Lithium Sulfur Batteries Are Half the Weight, 40% Cheaper & Coming in 2027 - The Battery Show 2024

The idea of lithium sulfur batteries has been around for a long time, but previous examples could not do enough charging cycles. The breakthrough that materials company Lyten came up with is to use graphene, a carbon material, which improves the durability of lithium sulfur batteries. Celina Mikolajczak, the CTO of the battery division of Lyten, says these cells are half the weight, are 40% cheaper to make and could be out as early as 2027.
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[@danharold3087]

Cool that Celina is developing cells. I loved listening to her talk. She has the vision w/o the hype. We need to explore all the paths to identify the precious few that ill advance BEVs. This technology could reduce the weight of GM's big battery trucks by about 1500 lbs. That goes right back into the payload and towing. That and up to about $10K less money.

[@iakona23]

This is a great interview. I wish this company great success. I think they will make it.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

because of the financial backing with military projects, i have a feeling they will make it. in the military there are applications where cycle life is not that important but the weight is (drones). this is an area where they already have their foot in the door. maybe similar to amprius technology where they bumped up the energy density with a silicon anode where they build a forest of nanoscale sizes "trees" to make room for lithium without the destructive expansion with every charging cycle.

[@iakona23]

@@stefanweilhartner4415very good reply. Thank you.

[@energyparticle]

Sounds like it's a lot further out than 2027

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

because their cell is still in development and the scaling in production is still needed. automotive needs at least 1500 cycles and my guess is that lyten is in the area of 500 cycles - which is enough for many applications. theoretically even for automotive if one cycle gives you 700 real world kilometers. 500*700 = 350000 km

[@ismailnyeyusof3520]

@@stefanweilhartner4415I think if their battery is as cheap as claimed then replacing it with a new one might be feasible.

[@ezbody]

It may also never come out, just like happened to many battery technologies before.

[@MotoGuzziMoto]

Love the straight talk. Yes there are hurdles and Celina talked right to them. These new batteries still sound like they have a lot of potential.

[@fastigone5967]

Are you going to interview Zeta Energy as well? (Booth 6030) They also seem to be further along then Lyten in their Sulfur battery, but an interview could verify it 🤔. Thanks

[@gmv0553]

Just remember, this is only the beginning of the battery technology advancements! The future looks great for electric power!

[@N82SV]

Great interview. So exciting to see batteries evolving. Thanks.

[@jjamespacbell]

Should be here at about the same time as solid-state batteries, and fusion power.

[@larryc1616]

Commercial Solid state in cars ETA 2-3 years away from CATL, BYD or Panasonic. Fusion 20 to 50 years.

[@snookmeister55]

Since we're making predictions, Hades will freeze over before fusion is practical, and you won't live long enough to see solid state in auto production.

[@tanalson]

I don't think fusion will be feasible within my lifetime. Maybe a few more generations down

[@r3nd3rm4n]

I'm imagining a future with Battery management systems that know how to manage multiple chemistries, in the same pack, strategically.

[@rkan2]

You could just have two packs. Tesla could already integrate and fit plenty. But with the performance delta NMC and LFP has it probably doesn't make much sense. For a track focused car some capacitor bank solution could make sense. Imagine being able to regen every corner in Nurburgring and not overheat the main pack.

[@sebsta7990]

So she states that the cell is half the weight of a traditional cell, but does it have the same energy? Unfortunately no proper information about the gravimetrical energy density.

[@EnzroGreenidge]

that was the first question that came to my mind. Energy density...

[@battousaihimura]

They are claiming LiS > 450Wh/kg Vs 250 Wh/kg for NMC at cell level

[@bobwallace9753]

@@battousaihimura >450 Wh/kg is a battery that allows long distance battery powered flight. Let's see if they can achieve decent cycle life along with good charge/discharge characteristics.

[@irokpe6977]

At 1:07 if you pause the video you'll see a sample shown on the left. On the product shown the weight is 1.25kg and the capacity is 120WH that gives about 96WH per KG.

[@battousaihimura]

​@@irokpe6977that one is the LFP cell on display, not LiS

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

at the beginning you can sell it at a premium to porsche and ferrari to shape off some weight and still add a bit of range. that can refinance some of the investments a bit earlier or help to scale up faster. and the short range aviation industry pays well also. especially the military sector that is already one important cornerstone in your business. as you said, we live in exciting times. great stuff! it will make EVs so cheap. and it will make trucks like the F150 affordable and add quite some range. especially with heavy truck like that, it is difficult to compete with the old ICE versions when the application requires a long range. 20% more range and 20% less weight for the same price would be great already.

[@williamcrossan9333]

This sounds too good to be true. A Model 3 with batteries weighing even 20% less would be a game changer.

[@jamesroy791]

The problem with Lithium ion replacements is energy density sodium and sulfur batterys sound good but you couldn't get a 2 3 4 hundred mile range

[@Burroughsbikebuilds]

“Celina, thanks for your time” “Shiiiittttt, yeah…”

[@dogphlap6749]

A nice story, perhaps it will work out but even Celina said they are still working on cycle life so this chemistry is far from a done deal at the moment.

[@urbanstrencan]

Really interesting new battery chemistry

[@bobwallace9753]

Hope this pans out. But actually producing a better battery is often tried with many failures. The great thing is we now have batteries that are good enough. We're just looking for better and better is better.

[@nunyabidness3075]

Is this anything like other industries where the price in the pre market phase is one third the price in the delivery phase while the performance is also less than described?

[@xicofaria]

Density & Safety means the most

[@joebullwinkle5099]

What’s the power density/kg?

[@Ridingforsanity]

If the form factor lives up to the hype. I see this as a perfect application to e-bikes and small mobility products. Even electric motorcycles have been held back by battery weight, range, and cost.

[@giovannip.1433]

If you want to reduce the cost further wouldn't you consider Sodium Sulphur?

[@Wiseguy3hh]

Looks promising but definitely curious about the cycle life.

[@Emphasis213]

Reminds me of quantum scape. Hype it to the moon to get investments then reality hits and product is not mature and not ready for mass market.

[@charlesrovira5707]

I hope that they can go up to 4880 cells. Half the weight and 40% savings sounds very, very appealing. *Tesla Semi, CyberTruck,* and the upcoming *CyberCab* could use the new chemistry. They stand a real chance if they are capable of the number of cycles.

[@MaticTheProto]

The only thing the ct needs is a scrapyard

[@w8stral]

Just that "slight" problem they have immolated over 100 people in China. Until they can DEMONSTRATE these cells will not EXPLOSIVELY immolate all occupants of a vehicle, this is a NON STARTER

[@bobqzzi]

Don't buy cars from Nazis

[@danburkland]

@@MaticTheProto it’s always funny spotting snowflakes like you in the comment sections who are triggered by the Cybertruck 😂

[@MaticTheProto]

@@danburkland How am I a snowflake? Just because you have your head so far up your ass you somehow missed the gazillion reports about the CTs unreliability. Grow up

[@MadisonClavet-r5l]

Thanks for the analysis! Just a quick off-topic question: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?

[@charlesrovira5707]

Thanks. I was wondering what they'd been up to? It takes deep pockets to do the necessary research.

[@RPRosen-ki2fk]

I enjoyed listening to this woman, GREAT interview. Still have lots of questions though. Are they to be made as a solid state format? Are they NON FLAMMABLE? What are their C rating, can they pump out & take in at HIGH rates? Looking forward to this tech and wish Lyten much success.

[@PerErikKarlsson]

Sounds like a good fit for drones

[@ronblack7870]

so what is stopping CATL from making these as well?

[@MaticTheProto]

Yet another promising cell chemistry

[@1225KPH]

Just put it in the fireproof trash bin over there, next to all the other failed battery chemistries that were going to make EVs viable over the last 25 years.

[@MaticTheProto]

@@1225KPH they already are viable and evs burn far less often than ice cars

[@1225KPH]

@@MaticTheProto It's not how often they burn, it's how big and unextinguishable they burn. Are you enjoying wallowing in ignorance? No ICE car fire ever sank an auto transport ship. or took out tyhe entire parking structure of a South Korean apartment building displacing 100 families. No semi tractor truck closed the I80 freeway in California for 16 freakin' hours while it burned. A Tesla Semi did. And, they had to use aerial drops of fire retardant from a helicopter. EV owners and eco-weenies are the stupidest people on the planet.

[@ScottOstr]

Sounds perfect for the Aptera 🔋

[@junehanzawa5165]

Lithium-Sulfur is absolutely the future of batteries along with Solid State batteries. Sulfur can hold as much as 5 times more Lithium Ions that the best current chemistries using Nickel and Cobalt with 1/3 the weight. So a current 300 miles of range becomes as much as 1,500 miles. But even half that beats all current ICE ranges (so why on earth did he bring up hybrids with twice the parts to go wrong? Isn't 1,500 miles enough? Good of her to shut him down). And of course, the cost of Nickel and Cobalt is gone from the picture. So of course, Lyten is far from the only company working on them.

[@bobwallace9753]

So many people don't understand how much range they really need. With rapid charging becoming very accessible hardly anyone needs more range than what they can drive between meals.

[@junehanzawa5165]

@@bobwallace9753 Correct. But the extra range is definitely needed when towing. And this shut up all those naysayers with the unprecedented ranges these will provide. Not only for the EV's, but also the extra storage capabilities on the battery megapacks at charging sites with solar which are springing up all over right now. They collect all the solar when EV's aren't charging on it.

[@bobwallace9753]

@@junehanzawa5165 True. Some people need more range because they tow. But how many people tow something a long distance more than once every few years? How many people ever tow at all? If you tow but very seldom, rent something for that once every couple of years stuff. Right tool for the right job.

[@junehanzawa5165]

@@bobwallace9753 Regardless of your point being correct, if we want people to abandon ICE, the more range the better. Which is why EVERY company and battery maker in working on improving range and energy density. New technology only replaces old technology if it's better, not the same. So EV's have to beat ICE in range. And they will. By far.

[@bobwallace9753]

@@junehanzawa5165 I understand your point. But ask yourself why people think they need as much or more range than they have with their ICEV. The general public is very undereducated about EVs. There is hard work being done to increase energy density. That's important because, assuming cost/kWh is about the same, a lighter battery has multiple advantages. But what is most likely to get people into EVs is lower sales prices. And a lower range EV is going to be a less expensive EV. If we had a good quality 250 mile range EV that sold for $25k which would be less than $20k after the federal subsidy, it would blow the market wide open. That would be a car that would pay for itself over its lifetime via fuel and maintenance savings. So you've got only a 250 mile range. Start your 500 mile drive day which you do twice a year with the full 250 and drive down to 10%. That's 225 miles. Stop for less than a half hour and charge to 80%. Drive down to 10% which would be 175 miles. That's 400 miles. One more short stop and you've driven 500 miles with a modest range EV. How many thousands of dollars would you be willing to spend to make that a one stop day rather than a two stop day? (A meal and a pee.)

[@tanalson]

I am looking forward to her product being mass produce. Ahe knows what customers want. High energy density, lightweight and affordable. If you're able to nail all these 3 points, your product is flying off the shelves

[@12345682900]

Sounds great!

[@tommihelich2613]

I like this video the best so far. Celina sounded very approachable and realistic. Still, everyone still refers to things coming “ in a few years”.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

What would you say instead?

[@iceman9678]

My experience with "exotic" chemistry batteries is they have a very narrow efficiency temperature band.

[@garytulie8567]

Sounds ideal for drones - a modest market likely to pay a premium for increased flight time.

[@RHODEZ]

What is the weight savings vs current Tesla cells?

[@pafsrh4744]

theres an australian company who have been producing graphene in bulk cheaper than what it used to cost in the past, they have produced graphene batteries that can full charge about 5 mins compared to hours, and they are more energy dense than lithium, last longer, dont heatup like lithium, have a longer charge life than lithium, they have already sent samples to major battery companies around the world, not sure why there is very little info on this company

[@frankcoffey]

So where does sulfur come from? Are there industrial processes where sulfur is a byproduct or waste material? Those sources could be a factor in the supply chain part of this.

[@w8stral]

The world is drowning in sulfur. The problem is that Li-S is a near explosive and was VERY briefly introduced in China where hundreds of people were killed by their buses' and cars catching on fire. Until they demonstrate this battery type will not explode into a giant fireball, and let ANYONE handle them trying to get them to burn, this is a non starter. Yea yea, they were talking cycle life, but that is NOT the problem.

[@ulwur]

Sulfur in form of sulfuric acid is one of the major feed stocks of the chemical industry, we make loads of it! Its extracted from fossil natural gas, so thats not great .

[@stickynorth]

Let a hundred batteries charge!

[@tonep3168]

And we will never be able to buy a product that contains one.

[@danharold3087]

Most likely not. A reasonable guess is that globally there are 100s of new technologies and variants being worked on by a somewhat smaller number of labs. That says we have a lot of research to do and a lot of room for improvement. In the event that this groups fails others may utilize some of its technology in their work. It is not unlike the path that lead to the airplane.

[@bobwallace9753]

Humans will never fly. Cars will never replace horses. People will not want personal computers.

[@ronfarnsworth7074]

How do you know?

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

well, for now you are not the buyer of military equipment that has samples of them in there already.

[@toddw3nzel639]

@@ronfarnsworth7074from a consumer level it’s all about cost and durability. There are lots of new exciting chemistries that have potential, but take a significant amount of time to study and then to scale.

[@kevtheobald]

At least she is not saying they will ready next month. Still sounds like some aggressive timeliness for reaching market. CATL, BYD, and others are rapidly expanding. Would love e to see another strong competitor in the battery space. The more competition, the better it is for the consumer.

[@FlintStone-c3s]

I was falling asleep until she said half the weight.

[@dabrain22video]

has to scale and get to production its hard for small companies to scale up and everything is always delayed we will see in 2027.

[@Tore_Lund]

40% cheaper, that's $60 per kWh production costwise?

[@eastvalleycomputer]

With smaller lithium cells like the model S the voltage drop is less across the larger amount of cells. The cells last longer. The larger the cell the lesser amount of cells in the cell pack and the greater the drop in voltage as they discharge and a shorter life span of the battery. We still do not see any new battery tech in production for cars. It may be 50 years before energy density of batteries is closer to kerosine or Jet fuel. Jet fuel is 37.54 Kilowatts per gallon. Let that sink in. 37 kilowatts in the size of a shoe box. So 4- shoe box batteries with equivalent power would be over 148 kilowatts or 27 shoe box size batteries just over 1 megawatt. 4 megawatts of power is required to get the Boeing 747 off the ground. 50 years. wait. See what happens. The future is NOT now. I need 4 megawatts in 1 shoe box battery to power my Iron heart. Total Heartbeats: Approximately 3 billion. Total Blood Pumped: Approximately 62 million gallons over a lifetime. Power consumption 4 megawatts. Decentralized energy (no GRID or mini GRIDs)will be common If a small powerful 1-2 megawatt batteries one day will hold massive energy. Science fiction? Nope! We are lazy humans stealing dirty OIL energy from The Carboniferous period. Plants. Plants that used solar energy. Every thing is and always was solar powered including all fossil fuels. Most 80% of the oxygen you breath is still created from a single cell(3.2 billion years old) that is not a plant. Not a Bacteria like Archaeans.

[@rjv2395]

does it beat the potential of aluminum graphene? how about some serious questions. other than weight and cost, what are the benefits. safety? power density? still lithium... seriously ask some questions. sounds like they still dont have the cycles problem worked out.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

i guess they are in the area of 500 cycles. the graphene should prevent the sulphur to leave the cathode. i guess that is not perfect so far and some sulphur gets shuttles in the direction of the anode which destroys the battery a bit every charging cycle.

[@4Lights.5Liights]

Clean up the background audio noise.

[@freddiecarr7602]

Right!

[@streamingdemon2522]

Toyota should add this to their hydrogen fantasy playlist

[@wsi1917]

Information are a bit contradictory to each other. 40% cheaper but could scale up only non-automotive in this decades, does it missing opportunities? Can’t be automotive “cycle” required yet? And not good for hybrid (10-20 years life span expectancy) which means cheap but have to replace regularly = high maintenance cost. Not talking about thermal run away. Claiming is useless but specific testing on its formula is needed. High energy density have potential high chance on fire issue. Most important is very slow scale up plan means a lot of unspoken issue!

[@mike168168]

The bots sure like emojis.

[@by9917]

T-rex arms

[@joebachmeier6747]

All these machines to build cells. Why dont you guys do a simpler version of the process of the average cell.

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

there is no simpler process than adding layer by layer.

[@joebachmeier6747]

@stefanweilhartner4415 Oh yeah. Who makes these machines? Are they innovating? And the only way to make batteries is to pass parts through millions of dollars of furnace and drying equipment. Right.

[@joebachmeier6747]

@@stefanweilhartner4415 Dodge is hiring.

[@iceshark411]

Lithium sulfur has downsides, it has lower voltage potential meaning lot of current ( higher temp) to match ncm or nca chemistries

[@garymenezes6888]

If everything she says is true, Tesla would have heard about it already and would be looking to purchase the IP or licence the tch

[@NickWindham]

If one of these breaches it’ll be a stink bomb instead of a fire.

[@ps3301]

They should make it for normal aa batteries first

[@juanvga]

I hate when they avoid the question

[@NightNurseMike]

How about planes and boats

[@y_x2]

You have to compete against other technology that what they don't talk about.

[@danieloool2044]

To trailers or drons

[@briand5379]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds more like 2030 than 2027, and I'm sure SSB will be out long before then, making LiS batteries somewhat irrelevant.

[@streamingdemon2522]

As soon as she said the cycle life was not good i ended the video... Not gonna be able to get traction and are too far behind the competition

[@stefanweilhartner4415]

not good for EVs. a few decades ago these chemistries had a cycle life of about 50. now they are in the area of 500. automotive wants 1500.

[@Kaisan-vc8fw]

But do they self catalyse and explode like Lithium Iron batteries?

[@bobwallace9753]

Lithium ion batteries do not explode. They can burn.

[@scoobyblu5815]

😅 I don't think so So they already finished😅

[@VAARRR1]

Do it

[@Eduardo_Espinoza]

If you can't get racing EVs to bite on this new technology, than I don't know what to tell you.

[@1225KPH]

Buy ICE.

[@DCGreenZone]

Wait wait, don't tell me, Elon invented them.

[@Mikexception]

Ths batteries will in future make great impression. But complete EVs driven with them will not. I think that "no produced complete EVs driven with best in world batteries " will be better -( they do not weight at all, charging is 100% no problem, people no need to build and use additional hughe energy plants, grid, and build home charging installations , they do not set anything on fire . In emergency evacuation like flooding "no posessed EVs" are equaly as good as aexisting EVs except that "not posessed" in emergency can be left home with no worry). .

[@2cartalkers]

So why didn't Duracell get in on this? 🐇🐰

[@joebachmeier6747]

Why would a disposable battery company make a battery that causes them to buy less? Duracell and Energizer are greatly responsible for how people believe batteries are and will be.

[@2cartalkers]

@@joebachmeier6747 Yes, they do, don't they?

[@joebachmeier6747]

@@2cartalkers no. They don't.

[@2cartalkers]

@@joebachmeier6747 But they could if they if they wanted to?

[@joebachmeier6747]

@2cartalkers likely buy why would you improve it if you get all the sales anyways. Maybe. Maybe they were just too stupid. But they dominated small battery sales for decades. Guess it makes sense. GM crushed all the EV1's. Why?

[@martinbaggott1052]

Lithium needs to be dumped

[@Rhotz-ix8ll]

6:31 Still can't do the cycles. That's why nobody is using sulphur or sodium despite their other advantages.

[@nc3826]

Fyi sodium Is already being used, for automotive applications.

[@fozzybear9114]

Yikes. Dei company. Avoid

[@WalkingHeadPro]

not as good as solid state technology. pass

[@stevem7508]

With a 50 mile range, no thanks

[@bobwallace9753]

How far do you now go on your foot-propelled skateboard?

[@nc3826]

thanks for proving that, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.“

[@robertsaca3512]

He appears to be a charming young fellow, but a word salad that seems never-ending eventually wore me down and I stopped listening.

[@nc3826]

Which is why YT has cat videos.... And thanks for being Consistently.... Wrong on all counts...