The Affordability Crisis & How the Industry is Dealing with It - AAH 685

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Once again, John is head and shoulders above the the rest of the panel in terms of understanding the issue, the current options and where the industry is actually going. Great job John.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

2:13 great job calling that out John. I agree 100%. They took every opportunity to price gouge.

[@lowtech_1]

Money printing (QE) caused the inflation. Before they changed it, the word Inflation, meant expansion of the money supply. Blame everyone else if you want.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

It’s funny how affordability hardly ever comes up whenever it’s a gas pickup that has a brand billboard on the front grill

[@TecnamTwin]

Precisely! Hypocrisy at its finest. Also, look up how much any decently spec'd 3-row family hauler costs nowadays. It's ridiculous!!

[@josephvcenzoprano7528]

Gas buyers are suckers, that’s why.

[@tnickknight]

What the Maverick is affordable and can not be made fast enough

[@taylorc2542]

Truck buyers did it to themselves; they wanted more options.

[@ashisdas4971]

Kudos to Ford for the Maverick Pickup truck that right sized for 80% of the population.

[@elvinthalund5193]

Listening to these guys it clear that the current American ICE car companies are sitting ducks, as they have no answer for an affordable car and the Chines and American EV companies do. No the Tesla model 3 is not $50K it's $35K without any rebates! The model 2 will have to be significantly below that or they won't sell, so $25K within a year of release.

[@alanlight7740]

Jim Hall made a good point at 36:28 - reducing costs won't help affordability if the car companies look at "perceived value", calculate what's the most they can charge for an improved feature even if it reduces their costs, and then refuse to pass on any of the savings. They're going to end up choking on their own greed.

[@250dmitchell]

Agreed. Unfortunately most people haven’t heard this. Or if they have, then they disregard it because Tesla has inexplicably been vilified by ill-informed haters.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

@@alanlight7740Won't anybody think of the starving dealers' children? 😭

[@davidhancock91]

Model 3 is $60,000+ in Australia. They are Just not good value, that said they are selling remarkably well, thanks to Government tax incentives in financing a new EV.

[@elvinthalund5193]

@@davidhancock91 that is +40’000 US$ what else can you get at that price that is better?

[@mikefolkmann1564]

Average age of people on this show...72. Most of these people haven't been in a factory for years. Its funny to watch them squabble about "never gonna happens" when it's actively happening.

[@geraldbutler5484]

They were worse 4 years ago, laughing and talking about fads. Get some younger savvy blokes on.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

John has come over to the rebel side.

[@Mpr47276]

John has accepted the reality but he keeps assembling dinosaur panels that squabble and scrabble about irrelevancies framed from a 1970’s perspective. Total wast of a once decent program.

[@garydmercer]

This constant attack of the elderly, with this idea that we don't know anything and don 't keep current on new tech is ridiculous and ageism. My father designed the cold press forming machines that stamped out parts for GM cars. He would travel to different GM manufacturing plants, design the machines for the new production lines etc. He would be in his mid 80s today and if he were still alive, he would be completely on top of this new tech. The idea that elderly people don't keep current and are no longer relevant is ageism, nothing more. I still stay current with all evolving technology. Getting older doesn't mean we shut off our brains and stop learning and growing. Stop ageism. The elderly are a source of wisdom and knowledge should be respected. Have respect for your elders.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

16:32 the public would absolutely accept a stripped down car. Give me AC and a volume knob and a Bluetooth connection for music and sell it for less money.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

“Infotainment” in a car has been a solution searching for a problem since touchscreen phones came out with Google Maps navigation.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

16:43 nope

[@spankeyfish]

Concepts like that keep appearing e.g. the Citroen Oli, but nothing in production yet...

[@geraldbutler5484]

Striped down for domestic running around. I’m happy with a/c and a radio.

[@davidmarkmann6098]

Correction: Tesla does not use any 16 ton casting machines. The Cybertruck front and back castings are made on 6T and 9T machines respectively. The 16T machine in the news was ordered by a Korean company I believe.

[@205rider8]

John is the only one in this group that is current on EV knowledge. For example adjusted for inflation the RWD Model 3 is now $28,000 in 2018 dollars. Another, battery costs are slated to drop in the range of 50% next year.

[@davedyer3654]

Those three dinosaurs didn't have a clue what they were on about, biased totally

[@davidmannion5362]

@@davedyer3654 it’s interesting to see how late in the game it is for ICE cars, and they still think they will be selling in 2030!

[@scottburton414]

Especially the one loudmouth know-it-all that kept interrupting and talking over the other three. ​@@davedyer3654

[@evfusion4094]

I thought it was recorded 2 years ago - unbelievable ignorance. Agree, John was the only knowledgeable participant.

[@thesolarfutureenthusiast1102]

Who is slating that battery costs will drop 50% next year? Did you mishear someone saying 15%?

[@darinmiller1916]

EV’s with fewer parts and especially less moving parts with friction have the potential to substantially increase the longevity of a standard vehicle. Lower fuel cost and subsequent lower operating costs also are a potential with EVs. And Tesla is a leader on it, not just EV’s in generic.

[@DuarteMolha]

OMFG. Did one of thos guys just says EV will not get to price parity in their lifetime?? How clueless can you be!!

[@dilbertnewton6864]

Well, they are pretty old and out of shape. 🤔

[@frankcoffey]

Exactly that clueless, that's the upper limit of clueless.

[@parkershaw8529]

He might not be wrong, you know.

[@ultrarichie]

the chance is low. darn low. but not zero

[@davidhancock91]

Not really. Were you listening? Better rewind and pay attention.

[@MrTeff999]

Café regulations are heavily influenced by manufacturer lobbying. There’s nothing unintended about them.

[@ShumaBot]

What a strange conversation barely about affordability and constantly re referencing events decades old. That AI discussion was _rough_.

[@andrewboyd5291]

Footprint rules were geared to insulate D3 body-on-frame product sales/profitability.

[@evfusion4094]

EVs now have over 80% of the medium size sedan market in Australia NOW. In that segment they are clearly highly competitive. The problem is in other segments such as pickup and small sedans. By end 2025 small EV sedans (Chinese imports) will dominate their sector also. Affordable EV sedans can be (and are being) built today. However, affordability remains a problem with pickups and large SUVs and legacy manufacturers are unlikely to crack that one soon. It is up to Tesla and the Chinese and how quickly they can build the capacity to take those segments also.

[@TecnamTwin]

It has little to do with being "competitive" and has everything to do with production. What EVs are being produced in what segments? Electric sedans, hatchbacks, crossovers, and SUVs are being produced in fairly large numbers and are as a result selling well. Vehicles like the $11K BYD Seagull are coming to dominate the small car segment, but there are very few electric pickups being produced so Obviously sales are low. Don't confuse the effect with the cause.

[@canlib]

Your 80% number is way off, Acording to the Australian Automobile Assoc, the number is 53% for median sized sedans, in 2023. As it is, all EV's only make up 0.6% of the total amount of vehicles on the road in Australia according to the International Energy Agency in 2024.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

53% is still a huge number. Also, if your 53% is correct, your .06% cannot be correct.

[@evfusion4094]

Yes, @canlib the number was actually higher - it was 85.5% in February 2024. Your number is for last year. "... remarkably, the sub-section of medium passenger cars priced above $60,000 was 85.5 per cent electric in the month of February, led by the the Model 3, the Polestar 2, the BMW i4, and the Hyundai Ioniq 6." Source: The Driven 6 March 2024

[@geraldbutler5484]

@@canlibIn Australia we are getting over a decade of a do nothing government that said they are trying to steal your weekends. Watch the EV expansion in the next 5 years you’ll be amazed. Aussies are great at adopting new technology. We have the highest uptake of roof top solar per capital in the world.

[@darinmiller1916]

The limit to affordability is pretty well known for ICE cars but EVs can bring in a new paradigm.

[@roxter299roxter7]

“Repairability is an issue with gigacastings”. Is it though? Where is the data. Sandy Monro says different.

[@frankcoffey]

If you were fixing a car would you want to have to align dozens of different parts based on the information available or just replace one large part with all points already aligned? And even if you get all those parts of a conventional car aligned perfectly how to do you know they are welded like they were from the factory? How will they do in a second accident?

[@cratecruncher4974]

They don't condemn their potential customers. But I watched as they broke, tore, and ground through rivets and structural adhesive to finally separate the rear casting on a 3. It took them hours and the parts were destroyed getting them separated. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mqrHlmt9bNKjY5Y

[@canlib]

Collision shops currently repair damaged vehicles using smaller sectioned replacement structures that are "cut in" to the existing damaged body and chassis structure along the seams where they are fastened to each other by welds during assembly. Without the seams of the sectioned structures, there is no easy way to replace them if they don't exist, like in the 1, 2, or 3 pieces that are produced in a giga casted assembly. Because the casted part is so large, repairing it is nearly impossible- the mechanic would need to replace the entire casting which would be prohibitively dificult, time consuming, and expensive. Considering the cost that insurance companies would have to absorb to bring the vehicle back to factory condition, the cost of the repair would end up having the vehicle "totaled." The auto manufacturers take that into account in the design and repairability of the vehicles as they work with insurance companies to fix them..

[@frankcoffey]

@@canlib If the damage is bad enough yeah, it’s going to be totaled. Even some gas cars are like that now. Front end damage on a Genesis can total it and almost any wreck will total a Range Rover.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Here's an idea for an upcoming topic: "Affordability"

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

53:10 what are you talking about? Entry-level Model 3 was 35k for a long time and lately it’s been high 30s even after inflation. That’s before tax incentives! The brand new more advanced one starts at 38,990 right now before incentives.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

In recent months some folks even got inventory deals for Model Ys that come out to mid 30s after incentives. Don’t tell me prices didn’t come down. They were much higher.

[@thesolarfutureenthusiast1102]

After taking into account inflation since they said it would be $35k it is cheaper than $35k was back then.

[@markdc1145]

Don't forget these guys are sitting in Detroit, Teslas are practically non-existent there.

[@alunjones2550]

Car companies add unnecessary complexity into vehicles that serves no purpose other than increase the cost to buy and repair, which also then bumps up the cost to insure. Do we really need such complex headlights when a single LED can be far brighter than a halogen bulb? No! So what is the obsession with ridiculous matrix headlights that seem to serve no benefit other than blind oncoming traffic. Same issue goes for rear lights that are too complex and intricate in their design. Why are EV's so powerful? Make them less powerful so the tyres are smaller, they weigh less, they're more economical and consequently cheaper to buy and run. Just make cars simpler. I don't want a car that lights up like pop concert when I unlock it............And while you're at it, get rid of these stupid IMAX screens that you bolt to the dashboard. Bring back switches and dials that are user friendly..

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Your examples don't compute. They are things that are coming down in cost fast and not an issue. Also, every physical button needs to be wired and linked. It is actually more expensive, not less to add a bunch of physical controls. And, matrix headlights are safer for the driver of the car and the driver coming at them.

[@raymondschembri5042]

Which decade you were born. For that matter are you still using a Blackberry phone 😂😂😂

[@alunjones2550]

@@BTC_Minarchist Of course my example computes. They are incredibly expensive to replace and they are not usually repairable, either. It is unnecessary complexity and therefore unnecessary cost. Any idiot knows that the cost of manufacture reduces for any item, the more you make of them so I don't even know why you said that.

[@alunjones2550]

@@raymondschembri5042 I was born in a decade where we were taught to reply to dumb ass trolls that aren't capable of meaningful discourse....

[@BTC_Minarchist]

@@alunjones2550 Everything you said was unnecessary because you don't want it or like it are what make these new cars so compelling. You are entitled to your opinion but it's not what most people want and it's not what adds cost.

[@roadmovies]

The day this was streamed the Tesla Model Y was $35,490 (assuming you can benefit from a $7,500 tax credit) - Base Toyota RAV4 Hybrid was $33,755

[@stephenmcgauley]

You guys need to get some AI experts on here to get your information straight because I am not sure you had all your info correct on how models work and are trained and can be trained.

[@rudderboost4188]

Sadly we had very little on affordability and how the industry would get it down. Seemed to be dominated by partisan attitudes and members kept changing the subject to their flavored view which took the conversation off topic. Very little new information in my opinion.

[@petersilva037]

@16:15 ... The thing communicating environmental complexity when on the phone... accellerometers and wheel turning... that requires zero additional hardware. it's just software. The phone could be told to be in "car mode" a relatively simple protocol exchange over the bluetooth connection, and the phone could then pay attention to it's accellerometers. It could be easily implemented by Google/Android and/or Apple/IOS, and would have zero ongoing cost. It would be a tiny fraction of the less work that went into Carplay and the google one.

[@frankcoffey]

If the battery pack is 40% of the cost of making an EV that means there is huge cost takeout potential. There is no such potential with ICE, all the optimization has been done over the last 100 years and there is no way to make them cheaper. These old dudes can't even see beyond a year or so the very definition of paradigm paralysis. John is not one of them.

[@gmv0553]

You are pathetic!

[@thesolarfutureenthusiast1102]

It isn't 40% That number came from the guy who said ICE average is $47k, EV average is $53k and the difference is $4.5k. He may know some of the numbers but I wouldn't trust him as a source and wouldn't pay him as a consultant 🤣 Battery prices are still on a solid cost decline curve though 👍

[@GraysonA]

0:31: 🚗 Discussion on industry response to car affordability crisis by automotive experts. 5:32: ⚙ Transition to affordable electric powertrains due to regulatory pressures and economies of scale. 9:34: ⏳ Challenges in technological advancement due to lengthy timelines and lack of patience. 14:39: ⚙ Implementing technology to automatically cut phone calls during critical driving moments. 18:56: 🚗 Challenges of making affordable cars and unintended consequences of industry regulations. 24:13: 🚗 Evolution of consumer preferences towards larger vehicles impacting small car market. 28:18: 💡 Challenges with quick shifts in transmissions, software revisions, and addressing physical issues. 33:11: ⚙ Challenges in increasing production capacity and workforce due to aging population. 37:57: ⚙ Challenges in the auto industry are driving the need for innovation and adaptation to maintain margins. 43:06: 💡 Impact of AI on Offshore Engineering Processes in Automotive Industry 48:40: 🛴 Emergence of new class of vehicles for micro mobility in upscale neighborhoods and retirement communities. 53:31: 💰 Challenges in pricing and competition in the automotive industry, particularly in China. 58:33: 🚘 Challenges with implementing advanced headlamp technology in the US compared to Europe

[@davidhancock91]

Thank you. Very interesting discussion gentlemen. I love listening to experts who have many decades of automotive industry experience.

[@bobc5730]

These guys are stuck in a legacy manufacturing mode of thinking. Battery technology will likely be so radically changed in costs capacity and efficiency.

[@nathanroberson]

@10:14 dude is not aware that aircraft are more reliable than the cars they make. He is joking around as if they are unreliable. They beat all other forms of transport in safety.

[@pspublic13]

People who hog the microphone and love to hear themselves talk are always short on knowledge and long on ego. This guy is no different. Thank God John was there to inject at least some sanity in the conversation.

[@canlib]

They're more reliable because they HAVE to be. That's why a plane costs 10 times what a car costs. You think someone's going to pay $400,000 for a brand new daily driver?

[@nathanroberson]

@@canlib then why did he claim planes are not reliable?

[@nathanroberson]

@@canlib you may have miss the sentiment. the guest stated that planes "keep falling from the sky" as if it's an unreliable form of transport. there was not comment about cost.

[@keyserxx]

Thank you Victorian era Gentleman's club. Cigar? I'm the 3rd family member to own an EV and my Dad now says he'd have one next time around. I guess humans have this knee jerk reaction to any change and then follow the echo chamber, it's strange seeing the auto industry wrestle itself over progress.

[@gregkramer5588]

I know a person that had a Smart and now has a Mini! In her case it was more the cute factor than handling I believe. In regards to low cost cars I just think people would rather get a good used car instead. There really is not a demand from new car buyers for them since income in equality is so large and new car buyers can spend $30k plus no problem. People with households below the median just always drive used.

[@michaeloreilly657]

And they didn't mention that cars last way longer, so there is more affordability in second hand.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

I've bought used since my first car in 1967. I never get collision insurance, and so far I'm way ahead. The last 3 cars were off-lease or ex-rentals. We drive little so high mileage, low price, few winters is the sweet spot.

[@canlib]

The automobile manufacturers aren't interested in producing small inexpensive vehicles with few options. Unless something drastic happens, the profit and sales model is to produce the largest vehicles with the most options, including subscriptions for their activation. Also, the cost of a new ICE vehicle vs EV will have to reach parity or better if adoption by the driving public is to take place.

[@amseam3705]

I may getting old but I like simple cars. The more they add on to the car makes it less reliable. I want a manual transmission, don't really care about the entertainment system. Used to drive 40k miles a year and like smallish cars. I buy my auto for cash and keep them at least 10years.

[@wydopnthrtl]

Me too

[@davidmannion5362]

It’s simpler to have an EV with no transmission.

[@michaeloreilly657]

The OEMs are not interested in selling you such a car, as there's no money in it for them.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

@@michaeloreilly657Then open the borders to Chinese cars.

[@user-to2rf1rj5v]

16:32 Tesla is working on a lower cost EV that will NOT be a stripped down car. Just look at the refreshed Model 3 RWD at $38,990. It's an incredible value for the dollar. It's not a basic, stripped down car by any measure. Their next generation platform will be even more affordable, and just as good of a value. Mark my words, it'll be incredibly compelling for the price. IT'll be fun to drive AND one of the safest cars on the road.

[@danharold3087]

In regards to integrating phone with car. Between the smartphone and the car there are more than enough existing sensors to determine the movement talked about at 15:40

[@judobreakdowns7616]

younger generations want the screen yes but I don't think the subwoofer is a big deal anymore tbh. So many are just streaming to airpods and stuff. Put it this way, how do young people listen to tv and music? Not many are really buying big stereos and blasting it. Heck subtitles are so popular because people aren't buying big sound systems.

[@Thatdavemarsh]

So great to see Bob again! The man who knew too much returns!

[@cuistotadomicile]

You should be looking at Tesla latest pricing : The Tesla Team, February 28, 2019 We are incredibly excited to announce that the standard Model 3, with 220 miles of range, a top speed of 130 mph and 0-60 mph acceleration of 5.6 seconds is now available at $35,000! Although lower in cost, it is built to achieve the same perfect 5-star safety rating as the longer-ranged version, which has the lowest probability of injury of any car ever tested by the U.S. Government.

[@wendellsatterwhite50]

So sad one person monopolised the conversation.

[@briansproat7904]

Indeed, however, he had a lot of good points. He tended to bully the room though.

[@dalazyone109]

over confident in assuming he knows it all ( despite Not knowing what a buyer actually likes personally in his purchase)

[@TonyBasuro]

Started as NEV but changed to LSV (lowspeedvehicle) to accommodate Polaris and UTVs.

[@stevecornell8260]

Great show John! I love the thought provoking, off topic, conversations about the overall car industry.

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

I have news for the guy blaming about safety standards, Chinese are building crashworthy cars now.

[@Engineersoldinterstingstuff]

Manufacturers choosed to ignore the customers financial capabilities and now they will feel the pain. During free money Donald Duck economy 2020-2023 everyone decided they were luxury brands, Jeep..., now they realize that if people do not have money they do not sell. By the way, customers wan't and can is two different things. People will buy what that can afford. The general population is not getting richer - they are getting poorer. Poor people want a cheap, cheap to run car.

[@tortoise62]

John dwells on average EV price of $53K, yet was silent about the leader in EV manufacturing Tesla, and that their cars are priced as low as the 30s.

[@markumbers5362]

Have these guys seen the price of the BYD Seagull.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

Have these guys driven one? John just did.

[@theipc-twizzt2789]

Oh come on, the Model 3 is 39k currently and has been available for less than 40k for quite some time now. It was also available through SAs for under 40k. The only reason it went up was because of the demand and Covid.

[@MarlinMay]

I do wonder if this show is modeled after The McLaughlin Group. 😅

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Dang, I'm sorry to say that I got that joke... 😮

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

WRONG PRICE INFLECTION POINT Non legacy is already cheaper than ICE By the time USA legacy manufacturers feel profitable to design EVs that are cheaper than their own ICE cars, true EVs and China etc. Will be dominating the market so much that legacy will have too little market share to have economically viable production run size.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

Slow death spiral.

[@victorsvoice7978]

How can electric cars cost more to make? If they have fewer parts.

[@andrewboyd5291]

Also worth noting that the avg new car consumer unconsciously discounts the present value of future savings, e.g. fuel efficiency.

[@pnketia]

It's not that legacy cannot build affordable cars, its that they do not make that much profit on them as they do with their more expensive cars and trucks. Because they are public companies if they focused on lower margin affordable vehicles investors would dump their stock because they would not like their margins.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Legacy is inefficient. There are other companies that can earn margins on their affordable cars to satisfy shareholders.

[@pspublic13]

​@@BTC_MinarchistExactly and the root of the problem starts with the hidebound business cultures of the big automakers. Too much red tape, too limited of an imagination, too little sense of urgency, not enough risk-taking, etc, etc.

[@michaeloreilly657]

​@@BTC_MinarchistUntil there is a recall.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

​@@michaeloreilly657Recalls happen all the time for every OEM, so I'm missing your point.

[@michaeloreilly657]

​@@BTC_Minarchist Affordable cars = Minimal profit. Recalls (now more frequent) = even less profit = unhappy shareholders.

[@jonathanwest6564]

I tell everyone I believe the the new VW Bug will be the Aptera. The 250 mile version around $24k with solar charging. The users community will come up with an aftermarket bolt in baby pod. So you can have two adults and 2 or 3 small children. Aptera preproduction customers have a very high percentage of engineers.

[@cesartrujillo4190]

I always loved driving my Smart for2. I didn’t use the auto driving mode. I shifted it when I wanted. The only regret I ever had was not buying the convertible. Now my biggest concern is not the vehicles that used to be on the road but the vehicles on the road now. That whole track X base thing is the whole problem. Talk about unintended consequences.

[@johnryan6003]

Average ICE care in U.S. costs more than average EV world wide. Detroit seems to be refusing to even identify the competition. China is about to be selling EV in EU. And EU is going nuts. EU can not compete with Chinese imports. Just like no one could compete with Japanese in the ‘70’s.

[@johnryan6003]

Biden blocking Chinese’s imports to us is only thing between US ICE and bankruptcy. And still DETROIT is slow walking EV transition. Oh and Biden is basically giving US based manufacturing HUGE subsides to do batteries, solar and chips to help electrification.

[@DaBooster]

Is it just me or do the guests need better microphones?

[@briansproat7904]

I'm hoping for an upgrade to that and begging for a 4k feed. Love the channel, but the video quality on AAH is disappointing. 😢

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

They need their microphones to be taken away from them.

[@cratecruncher4974]

Performance oriented drivers look at EVs and are put off by the weight relative to ICE drivetrains. I think there is a market for a fun city car that is also fun to drive in the 2000 lb/100hp range - slightly better than the $11k BYD Seagull Autoline featured recently. It doesn't need high option depth or even a spare - because it's a lightweight "performance" car. Priced at: $20k to $30 depending on options might sell quite a few.

[@205rider8]

The new 2024 model 3 weighs 4000 lbs. Many Mustangs and Camaros weigh 4000 lbs. Suggest get current on EVs.

[@cratecruncher4974]

@@205rider8 4000 pounds is a hog in tutu.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

@@cratecruncher4974 I guess that makes 2023 Scatpack a hog in a tutu. Thing weighs more than a Model Y

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

To be clear though the Model Y is the fantasia dancing hippo so, same.

[@_PatrickO]

You do not lose skills with autonomy. I used openpilot on a volt. Lane keeping that works and follows all curves is a huge improvement in safety. You can pay attention easier(yes, people will claim this is not true, anyone who has used autonomy will confirm it is true) and the eye monitoring literally prevents distracted driving. It will beep like crazy if you look away from the road for too long. Every car should have eye monitoring (this is an offline tech, no phoning home). You can tell regulators are not serious about saving lives by not mandating eye monitoring in all cars, with or without autonomy. Cars have been capable of beeping when you look away from the road for too long for over a decade. A cheap 20 dollar aftermarket device could do this with no connectivity. A cheap cam with eye detection software built in. These are solved problems.

[@DuarteMolha]

Im sorry .. i lasted 15 min... too much idiocy from people that worked all their lives in big OEM and cannot see what is right in from of their faces

[@wydopnthrtl]

We they are all very knowledgeable about what sells and what is able to be made. IMO don't underestimate them.

[@DuarteMolha]

@wydopnthrtl their thinking is what made them be blindsided by tesla and now a avalanche of Chinese manufactures will finish what tesla started.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

​@@wydopnthrtlthey were/are? I just have been watching a different video.

[@arthuri1259]

The model 3 is 38,000. I wish people would google things.

[@davidws5439]

Again, anyone here UNDER 60 years old. My god, everyone qualifies for Medicare! Guys, get your facts and numbers correct, even if you need notes... nothing wrong with notes, phone or a tablet 🤔.

[@pspublic13]

I suspect at least one of these old dinosaurs has Alzheimer's. Not John though, his questioning is on point, as always.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

🎯

[@brunoheggli2888]

Wht is it with the shamefull age discrimination?I am sure Warren Buffet dosent understand much about investing to right?

[@davidws5439]

@brunoheggli2888 It's Ok, I'm 65 years old and program CNC Mazak mills, lathes, etc. Those old guys are so out of touch. Spending 40+ years in your field, you will have biases.

[@brunoheggli2888]

​@@davidws5439It dosent matter how old you are!If companies like Toyota would listen to all the young dynamic youtuber and Elonfancs they would bankrupt the company in no time!

[@2nlove408]

You guys are the best informed Journalists, Engineers. You guys motivate me, if I had it to do again I would become an automotive engineer. These years right now are the most exciting ever for the automotive industry.

[@davidws5439]

I guess you are being sarcastic 🙄. The best informed! Maybe on old BS and wasting people's time

[@dougkinne1192]

Mr. Hall reasons by analogy only it seems. Not sure what he added in the way of actual usable data.

[@EwanM11]

Chris has a lot of interesting comments. Especially about mobile phone and computer suppliers like foxconn getting into the game of EV parts suppliers with their crazy economies of scale. More EV price drops coming.

[@jcferg3370]

Another great insightful show John. Thanks.

[@nathanroberson]

@40:20 if you wanna know about ComaAI you need to watch the Lex Friedman podcast where the founder of the company speaks for three hours about it. He’s brilliant.

[@monkeysezbegood]

EV costs are falling very fasy. ICE cars are already at their potential. EVs are the future.

[@TonyBasuro]

Can I get an electric car that's NOT CONNECTED to anything. No OTA updates wanted. a BEV S-10 pickup. Just a battery, a bed and a sled. Roll up windows and rubber floors.

[@randyrobineau2699]

I want to see a low tech EV's (truck, suv and cars). Also, I hear all the time people say "but it needs to be safe" and safe that the manufacturers are pushing to I'm not looking for. I want something that can drive straight, turn tight, high visibility (not banking off cameras), responsive brakes (brake when I want it to brake not automatically by a computer), have space in the vehicle (so my body isn't pushed up against the door/window and my head isn't an inch or so away from the roof), bright lights (to be able to see even when it's raining or snowing), better windshield wipers than vehicles have been offering, seat belts that don't lock up on you and choke you out, tires that are more appropriate to the region that it is sold (all season tires usually suck in snow, rain, ice, sand and smooth roads don't exist in real life). If this tipe of safety was focused on and made at an affordable cost maybe we could then focus on the other problem with auto accidents which is the driver. We should be teaching driving to students in high school (safe sex and driving are two really good topics that should be drilled into students).

[@Kenlwallace]

CATL are saying their battery prices halving NEXT YEAR ! … RIP ICE

[@highlanderapparel]

Well, presented Ian. Kindness was always free the Highlander.😊

[@MrZgui415]

Much Sadz because GM had the formula but poor packaging The Chevy Volt 2 had what I wanrted but I needed higher ground clearance of Cross-Over

[@ycnexu]

Loved the guests!

[@walton3470]

Great discussion, thanks

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

Sarcasm?

[@markumbers5362]

Welcome to Jurassic Park

[@ecospider5]

Who is going to buy a car that is not safe? Almost everyone. SUV rollovers made them the deadliest vehicles on the road until I was think 2012 when stability control was mandatory. Which fixed the rollover problem.

[@wzDH106]

Aviation comment was a bit off base. Aviation operates in a 3 - dimensional environment with marginal autonomy as the human must always program and command a maneuver. Yet many commercial aircraft do have the ability to communicate directly to one another, and they've been doing this for decades in the form of TCAS on the vertical field. The latest generation of TCAS will look at other aircraft threats below and above an aircraft and communicate in real time with one another, if so equipped. The human will usually be required to execute the maneuver, but ATC is completely isolated and irrelevant with this technology during a conflict.

[@michaeldrake627]

The comma ai system works very well in my friends Camry. One of the limiting factors in Tennessee seems to be cooling the devise on hot days. I don’t know why more car companies don’t license this from Comma, I only know of Aptera integrating the system. My manual Honda Fit is not supported otherwise i would purchase one

[@donaldwalthall393]

I use a comma 3 in my Rav4 I love it! It works on any road even if there are no lane lines. John, you should buy a car on the list just so you can have a Comma

[@rp9674]

John 100% on autonomous. Oversize + range + performance = $$$$$

[@jamesvandamme7786]

I can drive my own freakin' car. and I can stop every 2 hours to charge and micturate

[@rp9674]

I haven't said you can't...yet.

[@johnryan6003]

And ICE has a huge debt load. And a huge sunk cost problem in manufacturing assets rapidly depreciating.

[@earlmccoubrey7580]

The comments are about initial cost/price of new cars, and fuel/energy costs but not cost of maintenance and repairs. Parts and service prices on modern vehicles are super high, and fewer maintenance and repairs can be done by owners. This is the other shoe to drop.

[@tortoise62]

@15:00 John misses the obvious - smartphones have accelerometers - just disable the phone when traveling over “x” mph.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

MADNESS ABOUT CUTTING PHONE CALLS A) during a potential accident is the worst time to cut a call... it is an extra distraction at the worst moment and if you do crash then already having someone at the other end of the line can be life saving! B) Though as to cost, that gentleman does not know technology, phones already have accelerometers built in to them, it is just a software patch.

[@williamconrad1087]

You guys just described the disposable EV (sub 25,000 dollars). You buy it, drive it 8-12 years when its battery dies and that’s it, then Get a new one.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

In the Northeast, you'll drive it until it rusts to shit then sell the battery.

[@LifeAfterLosing]

That’s literally every single car that drives in winter weather. It’s fine with me. That’s why I don’t ever car to buy an expensive car. They all fall apart anyway. Bring on the Seagull!

[@kqschwarz]

A great discussion.

[@BobQuigley]

Born in 1952. First learned to drive in '63 bug, 40 some horsepower. Next a 1970 Maverick. Onto a German made mercury capri. Next an early Subaru and a small Toyota pickup. Perfectly acceptable vehicles. Very low cost high mpg. Enough for our family of four. Today see BLOATED boats that would embarrass a 1959 Cadillac. Efficiency gains all eaten up by these unnecessary behemoths. Marketing science combined with the insatiable demand for more more more $$net. For higher stockholder returns and C suite obscene pay packages. Worked on the collision side as a tech sales guy for 35 years. Watched the bizarre shift. Never understood the logic behind OEMS spinning off their parts operations. Of course this was to create another opportunity for more more more $$$. Suicidal behavior as money became the ONLY goal that mattered.

[@andrewm2002]

The American public doesn't want a cheap car. They complain about it on the Internet but they don't go buy the 5spd stripper model

[@wydopnthrtl]

That's true! As for me... my C5 ZO6 is pretty basic and by my standards its got more features than I care for. I honestly long for the late 70s / early 80s when a young man could get a 2DR V8 nova and if it had a radio and heater we were just fine.

[@stefanpredl6849]

becouse they are way to expansive still for what you get if you look arround at the used market

[@dalazyone109]

These old guys are stuck in their ways of thinking. if companies made smaller vehicles they liked , then customers would buy them.

[@chrisperry3525]

there is a market for an inexpensve car - a stripper car? I'm sure there's market for that. Kia/Hyundai sells a lot of cars - why? lower cost. Chevy sold a boatload of cruze/cobalt/etc.

[@wydopnthrtl]

The younger generations will embrace BEV's and ADAS. Me... V8, RWD, dual exhaust w/rumble, and a manual transmission will always... ALWAYS give me joy.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

The young are the target market. Not older folks like us.

[@wydopnthrtl]

@@BTC_Minarchist Yep and they'll gladly embrace the control over their lives as long as they can touch a screen. Me... Z06 on the Tail of the dragon is pure joy.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

@@wydopnthrtl I'm not a young guy, but I only drive an EV. I may be an exception, but I want no onion hangers, no tune ups, no time at gas stations, quiet comfort, no noise , and no clutter from physical buttons. I sold off my remaining ICe about 18 months ago. Never going back.

[@wydopnthrtl]

@@BTC_Minarchist BEV's are good at what they do. IMO... no thanks

[@BTC_Minarchist]

@@wydopnthrtl respect your opinion. Consumers should be able to choose what is best for their needs and wants. The beauty of the free market.

[@gobsmacked230]

Fantasyland talk. We "average" consumers cannot afford ANY of these cars. If you're making less than 75k a year and have other expenses, you don't have the budget for a $800-$1,200 car payment (for 60-72 months) for a low quality depreciating asset. That's what it takes to own a new car or, lord help you, a new truck. Whoever manages to reintroduce usable, reliable vehicles for UNDER $30k will own the world. In the meantime I hear repo truck drivers are in short supply.

[@Kenlwallace]

FSD Rev-12 demonstrates that FSD will be ready for prime time this year. This IS investment advice! RIP Non-Tesla EVs and ICE

[@dogownrpenna]

Perfect is the enemy of good - Voltaire

[@lengould9262]

The meeting of Dinosaurs Forever! will now stagger to order if we can get them to stop dreaming of the past. 😅😅

[@ecospider5]

Good show. I rarely watch the whole thing

[@mrnoedahl]

The way to make cars more affordable is to increase the technology and sophistication, and to allow the governments to dictate lower emissions and higher MPGs. It works every time.

[@peds103]

Feels like watching an archive from a museum…😅

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

I'm surprised it's in color

[@mediacafeonlinellc8728]

Today you can lease a @Tesla Model 3 or) for $329/mo or ($35,990) and a Model Y for $379/mo or ($36,490 after rebate)

[@edrcozonoking]

Small cars are not compelling because Americans have been trained to think Big = safe and luxury. Also we want high seating position

[@user-to2rf1rj5v]

53:09 come on! Go do some research. The Model 3 RWD is now $38,990

[@tortoise62]

interesting conversation of how government & C.A.F.E. made things worse

[@kevtheobald]

BYD and CATL are saying battery costs will drop in half this year. I suspect Panasonic and Tesla will see major reduction on battery production costs. They hit on the new mixes coming. The kain liars in the battery industry is the solid staye guys, so Toyota and Quantum Scape. You know they have been just about ready to deliver a new battery to the masses soon, which they have had said for many years. There is doubt is solud state will be the miracle for mass production EVs some claim it will be. Look at thd past five years and all the innovations that have reached the market. By 2029 it will likely make little sense for most vehicle buyers to buy an ICE or hybrid vehicle.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Without home charging at utility rates, EVs don't make sense for most people.

[@frederickfaller899]

5 years in EV world is a big deal get real

[@kevtheobald]

@@frederickfaller899 What has ICE done in the past five years, not much. It is a mature tech, as in to s of funding for decades and thus they have squeezed about as much out of it as they can. EV tech has been badly underfunded for a century and we got lucky portable electronics needed better batteries which helps drive an major increase in battery tech which helped the overall EV tech to improve. Five years in the automotive industry is a blink. Yes, Toyota, VW, Ford, and Buick saw their sales in China drop off a cliff in just a couple of years. Tesla is dramatically bigger than it was five years ago. In the grand scheme of the business world, five years is not much. Maybe long for you, but really, in the business of manufacturing five years is nothing.

[@frederickfaller899]

Who are these old school jokers there trying to hang on to their jobs what a joke they never even drove a Tesla .

[@davidws5439]

All you guys except John are EV snobs. I don't even think John drives an EV on a daily basis or owns one. John, get some EV guests that sees 😊the future.