When cycling is 'normalized but marginalized'

[@Skip6235]

When talking about “normalized but marginalized”, that’s how I feel a lot of big cities in North America treat pedestrians. You go to any downtown, and there are lots and lots of people walking around, but yet we still get very short crosswalk signals, no pedestrian scrambles, driveways to parking garages every few hundred feet, and plenty of times when construction is allowed to fully block sidewalks or force pedestrians into the street.

[@fallenshallrise]

Great point. This is how I judge governments in power or who want to be in power - not by their words or what they put on their websites, but how they act - how they prioritize spaces when construction or some other activity is necessary. When a space for cars is going to be blocked they put up signs a month before, they do the work at night, they prepare detours. When they close a bike lane or sidewalk it happens with no notice and with no safe alternate route created, sometimes with 4 or 6 other lanes available that could be temporarily be turned into a safe pedestrian &/or bicycle space with a little effort.

[@MichaelSalo]

Even inside cities and places where pedestrians outnumber motorists, somehow we still end up marginalized. It's a bizarre phenomenon if you think about it.

[@atilladebbag7356]

I have often an impression of „real traffic“ vs „fun traffic on bikes or on foot“ when I see how traffic is regulated in Germany and probably in most countries outside of the Netherlands and maybe Denmark.

[@Josukegaming]

yeah it's technically possible, but it's insane that cars are still treated as first priority even in the densest part of the city

[@Svobodastical]

Basically Brazilian big cities

[@pretty_okay]

As a german I really strongly agree with everything said in this video or maybe even go a bit further: Cycling in germany in many ways is a normal and even relatively popular mode of transport not because but mostly in spite of the infrastructure. In a way its actually very comparable to the german train infrastructure: its there (mostly) and its usable (mostly) and therefore a decent chunk of people use it. But when you compare either bike or transit/train infrastructure to car infrastructure in any meaningful way, they lose the comparison every time.

[@karlkoehler341]

Trains have become better. The RegionalExpress actually does go 160 km/h, and on a decent schedule, and with decent doors - the "Silberlinge" were OK and all but I always feared that I could not get a door open.

[@isawrooka4]

@@karlkoehler341German trains run on a relatively frequent schedule, that is never the complaint. Reliability (people mostly complain about ICE but S-Bahnen and REs have major issues in the lower rhine area as well) is the main issue that probably holds more people back from using the train. I should know, I don’t own a car and get screwed by the train constantly haha. But I still think people go a bit too far with their complaints.

[@pretty_okay]

Local train service is usually much better than long distance trains, even though there is also huge discrepancies between regions. But that's not really my point: as I said before the infrastructure and service level is comparatively decent, just as there are an okay amount of bike lanes in many cities. The point is that the level of investment and quality of service both for trains/transit as well as bikes are a joke compared to cars. And that's universally true in Germany no matter which city you look at.

[@beyondEV]

Would argue, that over here in Switzerland, Public Transport does get center stage, ever since the public vote to invest in the railroad and not the highway's. Innercity the E-Bike is King, it's fastest (most swiss cities do have grades, being able to maintain speed up a grade is really only possible with support). One of the main problems is: The smaller Swiss cities don't have much in terms of big multilane roads, wide Sidewalks, where you can easily add bike infrastructure. And basically closing down roads completely, is a harder task, then limit the lanes / width of the lane for cars. Services still need to be able to get around. But my city is gonna remove most of the cheap public parking. Actual proven Service Vehicles can get a park "everywhere where it's not a danger and not to much impeding traffic" permit. So they will still be able to do their job. While private car use is likely to decline somewhat. One Problem is: City dwellers have less and less cars, which means private parking structures for apartments are now longer full. And they will happily rent to people which commute by car to the city.

[@hypatian9093]

Exactly - most of us use our bike for everyday things not because of the infrastructure, but in spite of it (or in spite of the lack of it...)

[@zappenduster7]

This hit the nail on the head. Cycling in Germany is treated stepmotherly. Most apparent at construction sites/road work and detours but easy to find throughout the infrastructure.

[@joelv4495]

Construction is when you really know how important you are. If a project just shuts off your entire path and "turn around" is the only option, you're not the priority.

[@joelv4495]

Also winter weather. I'm in middle Tennessee and when the roads were snowplowed last month, the sidewalks were totally unusable.

[@prophetzarquon1922]

Here in Denver we just fine people for failing to shovel the public sidewalk on the front of their property (also, you're held liable if someone slips). Mysteriously, public schools & city-owned sidewalks are often left until it melts... Bike routes usually get the snow pushed _into_ them by the city's plows...

[@svr5423]

Construction inn Germany is nonexistent anyway. Roads are bad, and some villages don't even have fibre internet yet.

[@svr5423]

@@prophetzarquon1922 Problem is: Bicycle lanes in Germany are often constructed as part of the sidewalk instead of the road. Legally, it's of course a lane and not a sidewalk for pedestrians. So property owners don't have to clean them of snow, that's the responsibility of the city (this is one of the things the road taxes are used for). But the snow plough doesn't drive on the sidewalks and cyclists are apparently not contributing enough taxes for the cities to care.

[@vincenttayelrand]

Living on the Dutch German border much of the cycling structure is cross border. Which is wonderful for my shopping sprees in Germany and provides some excellent shortcuts from one point in the Netherlands to another. However you see how the German cycling infrastructure quickly deteriorates once you move further away from the Dutch border. Or alternatively when you exit some of the main urban centers in Germany bicycle paths simply end. Cars rule supreme in Germany - as you discovered there as well. That having said I do see a gradual change in favor of cyclists and pedestrians and importantly this is also happening in the smaller cash strapped German communities.

[@HolgerNestmann]

Also a lot of cycling infrastructure is build for leasure. Less to bring you to the shops or work place

[@3rdfriend]

As a German living a day trip with my bike away from your border, I really love how the Netherlands just feel SO relaxed. In Germany it is always a hassle, you gotta find out when and how your bike lane is gonna end and sometimes yous don't really have the chance to react. It is dangerous and I just hope one day we will take an example on your city design. Groetjes

[@vanCaldenborgh]

@@3rdfriend Having lived in both countries I overall strongly preferred living in Germany, but when it comes to bicycling infrastructure, yes, that is one thing The Netherlands is mostly good.

[@jjandorliadul]

Enschede - Gronau/Münster? :D

[@SomePotato]

I grew up in a town in the Münsterland. Cycling in town is pretty great and some surrounding towns and villages can be reached easily and safely. But still, way too often you'll find yourself on the main road in the middle of nowhere without any bike path and cars passing you at 100 km/h.

[@silvialand]

living in Berlin and riding my bike every day I can just say that the statements of Dirk Schneidemesser are really true. Cars are a religion here and a huge lobby. Right now a huge Higway is beeing built through Berlin. Things need to change. thank you!

[@timhabich3113]

I love my car :) My Bike are for fun

[@SomePotato]

@@timhabich3113 Good for you. Other people have different preferences and they have the right to reach their destination safely just as much as you do.

[@cooltwittertag]

​@@timhabich3113I hated my car, so I sold it.

[@Zappg_]

Seeing shifter randomly spawn in my city felt weird but your analysis is quite accurate to how we feel about our city design. Hamburg is a quite frustrating city and a great annecdote I'd like to share is the following: My dad recently got a new job and wanted to avoid driving by choosing a more ecological mode of travel, by driving he'd be commuting for 15 minutes per bus 70 minutes and by bike 35 minutes. He chose driving because of the bike commute not being comfortable enough for him. This is on the outskirts of the city but still dense enough to where car dependency isn't logical at all. My dad could've enjoyed a positive commute but because of the political decision to give personal car travel priority is back behind the wheel. The responsible authorities have caused immense harm to both the affordability of Hamburg, land use efficiency and the mental well being of most of my fellow Hamburgers while doing what they believed to be optimal and that saddens me.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Thanks for the context. I think there are many people all over the world who choose a car because the infrastructure makes it the best option. Infrastructure can also make cycling, transit or walking the best option if it's built that way.

[@kailahmann1823]

Did he try adjusting the route? From my experience a common mistake is to follow the same route as you did in a car. The "Veloroutes" however often don't follow the main roads (where you might only have the bare minimum), but are one block over.

[@Marcdddsnn]

Also Hamburger here. I think all the locations in the video are within a 10 minute bike ride of me. Another anecdote regarding normalized but marginalized: we had a pretty cold week with a lot of snow in January (probably not by Canadian standards but still). The roads (for cars) were cleared basically the same night the snow fell, but a lot of the sidewalks and bike paths were left icy and dangerous for days. I had to take a short trip days after, but even then it took me twice as long because it was so dangerous. All the while full speed vehicle traffic going past me on clear roads. Painted bike lanes were used as dumping space for snow slush and grit.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

​@Marcdddsnn yep that's SO out of date........

[@dudeonbike800]

Sorry to hear that. And unfortunately, electric cars will only reinforce this phenomenon. "The path to planet gridlock is paved with green intentions." © There's NOTHING "environmental" about a Tesla's 0-100 kph time of around 2 seconds. That's completely irresponsible. Most drivers have NO IDEA how a car works, how to operate it safely, vehicle dynamics, traction or anything else. All things a cyclist learns and masters in short order. Yet these Tesla drivers will be so busy patting themselves on their backs, they'll fail to see cyclists & pedestrians!

[@FitLovejoy]

This is so true. I live in Munich and I can send you pictures of where cycle paths suddenly just end without warning and dump you on the street, usually where it is most dangerous. I even have a cycle commute that takes me over a cycle path that is literally only 5 meters long. Legally, we have to get on the cycle path, then merge back into traffic. Of course no-one does this (I tried and gave up) and to expect motorists to respect the merge is insane. They will literally accelerate and brush past you (catching your clothing), just to be in front, despite the road being wide enough to give you space. The police will also fine you for the most minor infractions, but will completely ignore all the cars and vans parked on the cycle lanes. I can go on and on about lights, junctions, left turns and poles that disadvantage cyclists, not to mention the high level of road rage, where drivers will hunt you down and threaten to run you over if they are inconvenienced in any way.

[@clauchinaski]

Yet germans are madly respectful and aware towards pedestrians. Yeah I hate that bike lanes end suddenly, but i dont feel in danger on the street tbh. Try that in toronto, canadians are also nice, but you can feel how unaware and uneducated about driving safer for others.

[@karlkoehler341]

Agree so much. In Germany you have to use the bike-lane even when it's only 30 meters long on the other side of the road. Like they just want to get the cyclists out of the way. Nothing is thought through across municipal boundaries - if one side has a sidewalk and bikelane, the next town might have neither, use the "Landstraße" and immediately merge with cars going 80 km/h. And btw as a cyclist, you have to use that pedestrian underpass that the druggies use as shelter because your "path" continues on the other side. And people put up with it, it's normal. Hey, I'm not defending California here. We are allowed to cycle in the road, but we have not figured out how to do highway crossings. Our one long-promised bike/ped bridge over the highway - that is being widened for much money - has not started construction yet.

[@Exgrmbl]

@@karlkoehler341 you don't have to use it. Just don't use it if it is obviously contrary to common sense. Everything is cycling infrastructure if you are brave enough.

[@leDespicable]

My hometown has multiple of these stupid bike paths that just merge into roads for no apparent reason. There's an entire section along the main street through town where you for some reason have to merge onto the street and then merge back onto the pavement after 200 metres for no apparent reason. There's also a bike path that runs alongside the main street a bit outside the town centre, which the town built in the 2000s. It's only 300 metres long and then merges into the street again before a level crossing, so nobody actually uses it. Although that one is Deutsche Bahn's fault, the path is meant to get its own level crossing and connect to a sidewalk that starts shortly after the crossing, but so far DB has not built that crossing...it's been over 15 years since the path was built. They even modernised the main level crossing a few years back, yet still didn't add the additional crossing for the bike path. To quote them: "It just can't be done that quickly"...as if the path had been built yesterday.

[@pierrex3226]

The police fines CYCLISTS? Do they want everyone in cars?

[@egechicken]

On my way to my university in Bremen (1h away from Hamburg) there is a intersection. This intersection takes me 7 traffic lights (yes, 7!!!) to cross. And cars need 2. In germany all the traffic lights really are just designed for cars. Cars have longer green periods. The cars can go through 8 green lights in a row. This means that bikes have to wait at almost every traffic light. I have come to the point that i sometimes run red lights because the cars have longer green periods and its safe for me to cross even though it is red

[@niner8275]

Almost sounds like our Dehnhaide intersection in Hamburg. The only way to turn left without wasting 5-7 minutes is to just use the "wrong side" of the road.

[@TheWampam]

General problem with larger intersections is often, that you basically have to cross like a pedestrian, while you are also not allowed to choose the side of the street making you have to wait for an unneccesary ammount of traffic lights.

[@cbailey2376]

Grüne Welle.

[@greham]

Let's be honest (Berlin living here), Germans have an unhealthy relationship with cars.

[@LennartDoering]

@@greham agree. And as a cyclist in berlin it sucks at times (even though it got better). However turning around 60 years of indoctrination that the car is holy will not disappear over night. Many cities in germany are designed around cars. No humans were in mind when designing them just humans in cars. It will take a long time to transition and berlin is a good example how angry people get when you do it too fast or without good alternatives.

[@hobofan]

Uff, in Berlin the investment in cycling infrastructure in the past years might not be the best indicator of where we are heading. The transit senator of the now conservative administration had banger quotes such as "if as much as a single parking space has to give way for a bicycle lane project, that is enough to re-evaluate the project", and one of the big platforms they ran on during the election is prioritizing cars above other transit again. Luckily most bicycle lane projects that were underway still seem to be finishing, but I'm not too optimistic about anything that's currently in the planing phase.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

It's disheartening to see this kind of political rhetoric still happening in so many places when it's so clear that bike and pedestrian infrastructure benefits everyone, including drivers.

[@kailahmann1823]

also the construction in Berlin feels unorganized and chaotic to me. Hamburg has their "Velorouten" and I know similar concepts from Hannover, Lüneburg, Kiel and Bremen (the last using another word I think…), but was unable to find something like this for Berlin. Berlin seams to only thing "per street", which is good long term, but creates a lot of opposition from car drivers without really reducing car traffic.

[@hobofan]

@@kailahmann1823 They don't publicize it along the built routes, but if you search for "Radschnellverbindungen" you can find planed routes along the main axis of the city (and quite detailed and understandable planning documents).

[@kailahmann1823]

@@hobofanthose 100 km can't be all?

[@morkallearns781]

I mean it makes sense... conservatives only exist to support corporate interests, Germany has several major automobile companies.

[@Herodude60]

'Normalized, but marginalized' is such a great way to describe this phenomenon. While cycling is treated as a normal way to get around, it's not given the attention it deserves. I really wish I could cycle more, but the conditions of my city don't really allow for it (disconnected network, bad winter maintenance etc.)

[@Darkness251]

Yes! Especially, winter maintenance. The roads are perfectly plowed and salted, but where does the snow go? On the sidewalk/bike path. Great...

[@inund8]

"The indicator species of cycling" I really love that you've coined this phrase. You need to do a video in the style of a wildlife documentary, with a David Attenborough sound alike/impression!

[@steemlenn8797]

With flirt rituals and fights over hte best spot at the traffic lights...

[@Korina42]

He can also borrow a term from Bike Snob NYC, "shoaling"; it's when a bike rider stops at a stop light, then the next one stops a little ahead of her, and the next one a little ahead of him... 😊

[@tedsteiner]

That was such a sick line im happy others noticed it too haha

[@inund8]

@@tedsteiner He coined the phrase a while ago... Or maybe just his last video? Idk I feel he's been saying it for a while.

[@tedsteiner]

@@inund8 well that makes sense because this is the first video of his I'm watching lol

[@nmpls]

I'm not going to disagree with a lot, but regarding cycling clothing: Never, ever underestimate a German's overwhelming desire to buy outdoor gear and use it whenever they can possibility justify. Bonus if it is Jack Wolfskin.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

As a Canadian, I feel this. We love outdoor gear too.

[@craesh]

Jack Wolfskin... Well, we can do better than that. If you want to buy *sustainable* outdoor gear, you buy Vaude 😉 Disclaimer: Me having over a dozen Vaude products. This is not an advert, though 😊

[@reinhard8053]

And we like to play it safe. Wearing reflective material is just safer as we don't have seperate bike lanes everywhere. And the weather changes quickly. So an outdoor clothing often is better. I nearly always wear anoraks with hood just in case.

[@angelah2083]

As a Londoner where, despite some increases in cycle routes in the centre, cyclists are HATED, I have to say I was really impressed when I hired a bike in Leipzig 4 or 5 years ago - even the roundabouts had special well thought-out cycle lanes - so be grateful for what you have in Germany!

[@AurelAvramescu]

Taking into account the amount of taxes I pay, I expect more investment in cycle lanes and train infrastructure, instead they are extending a city highway in Berlin, which brings only disadvantages and is much more expensive than cycle lanes and public transit projects.

[@HolgerNestmann]

Very cool, Leipzig is really good at cycling infrastructure. Couple of friends live there and I can take the train and bring my brompton and go anywhere nice and safe by bike

[@karlkoehler341]

I heard nice things about Leipzig too.. but Hamburg - where Shifter stands with the 5-lane road and the bike-lanes painted on the sidewalk - is much closer to what I experienced living over 20 years there in general. Ok, and I would probably not bike in London. Too many driveways.

[@dutchuncle2716]

You're marginalized, but somewhere else you're outright hated, so better be grateful?! I'm not sure that's the right attitude. Fight the steel cage oppressors! Don't be happy you have to merely kiss his boots instead eating them.

[@meetmobility]

This 'us and them' situation is developing here too but the road-rage level of face-off that happens in the UK (we're all too nice until we don't want to be) doesn't happen here in Bonn. I do let off steam now and again though! 🤯

[@patrickhanft]

Hello from Hamburg, I hope you had a great time here! I think, we are a great example, how being a rich city can destroy the intention to build good bicycle infrastructure. There are some phenomenal routes for biking here, much better than most of that what you have showed in the video with the B-roll footage. And to bike along these routes really does spark joy and excitement. So you know, there is some kind of awareness, how it could be done quite well. However, these routes are of course, what we in Germany call "lighthouse projects". So they are rare and they won't help you much in everyday commuting. What you showed is mostly a good Hamburg average. Too narrow, often too close to cars and too much paint instead of curbs. But it is usable. Still, there are many bike lanes in a far worse condition to what you showed. Even narrower and/or so much unevenness, it becomes dangerous to ride. Has it become better in the last 10 years? Certainly. But, if you look closer, nothing in this city happens against the will of the rich. And Hamburg is rich. And the rich love their cars here. Hamburg's cars are abnormally new, abnormally expensive and there is now way, you could take a lane away from any of the four-lane city "highways" here. In the end, even the best intentions by our Senator for traffic policy will not change much. Ok, maybe fewer "paint only" bikelanes than in the last 10 years. So we will have good bike infrastructure maybe in the year 2100. 😞

[@Wildcard71]

There are many examples of well thought but badly made.

[@louisschmidt1421]

@@Wildcard71 totally agree. Good example is Balindamm, next to the Alster. A very broad lane for bike - between the motor lane and parking lots .... There are also some cyclist traffic lights, which gives you more time to cross the street than the pedestrians. But ythe are difficult to see for car drivers, which often look on the pedestrians trafic light when turn right.

[@Wiz3k]

i used to commute to billstedt... to commute in Hamburgs suburbs you need a fully and 2 bar baloon tires to get some comfort. as soon as you get out of the fancy parts of town it gets really bad

[@brainrottedindividual]

i also live in hamburg and this post matches my experiences and views pretty well. i feel there is more effort towards making bike lanes look nice and safe, but they end up confusing and unsafe really. too much trust is put into cardrivers hands that they will even respect bikelanes, keep their distance, refrain from gnarly overtakes, etc... unless they actually end up producing an accident, disrespecting the traffic rights of cyclists is a crime without punishment, so barely any driver feels obliged to abide the rules. i always second guess drivers because i have to from experience. cycling in hamburg has me constantly blinking next to me, checking any cars to my side or behind, and actually trying to establish eye contact with the driver to be assured they know i'm there whenever possible. and even tho this type of hyperawareness is probably the right way to go when cycling in traffic generally, i find the experience to be super stressful. bike lanes should make me feel safe when i ride, but too often they just stress me out. sometimes i'd prefer just being on the street under the same rules like a car because those rules are established and understood.

[@lakrids-pibe]

"Trust is good, control is better." Ha! People say that in Denmark as well.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

This felt like a very German expression to me 🙃

[@fhg3869]

We (danes) have probably taken it from german. @@Shifter_Cycling

[@wolfgangweber9924]

it's neither German nor Danish. It's Vladimir Lenin's philosophy.

[@buninparadise9476]

@@wolfgangweber9924 Exactly it is a quote from Lenin Wikipedia article: ``Trust, but verify``

[@annekekramer3835]

It's much older than Putin, luckily. It's a Dutch saying too. No idea how old it is.

[@Metagross31]

Finally a video, that describes the urban situation in many places in Germany very well! I am living in Germany myself and do almost all my trips by bike and I can really relate to what you said about biking being normalized but marginalized. The best example for this in my opinion is the abundance of bicycle gutters, which kind of signal "here, you get your own piece of road, but it's the worst part of the road lol"

[@silvialand]

... not to mention how systematically they don't clean just the cyclists portion of the roads when it snows or leaves fall in autumn. meeh

[@johnjones3813]

You guys have it better than most of US and Canada. Far better, actually.

[@Metagross31]

​@@johnjones3813I know. Whenever I see how cities work in say the Netherlands, Germany seems really bad in comparison, but when I then see NA cities, I see that it could still be way worse.

[@migrantfamily]

My read on the hi-viz thing is that Hamburg has unpredictable weather, so you but outer-layer clothes that will work in any weather condition you might reasonably encounter. And if you’re buying a jacket to wear while commuting by bike, a lot of them are going to be hi-viz.

[@davidsaxby5400]

Also, surely it’s just common sense to make yourself as visible as possible when you will clearly come off worse in the sad event of a collision. Prevention is always better than cure

[@BartAnderson_writer]

It's so easy to slip on a bright yellow jacket before going out on your bike. Increases your odds and no downsides

[@readyplayer2]

As he said, it’s a visual indicator that people feel less comfortable biking and that they expect to mix with vehicle traffic. It’s a clue that the bike infrastructure needs some separation and improvement. I don’t know about you, but when I’m driving, I don’t tend to wear hi viz because I’m unlikely to need it. I’d much rather wear normal clothing while living my life, regardless of my mode of transportation.

[@BartAnderson_writer]

​@@readyplayer2for the 99% of the world outside the Netherlands, we don't need an indicator that it's dangerous out there! I live in a relatively bicycle-friendly area but I always wear high-viz. It increases the odds of being seen and avoiding being hit. You never know when a driver will be drunk, distracted or blinded by the sun. As the Germans expressed it, trust is good but control is better 🙂

[@wsams]

I've been hit by a cyclist and ended up in a 6 figure lawsuit. I wear high vis in all conditions, trail or road. ❤

[@chrstndtz8782]

I love that you took in an actual German researcher in your video! That's some high quality and therefore verified content. Thank you, great video.

[@dovahkiin2]

lmao

[@Chocolate-wb1bu]

High visibility clothes is more about getting noticed once it's dark outside, not just by cars but also by pedestrians and other cyclists, at least that's what i've learned as a kid. After all a lot of people ride home at night or go to work early morning, and sometimes through areas with poor lighting and visibility, so looking like a christmas tree is extremely useful on top of the usual front and backlight. Not to mention a lot of worker clothes are high visibility by default too, even outside of traffic. In other words it's also an indicator for proper safety education.

[@immeremma]

I wish I knew you were in Hamburg! The Canadians here would have been happy to welcome you! My biggest complaint about the velo routes here is there are no signs so it's really hard to navigate unless you know where you're going.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Yes, I found it difficult to find my way around on bike routes. I felt like once I got accustomed to the system, it might have helped, but it was tough as a visitor.

[@ChrisGotANewFace]

It's the same here in Berlin. Every district and local administration applies their own "innovative" concepts and some want to make it very very special and "safe", but that's why they often fail at to make it safe (best example is the terrible bike path in the Bergmannstraße). It requires a lot of brainwork to figure out where to ride (and especially were to look) at many intersections. Bike lane designs and pathways are just different everywhere. There are no generally accepted concepts or guidelines implemented. That's the biggest problem here in Berlin in my opinion, because the newly build bike infrastructure will be there for a while, so it should be done more thoughtfully. @@Shifter_Cycling

[@kailahmann1823]

@@Shifter_Cyclingusually the bike path is black (old) or red (new), but there are sections or whole towns, where the sidewalk is paved in red and they had to use another color. Hannover has black with red borders, which is sometimes copied by other cities. Even worse versions are just a (sometimes faded) line, but those are luckily getting rare. And shared bike+ped path are often only identified by the signs - which also makes them more dangerous around driveways.

[@patrickhanft]

The current signage really is catastrophic. However, the transport authority has promised to start with better signs this year. We have come a long way. The velo-routes project now is over 25 years old, but I think it is taken more seriously only in the last a few years. I do remember an argument against better signs only a few years ago by a politician, that they did not do signs on purpose to not cause irritation with car drivers. That really says, how deeply engraved these car privileges are within German culture. Very, very slowly the awareness for better bike infrastructure increases, probably as more and more politicians might have tried biking themselves or have experiences shared to them (one thing I really like about Hamburg is, that it's federal state's parliament still is conceptionally considered a part-time job, so its members are encouraged to stay grounded in society).

[@Korina42]

@@ChrisGotANewFace It's a shame they don't just copy and paste what Amsterdam has developed over the last 50 years. They made all the mistakes so the rest of us don't have to.

[@stephenringlee9739]

Having cycled in a number of German cities, I agree 100% with the notion that cycling is marginalized and is granted a part of the pedestrian space. In rural Germany, however, I've found that there is far more dedicated cycling infrastructure. Towns frequently have separate cycle paths, parallel to but apart from the country roads, connecting town centers. One can cycle from town to town without going on the road and we frequently see women cycling home from shopping on these paths. On our numerous cycling trips in Germany, we often cycle city to city on country paths and then, outside large city limits, take the S-Bahn into town precisely to avoid all the converted sidewalks, pedestrian paths and congestion. Unlike New York, Boston and other large cities in the US, there seems to be little interest in Germany in converting street lanes into dedicated, protected cycle lanes.

[@thehousecat93]

But but but all the car brains tell me rural people NEED cars!!! WHAT ABOUT THE RURAL PEOPLE??? they exclaim whenever alternative transport options are discussed.

[@HolgerNestmann]

Thats true you can easily get from town to town safely very often. People use it for leasure, less for transport

[@Volkbrecht]

@@thehousecat93 They are actually correct. Bicycling infrastructure is making good progress in the rural areas, but even if you like biking a lot, it's a major timesink, not really viable, especially when folks get older. To be precise here: what I mean is really rural, not the outskirts of some town with six figure inhabitant numbers. When you have to cycle 10 km to get your groceries because your village hasn't got a store and neither has the next one, when going to a doctor means timing your appointments with the bus that leaves every two hours in 15 min walking distance from your home, then a nice quiet cycle path doesn't really feel like a viable alternative. And I'm not making this shit up. Where population density is low, which is wide parts of eastern and northern Germany and parts of the deep south as well, either you have a car or you move to a place where not having one works. When I moved into the Heidelberg/Mannheim region about 10 years ago I was stunned by how nice the network of cycling paths was. You don't even need a map when you roughly know the names and relative locations of the three to four major cities in the area, everything is marked out and a lot of it is completely away from the roads. Plus the S-Bahn network is pretty dense, so if your bike breaks down or you overtax yourself on a long ride, no real problem either. But that's not everywhere.

[@thehousecat93]

@@Volkbrecht you know what else is a major time sink? Recovery from serious injury from getting hit by a car. That can be years of time sunk. Or death from getting hit by a car. That’s decades of time lost. But oh no, 30 minutes is definitely more important than an entire lifetime. The second drivers stop killing people, the second y’all can talk about how inconvenient not having a car is.

[@Volkbrecht]

@@thehousecat93 Not sure what you are trying to say, or how it relates to my comment. All I'm saying is that if people have a choice of wasting literal hours every week in travel time or getting a car, it's easy to see why they go with the car. I myself have not owned a car for the last 23 years, but then I do like cycling a lot. If I wouldn't, I'd probably regret the additional half hour my commute to work costs me each day, or how I have to go shopping more often because I cannot transport too much on the bike. If you want people to drive less, give them good alternatives first. Cycling isn't one of them when distances exceed about 5 km. For people not used to doing it, this is about the threshold were it turns into unwanted sport.

[@catrionatalbot]

A few weeks ago, I went to an event where the main street of an urban neighbourhood had ice sculptures all up and down the edges of the sidewalks on both sides of the street on raised beds that serve as planters in the warmer months. The street was not actually closed to traffic, but on that sunny Sunday afternoon the cars that came by were few and far between. The event, sponsored by the local downtown business commission, was clearly meeting its goals, as there were throngs of people strolling up and down the street to check out the sculptures, and popping into the many cafes and bakeries along the way. There were lineups at every location. There was lots of variety in the scuptures, but I immediately noticed that they were all faced towards the street. To view the sculptures you had to walk around the rased beds and onto the street, which was so ackward hardly anyone did. Even an event that was created specifically to draw people into the downtown to enjoy an exhibit and patronize local businesses, was at its heart car-centric. I did write the business commission about this at the time, but I never received a response. I’m curious to see if there will be any change to the arrangement of the sculptures next year.

[@gesa5187]

If you want to understand the Germans' complaints about their cycling infrastructure, then you have to go to the Netherlands. Cycling is simply fun there! The Netherlands has put so much sense and understanding into its cycling infrastructure. It's just great there! Unfortunately, Germany is miles away from that.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

I wonder if Germans have higher expectations of their cities because of their proximity to the great cycling cities of the Netherlands and Denmark. Hopefully, seeing the potential will translate into pressure to do better.

[@ichbrauchmehrkaffee5785]

@@Shifter_Cycling Well, as I can tell from my own experience of cycling in Aachen (very close to the dutch border), there are certain situations, where cycling can be life-threatening, due to things like: - really poor traffic management (Sometimes the Bus and bike lanes swap sides and it's poorly executed) - asshole drivers who view cyclists as second class road users and complain when I'm riding 10cm too far towards the middle of the road

[@unconventionalideas5683]

@@Shifter_CyclingFrom What I have heard, Germans also seem to have a mindset that if their nation finishes anywhere other than first, it is a national disgrace and their are lots of complaints that suddenly appear in the news about how Germany is a failing country and how it is incapable of doing anything right anymore whenever Germany doesn’t finish first in something. Of course, that’s a bit hyperbolic, but that is still probably a part of why Germans are unhappy with the state of bikeability of German Cities.

[@Volkbrecht]

@@Shifter_CyclingNo, it's not that. It's a common sense thing. It doesn't take a lot of brains to see that there is something wrong when you see places where one pedestrian and one cyclist already have a hard time passing each other. Or to feel intimidated when the cyclepath you are supposed to feel safe on is not much wider than your handlebar, and parted off from car traffic only by white lines.

[@laurao8025]

@@Shifter_Cycling As someone from Hamburg, I think you’re right about that. We’re more than a bit envious.

[@BigBlueMan118]

Nice to have you here Shifter - I've been living in Dresden for 5 years now, originally from Australia. I grew up in Sydney, went to Uni in Newcastle and lived a year in the countryside. I never considered cycling a form of transport really in Australia, I used to ride around sometimes for fun or go mountainbiking a little bit. But basically since I got here I have been cycling almost every day and I love it, its great and much better than it is in Australia.

[@melainekerfaou8418]

Isn't cycling in the former DDR a bit more normalize and a bit less marginalized? Those places weren't car centric until the reunification, so I suspect it shows.

[@felixlingelbach2758]

Shitty bikes on shitty roads, no bike infrastructure at all (as far as I can tell as western bike fan).

[@flosletsfails]

@@melainekerfaou8418 I lived in Dresden for 5 years, commuted almost every day and ride several thousand kilometres on my road bike around Dresden. As I have experienced, Dresden and Saxony is one of the worst places in Germany concerning bike lanes and cycling safety (ADFC statistics). The bike lanes network is not well organized, often too narrow and shared with pedestrians, end abruptly and the road condition is poor. If you drive out of the city centre, barely any cycling lanes exist or if, it's in such bad condition that it's unusable for road bikes. Maybe the city wasn't as car centric, but it developed into a car centric city and the development is still ongoing in many places (cycling lanes are getting smaller, while motor lines stay the same). I also wouldn't say it's normalized, or at least it's not accepted if you occupy space on the road. Riding on the road, even when there are no bike lanes available, is often dangerous because of motorists overtaking way too close or taking way, sometimes even to "educate" you to not ride there. I have been almost run over multiple times per year if I had not anticipated the faulty behaviour of motorists. For reference, Berlin and Munich are not perfect at all with its cycling infrastructure, but way better, especially if you're out of the city.

[@weppwebb2885]

I recently moved to the north of Germany and noticed a big difference in the number of people wearing high vis (sometimes even joggers) and helmets. I also noticed pedestrians stopping for red crosswalk signs on single lane side streets with no car in sight. While i put the first two on less light and therefore visibility during daytime, I now think that it is due to less of a pedestrian culture and more car oriented city design (that also explains car priority on a crossing that sees 3 cars and 50 pedestrians/cyclist each day). I live in Kiel, which has some amazing pedestrian spaces, but they all feel like islands between four lane roads and the number of parking spots in this city is truly ridiculous. We do have an amazing bus network and plans for a tram though.

[@weppwebb2885]

I should probably mention that I moved from southern germany. Main cities for comparison are Karlsruhe and Freiburg.

[@Sp4mMe]

Honestly, the high vis stuff has as much or more to do with Germans liking "functional clothing" as opposed to some conscious choice about safety or anything of that sort, I'd say. It's a bit like assuming that German weather is completely wild and unpredictable just because Germans often casually wear some sort of serious all-weather jackets while out for a Sunday walk ...

[@weppwebb2885]

@@Rubicola174 Yes, I also think it is something regional, which is why I noticed such a strong difference. But yeah north and south of Germany is probably to broad of a category for this. Still the difference in behaviour is clearly noticeable (and also street design! Pedestrians seem to get the same amount of red lights when crossing small side streets as the cars on the parallel road). This feels like treating pedestrians like cars and is a sign of more car orientation in my opinion.

[@SomePotato]

Yeah, the protestants like to follow the rules.

[@haisheauspforte1632]

​@@weppwebb2885hey, I also live in Kiel :) I think the city is actually doing an amazing job compared to so many other cities in Germany, but it can still be tough sometimes... I live at the edge of town, the bike network here is not too good, but the rest of the city is pretty decent! With the pedestrian spaces kind of the same, some streets are not very good, but the improvement of the last 20 years has been really noticeable. The city is far more bike and also wheelchair friendly than just a few years ago. Hope some more of the change comes to the eastern part of the city, there have been very good projects in Gaarden and Ellerbek (they've even won a pedestrian infrastructure price) but Elmschenhagen or Dietrichsdorf definitely need some love from planners and politicians. But I love how easy it is to bike or walk around the western part of the city, feels like they put a lot of thought into almost every intersection

[@OnisanT]

I used to live in Lüneburg, a town near Hamburg. There was a cycle path that was pretty typical for medium-sized German towns there. It was on the pedestrian level and as narrow as the ones you showed, along a busy commuter road on a hill. Additionally, tree roots had made it so bumpy that it became dangerous to use. At least it was not mandatory to use for most of the way. I always took the bicycle path when I went up the hill in the morning, because with my old bike was significantly slower than the cars. It wasn't comfortable, but better than being almost killed by overtaking cars. Going back down in the evening, I did not use the cycle path. I was going nearly as fast as the cars, and with that speed the uneven surface became dangerous. Quite often, cars overtook me much too close while honking or shouting that I should be using the bicycle path. At the end of the road was a traffic light, where the path got better going over a bridge, and I would overtake the cars again when they were waiting at the red light. It would've been funny, if it hadn't been so dangerous.

[@theresabu3000]

Yes - same experience as me, when biking in South Germany. There are some islands, where there's a lot of tourism or big Universities - so biking is prioritized more. But otherwise all public transport + bikes and any combination is almost made impossible. In Bavaria a lot of Regional Trains have a 1m step + ½ Meter to platform. Almost impossible for taking a bike, especially E-Bike. Almost as if the trains actively prohibit you from traveling with a bike. And no safe way to park your bicycle also. In Northern Germany it's much better in a lot of cities - as much more people do cycle. But still not as good as in Netherlands.

[@SchwSchw]

Another reason you are seeing so many cargo bikes on the street is because of the Jobrad company benefit that enables you to lease a bike with pre-tax earnings. I am not sure if this exists in other counties but it is a wonderful benefit to have

[@Volkbrecht]

Actually it isn't. My company offers that. But the package includes an insurance and service fees, so that over time just buying the bike from regular sources, maybe with a discount when you know the right time of year to get them, is the better option. It's the same like with cell phone contracts or really any form of leasing: when you have the cash available, it's usually cheaper to buy the thing.

[@SchwSchw]

@@Volkbrecht Does your assessment include service and insurance?

[@hyleslie]

Tell us more about how this works, please?

[@Volkbrecht]

@@SchwSchw Yes. the assumed service fees are a bit too high (not critically), especially when you take into account that seasoned cyclists can do most of the work themselves, so they'd only need to calculate online shopping prices for the spare parts. I had calculated that against my average annual commute volume, which is about 5000 km, so two annual check-ups with most consumable parts replaced. But where it gets problematic is the insurance. It only repays a fraction of the price of the stolen bike, which makes it redundant to the household insurance most people already have. I had crunched the numbers with a coworker, and we were both pretty certain that the insurance is how Jobrad actually earns its money.

[@SchwSchw]

@@Volkbrecht For our family, it helps to have the service. Changing a flat on a cargo bike is way beyond our area of expertise nor do we have the tools or space for bike repairs. And as far as it getting stolen, it is leased so they don’t pay you out for the bike, I believe they either replace it or you get a replacement bike. Which part of Germany are you in? It sounds like you have an intense commute.

[@stanzach25]

It's the same thing in Belgium, even worse actually: in Liège, authorities is often increasing bike infrastructures by mixing pedestrians and cyclists together without separation. Conflicts are common and increasing with the time but the politicians haven't shown any will to improve the situation.

[@stanzach25]

@vibratingstring The sport is well appreciate but using bike to commute is not that common in Wallonia, unfortunably.

[@Justdreamitaly]

It’s crazy how good the infrastructure is in Maastricht, just 30km away and yet in Liege they seem like a different universe entirely. The city’s liveability would thrive if they just followed their neighbor’s example.

[@shinook6667]

Having just moved to Germany from the US last summer, I love how much safer it is to bike around town here vs there. But.. yeah… when I see videos of really good bike cities like they have in The Netherlands, I’m jealous. Still… the little city I live is constantly improving their biking infrastructure, and the drivers have been almost all been generous with how they treat me on the roads. I only had one driver act aggressive towards me in the last 6 months. Lots of room for improvement, but I feel safe riding around town (even with my daughter riding on the back of my bike with me).

[@BigWhoopZH]

Never compare bike infrastructure to the Netherlands or public transportation to Switzerland. It will just make you depressed 😂

[@rkma]

I loved the way you left the original abstract "Trust/Control" saying hanging in the air until the very end, when it became clear that the entire substance of this episode was exactly about that. The essence of great teaching.

[@asambatyon]

Too bad you missed Munich, which I am found myself surprised how much it is putting their money were their mouth is on biking prioritization. Truth, still a lot of work to be done but some car lanes have been closed to give way to bikes, i.e. around Sendliger Tor or Giesinger Berg or widened like around Maximiliansplatz and Geisteig. Most of these places are still under construction, but it looks like very nice place to ride a bike. The city also had financial support to get cargo bikes (that's how we got ours) which has reduce our car use to basically zero. There are two other things to comment about it: 1. In my experience, almost all companies I have worked with have a shower in the office, so many people who commute by bike will travel with sporty clothes, shower in the office into their work garments. 2. I personally never used high visibility clothing, nor I remember seeing that many while I lived in Hamburg, but I would suggest it happened due to how dark the city is during this time of the year? 3. All those road bikes suddenly appeared after Covid, I am still amazed. The first months I even was careful whenever I saw one of those facy new bikes since usually was ridden by inexperience rider.

[@julians.2597]

but anywhere off those routes is fucking horrible, some routes from Pasing to Sendling have you waiting for 2-3 light cycles at every traffic light

[@ramirofarto4008]

Progress is being made steadily. We need to push for better infrastructure in Munich, but the last decade has been quite good for cycling: The modal split increased from around 10% to around 20% for cycling 💪🏽

[@kingbeam80ify]

Schneidemesser is a big Name in the field if Urbanism. Im glad he had time for a short Interview

[@FunLion]

In Berlin, you also have to be careful who you vote for in local elections. Most parties are very close to the car industry and actively slow down or even revert projects that improve bike infrastructure and safety measures. It can be quite frustrating, especially when you have a direct neighbour like the Netherlands where you can find a whole network of independent bike lanes.

[@podunkman2709]

Yep, north of Europe is a fantastic place to bike; rain, wind, snow, low temperature. Dutch ride bike not because they love it but because of money and poor car infrastructure. In Denmark the also love bikes because of... tremendous car tax. I make about 3000km on bike annualy. Recreation. But f. off to force me to ride bike in the middle of city, in the winter. I prefer motorcycle.

[@TackerTacker]

0:12 I would translate it differently, control is the literal translation but it is not about control it is about reviewing and validating. "Trust is good, validation is better" or "Trust is good, supervision is better" is a more accurate translation IMO.

[@anders6383]

I am an American and have lived and bike in several German cities. Konstanz, Stuttgart, Mannheim, and Munich, and I would agree with the normalized but marginalized statement. The biggest issue I had was how cycling routes could go from very clear and separate from cars to being randomly thrown to fast moving cars with no warning, and the only option to avoid it being to trek back a few kilometers. That being said most German cities have excellent bike infrastructure in general, and especially compared to US cities. My biggest gripe with German cities, especially ones like Munich and Stuttgart is the number of people who drive despite it being so easy to chose cycling or a mix of walking and public transportation.

[@kailahmann1823]

That "throwing into traffic" is one of those issues, where German traffic law sucks: In the Netherlands "no bike lane" is automatic 30 kph, which cities in Northern Germany often try to copy for the few streets where they don't have one - but you have to be creative, as the traffic law has strong restrictions on lowering the limit and "no bike lane" isn't one of them.

[@patrickhanft]

@@kailahmann1823 exactly, many cities would like to change a lot regarding speed limits. However the "liberal" German minister for traffic was opposed for quite a long time to provide these freedoms to the municipalities. And when he later agreed (it had actually been agreed on within the coalition) the federal states started to block the change of the road traffic regulations in the second chamber. The car is very mighty in this country.

[@kailahmann1823]

@@patrickhanft I've looked a bit deeper into this: Bavaria (which even avoids 30-zones for most parts) claimed there would be a conflict between climate protection and road safety, claiming that "slowing down traffic increases fuel consumption" (meaning "car traffic").

[@patrickhanft]

@@kailahmann1823 these people are joking, right? Sounds very much like an argument that might come from the same people that in other discussions usually try to convince me, that a Diesel engine had a 40% efficiency, because they are of course always driven with perfect, most efficient rotational speed. But these are the people that also don't understand, how higher speeds decrease lane capacity due to extra safety margins needed.

[@kailahmann1823]

@@patrickhanfttrust me, car nerds believe this shit and some even thing, that slower cars would be more dangerous - because they want to believe, that "drive as fast as you can" is the best option. Bavaria also doesn't build those slowdown-islands other states have at the entrance to a village and their bike lanes often zickzack between both sides, only to keep the cyclists of the road. A few month ago I remember a fatal crash with a cyclist "riding the sidewalk": There the mandatory bike lane began on the right, switched to the left after 150 m (without a crossing option) and back to the right after I thing not even 100 m (this time at least with a traffic light).

[@Darude453]

I live in Munich and have to admit that this is completely true. Since I work in the urban transportation sector (not specifically in bike planning but urban mobility in general) I get a lot of insights into the planning processes. And oh dear - we Germans are completely unable to push forward existing solutions that can be implemented quickly. It feels like there is the need of re-inventing the wheel at every new street. If we keep on this speed maybe we’ll have bikeable cities by 2100.

[@harenterberge2632]

the better translation of the German expression is: trust is good, checking or verifying is better

[@derekjolly3680]

I wonder if they primarily mean concerning government or it's entities or it's agents. I can see how control and trust in that context would make sense, especially historically.

[@craesh]

​@@derekjolly3680it's a general thing, nothing against anyone (or any entity) in particular. It's about distrust or limiting the risks. Having the vibes of "... fool me twice, shame on me".

[@derekjolly3680]

Yeah I get you.

[@Ashorisk]

@@derekjolly3680 its less about any specific group but that you cant be sure of something 100% if you not have checked it for yourself!

[@pompeymonkey3271]

I've been saying this for years, almost every time a new "cycle path" is opened here in the Southampton/Portsmouth conurbation (UK). New bus lanes also seem to receive the same 2nd class position in the road user hierarchy as pedestrians and cyclists. It's the private motorised transport that we should be marginalising!

[@1_mensch]

One of the biggest issues is the German economy. It heavily relates on the success of big car brands, like Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, etc. And because of that economic power, politicians often are deep in the pockets of the automotive industry. The people themselves are very torn. Many want better bike infrastructure, many want better car infrastructure. Even though the cyclists are having a big crowd behind them, they're still with little power.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Dirk mentioned this aspect during our conversation as well, but I wasn't able to include it in the final version. But it's great context and an important point. Thank you for raising it.

[@1_mensch]

@@Shifter_Cycling thank you, too. Your work is important.

[@olafscholz1852]

Everybody talks about German car industry with their thousands of workers who shall keep their jobs. But we dodn't have problems in "selling" our windmill (generator) and the photovoltaic indusry to China. We look at these industries and their importance using different metrics. @@1_mensch

[@flaisy5070]

What strikes me most in this video is (how much sense it makes to me, as a german, thank you) but also how LOUD the cars are ... it is incredibly stressfull to listen to the passing traffic. I've been cycling yesterday through the City of Stuttgart - and it downright infuriated me how literally NOWHERE the cyclist had any kind of priority treatment. Either I had to wait for the light to turn green along with the pedestrians or I was going through the Schloßpark where a lot of pedestrians are walking too. So i either couldn't go fast because I was endangering people walking or I had to wait for the stupid cars equipped with only one passenger to drive by for what felt like hours. This is literally one of the reasons many people decide to NOT take the bike. They don't arrive fast enough compared to car or Public Transport or are either the ones to endanger people or are actually in danger themselves. Even though it's a lot easier to cycle in Germany compared to Northern America, it's still not always fun or easy to do so in a country corrupted .... ehrm, run ... Erhm sponsored? ... by the automobile industry.

[@AgencyScum]

Yeh, we get a lot of that in Bristol, UK; bike lanes stuffed onto pedestrian paths and cyclists lives dependant on strips of fading paint. We also have the curious phenomenon of blended/miniaturised/camoflaged signage of bike lanes to help them " fit in " with the pretty architecture whilst the bright, screaming, chevronned road signs continue to mark the way for cars.

[@Dellvmnyam]

The similar is true for Eastern Europe: if the space is given to cyclists often times it's taken from pedestrians rather than from motor vehicles.

[@drheaddamage]

Same for any other infrastructure. Electric boxes? on the sidewalk. Traffic lights? on the sidewalk. Mailboxes? on the sidewalk.. the list goes on.

[@xWood4000]

I feel like Helsinki is like this too, especially in more central areas. They are also doing it with new infrastructure, removing a two-way bike path and painting the one way paths in the same plane as the car lanes. They are also adding more traffic lights and places where you have to cross the street for bikes

[@fhh4397]

The reason you're seeing a lot of hi-rez is because it's really hard to buy rain pants/jackets without hi-viz at most clothing stores in Germany. If you were there in summer, you would see much less hi-viz since people don't need to layer as much. Also, next time you're there, you should check out Hamburg's Green Network - it's a holdover from a garden-city inspired design from the late 19th/early 20th century that connects the whole city with hiking and biking paths through parks, canals, and other green spaces.

[@gingermany6223]

I used to live in Munich and it was actually really well designed for cyclist, I'd put it above other large German cities. The bike paths are generally better marked often with a different level vs street and ped sidewalks. There have been a a few projects to expand the ped area downtown and modal filtering is used extensively throughout the city. Add on top of that the great urban trail system along the Isar and in the parks and an extremely well designed transit system and you have all kinds of options to get around the city. Could more be done for cycling? Sure, but I would consider Munich as prioritizing the efficient movement of people through all options vs just prioritizing cycling.

[@andrijnovak6367]

Step 1 - Normalize cycling in your city and make it safe (Germany is somewhat done here) Step 2 - Prioritize cycling and discourage private motor vehicles (This is where Germany struggles right now...) A lot of people seem to think after Step 1 you are done. Especially north Americans. But the really great stuff shows after implementing Step 2.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

My instinct has always been that step 2 creates step 1. Germany surprised me in that the order has been reversed.

[@anders6383]

I would definitely agree with this assessment.

[@Kirschesaftmann]

@@Shifter_Cycling The thing is the politiians often have differing views on what counts as "safe." In Vienna the bike paths often leave you in uncomfortable situations and are not always particularly intuitive, or you often have paint on the ground which doesnt protect you against anything and doesnt look or feel safe. Too oftren it really isnt safe. The only way to get more people to cycle is to reduce the "barriers to entry" and make it as easy as posisble for everyone to cycle, and one of the biggest barriers is infrastructure that makes them feel safe. And prioritizing cycling often leads to making it safe and comfortable while at the same time discouraging car traffic. I recently started bike commuting, and my path to work is a dream! Its mostly nice wide grade seperated bike paths. But this is definately not normally the case here, and there are many times where I either take big detours so I can use bike paths intead of traffic dominated streets/painted bike lanes, or I use public transport. This is actually one of the reasons I bought a folding bike. I cant always be sure that theres is proper bike infrastructure to get where I need to go, and whenever its bad I can just take my bike in the bus, tram or metro.

[@blores95]

I feel like it's usually the other way around, it's more of a top-down approach than a bottoms-up. Some bottoms up places would be like beach areas (the best cycling areas in Los Angeles are the beach towns) or Tokyo, but even places where you'd think should prioritize walking and biking instead of cars can't make much progress if the top down approach only cares about cars (like Hawaii or Florida).

[@craesh]

​@@Shifter_Cyclingthe struggle is that lots of Germans love cycling, but there are others who hate them, because... they are considered a threat to their freedom of driving cars (I guess).

[@KJSvitko]

Bicycles make life and cities better. Healthy exercise and fossil fuels free transportation. Cities need to do more to encourage people to cycle short distances by making more safe, protected bike lanes and trails.

[@charlesgauthier3343]

Tout aménagement pour vélo n'est pas cyclable ; toute installation n'est pas sécuritaire pour l'utilisation du vélo. Trop souvent, l'aménagement (parfois mauvais) est plus une raison de retirer les vélos de la voie "publique". D'autant que les véhicules subissent un embonpoint rapide. Et vont de plus en plus vite, avec l'augmentation du réseau municipal de "stroad", sous prétexte de fluidité automobile. L'aménagement linéaire, pour les vélos, c'est pour donner une impression de sécurité aux usagers du vélo. Mais la plupart des accidents graves ou mortels se produisent dans les intersections (sauf l'emportièrage). Et malheureusement, ce n'est pas d'abord aux intersections que l'on améliore les conflits autos-vélos, tant visuels & physiques. Bravo pour vos réflexions sur le vélo-commuting. Ici, à la coopérative de vélo La Déraille de Sherbrooke, nous aimons échangé sur les divers sujets abordés par vos vidéos. Bonne continuité, et merci. Et excellente réflexion sur"normalized but marginalized".

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Merci pour le point de vue, et vous avez certainement raison de dire que les intersections sont les parties les plus dangereuses de la ville. Les réparer est aussi le plus difficile, c’est pourquoi, je pense, si peu de villes tentent de le faire. And please forgive my Google-translated French ☺️

[@steemlenn8797]

Thank you for giving your view! Unfortunately the car mentality is strong in Germany, as you can see from the downright hostile resistance to a speed limit on the autobahn. The reason is probably twofold: One, a huge amount of people earn their money directly or indirectly from the (fossil) car industry. You know the quote about understanding and salary. Also "conservatives" use the car as the unassailable fortress against everything that is "Green" (party) Second reason might be historical. We invented the car and during the Cold War, the West drank the American (car) Dream while for those people in the East a private car was something close to a mythical creature, with waiting times of ten years. (joke: "When the child was born the parents filled out the "Permission for accellerated delivery of a personal car", every GDR-citizen had at least two of them") Also we got an old FDP (so-called liberals, the rich people party) minister as the minister of transport (and one from them as finance minister), and he halved federal bike way budget while pressing the gas pedal down on new Autobahns. Always talking about saving money, but for this there are billions and billions available, no problem!

[@SchwSchw]

Another reason for not reducing the speed limits is all the people who have the job benefit of a company car that includes an unlimited gas card. If they had to pay for all the gas they were burning at that speed, it would be far less of an issue.

[@turboseize]

There is no need for a general speed limit on the Autobahn. Therefore there is a need for no general speed limit. Lowering the default speed limit withing built-up areas to 30km/h however would make a lot of sense, as would lowering country roads from 100 to 80 or maybe even 70. Reduced speed in built-up areas and on country roads would reduce fatalities and injuries drastically - most cyclists and pedestrians are killed in city traffic, and almost all fatalities and serious injuries suffered by car drivers happen on country roads. The Autobahn accounts only for a tiny fraction of traffic fatalities, and most of these are caused by trucks, which are limited to 80km/h. A general speed limit on the Autobahn won't have a statistically significant impact on traffic fatalities. The problem areas are country and city roads! 50km/h is much to fast for most in-city situations. Lowering city speeds would also greatly reduce the speed differential between cars and bikes, this reducing the "urge to overtake"/"Überholzwang", a psychological pathology that many car drivers suffer from. It would also increase car travel times outside of rush hour, making the bike more attractive relatively. (During rush hour, the bike usually is already faster, on distances up to 20km, but peoples decisionmaking will often be guided by their conception of ideal traffic, i.e. if they know that in theory the could get somewhere in 20 minutes by car or 45 by bike they are tempted to take the car, even though they should know that during the time of day when they actually drive it would be more likely than not take them 1 hour by car compared to the same 45min by bike.) There is some irrationality in decisionmaking (as well as lazyness), and reducing the attractiveness of "best case" car trip scenarios could help here.

[@SchwSchw]

@@turboseize Agree about lowering the speed limit in cities and rural areas. The problem with the autobahn is more of an issue of climate destruction as you burn more fuel the faster you drive.

[@turboseize]

@SchwSchw in the grand scheme of things, the additional fuel consumption is negligible. After all, you can only drive fast on a small percentage of the network and only during certain times of day. While a car going >200km/ can easily burn more than double the fuel that a car going 130 would, the overall savings are much less impressive. Because only a very small percentage of the distance driven is driven at high speed, the overall savings would be less than 0.02% of traffic related CO2-emissions. (The biggest levers to pull in the mobility/transport sector are 1st moving less freight by truck and more by rail and 2nd reducing commuter traffic in urban areas, i.e better public transit and better bike infrastructure.) And in a country that shuts down the world's safest fleet of nuclear reactors to burn more coal, any argumentation based on greenhouse gas emissions cannot be taken seriously anyways. ;-)

[@turboseize]

@doesnotcompute6078 Yes, but that need not translate to similar increases in fuel consumption. A petrol engine will be most efficient under high load (reduced pumping losses), which can compensate the additional energy requirements of higher speeds to a certain degree.

[@sagichdirdochnicht4653]

About the could get you killed thing... I'm from Augsburg in southern Germany and I see a similar ish picture here - and I nearly got killed - broke my skull ; or rather the car that hit me. Unlike most of my ride this part was nice and seperated. The lady didn't expect pedestrians or cyclists at 4:40 and she didn't watch out. She also didn't slow down before turning and didn't use her indication lights, so I had no idea she would turn right. And no, I can't expect a lot if money out of it. Normalized but marginalized. That describes it quite well.

[@fritzp9916]

Good observation about cycling in Germany. Though the "control" thing is a bit of a mistranslation. "Kontrolle" doesn't really mean "control", it means "checking". So "trusting other people is good, but it's better to also check".

[@petermolineus3905]

Maybe it's better translated as "Blind trust is ok, indepth review is better."

[@QwoaX]

"Normalized but marginalized" is a good way to describe one problem I have. Bike paths marked with a blue sign are mandatory to use. So, cycling infrastructure exists but since cyclists "have to" use it , it's often times in non-usable conditions and dangerous to use because you may be hidden behind parking cars and passengers leaving could snipe you with their doors. By making it mandatory to use, there is no incentive to provide high quality infrastructure that we want to use. I even got yelled at "there is a bike path" when it was not marked with a blue sign and even was in shoddy condition. Sometimes, even the cities forget how the blue signs work and sections (divided by intersections) are alternating between mandatory and non-mandatory or they put the signs 5 meters before the lane ends instead of where the next one beigns. I personally dgaf and use the lane I feel is safer/better for me. If a car honks at me, I block them and go slower. If I was to ever get a ticket for it, I'd fight it up to the (European) supreme court if it means I can get rid of the "Benutzungspflicht" alltogether.

[@Cyclingthecities-mt9gz]

Great video. I absolutely agree, as I live in one of the German cities as well. Specifically Nuremberg in Bavaria. There is a good infrastructure for cyclists, but not perfect and sometimes even not safe. But I hope it will improve during time.

[@Ender-Beats]

Living here in Germany (Munich) as an expat, I can tell you that German's love their sport gear, it is not that they feel unsafe, they (in general) like to dress up for the occasion with the best possible set up. They have perfect hiking gear, perfect skying gear, perfect running, biking, you name it. I don't see it as a bad thing, but it is quite common... and since it is sometimes affordable (and good quality) I adopted it as well. Specially since my work office is 15km away from home, so I definitely need to be comfortable and get showered/changed when I get to the office. It is quite common for many Germans to use their bikes as main mean of transportation, no matter the age or the gender, I think that it is wonderful... and although not always they pathways are perfect, the car drivers (usually) are very respectful and mindful of cyclists.

[@qazatqazah]

"Trust is good, control is better" is indeed a powerful and an internationally well known expression, but you're never going to guess where it comes from. This phrase was coined by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, when he founded Russia's new secret service in 1921. Thus, the phrase was originally in Russian, not in German.

[@Shifter_Cycling]

Did I just unknowingly quote Lenin 🤨

[@qazatqazah]

@@Shifter_Cycling I'm afraid you did. You're not the only one who used it without knowing its background, though: the phrase is usable (and used) in a host of different situations and fields. This underlines the importance of continuous study (or, in a more practical sense, looking things you're not sure about up on Google).

[@eljanrimsa5843]

The phrase in question is a Russian proverb which is usually translated as "Trust, but verify" in English. It is not clear whether Lenin is the source of this proverb, but it could well be. In German "Vertrauen ist gut, Kontrolle ist besser" is widely attributed to Lenin, but it's unclear where and when he should have said it. It's perhaps just a free translation of the proverb which fits the German way of thinking.

[@macproduktiv]

@@Shifter_Cycling You didn't directly quote Lenin, but you didn't get the translation of the proverb right either. In the German proverb “Vertrauen ist gut, Kontrolle ist besser.“ “Kontrolle” does not mean control as in power over a person or a thing. Instead, it means verification. The German proverb is often falsely attributed to Lenin because there is an almost identical Russian proverb “Trust, but verify.” which has an obscure origin, but is understood to be a paraphrase of postulates of similar wording raised by Lenin and Stalin.

[@BrendonChase_2015]

@@Shifter_Cycling My guess would be that "trust/verify", "Vertrauen/Kontrolle" are variations on a much older motto in Latin (widespread all over Europe): "Fide, sed cui vide". Cheers from Amsterdam.

[@Gerald_Hunker]

5:40 You pinpointed exactly what our everyday problems and conflicts are, here in Germany, even in a town like Oldenburg (Oldb), that frequently boasts itself as "bike city"! No more to say 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@wonjez3982]

As a 20km per day bike commuter in berlin i can 100% approve the video title without watching. Perfect observation Shifter! It's simliar all over germany, because law dictates what can be done, and that law (StVO) dates back to the beginning of motorism. Create a car centric majority and give them a law and you'll have longlasting culture that defies any logic. Fixed laws and many people that depend and call upon them despite changing times. But hey at least they secure road construction sites better than newly built, actual bike "lanes" now!

[@VictorLombardi]

As an American who moved to Hamburg last year, I can confirm everything you say. But you missed one important factor: the behavior of the cars. In the US (with the possible exception of certain cities) if I'm riding in a bike lane crossing an intersection and a car is turning right, I have the right of way but would be taking my life in my hands if I assumed that. In Hamburg, the cars always stop and look for bikes, and yield to the bikes. It's incredible, and very German: that's the rule, and they follow the rules.

[@HansWurst-s9g]

Great video! I live in Hamburg for over 10 years now and agree 100%. It is mostly "car first, everyone else second", but getting slowly better to be honest. I could still show you dozens of very bad, confusing and way too small and dangerous bike paths all over Hamburg :( Oh and by the way, in German a man from Hamburg is actually called "Hamburger" and woman "Hamburgerin" ;)

[@Bismvth]

Noticing some subtle but really welcomed improvements in cinematography and editing recently. The pacing and visuals just seem more controlled and pleasant to watch, really cool to see the growth!

[@johncrwarner]

Living in Germany in a medium sized city (population 350 000 plus a regional centre) I understand the problems Often the cyclists are lumped in with the pedestrians and roads have yet to be narrowed to enable bicycle traffic and give them space. I suspect that German bureaucracy and the traffic planning regulations need to be worked on to get results.

[@kailahmann1823]

Would be interesting to know, in which state that is? I'd bet on somewhere further south :)

[@johncrwarner]

@@kailahmann1823 It is NRW - and it is Bielefeld which "doesn't exist" hence why I didn't mention it. LOL

[@kailahmann1823]

@@johncrwarner ok, I was guessing even further south… but "bike lanes exist, but suck beyond usability" really sounds like NRW on second guess. And Bielefeld is one of the better ones… Ever tried survival biking in Duisburg?

[@johncrwarner]

@@kailahmann1823 I have balance problems so don't cycle - I would use a tricycle but live near a tram line so I use that and walk.

[@MetaphoricalMusic]

In the first clip, I was like, 'Isn't that Hamburg?' nice to see you there! love your content.

[@SchwSchw]

There are not just Germans living in Berlin and Hamburg. Both are international cities. As a cargo bike riding mama in Kreuzberg, I can attest there are areas of the city that are no go on our bikes. Even if there are bike lanes, they are simply too dangerous to use with or without children (Schloss Straße, for example). That said, I find being a pedestrian more unsafe in Berlin than a person who cycles because of the bikes and e-scooters tearing down our vast sidewalks. This is especially frustrating when there is a perfectly good bike lane going along the sidewalk but they use the sidewalk for passing. It is tough with toddlers

[@strohhut_tufi]

Just some inside from a female cyclist in hamburg. Your observation was absolutely right. The high visibility gear lots of us wear is because we do have to share the street with cars much more than we would like to. Even the newly constructed "velo route" has you mixing with cars all the time... it's very dangerous everyday. But giving up is just not an option.

[@zipfelchefchen6816]

Always great to see some Hamburgers!

[@HerrMeier007]

I live in Düsseldorf and I absolutely love my city. Especially because I never have to take the car. Most of the city center is fully pedestrianised and the Public Transit infrastructure is pretty great. What I like the most about it, is that it has rethought a lot of past bad decision, like Riverside Highways and has turned it into a completely pedestrianised zone. However, the lack of good bike infrastructure annoys me more and more as I’m getting more into urban planning. It is not terrible, if you drive by the river you can two hours with encountering a single car or traffic light, but for commuting in the city, it can be so dangerous. They are planning to build my proper bike paths slowly and again, since a lot of the city has underground tunnels instead of city centre roads, it is still much safer than in other cities. But this city could easily be one of the absolutely most liveable cities on the planet if it would only focus more on cycling infrastructure.

[@Heimbasteln]

While the bike infrastructure isnt yet the best over here, it is a good starting point and I see improvements every year, that doesnt mean that they couldnt go faster though.

[@kailahmann1823]

but having even more construction sides all at the same time?

[@pablolabarta5611]

A while ago, I was visiting a sustainability museum in Zaragoza, Spain. There was a touch screen on where you could make a test and depending on your answers, the "IA" suggested your ideal city. I answered in the most ecologically way I could, and the result was a city in Oregon USA...where you need a car to move everywhere, almost no urban transportation, with a lot of asfalt, lots of requirements in terms of materials and energy to make these widespread cities work. There is so much path to run to understand something close to sustainablity

[@kailahmann1823]

At first: Yep, they call themselves "Hamburger" and eat "hamburgers" (here the pronunciation of the "a" is relevant ;) And in some cases the food is also called "Rundstück". Hamburg (as many cities in Northern Germany) has been building bigger roads with bike lanes even well before the war. However these usually were the "1 Meter on the edge of the sidewalk" type, as the usual bikes barely made above 10 or 15 km/h well into the 1980s. Or better originally 1,5 Meter and now reduced with a safety buffer towards the car lanes. Today Hamburg spends around 40€ per capita (far more than Berlin and even more compared to the national average) on widening those and also on closing gaps. But that takes time and taking away space from cars creates a lot of backslash, when the roads don't feel overbuild to the car drivers.

[@kailahmann1823]

Also bike infrastructure is a regional thing both by the states and by individual cities. Because of this, there are no legal requirements to build anything and even the guidelines set the bar for "needed" very high. Also states in the northern states tend to build bike lanes to attract cyclists, while those in the south build them "to move cyclists out of the way of real traffic" (meaning cars), creating a lot of issues - including cyclists, who fight _against_ bike lanes (because they can't even imagine a good one).

[@kailahmann1823]

Another issue in Germany is the perceived road safety: Going by the actual numbers, German roads about as safe if not better compared to the Netherlands. But this isn't reflected in the media and especially not advocacy groups at all. Those constantly call for "safer roads", increasing the fear against cycling instead of promoting the joy of cycling. So many people think, our roads are absolute death traps and must be some of the most dangerous in the world - something, that really keeps the bike share a lot lower than it should be. :(

[@jasonarthurs3885]

Thanks for the video Tom. I've been cycle commuting in Victoria BC for the past 4 years. The majority of my commute feels similar to what you experienced in Germany - careless compromises in infrastructure, often to save money; meeting minimal safety thresholds; disincentivized, non-prioritization of active transport modes; open, unwarranted hostility from motorists.....and dog owners who fail to understand leash requirements, becoming unhinged when you politely remind them of their responsibility to public safety whilst sharing a trail. "Normalized but marginalized" encapsulates my experience.

[@ThomasCuvillier]

Honestly every city in Europe knows it doesn't reach Amsterdam level, that is what people have in mind when they talk cycling infrastructure. That is why people are being critical even if their cities are making great progress. The US meanwhile doesn't even recognize what good urbanism is....

[@raphaelcaceres9129]

France has mostly american urbanism

[@KBraggaducci]

Great video. Your quote "Trust is good, control is better" is a really good way of thinking about things, and applies really well to urban design among other things. I'm a Canadian living in France for about 13 years. People have what I think is a mistaken idea that European drivers are more "respectful" of cyclists. The reality is urban design in a lot of European cities make it much more difficult to do things like run stop signs, right-hooks etc. There is more "control" on how cars and bikes interact.

[@MrAlanCristhian]

This is an eye opener concept.

[@meditationMakesMeCranky]

Finally, this is exactly my experience. there are soo few people talking about the reality of cycling in Europe and how, although better than other places, it is still NOT GOOD. And It is not just bicycles, just walking on a street with so many cars and soo much noise its uncomfortable and gives an over all bad for pedestrians that are affected by the noise and have to breath though the car exhaust! Thanks for the great Video

[@razorblade1596]

100%

[@craesh]

Last week, a popular cyclist was killed while driving on a public road, hit by a car. There was a huge discussion about bike infrastructure and whether he should have taken the poorly maintained path through the woods instead (it was not a bike lane or anything similar). This cyclist highlighted the poor state of the bike infrastructure to the police (and others) for years, also filming the dangers of driving next to cars. He was ignored, now he is dead. That's marginalization. Here in Germany, cars are considered what firearms are for US Americans. People freek out when they drive a car and see a cyclist. It's very hard for most cities to improve the non-car Infrastructure, due to the shitstorms from car drivers. It's only a small fraction of the car drivers, but they form a huge lobby. Even here, in the city where both the car and the bicycle (sort of) were invented.

[@kailahmann1823]

worse: That path through the woods originally was a bike path, but basically abandoned instead of maintained. The whole southwest region basically has no bike lanes outside of cities - while some of their cities have very good bike infra (Freiburg, Konstanz, nearby Karlsruhe).

[@desert.mantis]

I love that: "Trust is good; control is better."

[@craesh]

The better translation is "supervising" or "checking is better". "Control" in the sense of "making sure it's done right"

[@fallenshallrise]

In the cluster of cities that is Vancouver "tolerated and marginalized" might better explain the feeling of riding in the city the further you venture from the downtown core. Being "normalized" would be a big step forward. Greater Vancouver has this good reputation because of it's proximity to the mountains but the actions of the city governments look very similar to what we see in this video. Bike space taken from walking space or because walking seems so abnormal or bikes thrown in a gutter that cars only swerve into occasionally. Normalized would at least accept that each person, no matter what mode they choose, has an equal chance of being on an important journey. In my city a person walking is seen as a "jay", a person with nowhere to be, wandering aimlessly. A cyclist is seen as doing it for exercise or recreation, they can do that any time or any where, why are they in the way where stores and jobs are? A person on a bus is just a student or unemployed, it doesn't really matter much if they are a bit late for school. A person driving is seen as an important person on a critical mission, they are probably a heart surgeon on their way to save a life or a lawyer who needs to make it to court on time. If you look at city planning this way the results suddenly make sense. Rant over. Thanks for letting me vent lol.

[@morthaug]

I am from Hamburg but now live in Kiel, here is a good mix of bike paths on the sidewalk, physical barriers in between cyclists and cars and a few Velo routes spanning the city whilst the majority of the car traffic is directed around the city via the Bundesstraße, there is also a app with which you can rent a bike where the first 30 minutes are free, which is more than enough to get from where you are to where you need to be

[@georgh.3041]

In German traffic laws the 'fluidity of traffic ' is still the main goal. This means, that every infrastructure improvement for cycling that could cause just a little bit of disturbance will be cancelled, even if local governments want to make better infrastructure (or setting lower speed limits etc). So they are building nice separated cycling paths that just end after several hundred meters, because otherwise it should have taken a lane from the cars (which objectively could mean an improvement the Netherlands show, but who wants to make h8s decisions on facts if there are the feelings of German car owners in danger, right?). For people like me, who want to see change that would build a better country for all, this is frustrating. I think, that's a reason for the frustration of German cyclists you observed. But I do notice there are countries with much worse cycling infrastructure than we have here in Germany 😊 Thanks for your visit and for sharing your findings.

[@turboseize]

Bikes ARE traffic, so this argument is sad and funny at the same time.

[@craesh]

Some Germans don't consider bikes as traffic. To be fair, in most cities you can still be faster by bike than by any other vehicle. But you have to fight a little bit for it. It's not because bikes have any privileges, but because cars suffer from being cars. They get stuck in traffic and there are not enough parking lots.

[@kailahmann1823]

@@craeshthere often are more than enough parking lots, but drivers far to often prefer the "illegal but free" option and then cry if they get a ticket.

[@georgh.3041]

@@turboseize You're right, but in the sense of the law traffic means motor vehicles.

[@TheWampam]

@@georgh.3041 Actually it also means bikes. But it still makes it increadibly easy to sue against new projects.

[@Jack-hz1ey]

Probably the best Shifter video so far

[@oceanrave3801]

Greetings from Hamburg :) Thanks for visiting our beautiful city. Cycling can be really frustrating and also dangerous in Hamburg, which is known for its aggressive car drivers and traffic jams. While there have been improvements to the cycling lanes, cars are still prioritized and the social climate between drivers and cyclists is unfortunately quite heated and tense. Germany is by economic tradition very much a country of car drivers. If the creation of new bike lanes means that eg parking spaces for cars have to be „sacrificed“, there is a huge outcry and car drivers feel that they are being treated poorly. There is a great reluctance to truly give priority to cycling. Oftentimes it feels like small concessions are made „for the climate“ but car drivers hate them. There are many conflicts in everyday cycling because everybody feels they do not have enough space. Each year we have deaths of cyclists who are run over by lorries, and because of inconvenient and unsafe directing of bike lanes at junctions. But I hope that more people will come round and that cyclists will be more safe. I love my bike!

[@patrickb6528]

As a German who regularly commutes by bike in and around the city of Cologne, I must say you got it exactly right. Of course you get more and more bike lanes even in bigger cities, but car traffic is always first. In smaller cities there are even more things to wonder about: bike lanes that just end in traffic without a warning, bike lanes within pedestrian areas and no separation other than a different brick colour like you saw in Hamburg, or no bike lanes at all. It's very interesting to see that in your outside perspective too.

[@SianaGearz]

Ahaha athletic and hi-viz clothing. That's just Germans. They're obsessed with outdoorswear and this sort of stuff. They gear up when going to a city park by foot which will take all of 3 minutes to walk there and another 2 to cross with not even a car in sight. It's more like... what if there's a sudden wind? What if it rains? Gotta be prepared. Another typical trait is that they like complaining more than any other kind of activity. I'm not German, but i have been living in Germany for 25 years now. And you, well, there's nothing more tourist than walking into a bike lane, that's just how it is. Second nature to the locals to not do that. And yes "Hamburger" is exactly right, it doesn't even sound wrong if you pronounce it German as opposed to American-English. Some cities are absolutaly hideous for cycling. I would like to single out Ingolstadt, it's absolutely horrible. It's also horrible for public transit, since buses are the only form of transit, they only run like every half an hour and they only cross at the central bus station which is of course well outside the city centre, so any transit ride no matter how short a distance takes a flat hour; bicycle paths and sidewalks begin and end abruptly, there's parts of the city where you have to take a 3km wide detour, others where you can cut across but it's alll underpasses. Cars don't fare much better, drivers are angry and pull all sorts of dangerous stunts on each other and on the cyclists, because they're in a hurry and there's congestion everywhere, widened roads run into bottlenecks between historic protected city walls and rich people's houses' private streets which refuse to be nudged. Like, once you reach a certain size or density, you are not going to have a good city for anyone without prioritising low-impact high-density transit modes.

[@kailahmann1823]

I guess, why Ingolstadt sucks so much… Even more, as Stuttgart and especially Wolfsburg have similar issues: All three are the home of major car companies.

[@SianaGearz]

@@kailahmann1823 Stuttgart isn't terrible, it's navigable, in comparison to Ingolstadt. I actually sort of liked the city from a couple short visits i had there. The problem in Ingolstadt and Wolfsburg is the single "taxpayer" which employs half the city's workforce, everything else exists just to support it. But since this taxpayer is major industry, it doesn't actually pay a lot of taxes relative to the amount of what it takes up in city resources, since major companies divert profit and do a lot of fancy accounting, they pick and choose where the money goes, and as little of it as possible goes where the leg work is being done. The outcome is effectively a really constrained municipal budget, making it unable to actually invest in the city. Furthermore when there are any city projects, the business strong arms things such that they're built in a way to make the business more profitable, not actually improve the lives of the people. The city can't go into debt to improve infrastructure improve attractiveness and induce growth, because half of that growth if it happens at all is going to go into the VW black hole which only makes the city poorer.

[@kailahmann1823]

@@SianaGearz yep, Stuttgart is a bit better, because it's not only cars - still driving is much more prevalent than in comparable cities. In this category Wolfsburg is the worst of the worst with the highest car usages of any place in Germany, even beating rural areas. But in these places "driving whenever possible" might even be a sense of local pride. And that tiny fraction, which doesn't drive, walks. cycling and transit combine (!) to not even 10% (average for this size should be around 30…).

[@SianaGearz]

@@kailahmann1823 I think the best features of Stuttgart are for one that it looks and feels like it's basically carved into the top of a mountain, even if it is more of just a hilly area, lakes and wineyards around the city, and the hybrid light rail network. And the surprisingly cheerful and talkative locals, doesn't even feel like Germany in this regard. Not the best managed city by far (S21 anyone) but the positives sort of help smooth out the impression that would otherwise be pretty dreary.

[@geoffreyhoney122]

Hmmm. This really got me thinking Tom! Thanks for this articulation! Like you, I believed that we just needed to get bicycling 'normalized ' but until we upend the power hierarchy to restore walking and cycling to primacy, we will continue to be marginalized. We need more than begrudgingly tollerated. We need our safety prioritized and designed into the roadway! i.e. control. It also disturbs me that North American 'privilege vehicles ' BMW, MERCEDES-BENZ, AUDI, PORCHE and VW all come from Germany! Should we be surprised that their government marginalizes bicycles?! Or their legal system marginalizes pedestrians and bicycle riders?! I don't think that I'll sell my German VSF FAHRADMANUFAKTUR S-300 LOW STEP NEXUS STEP THROUGH CITYBIKE any time soon. Hopefully they will be shamed by the Dutch? And Parisians?

[@jekker1000]

you pretty much nailed it. Just two things: First thing, the Berlin cycling infrastructure funding is from the past. Sadly hardliner conservatives that declared greens/progressives as the common enemy won the election and are not only cutting funding back but also actively reverse projects. The second thing, these cities always come up with these total bs numbers of, by 2030 we will have 90% public transit, walking and cycling and only 10% individual motor traffic.And all infrastructure they provide is some paint and increasing ticket prices for public transport. In my city they do the same bs and crown their selves cycling city by having the most amount of one-way streets with two way cycle traffic (so called "cycle streets" -> total bollocks!). While the easiest way to show they want to promote cycling / walking is to make them equal. Have equal long traffic light phases that you do not have to induce by pressing a button. If a motorist had to press a button for their light to become green they would throw a temper tantrum. Sorry, just venting

[@NickCombs]

The wording of the laws actually proves that ped & bike traffic is not normalized, since MVs are the assumed primary users. The citizens can't normalize something on their own if the city continues to keep contradicting infrastructure.

[@wizzelhoart]

we have this problem is Würzburg. It's not really easy for beginners to ride in the city. I understand changes take time, but the old roads weren't made wide enough for big buses, bikes, and pedestrians. I enjoy riding my bike to work but I'm almost hit by cars weekly

[@Shifter_Cycling]

It's funny, even here in my city, where most of the roads were built in the modern era and are absurdly wide, people say the roads are too narrow for bike lanes. But I think it's a question of priorities. If you want to accommodate bikes, space can be found. Stay tuned for an upcoming video on this topic.

[@leonhopfl573]

@@Shifter_Cycling as a fellow Würzburger, in our case the streets really are too narrow - some are barely wide enough for two cars to pass. Theres a lot of effort put into placebo bike lanes, but very little effort into actually creating safety for cyclists. Example: We have a lot of "10m bike lanes". Theyre not really 10m long, but they suddenly appear and then stop, so you might as well ride on the road the entire time. Or bike lines that are painted on the sides of the roads, but cars cannot respect those lanes and other cars passing because of space constraints. Sadly a lot of the city center is also still 50kmh restricted, and thus theres quite a lot of friction between drivers and cyclists.

[@wizzelhoart]

@Shifter_Cycling They paint dashed lines on the roads for bikes where the roads are narrow, but some of the planning has been less than optimal. I also drive when it's freezing out and it's also hard for me to keep aware of cyclists. Especially when turning

[@wizzelhoart]

@leonhopfl573 Also Nürnbergerstrasse where they made new bike paths was poorly designed. Next to the street are parking spots, THEN bike lanes...making a huge blind spot for motorists when they are trying to turn into the Jet Takstelle or A.T.U. I'd rather just bike on the street. And forget the Berliner Ring. Death trap

[@patrickhanft]

@@leonhopfl573 as someone who grew up in Würzburg (and lives in Hamburg now), I really need to disagree. Of course, Würzburg has more narrow streets. And yes, Würzburg has already started to reduce on-street-parking, but it is NOWHERE near what would be absolutely necessary for safer infrastructure. All natural examples of maybe "street too narrow" that come to my mind, could easily be solved by one of these measures: Remove on-street parking, reduce speed limit, convert to one-way street or remove car traffic (at least for non-residents) all together. Würzburg's streets have not been built for the car and despite the few expansions of pedestrian zones over the last 30 years, the number of parking spaces has increased and not decreased in the inner city in the same time, due to many more parking garages. Parking costs had stagnated over decades and I really don't understand, why anyone should be able to drive within the "Bischofshut" at all, except for deliveries and disabled. If a street is too narrow for two cars to pass, throw the cars out. I don't know many places, for which biking could be such a great default, than Würzburg with more foresight. Well, that is not exactly true. My father has a friend that works for the city doing some of the planning and they really try to incorporate the idea of the bicycle concept into their plans. But usually it's the conservative minds of the same city council members, that had voted for the bicycle concept a few years ago, that are now afraid, that there could be some fundamental changes, if they allow those plans to be implemented. I really hate this inflexibility of the minds in this society.

[@maxring837]

Hamburg reminds me of Melbourne Australia. I live in Perth where in the past 10 years we have seen a massive increase in infrastructure building and I am glad to say cycling paths are included in the plan. So much so there is a new bridge being built at huge expense for cyclists to by pass old narrow infrastructure. I know it's out of the way, but please come and visit some day.

[@_Dibbler_]

Hamburg built a complete new district (Hafen City) forgetting that bikes even exist. Being asked why, a politician answered that when the Hafen City was planned, no one could have known it would be important. It was planned in the late 1990s, early 2000s. So I hope Melbourne does better with the infrastructure planning than we do here....

[@paullaurent9771]

who use cars in hamburg city center ? the pmps !

[@kailahmann1823]

That's why Hamburg really has bike lanes: To allow the important traffic to pass those two-ton pimp-mobiles :)

[@Eowyn77]

Hi, great to see you in Hamburg! We have a green senator of transportation here in Hamburg, but there is only so much he can do. The greens are only the second strongest party here and the social-democratic party, with which they're governing the city in a coalition, is traditionally very car friendly.

[@kevinthiede1434]

most smaller german cities are better

[@klararohrl3305]

As a German from another town, I wholeheartedly agree with the analysis here. Cycling is common but you really are a 2nd or even 3rd class citizen on the roads. "Your" lane (which is often infringed upon by an ever growing number of SUVs) may end at any point. You are crammed on the side walk, having to give way at EVERY crossing 🤦‍♀, drivers often don't even know the rules (like that it's not allowed to stand on the bike lanes) 😒 There are improvements though. In Bonn it's already common that as a cyclist you may ride in both directions in one-way-streets for cars. Bonn has also started putting more and more signs up that cyclists may go over red lights if they are turning right (SO AWESOME, dirt cheap, no real costs to drivers... tell your city!!!! 😉)... And now even some measures are being taken that actually inconvenience drivers: streets are being closed, protected bike lanes that actually offer protection are starting to pop up... But it's a long way. And I think cities still don't really (want to?) understand that every car chips away at people's quality of life...

[@hubihub525]

The Germans complain about the train system where long distance trains and regional trains belongs to. But public transport in Citys is normally excluded. Especially in Hamburg the lightrail (U-Bahn) and busses are great.

[@nomex9829]

Lots of great points. In Germany, we've been discussing the prioritization of cars vs. bikes for the last 20 years and bikes vs. pedestrians for the last 10 years. None of the issues are new, and no magical solutions have been found. Building better cycling infrastructure requires taking space away from cars. People overwhelmingly do not want that for reasons that should not be dismissed out of hand. The problem is a deadlocked political situation, not a lack of information. Much of the car traffic comes from the less dense periphery of metropolitan areas, such as commuting and deliveries. Providing viable transport alternatives would be expensive and require cooperation between different administrative areas, often from different federal states. Municipalities around cities would be responsible for much of the initial and recurring costs without equally sharing the profit. Currently, building better bicycle infrastructure means worsening traffic for those using the car without providing a viable alternative. The result is your described situation: an optimization towards placating each party, not solving the transport problem.

[@countess_cassie]

Viewer from Berlin here. I love cycling and it's my second option after public transport (first if the weather is good). There are a lot of good routes to take here, but i've also done your "plus 1 minus 2" for my most used cycling route and the result wasn't great. Fully agree with the video.

[@ThibaultKreutzer]

If you get the chance, you should definitely visit Freiburg im Breisgau in South of Germany. I live there and if you just get the chance to observe the traffic at the 'Platz der Alten Synagoge' you will be amazed of how fluid it is. No pedestrian crossings, very few cars, a tram in the middle and lots of bikes on the side. There is in my opinion no better way to create a pleasant, safe and effective street in urban spaces. At the same time, it's surprisingly easy to implement. Bikes are not cars, they behave differently. What works for cars doesn't necessarily work for bikes. In this case, a simple design ('less is more') is the right approach.

[@ricferr2]

I visited Germany in May 2023 because I wanted to visit a country I'd never been to and where I could cycle hassle free. It was pretty much so! Berlin's infrastructure was quite bad, but I felt mostly all car drivers were cautious and respectful. I liked cycling there more than in Copenhagen (2012) for one main reason: freadom! I then cycled to Potsdam, and from there to Leipzig. Although not as confortable as in Berlin, it was still pretty decent. Even on a main road, with cars going at 100km/h, all but one didn't give full clearance when overtaking me! But I realize I'm an experienced cyclist from a country with a terrible record regarding road safety, and cities should be thought more for women on cargobikes!

[@hyleslie]

Great episode, and even greater point Tom. This is my concern for Edmonton - that even as we set a goal of normalizing bikes as transportation, we should be including the goal of de-privileging automotive transportation. See you at WCC!

[@sciking8756]

Since cars represent the vast majority of the vehicles even in quite bike friendly cities, I think that is merely a priority thing, since budgets are usually quite strict.

[@Saguache]

I found this to be very much the case in the south of France. Montpellier for instance often puts down bike infrastructure at the cost of pedestrian infrastructure. That said, it's still so much better than anywhere in the US.