Your wheel nuts: The ghetto engineer's guide to torque & lubrication | Auto Expert John Cadogan

[@Swoop142]

Good video as a retired aircraft mechanical engineer one point you missed on is the surface face of the rim and hub, both need to be clean and free from chipped paint, dirt etc Back in early 2000 their was a time when a public bus company had a lot of wheels coming loose and a few occasions they came off, all nuts correctly torqued but with paint chipping on the both faces the nuts become loose. Recommend anyone changing a wheel to wipe both surfaces the hub and rim both sides especially if Dusty, sandy, muddy areas

[@AutoExpertJC]

Agreed. Thanks. I didn't mention that.

[@needmoreboost6369]

That’s one to watch on any vehicle! And could be used as an excuse! personally knowing one of these said companies and their failure was simply using the incorrect wheels. Regardless inadequate knowledge and training has no place working on such vehicles!

[@electrake2063]

Yeah, I can attest to the excessive robustness of the wheel studs. From when I was about 13 years old working on cars I used to lubricate my wheel studs when reassembling and I NEVER reduced the torque value I applied until I went to college (majored in Electrical Engineering - Minored in Mechanical) and better understood the dynamics of a bolted joint. I NEVER broke a wheel stud even with a lubricated stud at full torque. Now I do 80% and fight the urge to do more (it never feels like enough). I've also never had a wheel nut loosen up in my 45 years of working cars. So I can attest that 80% isn't a bad number.

[@davidstewart3868]

50 years of driving in the North American rust belt has given me appreciation for anti-seize. Make sure the wheel to hub mating surfaces are clean, apply a thin film of your favorite flavor of anti-seize to the surfaces and threads. You won’t regret it next time you need to remove the wheels for maintenance or roadside repair. Nice hat John. Dave in CLE.

[@darrellmellott6096]

I was a boilermaker in another life and the rule of thumb for torque on bolted connections was "Tighen 'er a much as you can, then 2 more turns, and she'll never leak." However, this is probably a bad idea for your alloy car wheels. Mr. Cadogan is absolutely correct that when stud manufactures say "dry connection" it means a coating of light oil (not actually dry). A SMALL amount of copper coat, or even better, a nickel based lubricant isn't a bad idea and multiplying by 0.7 is also a good approximation of the reduction of the specified torque that should be applied. I have a boat trailer that regularly gets dipped into the salty water. Because of the way the brakes are designed, the wheels are held on with screws, not studs and nuts. I put a small amount of non-hardening gasket sealer on the threads before installing and never had a issue with getting the wheels off when I need to.

[@PiratePawly]

If they can push a pram, they can push a mower😇. Love your episodes in general, great information on the engineering vids. CEE is great as well, top bloke and his dog doing great work. Love his machines.

[@user-JamesBond]

Thanks for your videos. We can always count on your knowledge (Engineering). I don't see anyone else on Social Media that does what you do. Thanks to you I use a Torque wrench.

[@LTVoyager]

Ever watch Engineering Explained? Or Smarter Every Day?

[@JohnMcClain-p9t]

Try cutting edge engineering, I've long enjoyed his provisions.

[@user-JamesBond]

@@LTVoyager if it wasn't for John I wouldn't know how to set my my driver and passenger side mirrors. Thanks to him he's basically saved my life.

[@CrimeVid]

Never used a Torque wrench on wheelnuts and don't own any type of rattlegun, never use neversieze. Just tighten them till the spider gets stiff, give the wheel a few belts with a rubber mallet(or something !) give the nut a half to quarter turn. A new to you motor ? before undoing wheel nuts, douse the wheel nuts with whatever you have, they'll come off !

[@g.m.5448]

✌ I use the same stuff (copper Anti-seize) for decades now. Always fine for me, never any corrosion or seizing.

[@38skippers]

Worked for Tommi Makinen 1990 Rally Australia, and we used a small preset torque bar that ran quite a low rating. Any tighter and the wheel studs sheer due to thermal expansion.

[@johncooper4637]

To lube or not to lube, that is the question. Being aware of the differences in torque required by having read a pamphlet by Never Seez back in 1965, I always check to see what is required. Never Seez stated that you were to lower your torque values by 40% when using their product. In the case of my standard motor vehicles, the studs are supposed to be clean and dry. My Alcoa Budd wheels on my motor home, based on a bus chassis, require lubrication at certain places before torquing to 500 foot pounds. Since I do not have a 600 foot pound torque wrench I bought a torque multiplier so that I could use my 250 foot pound torque wrench. An inconvenient feature of the studs on the motor home is that one side is left hand thread.

[@gerardwood4059]

Hitting the breaker bar with a hammer works really well. Word of warning, the shock wave that you put into the breaker bar, that helps undo the wheel nut, also goes into your hand and arm at the other end of the breaker bar. So do wrap a thick cloth or something around it to absorb the shock. Alternatively, do not push hard on the breaker bar, or hit it less hard with the hammer. Start gently and work up to more force, until the nut comes undone! Remember keep all parts of your body out of the way, nuts, especially hydraulic, have a tendency to suddenly become loose, you do not want to hit yourself with the hammer.

[@ridervfr2798]

Love the shock, over the slow gentle pull. Genius

[@peglor]

One feature on wheel nuts that is essential but not understood is the purpose of conical shape of the back of the nut which matches the hole in the wheel. This is to counter a behaviour called thread precession, which causes bolts that see a circular loading in shear to work loose if the load spins in the wrong direction. This was initially remedied by having left hand threads on one side of the car (In the era of wire spoke wheels and hammer off central wheel nuts), and can still be found on bicycle pedals, which are left hand threaded on the left side.

[@darkerbinding6933]

I completely agree with you. I'm not as good about removing torque after I use lubrication but I do use less and I've never had one come lose (or break from over torque). On a real-life experience, we bought a used Ford F150 pickup and needed to remove the wheels to replace brake components. I got out my normal 1/2" drive rachet and was unable to remove a single nut. So I got out a 2 foot breaker bar and was only able to remove 1 nut on each wheel. 😐 My assumption was that someone used a very large impact wrench to put them on, which was more than irritating. I ended up buying a large impact wrench and ultimately got all but one nut off which I finally took it to a tire shop and they used a torch to heat it enough to get it off. Did I say grrrr... oh I did. So the interesting part of this (to me) was that I learned it's not the friction between the nut threads and bolt (stud) threads that is the issue in this particular application. It's from the friction between the nut face and the wheel. The tire shop said especially on these F150 pickups they see this frequently where the nuts are torqued to spec but later become much harder to remove. The answer I'm told is to put a small amount of antiseize on the face of the nut. I'm only about 3yrs into ownership of this F150 so I can't swear this is "the" answer but so far so good. Long story, sorry, but maybe it is helpful to someone.

[@nndorconnetnz]

I've used Copper coat for the last 40 years. It's been a tremendous help re fasteners exposed to the elements. Like wheel nut as John points out. The nuts don't unwind and when you do unwind them with force they don't bind. Yet they do hold when left so long as they are torqued up right.

[@stevestupuras1804]

Work with fitters at the moment, this was great to hear. Great way to explain - in detail - how there's some room for error either side of the genuine torque setting with consideration to Ali or steel wheels. Experience tells me inexperienced people usually (and forgivingly) overtighten anything. I was one of them. Cheers

[@TedRad56]

I bought a cordless rattle gun that I keep in my car for wheel removal. Comes in handy for other mechanical jobs too. I Enjoy your work John 😊

[@Tod-yi7jv]

And by the time you need it, the battery is dead. Just grease the studs

[@BorisEkner]

Great video as always. Next items to buy is a torque wrench and some copper grease. When my rims won’t come off, I loosen the nuts 1-1,5 turns and drive car forward as well as in reverse and hit the bakes in both directions. The click heard tells me the rim are now ready to come off.

[@johnflynn556]

Great advice. Even if I think I already know the answers, it is always good to hear knowledgeable advice. There is always some small nugget of wisdom from another person's experience to be obtained. Thanks.

[@soundknight]

This was a really great episode. Been doing a lot of rotor and break pad changing at home starting easy just doing 2 sets of pads then doing all 8 rotors and 8 sets of pads on our family cars. Have cleaned with acetone on general but also break cleaner spray (mechanic strength - smells like ammonia) and haven't lubed the nuts, just scrubbed down with wire brush - I haven't had this much satisfaction in years! Got Brembo pads all around, DBA rotors on my forester and Brembo on wife's Jazz. I noticed that my local premium branded Japanese tyre centre over tightens the occasional nut and over inflates the tyres. I bought a compressor to fix the problem. I love my two torque wrenches, they give me piece of mind and a sense of satisfaction knowing there is a right way only to use tools. I went to school with Jezza - he hasn't changed. Plays a wicked electric start into a Hotrodded Marshall amp! Question: the Honda engineers seem to have put white nut lock on the bottom bolts for the caliper pins... do I have to reapply these or would I be better just changing out the bolts?

[@05hit]

Good info, I once had to use a lever and bent a wheel brace in order to remove wheel nuts that were installed by rattle gun. The tyre shop compensated me by way of a new wheel brace

[@Low760]

You've done this before. Good effort John.

[@GBiv78]

The budget version is just a piece of pipe about the same length as the factory wheel brace that fits over the handle of the factory wheel brace. It solves the problem of the missus not being able to remove a wheel and it fits in the bag with the factory brace

[@maifantasia3650]

@@logicthought24 - apart from putting out the garbage, men do have other uses and it's handy to keep a couple around.

[@GBiv78]

@@logicthought24 I actually came up with this for a female friend who was concerned she wouldn't be able to change it. And then we did a practice run to ensure everything was within her capacity. And I didn't even get accused of mansplaining

[@RogerSutton-ik9fj]

​@@logicthought24 Just like you won't meet the woman who empties the portable loo at the cara park dump point. You do not metoo dude

[@L0000NEY]

As an engineer who has spent decades working exclusively in the water and sewer industry, I am happy to let you know the correct term is "Maintenance Hole".

[@AutoExpertJC]

'Shithole' seems more accurate in the case of access chambers for the sewer.

[@L0000NEY]

@@AutoExpertJC well, as I am sure you can imagine, the amount of dad jokes about "dirty manholes" abound in this industry, that seems akin to your comment.

[@chrissmith2114]

This is why the hand tight and angle method is more accurate, hand tight just means for the nut or bolt head to touch the surface and then an angle ( depends on pitch of thread ) to enure the correct amount of pre-load ( stretch of the stud ). Torque is quoted for a dry thread, once lubricated the torque is 25 to 30% less... Get one of those telescopic wheel wrenches - use the collapsed length to tighten nuts and use the extended length to slacken..

[@JohnMcClain-p9t]

I never cease to be amazed at the number of cross-references between a number of engineering channels I enjoy, particularly CEE. Quite edifying even here in "Merica".

[@psychoal1967]

Thanks John. I’ve been using copper slip for years now without issue, although have not used the torque correction, may start using that. The point about smearing this onto the hub/wheel before putting the wheel on is good one as I had this trouble before reading about copper slip. Picture me (85 kg of muscle) using a length of timber as a level and pulling harder than an Olympic rower to shift the wheel! Just have to be careful not to get any on your brake disc / rotor unless you want the ABS to cut in unexpectedly.

[@lasentinal]

Once again, an excellent and accurate technical explanation. Keep up the good work sir.

[@christianchristiansen99]

John, the description of your interaction with the phone operator at Sydney Water was probably the funniest thing I heard all year. Cheers!

[@stco2426]

100% agree with all this. You did something on bolted joints (and wheel studs) a little while ago and this is is consistent with that. I once had to remove a set of wheel bolts (VW) after an ape had tightened them with a giant rattle gun and I needed a 2m extension (scaffold pole) on a breaker bar. The bolts were stretched and dramatically bent like banannas and these gave off sparks at each thread turn. I'm no fan of inept garages like this and wish I'd filmed the shoddy practise. I'll never go back to that place (also their lifting techniques were terrible). Good contnet here!

[@TonyWhite22351]

It’s Curtis at Cutting Edge Engineering John !

[@robstone4537]

As a civil engineer, you carefully calculating the exact size of components, then you apply a safety factor. Basically you spend a lot of time working out the strength needed for something and then you make it three times stronger than you think just to be safe.

[@AutoExpertJC]

Same with mechanical, dude. The factors of safety are huge.

[@robstone4537]

@@AutoExpertJC On the negative side when it comes to cars I always think “There is a big safety factor here, I can push it quite far”

[@AutoExpertJC]

There's always that. Especially with cranes, slings, etc.

[@lakorai2]

Until the bean counters get a hold of the project and tell the engineer to slash costs by 50%

[@soundknight]

@@lakorai2ford.

[@LTVoyager]

Since most lug nuts are specified to be torqued in a “clean and dry” state, I tend to do so that way. This also lessens the chance that the garage monkey will yield a stud when replacing my lug nuts during mandatory annual state inspection, which is a crock, but that is another topic. If the nuts and studs are lubricated, combined with the overtorque from an impact gun, it isn’t that hard to ruin a stud. To prevent corrosion, I add grease to the stud and outer face of the nut after installation. This prevents corrosion, but lessens the risk that someone will not apply the lubricant torque reduction factor and ruin one of my studs. It is easy to clean off the little bit of grease at the next wheel change before removing and installing the nuts again.

[@rickbammesberger1721]

Great dissertation John. One thing to possibly touch on would be star pattern torquing and the effects of bolt interaction; both part of my daily world as a gasket manufacturer. Maybe overkill for a five lug wheel but maybe not, never looked closely at it. Cheers!

[@douglasmarriner6571]

Great presentation John. Gotta say that I've never put strain gauges on wheel nut arrangements before. Although I have put them on spark plugs. The only challenge was explaining that they weren't dangerous when going through the security gat at Tullamarine.

[@AutoExpertJC]

I don't think anyone ever strain gauges wheel studs.... they're so far from failure when tightened to spec at 65% yield stress.

[@stevegoodwin5841]

I roll the same using lube and torque reduced by 30% on my 4x4. Good campfire conversation. There are those that do use antiseize and reduce torque and others will jump down your throat. Thanks for the back up.

[@edwardcarberry1095]

I had an aluminum wheel rim not wanting to come off. I beat it many times with the 8 lber . to no avail. So then lowering the axle down which then broke the chemical bond between them and allowed me to install the winter tires. Yes they were on rims. Yes I have used Kopper Kote and torqued them to 75% in 35,000 km of driving had not much noticeable reduction of applied force.

[@peglor]

An excellent technique for loosening tight wheel nuts especially if all you have is the factory wrench, but it can be applied to whatever wrench you use, is to position the wrench at around knee height and use your knee (Cushioned by your hand), driven by the calf muscle (Which on most people will quite happily lift more than their weight) to push the wrench upwards to loosen the nuts. This has the benefits of removing your back from the load path, allowing much better control of the force being applied and most importantly it means you and the wrench are a lot less likely to go flying if the wrench comes off the nut or anything breaks.

[@amundsen575]

great video, I try to explain to friends that thier uber super duper torque wrench is not any better than my inexpensive torque wrench due to the fact that there are too many variables to get an accurate clamping force , yes the led's and buzzers make it nicer to use. keep fasteners, threaded holes, and mating surfaces clean to help keep clamping force equal.

[@SSS_HEX]

Small tip for stuck wheels on flanges: screw all bolts/nuts on their treads by hand, lower the car from the jack, balance the car a few times and you should see the stubborn wheel wobbling under the car's weight. If this doesn't work just drive a few meters at idle speed with the wheel lose.

[@Tod-yi7jv]

No

[@1gerard47]

Never especially if the tyre is flat

[@asokakarunaratne969]

Thank you, John, for your exceptionally insightful KZbin video. Your solution addressed a lifelong challenge for me, and after acquiring a torque wrench and conducting tests, I am thoroughly impressed. I place great trust in your engineering expertise. Could you please consider creating a segment on upper cylinder lubricants? Sincerely, Karunaratne (Karu)

[@Hotdogger808]

Great video John, most informative as always, love your work..duuuuuuuude!

[@joshuabriggs7114]

Brilliant!

[@johannesschaller5510]

A very worthwhile video thanks JC. There's an interesting variation on some vehicles, such as the 200 series Land Cruiser, where the wheel nuts have captive washers fitted to them. I assume that the washer is included to reduce steel to alloy friction and perhaps also wear of the wheel. At first I was unsure how to deal with the intermediate friction surface, but have settled on cleaning and lightly oiling the nut-washer interface.

[@DerekEmerson]

I recently had my car in the garage and have had major issues with the work they did. However, with regards to the wheel nuts that they tightened as part of the work, of the 10 wheel nuts on the front 2 alloy wheels, bearing in mind the manufacturer recommends 100nm +/- 10. 8 were tightened to between 280-300nm, the remaining 2 were OVER 348nm, the digital torque wrench wouldn’t go higher than this and I still had to add a scaffold bar to a metre long power bar to get them off.

[@JohnShields-df8od]

I had a similar experience with my wheel studs. I no longer allow that mechanic to touch or even glance at my car!

[@dylanwebb9584]

The science of the helical tread. Brilliant

[@petewatson9866]

Hi John, I have to say you didn’t mention that you should undo the bolts before you jack up your car, also instead of the hammer just stand on top of the breaker bar jump slightly, cracks any seized bolts, and the miss bouncing on the bar at the side of the road would cause a massive tail back 😂

[@jackfromthe60s]

Very slightly loosen the bolts. Not "undo"

[@1BigBen]

as kid and teen it was gm wheel wrench, the one made to be use the change the tube in tire, get the nuts close to wheels and move to star pattern with one foot and both foots last 1 or 2 round until you hear that nice sound, late years same process, but shorter wheel wrench, one foot all the way due to more kg on the foot. but I'm getting to that age where the "right tools" don't feel like they cost too much and they help speed up the job also.

[@SteveMuir]

Funny you mention Force breaker bars. Just this morning ordered one 3/4 drive and a big arse socket to disassemble the rear hub on my motorcycle. They were the cheapest place to get the 48 mm socket and breaker bar. Glad you recommend them. On wheel nuts, last time we took the back wheel that had a slow leak of my wife's Astra I had a 5 foot length of pipe on the breaker bar. We would have been no chance on the side of the road with the tools in the car.

[@kadmow]

Factory "wheel spanners" have been known to banana bend on the roadside - when used in anger...

[@alanrichards4947]

I've always had a problem undoing the wheel nuts that had been done up by the tyre fitter/mechanic using a rattle gun. I now carry in my car a metre-long piece of steel tubing that slips over the handle of the wheel spanner thus increasing the leverage to overcome excess tightness.

[@rustyold55]

Hi John. Very informative mate. I do like the way you weave a little political correctness into the very sensitive subject of correctly dealing with your nuts. CEE is a favourite of mine. What a great dude. Kurtis is a welding guru. I always thought a bulldozer blade was just one big piece of steel. How wrong was I. Oh by the way the 2022 diesel Sportage is serving us well. Your review was the clincher. Russell.

[@mapp0v0]

Had to weld nuts onto my BMW locking wheel studs ( I broke the weld a number of times). Used a 1.7m cheater bar. Ended up with a permanently bent breaker bar.

[@shanerorko8076]

So I haven't watched the video yet, I'm a mechanic of 17 years experience. I have heard all the things to do and not do, like if you lubricate a wheel bolt it throws the torque reading out. I have a Snap-on torque wrench an auto click style torque bar so no spring. I do wheels up with my rattle gun, the reason is I know what I'm doing and can check my torque at any time with industry leading tools. Would I recommend a DIY guy do what I do, hell no, I do it because of my experience. But let's look at the VW wheel bolts, they say don't lubricate them, well what do you do if you have a Amarok that has been on the beach many times? The rust on the bolts will throw the reading off more than a little grease.

[@michaelcalder9089]

I do the same 100%. Some tyrefitters with rattleguns don't give a rats about correct torque, or plan to avoid sratching or gouging the rims.

[@DOC19581]

My own personal experience of incorrectly tightened wheel nuts could have killed me and my wife. In 1984 (where has my life gone?), I had a Range Rover in Denmark WA. Had it serviced in Albany, and picked it up to drive to Perth. Half way to Mount Barker, the steering suddenly felt wobbly. Pulled up, and found 3 out of 5 nuts on the front left wheel were missing, and the remaining 2 were unwound several threads. Early Rangies handled like a boat, so didn't really notice the deterioration until it was terminal. Pinched a nut off 2 other wheels, tightened everything up and kept on driving. Wheel and studs were ruined, but we lived. Wasn't particularly happy with the service crew at Manley Stanwell in Albany that day.

[@trevorreeves5041]

John you've certainly got your nuts sorted.

[@chrissmith2114]

I used to copper grease the threads when cars had open nuts where water used to get in and rust, but now cars have 'acorn nuts' with a closed end it is OK for a dry thread. One 1/2 UNF or M12 x 1.5mm wheel stud will lift the whole vehicle.

[@kadmow]

Another distinction: lightly oiled, or light oil applied. (ie. ?? The weight vs the amount before securing) Torque wrenches are quite accurate, the clamping force- highly variable, inevitably based on initial conditions. Lol. Getting a load of workshop hammers direct from Thor, the 2 Piece heads with capscrews and nuts are the real deal (saves a bomb).. - Lets not descend to trading semantics, all too nerdy to turn down.. (A well adjusted torque wrench, so satisfying .) Only final tighten - or loosen with all paws on the ground.

[@AutoExpertJC]

Both, in the context of the oil on bolts, ex-factory. Agreed that the wrenches themselves are 'accurate' if you actually mean 'repeatable'. Accuracy would depend on calibration. Friction is the big variable affecting stretch/clamping. (Also operator consistency - mainly grip position and speed.)

[@ChiefDLK]

CEE is a great channel. I have watch most of his videos.

[@LTVoyager]

I have found the tools that come with my cars are adequate IF the nuts are correctly torqued. I’ve only ever had problems when I forgot to loosen and properly torque the nuts after a garage monkey has installed them with an impact wrench. Sadly, it is almost impossible to find a state inspection station that will properly torque lug nuts even after I specifically request that. So, I drive home and loosen and retorque the nuts after every mandatory state inspection at the local zoo.

[@danold6443]

My tyre shop does use a torque wrench when doing up the nuts......after the rattle gun! I guess the rattle gun is set low (electric) or they are just making sure that the torque is over the minimum? I haven't bothered with checking...wheels are still on! I do do the lube thing when I rotate wheels, but with a little plain old grease just to avoid corrosion as coppercote is way too dear! My car does see some salt water at boat ramps. Breaker bar is the go for tightening and loosening. Been doing it this way for 35 years with no problems so far! I'll probably start using a torque wrench after watching this vid, thanks John for the small details involved. Unbrako is the one I look to for bolt stuff, even though they have sold out to a pommy mob and their quality has dropped a little.

[@sidnzrael2433]

My Wife watched this Vid John, & now confident more than ever to suss me nuts...Brilliant.

[@machinewrangler4682]

Some years back I had a conversation with the local tire fitter about lubrication of wheel studs and adjusting the torque to suit. The strange look on his face said it all and he had been fitting tires for many years so I just played dumb and got out a there quick.

[@GW1957-SY]

My trusty Thor is priceless great vid !

[@0Meaty]

I just put a bloody great breaker bar with a you-beaut wheel socket in the boot. Saves getting copper grease all over my hands.

[@millipedic]

Outstanding !

[@kymsomerville9024]

When I bought my Porsche 944 i had my 1st education on wheel nuts as they are alloy. Very light nuts, that you have a respect for as you know you don't need swing on a long bar to tighten them.

[@marklittle3551]

Last tyre service I used to my surprise and education used a torque wrench before taking them off and again to put them on. Apparently the Ford I have can be easily overtorqued which will break the studs. They checked the torque before taking them off just incase they had been overtorqued the time before so they could alay the blame to the previous operator that had.

[@BlackhawkPilot]

Very good explination. I did not know about the the 0.7 factor… never too old to learn. Have use the anti-seize and a torque wrench for over 60 years. Brass hammer, left over from knock-off wheels?

[@AutoExpertJC]

It's a 'machinist' thing. (The hammer.)

[@ThebackyardmanDan]

Just my 2 cents, great and informative podcast, I did notice your brass hammer was a tad on the mushroomed side , one thing I was drummed into at tafe was the dangers of mushrooming hammers cold chisels etc , I’m sure you know reasons , and I only had a quick casual glance at your hammer , but may be getting close to a dance with a grinder , well maybe, hard to tell , have a great day, regards Dan

[@ThebackyardmanDan]

Hope I don’t incur the wrath of the ghetto engineers

[@ThebackyardmanDan]

I did a KZbin search and surprised to find very little on hammer maintenance, I do add that mushroomed steel would be more dangerous than brass or copper, but I’d probably address them similarly

[@peterg1448]

the last wheel i had to change on the side of a road was not from my car there was a woman with 2 small kids on the side of the road jack setup turned out that her husband could not get the wheel nuts undone with the supplied tools and went to walk to the tyre joint about 5km away didn't take me too long to change the wheel for her just had to stand on the wrench to get it to move after i chocked the wheels as of course the tyre had to go on a hill. as for torque wrenches i keep one in each of my vehicles the older deflecting beam type that can be left preset to the torque required for the wheel nuts

[@SeersantLoom]

I've "calibrated" my wheel spanner/wrench, meaning, standing on it gives ~300Nm torque. Resorting to such means is not a good sign. Rattleguns go over 100Nm easy, even my teeny-little impact screwdriver can do it if the specs are true, it certainly can do undesired things to M8 and M10 bolts.

[@richardtite8469]

Well said. However torque settings and nut loosen due to vibration, is a bit of a science, and the reduction in torque when lubricated ( which is correct) doesn't always take into account the ability of the nut to remain tightened. Normally in engineering a secondary locking system is used. It would be interesting to do a vibration test on wheel nuts, out of curiousity.

[@tobus71]

Hi John, I really enjoy this kind of content , all of the content really. My question is, If there is a specific torque value for a nut should you , as in ,is there, any need or benefit to use something like Loctite? Does the torque value negate the need for its use? Thankyou kindly.

[@stusue9733]

I tend not to lube wheel nuts(except on my farm trucks). It's not me I'm worried about but what do you recon the missus chances are of getting the dealer to drop the torque spec 30% when it goes in for a service?

[@bluddyrowdy8757]

But if you do Not lube-them, and then wait 4 years prior to needing to remove = uh-oh..... P.S. forget the torque wrench, F-tight is that answer

[@stusue9733]

@@bluddyrowdy8757 All four wheels come off every service. A torque wrench is the answer. How do you guess 30% less than f-tight?

[@bluddyrowdy8757]

@@stusue9733 i do my OWN Servicing, i own a rattle gun and also a 1 metre breaker-bar, which lives in the car with a trolley jack, and a plank of wood.. Oil from the dip-stick provides lube in a hurry - tho i use nickel antiseize at home

[@stusue9733]

@@bluddyrowdy8757 Would you like some applause? If we are going to start going for distance, I have 6 trolley jacks and three rattle guns, does that mean I win? Given you do your OWN servicing, the issue I raised isn't an issue for you(in the same way it isn't an issue for me on my farm trucks as mentioned).

[@bluddyrowdy8757]

@@stusue9733 Jeez you have a bad attitude today. I was NOT trying to be a smart-ass, i was merely showing some tools to utilise. Good onya Yes you win ( what i don know ) give yerself a pat-on-the-back Champ....

[@petehalasz7547]

As always a fantastic video with humor.. being licensed technician for over 46 years, I've seen it all. I was yelling at a license tech, because he just continued on the rattle gun 20:41 forever.. as mentioned you will mushroom/ open up the contact surface to the point where the nut is almost passing through.. absolutely sick idiots out there.. I now teach, and simply state,, clean, lube, torque accordingly.. never, never over torque, especially when lubed.. no offense not a fan of antisieze on wheel studs, i agree they will never rust or bind. I use anti seize on everything else. Can't remember if you mentioned, but you must be careful of aftermarket rims, especially if larger rims and rubber and if you're adding power, also need to calculate or really do your research on the rims.cheers

[@lucindafergusonart]

Duddette here , I have big eff off bar for untightening and tightening, but i am aware of my own power

[@paulputnam2305]

Awesomeness Extreme

[@loc4725]

I'm just a bit concerned that if I apply anti-seize lubricant that any future tyre change place or indeed mechanic might tighten them up to the published spec's instead of discounting 30% of the torque.

[@rodneywilliams4024]

Worked as an Aircraft mechanic for 40 + years in general av , a constant on almost every tool trolley was a can of copper cote or lubriplate. Another product was called Mouse Milk penetrant oil. Back in the day it must have been a bitch to get the bucket full. 😂

[@thewholls7176]

Hmmmmmm In over 30 years of driving, I cannot recall the last time I’ve had to change a tyre on the side of the road or in a carpark due to a flat And that’s because 9.9 times out of 10 A flat tire is due to a slow leak - especially in a CBD setting you’ve run over a nail or a screw or something and it can be a reinflated with a 12 V air compressor and it will stay okay for several days ……. No need to touch the wheel brace……. And As of a few weeks ago I discovered this new product or at least it was new to me called tyre repair rubber screws. You simply take the nail out and screw in a silicon coated grub screw and it seals the leak without having to touch a wheel nut…. Check em out…..!

[@jackfromthe60s]

My son recently ran over a 10mm bolt. The tyre deflated very quickly.

[@thewholls7176]

@@jackfromthe60s Yes - depending on the circumstances a quick leak will take five minutes to leak down and you might only have to travel 2 km down the road to the next tyre centre But failing that check out the rubberised tire screw repair kit if you had one of those for the want of 10 bucks a side of the road repair by simply screwing in the screw with a Phillips head screwdriver could last weeks

[@bluddyrowdy8757]

@ wholls WTF, there is NO 'service-center' on the way to dingo-p creek ? Try in the dark, in the rain, in a hurry, and the surface is soft so the jack just sinks w/out raising the vehicle... Never Again !

[@thewholls7176]

@@bluddyrowdy8757 Agreed…….. There’s always the odd impossible circumstance But on average it’s a straightforward thing that only needs a 12 V compressor …..

[@bluddyrowdy8757]

@@thewholls7176 Yes mate agreed, the average SHOULD be easy , and thats exactly how we wish it. Great for inner-city life.....

[@ybliga]

This is all very interesting but doesn't touch on one potentially more significant issue . . . . DOOD!! I'm surprised that John didn't discuss the practice of lubing the entire contact face between the wheel and the hub in order to prevent corrosion . . . I have always done it myself until I recently found out that it effectively changes the interface/joint from one of loading the bolts in tension to loading them in shear. Indeed, some high performance cars actually integrate a friction plate between the two surfaces and I have heard of some well lubed-up wheels in high performance cars shearing off and overtaking their surprised drivers. Be warned, by all means lube the little collar in the middle but not the main flat contact face between the wheel and hub . . this should definitely remain dry in order for the joint not to be compromised . . . or so I'm told . . . dood!!!

[@davidbarnsley8486]

I know I want some new ones for my Ute and was hoping to get some of those spiky pointy ones

[@kingduckford]

I've always been in the habit of dressing up wheel studs with a welder brush and diesel fuel to clean them up. I've always used a torque wrench and never had problems, so is it safe to assume that the diesel is to be considered "light lubrication" and "dry" torque specs are still correct, as you mention factory studs come with light lubrication?

[@biglap.australia]

Nice one John. very interesting information. So when I see caravan that had a wheel flying off due to the studs all breaking off is mostly likely due to over tightening the nuts?

[@AutoExpertJC]

Could be anything - seized bearing could shear off the stub axle. Studs could be poor quality. Could be over-cranked. Nuts could have all come loose, too. Corrosion could be a factor. Lots of different reasons.

[@biglap.australia]

@@AutoExpertJC Yes, true. thank you.

[@Aussiblue]

What about the warning that others give about not using so much anti-seize that you accidentally fill the head of the domed nuts used on the mag wheels etc with so much anti-seize that it cannot be compressed and the nut cannot be fully tighted. Also for those aged and arthritic ( at 71 I am getting close) hitting something with a dead blow hammer or levering on a wrench can be very painful and sometimes somewhat fruitless. As we have discussed before, I think Torque multipliers lug nut tools are a better option worth also considering and no, they are not all made of "Chinesium"; professional quality versions exist and are not hard to find. But even the cheaper sub $100 torque multipliers kits that come in plastic blow molded packs designed be stored in the car boot in my experience are fairly robust - we haven't broken one yet.

[@oojimmyflip]

Have always used a tiny tiny smigen of copper slip or something called ceratec which is a lube for brake pads here in the UK and slightly thicker in consistancy than copper grease. have never lost a wheel or had loosened wheel nuts ,even on a Citroen 2CV which only has three on each wheel, the beveled nut heads against alloy wheels tend to corrode and stick to the alloy wheel holes if you dont lube them slightly it also stops the alloy wheel holes from pitting and griping the steel nuts so much that they simply wont let go. Ive never understood why in some peoples cases they have to call the breakdown truck because they cant get their wheels off their car, garages that use air drills to tighten the wheel nuts/ bolts overtighten them and sometimes fail to use a torque wrench properly. If Im doing a lot of mileage Ill check mine once a week, less milage once a month. Tyre fitting centres always say on the documentation to return in one week to have the wheel nuts/bolts re-torqued althougth I suspect many Drivers do not. I check em as soon as I get home and then a week later its worth it if you want to change a wheel at the roadside and get the wheel off easily. It beats the heck out of using a torch you havent got to heat the nuts/bolts up to make them expand enough to loosen them off which can damage your alloy wheels. I once preffered steel wheels on my cars but having bought a low mileage used diesel in 2019 it came with rather silly oversized alloy wheels 19 inch wheels, so im learning to live with them and the incredible cost of tyres for them, although they do seem to be lasting a long time.

[@pb128]

I'll be the philistine. I small dab of gp grease, a normal 4 spoke wheel brace and torque until 'sensibly tight'. Not scientific, but never had one loosen or sieze - and given the same wheel brace travels with the car, the (thankfully) few and far between roadside removals have always gone smoothly.

[@BlackBuzzzard]

New tire shop always reads me the "riot act" and publicly humiliates me at the checkout counter, when they see antiseize on the hub face.....we live in winter salt belt and aluminum-steel faces tend to stick together with time hence the anti seize.

[@Baerchenization]

I had been mistakenly driving with 130 Nm instead of 160 Nm for 2-3 years, and nothing every came loose, autobahning, Alpine roads and all that.

[@murrieteacher]

ON some cars there is a sleeve that goes over the wheel nut to make the wheel nut more attractive. People should be made a ware of this and how to remove the sleeve before attacking the wheel nut. I do not admit to finding out about these bloody sleeves through experience and the damaged sleeve on my car is a mystery.

[@davidwild66]

I dream of having a car in which it's possible to recognise individual squeaks and rattles. Mine is more like a post-punk symphony.

[@KRAMITDFROG]

Could you please tell tire shops to do this? The last two times I've either had to change a tire or do a rotation, they had criminally overtorqued the nuts. I'm not a small or weak guy, but the one tire I had to change, I couldn't. I was easily pulling with well over 200 pounds of force (or putting 225 lbs of body weight) to no avail. I was in the middle of the Everglades at 2 AM and ended up having to wait for a road ranger, who also couldn't do it. I ended up using a six-foot long extension he had to get the nuts off. When I last rotated my tires, I had a similar situation. I had to use my arms, back, and legs to apply enough force to loosen them. They only need about 80 lbs-ft for any car I've ever had. That I can loosen with one arm as evidenced by when I torqued the nuts after said rotation and wanted to see the difference.

[@peterwooldridge7285]

Nice one

[@cheesesandwich1236]

Removing lug nuts after a winter of driving on salty roads with studs that have not been lubricated sounds like a nightmare.

[@FuManchu5ltr]

Would thread lock count as a lubricant when using it? Service guide might say, apply thread lock and tighten to 160Nm. I’m going to do that because it’s specified. However if it’s not specified I use it but experience with this fixing says I should, would the fluid thread lock lubricate the fixings and therefore I should tighten at roughly (*after I do my own maths) 30%.

[@AutoExpertJC]

Thread locker is a lubricant, but the mounting face is usually dry, so it's not lubricating the whole thing.

[@FuManchu5ltr]

@@AutoExpertJC … and therefore going back to the point about torque settings relative to new lightly oiled fixings, the thread locker would be assumed similar in nature and not change the specified torque in a meaningful way? I don’t like to assume, however I’m going to assume. I have unlocked some new knowledge today. I really like these technical videos you do from time to time. The rivnut video was good too. I use them a lot however now understand them and their limitations far better. I say “videos” but to use a more politically correct term, I should say, “digital visual content”.

[@leealtmansr.3811]

Another great video. Thanks for the information 👍.

[@peteo7342]

I asked a mechanic how tight to do my wheel nuts - with a straight face, he said, " Strip the thread, then back 'em off 1/4 turn."

[@AutoExpertJC]

Old joke.

[@peteo7342]

@@AutoExpertJC Joke ? ? So I've been doing wrong all these years ? Oh deary me !

[@petesmitt]

@@peteo7342 a very old joke; I heard it as an apprentice mechanic in the 70's..

[@AutoExpertJC]

You could also try: until your elbow clicks.

[@phillipcave1197]

John, are those little aligning spacer rings really needed to centralise alloy wheels ? I thought the wheel nuts taper is what locates the wheel.

[@prizecowproductions]

30 years brass hammer, excuse my sceptical nature. Aussie Jeff Moore

[@Ozcrazy49]

No need for a torque wrench mate. Mechanic's Golden Rule - tighten until the thread strips, then back off 1/2 a turn. 😀

[@AutoExpertJC]

Just crank until your elbow clicks...

[@larrymac8538]

' Kurtis from CUTTING EDGE ENGINEERING, he even has HOLLYWOOD teeth now !' 🤣🤣🤣 OMG that was FUNNY AF John ! 👌👌👌

[@AutoExpertJC]

He does. Total Hollywood smile these days. See what fame does? Let's hope it doesn't go to his head.

[@stephenhowe568]

I thought Kurtis borrowed them from Barry Gibb

[@AutoExpertJC]

He's stayin' alive...