DO SPECS REALLY MATTER in Audio? - Understanding Speaker Measurements!

There are some audiophiles that buy loudspeakers and amplifiers while disregarding specs or how they measure. Some buy based solely on positive subjective reviews while others buy based on good laboratory measured results or impressive specs. A recent KZbin video came up on another channel where the commentator downplayed the importance of objective data and specs when choosing a product claiming laboratory measurements cannot predict how a product will sound in your room. The latest peer reviewed research in psychoacoustics is not in agreement with that opinion and we discuss why in this video.
Read Objective Loudspeaker Measurements to Predict Subjective Preferences
bit.ly/3qipgCs
Audioholics Recommendations Amazon Shop: www.amazon.com...
Audioholics Recommended Cables:
250ft CL2 12AWG Speaker Cable: amzn.to/2vwS9QH
Locking Banana Plugs: amzn.to/2ZQt15x
9ft 4K HDR HDMI Cables: amzn.to/2WiIXeD
Audioholics Recommended Electronics:
Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2CH AV Receiver: amzn.to/31UOD3Q
Yamaha RX-A3080 9.2CH AV Receiver: amzn.to/2VzA03v
Denon AVR-X6700H 11.2CH AV Receiver: amzn.to/38zHjMr
Audioholics Recommended Speakers:
SVS Prime 5.1 Speaker / Sub System: amzn.to/2GWoFCn
Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speakers: amzn.to/2Vd8QQn
Pioneer SP-FS52 Speakers: amzn.to/2n7SyIJ
Sony SSCS5 Speakers: amzn.to/2ndEn56
SVS SB-3000 13" Subwoofer: amzn.to/2XYxqBr
Follow us on:
Patreon:
/ audioholics
FACEBOOK
/ audioholics
GOOGLE PLUS
plus.google.co...
TWITTER
/ audioholicslive
#hifi​ #audio​ #speakers

[@Audioholics]

In this video, we discuss the importance of proper specs and objective measurements in audio products to help make informed purchasing decisions. The article below demonstrates the peer reviewed science of subjective listening preference based on how a loudspeaker measures. Read Objective Loudspeaker Measurements to Predict Subjective Preferences bit.ly/3qipgCs

[@Audioholics]

@Click Bait agreed

[@Bloodmoon1985]

Wonderful video

[@Rockhurst22]

Gene, I find your trolling absolutely disgusting! I challenge you to rewatch Andrews video with a neutral Harman perspective and see how he isn’t saying measurements and specs don’t matter. You and Andrew are in fact saying the same thing that other factors play a part but what really matters is the message in his video. So I’m asking you to be above your actions and stop insulting where insults aren’t needed and stop trolling Andrew.

[@Audioholics]

@@Rockhurst22 hurtfeelioma much? I offer a counterpoint to his message. I don't censor viewpoints that disagree with his narrative and accuse commentators of harassment like his better half has done.

[@Rockhurst22]

@@Audioholics I almost suspect you’re the one with hurtfeelioma. Unlike Andrew, he didn’t ask his viewers and subscribers for an financial handout when the pandemic hit and you were building a million dollar home. Andrew did something about the hard times and dug in for a successful channel. Something I’m sure you’re hurt or jealous over.

[@christakimoto8425]

I am not an engineer but I am a scientist in a field where double blinded controlled testing is the gold standard. Your video truly resonates with me. Thanks for all that you do for us on Audioholics!

[@BryanRuby]

When I watched Andrew's video I never once felt that he was saying measurements and specs don’t matter, but that ultimately there is a lot more to the equation of what sounds good to the listener than specifications and measurements. I have degrees in physical science and information technology, my entire profession is controlled by specs, measurements, algorithms, and usability but ultimately whether I'm right or wrong (despite there being a right answer) it still comes downs to how a specific person perceives the information or product that wins over the day. Specifications and measurements may help determine why something works or WHY someone likes (or will like) a particular sound but they NEVER determine WHAT a person enjoys hearing. When Steve Guttenberg got the ball rolling for enthusiasm over the Klipsch RP-600M by calling them "magical" and determined them as a Speaker of the Year...some of the more heavily spec-only folks spent way too much effort trying to dismiss these speakers based on their measurements alone and by questioning Klipsch's own specs. But you know what, I bought the 600M and they sound great. I do need specs and measurements to tell me what I potentially might like (or not like) for my me, my home, and my system. I don't need specs and measurements to tell me what I like...and some reviewers seem to not acknowledge this point enough either. There needs to be a happy medium in this discussion and I felt Andrew offered that.

[@scottyocum4215]

Canadian companies do a great job with measurements as well as Harman. Someone above said measures can be useful as a starting point and understanding system matching. I have Revel, Totem and Klipsch and I enjoy them all for different reasons. Neutral doesn’t mean I will like or enjoy it more. Science and measures are great but perhaps the key is understanding your profile preferences within the measures and where your priorities lie. Recordings, Rooms and our Mood all matter once you get to a base quality product. I must say I like that Steve G, Andrew and others have done many laps around the block and learned that you don’t need to be told what to like; you should learn what you like and filter out others opinions.

[@BryanRuby]

@@scottyocum4215 Agree. You said it better than I did with fewer words!

[@vinnytube1001]

@@scottyocum4215 That's the key. Some people may prefer narrow or wide dispersion. Some may prefer ultra-low distortion. Some may prefer non-flat FR curves. Some may be completely insensitive to strange FR curves. Some may be sensitive to phase and/or time alignment. Sometimes the elements of loudspeaker design force trade-offs between these aspects. Knowing what you like, and having good measurements, will help you create a short-list. I don't think anyone would ever honestly suggest that we can go by measurements alone anyway.

[@scottyocum4215]

@@BryanRuby @Vinny Tube I just streamed music to all zones and went room to room which was interesting. The Totems tweeter wins with sparkle and tone, Klipsch heritage speaker has best midrange and warmth in a vintage kind of sound and the Revel F208 has the largest wall of sound, clarity and balance. As Vinny alludes to speaker designers make trade offs in that Uber competitive price range between $1 - $ 5k.

[@Skyshakerrrr]

Well said scott

[@adamyelle4901]

Probably easy to say measurements don't matter for youtube reviewers when there is a constant stream of products to demo arriving at their doorstep. For the rest of us we need all the info we can get to make an informed buying decision: measurements, listening impressions, demos, etc. Pooling as many resources as possible is what I try to do. This stuff isn't cheap and you want to get it right. Thanks a bunch for all the work you do!

[@VintageVic93]

Andrew’s continuous claim is being a “recovering audiophile”. He used to care about it all, but didn’t find joy. The message behind his channel is to look at equipment through a more emotional view and he is appealing to a different demographic; not just chasing the small details that intense audiophiles do. I respect the audiophile view, but I’ve started noticing how critical I was becoming about my, and others’, equipment. I was focusing on what I needed to get better sound rather than just sitting back and enjoying what I have.

[@BryanRuby]

I hear you. Being content with what I have is a much happier place to be at than the pursuit of perfection.

[@Skyshakerrrr]

You are an audiophile 1000% my friend.

[@VintageVic93]

@@Skyshakerrrr thank you! I am only beginning my audio journey, but I look forward to gaining wisdom as I go along. Just to cut out the bull crap.

[@VintageVic93]

@Sheepish Lord Exactly! Some people just take it too far. Like, do I want to upgrade my Klipsch Heresy tweeters to ones that can go to 20,000 hz? Yes. Can I hear past 15,500 hz? No.

[@VintageVic93]

@@BryanRuby It’s taken a few eye rolls from my wife and Andrew Robinson’s viewpoints to realize that.

[@brkly99]

Specs and measurements are useful guidance, and I have checked out specs on every speaker I have owned and many I have listened to. But beyond screening I would never select on specs, only on listening. There is room for both.

[@Audioholics]

Agreed of course.

[@andrewskaterrr]

I actually had this happen to me. I was comparing speakers looking for the flattest and that had the best dispersion for my movie theater. I went to a local shop and they had 3 that I had compared. Didn't like any of the "flatter" ones including the B&W 603. I had told the guy I didn't want to hear the Klipsh because they were too inaccurate in the treble, but said why not after hearing the others. BOOM just the sound I was looking for with the RP-5000, but not bassy enough. Went into the next room with the RF-8000 and that was it. I ordered a pair but the next day the JBL Stuido 590s hit $1000 a pair so I ordered those and cancelled the Klipsh. Man do I love their sound even though they are "inacurrate" from a measurement standpoint, but sound more "realistic" to me with that treble, more lively. Totally surprised me how it all worked out opposite of how I thought it would.

[@Audioholics]

@@andrewskaterrr JBL is a Harman brand and designed to be neutral. Klipsch RF-8000 actually measure pretty neutral. They are a good speaker.

[@xavdeman]

@@andrewskaterrr this exchange is a great example of why specs and measurements matter. You liked the speaker and due to brand reputation you thought they must be 'coloring' the sound. When actually they are pretty neutral balanced speakers with good bass extension.

[@willbrink]

As a scientist, I appreciate this vid and the channel in general.

[@adamjj85]

I'm with you Gene! Of course measurements matter. Great response and guys like you, Amir at ASR, and Erin are absolutely needed and appreciated as some of the best reviewers out there! Andrew made some good points however measurements can't be dismissed and certainly shouldn't be ignored by an audio reviewer. They are one of the only objective tools we have in audio.

[@williamkramer9069]

Who is Erin? #fomo

[@adamjj85]

@@williamkramer9069 Erin's Audio Corner

[@johnhoffman8041]

Hi liked this video and get how some people want to dig into measurements. I bought Heresy's based on Andrew's review and they are as he said and I love them. I did watch the other video on how the Heresy's measured poorly. Andrew to me is great for his opinion which I have found fits my ears well. There is room for all of us in this hobby which seems to be getting missed a bit. Best

[@Audioholics]

Of course there is but a healthy debate pushes the envelope for everyone.

[@johnkettlewell4854]

I thought my Epos ES 22 had great bass and it does with a 3 db drop off at 40 hz in my room. Then I added two big rel subs with room correction-- hmm no contest- Now the bass is incredible- big, powerful, impactful, - waves hit and you can feel the ripples of bass go through you with palpability. Musicality increased throughout the frequency- goose bumps! Try a couple of subs with your Heresy’s and you will hear bass and you will never turn off the subs.

[@danielwander605]

I still don’t get how this keeps getting so misconstrued. The message isn’t specs don’t matter or truth in specs aren’t important. The message is don’t drive yourself crazy with specs and if you like what you have then enjoy it. And don’t let some know it all on the forums tell you that you’re wrong for enjoying it. I mean it’s really simple so I don’t get how it’s being misconstrued to be that specs don’t matter at all. Majority of people could care less about specs. They want a nice looking speaker that sounds good to them. They aren’t pulling out their UMIK’s and measuring bass extension. It’s home audio. It’s supposed to be fun and enjoyable. For nerds and hobbyist like us, yes, we want more and more accurate specs. But even if we get that, the majority of people still aren’t going to care.

[@lucymolockian1849]

These dudes take this stuff way too seriously.

[@Audioholics]

@@lucymolockian1849 you have a valid point

[@BryanRuby]

Spot on Daniel!

[@R0adsterr0land]

You stumbled upon the point. It's not what people want but what they get is what matters. And if you don't use, understand (at least to some degree), and make purchasing decisions based of specs (room & gear) then your just rolling the dice.

[@buzzcrushtrendkill]

Audioholics,like us, just enjoy all the tech and science. Geeking it out. It's better than drinking as a hobby. But no less expensive... And those who enjoy what they have may only be mildly interested in what specs are and how they are measured but are not bothered by it anyway.

[@donalddeorio2237]

I read Floyd Toole's papers from NRC and Harmon before I bought my last speaker system, 18 years and I'm still happy. Very good information especially for those new to the hobby

[@Charles7541]

I belive the bigger issue is standardisation of testing methods amongst manufacturers. Only then will the results be tangible/usable.

[@Skyshakerrrr]

Thats what I believe as well mostly Standardization of how and where are those measurements taken even the program and type of mic use to the size anechoic chamber. Measurements will than be more Accurate and therefore more relevant to our subjective hearing 👂. Happy listening.

[@hugocosta179]

My algorithm to buy audio gear: - look at how it measures; - look at how it looks; - consider where you will listen to the Product; - go and have listening sessions at dealers and try to make it as close as possible to your setup; - ask your dealer to try it at home; - if you love it than keep it. So specs don’t matter to decide whether you like a product or not, they don’t matter to make the final decision to keep it. IMHO Specs matter to narrow down the options you have, especially if you are not a reviewer with access to a ton of gear. So from my perspective Andrew is right on that however incomplete when saying it specs do not matter at all. I also don’t think Gene or Andrew would define an audio product good or bad based on measurements as they wouldn’t solely based on their looks. That aspect, measures vs how the product makes you feel was very well explained by Andrew on his video. I like Gene’s approach of providing the contradictory as that helps buyers to have different views for a very passionate and very subjective topic avoiding also to jump on the hype train that we see sometimes. Very often I don’t agree with Gene but it adds value to the purchasing and keeps my balances in check. That’s why I subscribe both :)

[@benjamin5909]

I think your both right. Specs can put you on the right path to narrowing your search. But at the end of the day you have to find speakers that excite you.

[@baronzemo78]

Thanks for the video Gene. I agree with you. Knowing that Audioholics is focused on science not audio snake oil is what got me following you years ago. I do agree that we need more standards in specs and reviews should call out when specs are misleading or beyond the audible range but specs help us compare different products. I also agree that chasing specs so much you don't enjoy the content is not a good approach. People can still appreciate products that may not measure as good as other products. When you review products or talk about the science with Matthew remind people to put things in perspective. We can't all have perfectly measured products and perfect rooms. Thanks for great content and keep listening.

[@mcsnoopster]

I find this interesting. I enjoy and subscribe to both channels. I feel like for the MOST part Gene's audience is cometely different the Andrew's audience. I think Andrew is going more for a very casual person. The products he's reviewing are very different for the most part and much lower end price points. I think both these guys are right. The fact is different people will hear different things from the same set of speaker depending on variables, their own listening preferences, their hearing capabilities etc. Gene is obviously right - measurements matter. Full stop. Obviously. But Andrews implied point in his video was listen to something rather than focus just on specs, because your preferences and hearing may mean something that spec wise is superior MAY not actually be superior for YOU. And that point is 100% correct as well and I've had it happen myself. Interesting video Gene, I'd prefer a little less of a hot take on a vid but I'll keep watching regardless.

[@Audioholics]

Yea I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks ;)

[@joepelletier5381]

Big fan of both channels, but is interesting to me, Robinson specifically states measurements are important factors and important in trying to select speakers to audition, but measurements don't matter more than what it sounds like to a person in their room. This video seems to have missed the point there. Also, Robinson opens up a measurements explanation section warning he's going to simplify things, and this video goes on to accuse a lack of understanding from oversimplification. Would have been a more compelling video as an expansion for the nerdier minded audience audioholics probably captures.

[@markrigg6623]

Yes!. I agree I think people are mis interpreting Andrews video. His point is not that measurements don't matter. He actually agrees with a lot of what's being said here. He's just saying that if you like the sound of something , don't allow measured specs to override what your ears are telling you. Genes gone into a bit of an unessercary frenzy on this in my opinion.

[@miroslavbazitov183]

Don’t get confused that this video is a response to what Andrew said in their video, it is a personal response to something unethical Andrew has done in the past which Gene is kind of calling out blah blah blah... youtube drama. Which of course is quite unnecessary, but makes this video pointless (all the viewers here are quite interested in the measurements and believe - enough - in them)

[@donford486]

Thanks for the update on this topic. When I listen to the other KZbin reviewer's post I knew you would respond. As an engineer we start with theory then adapt our design with the practical knowledge that we (our colleagues and peers) have experienced. In the end we have to stand behind our design. Without specs that is near impossible to do. The culture of the audio/video industry seems to be marketing driven probably because they do not have, cannot afford or do not want to measure.

[@Audioholics]

Yea this is NOTHING personal against the particular KZbin Influencer. I just can't sit silent to those that don't have an appreciation or respect for science in any discipline especially when they put forth a message of misinformation on a large platform of enthusiasts just getting into this hobby trying to gain knowledge.

[@americanidle1277]

@@Audioholics Notice how a particular influencer unknowingly disassembled his own argument several times, the most obvious of which he brought up the example of how listening to source content with a "smile curve" and listening to that on a speaker which also exhibits a "smile curve" is basically a double or additive/accumulative curve. So did he not realize that's why neutral speakers are important? To preserve the original signal. It's not difficult. If your speaker isn't neutral, you're not getting anywhere near what the artist intended, and as it so happens as Toole and Sean olive have so clearly laid out, humans prefer neutral speakers, and why shouldn't they.

[@Audioholics]

@@americanidle1277 yep I had a chuckle when I heard that.

[@americanidle1277]

@@Audioholics I think basically, a neutral speaker, setup properly, is the best approximation of what was recorded and I don't think we can do better than that. A colored speaker is further away from that goal of realistic reproduction unless you happen to have the same exact colored speakers they happened to mix on, but even then a neutral speaker is still fine as it theoretically should mimic the colored speaker used to mix fairly transparently. Anyway I'm rambling, keep fighting the good fight!

[@R0adsterr0land]

Thank you for making this. I saw the video you spoke about. For someone who has a limited technical understanding of the issues coupled with a profession that allows him to home audition hundreds of audio product combinations I suppose specs don't matter. He can hit and miss until he lucks out on the right combination of gear, room, and preference. Most of us don't have such luxuries which is why accurate specification are invaluable to making informed decisions.

[@todddembsky8321]

Gene, excellent video -- snake oil topic. First -- spec DO matter Quality of the components MATTER Design DOES MATTER Measurements DO MATTER -- however --- when looking for a new speaker, the only way that you can truly test the speaker is in your listening room at your house. Reflection, refraction, standing waves, type of music, and what will be driving them. The best speakers in the world will not sound good on a 3-watt tube amp with excellent specs. 3 watts just will not give you 120db dynamic range. Yes, efficiency, node, and lobes in the cross over frequency, dynamic range, true frequency response (30HZ to 20,000HZ just does not tell you anything.) are VERY important to review when shopping for a speaker. I want to see more "visual" graphs in reviews so I can make quantitative decisions about a speaker's performance. Then I need time with the speaker in my house for qualitative decisions. Love your channel, always have great content and truthful reviews -- thank you.

[@richm4402]

I think Andrew's point is 'should speaker measurements matter to you?' When well regarded brands Kef and B&W for example, manufacture speakers I already know extensive engineering has gone into their product. For this reason, I'm only interested in basic specs to make sure they're compatible with my equipment ( min impedance, min power required etc.) ultimately listening to the speakers in my room is the most important thing to me. When you're purchasing a Car, do you care what the bore and stroke of the engine is? compression ratio? final drive ratio? No probably not, you read reviews and test drive the car to see if you like it. I don't think anyone's saying measurements don't matter, they obviously do. But which ones should be important to you?

[@R0adsterr0land]

Trust me I'm a big fan of car analogies but that one doesn't quite fit. A cars performance won't change from one normal road to another. Not so with a speaker and room combos.

[@richm4402]

@@R0adsterr0land My point was that many specs and measurements are considerably more important to the engineering and design team than the end user. The end user is the one that benefits from their due diligence.

[@richm4402]

@Piyath so if specs tell the complete story, and 99% of audiophiles read them, why do so many of them use tube based equipment? Please don’t misunderstand, I love tube amps and own several myself, but a $200.00 amp from Best Buy would probably measure better.

[@R0adsterr0land]

@@richm4402 I'd say it's important to all. How else is the end user supposed to narrow down their choice amongst hundreds of pieces of gear without specifications?

[@motherporkersbbq2050]

I'm a little of column a and b with both of you guys. I have only followed Andrews channel for about 2 years now but his everyman approach to enjoying your system and not letting it dominate your every thought is terrific. I am more of a listener than a spec guy...that said I definitely reviewed the specs of my speakers and other equipment before setting up my theater. I do believe overall sound and how the equipment works/fits in your space is way way more important than the numbers on the box. It is a shame you guys have a negative situation. I think terrific advice comes from both sides. It is my opinion that you cater to more the upper end of midfi into the hi fi and beyond (harder core enthusiast) and Andrew is set to help most entry level to upper mid fi guys n gals (casual to slightly more than casual enthusiast) with great advice.

[@Audioholics]

There is room for both of course. I have no issues with people buying based on emotional connection over a product that may measure better. I just don't like to see the science of audio misrepresented. Andrew does incredible videography work and has excellent orator skills. He does hit the value side of audio we probably need to cover more of as well. thanks for your comments.

[@markscott9259]

Yes sir! Specs do matter. Not unless, you want to keep being unsatisfied of something you heard, but just can get it right buying unnecessary gear until the day you grab a little education about spec/measurements. Specs will change your listing life around. Good review Sir 👌👍👍

[@StewartMarkley]

Thank you Gene. Specs absolutely matter and I agree that we need much better specs, read measurements. I don't need to tell you that specs are derived from measurements that are graphed in frequency versus some parameter and boiled down to some spec or not published at all. Besides more specs we need access to those plots, which besides frequency response we should see the spectral decay waterfall plots, and I would like to see power versus harmonic distortion also. A picture, read graph or plot is worth a thousand words, and channels like yours should serve as education for audiophiles to learn to interpret those plots. In the final analysis, our ears serve as the ultimate judge but having adequate data available to help the consumer start making informed choices to narrow the field to a few candidates, rather than depending on some people's opinions about what they think about the sound is like asking people what car they like instead of looking into the information available on cars like features, available packages, performance data, etc.

[@michelkh87]

In science I trust. of course measurements matter. The reason why in my opinion some companies say that measerments aren't necessary and speakers aren't supposed to be flat on axis or accurate, because they simply can't achieve that , or don't have the resources, the budget or that they can't catch up with highly respected companies like Harman,who have been investing in science for decades now,. Therefor they invent their baseless theories and start convincing people that you can't quantify and measure everything you hear.. And the worst thing when they apply this on cables, unfortunately I even see people are comparing speakers on KZbin and commenters below saying wow that sounds fantastic, what are those cables used, they really sound so transparent ! Anyone who has logic can't argue with what you are saying. Great video as always . BTW we are starving for those videos with you Gene, matthew poes, and James larson discussing about speakers measurements and dispersion, I'm sure too much efforts are put together to make those videos. Big love for audioholics!

[@owennikish7995]

I totally agree,and to add to your point. Accurate measurements could help that person who likes a tube sound identify what he likes about a certain model and actually compare it to other models from other companies. Today we don't have the great audio stores of past (at least where I'm from) to go and listen to different amplifiers and speakers hooked up to whatever you wanted.this amplifiers that speaker,no wait let's try that amplifiers and this speaker. Today measurements are more important than anything simply because the vast majority of people will buy things online without actually hearing them. Whatever shows up is what you get. Maybe you like it but maybe you don't. What a waste of time if you don't, ship it back,wait for a refund etc. I'm not saying Accurate measurements will stop people from buying equipment they don't like, but i do think in this on line world it would help people speed up the process of finding gear they truly enjoy.

[@hitsov]

Measurements are (almost) everything, not just specs that can be manipulated. I'm honestly shocked how ppl buy other reviewers BS listening tests. What goed is a video of how a speaker or an amplifier sounds. Especially when you know that it's heavily financially biased

[@Harald-MacGerhard]

Yes, I trust YOU Gene 😎 Your enthusiasm onto this topic is very addictive…. Keep on your legendary work Gene 🥳 But I also see Andrew’s point of view. Focus on enjoying the moment, relax and forget about time and space, just enjoy the music 😋

[@thomaslanser926]

Completely agree...I commented on Andrew’s video with a similar response. This is a topic that really needs to be addressed. Subjective reviews are nice and fluffy, however, they don’t help anyone make a informed purchasing decision. 👍🏼

[@Granyala]

Specs and measurements are invaluable, especially the ones that go beyond mere frequency response because lets face it: with modern DSP and room correction, that gets bludgeoned into the desired shape anyway. Stuff like distortion behavior, driver headroom, impedance curves, dispersion etc. are fare more interesting. Absolutely agreed on needing more standardized measurements, less PR BS (hi AVR power ratings!) etc.

[@perosa99]

Gene sets the record straight. The reality though is not too many of us are equipped to fully interpret the measurements and specs data. That is why, as opposed to some of you guys, I rely on reviews and ultimately on hearing. I am very interested in hearing specs but usually need some help with the interpretation. And even understanding the specs I don’t feel confident enough to make a decision based solely on specs. But I agree that specs need to be available to consumers. There’s a lot of audioholics out there that know and understand this stuff and demand it.

[@pb24dagrk]

I'm all for "trusting your ears" but not at the expense of fundamental understanding of the science and facts. There still needs to be a base of "correct". All too often I see people make terrible recommendations based on "ah don't worry about an SPL meter or tape measure, just use your ears"

[@collinbrown4726]

Excellent review on specs do matter. You make so much sense..thank you for sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

[@suridemis]

What most matter is how it’s recorded. Crappy recording wil sound 💩

[@vinnytube1001]

What irks me in reviews is when people talk about lows/mids/highs being emphasized or recessed, whatever the lingo is. 1) if you don't know that your system is neutral, and 2) you don't know how an album was recorded or didn't hear it during the production process -- you're really just guessing! I could have done all my reference listening on 80s era Cerwin Vega party speakers and the complained that the bass was lacking in every damn system ever.

[@brng1755]

I recently downloaded a High quality music file (I think dsd 11 format) and then listend the same music on spotify. The differenc was night and day with classic muusic but EDM is good enough over spotify.

[@Justwantahover]

That is cos it's actually the first stage. Wait, no it isn't. It's the real snake oil that is at the very beginning. The quality and ridiculous price of the musical instruments! Not many people would spend seven grand on speakers but if you go to a music shop you will see seven grand guitars are quite common and l bet their are ten times more guitars that expensive getting around than there are speakers for that price. And you can't even buy a good sax for that price (well maybe). And even if everything was perfect from mic to your speakers, cheap crappy instruments will still let you down.

[@adams5389]

@@vinnytube1001 I find it hilarious when people talk about studio albums as sounding like a live concert on hi-fi systems, especially if they listen to pop, most rock genres, electronic, etc. Most of these records are mixed and mastered to sound loud, crisp, punchy, etc. Replicating the imaging of hearing the artist playing live at a concert is not really high on the priority list.

[@vinnytube1001]

@@adams5389 Agree. Even a fair amount of "live" albums are from dynamic mics directly hooked onto the performers (or instruments), and still carefully mixed/mastered.

[@thudeets]

There can't be many audio enthusiasts who would disagree. But, this is KZbin. Countless channels on it hosted by anyone who wants to, all have varying levels of understanding the subject at hand. (They're not doctors but they play them of TV) You'll wear yourself out trying to debunk them all. But, well said. Specs are important.

[@williamkramer9069]

Ill reply like i did on andrews video; If you know how the speaker measures and you can measure the speaker in your room you can learn what YOUR ROOM is doing to the speaker and you can address the faults in your room/better speaker placement. If the speaker can play to 40 hz flat but you have no bass at 80 and 120 something is wrong with your room configuration, not the speaker.

[@R0adsterr0land]

That's a good point. If you don't have accurate specs on your speaker you can't gauge the "specs" of your room and move to counter them.

[@Charles7541]

Tyre manufacturers uses standardised methods to test their products. Bridges are built using standardised formulas to calculate bending moments, stress, strain, and deflection... I agree with your views. But the real issue is standardisation.

[@markrigg6623]

Bridges either work or they don't. Your not making a subjective judgement on how good they are as you cross one.! Completely silly analogy. Tyres, yeah maybe. But not bridges.

[@Audioholics]

@@markrigg6623 it was an exaggerated analogy to get the point across that we use engineering principals for designing and engineering systems. The very same processes...

[@markrigg6623]

@@Audioholics Yeah that sounds fair enough but I just don't feel that's where the argument is. Andrew never said you should ignore engineering principals when designing things. It was more of a focus on how we interpret the results of that engineering in relation to what we hear. Youre specs and measurement focused and there's nothing wrong with that, its perfectly relevant and I being a tech myself love diving into your detailed vids. I'm about to buy a Marantz 8015 on the basis of your detailed review that showed how its distortion figures challenged separates in how low they were. But when I saw Andrew's vid, I never thought to myself to change that decision and that your methodology was suddenly invalid! I honestly think you've been a bit defensive and taken it a bit out of context. The way peoples ears work there's room for both sides of the coin to have merit. Keep doing g what you do and please, chill a bit. Thanks for the reply Gene.

[@Audioholics]

@@markrigg6623 Agreed and point taken.

[@HeyYall398]

Excellent discourse. This underscores our profound appreciation for double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials in the field of biomedicine. It is crucial to acknowledge that even engineers, despite their rigorous methodologies, can harbor unconscious biases. The most robust strategy to mitigate such biases is through the implementation of blinded, controlled testing.

[@RockmanLabs]

You touched an important point here: the reason why many believe that specs don't matter is because there is no standardization and everybody makes up their own standard, making it a lot harder for consumers to understand what all those fine prints mean and why 2 seemingly similar pieces of hardware are actually very different.

[@balduraan]

I agree with Gene, when I shop for speakers, or any products for that matter, the first thing I look at is the specification. I then look for measurements/reviews on the product before narrowing down on the products I want to try/listen to. This is especially important nowadays because it is a lot more difficult to be able to listen to different speakers before you buy them.

[@ASSOpid]

I feel sorry for you.

[@GrahamTriggsUK]

The problem with audio purchases is that it's both - there are some basic fundamentals like power and sensitivity that absolutely matter for generating a desired SPL within a certain space. There may be elements of matching a frequency response to the room characteristics. But also everyone has slightly different preferences - what you enjoy does not have to be technically "perfect". But everything tangible is measurable in some way. Having specs and making selections on specs is not about having good specs or bad specs, but having the appropriate specs for the circumstances. I guess you could liken it more to buying shoes. Shoes are built to specs - some are larger, some are smaller, some are wider, some narrower, etc. A size 10 shoe isn't a better shoe than a size 9. A wide fit shoe isn't an inherently bad shoe. And if the size and fit are accurately described by the manufacturer (sadly, that's not always the case), you can get a shoe that fits by knowing the dimensions of your foot. Although even amongst shoes that all fit, you might find one more comfortable than another due to the construction. but shoes that fit are always going to be more comfortable than ones that don't - and you can know that from specifications.

[@hometheaterfever5]

This is why I Only trust you Gene. Everyone else seems to have lost it and are sending the wrong message. So sad. We Really appreciate what you’re doing. Keep it up please 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@Clint3571]

Something he does not mention is that different speakers are tested using different methods. Some use an anechoic chamber, some put them in a room, and some put them in a warehouse. The video in question brings up some good points as well as this one. I think they both just have different perspectives.

[@JonathanDFielding]

So I went and found the video and listened to it and agreed with much of what was said and disagreed with much more but overall his conclusion that specs don't matter is objectively incomplete and misleading completely. Here's what I comments on that video. Measurements DO matter. Check out Audioholics response video. I'm an electrical engineer. Now having said that, I'm not saying that you should listen to me based on that merit alone. But what you're describing is how subjective audio really is and how the listeners own in-ear transfer response along with the room transfer response can change the sound dramatically which I completely agree with, however if you can remove those subjective elements and measure a speaker objectively to gather information like dispersion, distortion, resonance, etc then you can remove those subjective elements from the equation and then you can compare speaker A to speaker B objectively without any of those biases in place. If you're only metric besides your subjective opinion is frequency response then all speakers are equal because frequency response can be tuned using an equalizer. But then those results are subjective based on how you measured and what type of filter you used etc. If I took 10 pairs of speakers and EQ them to measure the exact same and place them in the exact same position with AB tests you would still prefer different ones over others. Why is that? What then becomes the distinguishing factor besides subjective opinion or in other words how were you influenced to prefer one over the other? It's all in the other measurements. Dispersion Speaker break up modes (material selection) Frequency response Resonance Even down to the volume you played at as some speakers can handle higher volume while others distort or color the sound. And the list goes on and on...

[@DMSparky]

The biggest problem with Audioholics is they don’t have the time to review a lot more equipment. It’s a shame that there isn’t a bigger audience for really science focused audio reviews in the consumer space. I think part of the problem is that it seems every audio reviewer wants to make a 7 page essay describing the product in every detail. Honestly you can just tell me the technical specifications of the components, break down various technical graphs showing how it measures and explain why it’s a decent component or not. I guess that’s not as exciting for most people though. It’s funny when you look at pro audio it’s like they are always 30 or 40 years ahead of the home audiophile market. Problem is that a lot of audiophiles aren’t very scientifically literate in my experience. I’ve met audiophiles who were successful autobody shop owners or had a good city job driving a garbage truck with a full indexed pension those are the guys dropping insane amounts of money on cables or vibration isolation for their DACs.

[@vinnytube1001]

The problem is that audiophile gear is expensive, it's a passion, so unfortunately what happens in the consumer market is that people are looking for that external "permission" to spend the money on the new thing. Like making up your mind about some scientific question and using Google to search for articles in support of your position. At the end of the day, a lot of high-end purchases are emotional, hence people are seeking for content to connect on that emotional level.

[@Skyshakerrrr]

Choices,choices,choices,Vinny Thats why I believe it's better to have 3 modest setups than one. Because that's not such a thing as the best across the board. My personal goal it's to have 2 bookshelf speakers for jazz and the like. One emphasizing tonality over everything else. Another thats a bit above average on bass speed midrange and the highs with solid Soundstage. And of course last but not least a klipsch floorstanding speaker for a lively sound. 🍻 cheers.

[@vinnytube1001]

@@Skyshakerrrr I hear that. I at least want a "reference" system somewhere in my house, and then I can fit for specific purpose in other places. I'm thinking about JBL 708p in my home office, and then I want something with crazy dispersion for my living room. Horn loaded or dipole, or maybe concentric+horn like Tannoy. I know they won't necessarily be neutral but it'll be fun and still sound great.

[@jcaff6963]

Definitely paying attention to specs, always have. However, today, few are doing any independent testing of audio gear (you being an exception). Beyond just the specs, I'm really into trying to understand what the specs mean, what ones are really important and when, how the measurements are made, etc. Most KZbin reviewers are just going with what they hear, but I don't know what that is, I'm not them, I don't have their equipment and how are they setting it up and where? Too many variables. Thanks for this video and others.

[@matthewshean1991]

Specs are most important but if doesn’t work in your room I think the next important thing is companies like svs with their return policy.

[@SorikuXIII]

Video is 100% on point and specs and SCIENCE matter otherwise it's all uncontrolled chaos. And obviously a neutral measuring speaker will always have the best chance to sound the best chance in any environment, including over other speakers, and to most people...which is why this matters.

[@mikegoddard7354]

I didn't realize this situation was even in play, disregarding that. I know this gentleman does put this out there, but I see that the topic itself coincides with what he is fully aware of. He has a video which is a year plus old, he talks about how the harman test itself has really swayed his beliefs and not only himself but the test was done with speakers that people in that room listening designed and they were unable to target what speaker they were listening too. I am not sure if he is referring specifically to throw specs out the door, but under the conditions of the harman test if you do not know what you are listening to and yet you prefer a speaker over the actual best sounding one available it does make some sense in the commentary that is being made. It's a shocking revelation that the people who designed a speaker and have listened to it so much were unable to determine something they made sound the way it does. I am not one to disregard measurements, however I think the ideology behind these statements is that even a not so perfect sound may sound good to you and that's that. Let it be. I think as well in consideration for someone new to audio, who is primarily only looking into reviews to choose what they want needs to have a major consideration that the person knows no better. In the case of they may have never owned a pair of speakers. I'm not saying give the guy a speaker with horrible measurements and he will love it and that may be the case when you have no other knowledge on what to go off of. Rather that if he bought something from a main stream manufacturer in todays market he would enjoy it and be unaware of any of its flaws. Only once you become a seasoned veteran and have done your paces with many speakers and understand the measurements those speakers come with that you yourself would be able to discern what is for you for certain. Some people wish to not do this and if it sounds good to them screw it. Look on the complete opposite spectrum and you have people saying a 3000 dollar speaker cable makes their system sound amazing when 300 dollar cable produces the very same if not better results. The bias comes in both directions and I am not here to debate about speaker cables but we understand the fundamental of your[Gene] opinion on it vs others. Yet, he does agree that theirs no point in buying expensive cables. I'm not here to back up or protect anyone, but when most of the ideas a person holds is equal to your own and reality they are not trying to lead people down the wrong path or provide faulty information. Lastly, on the other end of this we see how many people are killing themselves with this information and taking the joy out of the end goal which is enjoying the music and subjecting themselves to second guessing their every purchase and do not really even understand how to read or comprehend this information.

[@ridirefain6606]

Thanks for taking the time to illustrate how measurements correlate to something that will most likely sound good. Point taken, that being said I remember the Krell (I think from the early 2000's.) that had outstanding specs. But I did not like them, and preferred the sound of the earlier models that did not measure as well. That being said, before even considering a product I start by studying its measurements. I like an understanding of its engineering and performance level. In short, is there some sort of objective proof of their claims and design goals.

[@johnholmes912]

there is no correlation between any objective quantity and the associated subjective quantity

[@ridirefain6606]

@@johnholmes912 I do not think anyone here disagrees. Nor am I attempting to. An correlation is merely an statistical likelihood. Plagued by margins of error and possible design flaws. It is not, empirical scientific fact, nor measure in the first place. You cannot quantify someone's personal taste. Only asses the odds. Go figure, there are amps with outstanding specifications, that convey a sound I do not care for. However, there are far more that measure exceedingly well, where I find their sonics to be gorgeous. Therefore, I do not discount the information that is on the spec sheet. There is an high probability that if it has great measurements I will like it. All that being said, I am going to return to the subjective. No matter how well something specs out, before it goes into my rack. I have to love (Subjective) how it sounds. Period.

[@Audioloon]

Hello and thanks for this video. I am in the camp that Specs and Measurements are secondary considerations for my understanding of what the final product is supposed to be - the finished product built to the design of the engineer's concept. So, I do find specs like ohm ratings and db rating to be important as I do have to consider whether my amp will be capable of driving the speaker. Generally, I only consider purchasing speaker rated at 6 ohms and 8 ohms with db efficiency rating of 86 db and preferably higher. I do disregard all 4 ohm speakers because I don't want to have to deal with their need for more power. Otherwise, it's all about subjective listening and finding enjoyment in speaker performance or not. I've never considered to choose between buying speaker A or speaker B based on their respective graphs. Back in the 80's when Boston Acoustics had their A series, I choose to buy the A60 over the A40 because I preferred the auditory performance of the A60 over the A40. In that B.A. series it was the A100 that I desired the most but lack of $$$ reverted me back to the A60's. Currently I have a pair of Wharfedale D320's that I very much enjoy. I've owned so many different brands of speakers both bookshelf and floor standers but have only really liked a handful. I don't know if the graphs of B.A. A60, Definitive Technology BP10, Mirage M190i, Mordaunt-Short 902i, and Dali Ikon 2 MK2 are similar or dissimilar to each other or even to the D320's. But I don't care what the graphs are like since I enjoy(ed) listening music through each of them. I enjoyed this video and respect that others in audio land do value specs and measurements greatly. :)

[@Audioholics]

It's always best if you have an impedance graph since many so called "8-ohm" speakers are really 4-ohm speakers like I measured with the Infinity Primus P363s.

[@Audioloon]

@@Audioholics Agreed.

[@SuperRandomHobbies]

Great video! Lots to learn hear. I really liked you mentioning Harman's predictability correlation between objective data and subjective listening.

[@CobraChamp]

Bravo Gene! Very well said summary of this highly contentious topic.

[@brucermarino]

WONDERFUL! The channel to which you refer used to be more about subjective aesthetics than a deep understanding of acoustics, psychoacoustics, etc. Thanks for standing up for objective reality as much as we can attain it :-)

[@LA-db9xj]

I'm neither rich nor fortunately am I close to being poor. Usually for me with most things that I need and want the formula is as follows. This applies to all of the major expenditures in my life. I recognize my need or want. I set my budget(what I can comfortably afford). I do my extensive research and educate myself on what is available for my budget. I make my purchase(usually a sales price) comfortably feeling that I'm getting the most for MY money. I then enjoy what I have done. I realize that there are others that may have more resources or place a higher importance on something than I do. So i.e., I stay in my lane. Yes specs matter to me. But staying within my budget matters also. Things change so fast and I personally cannot keep up with all the changes. There is always going to be a bigger house, newer car, more expensive suit, higher specs on TVs, speakers and so on. If you cannot be happy with what you have, you will always be chasing the next "thing". I choose to happy with what I have over chasing the proverbial carrot of never enjoying the moment. Following this formula leaves me happy and satisfied with what...I did. This is just my take, to each there own. Be happy people!

[@MendeBerlin]

You are right in a broad sense. You need measurements to predict a sound of a speaker, headphone, etc. Otherwise you would need a bunch of "review listeners" who tell you, how it sounds to them. And then you would have to find the one "listener" who has a simular hearing impression a yourself. I don't think that would make things easier. But of course a speaker has to work for the individual listener and graphs and specs only can guide you in the right direction (but that they can). To the Robinson channel: I think he targets more the would-be audiophiles and interested casual listeners with deep pockets. So he tries to explain a lot of stuff at basic level - not saying that is a bad thing. The more people that care about good sound, the better the products offered will get.

[@SaifeeAkil]

I think specs are good on paper. Once the speaker is in my room and my family and friends are listening they don't ask me what the specs are. They listen and comment if they were enthralled by what they heard or not. Not even once have I been asked on what my speakers sensitivity rating is. I kinda agree with Andrew's take on it. You listen to music... Not to specs.

[@Clint3571]

I would love to see a blind test where you rate speakers based on numbers and then rate the same ones by listening to them.

[@rhirschey]

That’s what the research Harmon has done, does!

[@Clint3571]

@@rhirschey Yes, but I would like to know how other manufacturer's ratings are compared to each other. I also think that high-end companies probably have much more realistic ratings, due to stringent testing parameters, when compared to mid-range speakers.

[@EEee-nv6jj]

Look for audio science review. They use the objective criteria mentioned in this video and you get subjective feedback of the reviewer that listens to the speaker. A bit disappointing is that the "objectively best" speaker did not get a positive advice. Hence, the objective measure might not be perfect at predicting "very good" but it can predict "not good".

[@WiiNV]

Specs and measaurent's certainly mattered when diagnosing faulty electronics in early 2000's, largely due to high failure rate of Capacitors made with defective electrolytic capacitors made between 1999 and 2007. This period was named Capacitor Plague for good reason, as this affected

[@homeboi808]

Specs: No Measurements: Yes However, so many people think a single on-axis measurement is what that means. It’s not, it’s the listening window, the early reflections, the directivity control, etc.

[@WiiNV]

If specs didn't matter the Electronic's industry probably wouldn't have suffered from severe Capacitor Plague, leading to high failure rates during that period! 🤯

[@homeboi808]

@@_kardus I agree. Amplifier rating is typically more on the truthful side (the parameters though may be non-standard such as allowing higher distortion, cheap amps use 10% THD). It is speakers where it varies a great deal, not to mention production tolerances, some speakers can perform pretty differently when comparing 2 of the same model. I maintain a spreadsheet using the speaker data over at ASR to compare published sensitivity ratings to a standardized parameter. On average, the advertised spec is around 1.5dB higher. sites.google.com/view/speaker-headphone-data/speakers/speaker-sensitivity?authuser=0

[@Nick-sk1qp]

Stop you’re all right! Everyone’s view point matters, and it is up to the consumer to decide what information they need to make a purchasing decision. Where spec come into play for many individuals is based upon the quality $$$ of the product, if you are spending $50 K on a system spec’s matter vs $1 K system. Most individuals do not have the background to understand spec’s and rely on experts to steer them in right directions. But until you test out the speakers in your own listening room usually will tell the listener if the sound appeals to the them. It’s complicated!

[@dpockaj]

Hey Gene. Great explanation and good video! Can you show us in a video how to take measures of a loud speaker on and off axis? I’ve been wanting to do this for a while and would like to get it right.

[@xavdeman]

Spinorama right?

[@Wolfpack-N]

I watched both videos and I see both points.... I think that the point wasn't that specs are pointless I think it was more centered around the point that the specs don't matter if you like the way the speaker sounds. I thin you are very technical and willing to do the work to get everything right. Most people don't even know why a speaker doesn't sound good in their room. I am young in the audio department for sure and I would never discredit science (great NDT quote by the way). I think their is one point y'all disagreed on and agreed at the same time. One of the reason's he said the specs don't matter is because there isn't a universal standard. You said that more companys need to get on board with doing specs and doing them right and one standard. I think you both agree there. Either way I enjoy the content that both of you put out for different reason. I am medical so, the science you put behind your channel draws me and thanks for the info with balancing seals and ported subs. This lead to me doing a lot of research and work to get mine to sound right in multpile listening postions. You're channel is awesome keep up the good work.

[@Audioholics]

many thanks Carl and yes we need better standards in audio to adhere too. I try my best to push this forward but it would help if other Audio websites and YT channels also joined our voice of unity on this topic.

[@rusedgin]

You are, of course, correct. And your argument can be used in every product. From TVs to sneakers, insurance to cruise liners "specks" or contract wording matters e most don't care...

[@GIGyards]

New intro chime 👎🏻 Old intro chime 👍🏻 Video and information 👍🏻, outtakes 👍🏻👍🏻

[@VioletGiraffe]

[@vinnytube1001]

There's also a fallacy to mistake controversy among experts with controversy in an entire field. For example, just because there's a debate over, say, dB/W/m vs dB/2.83V/m type sensitivity ratings, doesn't mean that the measurement is useless/debatable. And it does seem like a straw man to focus on a FR curve and ignore dispersion, distortion, and other such measurements. Some people may just prefer low distortion + wide dispersion, or they may prefer tube distortion + narrow dispersion (high separation). But even in all of these cases, measurements can help people narrow down their shopping lists, if not make a final determination without an audition, if reliable measurements were more universally available. OTOH, I have experienced for myself, preferring speakers or headphones that didn't seem to measure as well as another pair. But I still can see that, plotted along a trend line, the better something measures, the more likely I am to prefer it in the general case. And I arrive at that from looking at measurements done well after I've had experience with gear, not by looking at measurements and then deciding. Then again, I understand some of the backlash to objectivism. I see one YTer who tries to measure speakers, but uses a naive approach and all of his response curves look similar - clearly his room is dominating the data, not the speakers. And sometimes the community at ASR will obsess over achieving measurements well into the inaudible range, like hyping a $1200 amp with 0.009% THD over a $400 amp with 0.05% THD.

[@davidrodgers8711]

I think the tests and measurements that Amir is doing on DAC's, reclockers, purifiers, power conditioners etc is very important to the budget conscious like me by saving us wasting money on "improvements" that we don't need and wont make much difference. I bought budget DAC recently that every reviewer rates highly. In fact it actually measured well by ASR and in some cases better than a lot more expensive DACs that have rave reviews. But I honestly didn't notice any difference in SQ which gives me some comfort that spending a lot of money on a DAC is better spent elsewhere, in my case a new Amp (with good DAC chips on board).

[@perosa99]

Wow, the video really struck some sensitivities. Although firm in tone, I thought the message was respectful and offered a legitimate counterpoint for discussion. Overall, when balancing out the sides of the argument, I will always support the scientific approach, even to a very subjective matter as the appreciation of sound reproduction. Gene with a more objective take on things, which seems to mostly land in high price tag territory. Andrew with a more “every day man” approach that resonates strongly on people despite a more subjective emphasis. I sincerely enjoy and appreciate the content in both sites. Thank you Gene

[@Audioholics]

Yep Andrew does an amazing job at videography and orating. He covers every day affordable products which is a smart strategy. I just disagree with him on his viewpoints of the importance of good specs and proper measurements of audio components. I probably could have used a little less flare in my presentation but sometimes I get worked up to defend the science.

[@perosa99]

@@Audioholics it’s the heated arguments of people with a passion for audio. We are witnessing the birth of politics in audio 😁

[@GrimReaperEntertainment1]

I have a question and I couldn't find the answer anywhere. I've had a 5.1 since 2001. I still have the speakers and they've been great. I barely scratched the surface of Hz and db's. My floor standing speakers are the Sony SS-MF400H my center channel is a Bose VCS-10 my rear's are Bose 201 Series IV. My question is what be the best frequency to put them at. Should 80 be good for the back and center channel.

[@MassimoTava]

What about the guy that sells speaker kits and upgrades? How much difference can someone make over the manufacture by upgrading crossover components?

[@DF-et4gs]

Ohh I think I know who you're talking about 🧐 I like the information I get from that channel, he really knows his stuff.

[@Shawn-wy1pb]

Crossover upgrades make a very substantial improvement to the sound quality. I was using a 20 year old B&W speakers and after much research bought the new Wharfdale EVO speakers, since I wasn’t using the old pair anymore I decided to upgrade the internals and guess what my Wharfdale is for sale as I write this comment. My B&W Speakers are now much smoother on the treble, need about 15% less power for the same sound level and no listening fatigue after extended sessions.

[@mobilemcsmarty1466]

easy to know, because they're measured before then after! :D easy to understand also, because manufacturers make speakers (the rest of any gear too) for profit first, perfection ..next. so for my money, I expect any claims to be backed up by data. if "just use your ears" is the suggested standard, then it's an invitation to be swindled. I already know that my ears (and any "golden ears" too) are easily fooled and then outmatched by even cheap measuring instruments. I won't waste my time to "hear" until measurements meet claims and standards. only *then* will I try, evaluate, and maybe gush superlatives.

[@scottivlow9962]

I'm wondering if Bookshelf speakers that are sold only online and for less than $60 should I rely on the specs? I believe the specs to be true but the description says they were tested at 8 ohm and with a photograph ifrom the the back of the speakers shows that they are 6 ohm speakers at some wattage. I don't know if the descriptiion is all that truthful or not. At 6 ohms should a description at 4 ohms be used instead of 8 ohms. I still plan on buying them because they 3 way speakers. I never bought anything that included soundgraphs from the manufacture. Everything I ever bought just gives you decibals, and hz range. On Vizio specs they don't tell you any detail information on the subs speaker range or what the SPL is. They just tell you it's 101 db. When I bought both my Vizio M-series soundbars the only thing I cared about is getting the most from Dolby Atmos. With a Sub and Satellite speakers that was all I cared about. When I heard and read about the Vizio M5.1.2 I didn't care if the sub had to be tested outside or not. I justed wanted a soundbar with 11 speakers, with a sub and satellites in all black and for the reviews were really postive from CES that year.

[@masterchef6694]

I totally agree with you. The speaker manufacturers and reviewers like you should get together and come to a consensus for minimum specs to de disclosed citing the measurements as per a established process. I was shocked to know that klipsh heresey can go down only to 60hz

[@Audioholics]

CEA-2034 is the closest thing to such a representative standard. Getting it enforced by manufacturers is the challenge which is why we need to move the needle to demand not less specs and measurements IMO. The Klipsch are designed for high sensitivity and hence sacrifice bass extension.

[@drummingdrumtech9642]

I don’t discredit specs at all, but when it comes to speakers, what I hear matters most. I’ve heard and gotten very good measurements but they just don’t sound good. What I got from his video is: yes you can pay attention a lot of attention to the specs, but 1 don’t let it dissuade you from a speaker that you want to try or have, 2 if that speaker sounds bad in your listening space, maybe it’s not the speaker for your space, 3 sometimes a speaker can sound better than what the specs would lead you on. I agree that there should be more accurate and consistent specs, but at the end of the day, it’s how you appealing the sound of the speaker is. Specs matter, but specs are not-end-all-be-all. I have experienced the exact same thing he was talking about, a speaker that sounds great but has measures kinda badly.

[@wmalinak]

I do think Andrew simplified, but I reduced much of his vid (& subsequent comments) to 2 points: You can't trust all MANUFACTURERS' reporting ***AND*** Even proper metrics are not the final arbiter (i.e., your room, other kit & preferences matter). I had a look back at Andrew's video...at 2:32 he (like you) acknowledged Harman! [specs] "Pretty simple and helpful right? Well yes and no because not every speaker manufacturer measures their loudspeakers in exactly the same way, nor does every manufacturer have access to exactly the same facilities. For example Harman, the parent company of JBL and Revel, have an anechoic chamber that they use to measure their loudspeakers and aid in their designs whereas" [me paraphrasing] others don't or won't report. I commented on his vid [after lead in of much kit I have and constantly improve]: "HOWEVER, no manufacturer Speaker Frequency Response graphs were consulted! Yet, I DO LOOK at reviewers with standards (e.g., Audioholics) to determine raw Capability (subs that hit nnHz, etc.).." Be Safe (and Keeping Listening!)

[@marksomer5790]

You are right and extremely intelligent !

[@davidmiller1534]

Agree completely that manufacturer specs matter; measurements competently made by independent observers matter more. Listening matters but good luck finding a dealer so observations made by reliable sources (Herb Reichert, Steve Guttenberg for example) are helpful.

[@mladenbasic1]

Great sound you are getting from your mic. Keep using it even on your livestreams.

[@unrein65]

Audiophile: A person who spends hour after hour alone, isolated from family and friends, spending big bucks, feverishly picking pepper flakes out of fly shit on an obsessive quest for that which is unattainable. Do audiophiles ever enjoy the music they play in order to dial in their audio systems? Do audiophiles ever enjoy the equipment they have? It seems like their focus is always not what I have, but what I have to get.

[@KyleKick909]

i'm trying to buy a new tv and it's so difficult because a lot of places only list the basic specs. trying to find out things like nits, response time, and even something as simple as does it have 2.1 hdmi can be difficult to find. i'm glad that there are hardcore dedicated people out there like audiohilics that dig deep and have a website where you can see full specs and reviews.

[@markscott9259]

Samsung 65" or 75" in 4k with built-in Bluetooth. 👍

[@KyleKick909]

So far the Samsung Q80T is at the top of my list. I also like the Vizio P Series which isn't as good but it's half the price and it's still a really good TV.

[@dougg1075]

My Heresy IVs sound amazing. I have a bunch of other speakers Focal, LSA, LS/36a , Boston acoustic ( love those) but the old Heresy IV is my new love. And that’s after years of saying I would never own those after hearing my buddies first generation Heresy.

[@howardskeivys4184]

When I’m compiling a short list of speakers to audition prior to purchase, of course I scrutinise the specifications/measurements. Vut my final purchasing decision is always dictated by my ears and wallet. In my humble experience I’ve found that often a speaker’s acoustic and harmonic properties hold little reflection of it’s published measurements. As regards ultra low bass. There are only a few musical instruments that dip below 40hz. Pipe organ. Euphonium. Acoustic double bass. Electronic synthesised music. So, again, in my humble opinion, the need for ultra low bass in musical reproduction is not paramount. My 2 channel set up includes multiple subs which don’t dip much below 20hz. When it comes to home theatre and special sound effects like the one you mentioned in that Batman film, then I guess that being able to get down to 12hz and lower is of higher priority to the home cinema guru, which I’m not.

[@americanidle1277]

Floyd Toole, Audioholics and Kenny Brown Performance are pretty much my only reading material, all I care about is maximizing my speakers and cars performance!

[@Finn-McCool]

Specs are the reason that a great speaker is greater than the sum total of its parts. Just like a diamond cannot be judged upon a single surface of a single cut creating a single facet. Because the rest can simply be abysmal. For any product to be worth its salt it excels in each "facet". Design Specifications Price Value Features Warranty Workmanship etc etc etc They ALL add up to the product as a whole. For instance who would purchase a speaker that sounded good in the demo room, looked really nice, had a spec sheet full of shiny numbers but was sold "as-is" for goodness sakes!? Now, what if the speaker looked great, sounded great in your home, carried a good warranty but had less than desirable specifications? Would that not give you cause for concern as to the warranty claims and reliability and other random hassles that may crop up? Granted, the specs would need to really be sending some red flags up in a major way in THAT particular instance but that example is a stretch that I would imagine is hardly even plausible. Personally, when in the market to buy, I "look" at each speaker initially with my eyes closed! Then I consider the specs in order to get an accurate idea as to what it might take to power them with sufficient headroom and then the last deciding factor is how well they jive with my own tastes. Perhaps that's why there are so many black rectangles in the market, until you get either in to the showy garbage like the final generation of boomboxes. Or the other end of the spectrum where they actually set the stage for possibly designing the room around them. (I'm looking at you.... Wilson). Just my two cents. -✌🏼

[@rafalobo5308]

When I bought my Monitor Audio speakers I bought them without demoing them, solely on specs and reviews, bass extension, easy listening, etc. And it was a spot on purchase because the specs were true to performance. Specs do matter, but, when are we going to see honest specs across the board of the audio products industry so we can all buy with confidence?

[@boydrijkvan6500]

Thanks for putting this important video out there. I fully agree with all of the points made here. And I have decided: my next speakers will be revel speakers! :-). (I was planning to buy revels anyway, but I am even more confident in my decision knowing that I can support harman in a small way. I really like their scientific approach.

[@dentman67]

I'm glad you made a counter argument to that video. I'm sure he's a nice enough guy but he he's off base on much of what he talks about audio wise. Watch his video on the greatest speakers of the past. Its clear looks are the single most important thing to him.

[@jaytorr6701]

I think Robinson did not convey his message well. But he had a point. We know from years of neuroscience research that expectation bias is stronger than reality. Our brains "shape" what we experience to match our expectations. And to a very large degree this is stronger than measurements. Look at double blind wine testings. Or the famous experiment with the Stradivarious and Guernery violins costing millions each, compared to newly made high end violins. When both the player and the audience where blind to the violin, both the soloist and the audience preferred the 40k new violin than a 12 million Strad... So yes, measurements do matter. But biases can crush them.

[@Audioholics]

Great analogy.

[@jaytorr6701]

@@Audioholics Thanks! I don't want to downplay the importance of measurements. You are absolutely right. They are important for quality assurance and consistency. And, up to a large degree inform expectations of what we will hear. But at the same time, aside expectation bias,there are other factors. For example. Klipsch Cornwalls go down to 40 Hz. The Buchardt S500 can go down to 25 Hz. But listen to a track with a deep acoustic bass and let me know which sounds deeper and more impactful (I assume you have). But physical properties aside, to get to my initial point, the expectation bias is so strong that, up to a point, measurements are primarily a reference point.

[@dillonbray]

Measurements are objective. Listeners are subjective. We should live somewhere in the middle.

[@TylerStout]

Problem with specs is that they never provide how they get the numbers. Like sensitivity is it in room? Anechoic? Most companies don't provide what the number means so you could be comparing apples to oranges which isn't useful. Or even frequency response is that measured on axis, off axis, in room, anechoic? That's why independent reviewer's measurements are so important as they can provide a basis for apples to apples comparisons.

[@Nightjar726]

Well one thing to take into consideration is. If you were designing a speaker, where the hell do you start from? If you already made a speaker and it gets rave reviews and sells well. How do you know what made it great? How do you know how to make it better? Make the second version of it?

[@oneandaboveall]

Good video buddy ...Love when people use science to put the ultimate smack down on people and big companies trying to pull the wool over people's eyes . Hope to see more videos on the anthem pre amp you are using to :)

[@Kami84]

This must be about Andrew Robinson. I listed to his channel as well and realized that this video came out about a week after his. I did also think his stance that specs don't matter is a bit extreme. I do understand that sometimes manufacturers fudge data to make their stuff seem better, but objective measurements by independent 3rd parties should give you at least some idea about some aspects that you would care about when shopping.

[@anonymohipp9097]

Thanks. Couldn't agree more. What are the best measuring/engineered speakers? Are there brands that generally always trustworthy.

[@Audioholics]

I recommend reading our product reviews to come to that conclusion yourself. Many good brands out there for sure.

[@erod9088]

The problem with specs is that you can't actually hear them all in reality, and the method they're determined varies from one manufacturer to another. Otherwise, yes they matter, but they're rarely accurate. Definitive Technology does criminal things with their specs, as does Klipsch with their sensitivity exaggerations.

[@Adream-lf3mw]

Sound United let's Definitive Technology get away with that?

[@davidarbona239]

I agree with audioholics. The key to it all is Industry standardization of not only the measurement techniques but what is to be measured. This way it’s all a level playing field. Every single other profession (engineer, medicine, aerospace) does this, why is audio so far behind?

[@solarfall2728]

I think you may be taking things a bit out of context. I don't think the other reviewers are saying measurements don't matter. The problem is we can't measure everything. And from what I see, people that are really into specs don't like to hear that. For example, I'm very sensitive to timbre, especially in the upper frequencies. I can't tolerate a system where cymbals don't sound like cymbals, or vocals have un-natural sibilance. This type of thing can't be measured, so I have no choice but to listen. It would be a lot easier if these qualities can be measured. Also, most of us don't seek or ignore good measuring gear. Most of my stuff probably measures very well. One thing I get asked about is the type of measures I take to control the sound qualities I find important. I get, "can't you just EQ the troublesome frequencies?" Unfortunately, no. I have a Behringer deq 24/96 digital EQ and a dbx analog EQ (I don't remember the model.). Neither one does anything to fix the problem. Room treatments don't help either. For me, its all about picking the right components. I also have a counter to your car examples. Some of it I agree with. There are some critical design specs you need to have, but they don't give the complete story. You can have a bunch of cars with very similar specs, but they all drive and feel different. I don't mean to nit pic, but you are a spec guy. The speed rating on a tire is not really a speed rating. Its a heat dissipation rating. For example, a V rated tire isn't speed rated for 149 mph. The rating means it can dissipate heat for 1 hour straight at 149 mph without failing. Its not an indicator of any other type of performance like handling or braking. Also, tire companies play the amp power rating game just as well as audio companies. Tire companies are responsible for rating their own tires. Over time, tires get re-rated to be competitive with the competition. For example, Michelin had a tire that had a 180 treadwear rating. They upped it to 280, then 350, then 400, etc.... Exactly the same tire. No changes were made to it. Just thought you might find it interesting. Maybe we can start a massive truth in tire ratings campaign.

[@bfielder9097]

I'm all for conversation but at times this video seemed like a bit of a personal attack which came off a bit odd and unprofessional.

[@Audioholics]

I got preachy a bit but there is history of this particular YT'er espousing nonsense. He used to review Emotiva gear while also working for the company without disclosing it until he was eventually called out on it. Then he banned other YT'ers that offered polite constructive criticism of the video in question and his wife made untrue claims that the particular YT'er was harassing them.

[@ASSOpid]

It is personal. Gene just mad cause Andrew still has hair.

[@Audioholics]

@@ASSOpid I do wish I had his hair. LOL. He's a good looking charismatic guy.

[@andreasmoller9798]

For me measurements and specs matter, But its not the only thing you can do to decide if you have found a good speaker that suits your taste, i am not fan of neutral sounding speakers, i like a bit of a beighter top and a more lively sound this is just my preference so its up to everyone to decide what work best for them

[@melberg9098]

Thx for the info we need it !!!

[@bfielder9097]

Uh oh. Bout to have an East Coast vs West Coast rap battle in the speaker game.