Auto Express Track Battle - Honda Civic Type R vs Ford Focus ST

[@OfficialMINIm]

Honestly the best reviewer on “fun” cars. Watching your review was one of the biggest deciding factors when I bought my i20N. The car is a gift that keeps on giving. I recently tracked it for the first time and i realized the car had even more to give. One of my best friends have recently bought the civic type R and so I had a chance to drive and I have to say, I agree with things you say word to word. The type R is a precision tool. It’s both sharp and refined. It has amazing track ability and tight handling and the best part of the car is its gear box. The civic type r really is in a class of its own. I was of the opinion that the car was over priced until I drove it. Once you get behind the wheel of one, you soon realize the high price tag is justified.

[@hathaway.1166]

markups aside, these cars are gonna cost sooo much more in the future

[@MyRealName]

The problem is, it's bone crushing on the road which defeats the purpose of a hot hatch imo. A car of this shape should be easily usable every day and it's not nice to have those awkward moments of silence with passengers in a super stiff car as you drive on any road that isn't perfect.

[@iantownsend500]

I like the FL5 Type R but it’s ridiculously expensive, especially when a FK8 & FK2 are very nearly as good & way cheaper, the FK2 is a bargain in my eyes

[@pokest225]

Fk8 is more or less as good. Track times are not much different. FL5 is a slight evolution of the Fk8 really.

[@jonathan102]

Because the FK2 is incredibly uncomfortable to live with.

[@Synysterjmz]

@@jonathan102£50k for a Honda Civic is an incredibly uncomfortable idea to live with.

[@A4ANT]

@@jonathan102- that raw factor will make it the ONE 🥰

[@cooleye7007]

EXACTLY LOL..FK8 IS WAY MORE BETTER, PULLS FASTER THAN FL5...LOOKS IS SUBJECTIVE I KNOW BUT I STILL PREFER THE FK8 LOOKS OVER FL5...THE ONLY WIN OF FL5 AGAINST FK8 IS 1 SECOND AHEAD ON TRACK COMPARED TO FK8. THATS IT LOL. FK8 PULLS AWAY EVERY SINGLE TIME FROM FL5 WHEN DOING ROLL RACES. THESE ARE JUST FACTS .

[@tracktimevideos5164]

Looks mightily uncomfortable in the Civic, you were bouncing around all over the place.

[@YZJB]

It has multi-mode dampers and he was probably in the hardest mode. They’re comfortable in comfort mode

[@Bruno-xb2mt]

Those seats are well comfy as well

[@14KShadow]

Best, straight to the point, factual car reviews on KZbin. And I watch a lot of reviews

[@v-gun9735]

These track tests are simply the best car videos on KZbin.

[@pawekam2714]

Not quite. Look at Hagerty's drag races.

[@user-245er4ud]

Track tests will always be better than drag for everything other than American muscle cars and Pick-up trucks.

[@v-gun9735]

@pawekam2714 I've seen a few Hagerty videos, they're a good channel but I do find the videos unnecessarily long.

[@markdean3217]

Totally agree, and Steve Sutcliffe is the master and yes one of the best videos on KZbin ❗️👌🏼

[@van_der_lindeDA]

​@@pawekam2714 the quality of those are exceptional, but this is straight to the point excellence

[@cj41079]

Missed Steve and AE track battle series.....❤ Happy New year folks!

[@THEDOPEYDAISY]

I only watch videos on this channel with Mr Suttcliffe. I love these reviews on the track.

[@lastexile1187]

Youd have to wonder how much faster the focus would be with 320bhp and 265 section tyres. Both are an advantage for the civic.

[@pokest225]

A lot of details to have in mind. Civic has wider tires and more power. But st has coilovers, light wheels, semi slick tires....not really that uneven comparison.

[@lastexile1187]

i didnt say it was uneven, just curious as how to much faster the focus would be, fellow mk2 ST owner :) @@pokest225

[@pokest225]

​@@lastexile1187probably it can match the Civic in that scenario. But then again, is not apples VS apples. Ex mk2 st owner. Nice memories of that car. 😊

[@user-ct7ph6rr9c]

Focus has semi slicks. It has the advantage. Worth about 0.8 around this track easily

[@verothacamaro]

That new Type-R is such a good looking car. Honda nailed the design.

[@Daniel_1985_UK]

6 tenths off the ctr with 45hp less.... stick a map on the focus to get it to similar power and I think the focus would be 6 tenths quicker than the ctr.

[@pokest225]

Stick coilovers, light wheels, semi slick tires to the Honda, and start the game again....the comparison is about stock cars.

[@Daniel_1985_UK]

@@pokest225 but again, the power should also be equal then.

[@pokest225]

@@Daniel_1985_UK but again, the cars are what they are from factory. And the results are there. With the Focus already moded.

[@vjdfl5]

Yeah and you could say the same for the Honda. Equal out the tires and it would be even further ahead

[@zinkernator]

Focus was very quick then for a much cheaper car. As it’s a quick as the previous ctr and with the saving cost new could have a lot more done to it. I think modern cars are way over priced now though as nearly £50k for ctr is. A lot of money.

[@Diamus101]

The ST needs the Mountune M330 map. Many of us ST owners map ours without a second thought.

[@alsayedfakhri4597]

Would still probably be embarrassed around a track.

[@Diamus101]

@@alsayedfakhri4597 Nevertheless, would be an interesting head to head.

[@rich8561]

The st mapped to give similar figures to the Honda.. I’m with the ST all day long..

[@gypsyemperor7535]

​@@alsayedfakhri4597Focus with 330bhp destroys it

[@ripptorr]

​@@rich8561I guess you got bored of Honda beating everything out there right? 😁. But it really is a better car

[@l4n3y]

So as an owner of an st track pack I believe the gap could be a little closer if the suspension was played with properly I think it’s very basic setup from the factory I’m desperate to get mine corner weighted to see how well it is setup think there’s a finer balance to be had.

[@matthowell8985]

I own a gla 45 amg, and iv gotten the better of a few type r while playing on the free way. Never tried an st out, but I imagine I could get it there as well. I'm at 375hp, about 3600lbs and awd.

[@georgemavrides3434]

@@matthowell8985 AWD, power and sticker price aside, the GLA is not a hot hatch. I doubt it would match either of these on track.

[@matthowell8985]

@georgemavrides3434 ots a hatch back the size of a civic r. Feels like a hot hatch to me. You really think the scat would beat the amg on a track? the scat heavy, rear wheel drive and has the drag coefficient of a sail boat🤣 your entitled to your opinion.

[@simonb1162]

It would be interesting to see the results had the ST been running the Mountune M330

[@pokest225]

So fit coilovers, light wheels, semi slick tires to the Civic then....

[@tracktimevideos5164]

​@@pokest225the civic already costs £12k more so giving in £5k of mods also rather than just a £500 remap seems excessive.

[@pokest225]

@@tracktimevideos5164 the cars are what they are from factory, and the results are what they are. If remap..., if mod this..., or that... not the case. Stock cars, the results are there.

[@tracktimevideos5164]

@@pokest225 my point being that for a £500 remap the focus would be quicker and £11500 cheaper.

[@pokest225]

@@tracktimevideos5164 and still with a lot of mods to barelly catch the Civic in a very tight and short track. In other scenarios it will be still slower despite all the mods fitted. Being fast costs money. That's why the Civic is faster than every other fwd hatches, and even faster than some awd ones from factory, and the others are slower even modded like in this case.

[@KTH96]

The Type R has Steve bouncing around like he's on a trampoline 😂

[@TassieLorenzo]

Sure! I think the engineer may have got carried away. The FL5 is tuned more for Japanese tastes like the FD2 Type R -- i.e., rock hard suspension. Japan is the main market for the car again ("wind knocked out of me on every bump" as Vicki Butler Henderson said on Fifth Gear about the FD2 Type R). The Integra Type S damper control module softens all three suspension modes and is said to "fix" this.

[@Guillaume0688]

​@@TassieLorenzoso the focus RS mk3 was designed for Japanese tastes lol but with 4wd!

[@MyRealName]

It's useless on the road, which a good hot hatch should never be imo.

[@vjdfl5]

It's honestly so fun and funny when you get bounced around in it. I've hit a couple bumps and fully gotten air out of my seat. Almost brings me to tears laughing

[@ammaralfuzaia4933]

thank you very much steve you're the best ever in term of track battle please we want more 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻✊✊✊

[@WarDog1567]

I’ve always had fast fords I love them and worked for them for nearly 20 years. However I currently work for Honda and the new Type R is something special. I took one for a test drive an immediately fell in love and I’ve never been a massive Honda fan but this car 👏😁 best toy ever

[@kevin-l7r7p]

It's surprising how intertwined the British journo scene is, Sutcliffe, Harris, Catchpole, Harry, Meaden, Jethro...tons more (I guess) from the days of written press. Sutcliffe should have some more 'views' to his name

[@Da-Real-Cookie-Monster]

We all knew the answer before watching but will still a very entertaining video.

[@PetexRocc]

The Civic has 49 more PS, it wound be interesting to see this again with the Mountune 330 upgrade on the Focus.

[@northseawolf]

I remember my EP3 Type R. A year old and cost me less than 15k. Now I have a Mk 3.5 ST estate which is all the car I need for shifting the kids and still having fun on the weekend.

[@leoesposito8762]

im a Ford man and the Focus gave the Type R a good run for it's money looks like but hats off to the Type R.. great video too...

[@BrandonHawk21]

The RS is its "competition. Not the ST. That's embarrassing for Honda 😆

[@pokest225]

​@@BrandonHawk21check track times around the world. Nobody embarrased Honda to this day. Not even the RS wich has awd and more power. How can it be embarrasing if Ford had to modify the st and still don't win?

[@van_der_lindeDA]

@@BrandonHawk21 clown

[@harrysamwel3665]

@@pokest225Like everyone says.. This is from factory, so it’s not ”modded” from Ford. This is simply one version of the car. Stock the Type R is the clear better car for track. However for daily/mixed use there are other factors to be considered. It would be nice to see how much a M330 tune would do to the STs track time. I would guess it just about would beat the Type R. But that’s not fair. You should always only compare factory delivered cars. What’s point otherwise? Any car can be changed or tuned to be faster.

[@CharlySayz]

Would be good to see both cars with the same tyres and the same bhp :)

[@rich8561]

Exactly, it’s not rocket science what would win

[@dqkneely9803]

I'm surprised more people haven't made this comparison. especially since this is, according to speculation, supposed to be the last year for the ST. if i were on the market for a hot hatch i would be torn for sure. i like them both...

[@tracktimevideos5164]

£12k difference in price

[@dqkneely9803]

Cant be! not optioned as shown, I personally have not researched the price but that just seems like such a massive margin. if its the ford that's cheaper then shouldn't that win by default with fairly similar specs? unless its the honda thats cheaper. if so then....hot damn thats a no brainer however im going to take a guess its the former.@@tracktimevideos5164

[@wainerollins2587]

Focus ST every time. The Type R is a great car too, but it is not worth the asking price, especially whilst the Focus ST exists.

[@lachezarstefanov7238]

With more than 40 hp difference, Ford trying to keep up with the Civic. That’s insane!

[@tinhinnh]

“its got some tricked tires” “it doesn’t have any suprises up its sleeves”

[@vjdfl5]

Getting bounced around in +R mode is rough, but it honestly makes me giggle like a little kid. It's outrageous, and i love it

[@ENGBriseB]

The ST was not blown away I knew it wouldn't win because there's not many hot hatchbacks that do. But i like Ford ST.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

I haven't seen Steven for a while, maybe it's me? But this was his usual great presentation!

[@rjung_ch]

Thanks, another great one Steve! 👍💪✌

[@BusterBurnwell]

Sutcliffe YOU LEGAND

[@chrismillard3044]

Given the money, I would love a Focus St and a new Type r, my old 2009 type r is amazing fun and you feel the road with no trick electronics. Great reviews

[@davebutler6405]

I’ll have the focus please.

[@Jdm_fl5]

I absolutely love my fl5. It does everything a hot hatch should do plus more

[@van_der_lindeDA]

Bro they are amazing cars!

[@miamiandkai]

ST engine is detuned by Ford. They`ve cut off the high rev power and torque pretty big. Give the engine a Mountune M330 tune so it has the same HP like the R and the Ford will be quicker.

[@pokest225]

Probably. But give the honda the same suspension, light wheels, sticky tires....and the game remains the same again. The cars came stock like this. They are what they are.

[@van_der_lindeDA]

Honda engine detuned by Honda, same engine in ariel atom is 400hp...same same.

[@Stokey_73]

Mighty Steve. Love both machines. Content assured. The Civic is a class apart but really like both. Can you imagine how well the Civic would go round on same trick tires as the Ford ST?

[@taurussho86]

Not much better, if at all

[@perenevoldsen1054]

Civic + 45 bhp

[@pokest225]

​@@taurussho86 Of course. It would do clearly better on track tires. No less than 1-1'5 seconds probably.

[@harrysamwel3665]

Yes, but put a stage 1 on Focus with a really good short shifter and you still have a cheaper car. Better suspensions and brakes.. But the chassie is probably better on Civic. With similar specs on the engine you might see a much closer time difference. You can really see how much the Civic shakes in the video.. Driving this agressive for 10-15 laps would be really tiresome I would think. Also suspension makes a big difference using the car daily.. Comparing these two at the max is one thing but using them every day on normal roads and I’d probably choose the Focus.

[@pokest225]

@@harrysamwel3665 suspension is adjustable in the Civic. Through the driving menu in the screen. So You can have a softer car if you want. You can't adjust the Focus coilovers all the time.

[@alsayedfakhri4597]

Upgraded from FK8 to FL5 and the improvements, when put together, make a vast difference. Its a much better car for those that can afford the difference.

[@person2186]

Great video guys

[@zammo7211]

If your daily drive is carried out solely on a track, and you have no warm feelings for your vertebrae, the Type R looks tiptop. On the other hand, should you have to live in the real world and need simply to get from A to B most of the time, I can’t imagine anyone picking the R over the ST.

[@bossadave]

Not sure where you can buy one for £46,999 anymore???

[@raduanatol6329]

We enjoyed! Thank You!

[@musicchap]

Great to see hot hatches on the spotlight again!

[@jerehada]

Thought the seat in the Civic was going to break it was bouncing around that much. Took more kerb?

[@alenseven11]

I love these videos, and Steve driving and commenting on tested cars. Sure, Honda is the best there is as far as hot hatches go, and I want one, but when you take price difference in consideration, Ford is a great compromise with all the components it has on it.

[@snotwurfit]

Just lovely to see two proper manual cars instead of that flippy-floppy paddleshift nonsense... It's what makes the driving experience for us old skool people, it's what makes things fun!

[@Xenon0000000000001]

I was enjoying having the flappy-paddle nonsense when stuck on the M6 yesterday. 😂

[@snotwurfit]

@@Xenon0000000000001 🤣🤣🤣

[@Earl_VTEC]

The two best hot hatches at the moment!

[@DjNikGnashers]

LOL

[@Alex-dz6xw]

What lol clown ​@@DjNikGnashers

[@neilmcguinness4422]

The Civic is definitely one of the best, probably THE best, and the ST is a good enough car, but there are many 'hot' hatchbacks that would definitely keep the Ford out of the Top Ten.

[@leeengland1748]

Nah GR yaris and FL5

[@Alex-dz6xw]

@@leeengland1748 GR corolla is in this same category..not yaris

[@NowYaKnow965]

If only we had an RS to compare...

[@jdmguy44]

Love the CTR. I would definitely have one if I could.

[@mikewozawski1634]

Love my 2016 focus st car was great.

[@miskomarkovic3446]

Thank you! Keep on

[@user-245er4ud]

Finally, track tests! All of the other drag tests and things are basically meaningless with "other than USDM" non-muscle cars.

[@giovannifacci]

Love the Civic. Problem in my area Honda dealer are non existent. And they just don’t get enough allocations. While Ford dealers are quite established around my area and they do get the car.

[@jacksun_jack]

The Honda shift noise is a tad annoying but what a rig

[@StakedWealth369]

Great content

[@Depp500]

Watching the test driver jump while driving the Honda makes me wonder if that car even has suspension? Personally, Ford seems to me to be a much more civilized sportsman.. 😉

[@jamiep61]

I enjoyed watching the Video 😊

[@paulknightley]

I'm sure I saw Steve leading the 'Dogs' on Slow Horses...! ;)

[@georgemavrides3434]

Slap on an ECU remap on the ST to unlock the factory power (emission regulations) to 320-330 and it's right up there. I love the Honda but it's just too expensive for the hot hatch segment (def not 30% better than the ST sticker price).

[@suttonsplash14]

Steve Sutcliffe rulez!

[@aryaahmadi4029]

STEVE Suttcliffe is up there with HONDA CIVIC TYPE-R.

[@noname-rj4ot]

Yes but the ST in my opinión it would be best in batle with a honda SI and the type R with a focus RS 👌👌

[@user-gr4oz8jb1o]

The Golf R also should have been included in this test as well.

[@vincenth1030]

No mucking around with type Rs

[@LeakyWaders]

God i hate they didn't bring the new STs to the States

[@BigBeets]

50 bhp was the difference

[@robinmarples5198]

The honda has more in comon with a sedan than a hot hatch. Style, size, etc

[@billd.6684]

Both great. Not racing, so don't care about 0.6 sec on track, just looking for fun. I'd get the ST and use the extra money for a street triple R or another fast bike.

[@erikregnell3609]

The Hot Hatch is dead :( 40,000£ --- 50,000£ ?? The market is crazy, and this era of cars will die soon...

[@TassieLorenzo]

Of course, it's all about reducing CO2/km now. Hybrids and then EVS.

[@THEDTSMAN]

You cannot buy replacement Corsa tyres in the UK at all! This is a serious issue when they sell the car in the UK. Can only get the Corsa tyres shipped to the Uk and it ain’t cheap!!

[@ak2112]

I'd have the ford. Shame they don't sell it here anymore.

[@donsonbr]

great video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@MrSnorkelsucker]

Steve Sutcliffe is right up there with the best driver / reviewers. The skill he has pedalling at the speed he does yet still comprehensively explains how the car is behaving is majestic. A certain other 'Auto' magazine could learn a thing or two that's for sure . . .

[@global_nomad.]

keep thinking on every review of the type R that it should really be thought of as an Accord Type R so we dont have to keep hearing about the price and size....Honda Jazz type R anyone? ha ha

[@TheAwareHuman]

0.6 seconds slower and to say the focus was nowhere close - that’s kinda stupid thing to say. My pick is the ST. It’s the better daily driver. Compliant ride. Built solid. Looks great. Powerful. Sporty. Comes in green. And is a great size for punting it around narrow European towns.

[@PeterWebsterFilms]

The gearbox is not fantastic. There is occasional gear-grind in 1-2 shifts. In a Clarkson Top Gear episode this gear grind can be heard on the Stig drive.

[@Andrewlevski65]

47k for a Honda Civic, just looked on Autotrader 5k deposit, £705 a month and final payment of 24k. Id have the focus personally as id never go to a track so these times are pointless.

[@PeterWebsterFilms]

Not the best on wet roundabouts. The Focus RS takes that crown - while the Type R would be wheelspinning its way into the Armco.

[@tracktimevideos5164]

So if the focus had the extra 45bhp that the civic has it would likely be faster......

[@pokest225]

So if the Civic had all the chassis mods that the Focus has It would likely remain faster... Standard cars, the results are there.

[@tracktimevideos5164]

@@pokest225 what chassis mods? The Focus is a standard car but down 45bhp but is £12k cheaper and half a second a lap slower.

[@pokest225]

@@tracktimevideos5164 kW coilovers, light wheels, semi slick tires...like this Focus has fitted to it.

[@tracktimevideos5164]

@@pokest225 it's a standard car straight from the dealer

[@pokest225]

@@tracktimevideos5164 of course. With a track pack wich is optional. And has all of these expensive parts I listed. Fit all these parts to the Civic and start the game again.... The Focus shown here is the brands max effort. The Civic is still the standard basic model with no mods, no packs, no nothing ... Imagine the possibilities. Civic is the fastest hot hatch from factory. There's no denying possibility. Price is another different subject.

[@JuanAntonEgo]

Pretty weaksauce from the FocusST . I thought it was going to win. Had an advantage from wheelbase, & specially sticky tires should have suited this track as well. I'm surprised it's smaller & weights more than a TypeR Great vid. As always!

[@gaycha6589]

It has JUST. not had the depth and quantity of engineering skill resource applied to it as the CTR. A fair effort from Ford, but outclassed by Honda. Mind you at £50k CTR should be good.

[@stanleyflooring6772]

@@gaycha6589 yeah i mean a remap and maybe some coilovers on the focus and it'd be much quicker. the civic is so expensive

[@pokest225]

​@@stanleyflooring6772this Focus has coilovers on it already. Also semi slick tires. And better brakes.

[@TheSoundzUK]

​@pokest225 it has fords adjustable suspension, not coilovers? They didnt mention.

[@pokest225]

@@TheSoundzUK track pack. kW coilovers.

[@irfaan7868]

Steve in a Hot Honda win win👍🏼👍🏼

[@deanowarrior]

The Honda is a weapon and will be more reliable but 50k for that ride/interior quality in daily driving. Even when on low setting its stiff. Rwd or 4wd for me fun at all speeds. GR yaris =all weather greatness and rear bias 4wd,unbeatable on real roads.

[@davothegreat9990]

Gr corolla beats the gr Yaris though. Elantra N again, faster.

[@1989rs500]

Not all Hondas are reliable, here n Australia there r lot f Honda nut heads who r dissatisfied with latest and Fk5 civics

[@deanowarrior]

@@davothegreat9990 not with the circuit pack only the regular one.

[@adamcockayne1325]

A shame there isnt a new focus rs to compare it to instead of focus st i think awd rs would smoke both of them round track

[@polopowered]

Dont baulk at the cost of the Honda. You can pay £43k for a Toyota C-HR, and thats before the Plug-In powertrain pricing is announced. What a time to be alive.

[@mahmoudminkara]

Not once, you have tried the Renault 4 Megane RS trophy whether EDC or Manual. Something fishy around here. RS 280 CUP is not a justifiable car against others.

[@crocoman776]

Is there a leaderboard for the times?

[@jtjtrs8806]

😂 track testing front wheel drive cars is like doing burn out donuts with a Front wheel drive ! Hilarious !

[@pokest225]

Your Ferrari does better

[@van_der_lindeDA]

@pokest225 the man driving a fiat panda, leave him

[@TassieLorenzo]

90% of the cars in the BTCC are front wheel drive. Yeah, they are not as fast as GT3 cars, but they are actually pretty comparable to GT4 as production-based rear wheel drive sportscars tend to be quite heavy. Front wheel drive obviously came to favour in compact cars as it provides for more interior space, with the rear wheel drive (old fashioned?) Ford Escort being discontinued in the early 80's and the rear wheel drive Toyota Corolla in the late 80's. The Civic (and almost all Honda passenger cars) were never rear wheel drive in the first place (only the sportscars like the S-series and NSX were rear wheel drive).

[@FriendsOfTheRoad]

The type r is amazing but jesus man the price is a joke

[@adamek9750]

Is this the last petrol civic type r?

[@g4do]

The focus has less hp now? I guess the 350 hp version was too stressful to the engine? Or is that a different trim level? I'm confused 😕 why did Ford reduce the hp ?

[@gabrielledergerber5585]

Because it's "just" the ST. Simple as that... and its FWD whil the RS was AWD (only?).

[@fordforever6814]

Half a second slower or new back and neck? Deside.😅

[@matthowell8985]

I call b.s. on the 171mph for the civic. Thought they were capped at 155. Iv seen one do 140 or so but never 170+

[@fastlane2914]

CTR all the way!!

[@justinbunting3027]

That civic is beautiful in that colour blue and I sooo want 1 👍

[@darrenprior6339]

Goodness gracious. I'm glad Samantha Fox wasn't driving that Civic, otherwise my eyes would hurt.

[@minimumtrade]

Is Stevo in R mode here? Very Rough ride!

[@markrhoden68]

Shame if we're going to compare two cars that they don't have at least the same levels of power. One car with what 270hp the other with with 320hp, comparing these two is like comparing the old M2c and the M2cs one is just a more focused more powerful car from the off

[@ripptorr]

Can we just agree that since renault gave up the hot hatch game there will be no one beating the type R ever again?

[@khalidsti2559]

unfortunately ford St has been discontinued in America and middle east countries

[@dukedaz8920]

Would have the focus just on looks civic looks awful get test though 😎

[@rogersliu1200]

i30n and elantra N DCT maybe?

[@pokest225]

I30 is slower. Elantra doesn't exist here.

[@gumpy4960]

I’m still not a fan of the new type r looks, it’s looks kind of boring now and doesn’t have much shape to it. I’d still have the fk8 type r and save myself 12k

[@van_der_lindeDA]

You haven't seen the car in person....it is timeless, and having owned the FK8 the FL5 is worlds apart. You can't tell people they would need to see for themselves....and it's made in Japan.

[@gumpy4960]

@@van_der_lindeDA I have seen it in person and it doesn’t look any better. It’s roof line it to high, wheels to small and no particular lines to it that stand out. On top of that the rear wing looks aftermarket and stuck on, I’m just not a fan of it. It is by all account pretty much the same as the fk8 in terms of how it drives.

[@DjNikGnashers]

@@gumpy4960 You could save yourself £20,000 and do what I did, and buy a super low mileage, 1 owner from new, M2. A car which is several levels above both of these in every way 🙂

[@van_der_lindeDA]

@gumpy4960 I really don't need to try convince you that it's good looking...clearly you don't have an eye for design, wider than an M2, wider track than any other hot hatch, lower than pretty much all other cars in its class...and if you had seen it in person you would understand the wing actually suits it....but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if you don't like the design the car wasn't made for you. But one thing I must add is nothing will please everyone....the last fk8 looked ridiculous, I mean I had one and I can say that....bought the fl5 and daily i look at it and realize how timeless the design is without being to in your face....and I have both in the same colour sonic grey pearl....I then had people not even know i have changed cars, meaning honda was able to change the design to be more pleasing to the eye without taking away its presence. So you can't argue that. And lastly i wouldn't want a second gear grind, therefore I will go for the FL5 with that I also get a badge on the door that says MADE IN JAPAN.

[@gumpy4960]

@@van_der_lindeDA seem I’ve hurt your feelings because I don’t like the look of the car you bought. It’s honestly a boring shapeless car but thats my opinion. Who cares if it’s made in Japan, the fk8 wasn’t and was best in its class so what does it matter. None of what the fl5 has can justify it being atleast 12k more than the fk8.