Avro Canada C102 Jetliner - The World's 2nd Jet Airliner

[@C2K777]

My god, Howe had a passionate, and interfering, disdain for this poor plane eh. History tells us that Hughes was rarely impressed with anything so having seemingly attained the rare achievement of getting the man actively interested this was clearly a missed opportunity brought about by Howe's hatred of the thing. As ever you've provided an insightful bit of history to us for a Saturday morning.

[@davehitchman5171]

howes was clearly a twat and wrecked the company

[@TIMMEH19991]

@@davehitchman5171 Meddling politicians. No use to man nor beast.

[@jamiecanivet66]

I think that with Howe's tremendous pul politically, he could have handled the US government if he had gotten the licensing arranged. On must wonder if Howe had connections to US aircraft manufacturers...he was after all An americam living in Canada.

[@donaldstanfield8862]

@@jamiecanivet66 Wow, I didn't realize his nationality, that's fascinating

[@raynus1160]

The Jetliner arguably held greater potential than the CF-105.

[@markdoldon8852]

"Potential" vs an order for 100 ACTUAL orders doesn't get you much.

[@raynus1160]

@@markdoldon8852 Which had been scaled back to 20 pre-production and 17 production aircraft for testing and evaluation. As you're likely aware, only five were fully completed.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

Its amazing how badly the Canadian government handled AVROs brilliance.

[@markdoldon8852]

Canadian government had very little to do with this plane. The timing was just off. Arguably, if the Korean War hadn't come along ,their priorities would have been different, although fighting against/caving in to US protectionism (as they did later with Arrow) would possibly still have doomed it. The Us has always treated Canada like a little sister: "give them a few jobs so they can back us up when needed, but don't do anything that might affect US companies."

[@swamprat69er]

@@markdoldon8852 You can thank Diefenbaker (the former Prime Minister of the day) for cancelling the AVRO project after pressure from the U.S.

[@jamiecanivet66]

@@swamprat69er and the fallacy/myth continues.

[@mothmagic1]

No worse than the way the British government our aviation industry

[@papaloongie]

Diefenbaker got a phone call . Uncle Sam says “nooo!!” They had just put in a whack of bomarck missles so that was that. Happily for the US, many of those engineers went to NASA and many other companies. Lockheed springs to mind. Not surprisingly, many Jaguars were purchased;-)) Lol We’re still bitter about it…

[@Tom-Lahaye]

Absolutely a good looking plane, what a shame this project did not get the support it deserved.

[@jocelynhurtubise2420]

Very interesting post, It could had been the world first Jet Airliner but it missed being the first by one week or two. And according to Jim Floyd book "The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner " the Comet flew only a few feet in the air for is first flight. The CF-102 flew a few thousand feet on it maiden flight.

[@joshuaharlow4241]

Wow! Always learning something new! The C102 was not in "catalog" of aircraft... thank you for making the video!!! Well done as always! Love the format.

[@uzaiyaro]

Ah yes, a classic aircraft built with four dimensions. Span, length, height, and politics.

[@donaldstanfield8862]

The sad truth!

[@greateraviationgl91]

"Which got the first three right, but ultimatley feel out for the last one" -Curious Droid

[@emaheiwa8174]

Such a shame

[@zanelindsay1267]

A really fascinating documentary on a facet of jet aircraft development which I had never heard of before. I have found all of these "Motion History" stories to be really interesting and well done in a concise format.

[@wraithconscience]

Hi Ruairidh, another fantastic video. Thanks so much. 😊

[@TheHylianBatman]

What a storied development, and what lost potential. I always like learning about missed opportunities like these; who knows what might've gone different if things had unfolded in a different order? I know this doesn't have much to do with the video, but it is so odd to see British troops firing in lines in color footage and contemporary uniforms, instead of re-enactment uniforms. They really clung on as long as possible to their tactics, huh? I also don't normally think of Canada when I think of developing new things, so that's good. I'm always glad to learn more Canadian history.

[@nairbvel]

I'm amazed at how Canada seems to keep getting whacked upside the head with a 2x4 for developing advanced aircraft... Aviation history would be very different if not for the decision of just a very few individuals concerning production or certain Canadian aircraft.

[@donaldstanfield8862]

It plays out like a cartoon, so sad and ridiculous, looking back at it.

[@eat_a_dick_trudeau]

Its the Canadian way. If we create something good, we scrap it, bury it, or give it away. We are the perpetual losing team.

[@None-zc5vg]

The British aircraft industry was wrecked on U.S. orders, it's widely believed: the U.K. has a quisling Parliament.

[@muchorelaxo5580]

Canadian government bowing to the American government. Americans don’t like compilation. They will force you out of business and collect all the assets.

.....and the most mind boggling thing is that we did it to ourselves 😢

[@torchris1]

One of my Dad’s close friends actually had a flight engineer's license for the Jetliner. Unfortunately he passed away quite a while ago and I have no idea what happened to to the paperwork. BTW, in Canada we would normally pronounce CD Howe's name like "how" in "How are you?".

[@torchris1]

I also wonder how much the tragic explosions of the original Comets depressed interest in jet passenger planes - at least for a short while.

[@donaldstanfield8862]

@@torchris1 Oddly, it didn't seem to keep Comet passengers away, as they continued flying for a time until the grounding to find the cause.

[@deltavee2]

Re the pronunciation of Howe's last name, ho is entirely appropriate since he was one.

[@martentrudeau6948]

It seems there was a conspiracy to kill Avro Canada C102 Jetliner. To bad, it should have had great success. Thanks Ruairidh, great history and video.

[@leftcoaster67]

The Korean War was on and C.D. Howe wanted Avro to get the CF-100 Canuck in production as fast as possible. But he didn't understand you could easily have built both at the same time. TCA was never really invested with the C-102. It's sad that Rolls Royce said that the Avon engine was only a military aircraft. Yet later on the DeHavilliand Comet would use Avon engines.

[@PaulR1200]

Incredible shame, such a handsome aircraft that was witch hunted by terrible short sighted human influence. Thank you for your work mate. Cheers NZCH

[@markdoldon8852]

Witch hunt? I see a manager who sees a LOT more need for military aircraft (in the midst of a "police action"/war) than he does in a new concept. That's not a witch hunt, that's a (perhaps short sighted,) legitimate bet). When the US began applying protectionist cold war policies, Canada's chance to take a real leading role was essentially gone. Hundreds of aircraft have come and gone over the years, often failing for much less logical reasons.

[@trevorhart545]

From UK. Canada punching above its weight. Avro Arrow a threat to US Aerospace. Canada and Australia have always been Innovators and this is not because the UK "taught you aerospace skills" they were already there but that cooperation produces more than the sum of the individuals. Canadian company working with the UK on a new style Fusion Reactor is another example. Just stop beating us at the sports we invented, please!

[@None-zc5vg]

The Canadair 'North Star ' was a pressurised, re-engined version of the Douglas DC-4, not the DC-6.

[@viscount757]

The North Star did have some DC-6 features, including the pressurization system, landing gear, and a very similar cabin layout and the rectangular windows of the DC-6 on the pressurized airline model (not the unpressurized RCAF military transport version). Apart from the engines, the airline vesion was a hybrid of the DC-4 and DC-6 but is generally considered as being more closely related to the DC-4, acounting for its official DC-4M1 (unpressurized RCAF version) and DC-4M2 (pressurized airline version) designations.. The first 6 aircraft for the RCAF were built with airline interiors and temporarily operated by Trans-Canada Air Lines while waiting for their pressurized North Stars about a year later.

[@TomLuTon]

Quick correction: Victory Aircraft/Avro was not in Hamilton, but Malton Ontario

[@daviddunsmore103]

Exactly, on the site of the current Lester B Pearson International Airport, in Mississauga.

[@dalecaldwell]

A sad story I had neve heard before. Thank you fo this fascinating video.

[@quailking8265]

Awesome video as always - you are literally the David Attenborough of Vehicles. Just for a question - are you planning to make a video about the antonov an 225 which was just destroyed in Ukraine?

[@donaldstanfield8862]

That would be awesome!

[@britishfilmguy]

Good shout there

[@BobbyGeneric145]

He doesn't respond.

[@RonJohn63]

As an American: thanks, C.D. Howe!!

[@drewthompson7457]

I'm pretty sure Canadian politics would have messed it up even without C. D. Howes' help.....

[@roymanzini2521]

Avro C102 Jetliner was probably the biggest commercial missed opportunity for Canada. Unfortunately, AVRO was managed by C.D. Howe's handpicked managers who would not dare stand up to him. AVRO is a cautionary tale about industry totally dependent on government contracts and their whims.

[@cellpat2686]

This is the little jetliner that could...... But they wouldn't let it.

[@anair70]

What is it with these Canadians...they can design and build great and innovative aircraft but these are then shot down by their own government!

[@rugosetexture2716]

It's politics, I'm afraid. C.D. Howe was a 'Liberal'.

[@georgebarnes8163]

Same in the UK, the UK government killed of practically all UK aircraft manufacturers in a very short time.

[@TheOldGord]

Politicians and bureaucrats in Canada have a history of suppressing Canadian business and innovation. The Jetliner, Avro Arrow, the whole Canadian petroleum industry are just a few examples.

[@eat_a_dick_trudeau]

Our government likes to keep up our record as the losing team.

[@anair70]

@@eat_a_dick_trudeau a lot of countries are torpedoed by their own leaders!. Have a great week ahead!

[@britishfilmguy]

Do like these aviation films really detailed and quite accurate to.!

[@macjim]

While you're on the subject of Canadian aircraft, and it's aircraft industry, the next aircraft to cover would be the Avro Arrow... One of two great losses (the Arrow and the TSR2).

[@donaldstanfield8862]

All these aircraft were such exciting and capable examples, it makes it very sad for what might have developed from them. Their loss was a horrible blow to the industry and families associated with it, it's disturbing to think American political influence caused these loses.

[@drewthompson7457]

I have wasted some time wondering what Avro Canada's 4th aircraft would have been.

[@MicrophonicFool]

A bunch of years ago someone was working on an MS Flightsim model of the C102, but I don't think it was ever completed. I would very much like to fly it

[@donaldstanfield8862]

The Jetliner and Arrow are all the more brilliant against the bitterness of their abandonment, it's so frustrating to see these fantastic aircraft thrown away. Sad in so many ways. Did the US influence it to grab the aerospace workforce? Politics are harsh, damn. Peace. 🙏🇺🇦💙💛

[@maryrafuse3851]

Yes the US did grab great engineers for NASA but Canadian Politicians were gutless as well. No moral fiber/backbone protecting Canadian national interest. I say this as a Canadian.

[@None-zc5vg]

@@maryrafuse3851 Maybe 'corruption' had more to do with it than 'gutlessness': nobody gets into Big Politics without that essential lack of integrity.

[@uzaiyaro]

8:20 and that’s why we perform first flights with the landing gear down. Not sure about the second flights though.

[@mikelarin8037]

What's the tailess jet at 2:00? Edit: found it. The DH 108

[@viscount757]

You say the aircraft was so large it couldn't be parked at the terminal on its visit to New York in April 1950. That comment doesn't make sense as the Avro C-102 was significantly smaller in both overall length and wingspan than the DC-4, DC-6 and Constellation which were all in extensive use at Idlewild airport then. Even compared to the smallest of those models, the DC-4, the Avro C-102 was 11 feet shorter and wingspan was 19 feet less.

[@radiosnail]

Good to see this aircraft get a video. Such a missed opportunity! Blasted CD Howe. Good lord, these could have lasted into the 70s or even 80s. Better engines might have resulted in a two engine version again. Avro Canada did not have a lot of luck in spite of their abilities.

[@grahamhufton7715]

Avro (victory) was in Malton Ontario not Hamilton. Sight of the current Pearson airport (YYZ)

[@t5ruxlee210]

As the Korean War ramped up, a major roadblock for all "nonessential aviation projects" did as well. The allocation of American aluminum alloy sheet for aircraft became more and more restrictive. Avro Canada could only get access to the material needed when building CF-100 interceptors for Canada and Europe. Developing and mass producing domestic lighter, stronger, aviation aluminum alloys at competitive prices, in a timely fashion, was well beyond the country's 1950's strained resources.

[@canamwing6999]

Looked a lot like the Avro Ashton!

[@davidgill2592]

Looks very similar to the UK's Avro Ashton

[@chasermalloy7406]

Look like it would have been the pick of the two designs. At lest it had round windows !

[@drstevenrey]

So, the C102 was actually a better built and better engined Avro Ashton. That would mean that is was not the second, but the third jet airliner in the air, since the Ashton was a year ahead of the Comet.

[@cellpat2686]

By the time the 707 and the DC8 entered the picture, it became impossible for everyone else to compete.

[@scootergeorge7089]

0:50 Not a DC3, Lockheed Electra?

[@viscount757]

Yes, Lockheed 14 Super Electra.

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

"DC-3" *Actually, that's a Lockheed L-12 Electra Junior if I'm not mistaken. oopsies.*

[@viscount757]

No, it's a Lockheed 14 Super Electra.

[@barryervin8536]

Why would it have to be parked way out away from the terminal because it was "too large"? It was smaller and lighter than a DC-6. Just some general paranoia about those new-fangled jet engines?

[@andyrob3259]

Says everything about Canada and its government and people that not one finger was lifted to preserve the air frame. Couldn’t find anyone anywhere to store it - ffs. In a nation that has no problem with over abundance of shopping malls and drive through restaurants and finding land for them, no one has an acre of land to build a warehouse?

[@None-zc5vg]

The same in the U.K.: not one of the thousands of WW2 'Halifax' bombers was preserved intact after the war: it took Canadians to raise a damaged airframe from a Norwegian lake and restore it to near-perfect condition. A similar one found by the Brits was left as found, rusted and damaged.

[@melvyncox3361]

Such a looker of an aircraft.Such a shame the events went against it.lt would have changed the aviation sector irrevocably!

[@hjhkgjfawdferyyurv1222]

ngl have the search it up to know it

[@drewthompson7457]

Ive wondered what Avro Canada's 4th aircraft would have been, had they survived long enough

[@viscount757]

The lack of swept wings would have made it very uncompetitive in speed with the other early commercial jets then under development such as the Boeing 707 and Caravelle. Even the original Comet 1 had modestly swept wings.

[@drewthompson7457]

It was built as an early short haul aircraft. Ultimate speed wasn't as important as being able to use existing airports. It was chopped up before the 707 flew.

[@ydhirsch]

Canadair North Star was a DC-4 variant, not DC-6.

[@drstevenrey]

I just found out that Clarence D. Howe died in the same hospital and on the same day as I was born. I hope I did not inherit any of his failings, as there are so many.

[@kidmohair8151]

oh Canada

[@refiandikrisnawan]

hello Ruairidh MacVeigh, I'm admin of the modelkitindo channel, I ask permission to hanging this video on my channel as a teaser, and I will enclose your channel name on the video and link in description ... thank you

Im amazed they didn't preserve it not only as a technological marvel but because howard hughes piloted it😢

[@andrewallen9993]

I always thought it was the first?

[@nikoscosmos]

Northstar or Argonaut was DC4 based, not DC6.

[@terencewong-lane4309]

The Northstar was technically a DC-4-sized DC-6 with Rolls-Royce Merlin engines......

[@nikoscosmos]

@@terencewong-lane4309 a bit of a mongrel!

[@viscount757]

@@terencewong-lane4309 Yes, it was a hybrid of the DC-4 and DC-6 with several DC-6 features. Also, North Star is two words, not Northstar.

[@samuel_excels]

Once again poor management and politics sets back an industry.

[@s.kirtivasen15699]

Hi.

[@barrydysert2974]

AVRO is indeed a sad tail

[@georgebarnes8163]

Yep, both of them.

[@nikoscosmos]

Bombardier isn't what it used to be having sold off all aircraft lines except Global Express.

[@randyblu25]

Bombardier is gonna be in the history books by 2030, the direction they are going will bankrupt them

[@anthonyxuereb792]

How many occasions have there been when the undercarriage has failed, more than I have hair on my head. Is it that difficult to make it work 100 per cent of the time (99% won't do) knowing how important it is?

[@smorris12]

100% is readily achievable. But about a 100 times more expensive!

[@donaldstanfield8862]

@@smorris12 No doubt!

[@anthonyxuereb792]

@@smorris12 I just remembered, recently watching a video on a German WWII prototype aircraft, the makers gave it a FIXED under carriage whilst testing because they knew the potential of it failing, smart thinking.

[@CDBC]

I'm sorry to hear of your hair loss ...

[@anthonyxuereb792]

@@CDBC just call me Yul Brynner

[@ahmedahm1]

We need someone to bring back Canadian ingenuity ! This project AVRO was going to hurt Big American corp

[@gkjsooley]

Oh Cana-duh. We never miss a chance to shoot ourselves in the foot... P.S. "Howe" is pronounced the same as "how," as in "How you doin'?" Greetings from the G7's least world class/most boring capital.

[@TropicTrdr]

The nose and cockpit resembles a Lockheed Jetstar.

[@papaloongie]

I just discovered that C.D. Howe was American born!!

[@coreyandnathanielchartier3749]

Rolls-Royce torpedoes yet another project. They screwed Bristol, Saunders-Roe, Avro (CF102, CF105), Westland, and others, I suspect. CD Howe finally drove in the last nail in the coffin. This Jetliner could have made some money for AVRO. Same with the Orenda line of engines.

[@edshed6009]

These Motion documentaries are superb and the research incredibly thorough. Is Mr McVeigh an AI creation? The pronunciation of Howe as Ho is not English. It's more like a voice generation mistake. Perhaps the mysterious Mr McVeigh could include himself as a subject?

[@21stcenturybohemian]

Spoken like a true Canadian who has become dummied down by Americanisms. Howe, in the UK, is indeed pronounced "Hoe". Parts of Canada are infamous for mispronunciations, like in Peterborough, where one of the main roads with the Scottish name Monaghan, is locally mispronounced as Moniggan. I blame it on the Irish. And I am being serious. It seems only in places the Irish settled in numbers that you get stupid shit like two roads intersecting that have the same name, or two roads intersect another road, where each of the two roads have the same name with one being called a lane, and the other street, or a contiguous street has one name on the left of an intersection, and another name on the right. Its frikkin lunacy and it drives me crazy.

[@amniote69]

Um... Well... Only if UK pronunciation has changed significantly recently. I clearly remember Chancellor of the Exchequer Sir Geoffrey Howe being pronounced as "How".

[@an_asian_guy]

dam I never knew how the country I was born in made the second Jetliner

[@drewthompson7457]

Canada likes to keep quite about it's achievements. Have you heard of the HMCS Bras d'Or? It had to use an American engine, as Canada shut down jet engines along with Avro.

[@GreatPolishWingedHussars]

Too bad the Canadians don't produce jets anymore. In any case, in the 1950s they were they build first-class jets, not only in the civilian sector but also in the military sector, such as the fighter jets Avro CF-100 "Canuck" or CF-105 "Arrow".

[@Banglish123]

He even sketched in the chem trails

[@kiwitrainguy]

They were speed lines to make it look like it was going fast. zoom, zoom!

[@michaeloreilly657]

Did someone say, war is good for innovation?

[@21stcenturybohemian]

It is pronounced C. D. 'How' (the 'e' is silent), not Hoe. It is not so much bad management by government or industry... it was, and still is, American protectionism and corporate corruption that hurt(s) our industry. America has always been a country which government is "for business, by business", not people. As far as it is concerned, Canada is a wholly owned subsidiary.

[@jimsvideos7201]

Howe in this context rhymes with cow.

[@thomasburke7995]

Imagine. Steve jobs going to his boss .. look at this cool music player.. it's all digital. Thousands of songs to listen to. And no cassettes to carry. . That's quaint says the boss .. now go back to your cubicle and pour all your skills in to making our New phonograph smaller so it can play compact disks.. that is exactly what happened here.. a shorter sighted politically motivated leader only concerned with his own best interests..

[@BobbyGeneric145]

Who was Steve Jobs' boss?

[@kiwitrainguy]

The difference is that someone went to Steve Jobs with an idea for the iPod and he went ahead with it. The reverse of what happened with AVRO Canada. Maybe Steve actually thought of the iPod himself but it suits the comparison.

[@edletain385]

C. D. Howe's name is pronounced How, not Ho.

[@21stcenturybohemian]

Wrong. English comes from England, England is in the UK, and in the UK, Howe is pronounced Hoe.

[@drstevenrey]

I never understood the concept that an engine needs to be either civil or military. Both aircraft fleets fly over my personal head and none of the two has the habit of crashing and burning in my face. Hence, why on earth would I not be able to use a so called military engine in a civil aircraft. That is just plain stupid.

[@ralphbalfoort2909]

The Canadian government screwed Avro Canada at every turn, both the C-102 and the CF-105.

[@reinhardlehmann8161]

Great pity !

[@kevgermany]

Easy to look back and see how dumb guys at the top can be. Large companies destroy themselves this way. Air, transport, electronics, all have too many examples. Government interference usually makes things much worse. Thanks for the insight.

[@None-zc5vg]

The film-clip at 9.24 shows a mass-shooting of prisoners by a firing-squad of South Korean troops or police.

[@deltavee2]

So that's two politicians that get a good one in the ghoulies when I'm out of here... C.D. Howe for the 102 and John Diefenbaker for the 105 Arrow. All of our brilliant designers, indeed the entire industry moved south of the border where they could find work. Canadian aviation was dead and these two @#$%! are responsible, both of them undiscerning political animals of the worst stripe. And I'm sorry to the animals for insulting them.

Countries need to change the rules so that nobody can just decide to run for elected office without passing some kind of political and financial aptitude test and a miltary grade background check

[@hurri7720]

That was funny to claim the Gloster Meteor engine lacked power on purpose. That of course is not true, it was simply bad. It is also a bit funny to call the Meteor a fighter jet of WW2 as it never took part in any fights in WW2.

[@richardcovello5367]

I thought Meteors were used to shoot down V-1s. I understand your point that it wasn't used on the continent, but doesn't that qualify as combat?

[@hurri7720]

@@richardcovello5367 , I would think there has to be two to have a combat, but it really doesn't matter. The thing is that the British desperately try to claim the Meteor was something comparable to the ME262 in the war.

[@sandervanderkammen9230]

​@@richardcovello5367 The Gloster _"Meatbox"_ was the most effective British aircraft ever used against the RAF... Flying Coffin pilots were too busy just trying to keep the POS plane in the air, no chance it could survive in combat against any Luftwaffe planes.

[@kiwitrainguy]

The way I've heard it was that they used the Meteor toward the end of WW2 but only in UK skies as they didn't want the Germans to find out about this "new and innovative" aircraft.

[@ManuelGarcia-ww7gj]

Dirty pool played by the Americans.

[@sumedhapriyanka8164]

😅😅 even they not mention me262 jet fighter ... also stole the name Comet... why they not mention about 1944 ..😅😅

[@whtalt92]

I'll bite: because it has zero relevance to the subject.

[@nicolek4076]

"Howe" is pronounced "how", not "ho". What does neologism "competency" mean? Does it any nuance of meaning not already covered by the existing "competence"? Does "beating out" mean something different from the more succinct "beating"? Or are you inebriated by the exuberance of your own verbosity?

[@petermarsh5762]

Squandered a 10 year leap in technology. Toronto’s loss Seattle’s gain.