Australia's top spy chief on the threat of Russia, China's rise and the war in cyberspace | ABC News

Australia's top foreign spy chief, Paul Symon, the outgoing head of the Australia Secret Intelligence Service, talks the Russia-Ukraine war, China's influence in the Pacific and what he looks for in a secret agent. Subscribe: ab.co/3yqPOZ5 Read more here: ab.co/3PaRdtp
Interview by John Lyons and Geraldine Doogue.
00:00 Intro
02:30 Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the role of the US intelligence community
04:10 War games and its role in intelligence strategy and planning
05:27 The Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan and Australia's exit from Kabul
08:32 China's rise and influence in the Asia-Pacific
10:08 Cyber security and hacking
16:30 National security and Xi Jinping, Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin
18:10 The Cuban Missile Crisis, Fidel Castro and John F. Kennedy
19:50 Ethics at the Australia Secret Intelligence Service and how agents raise issues
21:00 What the Australia Secret Intelligence Service looks for in a secret agent
22:00 What role social media plays in the intelligence community
23:18 Diversity and inclusion at ASIS
25:00 Leadership at ASIS
25:40 Power of democracy and freedom when it comes to our security challenges
ABC News In-depth takes you deeper on the big stories, with long-form journalism from Four Corners, Foreign Correspondent, Australian Story, Planet America and more, and explainers from ABC News Video Lab.
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Note: In most cases, our captions are auto-generated.
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[@kadifails]

Am I the only one that seriously struggles when there is lots of background music when people are talking? I wish they allowed people to talk without the background music and such.

[@organicod2438]

But then how would you know that you're supposed to be scared?

[@LeGronk]

yeah, the music is annoying. gives the whole thing a real boomer-era vibe.

[@Iya_RPH]

The Background music is already an assimilation so people can internalised the intensity of the situation that no more drill is needed when it all happens. We already have known who are the people aligned. The activity to establish and unify immediately the relationship between the citizens and local police should be fix first leading to real trust and unity within our community.

[@JohnSavage1984]

Possibly. Never bothered me and I only realy noticed it in the end wind up. Good job ABC.

[@60-second-HACKS]

They need the music to push you toward their narrative.

[@saulabbott-atchison6660]

Is this a recruitment video?

[@RandomTutorials2012]

This is a long way to say that: “shit is about to go down, and we need to make sure that people don’t freak out when it does.”

[@RandomTutorials2012]

16:14 basically, “when we’re hunting a potential terrorist or shit stirer, we use passive and intrusive methods to determine whether they, on the balance of probabilities, are in fact worth while locking up.”

[@cheeser01]

just watched the first 9 minutes. Australia along with the rest of the "allied forces" did not achieve anything by the invasion of Afganistan. 20 year war to snuff out the Taliban? They rolled into the capital the day we left. No success here. He has a very poor reflection of what transpired. What did we achieve?

[@buravan1512]

Can anyone please explain to me how RUSSIA is a THREAT to AUSTRALIA?

[@mike9347]

I appreciate that this bloke knows his job, but maybe this came across as too much of a propaganda video. Unfortunate to see the ABC waste a good opportunity such as this.

[@jamesforresternewone4423]

The real threats in our own backyard

[@truckiemitch8577]

Thank you for your service Paul. So much great information.

[@embracedmadness]

ABC beatin The Drums…?

[@organicod2438]

Are they removing comments?

[@saskiademoor8400]

indeed major conflict between super powers is no longer unimaginable. How did we get here? Really? I reckon people like this got us right to this point but seem - alas- in total denial that this might be so ... I am worried. Extremely worried when we depend on people like this for our safety. (Yes I know, I do not have the right profile for a good spy).

[@MikeFromDownUnder]

Thanks for sharing this with us.

[@sandponics]

What about the fifth column?

[@junaji]

anyone knows the background music to the introduction?

[@rocinante4609]

He says ppl have a right to know and debate what path our country should move in but is there really any public debate on foreign or defence policy in Australia? Was the Aukus deal debated in Parliament? Was the Australian public asked how many Billions of $$$ we want to sent to Ukraine?

[@michaeldavis8103]

Australia has not differed, either side of aisle, with US policy since Whitlam.

[@Darksoull.]

Is this a Resume? I mean outgoing top spy chief probably can't write much on his resume, but this whole thing reads as I had this job and this is all the good stuff I did while I was in charge. It reads like a Resume or a job interview. I was expecting more about cyber attacks from other nations and stuff. And while we are here, why do countries just shrug at foreign cyber attacks? Why is a cyber attack not considered as an act of aggression or war against our country? it's still a blatant attack on us isn't it?

[@60-second-HACKS]

If it's a resume, it's been nicely polished. Congratulations to him. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@michellekozaczok8201]

19:59 - 20:50 Did he just describe brainwashing an Officer(s) *into* participating in an "activity"?

[@mijgreco3914]

"Came out of the shadows to keep the narrative on track". Fixed it for you.

[@mijgreco3914]

@@uriituw it's not tin foil hat if it's true.

[@mijgreco3914]

@@uriituw and it's not untrue cuz you say so.

[@mijgreco3914]

@@uriituw the narrative the the west are the good guys? Or the narrative China/Russia = bad guys?

[@truthalwayswinsonewayorano9518]

It never was unimaginable, ever.

[@samueljcarlson]

Is the raw interview available without all this sensational music and effects? It does a great disservice to the information being presented.

[@richardsimms251]

This could be an interesting talk but the music is very distracting

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Egotism and vanity are another major reason why people fail. These qualities serve as red lights which warn others to keep away. They are fatal to success.

[@cestlextase]

I wouldnt take an interview where they plan to play cringe movie sountrack over me discussing a serious issue.

[@johnwilliams8855]

It's this caliber of men that allow free & open societies to exist & give hope to the oppressed. Thank you, Sir.

[@NathanCroucher]

Another one, your kidding. Hook line and sinker.

[@symbolsarenotreality4595]

The complete opposite is true, this guy is a stooge of the CIA and wants endless warfare for endless profit. Luckily the USA empire is collapsing.

[@60-second-HACKS]

That is almost the antithesis of his job description. You're buying the propaganda.

[@NathanCroucher]

@@uriituw " I don't think" yes

[@catfordprepper]

He used the word channeling, so I am out at 3 minutes!

[@mikedonnarumma5337]

men behaving badly will end us all

[@TheyCallMeNewb]

Should this interview not have been 15-20% longer and have featured the interviewees asking questions?

[@essiebee8415]

... Did you think that ASIS would answer questions off the cuff with no final edit control?

[@TheyCallMeNewb]

Hmm. A touch conspiratorial perhaps, but you may be right in alluding to the safeguarding of a certain secrecy, as grounds for the apparent truncation here.

[@haydenshaw2250]

@@TheyCallMeNewb No, they would absolutely require the questions before they agree to appear on the program. There is no way that this isn't scripted, which I would think is pretty standard

[@essiebee8415]

@@TheyCallMeNewb babes it isn't conspiratorial to understand how departmental policy likely works and how much influence they have to enforce that policy externally in this case. The conditions of him accepting that interview at all were definitely along the lines of "questions in advance, final edit goes to us, additional cuts deleted".

[@dickiesdocos]

Dr Strangelove for the 21st century. Yippee!

[@beesplaining1882]

In summary: Be afraid, be very afraid!....roll the music.....the end.

[@BuntingClipClop]

Interesting, but could've done without the spy music gnawing away at my ear in the background. Just let the man speak!

[@BuffaloL100]

He keeps talking 'humans' both like he's in a distinct category and as though he knows something the rest of us don't 🤔

[@balung]

He knows where the bodies are buried.

[@davidwilkie9551]

No comment.

[@shanehudson5438]

If i was spy chief our enemy would be shaking in there boots

[@1301283]

Symon is literally a master in espionage and we're supposed to be believe anything he says in this interview? lol

[@60-second-HACKS]

Exactly. But most people do.

[@OilHutJones]

Could have been a channel 7 exclusive. What a miss.

[@joebullwinkle5099]

Mmmmm, can’t say I’m thrilled with what I heard in this interview. Is Australia really prepared for China’s ever increasing territorial and political aggression. Australians appear to be so oblivious and naive to the reality of what the Xi Jinping has in store for Australia and every other nation in the Pacific. Perhaps a decade or two of paying tribute to China would help to clarify what their role in China’s plans are!

[@PhiloSurfer]

It is precisely people like you that will make war with China a reality. Where is China's ever increasing territorial aggression - in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Jugoslavia?

[@joebullwinkle5099]

@@PhiloSurfer Maybe you should do a little research in regards to the South China sea, the 9 Dashed line and the multiple artificial island military bases that have magically made the entire area sovereign Chinese territory. It is this type of willful ignorance that leads to World wars.

[@Kruse1]

That was a lot of talking where not much was said.

[@baronbones7742]

That's politics

[@vladimirdespot1783]

Top spy chief relying on crystal ball 💪🥳

[@medicuswashington9870]

Will China allow Russia to lose?

[@STROONZONY]

Most people in Australia have heads in sand and if we are attacked, they will be shocked.

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Our words have power… Imagine you are standing in your kitchen holding a lemon that you have just taken from the refrigerator. It feels cold in your hand. Look at the outside of it, its yellow skin. It is a waxy yellow, and the skin comes to small green points at the two ends. Squeeze it a little and feel its firmness and its weight. Now raise the lemon to your nose and smell it. Nothing smells quite like a lemon does it? Now cut the lemon in half and smell it. The odour is stronger. Now bite deeply into the lemon and let the juice swirl around in your mouth. Nothing tastes like a lemon either, does it? At this point, if you have used your imagination well, your mouth will be watering. Consider the implications of this. Words, mere words, affected your salivary glands. The words did not even reflect reality, but something you imagined. When you read those words about the lemon you were telling your brain you had a lemon, though you did not mean it. Your brain took it seriously and said to your salivary glands, “I’am biting a lemon. Hurry wash it away.” The glands obeyed. Most of us think the words we use reflect meanings and that what they mean can be good or bad, true or false, powerful or weak. True, but that is only half of it. WORDS NOT ONLY REFLECT REALITY, THEY CREATE REALITY… like the flow of saliva. The brain is no subtle interpreter of our intentions - it receives information and stores it, and is in charge of our bodies.

[@Compertz]

We need people like this. Where would you find them without a democratic system?

[@donnydrumpf9563]

Hahaha.. hahaha.. hahaha.. Yes, sure!! Hahaha.. hahaha.. hahaha...

[@fox2415]

Democratic system? LMAO😂

[@bustermaw]

Er , are you saying that only democracies have spies ?

[@donnydrumpf9563]

@@bustermaw hahaha.. hahaha.. hahaha.. well said!!

[@JoelTheGamer]

Get rid of the corny music

[@24Ayiolaf]

I find it difficult believing this man I really do

[@bdebs6796]

You have the opportunity to interview the "Top Spy Chief" with access to information and knowledge that no one else has, that plays a huge role in the life we are living and will live, and you ask about diversity. A poor selection of questions for someone that could give us insight from behind closed doors. Luckily now we know behind those close doors, there are women and people of different ages. 🤯

[@aussiepressconferences.4755]

I understand his grasp on reality but it’s a long way from the politicians media hype and hope lies and the publics ability to believe care or support such a corrupt govt.

[@realisticrealist3267]

Don't call something an invasion when you use to call the same (or even a covert exploitation of far away countries) a mission as soon as your own gov or allies do it 😂🧐

[@harryk8696]

so hypocritical to say australia will act in our own best interests re china right after skipping over the 20 year afghanistan war we should’ve backed out of 😂🤡

[@frederickmiles327]

The take from this tour of the horizon and retired Australian PM strategic advisors, Dibb and Hugh White is the ADF re equipment and reorganisation over the last 35 years was not on a scale and capability relevant to the current and potential threat and assumptions of a safe 15-20 years warning of a direct military threat build up to Australian security no longer apply and represented a inaccurate left wing disarmament assessment even then. The assessment at ANU then and now that the USSR/ Russia had neither the capability or intent to directly threaten Australia in 1950, 1962, 1968 or 1983 is incorrect. All USN,RN and RAN and probably RAAF communications were broken in real time 1968-1985 by the Walker spy ring as confirmed Lehman US navy Sec 81-87, CIA Sunick Dep 2000-7 and Georgia Tech analysis which showed that the USSR had recreated and reverse engineered USN encypters by mid 1968. And the Soviet advantage gained by communication intercepts led directly to the expansion of the Soviet Navy from 1970 and the pattern of global exercising from Op Okean was intended to provide cover for naval and sub movements into position for simultaneous conventional, tactical and nuclear strikes on major USN global platforms SSBN, SSN, ICBM and CVN and CV . The statements by eg Paul Dibb of known US intercept and satellite cover of Vladivostok Soviet naval command does not confirm or indicate that the US had the ability to monitor Soviet Portibulo or staff discussion in say 1980-1987 and the lack of US knowledge of the degree of Soviet Navy plans and capability or intercept achievements too be tactical non disclosure. The Australian ANU assumption of a general common modern ideology ith post 1956 USSR/Russia or post 1980 China was not only incompetent analysis by ANU strategic advisors but indicated strong anti Americanism and idealogical consistency with Wellington rather than Washington DC or Santa Monica in the Canberra political class

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Ethics... If a man or woman is right, his or her world will be right. A keen sense of justice and fairness... Without a keen sense of fairness and justice, no leader can command and retain the respect of his or her followers.

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Flexibility. We all want to be liked, we all need friendships. More than that, we know unless we can win the close, friendly cooperation of others, it will be difficult to achieve success in life. The number one trait of a pleasing personality is flexibility. Flexibility means the ability to bend mentally and physically, to adapt to any circumstance or environment while maintaining self control and composure. Flexibility can best be described as the ability to survey and assess a given situation swiftly and respond to it on the basis of logic and reason with a minimum of emotion. This allows you to take prompt action in seizing opportunity or solving problems. You become decisive. You develop a sense of humour and humility. Flexibility softens hard times we all have to face in our lives and adds to our happiness during the good times. It helps us to be grateful and make beneficial use of every experience in life, whether pleasant or unpleasant.

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Morale is essential. Will power??? The power of imagination is more reliable and productive. The 'winning hand.' Will power needs an enemy to overcome before it reaches its goal. It tries to be tough and, like most tough guys, it becomes a 'cream puff' when the going gets rocky. There is a gentler, easy way - imagination. Imagination seizes directly on the goal; it gets what it needs. "When the will and the imagination are in conflict, it is always the imagination that wins." - Emily Coue.

[@Dredaydidntmakeeazypayday]

Stop whispering its very weird you lost many viewers because it's cringy when you whisper

[@kevinmaccallum336]

Optimism: is a matter of mental habit. You can learn to practice the habit of optimism and thereby greatly enhance your chances of achieving your goals in life. Optimism is one of the most important traits of a pleasing personality. There is no substitute for a pleasing personality. It results largely from other traits: - a good sense of humour - hopefulness - the ability to overcome fear (self belief) - contentment - a positive mental attitude - flexibility - enthusiasm - faith in yourself, in other people. - decisiveness. Spend a few minutes every day enumerating the pleasant events that will happen tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. By thinking of them, you find yourself laying plans to make them happen. NO SUCCESSFUL LEADER WAS EVER A PESSIMIST. ALWAYS HAVE FAITH IN BETTER DAYS TO COME. “AN OUNCE OF OPTIMISM IS WORTH MORE THAN A TON OF PESSIMISM." Like attracts like in human relations, no matter what the rule maybe in the physical world. An optimist tends to congregate with optimists, just as success attracts success. Optimism is, in itself, a kind of success, for it means you have a healthy, peaceful and contented mind. Optimism is a firm belief you can make things come out right by thinking ahead and deciding a course of action based on sound judgement. Possess the spiritual strength to seek victory in any of the set backs we all encounter from time to time. Learn to meet the future head on. Analyse it. Weigh the factors with clear judgement. Then decide upon your course of action to make your goals turn out the way you desire them... YOU WILL FIND THAT THE FUTURE HOLDS NOTHING TO FEAR.

[@DANINREDDY]

This bloke spoke for 30 odd minutes and said almost nothing... Talk about speaking in generalities...

[@organicod2438]

It's standard fear mongering. Make people afraid of nothing in particular and everything all at once.

[@theprinceoftides6836]

I think that's spyspeak for I know nothing, I hear nothing. Or that could be Sgt Schultz lol.

[@nicoladellaporta2619]

Good. Australia trying to go to war against China at all costs. Please, go ahead and let us know when you are done.

[@kevinmaccallum336]

An open mind is a free mind. If you close your mind to new ideas, concepts and people, you are locking the door that imprisons your own mentality. Intolerance severs opportunities and lines of communication. An open mind frees you from intolerance and allows your imagination freedom and to develop vision. Our imagination is a beautiful faculty of the mind. 🌟 A closed mind is a static personality. With an open mind you can grasp opportunities when they arrive, AS THEY ALWAYS DO. An open mind requires faith in yourself, other people, and a free and democratic Australia. Even a Higher Power. It lays down a pattern of progress for all of us. SUPERSTITION AND PREJUDICE EVAPORATES. An open mind is developed by listening attentively and thoughtfully to others, allowing stimulating influences to overcome a withering human mentality.

[@stellartrent1775]

Wumao in the chat just ignore them.

[@questioneryusef8264]

If you want Australians to be ready be prepared to legalize the games of paintball. Training with paintball guns. But do not emulate with US Second Amendment. Bad during economic downturn if legalize real guns. Humans are no angels they are demi-gods capable of hurting each other and themselves.

[@cthoadmin7458]

What a thankless job they do. Working in the shadows, keeping us safe from threats most of us can dimly imagine. The cavalier attitude many people take in commenting on intelligence here, shows they don't appreciate the gravity of the threats. I suspect the gravest threats are the unknown unknowns. There's a lot we don't know about China, or North Korea, but at least they are known unknowns: we can define them, and imagine best and worst cases and plan accordingly, but what do you do when you don't even know what form a threat will take, let alone who, or where it might come from? An unenviable job.

[@NathanCroucher]

This was a PR puff piece and it looks to have worked. There was nothing of substance in it. unknown unknown that was rumsfields, big on torture that guy.

[@Ausfailia]

@@NathanCroucher +10000 social credit points for you good sir, xi like

[@NathanCroucher]

@@Ausfailia Means nothing coming from an anonymous account. At least you got the sir bit right.

[@Ausfailia]

@@NathanCroucher [phone] social credit points for you sir enjoy your free trip to China

[@60-second-HACKS]

Heroes in their own mini-drama?

[@TheLazyGeneTV]

Seems legit

[@marcopaganotto9125]

If peace and stability is the objective then WTF did America and the UK refuse to listen to Russia's concerns? Because this war is exactly what they wanted to happen. Should be pretty obvious by now...

[@balung]

Yeap, of course they want a major conflict.

[@MosmMAli]

Wtf!!it was Russia that attacked it's much smaller neighbours

[@Willchannel90]

Communists are smart octopus and Fox.

[@mickeydsouli8377]

haha Australian secret service, that's as funny as Australian armed forces, Australia is 100% reliant on the paper printing countries, all are about to become pages in history, the future is Russia, china and the eastern collaboration.

[@kenambo]

Seriously, declassifying, public awareness, propaganda is the vital tool of regimented we are not immune. I have not heard anything in public forums that remotely reflect the incredibly complex situation in Ukraine. In fact most of what I hear is regurgitated pap by uninformed journalists. All wars are nuanced and in this instance it can only be resolved by intelligent and balanced negotiation. Anything less is unthinkable and not just for Ukraine but specifically Europe and more broadly all of us.

[@jessehachey2732]

You don’t negotiate with terrorists 🤡. Ukraine and ONLY Ukraine gets to decide when and IF, they negotiate anything! Slava Ukraini! 🇺🇦

[@baronbones7742]

I'm more concerned by LNP interference Personally as a South Australian I'd prefer to work for or with China especially how they have turned their country around and how belt and road will not be something we want to miss out on After what the LNP put us through I'd rather actually undermine the LNP I actually see them as the enemy within far more than China

[@xionglin2009]

China is kinda smoke screen and excuse, australia's true concern has always being indonesia, not a concern about their intention but rather capability, their GDP is almost the same size as ours and is growing much faster, even though they are peaceful now there is no guarantee for the future especially consider the impact of climate change and how we hoard all the fertile farmland, we could become a target

[@MosmMAli]

The same tyranny that imprisons millions of its ethnic minority and threatens it's much smaller neighbours!!!

[@savvys3768]

CHINESE keyboard warriors everywhere online

[@doctor3264]

Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... Lies

[@rosaliehagart1888]

Braw. Ty.x

[@windwaker0rules]

fearmongers

[@windwaker0rules]

@@uriituw these people are all from ASPI and want to start WW3 to make profits. And ABC is trying to push fear into the community which is disgusting

[@windwaker0rules]

@@uriituw The evidence is that a good share of their senior reporters are from ASPI. And ASPI being a think tank for the arms industry has vested interests in starting wars for profit.

[@windwaker0rules]

@@uriituw Well tell me why the ABC is ok with constantly making negative articles about the chinese government when there are nations who have way worse records?

[@rafaelscott8300]

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[@jamestoms2896]

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[@angelinacarusos7452]

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[@harmoncastro4943]

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[@bensonnc6847]

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[@rosaliehagart1888]

Don't do it Symple

[@ashm3697]

Propaganda

[@ska5568]

*China is going to eat Australia for breakfast and we are going to standby and laugh at that sight* 😂😂😂

[@60-second-HACKS]

Can you imagine out Aussie boys up against the technological know-how of China? Even, the yanks are out of their depth. Embarrassing.

[@donnydrumpf9563]

Australiar government always acts on its own national interests?? Well, yeah ... Hahaha.. hahaha.. hahaha..

[@soonpohtay4794]

Woof woof…

[@husseinsidibe4954]

😅😅😅

[@donnydrumpf9563]

@@soonpohtay4794 hi, doggy..

[@donnydrumpf9563]

@@soonpohtay4794 good dog.. good dog.. now, eat your treats!! Hahaha.. hahaha.. hahaha..