Authoritarian Propaganda has Consumed the GOP's 2024 Campaign! (w/ Anne Applebaum) | Bulwark Podcast

Russia, China, and their authoritarian allies are working overtime to poison the idea of democracy everywhere in the world. It's a theme so heartily embraced by MAGA, their messaging is often the same. Plus, coup sympathizer Samuel Alito, Ukraine's high-tech gains and low-tech losses, and our risk of being outflanked by foreign influence in 2024.
show notes
Anne's Atlantic cover story: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...
Anne's forthcoming book, "Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who to Run the World.": www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...
Tim's playlist: open.spotify.com/playlist/0dA...
0:00 - Intro
1:16 - Justice Alito Flew Upside-Down Flag After Jan 6th
6:36 - Assassination Attempt on Slovakia Prime Minister
10:36 - Georgia Protests Against “Foreign Agent” Law
15:24 - Current State of Play in Ukraine
20:49 - Anne Applebaum’s Article “The New Propaganda War”
28:31 - Changes in Propaganda Strategies
31:47 - Religion Suppression in Russia
34:27 - Efforts to Counter Propaganda
40:21 - Why the US Doesn’t Engage in Negative Propaganda
44:20 - Less Prepared for 2024 Election Propaganda Than Four Years Ago
Send your mailbag questions here: [e-mail]
Join Sarah, Tim and JVL for a live show on June 21 in Denver. Tickets are on sale now at www.thebulwark.com/p/bulwark-...
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[@patriciaheflin4518]

Thanks for having Anne as a guest & for getting her 'foreign correspondent' thoughts on issues of concern. She is SO knowledgeable! I always look forward to an interview with her!! Thanks, Tim!!! Terrific discussion! 💙

[@Cryptantha]

❤ Anne Applebaum ❤ Thanks for having her.

[@larrykachimba4494]

Flying an upside down US flag, a symbol of opposition to the Constitution, draws into question the justice's suitability of character for the bench in violation of Article III, Sect 1, “good Behaviour.”

[@user-rh4vp7fd8n]

Honestly, it’s reprehensible. Of course these judges know what their wives are up to. My father was a judge and his wife knew more than she should’ve. It’s the person they live with and rely upon. They have intimate access. They overhear conversations including what’s said in their sleep. Naive to think these judges aren’t influenced by their significant others.

[@dlcs1406]

Even worse, now he says it was his wife's fault

[@akphison]

I honestly thought it was a sign of distress and accepted under flag code as legitimate

[@kimberlychodur3508]

I don’t care if it was the wife or not, he still should have never allowed it. She shouldn’t have done it either knowing full well her husband is a Supreme Court judge.

[@karsten11553]

@@akphison quite legitimate under flag code, yes, if you are in distress. But "distress" is not meant as a metaphor. Do you think people are amused about people running around signaling SOS?

[@gaylhowell6545]

The situation in Ukraine is simply heartbreaking.

[@joanfregapane8683]

And was entirely avoidable except for the pro Russian GOP House Members along with DT.

[@jasonkiley8417]

I agree 😢

[@smdpc]

😢 Yes. But it's going to get better. A lot of International rumors that Putin is wearing out; may want to talk.

[@robinhood20253]

Alito is a liar.

[@sassysaint3096]

Alito has been bought and sold.

[@robinhood20253]

@@sassysaint3096 yeah and he is just immoral on top of that.

[@sassysaint3096]

@@robinhood20253 And traitor.

[@carlosbond5062]

Short, sweet, and devastatingly truthful!

[@user-uc5bb1cu2j]

Great show, Anne is a fantastic guest

[@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc]

Yes!! I have been trying to write you guys about this. It is bonkers what they are believing and repeating! Thank you from an American in Central Europe, close to Ukraine. Very excited to listen.

[@stevenbarton3438]

Upside down flag signifys distress and need help. This was totally outrageous!!

[@arthurmiller-vl6sw]

It’s insane that normal Americans KNOW what the truth is and cannot get this through to the majority of the population. Mind blown.

[@sassysaint3096]

​@@stevenbarton3438 I put a upside-down American flag sticker on my car during the Manchurian trump presidency because this country was under duress/ being attacked by the MAGA extremist and we need people to pay attention. Then I find out the republican extremists has hijacked the meaning of the upside-down flag meaning, just as they have the flag itself. I'm livid over this.

[@markphc99]

i always have time to listen to Anne Applebaum

[@Jaggerbush]

We need term limits and more accountability from the SCOTUS.

[@dustinstoker]

How do we implement this. We're one presidential election away from two branches of government being completely corrupt

[@SomethingBlonde-oc7sc]

If we give Biden both houses of Congress and re-election, it will happen. We, the people, can make sure of it.

[@markg.7865]

Clarence Thomas says no.

[@davidecasassa8679]

@@markg.7865 If "We the People" say "yes" and vote accordingly, Clarence Thomas has no say in the matter.

[@yvonneplant9434]

​@@SomethingBlonde-oc7scWouldn't it need a constitutional admendment?

[@hadawson72268]

The U.S. Flag Code states that the American flag is not to be flown upside down “except as a signal of dire distress in instance of extreme danger to life or property.”

[@user-rh4vp7fd8n]

The insurrection was a coup attempt- who were they signaling?!

[@TN-we3zt]

That is true, but it is problematic -- to say the least -- when used in this manner by an officer of the United States.

[@sassysaint3096]

The republicans has hijacked the meaning of the upside-down flag as well as the American flag itself for nefarious actions. I will not put a flag out on my porch because it's a MAGS symbol in today's madness.

[@geegaw1535]

I've been calling the gop the new Russian Republican propagandist party for over a year now.

[@glennmorgan4197]

They've been doing it since 2015😢😮🤬

[@dawnoceanside7300]

And DOING? 🤔

[@loganskiwyse7823]

Can trace it back to Nixon, in some ways to the end of WWII and the evangelism that took over the government and encourage rewriting history to try and make us a "Christian" nation.

[@DennisMoore664]

Trumpublicans

[@roseallport3907]

Republicans campaigned in2015-16 accusing Democrats all kinds of illegal(now we know, dreamed up by the Mag a) acts. Campaign, drain the swamp, put them in hail etc. Fa st forward to 2023, so many indictments, disbarred, I think we just drained the swamp. I never heard a pres, VP, any cabinet members receive absorbent amt of $ like Jerrod and wife. Trump hot to trot to sweeze China, China paid him off ect

[@arthurmiller-vl6sw]

I could not argue with anything Anne said. She nailed every point she brought up. America needs to listen to her.

[@integralmark]

she's getting plenty of air time in America. Most Americans are not listening to anything other than their siloed content. The hope is the Bulwark is able to reach reachable conservatives who, regardless of the inanity of Twitter and social media, know that there are deeper principles that are both vulnerable and essential.

[@KiraReminiec9399]

X formally known as Twitter

[@ianmackintosh5964]

Since when is Victor Orban considered a left wing politician.

[@mikeamarilio]

​@KiraReminiec9399 We're not calling it X. Stop trying to make X happen. It's never going to happen.

[@user-uc5bb1cu2j]

The real housewives of the Supreme Court

[@jannichi6431]

Orban has been attending Our and Foreign CPAC events. Recently AT Mar A Lico with Trump. Always follow the money🤮

[@jannichi6431]

Georgians Rock 🥌 Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦💜🌍

[@yvettepearson4216]

These dots directly connect to Trump's continuous rally cry that America is a "nation in decline"..."a failing nation."

[@joanfregapane8683]

And he should know, as he obviously intends to smash the last of the juices from our Democracy and throw the husk into the dustbin of history.

[@jennifer60515]

It feels like we are just trudging along as if this republic is in serious jeopardy and I am freaking out with each new thing I learn. The judiciary has failed all of us, and now it seems like not all of them want to maintain the republic anyway. They’re on the side of the authoritarians.

[@glennmorgan4197]

5:04 They claim to be best friends, so don't tell me that he didn't know what Ginnie was doing. 😢😮🤬

[@KeithCarbone]

Anne Applebaum is an international treasure. We who cherish the revolutionary liberalism of this democratic republic recognize that Anne has been heroic in documenting the recrudescence of reactionary antiliberalism, Russian revanchism and ascendant Lindberghist chicanery in the democratic nations. Hers is as important a voice as we are likely to hear from during this collision with history.

[@ma4450]

This is a conversation that should be happening in every news outlet in the US (except for the obvious suspects like Lachlan Murdoch's Fox and Elon Musk's Twitter, both profitably part of the problem). But it isn't: so at least it's happening at The Bulwark. Thanks, Tim. Anne Applebaum is great.

[@tommarney1561]

Twitter under Musk has been part of the problem, but not profitably. On the contrary, Musk has squandered billions on his attempt to turn Twitter into a haven for subversive right-wing extremists. Clearly, he considers it a worthwhile investment. (Oddly, though, there's still much worthwhile content there. I follow ATP Geopolitics, which publishes roughly two hours of Ukraine-related content per day, at least half of which comes from Twitter).

[@triciamead1352]

Love this pod cast Tim Miller.

[@RevCeleste]

Are checks and balances system is no longer working because scotus is not a part of it

[@bevtaylor5466]

More because MAGA Republicans control the House. We need Democrats to win the presidency and both House and Senate with a supermajority to get any accountability.

[@TravelBound2024]

Love your podcast Tim. Thank you for having Anne on, she’s fascinating to listen to.

[@user-of9ij5yf1y]

Chilling show! Should be required viewing for all sentient Americans!!!😊

[@leosgolasovsky1287]

As a simple person living right next to Slovakia (my wife is Slovak), I must say that it is nice to see how well informed you are!

[@nealsidor1323]

I'm appalled that there is a single Veteran in this great land that still supports maguh🤪. Even if you set aside the "suckers & losers" comment by their leader, A supreme court justice on their side displayed an upsidedown American Flag supporting the overturning of a free and fair election. Why does Alito still have his job ? VOTE🔵'24 🇺🇸

[@JaymeArceneaux]

What happened to the appearance of conflict of interest? This goes beyond that even 👀🤮Congress needs to do their job in enforcing ethics rules or face consequences replacing them with Congress members who will hold Supreme Court accountable

[@gaylhowell6545]

Thank you for this enlightening interview with Anne Applebaum.

[@merriferrell2818]

Ginny Thomas- The Manchurian candidate

[@mikegrisafi541]

They say you are judged by the company you keep. There's no reason that standard shouldn't apply toward judges appointed to the highest office of the land.

[@kirkwagner461]

An inverted flag is meant to be a signal of distress. Ships at sea needing help, for example. That isn't to say that its meaning could not have been subverted by insurrectionist sympathizers post Jan 6th. I just want people to be aware of its original meaning.

[@joanneperry8021]

I learned the original meaning of an inverted flag some 60 years ago, either in school or Brownies/Girl Scouts. Figures that MAGA would just assume they could change the meaning to their own desires.

[@LionRoarGamer]

You know, we don’t need the government to take the lead on a robust counter propaganda campaign. We’re the U.S., let’s use the free market to develop and implement the campaigns.

[@carolkelley-henshaw9755]

If the Democrats don't stop worrying about "overstepping" we're going to lose our Country!! Seriously!

[@susiemarr4425]

Love Anne Applebaum. Such a brilliant and brave woman.

[@chichitex1252]

Tim, thank you so much for this episode!❤❤❤

[@JenniferBarlow-iy7ql]

Great to hear from the brilliant Anne Appelbaum! Thanks for this conversation.

[@jzk224]

Tim please keep going…Thank you

[@storyteller2882]

The repression of protestants in Russian goes back farther than 30s and 40s. My great-grandfather was exiled to the end of the railroad line just before Mongolia at the time of the tsars for joining and trying to spread the beliefs of an evangelical protestant church (he left Russia through Mongolia).

[@ryukoli4707]

I remember when my neighbors' was applying to the police academy, they were going around to the neighborhood (me included) to interview and I vestigate his background. They seem to do far less when vetting JUDGES! NOT GOOD .........😕

[@joanfregapane8683]

Not the Republican appointed judges - McConnell rammed through judges evaluated as ‘unqualified’ by bar associations. Their politics was all that mattered.

[@geegaw1535]

My concern too is why did Ivanka get copyright for voting machines from china. Why did she need that with other copyrights from them ?

[@jannichi6431]

YES, Harris County Texas judge says a Redo of an election! 439 vote difference? Recounts yes, New Election NO. Governor signed law saying okay.

[@louannkyle602]

Way back when Romney was running for president his family too was invested in voting machines

[@-Gramps]

Anne is simply so damned knowledgeable! Great job, Tim, of letting her explain & explore so much information about authoritarian threats!

[@sbeckwit]

My own approach to countering the lies coming from the forces of authoritarianism, both here and abroad, is material support for The Bulwark, Lawfare, Tim Snyder, Joyce Vance, my local newspaper, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Talking Points Memo, The Democratic Party and others.

[@hereigoagain5050]

I was feeling too happy, so I tuned into Tim & Anne. "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver" is probably the closest thing to Anne & Tim's idea about counter programming. Just good, old fashion, long form journalism.

[@marthawolfsen5809]

Years ago, when we had our boat in a Turkish boatyard, walking across the boatyard was always to the sound of the American public service station; it played American country western endlessly, which all the boat workers loved.

[@dlcs1406]

I would like to see Current Political World History in high schools and Anne Applebaum should write the curriculum texts

[@trippeddownthestairs8238]

No, it's not "the far right"; it is at least 80% of Republicans. Donald Trump is getting about 80% in the Republican primary. And it is also enough of average Americans to keep the presidential polling at neck and neck right now, if not Donald Trump with a slight lead.

[@corporalsoletrain2132]

The Republican Party now includes a lot of Berniebros and independents that had never voted. Conservative moderates left in droves and became independent.

[@christal2641]

The percentage of Republicans who now hold Far Right ideas has gone up for 2 reasons: 1) thuggish types who were never before much interested in politics found a "Voice" and a bigger club to join. 2. Other, more moderate Republicans LEFT THE PARTY.

[@klee7468]

Absolutely nuts. I had not heard that. Can’t congress (dems obviously) impeach Supreme Court judges? What recourse do we have?

[@urkiddingme6254]

Congress could impeach all 9 of them if it wanted to, but it requires a willing House to initiate proceedings (not happening) and a Senate 2/3 majority vote to remove them (not happening). Pretty much similar to the Aileen Canon situation. Very hard to remove any Federal judge, although citizens can file complaints against Aileen with the district court that oversees her. A blue tidal wave may be the only solution.

[@delta5297]

As they wrote over at the New Republic, we can spend this election year in one of two ways. We can spend it debating whether Trump meets the nine or 17 points that define fascism. Or we can spend it saying, “He’s damn close enough, and we’d better fight.”

[@thfpnw7103]

Anne Applebaum is always an insightful guest. Love every time she is on the show.

[@user-bp3bo1qn9f]

Love Anne Apple Applebaum’s insights and analysis. ❤

[@glennmorgan4197]

3:07 It's a symbol of distress and that they have been taken hostage.

[@deepaknayakmanel8581]

Great show...Anne is a terrific journalist. Very well informed.

[@margaretmcnamee6411]

Ann Applebaum has studied Eastern Europe and Russia for a long time. I read many of her books years ago and found them scholarly and engaging.

[@richardgeorge4795]

The upside-down flag signifies distress. That's what I was taught in the military many years ago.

[@browneyedgirl6050]

This conversation Ann had with Senator Warner 🤯. I listened to it, and it has had me more concerned than anything else for the election. I just feel like we are so not prepared for this. We can't control it, we aren't doing much more than the truth will win messaging, and it is just overwhelming in our present day environment. It's coming from all different angles and the normal person sees this and thinks it's legit because there are lawmakers pushing it. It really worries me.

[@earthmama5659]

This is beyond TROUBLING!⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️

[@user-em1fu8eg8l]

I have a book by Ann Applebaum Gulag and one by Timothy Snyder Bloodlands. You two really brought to light the dark history of Eastern Europe, Russia and Nazis Germany.

[@joshualavender]

I believe the reason American evangelicals express admiration for Putin’s religious repression is simply that they see something they want to emulate here. It’s about their desire to do away with separation of church and state, not who exactly Putin’s regime represses.

[@user-oc6dh2yp2w]

It all comes in one package. Theocracy comes with dictatorship, whether they like it or not.

[@tracebearly]

Fantastic interview with Anne Applebaum. Please have her back on whenever she can spare the time!

[@lindagriffith9558]

Thank you so much Tim and Anne! What a great Truth Out Tutorial on russian propaganda, chinese propaganda!!! Tim, I really love your from the desk with the Pinto Beans poster behind to the left, original, with the tropical plant, that angle, well, it's the best for me. So thanks again Tim and Anne for making me All the Wiser!🙏💖☮☸🏳‍🌈

[@markendicott6874]

Excellent episode.

[@tracevicente]

Wonderful week of guests, Tim. Thank you!

[@alicepotter8165]

It's not trivial.

[@annsanse2935]

before you even said "orban" i was thinking that that's who fico was reminding me of. my mom's family emigrated from slovakia. there's a movie out now, "bardejov," which was my grandmother's home town. the movie tells of the jews there who were rounded up and sent to auschwitz. back in the reagan years someone serving in a diplomatic capacity wrote a news column about how his jewish family fled the town and found their way to america. he wrote that the gentiles in bardejov were active in handing over the jews to the nazis, something that i had never heard before in my life.

[@christal2641]

One historian estimated that there were at least 600 families hiding Jews during Occupation. There's a monument to "The Righteous Gentiles."

[@tinadenning3186]

The inverted flag was assigned used by native americans when they were being occupied in pine ridge

[@freeheeler09]

Tim and Anne, thank you for sharing this important conversation!

[@pemdechen6300]

Fascinating conversation. Thank you for this interview.

[@LMB222]

Ms Apfelbaum-Sikorski, thank you for all of your interviews!

[@mikecindywright1893]

How easy it is to blame the wife, yet you had your picture taken with this in full frame!! THAT says more than any spoken claims! I fear the road that these ultra right politicians and judges are leading us. 😢😢😢

[@dlcs1406]

Traitors to the laws of the land

[@smdpc]

Excellent show. Thanks much to both of you. Reasoned, informative, bipartisan, civil discourse. Works when truth is a shared value.

[@user-yf8xe8be8n]

Great show. Anne Applebaum is very knowledgeable and helps understand propaganda.

[@chucktaylor4958]

Politicians need to mention the sources of the information they distribute to their constituents. Any source with ‘freedom’ attached should be suspected of being the opposite, I.e. ‘Freedom Caucus’ is fascist.

[@kosmosyche]

Thank you for such a thoughtful and informed guest, she was a treat to listen to.

[@glennmorgan4197]

I guarantee that the KGB has a presence there. 😢😮🤬

[@dlcs1406]

Why did Duda visit Trump at Trump Towers last month??

[@jeffnickel4648]

Another great one Tim!

[@NITESKYLIGHT]

Great Show - Tim & Anne - very informative, colloquial, and important

[@rosem5060]

Clarence Thomas has expressed actual personal bias against Washington DC in a recent speech. The seat of the US government. Surely that, in and of itself,is disqualifying in US government cases.

[@sbeckwit]

It's good to see Anne smile.

[@JR-pr8jb]

Alito: My wife did it. Wife: My black maid did it.

[@jannichi6431]

Three wives and Josh Hawley, January 6 also. All about PAC money 💰🤮thanks Justice Roberts for Citizens United and Shelby v Holder.

[@jonmeador8637]

Attorneys MUST start filing motions to recuse or nothing wil happen. You can’t get relief you don’t ask for. Smith should have filed one on Thomas pointing out that his wife wore a tinfoil hat on January 6. He still can’t. He needs to file one on Alito instanter.

[@rossvoss5408]

The Russian disconnect from reality is so bizarre one wonders how anyone can swallow all the lies.

[@joeaverage5347]

Wow, super episode of DEEP thoughts & knowledge from Anne Applebaum! MORE, PLS!!!❤

[@MermaidDolphinNYC]

Wow. Great interview but also distressing.

[@Bigfield47]

…it’s character that’s the issue…some on the Supreme Court seem to be lacking. The chief justice has the power to advise and guide so to speak. All he needs is to give himself the permission. The time is right. The need is great.

[@arek7198]

Great podcast, very informative. Thank you very much Ann.

[@hazellove2144]

Excellent project Tim. Keep kanoddling those thoughts.

[@MichalSventek]

Hello from a Slovak listener!

[@LogicAndReason2025]

The German economy did really good for the first few years of the nazys, but it didn't work too well in the long run. I don't understand why people can't see that.

[@carolemonroe4400]

Thank you

[@BIGGLOUPR]

Why Is This Barely Coming Out Now? January 17th Was Well Over 3 Plus Years Ago.....Mainstream Media Outlets Wouldn't Dare Report On That🧐💯🤷‍♂️

[@lindaweitman8564]

If wifey put it up, couldn't he take it dn & put up the right way?

[@rozisaac8239]

Very informative, thank you

[@pamhall1434]

When Colbert went to Russia a few years ago, he help US see Russians, including oligarchs, as we see our own, with a sense of healing humor.

[@mirandashuwera3389]

You would think that the very fact that a Supreme Court Justice felt the need to make such a statement, (hanging the flag upside down) would cause any intellectually honest, critically thinking person to ask themselves if maybe it is THEM that is missing something? 🤔 Only a fool makes up his/her mind before listening to or investigating BOTH sides of an issue. And there are ALWAYS two sides to any story...🤔

[@pamhall1434]

Got Anne's book ❤️📖

[@christinem9183]

My friend's younger step brother went into US Army Intelligence and when he got a top-level secret clearance, the US govt made her & their mother give up her dual citizenship with the UK.

[@terryarmstrong8598]

Pre-ordering from the publisher right now.