Axe Controversy: What Angle Should My Axe Be?

[@williefick]

Catching up on reading posts. So many! If you have an axe or two or three that just perform great without problems copy that bevel by making a bevel gauge of them using resin. You fill a breadpan with resin deep enough to cover the part you want to copy, put some oil on the axeblade and set it in the resin. Once its set you got yourself a gauge. I got two Arvikas. One's bevel is a copy of my Tuatahi Workaxe and the other a copy of my 2.25kg Basque.

[@940joey2]

Excellent video Kevin !! I love this topic and idea of this video. I too believe not everyone uses this edge measuring tool the same way, which can easily lead to misunderstanding. I use the gauge the way you use the gauge and somewhat explain my grid quite the same. I often think that people depending on how they were taught may describe their grinds differently, for example what is a primary and secondary bevel and what is not. I truly think this is an awesome video. I’m excited to hear, see, and learn everyone’s grind concept and how similar and different the all are !! Again awesome job Kevin I hope this gains a lot of traction, I’m excited to see where this will go 👍

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Something I’ve been thinking of. There’s so many factors to consider, but I do think some of the confusion is in the measuring.

[@Joey-L]

I don't own a gauge, but I can easily see from this video how it might be hard to get a definitive answer sometimes, especially when it seems to fall in between angles. When I am trying to reprofile an axe I typically try my best to replicate the angle / profile of an existing axe I have that works well for its intended purpose. On a side note, I really enjoy these conversations and I am always reminded how the non-axe enthusiast can easily think an axe is an axe is an axe.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

You definitely don’t need one of these gauges to make an axe chop. Just keep doing what you’re doing. This is just so that we can all communicate our experiences accurately.

[@vairboy]

Great video, love the axe science. Thanks for breaking out Mr. Cook! Do you have a jig setup to get those super shallow flat grinds? Would be fun to see it and learn to build on for ourselves.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Thanks, no I’ve never used a jig yet. Some I hand file and some I grind on the belt sander. But if you want a true flat grind, you are going to want to set up a jig. Might be something I work on soon.

[@Codi_Clapper]

Love this! I agree, people must be using this gauge differently. My understanding is that a perfectly flat bit would take up the entire width of the gauge, with the tip meeting the center of the circle. If I can’t get the tip to touch the circle at all, then I move up a few degrees and check again. There is definitely a distinction between a primary bevel and an included angle. Rather than telling people I have a 20 degree included angle, I tell them I have an 18 degree convex (referring to the primary bevel). I think this is where a lot of people are saying they have very thin grinds. The red axe that Owen customized is definitely not 15. Perhaps his primary bevel started at 15, but after convexing/adding a secondary bevel it became much stouter. Thanks for the show and tell! I really enjoyed seeing some of your collection. Made me realize that I nitpick too much lol. Nevertheless, I think that anyone who uses axes should have an angle gauge. I use mine all the time to check my progress as I file my axes. I think it helps bring some science to the madness once you get comfortable reading it.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Interesting, so then by that standard what I’m calling 17 is what you would call 20. There is definitely some confusion in the semantics, or a big difference in what we’re chopping because if I set up an axe at 15 degrees (or what I call 15) with no secondary it would fold first swing. With a substantial secondary, depending on the steel, they can hold up just fine.

[@Codi_Clapper]

@@KevinsDisobedience You’re close, allow me to clarify. I’m pretty certain we measure the same way. I call it how it is. If I measure a 17 flat after filing and then convex it over, I will tell people that it is a 17 with convex, even if it doesn’t fit all the way into the 17 gauge anymore. I like to refer to the primary bevel that I filed it to, but always address that I either microbeveled or convexed. However, some may consider this a 20 degree included angle, meaning that the rough combination of the primary and secondary bevels fit better into the 20 gauge. This is still right to me (when it is specified that it is an included angle), though I don’t describe my grinds this way. The only issue I see is when people say they have a 15 degree, when they actually mean 15 with a strong microbevel.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

That makes sense. Yeah, there’s a lot of confusion over semantics.

[@contemporaryprimitiveman3469]

Great video! Never owned a gauge but I have a GB hunters axe which comes with a very thin edge. I used to to skin and quarter a couple deer and it worked great for that and light chopping clearing brush etc. Then I thinned it even more to win a bet (shaved my face with it!) It easily rolled the edge on a small dead limb. I filed it then stoned to repair it to a convex edge still sharp. You sir, have motivated me to finally buy a gauge thanks.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

You definitely don’t need a gauge, but it’s a neat thing to have just to compare and talk to one another about these things.

[@mackgmoney1515]

Noob here! But just filed my first axe (biber canadian classic)a few days ago....rested the file on the eye method.....man what a difference in the bite of the axe. My humble opinion...file it till it feels right...then use the axe. Thank you for your videos!

[@KevinsDisobedience]

We’re all noobs compared to our ancestors. You go all the way down on the eye, or pick it up 1/4-1/2”? All the way down is pretty acute, but if you can get away with it, why not. Any micro or secondary?

[@mackgmoney1515]

Secondary bevel...kinda doubled the angle off the eye. Then tried to blend all the angles witb a king 250/1000 stone. So sorta convex/seconday bevel. But it works.

[@mackgmoney1515]

I put tape onthe eyeof the axe to reference ...used a 14in file. Rested the file on the tape then grind..tried not to file into duct tape. Filed until the grind was 1/16 ish from the edge...then secondary bevel...then stone.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Ahh, yeah that makes sense. That’s a great way to make a good convex edge.

[@MatthewAmsbaugh]

I’m certain a lot of us are using the bevel gauge differently. And to be honest, it can be tricky to figure out what your primary and secondary grind is with the pocket angle finders a lot of us use. Also I don’t like taking an axe sub 20 unless it’s a comp axe, and even then, I don’t like using them. I’ve damaged quite a few bits because the axe was ground to thin, or I didn’t have a stout enough secondary.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

For a general purpose hardwood axe, I stick to 20. For felling and limbing I like a much thinner axe with a secondary bevel. Hope you get a chance to do a response video at some point and share your experience and thoughts. I think Owen is going to do the same.

[@brettbrown9814]

Excellent video! I always found D Cook's explanations a bit confusing so I bought a gauge. In hindsight Kurt's giant one would have been better. I have found 20 degrees with a tiny micro to be a good starting point.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Yeah, I think some of the old timers were measuring differently. At some point I’m going to set up a proper cook axe. I know Lane gave it a shot, but in my opinion it wasn’t even close to cooks suggested geometry.

[@brettbrown9814]

@@KevinsDisobedience I also watched Lane's videos on the subject and wasn't entirely sure it got there. Take care.

[@BigOleFoots]

are those rawhide handle guards on the double bit and Basque axe? I tried to make one for one of my splitters but the stitching needs some work. any tips on how to make them? yours look great!

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Yes, they are goatskin. I have a couple videos on them. I don’t stitch the, for just the reason you mentioned. Just wood glue. Works great!

[@Codi_Clapper]

Good point about stouter grinds being less sticky. I can see an old timer getting frustrated as hell trying to unstick one of our “high-performance” 18 degree grinds 🤣. 17.5 convex is the thinnest I’ve gone without damage. I like all of my chopping axes at least 22.5 degrees. 25+ and I notice considerable drop in performance. I heard the notion that old timer used 25 for their felling bit as well. Honestly pretty hard to believe.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Yeah, I find 20 the sweet spot. I can’t believe they were using 25 degree felling axes. The pictures I’ve seen of vintage axes look pretty thin, and the oldest heads I own that have been ground are ground thinner than that. I think they were measuring differently.

[@ronkay1573]

Excellent video

[@ronkay1573]

What angle measuring device are you using?

[@jeffreyrubish347]

Mine are around 22.5 to 25. I haven't sustained damage and I'm gradually going thinner. I think how they chop can also depend on how far back a given angle goes.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

You can definitely go thinner than that, and technically the further back you go the angle should decrease.

[@timbertigox]

Very interesting video, I’ve always wondered how precise those gauges were. Looks to be quite a bit of room for interpretation, which as you alluded to, is not good in the grand scheme of things when it comes to comparing our grinds. I never used a bevel gauge like the one in the vid, but I have an angle finder and it seems to work well for the task. If you look up “multipurpose angle finder” you’ll see it (the yellow one). It measures in 1 deg increments and at different points such as 1/2” and 1/16” from the edge (as shown at 1:30). When I get to posting a vid sometime, I’ll show how I use it. Like the good ol slotted gauge, it still has trouble with convex edges, but perhaps it could be of some help with getting everyone on the same page? One more thing, I have my heart set on getting a Tuatahi China and experimenting with it as a work axe; my plan was to do a 1/4” 20 deg chisel with a 1/32” 35 deg micro, but after seeing your 15 deg double I’m reconsidering, as that’s quite an interesting grind! I’d like to ask, how does it chop compared to maybe a 20 deg with a shorter secondary? How big is the secondary and can it withstand knots? Would love to test it on a China when I get the chance, but I have no idea how a 6lb head would react to that shallow of a primary even with that substantial secondary. The finest edge I’ve heard being used with that head for work was about 18 deg, but maybe it could be made finer with that a big enough secondary. Just some thoughts.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

I wouldn’t go below 18 with that China, and you definitely need a micro bevel with them too. I’ve seen them take on lots of damage. 19-20 is spot on for most work axes. That 15 double is strictly for felling and limbing. I find it’s a delicate dance between grind and bevel. When the secondary angle gets too big, you start to loose the gains you get from the acute grind, but if the grind is really keen (like 15) it almost doesn’t matter about the size or angle of the secondary bevel. You’re basically cutting with pure geometry at that point. Every axe is different, and every tree is different, right? It’s just like sharpening chains on power saws. You have to play around and find out what works the best for you, and decide how often you want to resharpen. Really zippy chains, for instance, dull quicker, but then they cut faster too. You can see the delicate balance we’re all trying to find when sharpening. Hope that helps.

[@timbertigox]

@@KevinsDisobedience Yes that makes prefect sense. The more experience that I gain, the more I find that there is no such thing as a wonder/miracle grind; if there was, surely everyone would be using it huh. I often wonder how fine the edge will be on future axes made with stronger materials. It would be incredible to see a sub 15 work axe that could withstand knots 😲 Anyways, thanks for the input and merry Christmas!

[@ronkay1573]

Most race axes are probably setup for softwood. I’m guessing there would be different angles needed for softwood vs hardwood. I only use mine in hardwood, with a secondary angle, but was wondering what the pros use in blade angles.

[@samzeng159]

I think the thinnest axe I had was a HB agdor at 14 deg (Using the ochsenkofp gauge) but was just a bit fragile. Now it sits at 17 deg. All my other chopping axes sit at 20 deg. My vintage cannot hold a 20 that well, they need a fairly thick secondary bevel, like 1/16-1/8" wide. Cheers

[@KevinsDisobedience]

I like a 1/16-1/8” secondary. I can get away with a more acute grind, and it makes it easier to maintain over time.

[@cosmicbilly]

Also i love this type of discussion content! Hope you're doing well brother.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Thanks brother

[@skaagkaal2613]

I eyeball all of my edges and I freehand sharpen everything. No gauge no measurements. In my experience I just use the tool and access the cutting performance. Unfortunately that means that a lot of my stuff is modified. But that means if I'm not happy with the cutting performance that will mean I'll be filing, grinding, or using abrasive methods. I've only found that very fine edges that apex from the grind to the edge are prone to damage no matter the steel or heat treat. And a little bit of convexing or a secondary bevel will be needed to keep the edge strong.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Pretty much the same thing over here. I only bought a gauge to try and communicate to others.

[@Reading-yc7zj]

I'm totally new at this & know nothing, but I'm in the middle of restoring a Kelley Registered Axe that I found in the woods a couple of weeks ago & need to figure out how to fix the edge, so it's important to me. I noticed that you & all the other posts I've seen on sharpening an axe try to get a perfectly flat grind at whatever angle, but both the USFS (An Axe to Grind) & the UN (Basic Wood Harvesting Technology) publications have gauges that produce a convex profile, which is telling me a different story. I'd be interested to hear your & the other folk's take on this. BTW - those publications want you to print a copy & make your own metal gauge from that. I might do that, but looked for a commercially produced gauge with that profile & was not successful. BTW#2 - My Kelley, just eyeballing it, seems to already have a curved profile similar to those USFS/UN gauges although the edge needs major work! Thanks for the videos - they are great - keep them coming - Tom

[@KevinsDisobedience]

So it depends on what you’re going to use it for. Convex edges are more robust and good for all around work in all woods. But if you’re going to chop with it, you want to make it pretty thin and flat. If you’re filing by hand the grind with have some convexity to it no matter what you do. I have a few other vids on this topic if you check out my channel. Either way, just give it a try and it’ll be fine no matter what you do. Can’t really mess it up so bad it can’t be fixed. Cheers

[@Reading-yc7zj]

@@KevinsDisobedience Thanks Kevin - I'm really enjoying watching your videos - Tom

[@cosmicbilly]

Hey bro! would you ever consider making a video talking about the differences between straight bit axes vs curved bit axes? I know it has something to do with one performing better in hard woods and the other in softer woods, but ive never seen an example of it before. And every time i try to search for any videos that talk about it, the only things that pop up are: curved vs straight handles. 🤦‍♂️lol! Just an idea. It would be really cool to hear your insight on it, and maybe demonstrate the differences between the two. Could make a really interesting video, or "axeperiment"

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Definitely! I have a video planned actually. Cook has strong opinions on it.

[@kurts64]

Finally got to watch this! Long day. One day I will grab that book! Most of mine I shoot for a 20 flat bevel (measured with either the monster EFA gauge or a folding ruler) taken to a zero edge/scandi/chisel/apex. This is mostly to give a baseline to check the steel. Then test it, if it takes damage I'll stone or file that out, then dress the bevel again, up to 22°, or down to 18°. If I do end up keeping some sort of micro or secondary, I like it as tiny as possible. Also, I'm convinced there's something goin on between the bevel angle and cheek angle, some magic ratio, I just haven't a clue what it is 🤣 edit: With the gauge, I want the whole bevel to touch the sides of the angle slot with the apex in the centre of the hole. For a convex, I use the pivoting ruler and want the cutting edge jammed up against the apex of the ruler

[@KevinsDisobedience]

So when you say the “apex in the center of the hole” do you mean actually touching the center of the circle, or just inside of it like I show?

[@kurts64]

@@KevinsDisobedience ideally hovering right in the centre of the hole

[@pascalstolz2901]

mine are all high convex 17 to 22 derees. I measure the very tip of the edge in the middle of the hole of the bevel gauge.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Yeah that’s what I’m aiming for as well, although I mostly keep mine flat these days. Or as flat as I can get them.

[@elemental4rce]

we use them pretty much the same way. I think it was another red modded axe i took to 15. That one's definitely at 20. It was originally a no name 4.5lb chinese dayton simon gave me. It's seen a LOT of heat lol/

[@KevinsDisobedience]

In any case, I love that red CT mod. Want to use them both some more. As soon as I get my knees sorted, I’ll get back out there for real and knock a bigger tree down again.

[@joemiller68]

I'm assuming you mean the included angle of the edge. There's so much confusion on knife and axe angles as far as what is intended. 12.5 degrees "per side" yields 25 degrees included. I just don't see the evidence that the average guy fully understands this.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Some folks measure it like that. In fact, I’m convinced that’s what the old timers meant when they suggested 25. But what most people mean nowadays in how Cook measures. See diagram.

[@rons3736]

Cook having "Strong Opinions"? Reading that gage is dependent on where the apex falls in that circle. Cook's angle finder looks more like one I use in miter cuts. I wonder how different gages like you show are from manufacturer to manufacturer. Then there are secondary bevels, toe, heal or centerline measurements being different... I'm no expert, just a monkey swinging a tool

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Precisely, so much room for misunderstanding. And I do wonder how these gauges are made and wether they are all consistent.

[@cosmicbilly]

I took my Montreal down super thin.. lol i was worried i took it too far. I was guessing it was gonna be close to 15 degrees or less. I just got a bevel gauge, and it turns out its between 17 to 17.5 degrees. I was i relieved lol And it chops amazingly for a 2.75lb head. Ive smashed through cold seasoned pine and fir knots that were hard like glass, and the edge is still perfectly fine and going strong. No rolls, no chips, nothing👍 However, i will not be taking it down any further. For me it's in the sweet spot. Lots of trial and error.

[@kurts64]

Gday Billy, interesting to hear about your Montreal. I first trialled mine at 18 chisel no micro, and it wrinkled the edge bad enough that I lost 3-4 mm of bit length after filing it out.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

With no secondary or micro? Perhaps it’s convexed some. You can also roll the edge some to make it a bit more stout. My experience has been a perfectly flat 20 is about all most steels can take. But if you can get away with it, you should.

[@cosmicbilly]

@@KevinsDisobedience it has a micro on it. And yeah it's convexed some. Its mostly a flat grind that i got from draw filing it. But it is slightly convexed from blending the bevels and touching it up over time. It was mostly an experiment, but i did 3 bevels. The main flat bevel, the secondary "micro" bevel and then a true micro bevel. They were all blended with a stone so its slightly convexed. But the main big bevel is pretty flat.

[@KevinsDisobedience]

That’s a good way to do a good convex edge. If you can easily see the “micro” bevel, I call it a secondary. There’s some confusion in the semantics as well. I have to get me that axe at some point here. Looks like a great cordwood axe.

[@cosmicbilly]

@@KevinsDisobedience yeah totally! Alot of micro bevels ive seen, i would consider to be a secondary bevel aswell. I used to do secondary bevels thinking they were micro bevels. Until i saw an axe with a true micro bevel, and it could barley be seen with the naked eye it was so small. But honestly its pretty hard to tell the difference between having a micro and not having one. I only seemed to notice a difference on my super thin profiles. I do think it helps with strength when you get down to sub 17 degrees. But im not sure lol it could be placebo🤷🏼‍♂️

[@MatthewAmsbaugh]

Second!

[@KillingerUSA]

First!

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Fastest thumbs in the West!