Avionics Panel Upgrade in 1968 Piper Cherokee - Garmin GNC355, G5's, and PS Engineering PMA450B

[@billorgeorgesmith8700]

Just now at square one in a very similar upgrade. I appreciate your time *tippin my hat to ya*

[@bud3965]

airline mechanic here. was just thinking how impressive this project was and then you got me with a full LOL with the head injury! That my friend makes you a part of the club. Thanks for the inspiration on my own piper restoration

[@sators]

I definitely misplaced my tools many MANY times throughout the project as well. :-) Thanks for watching!

[@jakepowers36]

Brother, you are a Jedi Master! I just went under contract on a 1964 Cherokee 235 in need of a panel upgrade. Thank you so much for sharing.

[@sators]

Hey thanks and congrats! You'll love it! Hope your upgrade goes smoothly.

[@gregledbet1]

It was fun to watch, thank you for selecting the PMA450B- Greg @ PS Engineering

[@sators]

Thanks Greg ~ and thanks for all the work you do in making great products! :)

[@dansflying629]

Matt!! That was great man, glad to see owners doing their own work! No one cares more about your plane than you!!

[@sators]

Thanks!! Glad you enjoyed. :-) Wishing you clear smooths skies!

[@jonathannguyen6706]

Are there any limitations on what kind of work an owner can do when it comes to avionics? I'm assuming just piecing it all together and inserting it into the panel are okay?

[@IamJasonHall]

@@jonathannguyen6706 You can do as much as your A/P &/or I/A will allow you to. That being said, finding an A/P or I/A that is friendly to owners doing the work is a bit tricky and your mileage may vary.

[@DWBurns]

I am impressed, when my body was able I could have never done this. Building my Jeep I ran new wire for most everything but my mechanic told me exactly what to do, one step at a time. Building wire harnesses from reading the directions is amazing.

[@gregloch6743]

Definitely my new favorite GA Aviation KZbin channel. Keep up the great work, dude!

[@sators]

Appreciate it! More to come! 😄

[@jj355f1]

It's nice that you had the chops to take it on. Great job!

[@sators]

Thanks!!

[@Loves2Fly]

Great video. Thanks for sharing. I’m doing the same thing to my Cherokee 180 except the GPS175.

[@tbeevers]

Impressive and extremely informative. I’ve got a 65 PA-235 hangared at BMG that needs the identical upgrade. Just installed a JPI EDM 830 so this is next years project. BTW…flown into EYE multiple times to eat at Ricks. Nice airport! Thanks again

[@sators]

Awesome! You'll enjoy the upgrade. An upgraded engine monitor is likely next on my list as I'm nearing overhaul. 😖 Ricks is great!

[@nick.simmer]

Thanks for sharing. I was going to vlog my upgrade when I removed some old king gear and replaced with newer stuff. Soon, I’ll be moving to dual g5 and gtx345 and I’ll definitely vlog that. I already told the A&P looking over my shoulder he might get make it into a video. Haha. Nice work!

[@sators]

Awesome - you'll love the stack! Have fun!

[@MotuSethGopangamDas]

I can’t even do an oil change by myself. Kudos!

[@sators]

Where there's a will, there's a way!

[@seano636]

Wow Matt. Excellent video and great job on your new avionics.

[@sators]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@victorvodkafish]

Thanks Matt, very interesting and well executed video. Three points I'd like to make.... The iPAD on the yoke: I don't think I could fly with the iPAD screen at varying angles. I have mounted mine on a flexible "gooseneck" that is attached securely to the panel. That way, it can easily be positioned for either pilot, and to avoid reflections on screen. If doing any drilling, I would have a blanket spread below to catch the metal chips. Lastly, I found it more comfortable using pillows and blankets when working under the panel. Your checklists and radio calls were excellent. Video on final over city was fun! Allan (Australia)

[@sators]

Hey thanks for the feedback! I have played with many different positions of the iPad and yoke mount was the spot that hides the fewest number of critical gauges. I would really like it to be window mounted top left since I am left handed and use the pen/scratch pad often, but it hides my stall light and I have no audible stall warning so that feels too risky. The changing angle of the iPad is only experienced and in turns - the reality is the majority of the iPad usage is during straight and level and works out as a best compromise of all aspects. Good call on metal shavings. Thankfully my shop vac picked it all up. REALLY great idea for pillows. I’ll definitely be trying that out! Safe flying!

[@davidpeight4115]

Great job, I am impressed...I am currently working on and engine monitoring system for my cherokee 180, and then have plans to upgrade like you did...Thank you for sharing the journey!!

[@sators]

I am very excited to get a better engine monitoring system as the "next" big thing...thinking of doing that when it goes in for overhaul here in the next few years. 💸. Thanks for watching!

[@donaldalmeida2483]

Fascinating project along with your attitude toward doing it yourself. If you read this, I suggest you connect to the 2023 MIT commencement exercises on KZbin and listen to the guest speaker. I think you'll find that your attitude has a lot in common with the speaker's message. Best regards.

[@sators]

Hard not to love good @MarkRober content! Thanks!!

[@tomendicott6846]

Thanks for sharing Matt! Well done!

[@sators]

Thanks Tom!!

[@jshrawder49]

Great job!! Happy flying!!!

[@bernardanderson3758]

The Garmin GNC 335 is a nice one to operate

[@MrSixstring2k]

Congratulations and well done,

[@sators]

Thanks!

[@richardgreen6857]

Just bought my first airplane, (a little late in life...but) and I'm upgrading with a used Garmin GNS-430W and new 106A CDI, already has the GTX 327 transponder and a GTR 225 radio, I want to do the Instrument Rating and an Instructor's Rating in the airplane, as well as some travel with my wife...we won't get there fast, but it sure will be fun! Very informative video! I'd love to find out more about the wiring harnesses you made up and the manual information used.

[@sators]

Congrats on the airplane! What questions do you have about the harness/manuals that I can help answer?

[@richardgreen6857]

@@sators your video of course being edited makes it look like it took 20 or 30 minutes to create your wiring harnesses...I'm fairly sure it took longer. My question is essentially: do the installation manuals make it easy enough for a layman to assemble and route them? I'm an electrical idiot...but I've been assured by others that installing the GNS-430 and CDI is a relatively "simple" job.

[@sators]

@@richardgreen6857 Hollywood Magic! It tends to take a little longer, especially if you are tedious which I tend to be. All the manuals outline are what pin connectors on what ports are for what - for example, "Power In +" or "Power In -", or "Audio Out Hi", "Audio Out Lo". It is up to you to determine 1) If a conductor needs to be connected to that pin, and if so 2) Where that needs to be connected. This is why I created my own custom wiring diagram (lucid.app/lucidchart/51b2b9e5-b772-4496-a5f8-da64f60aabed/edit?page=0_0#) that I created with boxes and pin layouts and lines connecting pins to each other so I could keep track of what needs to go where. This significantly aids in the process of ensuring you have done everything, determining cable lengths, how many cables and conductor counts you need, etc.

[@richardgreen6857]

@@sators that was incredibly generous of you! Thank you so much for the boost. Between myself and one of my closest flying technical wizards, I might be able to pull this off!

[@sators]

Definitely! Take your time and triple check yourself!

[@robertmendez7376]

Wow, Speechless. Well done, Amazing. And thats just your hair! My wife love my hair short. But seriously Excellent video!

[@sators]

Hey thanks! Appreciate it! :-)

[@DK-Spencer]

Great Video! You deserve more subs just for this one! Cheers

[@sators]

Much appreciated!

[@brandonsorenson9178]

About to install dual GI275, GNC355, PMA8000G, and GFC500 AP… hope I have the same patience lol

[@sators]

That’s awesome! There are some many other things I would have wanted to do, but had to stop somewhere. The AP is definitely on that list. Hope it goes well!!

[@brandonsorenson9178]

@@sators Not much of a person to make videos but I’ll try to capture the transformation and post it. Pretty excited to have all the same tools I have at work in the Cherokee.

[@bernardanderson3758]

Great to see you Briefly going through your Before takeoff check list

[@bernardanderson3758]

I have a friend who has his 172XP in a avionics shop for Upgrades and it’s great but unfortunately it’s out of annual now and still isn’t complete yet after 4 months

[@sators]

Ugh that sounds like a nightmare! 😱

[@scwdds1]

Amazing!! Great job!!

[@sators]

Thank you!!

[@HawkGT1977]

Did you buy the components new or used? IF used were they yellow tagged? Did you consider buying a pre-built wiring interface or would you go this route in retrospect? Anything you would do different if you had to do it again? Did your A&P want to check on interim progress or just a final at the end? Well done on your project, looks great!

[@sators]

Thanks for the questions! All of the components were bought new. I did consider having an avionics shop build out the harness, but in retrospect, I really enjoyed the process of making it myself, saving a good chunk of $$, I know exactly where every wire is going, and I learned lots along the way so I'd do it all again. The problem I have now is the self-control of what I want to upgrade next...whoa there cowboy!

[@texasscout1]

Interesting, Have a request for a quote on the 175 and 2 G5's, on my 68 PA180D many things on the plane I can do myself, just not sure I am willing to tackle that project.

[@sators]

That's awesome - you'll love the gear!

[@bernardanderson3758]

Replacement of those selves isn’t easily put back except as you know the drilling process begins

[@GeneWalkGroup]

Very cool ! I’d love to do this in my plane . I own a 67 Piper Cherokee 140 . So you were able to do all the work yourself and you got your AP to sign off on . Looks like you might have electrical background .

[@sators]

Thanks! Indeed - I'm a professional audio engineer and have done a lot of AV installation work over the past 20 years that helped contribute to some confidence in taking on the project.

[@rogerd9150]

@@sators Perhaps Gene is asking what credentials does someone need to be able to do this and sign it off? Can anybody just make wholesale changes to an instrument panel? Thanks a lot!

[@sators]

Sure - the AP officially signs it off, and then an avionics shop certifies that it is all approved for IFR (every 24 calendar months - www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ifr-certified-aircraft-where-is-certification-documented.63276/)

[@rogerd9150]

@@sators Thanks a lot!

[@thefreshies]

You were putting off engineering vibes. I spent the better part of my early twenties in audio engineering making all the cables. I did see where you can have companies build a harness to you, too, if you don't want to build the harness yourself. Anywho I am in the market for a vfr flyer that I too can upgrade the panel in myself for ifr. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@martyblaker8409]

Thanks for doing this video. I am researching a very similar upgrade for my '65 Cherokee 180, and this was SUPER helpful. If you have any tips or additional info about cutting the panel cover to work with the G5s, I would love to hear your advice. If here is not the right place for that conversation, I can provide an email@ Thanks again!

[@sators]

My strategy for cutting the plastic panel piece is to take your time, go slow. I used an exacto knife and was very conservative, cutting a little bit off at a time and test fitting so that I didn’t end up cutting off too much. Have fun!

[@XRP_Rocketry]

Great job.

[@sators]

Thank you!

[@XRP_Rocketry]

I’m the owner of a pa28-161 hangared at MQJ and looking to do the same to my panel

[@sators]

Awesome! I was first based at MQJ for the first year I owned until a spot opened up at EYE!

[@justinq8345]

Is it just me or does this guy look like Nick cage at certain angles

[@timothywackerle2374]

lol. 100%!

[@bernardanderson3758]

Sators didn’t know you had a talent of being a avionics technician and you are saving a lot of cost in manual labor for what it cost

[@rsbelser9212]

Hi again. So is the GNC355 sending the Gps signal to the DG and you have the autopilot switch pointing to heading so it tracks?

[@sators]

That's right! In G5 terminology it's considered GPSS - "GPS Steering"

[@Aaron-qh3hr]

An owner is allowed to install avionics as long as it’s signed off by an A&P and an avionics tech?

[@sators]

Correct! See FAR 65.81

[@Aaron-qh3hr]

@@sators awesome! I’m not a pilot yet, so I’m not familiar with the rules. I’m handy like you, so from what I’ve seen being able to do some of the work myself will save a lot of labor dollars when I get my own plane. You earned a sub from me! I love These kinds of vids.

[@sators]

@@Aaron-qh3hr Thanks, I'm cheering you on! It's awesome! :-)

[@benjaminburns5180]

Wow man very impressive! Do you have a background in electronics, to do all this or were you able to figure it out by all those instructions and diagrams you mention in the beginning? Either way still very nice, I know avionics are very expensive, and installing them yourself saves a TON but even if I had a plane (which I hope to one day) I don't know if I'd be up to tackling such a challenge. Great work, and great video.

[@sators]

Thanks for the comment! I do have over 20yrs of being a professional audio engineer under my belt which has involved a considerable amount of soldering, and I've tinkered with Arduino's and Raspberry Pi's...this project definitely was dealing with components, cable qualities, and even pin/connector types that I have never done before. Like I mentioned, the SteinAir playlist really helped level up the knowledge, but ultimately the confidence was grounded in making up that wiring diagram, getting the right inputs to outputs, and having patient quality control checks along the way to make sure I hadn't messed anything up.

[@billwood4182]

How do record the audio. Very clear !!

[@sators]

I use this for interfacing with the plane's audio panel: www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/11806?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6-SDBhCMARIsAGbI7UiK4IFsRdWGYmDiS74qCILQoPcTbgaQkHv8dfr9q9MscbgW_4gkTAwaAsF0EALw_wcB And I used this mic for just general GoPro audio when working on the plane (that I acquired halfway thru making this video): amzn.to/2RI3USL (use the USB-C adapter that the plane audio panel interface comes with)

[@todda8695]

Nice job! FLy safe!

[@sators]

Thanks!

[@zz3709]

What certifications did you need to be able to do this? Are you an A&P?

[@sators]

No certifications and I'm not an A&P. You do need an A&P to "supervise" and to sign off on the install, and then an avionics shop to perform the altimeter/airspeed/ads-b tests.

[@rsbelser9212]

Great video. How do you like the GBC355 and is the autopilot working well? I am looking to do the same upgrade . Thanks

[@sators]

Great question! Everything is working great together. I have my IFR rating and the system works fantastic. If there is one regret, I wish I had swapped out my transponder with the upgraded version that has ADS-B in at the time of upgrade so I could see weather and traffic all on the 355. I have a stratus and iPad so I see it there, but sure would be great to have it on the 355 as well. Good luck, fire away any questions as they come up!

[@factoryracecar]

Thank you for this. What software version is required on dual G5s to be able to utilize GAD 13? I am installing the GAD 13 with GTP 59 OAT sensor and my Cherokee has dual G5s with Garmin 530 and GTX 345. Also had GAD 29B for STEC 30 autopilot.

[@sators]

I'm not sure at what firmware version they introduced compatibility, but I installed the G5's with version 6.82 and the temp/winds work great from the GAD 13. Looks like the current is 7.10: www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=10361

[@GrumpyBumpy]

Love the 235. Great plane. Impressive panel work. How many “real” hours did it take to overhaul the panel?

[@sators]

Thanks! That's a good question - I was not keeping a counter going...I would guesstimate (now 8 months later) that it probably took between 10-20h to create the harness (with over 200 crimp/solder points!) and somewhere between 20-40h in the plane? This was spread out over a few weeks though, heading to the hangar on random evenings or weekend and chip away little by little.

[@GrumpyBumpy]

@@sators thx, then a 100-120 hr estimate from a shop for a full panel rework (new metal panel, relocating switches and CBs and install new radios isn’t too crazy.

[@sators]

@@GrumpyBumpy Not at all - I could EASILY see it getting there. Though part of me wonders if there would be some aspect that would make it easier if you didn't have to worry about maintaining existing devices/wiring 🤔

[@matteopregnolato7760]

Lovely video and great upgrade! One question: what about the ipad yoke support? Is it annoying during take off and landing or you feel as free as you’re flying without that support?

[@sators]

Thanks for the comment! I'm not sure I fully understand the question - I don't find the iPad yoke mount annoying at all and I make sure it doesn't interfere on anything in the full travel of the yoke. Therfore, on takeoff/landing I don't really notice it being there. I haven't been satisfied with any other position of the iPad that doesn't interfere with seeing any important gauges.

[@bassheart365]

Do you have a background in electronics?

[@sators]

I have been a professional audio engineer since 2002 and done a lot of soldering over the years, as well as tinker with Arduinos and things like that. This was certainly my most in depth endeavor though. Thanks for the watch!

[@indyvin1622]

would an A&P normally do this?

[@sators]

I think most A&Ps don't feel comfortable getting into avionics for a customer, but they can sign off on install/W&B and then an actual avionics shop to certify the avionics for altitude/adsb

[@PiperFlyer]

I Loved it! I fly the same airplane model, but a 1977 version made by embraer in brazil. Actualy I a little concerned about my IAS in cruise flight, I noticed that you're about 20 inches of manifold at 3500' and got an IAS of about 125. I my case I usualy use 23 inches of manifold in this altitude and 2400RPM and got an IAS of 121 maximum. Do you have any speed kit installed ? Thanks!

[@sators]

Good questions - I do have wheel pants and some speed kits installed from previous owners, so that may be the differences here. Thanks!

[@joshuaanderson4277]

How did you broach the subject to your a&p that you wanted to do it yourself? I'm wanting to upgrade my own avionics in my cardinal but not sure who I'd talk to about signing off on it.

[@sators]

I asked them casually face to face if it would be a possibility and then sent a deep dive email with the full plans to be sure they were still on board giving them the opportunity to be "out".

[@joshuaanderson4277]

That sounds easy enough. Thanks for the help

[@azcharlie2009]

I have a 79 Archer and am considering replacing my KNS80 with a GTN650xi. I'd also like to add an HSI. I've heard so much about the Piper/Century autopilots not being compatible with the new electronic instruments. Just wonder what your comments are on that. It appears you had to leave your vacuum operated AI in to work with the IIIB?

[@sators]

I haven't looked up anything about the GTN650xi, though, there was explicit documentation with the G5's on how to interface to the Century autopilot. I also was able to stumble upon a blog post (that I'm having a hard time finding now...) that had links to specific part numbers for ordering components to create the interface to make them work. If it's of interest, I can put together a list of those parts that I ended up using for the G5 to IIB. You are correct, my IIB receives it's level positioning information from my vacuum driven AI, so had to keep that on board.

[@azcharlie2009]

@@sators From what I know, the Century IIIB will "work" with the GPS but will not provide GPS Steering. It may overshoot and suspend at times, but it will track reasonably straight if you get it close with the heading bug. However, I think the G5 HSI can fix that. Does your HSI have that ability? As far as I know, the Century by itself cannot fly approaches without a little help from the heading bug. Also, I would appreciate that list of parts you mentioned in your reply. Thanks. Rick in Tucson

[@sators]

@@azcharlie2009 Yes, My G5 HSI provides GPS Steering by essentially communicating desired course direction to the Century (turn left, turn right, level). I can also turn off GPS Steering and the autopilot will lock to the heading bug of the G5. I'll lookup the parts list I used...

[@sators]

@@azcharlie2009 From the Garmin G5 STC Installation Manual PDF, search for the section 5.24.1 GAD 29B Interface to Century Autopilots (static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-10_28.pdf). This details the wiring and electrical components. Essentially: www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/SP-66/237-1151-ND/242673 www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/JW-Miller/8250-183K-RC www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Diodes-Incorporated/1N4007-T amzn.to/3FDcS83

[@azcharlie2009]

@@sators Thank you so much! I have a fair amount of electronics training. At first glance, it doesn't look that difficult. I'll study the information you gave me. My DG and KNS80 were acting up the other day while preparing for my Instrument Proficiency Check.. I may need a new navigator and G5 HSI sooner than I thought!

[@freddb34]

Great job but the head mounted camera jumping almost made me nauseous!

[@sators]

I'll try to work slower next time! 😇

[@simonschafshund6566]

How much did it cost?

[@CarlJohnson-dt9yf]

So, it's ok for owner to replace wiring?

[@sators]

Experimental/Home built guys do it all the time - as long as it has been supervised by an A&P, it's ok. See: www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2009/september/15/shop-talk-avionics-installations

[@CarlJohnson-dt9yf]

@@sators awesome, I prefer my own work over typical A&P :-)

[@sators]

@@CarlJohnson-dt9yf There's something to be said for eliminating the mystery for the pilot of how the plane's systems are interconnected. An A&P's perspective and input can provide valuable insight too and the second set of eyes to see something we might be overlooking though...

[@ryansimpson4781]

What program did you make your wiring diagram on?

[@sators]

I used Lucid Chart - www.lucidchart.com/pages/

[@ragheadand420roll]

And inside the dash heres a box To hold your weed 🇺🇸👍🏻✌🏻

[@sators]

😂

[@wingman2472]

Hi is your iPad a Mine ? as I'm wanting to get one for when I start flying don't want to get the wrong size

[@sators]

I have a regular iPad 6th gen. iPad size really comes down to preference and where you are going to put it, there is no “wrong size” as there are mounts for all sizes. My recommendation is to cut out some sheets of paper at the various iPad sizes and go sit in the plane with them and see which size works best for your setup, then go to the apple store and make sure you are comfortable with that size prior to final purchase. Make sure you budget for a way to get ADSB In if you don’t have it onboard already as getting traffic and weather while inflight is extremely valuable. Thanks for watching!

[@wingman2472]

@@sators thanks very much very good advice I've not got licence or plane so would ne putting cart before the horse lol but very determined to get both. & any advise will be welcome . thanks

[@sators]

@@wingman2472 Ya, I think that is the cart before the horse a little bit - different avionics stacks and cockpit layouts would justify different iPad sizes. This article from Sporty's is a really good deep dive on the topic: ipadpilotnews.com/2021/10/whats-the-best-ipad-for-pilots-2021-buyers-guide/

[@staxats96]

wow i am dumb as shit

[@mattivirta]

if new gauges has FREE can update but i can fly all my life old gauges no waste money stupid update newer.

[@marriannegt909]

please dont get a vintage car