haha, the album was amazing! Even the mixing

[@Skreee]

Not everyone can appreciate good music xD

[@Dunkingdom]

I suggested the band "The Warning" for you to react a while ago, you haven't yet but I want to say that it will be fun to see you listening some Sabaton as well.

[@Alexa-97]

The song lanternlight is dedicated to Tuomas' deceased father

[@TeamWolfySoupy]

2:23:58 ''And she doesn't necessarily need to be the loudest thing, but she needs to be equal to the loudest thing''. That would still make her ''the loudest thing'', sir.

[@anttimakinen8657]

Nightwish arena channel there is perfume at the timeless and an ocean of strange islands in floors edition. Vocals are normal in those versions.

[@budspanka2221]

one thing i can say for sure is, that i like the way floor sounds live way more than on the studio albums. don't know if it is primarly due to mix/master or just the way it was intended, but her energy and power live just often does not really get translated well on albums on this particular mix, everything points to the way that they actually really inteded for floor to be "just like another instrument among the many". still i feel, maybe also due to their new try with dolby atmos mix that it kinda fked up the whole thing. overall, it also feels like they gone more for a "movie score" music sound than a "metal band sound" so maybe that's also one of the factors

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@budspanka2221 I would be very curious to hear the Dolby Atmos mix that's for sure! I'm sure it sounds incredible regardless of the levels of everything. But when you only have two channels to work with, things need to be wrangled a little bit more.

[@anthrazite]

Honest to god if you can only hear cymbals, you hella messed up the sound curve on your equipment

[@MikkoRantalainen]

27:30 As far as I know, Tuomas does everything for the songs and only input from Floor is "I have to breath somewhere in this section" but otherwise Floor will execute whatever Tuomas has written.

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@MikkoRantalainen I could swear I remember her saying something about having more creative freedom to do some vocal lines and melodies for Human Nature, but I definitely could be wrong.

[@metalor5605]

Band shifted a bit when Troy got into the band and with Marko not there, Troy influence is higher. To me that is the difference, not saying that is wrong or right but its different.

[@LordBrozart]

Floor did have to record her vocals in her home studio, which could have had effect on the quality of the lead vocal recording

[@renejensen7799]

I feel you guys take this from a general view of how mixing is done, and dont consider the story, the songs here is mixed diffrently, so that the songs that is meant to take you on a journey, the vocal wont be as much on front, as the more intimate song, this is done to get all elements of the song to shine, if you want to focus on drums, bass, vocals, or orchestra you can, because no one outshines the other most of the time.. As Troy(band member) said in a interview i just watched it would make no sense in some songs to make the vocal any more present, as it all is a part of the journey.. I can however hear your guys are experieced in mixing, and i also enjoyed watching your perspectives..

[@MikkoRantalainen]

47:40 I think this is Uilleann pipes played by Troy.

[@stpfs9281]

Could be his massive pipes, Uilleann pipes!

[@lanzarlaluna]

Are we sure Lars didn't have a say in the hi hat volume? 🥸

[@YoJimBo851610]

Do you think mastering in Dolby Atmos affects the final mix?

[@stpfs9281]

Did someone mix up the wiring? As well as the mixing?

[@Kenjames10]

Best intro to a review ever lol

[@PaulTheTurkish-ny1wc]

I agree with the feeling about the mix. Floor seems too far in the background. There is so much going on with other elements that she seems to almost disappear. It might be what they intended but for me it doesn’t work. It’s mainly drums and bass in my ears. Shame because I love the album, can’t wait for live/different versions that might come n the future.

[@ernestoalvarez7030]

I am sure these two multi platinum selling producers will demo a more refined and professionally produced piece of music. In a few weeks' time, these two experts will show us what Nightwish missed. Come on, guys, show us what you got?

[@Kenjames10]

Keep the Nightwish content coming! Wouldn't mind you and Chris going through the Nightwish catalogue similarly like you did with Metallica.

[@artonx4719]

The only sound I heard is sipping and slurping from a bottle about 250 times...

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@artonx4719 you weren't missing any vocals, so dont feel too bad.

[@TheWaldoking]

maybe buy better headphones

[@RolfMeyer-cl7ou]

How Troy say, they dont play with Orchestra, THEY PLAY IN THE ORCHESTRA The Mix is perfect.

[@chrism2964]

Which anyone in the industry knows is horseshit. This doesn't sound remotely like what any of the band has claimed. Its just a fucked up mix.

[@RolfMeyer-cl7ou]

@@chrism2964 i say it again. The Mix is perfect.

[@chrism2964]

@@RolfMeyer-cl7ou Well, you're wrong, but if you like it then good for you. I would however suggest a hearing test. It doesn't sound like they are in the orchestra, it sounds like the drums are the lead, at the front, the orchestra is behind and the vocals, Floor specifically, is right at the back trying to shout over them, all while you are at the front with a pillow over each ear.

[@AlvenmodFoto]

I get the point of the mix, but do you really believe a Tuomas and the band would have approved this release if they were not 100% happy with it? This is what they wanted, like it or not. Personally I love every second of this album, even though I agree that for some songs I personally would have wanted a different mix.

[@chrism2964]

@@AlvenmodFoto I dont dislike the songs (although I'm one of those that doesn't much like Troys contributions), I just dislike the sound stage. I'm not angry, just disappointed.

[@rafaelpfutze]

Could you make a video about the Human Nature album!

[@bbeckett5103]

It's not because they supposedly wanted the album to be mixed like this that it's good. I'm a pure listener so I don't mind a lot but I would have preferred to hear Floor more on all 12 songs.

[@kristianlantz3513]

Yes, that argument is quite funny. As long as people have done something the way they want, then everybody else should think it's good! 😉

[@williamadkins2170]

Jukka used a fretless bass in track 6.

[@Hreimdal]

Everyone's a critic. Maybe you should try and reach out to Tuomas and get the gig to mix their upcoming albums. Clearly you know better than the band themselves what their vision should sound like. It was a conscious decision to mix it the way it was. You can agree or disagree with it (and clearly its the latter in your case) but doesn't change the fact that its the sound they were going for on this album.

[@LordBrozart]

Yes, I love Nightwish and Final Fantasy music lol Also love Metallica 🤘🏻 Btw you really should play FF7 Remake and Rebirth!

[@stpfs9281]

Didn't Floor do a song for FF? older version. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqPEhYSjo9Z8qZY

[@LordBrozart]

@@stpfs9281 wow this is a collab I didn’t know I needed! Thanks for sharing

[@lanzarlaluna]

I see Patrick is experiencing the wrath of the Nightwish cult. 😂 I laugh at the people who think we should just accept it as amazing because it's "what the band intended." Fun fact: Not all ideas are good ideas.

[@flowq3874]

I am from Germany and can hardly resist the itch to tell those people: Hitler's mass executions in the gas chambers were also intended. But maybe that is a bit too heavy stuff 😂😳

[@SokolRock]

Why do you think that negative opinions are more important than the opinions of loyal fans who understood the band's idea, are happy with the album and don't think that it has any audio issues?

[@adlicious100]

❤💜🥳🔥🦁🧩👍

[@SimonWieger]

I am a huge Nightwish fan, and to be clear, I like and love many songs on this album. But I also mix and master songs for bands and I agree on many things with you guys. I see a bunch of sour and derogatory comments made by Nightwish fans who don't want to face reality. Who maybe love Nightwish so much they are in denial and disregard the obvious: this album wasn't mixed and/or mastered properly. It sounds way too compressed and the low end is far too boomy. Maybe the band, or the mixing/mastering engineers fell in love with the (depth of the) orchestra parts too much. I also think the guitar tone, not the volume, but the tone may be too overpowering for the complexity of it all. And clearly... choises should have been made to make Floor's incredible vocals shine and cut through way more. It's a pity... what could have been...

[@oskarkw6400]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3jYhqCqapablbc Here is interview with Toumas Holopainen where he stated that they don`t want to make music that masses want, They will and want to make music as THEY (the band) fit and want. You can disagree with that, but hey.. They are what they are and if they want that so be it and let them be.

[@Alexi676]

Really, I’m quite shocked by the blind devotion in the comments. This idea that you have to only say great things about Nightwish is insane. It’s never just as simple as “do you like the songs or not?” I can like the majority of the songs but dislike how it’s mixed. I still enjoy Nightwish as a metal band first. Not a film score.

[@renejensen7799]

Well of cause you can, the thing os just, the mix is meant to be like this, for a reason, try watch the interview AP react did with Troy, he explain why the mic is this way a little..

[@ImmortalDecember]

Personally I don't think of this album as a core band accompanied by an orchestra and choir. If you're gonna invite a symphony ensemble into the music, then I want a fully integrated sound and composition, not just a "Metallica's S&M" type of flash over substance. Human Nature was the vocals oriented "band album" mostly. I love Yesterwynde for treading the other side and exploring symphonic metal as immersive fusion, not just a subgenre of metal - what one may be missing if they've just been occupied with NW live videos. I don't think the comments are just "blind devotion", some fans like myself just have the opposite opinion and expressed reasons for it. They posted a very negative reaction that almost seemed like ragebait, and pronounced very clear, audible elements of the music as "can't hear it". I don't think their criticism is very nuanced, and they seemed to present "objectively it's bad". Some will push back and strongly disagree, this is the darkest corner of the internet aka the comments section so what else is new lol.

[@Sky-du7by]

@ImmortalDecember This 100%. As someone with an education in mixing, I was highly critical of the mix when Perfume first dropped. I certainly don’t think it’s perfect now, but after hearing the full album as it was intended to be listened to, I understand their artistic vision. I love the fact that they are dedicated to actually fusing the genres they take influence from and not just making metal with other sounds as a gimmicky afterthought. In the quieter moments of the album like the intro to Spider Silk, you can hear all of the meticulous detail they put into the soundscape of the album, and I honestly think it’s amongst their best work. I heard someone a day or two ago refer to it as arthouse symphonic metal, and I honestly think that’s a pretty good description of their approach here.

[@flowq3874]

@@renejensen7799 You just don't get it, right? Intention does not mean good.

[@ImmortalDecember]

@flowq3874 "Good" is not an objective truth. Some listeners align with their creative intentions and agree that the mix not only makes sense, but it actually sounds great. Nobody is forcing anyone to agree, simply offering a perspective and explanation. Most modern art is all about a particular perspective, or else it looks "like garbage" as people love to say when they visit a museum. I love that the vocals and guitars are integrated and not louder or dominant - people are not lying or glazing when they say they get what NW are trying to achieve.

[@stpfs9281]

It's your show, you talk as much as you want to! Jukka Koskinen, the Bass player, has a deeeep voice, going by Wintersun. Never ending story... Drums and Bass. Titanic theme... A winding Punjabi hurdy-gurdy! Clock, or Windmill? Less is more. But cram it onto one CD (Which you said are no longer made). Take a guess at the number of recording tracks? Hey audio engineers, what's that horrible background noise, when you are talking? Edit: Chris, is it the cat? Oh, is it the springs on the angle-poise mic stand, the floor, worksurface, a large reflective surface to your left, very odd? Echoing at times. Patrick, sometimes the music level dropped when you spoke, sometimes not... Spectrum analysis? Well, you've got ears. Oh, you took a screenshot! Low heavy. Compression is a problem. Annoying high-hat. Are they consistently placed? Misheard lyrics competition! The drummer has twelve foot arms? When you said Floors voice was non-existent, you were joking? Because I could hear her fine at that point. She was the loudest, sometimes. Did they use some automation, that altered the wrong stuff? Like the ancient auto-level recordings? There is a reference to "Bring Me to Life"! The "E" band. "There is woman half a mile away" (was an instrument). Lawnmower! Johnny Depp was here! Poet and the Pendulum, deep dive, yes please! Floor on "Beste Zangers"!

[@roborange159]

Get a bit sick about all the critics about the mix. Tuomas and also Troy explained very well that it was all intentionly. As Troy said in his last interview: In some songs some people say she is low in the mix, but she's not, she is exactly where she should be, her place in each song changes in some songs she is really in front, but in the bigger widescreen vastness of yesterwynde she is exactly where she needs to be and that is as part of the whole sound rather than sat on top she needs to be audible, you should be able to hear every aspect of this record and you shouldn't be distracted by a vocal that's too loud this applies to most music.You've got to be more sensitive as to how you mix something depending on the music and this music specific is very symphonic and this album is more emotional than any other nightwish album, and Floor is perfectly situated in the mix. In some songs you just need to hear every single instrument cello,violin, hobo, vocal etc to get the whole picture. Reading this comment of Troy I hope from now on the discussion about the mix will stop, and just give your opinion about if you like the song yes or no and respect the choice of the composer and the rest of the band.

[@moocorp4574]

If I intentionally lay a shit in your face, you'll still think it's smelly and disgusting.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

2:54:00 I think this mix and mastering must be result of mixed priorities. Instead of making vocals equally loud to drums they optimized for something that is not important for majority of the listeners.

[@eddiehesselman3904]

This makes no sence...you have to listen it with a proper stereo set with good speakers...you have to feel it too. For me this album is a Masterpiece.

[@Isaiddontpanic]

1:54. You can totally do adjustments to vocals and all instuments with AI... ever heard of Moises...

[@The_Cavemaan]

I really appreciate your 3 hour effort...really good reaction video, really enjoyed, learned a lot, and stick to your opinion, that's what a true reaction video should be...an honest opinion about music, production and everything involved in an album...i really loved the album, i agree that floor is buried in the mix, and that's so sad, but, it is what it is..tks guys

[@wilsonvelasco2098]

EVERY STRING AND CHOIR AND BRASS AND PIPES AND EVERYTHING LINKED TO THE CONCEPT OF ORCHESTRATION IS ONE HUNDRED PER CENT REAL LODON SESSION ORQUESTRA ETC

[@frankormx2640]

El de la derecha esta re pasado de coca o me parece? Jajajaj

[@Freddespelarspel]

It is pretty insane that big bands with money cant get the mix/mastering correct.

[@adje4angle281]

There is a interview with Troy, he explain how the mix is the mix on the album. Check that out. A&P reacts kzbin.info/www/bejne/b366qGVtiNWUoKs

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@adje4angle281 Just because Troy want's the album to sound like this does not mean it is "good" sounding or correct.

[@SokolRock]

@@PatrickMusilek Can I hear your metal mixes somewhere?

[@househusband7180]

​@@PatrickMusilekAnd just because you want, Patrick.

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@SokolRock If you look up the band Primal Waters on Spotify or Bandcamp you should be able to find their 3 full length albums. I recorded the vocals, and some other elements depending on which album, but I produced (generally gave opinions and helped out with all aspects of the music), edited, and mixed all three of the albums and their one Split EP as well.

[@RolfMeyer-cl7ou]

Wow, the "best" producers and mixers speaking about Tuomas. So funny.😊 Two genius. 😊😊😊

[@flowq3874]

Fanatic.

[@kari2203]

I love this mix.Even my untrained ear can hear all the Instruments,not being drowned by strong vocals. I feel blessed not to understand much about music or mixing haha! I also like and apreciate your enthusiasm for picking songs apart. But I prefer not to know too much 🤘😆🤘

[@d34d10ck]

Good to know that professionals agree with me. It's really hard to argue with fans nowadays.

[@lekalla]

Mix is amazing. Almost perfect.

[@Secanh0]

Go argue with the band. The real professionals responsible for this choice (and they are fine with it btw)

[@d34d10ck]

@@Secanh0 According to that logic every band produces good music because in their eyes it's always perfect. Besides, you don't know what the band members really think about it. They're not going to publicly badmouth about their own album, are they?

[@renejensen7799]

There is a reason the mix is like this, Troy explain it nicely in a interview i watched..

[@flowq3874]

@@lekalla He meant people like you.

[@harripitkanen1953]

I can't bear to look at you anymore. You're just talking about the mix, which Troy has already talked about a dozen times. And I agree with Troy. The mix is ​​perfect.

[@lmbergamini]

Nah, the mix is ATROCIOUS. It sounds like kids playing in their parents garage.

[@aether13x69]

bull fn shit ​@@lmbergamini

[@chrism2964]

troy can say what he likes, he's just saying it as PR. The mix is terrible. Nothing Troy has said makes any difference because the mix isnt even what he claims it is.

[@harripitkanen1953]

@@lmbergamini Okei,How would you have put Floor's sound "in the middle" then, what was the purpose?

[@SokolRock]

These reactors have very peculiar tastes and also tend to pay close attention to insignificant details and skip over what is important, so I wouldn't take their opinion as very valuable, even though they present themselves as "audio engineers". Patrick doesn't like the sound of "Yesterwynde", but he loves "Dark Passion Play" which has probably the most terribly "brick-walled" sound in the entire Nightwish discography, almost like "Death Magnetic" - it says a lot about how he "understands" good mixing.

[@chrism2964]

This doesnt sound like a 'brick-walled' mix, unless you mean a brick wall with a large stack of pillows in front of it.

[@SokolRock]

@@chrism2964 That album is one of the victims of the 'loudness war' with an excessively compressed dynamic range making it sound like through overdriven speakers. Not the worst example, like those produced by Rick Rubin, but quite noticeable.

[@chrism2964]

@@SokolRock Perhaps, but it still sounds better than this. Its not just the mix, the recording itself sounds muffled in places. Its like someone made a huge mistake recording their part and rather than do it again they are trying to cover it up.

[@SokolRock]

@@chrism2964 Maybe it's just that your ears don't hear certain frequencies? Because I don't hear anything in the sound of "Yesterwynde" that I would find annoying. Human hearing is individual, you know.

[@chrism2964]

@@SokolRock Problems with the mix have been pointed out by multiple people from the first day Perfume was released. We are all hearing the same things, but your interpretation of what is going on may be different to mine. My position on it is that if the band intended it to sound like this then they made a mistake, technical or creative makes little difference, its a mistake. Don't agree? Glad you like it. To me it sounds nothing like what the band is saying it should.

[@NightwishArmyItalianDivision]

clean your ears gentlemen, you clearly need it , this is my honest opinion.

[@phoenixaki3458]

How dare someone have a different opinion on music...

[@MikkoRantalainen]

1:19:40 What we should learn about this story: make backups of your backups! Unless you have minimum of 3 copies of given data, you cannot even claim that you have a permanent copy of it. It's more like a lease at that point so make those backups.

[@Sky-du7by]

I’m only 43:50 into the video right now but I wanted to say I really appreciate your comments on the mix/master as someone interested in music production. Maybe my memory is off but Floor doesn’t really sound much lower to me than she did on EFMB (and to be fair I would have liked her vocals much higher on that album), but I definitely felt the guitar solo in Ocean of Strange Islands was particularly buried in a way that hasn't happened before. Another strange moment for me was the spoken word on The Antikythera Mechanism, which seems to almost disappear on certain sound systems (and regardless of the intention behind the rest of the mix, I certainly don't think burying a spoken word was an intentional artistic choice). What I found really interesting was your analysis that it was caused by the mastering compression rather than the mix. That would actually explain why songs like Yesterwynde, Sway, Hiraeth, the intro to Spider Silk, etc. sound so incredibly good and immersive to me while Perfume of the Timeless and several moments in other heavy tracks just sound a bit off. Overall I am a huge fan of this album, which surprised me after having mixed feelings on the first single. I actually feel it’s amongst my favorite work by Nightwish because I really like all of the unusual artistic choices they went for from a compositional perspective. Edit @ 54:32: In regard to Nightwish never having an over compression problem before, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on that. I actually think over compression has consistently been their biggest production problem throughout their entire history. Century Child in particular is almost unlistenable to me with its horrendous clipping on the master, but its saved by its amazing songwriting. Dark Passion Play and Imaginaerum also suffer from overcompression, but rather than obvious clipping like CC or lost leads like Yesterwynde, the primary victim of the master on those albums are the small details in the orchestration. You can do an A/B comparison on the original Poet and the Pendulum and the Decades remaster and hear all the small details that were missing in the original. You can also compare End of All Hope original vs Decades and hear how much more pleasant it is on the ears without the original clipping. So I actually think the only unique thing about Yesterwynde's problem is the fact that it is less obvious that the culprit is in the mastering compared to the older albums where it is immediately evident (and as a result, I actually find Yesterwynde sounds more pleasant overall than those albums with the exception of moments where something is truly buried like the spoken word).

[@myrathjanssen1938]

I totally agree with you two, the more instruments get added the softer the vocal gets. Floor recorded her vocals at home because she just had her 2nd baby, so she wasn't part of the rest of the recording and mixing. I think it was the rest of the bands decision to lower the vocals on this album to let them be a part of the orchestration

[@SokolRock]

"Floor recorded her vocals at home because she just had her 2nd baby, so she wasn't part of the rest of the recording and mixing." You sound like they did it behind her back. But what does it have to do with where she was recorded, if the album was mixed in a different studio than the one where the band was recorded anyway and also a few months later? And I think that in the modern age of the Internet, Floor's personal presence at the mixing desk is not necessary if she wants to hear the mixes.

[@myrathjanssen1938]

@@SokolRock It was in answer to Patricks question if Floor herself wanted the vocals to be low in the mix for some reason

[@SokolRock]

@@myrathjanssen1938 And the honest answer is that we don't know for sure, most likely she was aware. But her pregnancy has nothing to do with it.

[@DominicKeravel]

That was fun guys listening to the album with you! Big Nightwish fan here (also a musician) and I very much had the same thoughts about the mix choices. That was a super fair review full of love and respect given to the band. I love the album, it's okay to have high quality expectations from these guys. ;)

[@MikkoRantalainen]

It would be interesting to hear the Atmos version because it was mastered by different audio engineer. If it's much better, then the problem must be mastering. And obviously the Atmos mix is going to be different from stereo mix.

[@greeniesr]

Yes, you guys are, "The Greatest Experts on Earth"....UGH

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Somebody summarized the style of this album the best: "Heaviest album that Auri has ever released". Just the mix is bad as you also explained in this video.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

1:46:50 As far as I know, Tuomas himself was in the mixing studio for 5 months in straight with the mixing engineer so I would assume either his hearing has gone bad or this was intentional result of the mixing.

[@fredverkerk838]

youtube compres the sound

[@SRocks59]

@@fredverkerk838 Exactly ... and the fault could be in your own listening devices or even in your own impaired hearing.

[@oskarkw6400]

Toumas stated already couple of times that mixing in intentional. Check interviews with him so you would hear it yourself

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@@SRocks59 Indeed. I've found that some headphones cross-mix channels partially by design to be less jarring with separate stereo audio. However, that kind of intentional misrendering of the input audio would definitely cause problems with this mix, even if it were preferable for some other audio sources. After hearing this mix on multiple audio systems, the closer to accurate rendering the system has been, the better the music has been. It would already consider this album a reference quality because it very clearly separates high quality audio gear from low quality stuff. And remember that your audio system always consist of the whole path from the playback medium to your ears. Too heavy audio compression, bluetooth, low quality DA converter, cross-mixing in your headphones or wax in your ear canals could all be reducing the audio quality.

[@moocorp4574]

I think Tuomas is probably too friendly with the mix/mastering people, and they're in their bubble. I don't know how they cannot see how bad the mix/mastering is. My mix/mastering is obviously a lot worse but I'm just a damn amateur

[@alexr8817]

Mixing and production of album was done by Tero Kinnunen and Mikko Karmila, who have been working with Nightwish since 1998. On Tarja albums and Anette albums they did great mixing and even helped to make tracks that didn't sound good at all become hits that opened albums and shows. Maybe they just got old and lost their perfect musical ear.

[@moocorp4574]

@@alexr8817 indeed, old and possibly lazy

[@oskarkw6400]

@@moocorp4574 nope, you all got it wrong and I assume you never watched or read interviews with Toumas. He already stated couple of times that mixing was intentional, so stop being ignorant and learn something

[@moocorp4574]

@@oskarkw6400 intentional garbage

[@oskarkw6400]

@@moocorp4574 I got a simple solution for you then - don't listen to it.

[@jyrkimyllykoski676]

do you have your own products to present?

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Somebody explained that the idea behind this album would have been that the band is part of the orchestra and this is an orchestra album. I'm not sure if this was actually the original idea or a made up explanation after-the-fact.

[@mw4rdi]

This is not enough of an excuse to make all the songs sound so bad. Same with Perfume of the Timeless and their "the chorus sounds like this because it's all the ancestors singing along" bullshit. There's no reason big enough to justify this horribly sounding vocals. I think the songs on this album are one of the best, some of them THE best, Tuomas has ever written, but I'm extremely disappointed in how they sound. I can't wait for the live versions.

[@unkelib4391]

don't know what is happening whit there sound but this mix is messy and drowning in low frequents even floors song lacking middle frequents and clarity think senone haw been falling in the Teknik pit just begores you haw a lot of electronic don't means things sound better and bey the way floors mike is perhaps one of the best on marked costing the same as a small car and her sound track is makeed in her one studio

[@stpfs9281]

For an audio engineer, this video has a horrible mix of their voices! What are all the background noises, apart from the cat? Angle-poise springs? Creaky chairs?

[@adlicious100]

You really don't know what yall talking about ...iam unscribed

[@jyrkimyllykoski676]

was it nice to listen to your productions?

[@nicosilva8724]

Another muddy, stiff and trascientless modern metal album. Its definitvely the overcompression of the Mastering. I'm so tired of hearing that crap since 2019.

[@anthrazite]

Then go listen to hip hop and stop watching videos about music you know you don't like?

[@wilsonvelasco2098]

EVERY STRING AND CHOIR AND BRASS AND PIPES AND EVERYTHING LINKED TO THE CONCEPT OF ORCHESTRATION IS ONE HUNDRED PER CENT REAL LODON SESSION ORQUESTRA ETC

[@PatrickMusilek]

@@wilsonvelasco2098 that's just not true. You can hear Tuomas playing strings on keyboards and lots of other keyboard sounds that are similar to and fill out the orchestration. But yes I've heard the "orchestral mixes" and I know that every song has a full length, real orchestration attached to it.

[@wilsonvelasco2098]

@@PatrickMusilek that’s called keyboards. Theyre here for it. But every instrument here is organic and real. Except for the tuomas’ keys part.