Babylon 5 For the First Time | Crusade | War Zone

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.
Jeff and Brent have a burning question after watching War Zone: is this the best pilot episode of the 90's, or is it even a pilot episode at all??
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[@RCanadian]

The Techno-Mages went away, but they didn't say, "Beyond the Rim."

[@stevemartegani]

Glad you guys enjoy the Crusade pilot!!! I have a crazy story about Crusade and the pilot... Back in 1999 months before it came out, a VHS tape showed up on the early days of Ebay that turned out to be a pre-production copy shown to execs! I think it wound up in the trash and someone fished it out. In any case, my college roomate and I who were HUGE B5 (and DS9) fans at the time decided to bid on it. It started out at just a few dollars, but we got into a bidding war with at least one other person and by the time it ended, it was up to couple hundred dollars (got a "hot" rating for so many buds back when they did that) and we won! We were so excited to see the show before it was released! But as soon as the auction ended, we got a nasty email from Warner Brothers lawyers telling us we would be prosecuted! :O So we wound up not paying for the bid and got a negative point on my Ebay account that lasted for like a decade. The seller tried to list it again but it got pulled down in advance. I have no idea what happened with it and if anyone else got to see it, but man it was wild...

[@Slarty947]

Yeah, the techno mages never said they were going beyond the rim, just that they were going "away.". So they're off in hiding, and Galen is one of the only guys keeping tabs on the rest of the galaxy. Fortunately, there is a whole techno mage trilogy of books, so you can get your fix there also!

[@robertdendooven7258]

I think the Technomage Trilogy is the best of the three canon book trilogies out there.

[@jeffd.6498]

Gary Cole was in a short-lived series called American Gothic where he got to play a very creepy villain.

[@scroth0303]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers that show and his role in it!

[@ianstopher9111]

Someone's at the door...

[@voiceover2191]

Fantastic show! and of course he was great in Office Space, okay?

[@Petrosman]

He was also an antagonist in Suits, an old teacher and boss of Harvey Specter

[@Markus117d]

Midnight caller, Playing a radio show host..

[@waltermc3906]

The actress play two separate roles in Crusade & a Call to Arms... The producers decided to make the two character cousins in-universe. It is just like the C&C Tech played by Ed Wasser in the Gathering, who is defiantly not Mr. Mordon.

[@Chetverikov]

Matthew Gideon is probably my favorite sci-fi SHIP Captain of all time. An interesting bit of trivia, make of this what you will: A LOT of people swear up and down that Crusade was heavily inspired by the cult British show Blake's 7. So if you haven't seen Blake's 7 I suppose you shouldn't watch it until after you're done with Crusade, just in case! If you have, I'm curious to hear if you agree that it's similar. Finally, regarding the Techno-Mages, they only said they were leaving "known space", not going beyond the rim. The scale of known space is wildly inconsistent in Babylon 5 because Sci-Fi Writers (even JMS) Have No Sense Of Scale, but the general sense is that even if in some cases there are hyperspace routes that cross thousands of light years, that doesn't mean that all the space IN BETWEEN was mapped, or that ships have explored very far in any given direction outside the systems along those series of gates. I think you've mentioned gaming before, so for a sense of scale you might appreciate the space sim Elite Dangerous which takes place in a fairly detailed procedurally generated (and massively multiplayer) recreation of the Milky Way Galaxy. In Elite Dangerous, interstellar travel is actually much faster and easier than in the B5 universe, with most explorers able to jump up to 200+ Light Years at a time, and able to map entire star systems thoroughly in a matter of minutes. Mapping previously unexplored systems is in fact one of the early game money grinds for better ships and parts. ED's Milky Way has roughly 400 Billion Star Systems. In Ten Years of astrographic mapping efforts by a community of about 100,000 players (not all of them mapping all of the time of course), we've mapped out a bit under 85 Million Star Systems. Or about about 0.02% of the Galaxy, with a fleet of tens of thousands of explorers that can map a new star system every couple minutes... It's a BIG galaxy out there, and there's a LOT of room for the Techno Mages, lost alien civilizations, and much much more to be hiding.

[@ianstopher9111]

Vila: Nobody can open it! Avon: I thought you could open anything - that's always been one of your more modest claims.

[@mjbull5156]

With technomagic, JMS is just leaning heavily into Clarke's Third Law.

[@Nikioko]

All we have of Crusade is an incoherent fragment of a first season, just like Firefly. So, the correct order doesn't really matter. And it is a shame, because the expedition to find a cure for the Xindi doomsday device *beeeep* was very promising. And the composition of the party, ahem, crew reminds me very much of a role-playing game or the Fellowship of the Ring. Just to bring up another Tolkien reference.

[@hornorsilk2901]

Who do you trust? 65 answers available....

[@Psi105]

I think I'm looking forward to B5 Lost Takes more than Crusade. Not to say that Crusade doesn't have some good eps.

[@robertatkinson4968]

My wedding vows were the Who Are you, What do you want, and where you're going? We asked each other and our answers are framed in our living room to remind us.

[@andrewjames1190]

Very cool. What where the answers dare I ask?

[@charlesmaurer6214]

@@andrewjames1190 Think it better be something like "I am who that belongs to you, You and anywhere you are going." Otherwise that is a dangerous start. Noticed it didn't include who do you trust in the vows?

[@neilbiggs1353]

For me, Morishi is a character I wish had been played by a lesser known actor so they could have made repeated appearances in the first half of season 3 so we could have got a better sense of the relationships with Garibaldi and the NightWatch people.

[@paulholloway7666]

My idea of techno-magic is an homage to Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[@DIYTAO]

JMS knows clasics.

[@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984]

They do a lot to help explain Galen and this homage in the Techno-mage trilogy (which are no longer spoilers). Only one element is even semi-spoilerish and the series does not last long enough for it to matter. Much of Brett and Jeff's issues with Galen are explained. BTW, Peter Woodward is a great guy, but he naturally talks very much like that. A little more subtle, but when he greets you, you feel like you are about to be introduced at a ball.

[@Markus117d]

I never assumed the Technomages went beyond the rim.. somewhere along the way more got read into it in your thoughts..

[@hornorsilk2901]

Sadly, some episodes will show more TNT interference than others, and will explain why JMS was upset; but other episodes are quite good, and the overall story is one I like, especially after we can discuss the whole series and what was planned.

[@simongiles9749]

Gary Cole, not to be confused with Gary Coleman. Interesting, because i think what a lot of old school fans had a problem with was that it *wasn't* like B5, and I like your take that this is a good thing (as it should be). You will see definite JMS fingerprints as we go, but it feels different. Chen's music is at its best when he's just providing little grace notes to indicate mystery - his attempts at action scenes are not as good.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

About Marjean Holden, they recast the actor, it's not the same character at the helm that later became the ship's doctor. I'll assume JMS liked her work and hired her for a bigger part. LikeEd Wasser, that was a pit tech in C&C, only to become Mr. Morden.

[@hornorsilk2901]

JMS says he just assumes she played twins

[@hornorsilk2901]

Technomages said they were leaving, but it is much more complicated, as the Technomage books (outlined by JMS) explains. So many things in the first four seasons are connected to their story (especially Galen). Things this show would have explained, too. Like who created the Technomages, why Galen is at odd with most of them (but still cares for them), etc. You won't get all the answers here, but you might get some, so I will not say more.

[@DIYTAO]

Also, why on earth would Elric ever told Sinclair the whole truth of their travels? Would be really stupid to give such sensitive information away just like that.

[@reelgquan]

Loved the Tchnomage books, tons of great insight.

[@hornorsilk2901]

Yes, I like Crusade, and glad to see it when people get it, even though TNT was causing all kinds of problems with the show... making it less than it could have been

[@TheFireMonkey]

The gloves were as much a way to isolate the telepaths from the normals as anything - a part of how the corp kept control of their people.

[@nxsynjs]

Maybe instead of Whitestars for the messages, they should use Excalibur's to see how it delivers on the 5 core "Who.." questions.

[@ChristianEwald]

I like the idea!

[@lchigoKurosaki]

65!

[@NathanielMiller]

I guess you guys haven't been watching NCIS the last couple seasons. His character there is much closer to Gideon than Lumberg. I'll admit, I don't see the comparison from Gideon to Sinclair. Sinclair talked down the hostage taker; Gideon beat the mutiny leader to a pulp. The Techno-Mages never said they were going beyond the Rim, they just were going away to avoid the coming storm. Marjean Holden is the Ed Wasser of Crusade; playing a different character in the pilot movie vs the series. Not that Dr. Chambers is the baddie, mind... The idea was that B5 would be the Excalibur's "home port," where they go for resupply and meetings. The "helmeted Drakh" are supposed to be a different species. When they were blurry in B5, he called himself an "emissary." I think that the whole "who will you be?" thing was because they already lost their home on Z'Ha'Dum. They found a new identity, and they don't think Humans can do the same. 65

[@setremnevets]

Probably covered somewhere already. And this isn't really spoiler, just meta stuff. Office Space - Lumbergh - The class ring he wears - EarthForce Academy ring, which he also wears in this series.

[@la_scrittice_vita]

Everyone wanted to like/love techno-mages, but they never really worked. Some can admit it and some never will. Shocked, shocked I say to hear neither of you can process a female character except by identifying "tropes" and trying to evaluate if they are what your 2024 thought police approve. It's just effing sad.

[@christheBlindSocialist]

So this episode from these guys comes at a weird time for me. I am taking classes at Texas State, My major is Communication Studies. I am also in training to volunteer for an organization called SAFE Austin. It's a domestic/sexual abuse survivors advocacy organization in Austin, TX. It's part of a larger national SAFE Alliance. If anyone remembers Project SAFE Place in the '90s where you could find those yellow signs at places like fire stations that depicted a figure holding a baby showing you could leave your child there, that was these guys. In this one Brent talks about a line from the Drak. He retells his zip line story. It hit home for me. It did the last time I heard his story too. What has happened is that during my training with SAFE last week we did an excersize where we filled out a diagram about what we self identify as. For my communications class this week we are doing something very similar. One thing I definitely self identify as now is blind. I lost my vision four & a half years ago. I had already been dealing with self confidence issues. Imposter syndrome. Then I lose my sight. There are a lot of things I used to be able to do that I cannot any more. Some of it I got back with training. Some I learned to do in different ways than before. Other things are over for me. I am very much still trying to figure out who I am now.Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as telling myself nothing about me has changed. Not to say that wouldn't be true for Brent or anyone else. If Brent ever does meet somemisfortune, I hope he can hold on to that mindset. For myself, it's still a struggle.

[@Nikioko]

“Who are you?” is the Vorlons' question, “What do you want?” is the Shadows' question, and “Why are you here?” and “Where are you going?” are Lorien's questions.

[@IvarChoiEspedalen]

I had huge expectations when I heard they planned Crusade... And I remember how dissapointed I was when it was known it was only 13 episodes

[@mountainsofelysium7379]

I believe for the character of Bill Lumbergh Gary Ole used the prop ring he has in Crusade as he felt it would make his look like more of an A - hole He also referenced Office Space in his role on NCIS... so used the typecast to his characters advantage. Really enjoy his work in this and other roles, a really underrated actor

[@ChristianBoutin]

Broadcast order is the only order. I watch another reaction channel where she listened to episode in weird Internet order and she's often confused about why continuity is always broken

[@TynamM]

Other way around; the broadcast order has a lot of weird continuity issues and changes of character tone, while the ideal order fixes almost all of them.

[@ChristianBoutin]

@@TynamM Hard disagree. Even though they do weird gymnastic to restore some continuity to broadcast, it pales in comparison to placing the pilot in the middle of the season and have weird unexplained costume inversions.

[@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984]

(joking) "This episode is so bad, that I can only choose to put it in last place. I hope that future episodes are better so that it always remains in first place...." Wait...

[@mattlinfante]

The Doctor was in that awful Mortal Kombat 2 movie. She played one of those 4 armed creatures.

[@dll_Rhemuth948]

Everything about the technomages is pretty well covered in the technomage trilogy.

[@MarvinNoFun]

Sarah Chambers was not in A Call to Arms. There was another character played by the same actress. Same thing as with "Morden" in The Gathering.

[@weirds0up]

I remember reading an interview when Crusade got cancelled that one of the issues was that, I think it was shown on TNT, and people who normally watched the network weren’t watching Crusade and the people tuning in for Crusade weren’t sticking around for the other shows on the network. It was a shame that they dropped the show before a full season was finished because there was some interesting potential in the story.

[@chrism7395]

42:00 Former Shadow Ally asking, "Who are you?" When I GM'd a B5 themed RPG for some friends (using the Scum & Villainy game as a base), I posed the Crusade questions to the players as part of session 0's character creation, it worked pretty well. 65!

[@TheDoctor1701a]

Crazy. I have rewatched B5 many many times and am still watching your first time runthrough of B5. BUT I have never watched Crusade as a whole. Watched one or two episodes 20 years ago and that is it. Bought the DVDs ten years ago and STILL did not watch it. Don‘t know why. Now I have a reason to finally watch Crusade for the first time too. I am curious what this journey with you will be like. Watched the episode and now listening to you. So thanks for continuing the b5 journey beyond the main series.

[@Babylon5FortheFirstTime]

Welcome along the first watch journey!!!

[@ianstopher9111]

Three carryovers from the film, if you mean actors. We got Marjean Holden

[@mjbull5156]

You do have to count the Excalibur as a holdover.

[@charlesmaurer6214]

Commander Cain from the old Battlestar might be the closest for the Captain IMHO. Not the cheap copy later.

[@ianstopher9111]

I picked the wrong week to give up amphetamines.

[@charlesmaurer6214]

@@ianstopher9111 Same actor but two totally different rolls and don't need to note hot shots either. LOL

[@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures]

Actually an Airplane reference. Bit harsh on BSG there matey, two charges you can't level at it in my opinion is that it was cheap and a copy. 'Ave a good 'un!​@charlesmaurer6214

[@ianstopher9111]

@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures Perhaps he meant Commander Cain was a cheap copy, not the show itself.

[@charlesmaurer6214]

@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures The BSG remake was a low budget, poorly written nockoff with CGI that didn't even improve on the practical. I knew it was Airplane but in that comedy line he also did the Hot Shot films as the CO and later POTUS. L. Bridges was a great actor and played a wide range of roles. His version of Cain was modeled on Patton and a willingness to get it done even outside the rules when needed. Not out to make friends but loyal to his people and what needs done as he saw it. The girl Cain was a true nut job and only caring about herself even above her mission as she saw it doing the Cylon job for them. She gave up on any future by abandoning families or the means to repopulate. They rewrote the roles to the point of destroying them as role models making half the leads bad guys and made the Cylons a creation of man instead of an alien race. No other alien races in a multi galaxy quest when the first had two in the pilot/movie and encountered or mentioned a few others along the way (Including a 3rd mentioned in the pilot) That human or their creation only galaxy of the remake is beyond egocentric and one dimensional as it gets in sci fi.

[@voiceover2191]

Warzone was an episode demanded by the studio as they wanted a classic intro to the story and the characters. JMS wanted the episode Racing the Night to be the first episode and as usual between him and the studio he was absolutely right and it would have made a far better opener, sort of get you in the middle of the story and then gradually get you familiarized with the backstory plotwise and the characters, feels way more organic and actually treats its audience as adults that are intelligent enough to pick things up along the journey. Same mistake by the way was made with Firefly and unfortunately both shows suffered the same fate, but at least Firefly got a movie a few years later to sort of wrap up the story.

[@la_scrittice_vita]

Remember, letting studio suits have their way _later,_ with "their" show (that did not matter) was how Joe got to finish the story he started with B5, S5 in peace. It was a good deal.

[@chrisharris9643]

I LOVE B5, but ive never actually seen Crusade.i saw that it was just a year and kind of figured that it probably never got its loose ends tied up. I really dont like when that happens with shows .

[@hornorsilk2901]

there are scripts, outlines, and books which help fill in the blanks with Crusade and what was planned; what we have in a hodge-podge of a beginning of a series which had great potential, but also many bad elements due to TNT interference and loss of budget. It's still good, still B5 universe, still gives some new lore, and is worth watching.

[@TheFireMonkey]

the score was just better - comtrya 🐒

[@themisspultone]

when there is no Earth, are you Earthmen?

[@dougcramer2364]

I can’t believe you didn’t discuss the ship and its fire power. 65.

[@MattLathrum]

It was mentioned in the recap (and you missed a funny if you skipped it)

[@rrcollier]

65

[@TheFireMonkey]

65

[@lchigoKurosaki]

B5 fan here that has never watched Crusade, im watching it with you guys, its been a great ride, and fun first episode so far.

[@Babylon5FortheFirstTime]

The first episodes are great. Hope the rest are too!

[@martintoggweiler2343]

Dr. Chambers is not the same character we saw in ACTA on the bridge, same actor though, I tag it in my mind as identical twins. This phenomenon has occurred before in the B5 universe.

[@hornorsilk2901]

JMS also says twins

[@martintoggweiler2343]

@@hornorsilk2901 Almost had another one too with Michael York slated to play the Gideon role until TNT kiboshed that, supposedly because in light of Patrick Stewart/Picard they didn’t like the idea of yet another Brit starship captain. IIRC JMS has said the character wouldn’t have been David McIntyre/Arthur (as his past record of instability would have disqualified him in leadership’s eyes) but someone else. The identical twin “fix” wouldn’t have worked quite as well since Dr. Franklin should have known of a twin’s existence, but I suppose if David’s twin was known to be an Explorer-class ship captain traveling far from known space, it could still be made to fit.

[@hornorsilk2901]

@@martintoggweiler2343 actually, he was not going to play Gideon. York was going to play the same character he played before. Gideon was originally Arthur. I mean, what's the name of the vessel? ;)

[@martintoggweiler2343]

@@hornorsilk2901 Arthur commanding Excalibur would have been flavorful, but I definitely remember that York wouldn’t have played the same character. Pretty sure that came from JMS but I cannot recall the exact source where I found it.

[@hornorsilk2901]

@@martintoggweiler2343 oh, I remember the opposite, it was going to be him as Arthur. And if you look to some aspects of Gideon, you can see a bit of Arthur in him.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

Another tidbit, that might be a spoiler, I really don't know. Let's assume it is. Technomages are a creation of the Shadows, while telepaths came from the Vorlons. I always found it amusing that Gideon's most trusted advisors, Galen and Matheson, represented the two opposing sides ofthe Great War. The spoiler part, of course, itthat I think it's not general knowledge among the fans who created the technomages.

[@hornorsilk2901]

That is a spoiler, a big one.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

@@hornorsilk2901 Well, caution saved the day. I'll assume you knew about it?

[@hornorsilk2901]

@@sergioaccioly5219 yes - and it is the kind of thing I think we can discuss later, as I think at least Jeff is going through the books, where this becomes a main point

[@alvincura]

Or it's possible you guys that the score is just awful and you are simply getting used to that fact.