Why Do Audiophiles HATE the Center Channel?

[@AlexandreLollini]

@13:30 that's it : I never succeeded, and I never heard anywhere a multichannel system that was acceptable for music, and that did not deteriorate greatly the experience when switching from 2.1 to multi. I even tried to use 3 identical bookshelf aligned on the same level, even when the processing does not vacuum everything in the center, as soon as I switch to multichannel, I feel like I need to open the windows. But then when there is a movie : the same : I prefer the impact, the precision, the placement of each noise. The same with gaming, when I am in 2.1 I know where the ennemy is coming from with closed eyes. But I would agree with all the previous points, I probably did not try hard enough, and in the end it's so good in 2.1 that I stopped trying.

[@kmidst_kn6329]

Center channel kicks ass. As soon as I put a 5.1 system together, that center channel instantly brought out the dialog. Previously I would be turning the volume up and down constantly because the dialog was too quiet and the action was too loud. Now it's perfect.

[@AndrewB23]

You need better L&R speakers

[@floz9718]

@@AndrewB23 yep

[@GammonMaster-PcP]

I can’t imagine film without center channel. I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s and I created surround using speakers from stereo and quad. Now that a center is available, I can’t imagine going back to that sound image Great, helpful video!

[@BobbyDazzler888]

99% of centers suck. If your i to high end stereo, theres not much horizontal audiophile speakers available

[@alphacapo]

People don't realize they have to place the center first. Everything else gets placed off of it. That way u don't have to use whatever correction the processor has built in.. Your speakers are all the right distance away. Also don't use a "center channel" speaker . If your using bookshelf speakers. Use the same bookshelf for a center. If your using a tower use the same tower for your center. I dont like multi channel . I listen to everything in 2.2

[@ednunpourtahmasbi605]

Great video thank you so much. I actually have a reason for disliking the centre channel not covered here. I am totally blind, I have no eyesight. What I've found, is that the centre channel is used to draw your attention to events/voices on screen. That's fine I guess and it makes sense, you said yourself have it near/under the display. The problem is, real life sound doesn't work like that and I guess for me I'm very sensitive to that fact. People are rarely dead centre of anything. So I tend to find that a lot of stuff is just dumped into that centre channel and the image isn't life-like. Over the years I've gotten used to it, but I'd much rather prefer people thought about and adjusted the front spread rather than putting so much into one channel that doesn't move and sometimes doesn't even have the same reverb as the rest of the speakers. An example of this can be when someone is speaking from the centre, the reverb is sent to the surround backs, but not really the front left and right. Try turning the centre off in films it's really interesting what is and isn't there :)

[@slickill5738]

I concur as a sighted person, in that often I find myself lowering the output of my center when using multi channel source material and than raising the other channels with a focus on more output from the Front mains. Granted this is in a smaller room. Seems to take some of the "strain" and focus away from the center especially when lower bass is very pronounced and/or "rapid fire" while mids and highs are also present. I run an WMTW center btw with proper crossover points and a sub. The center mixes in FPS video games are the primary culprit for me, as weapon sounds are often mixed very center heavy...additionally many movies seem to be mixed way too much towards the center for my ears. Simply put... To my ears many modern games and movies are mixed with too much center channel bias.

[@peterbaugh51]

I dont need a center speaker. Cross streamed Elacs or equal are superior to center channels. Placed properly. Closer to you than the screen.

[@mivanp2185]

But your tv would be directly in front of you so no matter where the person is on screen the person is still in front of you

[@alphacapo]

Poor mixes exist in music and movies. Great albums get ruined by bad mixes all the time

[@audioprotaro1338]

Great comment. Shows how digital surround processing is still a make-believe.

[@Gt350_]

I absolutely love the center channel. It makes conversations clearer!!

[@martinolson761]

Yes. I am an audiophile that love my center channel. I have B-W 803D's as my mains and the matching center channel (it's huge)...I don't upmix anything. I listen in multi channel stereo or 5.1 surround...on my Marantz processor. Love your content Gene...Even tho I only understand about 85% of what you say...LOL

[@bobdam4478]

for movies and tv i like the center BUT for music i prefer stereo only

[@evankolpack]

I'm a pro audio engineer and studio owner. I don't know much about home audio or 5.1 processing specifically, but I can state with a high degree of certainty that, while sound "quality" is subjective, it's tough to make a rational argument that any content mixed down in, and intended for playback in stereo will be "better" with a center speaker and some kind of L/R processor. The original mix engineer mixed it in stereo on very expensive speakers in a heavily treated control room, the mastering engineer mastered it on even more expensive speakers in an even more heavily treated room, and the original musicians likely tracked it in stereo (headphones). Maybe there's some amazing processors out there that will magically make all or most stereo content sound "better" than the original musicians, mix engineer, and mastering engineer could muster. Maybe if the mix engineer had the option of mixing in LCR they would've done so. But I don't think you need to be a "purist" to acknowledge that content created in stereo, and mixed and mastered in stereo, is going to be technically best received in stereo. Content intended for and mixed with a C speaker, by all means add the center! As for C channel speakers, I never understood why a single point source box with its drivers aligned vertically would be a problem. There would be perfect phase coherence for that single speaker from L to R horizontally in the room. Putting drivers on a horizontal plane introduces phase issues for that single box moving L / R in a room. In pro audio, where phase shifting due to movement in a single point source box can cause freq response peaks/valleys which can cause feedback (usually on wedge monitors), often times coaxial drivers are used. I'm not sure why these aren't used now in C speakers if horizontal phase alignment is such a concern. I get the feeling that much of the C channel speaker market is sales BS or aesthetics.....but again, I work in pro audio, so not an expert in home/hifi/"audiophile" stuff. Either way, great information overall and technically accurate inasfar as I can tell. I just would never use a C channel speaker where it wasn't intended by the highly skilled people who created the content.

[@lloydchristmas4561]

@@evankolpack well, to start 5.1 mixed content includes a center channel. So if you don't have it represented, you might want to turn on the closed caption/subtitles. Think outside of two channels

[@jonathanr2830]

I completely agree. I worked very hard to get EVERY speaker in my 5.1 Sony ES HT setup positioned and calibrated for optimum sound. Yes, it was a process that involved much experimentation and many, many tweaks over time to finally get everything I really wanted from the sound. I suppose many whiny and impatient people would flinch and say that the dirty words just used were "work" and "time." Pretty basic stuff, really. Thank you for all that you do to spread truth, sometimes hard truth in these audio and home theater hobbies that can be so rewarding, when we patiently study, plan, and work for our rewards.

[@mcgreedy01]

Who are “audiophiles”, anyway? Everyone has their own preference when it comes to sound and equipment. Audio is probably one of the most subjective areas there is.

[@soapa4279]

Oh you’ll know when someone is an audiophile, because they won’t stop telling you how bad your setup is and how only theirs is the right one. 😂

[@mcgreedy01]

@@soapa4279 😂😂😂

[@taylamayde]

It sort of is subjective but the engineer is the subjective that cou ts to how something truly is supposed to sound vs preference. Which nothing is wrong with someone's preference but you may miss something going your own way

[@taylamayde]

@Abominable what about the detail you could miss leaning towards your preference

[@taylamayde]

@Abominable exactly which reference speakers are flat but most people don't know what something is supposed to ie instruments and vocal so if they believe a big name brand speaker plays it it has to be correct

[@johnhughes1355]

Conventional HT wisdom says that the center channel is the #1 priority in terms of the budget, because that's where all the work gets done. Whilst this is true, my chosen strategy is to do without the center channel and redistribute that portion of the budget to the mains. This way I can afford to buy no-compromise mains. Which in turn means I get superior sound quality overall, especially for music.

[@joelopez7459]

I've always wondered how 4 solid mains would do or 6 without a center

[@komhst]

Great educational video! Congratulations! Although I am an audiophile and I use my system 70-30 for music, I love the center channel. It's very useful not only for movies but for music as well. Exactly as you analyzed it.

[@carlitomelon4610]

Thanks Gene, BUT: I get decent stereo imagery (phantom centre?) with my 2.2 stereo setups for music. We do use the stereo for tv & movies, but dialogue can suffer. I suspect the 5.1 mixing to stereo. No desire for an HT reciever and all that non-purist jiggery-pokery, but: Would a 3rd mono'd KEF LS50 help? (You didn't cover coaxials;-) Not sure how I would implement that, but my stereo preamp has tape outs... Help? 🎵🎶🤔🎶🎵

[@mrboat580]

I don't hate the center, I just have no use for one. Especially with how much the image has improved with modern speakers and waveguides.

[@Ezekiel43]

I use the phantom center after years with a center because it's too difficult to bring the center high enough with a TV. I don't want to stare up at a TV that's canted downwards. Off-center listening is not a big deal because I barely ever watch with other people anyway.

[@NakeanWickliff]

I think the reason is so much more simple and it’s the fact that 99% of us do not have a screen and or a transparent screen with a speaker behind it. It’s very easy to localized where the center speaker sound is coming from. The illusion of the phantom center makes it seem as though the voices are coming from the screen rather than below, or above it. That’s it, done.

[@nathanielcrutcher]

Thank you! You solved my center channel conundrum. My positioning was fine but my receiver was putting way too much volume into the center when listening to music. I didn’t realize this could be adjusted until you described the setting for center width or spread. It perfectly solved my problem. Now, the Dolby music setting only puts a very low level into the center channel and most into the front left and right speakers, with just enough in the rear for ambience.

[@mivanp2185]

Why are you listening to music from your centre channel. Just go pure direct analogue to 2 channels.

[@williammay8413]

I enjoy my centre channel speaker when movies or video concerts are on but playing music I enjoy my 2 channel system the way it was meant to be .

[@pedrofernandez8729]

I tried surround for music for awhile, but I did not care for it at all, don't even like it for concert DVD's. I switch to 2 channel stereo instead.

[@GadgetyMV]

Yes, #6. That's the fun, the illusion, the fun of it. The first time I heard true stereo phantom center was mind blowing. I love that narrow area. It's almost meditative.

[@horrorfan6710]

I really enjoy watching your videos by the way, the reason why I don't like having a center channel is because their difficult to place and often looks awkward and ending up maybe buying some new furniture just to make is aesthetically pleasing. Also consider myself a two-channel purist.

[@MrDTF]

Hi I am using the same room for music and film. I have experimented with a few different setups over the years. First I had good full range tower speakers and their matching center mounted as high as possible under the small sceen (TV). Later I invested in three identical tower speakers and hang a flat TV from the ceiling. However now I have a 4.0.0 system and I find that best for me. The reasons are: - My stereo setup is of much higher quality than the mulichannel/film setup, so I use different equipment for music and film. I have tried to find a common system that match current qualities but failed so far. I have tested the top if line from several brands. - My stereo setup do not have upmixing capabilities. - An unused center speaker is not good to have. It was a clear improvement when I removed it from the room. - Now I have a large screen that rolls up when not used. There is no place for a center channel. - In most cases there is one or two persons in the room.

[@Edward135i]

I don't like the center because its annoying to place, but thats the problem of owning a TV and not a projector, Also i think part of it is that there's something magical about Left and Right speakers that create a really convincing phantom center.

[@maroskn3008]

Center channel is pointed to your face, not ears which means that you loose the high frequency info compared if the same loudspeaker is pointed to your ear. Make test, run some sound from one speaker and turn your head(nose) towards to speaker and then go slowly towards your ear, on the era position you will feel more high frequencies, more cleaner sound. High frequencies are directional unlike low freq. Center channel contains most of audio information in movie (and music) so if you use it you will loose most of high frequencies information. That is why I never use center channel and I do not recommend it. Different story is if you have big family and you all watch the movie then it is probably needed but if you watch alone then definitely avoid center channel. Use caution with women, they absolutely don't care about your 7.4.2 audio system and they hate loud dynamics in movie, it is disturbing for them.

[@donford486]

Love the center channel. I have a good quality speaker there because when you are watching movie's or KZbin that is where a lot of the action takes place. With my Anthem AVM70 I have another profile for stereo listening that just uses LR and subs. Best of both worlds.

[@shangrilaladeda]

having all your speakers playing is better than just 3 or more

[@dayfornight88]

I love centre channels but there's not enough settings for them these days

[@glenncurry3041]

Glad I waited to the end to reply. Rather than yelling from the beginning! Yes when I want to listen to my "Audiophile" system from a serious 2 channel music only source, I drag my Maggies out, power up the amp beast and move the chair to the best listening spot. Primarily vinyl so I make a time commitment! But they block access to the bedroom and garage. So they can't stay out. Right now in the background streaming from my media server, for regular occasional TV, ... I use a modest soundbar with it's sub and it's rear speakers. And it has a good center channel for movies and what hopefully will soon finally be a winning Packers game!

[@markphilpot8734]

I don’t see hating on center channel use because I don’t have a home theatre setup. What others do is their little red wagon. I don’t have much time for haters and all this negativity. Tastes are different as well as budgets. It isn’t that serious. Like the song says, you go your way and I’ll go my way. Like your explanation of the problems and solutions on this subject. I’ll continue to do the equilateral triangle thing and keep it simple and no fuss. It’s how I roll. There is usually more than one way to address problems. You always address both and you back your words with science and reason. Bravo Gene. Keep fighting that snake oil!

[@mattbrown3549]

Hi Gene, That was an amazing video and it was so informative. I am very pleased to see you come down to the very roots of Home Theatre. I was getting a bit disappointed with some of your very exhaustive videos on room treatment and discussion on in wall sub woofers. While many of us mere mortals would love to do such things, it is simply not practical for various reasons. So thanks again on a video that provides information that I can actually do something with it. Great job!

[@diveranytime]

Great explanation on C. Channels! I’m working on a 5.1.2 system/ Dolby Atmos surround sound for my living room. When I started the idea for a Hi-Fi sound system I was overwhelmed. I reached out to 5 different audio retailers and only 1 said, I’m not selling you anything until I know where, what, the dimensions are, wall material, and what’s in the room. (Which was the correct response). I spent 6 hours or so listening to different speakers, channels, AVRs that matched my ears. It was a long process but well worth the time. I hear things or parts of songs that I never heard before even though I’ve that song 5 thousand times. Even movies you hear dialog clearly while explosions are going of and my floor is rumbling. So, I think correctly selecting equipment setting equipment up properly a center channel will bring a new meaning to audio. It encompasses a person, seducing you in a movie the way the producer/ director had intended. I had several people watch Top Gun Maverick 4K DVD (not streamed) and several times 5 of the guests jumped from their seats. The hi fi sound system / center channel sucked you in the movie. The people watching the movie didn’t know they were in the movie until that moment came when the jumped out of their seats. So yes the center channel is very very important piece of equipment in a hi fi system of your dreams. The center channel I think doesn’t have to be purchased the same day but, it should be planned as a vital component in your system. Maybe get the c.c. before the subwoofer. Mr. podcaster please advise if and how I can send a photo of my setup and tell me the good, bad and ugly. Thank you Rodney

[@impulseproductions1]

There are so many out there saying things that just don't make sense. I've been watching you for months Gene and as usual your right on the mark.. Great job!

[@marksulloway5669]

I am surprised no one brings up the 3 channel wide stage stereo from the original Bell Labs audio work that Klipsch recommended back in the 1960's with a mono center channel about 3db lower in level than the left & right speakers. I heard this arrangement in the Klipsch factory demo room in 1971 set up on the long wall with a pair of K-horns in the front corners and a Belle Klipsch (home version of the La Scalla speaker) in the center. Excellent sound staging across the entire width of the room.

[@Audioholics]

The DSU essentially does this with center spread on. I agree.

[@byron19800]

I currently own an Wharfedale Evo center channel and it sounds amazing. Yeah, it's the one that many consider being the best type of center channel - 2 big woofers on the sides, a tweeter and a mid woofer in the middle. I only use it for movies, not for music and most of the action comes from the center so, yes, this is probably the most important speaker in a surround setup. Also, there are quite a few movie discs out there using the original audio mono tracks; in that case, the center channel must handle ALL the the work. so it's very important what kind of speaker you should choose. And I would add another point/problem to this topic; many people don't take into account the quality of the audio mixing in the first place. Sometimes, no matter how good a speaker is, you just can't avoid a poor quality audio mix. Don't blame everything on the speaker, guys.

[@redrock425]

I've got the same speaker, sounds great and dialogue is much better now. Even better, picking up a second hand one, like new, for £300. Use with Evo 4.2's and a PB1000 sub.

[@genegtaylor]

I'm definitely in the two channel purist category. The thing is, as a single guy it really doesn't matter to me that the phantom center has a narrow sweet spot. I can sit in the prime seat every single time. For me that's part of the beauty of home theater, I can have a private screening. So from that perspective, a phantom center is way better than an actual center channel that is less than ideal.

[@off_key88]

I've also heard Anthony Grimani talk about a 2.5 way center ch speaker, where the mids are 2 x drivers and tweeter in the middle, but the mid drivers are not separate ranges of frequencies. One driver covers all mids, and the second one is crossed over to handle only upper mids. The center speaker I have is like this, but in the specs, they call it "Quasi-3 way". I haven't tried it yet, but I think it will work well, since the speaker has 90 degree horizontal dispersion. I have an OLED TV, so it will have to be placed directly under the display (as best possible).

[@jessicaembers924]

I've got no use for a center channel. Don't hate it, but this can be achieve by panning the track of desired Center Audio in the middle of your left & right speakers during recording.

[@Audioholics]

True only at MLP. Off axis, you need a center as the anchor for dialog.

[@johnhughes1355]

Hi guys, Gene has started a hare running here. Great fun! The legit way to test and compare alternatives is by means of instantaneous, level matched, blind, A/B testing. Since watching Gene's video, I have been comparing the performance of my basement HT with and without the centre channel. For me, it is as easy as toggling the Music Mode button on my remote back and forth between Surround Mode and Stereo Mode. I have a Marantz SR5015 configured 7.1 in a fully treated room with full EQ. Without divulging my findings and giving the game away, I'd love to hear what others discover, Gene included.

[@billyz28fan82]

Gene I run a 7.1.4 setup and my imaging is great. The center channel makes a huge difference just don't buy a cheap speaker. My yamaha rx8a does a great job Just had to dial it in to my taste.

[@RobertR3750]

I may put in a center, but I'd probably only use it when other people are watching a movie. Since it's almost always just me listening (or another person sitting dead center behind me), why would I need a center? Dialogue already seems to come from dead center. With respect to audio, my prepro has NO "center spread" setting. I'd listen to NO center with music.

[@ElitePCDesign]

Hello! Should the center be slightly behind the mains to create and arc or should all 3 speakers be inline?

[@Audioholics]

Yes I like doing that as long as you properly time aling.

[@Bradimus1]

I put mine in such a position as to be as far from the wall as I can get it and so it won't reflect of my media center. I let the receiver time align. I figure the room and the stuff in it is more consequential than lining up with the mains. They're pretty close anyway.

[@Cakebattered]

It really doesn't matter as long as you are properly measuring the distances you are from each speaker and inputting that data into your receiver or pre/pro. If you are properly placing your mic, then the receiver will do it for you.

[@paradoxicalcat7173]

Center channel rules! Why? At the end, speakers can only produce so much sound at once. I think it has such an impact, I think all audio should be recorded as tri-channel and not merely dual-channel. You are absolutely correct in that balancing the center channel is CRITICAL to getting it sounding right! People don't think to do this, because the L/R channels "just work", but a properly levelled and balanced center is just MAGIC. I've actually got to the point that I prefer the up-mixed sound to just regular 2-channel.

[@itisjustacomment]

I learnt early on the centre channel is for voices so it's needed. My tannoy centre speaker is Fig 1. I have 7.2 set up, and it's just overkill. It's really. Setting up a good 5.1 Properly is just as good. I have 4 large speakers 55 cm x30cm x 35 12" bass drivers work for me. I got rid of 2 extra' fronts '. Works better for my room, I guess it's what you like and want. You are right. The setup is better for speakers. At least my old Sony app has an amazing setup setting and the ability to switch to 2 ways, or 2.1, rear off, bass off. Two fronts on or just left and right.

[@philgale1752]

I built a spandex screen and sit 10ft away , can accommodate a 7ft spread . Behind are my stereo speakers . Great imaging , L/R/U/D voices and effects , I think are more natural as you're in the screen , there are no distractions . I am a single listener who enjoys a phantom centre .

[@LYNXHQ]

Isn’t 99% of music recorded to be played back in stereo? All the studios i see have producers using stereo to create the mixes and masters.

[@supersportimpalass]

Honestly I’ve found the most enjoyment in using my 2.1 setup with movies rather than the complex “surround” systems with multiple speakers. I really don’t feel I’m missing out that much and sure don’t miss not having to spend money on all the extra gear.

[@CaptainCrunch823]

Great topic and discussion Gene! I was previously displeased with the center channel until I upgraded my front stage to KEF Reference and spent the time to make sure everything is placed and setup properly including height, angle and eq.

[@PJthePlayer]

I've been running a 4.1 system for many years with Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II mains, Vandersteen VSM-1 rears, and a HSU Research VTF-3 MK4 subwoofer. As an avid gamer and movie and music fan I have never missed having a center channel.

[@travisdeeze]

Dolby and DTS should've gotten rid of the center channel with the advent of object based audio. A center left and right and a front left and right makes more since. Plenty of room under my 65 inch. Dialog would shift side to side without having to shift away from the screen to use the fronts. With music you would have a very wide stereo image yet still have anchored vocals due to phantom imaging. I believe the defunct Sony Dynamic Digital Sound utilized this concept with a center channel.

[@mrboat580]

It was good to hear you say that you build from 2 channel music outwards or that you listen to just mains sometimes. I had it figured you were more about HT all of this time. For me, 2.1 sort of replaced the need for a center for music with how well the mains seem to produce the phantom center now relieved of much of the sub bass. Even just using subs as fill below 40hz on a well performing 3-way makes a difference.

[@DrMackSplackem]

I'm a #6, but only because I know almost nothing about home theater systems. All of my experience comes from listening and mixing in purely stereo environments, so most of my information about multi-channel audio derives from watching content like yours. I do own a 5.1 setup and I'm eager to employ it once I can match it with a suitable space, so I thank you for making videos like these.

[@baloosd]

phantom center ftw. running without center for 20+ years. with full range L and R at the edges of the screen, panning and presence is just better.

[@Spkrdctr]

Gene! Very good video. Fantastic free advice for everyone. Keep up the good work!

[@MrNorcal81]

With 2 track music, I've usd the Auro-2D up-mixer. I have a 5.1.4 system with SVS Prime Elevations as front and rear heights. With music, using the heights often doesn't sound very good so I use the Auro-2D up-mixer which ignores the heights in favor of the core 5.1 system. The results can be very good to excellent with room filling sound without the heights make it too "busy".

[@tgarfner3020]

When I set up my home theater I really thought about the LCR. Center channels have always been a dilemma, I've spent from $50 to $500 on them and was never happy with the performance. No matter orientation, placement, type of center channel design, nothing ever seemed up to it. It was either weak in comparison to the towers or would draw all the attention to it during certain playback. My solution was to order four of the front towers. I use one for each right and left and two for center channel. This so that I can have directionality and tune-ability to the room itself. Much more of a full field of center channel sound. Zero off access problems or attention draw to the center. It took some manual measuring to get them aligned to one another but after that I just have them both wired to a dedicated amp. Dropped the gain like 6db and MCACC did it's thing and I could never go back. As a side note, I did have them spanned lengthwise under the screen as a center and this worked well but did not create a vertical sound field near what having both upright does.

[@ryanr6240]

How did you connect the 2 center channels? Did you connect them to the same binding posts. I want to use 3 bookshelves for LCR but all the ones I'm looking at come in pairs.

[@tgarfner3020]

@@ryanr6240 Both center speakers are wired independently to their own amp output. L/R have independent amps and then a 12 channel drives surrounds, heights, centers. I had them wired together in an amp before(both speakers wired in parallel) but because of the staging of my room I went to independent channels so that I could tune it better. I have wanted to try three in an array to get full spread but never have found a single tower to match what I have. I have about 60° off axis that is true from the center out using two.

[@johnshaw359]

The centre channel does all the R+L (mono) signals the Dolby matrix steers the remaining R and L signals to the front L&R speakers, the R-L (out-of-phase) signals goes to dual mono surrounds using pro-logic type processing, pro-logic was based on the 70s quadraphonic analogue algorithm AFAIK. When listening to native 2 channel stereo or mono material of any sort, use pro-logic or bypass the cinema mode for normal stereo processing. I have a split system, so I use the centre and surrounds channels while listening to music via the main L+R speakers.

[@richardgrumbine4867]

I am mostly a music person... with a 5.2.4 system. I find I like listening to unmixed music using a Yamaha CX A5100 in 11 channel stereo for up mixing 2 channel music... and Neural X for listening to up mixed 5.1 sources... sometimes i forget to turn on my effects amp and my center is not actually working... and find I dont miss it a ton... but I do like the extra depth and dispersion the surrounds give... so maybe I would be fine with a 4.2.4 system LOL... but yeah... mostly keep it on... and if you can use 3 identical speakers across the front - full disclosure mine are not identical... not even identical series of the same brand...all are Dali but I can not afford the Rubicon Vocal yet... so have a used Ikon Mk II for the time being and mostly it seems fine...

[@sals26]

Dynamite Video as always Gene! My 5.2.4 system is used and tuned for it's best performance with music. I enjoy movies but only watch one or two a month. (I watched Marz Bros Monkey Business last night but I don't think it counts. LOL ) Shame about the Center Channel Haters out there, same about the MULTICH Haters. Todays immersive mixes take music listening and enjoyment to a whole new level. It goes beyond belief that anyone could listen to a good Multich music mix on a good system and not appreciate it? BTW your hints over time have added a lot to my personal enjoyment. I had no idea about Dolby's Center Spread till you brought it to my our attention. And now your remarks on correct Auro3D settings, (I have a new Denon X4700H), will most likely improve my up-sampled sound with it. Denon said to use Small for "pop" music but now I'll try Med and Large to check out the front soundstaging, Thanks Again! May the Surround Force Be With You. ;) Sal1950

[@dunnst]

I tried the center spread and it sounds way better - pretty much as you desrbided it, almost seamless. I used to always listen in 5.1, before I purchased a pair of PSB X2T. Since than, I alway listen to stereo music in 2.1. Somehow it sounds more right, when the two speakers create a wall of sound in front of me. Besides, my side speakers are not at all so good, as the fronts.

[@drummerdoingstuff5020]

Btw I found the AVR at a pawn shop for 40$ and found infinity primus p362 on eBay in immaculate condition for 75$ I use dual 12 inch subs and I’m building a new center now but have an old kenwood se 32ht and a sound bar dedicated to center using line level and external amplifier, sounds good but it auto shuts off so I gotta find remote and turn it back on a lot

[@CUBEoneVX]

i have 3 LCR for L-C-R lol. I hate when center speaker has a different sound profile from the left and right speakers. Specially on slow moving sounds on movies like a V8 car running from left to center to right, you can hear the different between the center speaker and the side speakers, it takes the immersion out. I dont have a big room, i dont have a big budget, I bought 3 Bic America FH6 and 4 Bic America FH-65B for my surrounds and they work perfect, the front sound is Clear and clean. The FH-65B has a more bassy sound (the speaker is ported the LCR are closed) so they work good for rears and side rears. Bic America F12 Sub and my reciever is aYamaha TSR-700. I'm Extremely happy with my setup, i just wish the room was bigger. All my speakers are at the same height and like 6 inches above my ears..

[@wa2368]

This is a very good video, i.e., another one of your best. Thanks Audioholics.

[@DQ-su6qf]

Currently 2 Klipsch Fortes on each side of my 65” plasma with the tweeters & mid range horns half way up..over the years have used 3 fortes, all in line under the tv..2 speakers with tweeter & mid horns positioned mid screen works best for me..

[@kirkcunningham6146]

I have a Pro-Audio BBE Sonic Maximizer hooked up to my JBL center channel. If you know about the product and what it does, it works really well. No matter how bad the mix in movies, you always hear dialogue and clarity. I also have one hooked up to my mains.

[@slyfoxx8540]

Only ever used a centre channel with my Sony trinitron in 97 and that put me off so went with pro logic music and have done since in a 4.1. But have decided lately to go with a 5.1 from arendal and hopefully I'll like it this time considering it'll be a actual proper centre speaker. (The Sony 1 was about 8 inch wide lol)

[@gpower]

I have my system setup in 3.1 with Rotel RSX1056, Epos M12i mains, M8 centre, and PSB Subsonic One. Overall my system sounds really good but, I do find that some things, particularly acoustic music, sound so much better in 2 ch mode. There's an improvement in width, depth, and imaging that just makes music sound more live.

[@avsystem3142]

My center channel speaker is a Polk Audio Signature Series S35 Center Channel Speaker. The driver layout isn't at all like any of your examples. It has a single tweeter in the center and three mids on each side of the tweeter. I have a 7.1 system where there are two "height" speakers. My receiver has a feature called "dialog lift". That allows feeding a selectable amount of the center channel speaker feed to the height speakers. It can be adjusted to make dialog seem even more "centered" on the video monitor.

[@nikolatesla3968]

Great tips, Gene! The drivers in my center channel speaker are of your recommended configuration. It's on a shelf directly under my flat panel, so its tweeter is positioned a little lower than the tweeters in my L/R towers. But dialog and effects panned across the stage in videos progress smoothly without any timbral or volume shifts. All seems well integrated in these respects. Nevertheless, when listening to music, I find that I prefer only a phantom center, even though I upmix all of my stereo music content to immersive audio. My pre-pro offers multiple methods for upmixing stereo recordings to multichannel, including the AnthemMusic upmixer, which utilizes all of the speakers EXCEPT the center speaker, and is the one I prefer for the most convincing music presentations. Even AnthemVideo, which does use the center speaker, doesn't sound as natural. DSU with some center channel spread would be my second choice for music upmixing after AnthemMusic, but vocals and some featured instruments don't sound quite as convincing to me with DSU. And I completely agree with you with respect to DTS Neural X. I consider it, by far, the least desirable upmixer available to me for music. Not only is the center channel overpowering, but so are all of the surrounds.

[@canweshoot]

I'm with Floyd Toole on this subject. He largely abandoned dedicated one-seat listening because it doesn't realistically fit his lifestyle and most folks' unless a dedicated listening room. He prefers living with fine listening from multiple seats in his room/area; fine listening over an area rather than one seat. I fully subscribe to that, as I like to sit in various places, or even stand. That can be achieved with a well designed, well calibrated multi-channel system...including a center. I agree with the host that the best results come from identical LCRs. But LCRs don't have to be behind AT screen if they are powerful bookshelf size, especially if properly installed in a very good/sturdy baffle wall design. Room correction can easily compensate for the boundary effect and provide excellent/powerful linear response down to 70Hz to 80Hz. Rarely mentioned, except by Anthony Grimani, but the final calibration step of delays so that a phantom image is centered between each of the LCRs AND the LCRs and the surrounds makes a huge difference in 2-ch and multi-channel performance. It's not uncommon to play gated pink noise between a pair and the phantom image be off, despite what your tape measure says. A shift usually of only a tenth of a foot or so makes a complete shift of phantom image location. This takes some time and effort, but really pays off and permits listening to upmixed or multi-channel sources from multiple seats in your area because that center channel is now an asset without degrading the L/R listening.

[@ultum4tegunz]

My issue is tv stand I use doesn’t have space for a center and and avr. Table top stand don’t allow 7.5” height. And can’t wall mount my tv . Excellent video!!!!! I sit equal distance from main left& right towers, phantom. I still prefer a center . No space for it.

[@michaelmonstar4276]

Just see it like this: Higher number of speakers is higher resolution. - Yes, it might complicate things more and it might become less "pure" in a way, but here's the reason I say that. - There was a THX-engineer I think it was... from the older days anyway, who said that going higher in audio-resolution (as in the specification, bits and hertzeses) doesn't add much anymore. As in, we've passed that threshold of diminishing returns. But instead, having the audio spread across more speakers will add more "resolution". - And that makes sense, because if you take the load off of one speaker and put it on another, like having discreet channels for each instrument for example, that will just make things clearer. In the same way that you'd put dialogue and only SOME effects through the center speaker. - Of course, it also depends on how well it's mixed, because if the mix is great through two channels and speakers, then there's no problem. But still, spreading it across more speakers will tend to increasing the clarity, as it's all literally becoming more separated, again if the mix allows for it. - So assuming the mix is great, then it also comes down to the setup. - And believe me, getting the center speaker to sound right is one of the things I've messed with longest. But once it sits in the mix right, just like with a subwoofer, it "disappears", and it will take the "load" off of the two front speakers. - Not saying they're incapable, but I'm just saying that they can then do their parts and the separation will benefit you, the listener.

[@williamhicks2763]

I’m curious if anyone has heard the Martin Logan Motion XT C100 yet? Their approach is to not play the same frequencies through both midrange drivers. I haven’t found anyone in my area that has them on the showroom floor to demo. The XT’s are on my shortlist right now but a big purchase for me.

[@JamesBigham-v6b]

Thanks!

[@Nelthalin]

Thanks for the great tips! Trough the years I have indeed stumbled upon some of these issues. First was indeed the wrong center. I had a Jamo HCS628 5.0 setup and that center was not up to the task. Yes it was better than the TV but fantom with the towers was way better. So I swapped it for a SVS Ultra Center Damm that was a nice difference. It was so good I preferred listening with Dolby upmixing because the high and minds where better than the Jamo towers. To be fair that center was more expensive than the whole HCS set but it was worth it. For home cinema the center channel is the most important channel don't safe on that one. I later also got the Ultra bookshelfs to replace the towers and went to 2.2 listening for music. I did not like the detail loss but I don't remember what I did with the center spread I know I expirimented with it. After this video I will have a look again. I'm currently upgrading the receiver so looking to improve calibrations and going more in depth into the settings and also Measuring afterwards with rew

[@realjaxon]

I just just bought a Niles CTR BX center speaker from a goodwill store. I haven't connected it yet it's so new to me.😊

[@RennieAsh]

I've never really bothered with surround. Plus it would be expensive as I'd be perfectionist over it. That and life situations. For me stereo has worked fine, but I would probably enjoy a surround sound experience of decent quality

[@drbarney1000]

In the 1930's RCA labs wanted future stereo to include a center channel because it better duplicated the soundstage of a live orchestra. The reason it was introduced as two channels was there were only two degrees of freedom that were orthogonal possible in record grooves. Magnepan did some screened listening tests with non-professional listener audiences and they made the center channel L+R at 3 dB down and everyone who heard it preferred three channels done this way. Magnepan makes a center channel speaker that is designed to go with their main speakers. I drive my center channel with L and R buffered and blended in one output transformer and a GM 70 SET and my main channels with 833A SETs. I can also switch between center channel from SACD and movies or L+R. This works for me.

[@anamerican1054]

I've been thinking of having two center channel speakers powered by an amp to widen the center channel. I have an older Denon avr that doesn't have a way to widen center but does have a center pre out. To me it seems crazy to have these large TV's that have all the dialogue coming from a single tweeter point. The sound stage seems so small. Then you have to up the db of that center so you can hear it. Which then brings the sound stage forward from the TV. I would rather have a two maybe even three speakers so I can have a wall of dialogue from TV and then blend into right and left front speakers. My old Onkyo was a 5.1 and now I have an old Denon that has 7.1 and THX which I really like.

[@garyausten5939]

I just replaced a TV (yesterday) that was mounted just above an A/V cabinet on an attached frame and the only center channel that would fit was one that was probably too small (not timbre-matched) but from the same company as my L/R. My new TV, because of an unanticipated mounting issue, is now on my wall and have plenty of real estate to get a new, more appropriate center channel or, what I'm considering is getting a 3rd identical speaker to my L/R and using it. Have to wait till there's a sale, though (Klipsch RP-600M ii).

[@ryanrichardson2957]

I used to hate the center channel. I naively thought that the center channel wasn’t that important and just got a cheap one and I never liked it. When I stepped up and gave it one. Ore chance with a very wood quality one, it was kind of a revelation. Now I can’t imagine my system without it.

[@deankim6687]

Most people have TVs and not acoustically transparent screens and TVs are really big nowadays so having a center can be problematic given that you want the LCR at the same height. You’ll probably have to have the TV to high or speakers to low. With just a LR you can create a phantom center much closer to the center of the screen. Having a center channel is also aesthetically harder to integrate into decor and most of us don’t have dedicated listening rooms. I would also rather put the center speaker money into better LR speakers. Just my 2 cents.

[@Audioholics]

That only works at MLP. A center is essential to anchor dialog for the other seats.

[@deankim6687]

@@Audioholics If you’re not in the MLP then just about everything is off anyway, in most peoples homes, so I guess it’s just how important making the off axis seats less bad is to someone.

[@Audioholics]

@@deankim6687 regardless, if it's a discrete channel, you're doing yourself a disservice not using it.

[@deankim6687]

@@Audioholics Even if I’m in the MLP? If so, I may consider getting one.

[@Audioholics]

@@deankim6687 Yes, if you're listening to discrete 5.1 or higher channel count.

[@kennethdias9988]

When I am moving around doing housework I will turn on party mode a mono mode spread across all speakers great sound everywhere

[@LordElfa]

In reference to what you were saying at 3:30 in the video, about putting 2 bookshelves sideways and using them in parallel being bad as an example in Fig. 1.d: TWWT. But what about putting 2 bookshelves together sideways, top to top so that you have a version of Fig 1.a: MTM, but it's actually MTTM, or if they're 3-ways, WMTTMW? I'd love to see what 2 sideways towers in that config would be like. Maybe a pair of JSE Infinite Slope Model 2's put sideways, for WWMMTTMMWW? Don't hate me.

[@powerguymark]

I don't respect #6 people. (Obviously there are exceptions, some people's room set up just don't allow for Center channel placement and I get it) I used to be one of those people. I finally dropped my anti-center channel, bias but it took a while. The musical immersion of the best 2.1 system I ever put together PALES in comparison to my current 7.2.4 system. You are also correct about replacing my Center channel MTM With they a center channel that also has a mid-range. The vocal/dialogue clarity went through the roof both in the primary seating position and off axis. Really enjoy your no-nonsense pragmatic approach to things Gene.

[@davidhamilton163]

My speakers are Boston Acoustics VR965s and center is a VR920, it is a great setup. Love it, but when it comes to anything recorded in 2 channel that is how it gets played, no up mix for me. It sounds good to me, so I'm Happy.

[@tac6044]

I normally hate powered tower speakers but the vr965s are nice. You can find them used all day for $100 a pair which is a great deal. Just don't like the socks but they sound pretty good. I've owned a couple pair of them and run them in my gym.

[@geraldmcmullon2465]

Some 6 channel films have too loud music on the left and right fronts and with the dialogue on the centre channel it is easy to dial back the surrounds. Mumbling and recording on location is more common and the separation a dialogue channel gives helps. Occasionally the supplied second audio in stereo is better mixed. I have tried expanding stereo to 6 channels but it is rarely satisfactory. I could do more set up options but the tweaking hasn't been worth the effort for me.

[@shemsureshot]

I used to dislike centre speakers because I could always hear where the sound was coming from (beneath the TV) which would cause me to look at it instead of the screen. I had the same problem with sound bars. What helped was finding the right centre channel for me. The LS50 Meta Centre made it sound like everything was coming from the screen even when you are sat to the side. As for soundbars, the beosound stage does something similar with its sound.

[@gpower]

I spent a lot of time with placement to get the actual speakers to disappear from the sound stage.

[@alexandre7634]

Well center channel is for the dialogue, that's how it's done for theaters, because you want to be able to listen to the dialogue no matter where you are in the theatre, that's for practical reasons, but I guess if you eliminate the center channel, you don't really hear the movie in his original form, so you could miss some of the artistic decisions...

[@lucasrem]

some old people hated the centre speaker when playing music only !

[@cbcdesign001]

Sert up correctly the sound appears to come from the screen, not from the speaker, even if its placed above or below the actual screen. You may have to toe up or toe down the speaker to achieve this.

[@raybell924]

How would you say the The Legend L400 stack up to Reserve R400?? any thoughts?

[@mgrsdgfsdafsdgrsdgfsdg6980]

I prop my center speaker on some tinker toys and the imaging is so clear, I can hear a star being born in a neighboring galaxy. Its so choice, if you have the means, I highly recommend it.

[@HomeGr0an]

I can't get the sound to come from the picture, I need to turn the center channel volume down because it clearly comes through under the tv

[@robinheijblom2929]

The problem I noticed is when there is a difference between the FC (Front Center) speaker and FL/FR (Front Left and Front Right) speakers, it's very hard to get it right without either having a receiver that supports double crossover or disabling the subwoofer, set FL/FR to Large and FC to Small, and use the crossover to send all the center low frequencies to the left and right. My receiver supports Dolby Pro Logic II Music which basically is Dolby Pro Logic II with center spreading. It works for evenly distributing the low frequencies but it also distributes the center across left and right making dialog not only coming from the center but also from front left and right and I don't like it. Before I had a surround system I always overestimated the importance of surround and underestimated the center. I just thought speaker manufacturers invented the center just to make more money. That was because previously I always watched movies sitting in the sweat spot in the middle therefore phantom center worked fine for me. But since my living room is arranged in such a way all but one person always sit off-center the significance of the center speaker became more clear than ever. If I had to choose between 3.0 (FL, FC, FR) or 4.0 (FL, FR, SL, SR) I would definitely go for 3.0. And a subwoofer? I do like subwoofers but I still think they're overrated. I don't really want to feel the base because I know as soon as I feel it my neighbors can also feel the base because I don't live in a detached house. I prefer a properly configured 5.0 system with large FL/FR over a 5.1 system with all equal small speakers and a subwoofer. With 90% of 2.1, 5.1 and 7.1 systems I experience something is missing in the high lows and low mids. I don't experience this with 2.0, 5.0 or 7.0 systems with large FL/FR. Maybe a receiver with double crossover configuration can change my mind but I don't have one at the moment.

[@grahamamorrisonsr1135]

Purist here. I keep my music listening and TV listening separate. I have two homes. In my second home, in the “bonus room”, I have an audio sustem that runs north and south, TWO speakers only, and a 5.1 AV system that runs east and west. It’s a great room and works great for both systems. In my other home, AV is in the den, audio (2 speakers) in the playroom. A great audio system does NOT need a center channel.

[@cbcdesign001]

I would not be without my centre channel. But I always match the speaker to the left and right front surrounds and toe the centre channel in my case, so the sound appears to come from the screen since the speaker is below it by about 1 foot.

[@Mark-ix8rz]

Well for one thing if you have a proper setup you'll hear voices coming from the center anyway. I've tried several different Center channel speakers and always went back to two channel. I just think most people who are into stereos have tried them and don't find them necessary and an added expense that doesn't add to your system. Kind of like equalizers raising their ugly heads again. People spend more time fooling with those than listening to music. More gear less music

[@great100m]

with old ears and damaged hearing, I don't too excited about all the claims about "jaw dropping" or "night/day" advantages of speakers, wires, amps, etc, etc. What I do prioritize however is clear dialogue on movies/TV shows. When I changed from a 2-way Elac cc to a 3-way SVS cc I sensed a marginal clarity change but a significant (jaw dropping ?) change in the off-axis performance.

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

At this point in my audio Journey I’ve decided to go with identical speakers for every channel. 7.x.x With an OLED tv, mounted just above the bed layer. If I get tired of the height discrepancy of the screen being over the speakers. I’ll remove the center channel, lower the tv between left and right, and do phantom center 6.x.x

[@Lowkey_nxthxn]

The thing I don't understand why doesn't Apple Music use the center channel more for dialog and why bother using the left and right speaker when it's a dolby atmos mix I don't understand why they do that there's only a few songs that will use the center channel for voices

[@QuicksilverSG]

Mounting a center channel speaker under a large HDTV produces uncomfortably direct beaming due to lack of wall or ceiling reflections. Much better to hang the center speaker from the ceiling, above the TV.

[@C--A]

I listen to music the way it was recorded and meant to be played back - ie stereo music with 2 speakers, 5.1 mixes with 5 speakers (plus a sub, don't have space for more subs) I sit dead centre in between my speakers plus have absorption and diffusion panels throughout my room. Stereo music in my my specific room sounds amazing if it's a good mix. I occasionally upmix stereo to 5.1 just for fun. Sounds decent but not as good or as natural as the native stereo mix coming out 2 speakers. Now if it's a native 5.1 or higher music mix then that's a different story. As the music was actually recorded, mixed, meant to be played with more than 2 speakers. Anyway nothing against people who upmix stereo. Just as I've nothing against people using tube amp's to colour the sound. Everyone has different preferences.

[@albertpintor3522]

I have a 5.1 system and I listen to my music in multichannel stereo all the time

[@GB-je5tc]

Two channel is for a single user application. Multiple user application needs o compensate for off axis performance. You nailed it right there. Also beyond-stereo set ups should be additive & supplementive in order to maintain natural cohesion of sound in the room, not disruptive/ entropic. FOR SCIENCE!!! Live long and prosper Ambassador.

[@markfreedman2470]

Hi Gene. I'm an old time audiophile for 60 years. (live in Sarasota). Two years ago I got a pair of Acoustat Electrostatic speakers and set them up with a sub. If I sat in the middle. I got a complete phantom 3rd channel. So much so that I would have sworn that really was a speaker there, instead of a wall! I Noticed it with some Frank Sinatra and Donald Fagerman recordings. Problem is, it's good for only one person. Fantastic Sound but you can't move your head. I'm now setting up a new system (for me ) with a pair of Yamaha NS2000 speakers and Lexicon components. And yes it's going to be 5.1 (or 5.2). Got a really good high end Jamo center channel speaker per the configuration in this video of yours. I have the SACD version of the James Taylor's "Hourglass" CD. It's 5.1 . And of course I like concerts and movies. It will be a little while before this new system is fully set up. I have 3 Lexicon manuals of around 200 pages each. Plus I'm setting up a DEQX Premate with FIR filtering. That will be for Pure 2.0. Thanks for all your great videos!

[@tac6044]

High end Jamo is an oxymoron

[@markfreedman2470]

You are right and you are wrong. Before Jamo was purchased by Klipsch they made very high end products. Right now if my piece of crap center channel speaker was on the market, it would probably sell for several thousand dollars new. It’s a three way design and weighs about 40 pounds. Jamo was Most likely selling fine speakers at a financial loss.

[@yogabyaakaash]

I love my centre channel and have no qualms but there is a part of me who wants to get a tower for the centre. I'm not sure if that would make a remarkable difference since it will be of a different speaker brand, looking at timbre matching.