You’re WRONG About Synthetic Insulation

[@TheWeekendHiker]

I feel like this is only one piece of the puzzle. Layering is the way to go. Typically I won't wear my outer shell till I get to camp after hiking. During more strenuous activity I wear my base layer and mid layer. If I get cold, from wind I might throw on my rain jacket, while hiking, and remove the rain jacket as I warm up. I'll just save my puffy til I get to camp.

[@aurtisanminer2827]

I do the same. The only hiking I might do in my down coat is first thing in the morning until I get my blood circulating more. Then I’ll take it off. That’s only on a rare occasion, though.

[@HEY-ITS-COREY]

I am in love with my Hard Land synthetic puffy jacket. It is the best jacket for big dudes like me that I have found so far. Companies need to make more options for us big dudes and ladies alike.

[@larrycutting4514]

This lesson came home loud and clear when I moved to AK. Living in the high mountains of Colorado, there was basically zero humidity, especially in the winters and down was king in everyway. Moving to AK, the first time one of my brothers and I went skiing, the area is on the coast. We started out with snowing and turned to sleet and to rain. Our down gear was soaked and not warm as we've experienced in CO. However, when I worked on the North Slope of AK, where again there is basically zero humidity during winter at -40-50, down did it's magic. Since those early years, synthetic has become more economical to manufacture along with many new properties that most all Arctic gear is now synthetic. On a side note, I was out one day at -60 with a wind chill of estimated -160 and perfectly warm with my down gear of multiple layers. Not sure about synthetic at that point... But that was an extreme that most people will never be exposed to

[@kjh6395]

I always backpack with a down jacket because it is never cold enough in 3 season (and even winter) hiking for a puffy jacket while actively hiking for me. A base layer, fleece, and hard shell will suffice down to 20 degrees for me or even colder on steep trails.

[@BackcountryExposure]

I actually love the mid layer options of all variety to choose from right now. Light weight synthetic layers, grid fleeces, merino, alpaca, etc. Makes it easy to adapt to whatever conditions you typically hike in, or just the changing seasons. A hard shell with a fleece is a heat factory in a lot of cases. I just was on a trip where I had my sun hoody and my rain jacket only. It was low 40's and while I was moving it was just warm enough.

[@kjh6395]

@ yeah the hard shell can be a little excessive with the heat, I get that. Really that only comes out for me in cold rain and snow. I can see the benefits of synthetic insulation, but in most cases a base layer and some sort of fleece do it for me. There are a lot of options for mid layers these days. I recently got an alpha direct hoodie and that was a game changer.

[@cjod33]

Im in my fifties now and have been working in the outdoors most of my life. I've run outdoor education centres, climbing/canyoning/fly fishing guiding. I went back to wool years ago and I'm still using the majority of the woolen garments that ive had since my twenties.

[@rodoutdoors]

I use both a synthetic and down puffy jacket. Both are fine. I don't put them in situations where they would get wet. So no hiking.. just standing around but there were times I overheated and ended up sweating when sleeping wih it on. Down is lighter and packs down smaller but more expensive. Synthetic is easier to clean but the insulation doesn't last as long.

[@jpriddle]

Glad you’re bringing this up here. It is indeed a nuanced conversation. Which makes it important for “experts” and educators to communicate accurately about the latest insulation technologies. Also important is to simplify the decision making process for those seeking advice, especially those new to outdoor activities. I advise a lighter continuous filament insulation paired with a fleece mid-layer to fair weather beginners. Then add high loft down for more extreme temps. The synthetic will be more accessible, consistent, versatile and forgiving. The down will excel at providing maximum static warmth in a more compact packed size. This is of course oversimplifying, but also reduces decision anxiety while still being prepared for the most critical environmental conditions.

[@wolfeadventures]

Fantastic topic! Thank you for talking about static vs active use. This in my opinion is just as if not more important of a topic than ‘what if my jacket gets rained on or submerged. ‘

[@BackcountryExposure]

To me it's the far more important topic to discuss. :) Thanks!

[@outsiderswalks5460]

how often have people with a down jacket tried having it so wet the down collapse ? having used down for hiking and outdoor use a lot the last 25 years, happened once (at home, surprice heavy rain - took around 20min before it collapsed - which would of course not happen on a trip... its much more about - use it for while you hike or only in camp ? if i plan on mainly/only camp use, well down - for active use, synthetic.... one of the reasons being that down insulation needs material thats less open to keep the down inside, where on synthetic you can use more open woven shell material making it more breathable

[@BackcountryExposure]

Yeah my point at the beginning of the video was to point out that too often the conversation about the two is solely focused on "if down gets wet it won't insulate, and synthetic will." But my point was to draw attention to how that's not realistic and were looking at it wrong. That's where I focused on static vs active and the realistic use cases. I've had a down sleeping bag get soaked after falling into a river and not having a liner for my pack. But I've never had a jacket get soaked.

[@outsiderswalks5460]

@@BackcountryExposuretotally agree with the point - also, Well it might be that your synthetic doesn’t collapse when totally wet, but not really sure if it’s a good idea putting it on due to heat loss from wet material… point is … avoid getting your jacket wet and instead focus on it’s main attributes like you do…

[@bushcraftbasics2036]

After years of hearing the wonders of down and how light it is so I finally got one. It was light, it was warm and it is usually left behind. I found it compressed too easily under a shell jacket if I had stuff in the pockets. Loss of loft means loss of insulation. I am sure it is great as a standalone but with the layering system I was doing and often wore a load bearing vest the down was not a winner. Wearing it as a standalone going out to the truck and clearing the windshield it was great as a "town" coat. All that being said I love it for sleeping bags.

[@marilyn2]

Thank you for this. This is useful information as I am looking for a warm jacket.

[@iainwright-turner6210]

I love my outdoor vitals ventus hoodie as an active piece when backpacking, i then also carry the outdoor vitals vario as a warmth piece mostly for camp but when i combine them both together with the vario on top of the ventus i find i get the warmth down to freezing temperatures, its great pieces for synthetic insulation and the weight savings from both pieces compared to a fleece and a down jacket is great

[@brucemattes5015]

I ultimately became cold in all of the down products that I purchased over a period of more than 5 years. To include some of the priciest and most well-known brands in the outdoors space like The North Face and Eddie Bauer. I purchased camp booties, mittens, pants, vests, jackets, hoods, and various sleeping bags. It's just my opinion, but down is only applicable for me in climates such as interior Alaska, and high altitude mountaineering where the cold is brutal and the relative humidity rarely rises above 15% during the winter months. For east of the Mississippi River and the Pacific Northwest, where I spent the vast majority of my backpacking, hiking, climbing, camping, hunting, and fishing years, a high-quality synthetic fill garment or sleeping bag makes more sense and has the distinct advantage of maintaining some of its loft and warmth when wet, something that in my experience, down simply failed miserably at.

[@cdredger16]

Choice depends on your environment and conditions. I spend most of my outdoor time floating rivers in the PNW on the wet, west side of the Cascades and Alaska. Many of my trips are several days to multiple weeks. There is a real risk of soaking my insulation layers from capsize, slipping on rocks, and splashing from rapids. Having been too wet more than once, I absolutely will not use down insulation on these trips. Getting your primary down insulation wet (or, God forbid, your down sleeping bag) several days into a two week wilderness trip can have real survival consequences. There is so much rain and moisture here south of Seattle, I will not even wear down insulation when out for a few hours walking locally because I don’t want to have to carry an extra jacket for rain. My situation may not be your situation.

[@Olan...]

You covered the pros and cons perfectly there.What are your thoughts on the Cumulus Neolite jacket Devin? i have got one, and also the Neolite Endurance and the loft is amazing for the total weight of the jacket . I rate it over any of the other brands equivalents such as ME ,PHD and Rab. They are goosedown cloud Heaven and also the fit is spot on for the more athletic fit.

[@tangenttrails]

Excellent subject! Thanks for sharing this.

[@aurtisanminer2827]

You have 66.6k subscribers and I like that.

[@sawyerhaupt]

With many years of experience of high mountain climbing/mountaineering synthetic technology in the last few years have passed down. The only major difference is packability. Biggest thing to remember if it packs down it cools down. It needs time to recover why down sleeping bags are better in general because they have time. Difference in a coat is much less. Active vs static is so much more valid. I use both. Another valid point is coverage in synthetic can be greater for the same weight in down possibility creating a net positive in warmth.

[@Rando-user-zm1fx]

When looking at synthetic jackets I have no idea what temp ranges the fill power is. It says x amount of grams and it just means nothing to me. I'd like an active jacket for winter backpacking in cold winter climates, ( Northern Minnesota) but I have no idea how to choose. I also go to Scotland often and it's wet and windy, but with not as extreme cold is I'm used to.

[@philsmith2444]

@@Rando-user-zm1fx Active jacket for winter backpacking? Marmot Olden Polartec hoodie. They’re amazing. I backpack and snowshoe in Maine and can wear a silkweight baselayer top and the Olden from 10F to the upper 30s and be comfortable & dry. They vent moisture like you wouldn’t believe.

[@rrampage36]

⁉️ I would think a synthetic sleeping bag might actually be warmer on the underside than down...Because it DOESN'T compress as much under body weight. Looking past the larger pack volume and weight of the synthetic over down, of course...Right ???

[@jacknorman4248]

With the creation of "Dry Down" or "Hydrophobic Down" isn't the rule about "down insulation not being effective when wet" becoming a non-issue? I'm pretty sure the Zenbivy guy showed a bunch of experiments demonstrating this. It seems that with these modern treatments, the primary difference between down and synthetic when it comes to getting wet is now cost more than performance. What do you think?

[@PokerMuppet]

Absolutely... every jacket I see these days, even cheaper ones have a DWP coating to the outer material and expensive jackets have the treatments you mention. It also negates the common sense that if it's raining, wear a damn waterproof top layer. A soaked synthetic jacket is still going to transfer that water to your base layers.

[@neonsamurai1348]

No that is not entirely correct, the treatments allow down to stay dryer for a longer period of time, and dry a lot quicker than untreated down, but they absolutely will lose most of their insulating capacity as they get saturated with water, and can be difficult to dry once they are saturated. In other words the treated down will still absorb water, just not as easily and quickly. Hydrophobic does not mean that it cannot absorb water (That would be waterproof).

[@BackcountryExposure]

Down is naturally hydrophobic... but then the oils and such get stripped during the washing that happens with it, to then get a treatment by other means. The treated downs are great and definitely help reduce the ability for the down to get wet and clump. But my point was to point out that too much focus is put on getting caught in a wet storm or falling into a river and comparing the insulations that way. Where it's more about the use cases, and what the insulation is capable of in those use cases. Hence the discussion of static vs active insulation.

[@philsmith2444]

@salesassistant3019 It’s not intended to protect against immersion or soaking, just light moisture from drizzle, mist, or sweating.

[@davidcooper8390]

Unfortunately there is not "one jacket to rule them all". I have down jackets and synthetic jackets and each have a place. Is there a way to find out what jackets use Thermore sythetic insulation?

[@BackcountryExposure]

I agree. I need to ask Thermore if there is a good way to find out. I know for sure that Stio and Karbon use their insulations, as that's what I've got. But I'll do some research and see what I can find. :)

[@rhrh100]

Very helpful. I haven’t heard anyone else make these points.

[@coconinoman]

I subscribe to your channel Devin and think it's one of the better hiking/gear channels out there. My quibble with this video though is that because it's sponsored by a company that makes synthetic insulation it gives the appearance that your conclusions might be tilted a little. I have no idea if that's true in this case but I have a hard time believing a synthetic product manufacturer would sponsor your video unless the recommendations were going to be positive. I think your review would have appearred more objective if it was an unsponsored video or if perhaps it had two sponsors, one of which was a company that provided down insulation. In my many years of hiking/backpacking I've formed the opinion that down maintains its performance over a longer period of time as it seems able to rebound from stuffing time and time again whereas synthetic seems to rebound less over time. Also, I live and hike in the often rainy Pacific Northwest and have never got my down gear soaked, it's not that hard to keep dry. I do have a synthetic mid layer which I like so I'm not anti synthetic but to me, down is king in most circumstances.

[@BackcountryExposure]

Thanks for your comment and thoughts. My point of the video wasn't to draw a conclusion on synthetic being better or the superior insulation to down. In fact, I specifically say that I am not going to say one is better than the other, and that each type has its place. The point was to drive awareness to the use cases for each insulation type. Static insulation vs active insulation. But thank you for your thoughts, and for supporting the channel. :)

[@timmo971]

It’s the weight and packability too. Down wins in that regard hands down although in a jacket the difference is moot but a bag or quilt sized item for sure.

[@jeket5007]

I have both down and synthetic jackets. I have to say my go to right now has been the Forclaz hooded synthetic jacket. Just love this jacket and it is super warm for the weight

[@BackcountryExposure]

I agree, that jacket is excellent!

[@nabwong]

Great video. Agree with the case by case use. I also have both synthetic and down. Funny story. One of my favs is the Decathlon puffy. I bought an L and XL so I could use one as a mid layer and one as an outer layer.

[@jetmuchacho]

I fooled around with down puffy jackets for a year or so but I found them to be an around town fashion item at best. I find them useless in my climate for anything outdoors. I stick to synthetic for traveling light, only because they can take a lot more abuse from sweat and humidity than down can. When it gets actually cold I switch to multiple layers of wool and a windproof shell usually goretex or equivalent. I live in Alberta though and it's a frozen hell here at least 7 months of the year, so ymmv.

[@memathews]

Wow, you got some heat in the comments on this subject! Hiking, climbing, backpacking, and camping here in the PNW for 60+ years in all weather conditions throughout the year and elevations from sea level to 10,000"+, selecting insulation is an event-specific exercise based on individual needs. I'm with you, selecting layers for the season/location/activity is the answer for me and down versus synthetic--or anything else--depends on the conditions and locations. We learn a lot about 35-40 degree rainy conditions and the value of being wet and warm with a change to dry layers when we stop. Synthetics, fleece, wool, down--even cotton--all have their place in the mix depending on the trip. Summers that are dry and warm mean light layers to move sweat away from and cool the body during the day, while drying quickly in the evening and warming into the night that might freeze--but never forget to pack a poncho for a surprise rain. Winter and shoulder season means lots of rain or snow, but a dry day is probably filled with moderate wind and cold temperatures.

[@BackcountryExposure]

I think it just means a good topic to discuss with a lot of opinions. Appreciate you sharing your experience too!

[@LostAgainwithJim]

I only use synthetic insulation for reasons. But I learned a lot from this video. Thanks!

[@BackcountryExposure]

@@LostAgainwithJim thanks Jim!

[@wisenber]

The extremes of the two aren't really accurate either. For down to catastrophically clump and fail, would have to be immersed. If it's damp, it is still providing insulation, and enough heat over time can dry it in the field. On the flip side, completely drenched synthetic insulation isn't going to keep you warm. Water transfers heat. Water doesn't care about what it's transferring heat through. A synthetic piece of gear will dry more quickly, but a soaked piece of synthetic insulation will be moving more heat away from you than it's keeping. Chopped strand synthetic tends to have a shorter useful life because the strands will twist around each other with use and with laundering. Down can have it's loft restored with heat and a tennis ball. Continuous strand polyester (Climashield) doesn't have the twisting issue chopped strand does, and its loft gets restored with a normal dryer and no tennis ball.

[@philsmith2444]

@@wisenber Dampness is what treated down is meant for. Light drizzle, sweat, moist air. It’s water-resistant enough to stuff in a non-waterproof stuff sack in your pack to save a bit of weight if that’s your thing. But that’s not catchy enough to market it, I guess.

[@wisenber]

@philsmith2444 Stuffing it damp is what tends to make it fail fastest, that and I wouldn't advise any drizzle.

[@philsmith2444]

@@wisenber I’ve stood out in drizzle and snow flurries for a couple hours wearing a DownTek jacket and it kept me warm enough I never even noticed it had started to let water through until I got home.

[@wisenber]

@philsmith2444 That's more of a DWR on the shell issue. The bigger problem is when you stuff a damp down item in your pack. Untreated down can take a weekend of dampness. The failure tends to happen on more extended trips...or when it's just more wet out.

[@philsmith2444]

@@wisenber No, the jacket was wet through to the point where my shirt was getting wet. I didn’t know at the time because I never got cold. The down was damp, though not soaked, and still insulating. In the real world sometimes you have to do things that are less than ideal. Your wet tent fly may get put in the stuff sack, and a down jacket may need to be packed away while damp. Put it on under a rain jacket when you get to camp to let it start drying while you eat and sit around, and bring it in your sleeping bag to dry from your body heat just like any other damp clothing.

[@neemancallender9092]

Rule #1 is never sweat into your clothes Take of before hot Put on when stopping Your definition are Overly complicated Use US Army definitions Cold Wet and Cold Dry Cold Wet = Synthetic Cold Dry = Down

[@philsmith2444]

@@neemancallender9092 And since you don’t want to be stopping every 15 minutes to add or remove a layer, hike chilly and adjust your pace to warm up or cool down. Being warm like you’re at home watching TV is for rest stops and camp.

[@TheRealStove]

The only thing that has me preferring down products over synthetic is that apparently down has a longer life, while synthetic starts to break down and lose loft quicker. Not sure how true that is, but I’ve heard plenty of anecdotes from people using even the most innovative synthetics around. I also rarely get my puffy wet and mainly use it for around camp. I’d love to see a synthetic insulation that lasts as long as down though!

[@BackcountryExposure]

I think that would have been true in the past, but at this point it's not as true. I've even had issues with my down jackets where over time I develop cold spots in the elbows and in areas where it's folded often. The down eventually shifts out of those areas and then it's hard to get it to stay put in those areas when you shift it back.

[@NotYou9311]

Ultimately, down is better (high quality down). But, it is hard to care for and useless when wet. Also, more expensive. Synthetic is easy to care for, still useful when wet...and less expensive. For myself, I choose synthetic - in a multi-layer system. Never just one layer. I prefer no less than 3 layers, sometimes 4 or 5. Of course, layers are added or subtracted, as activity level and ambient temperature require.

[@Blooneful]

I felt like I just watched a commercial. I don't feel like you're adding much to the conversation - it's common knowledge that down is currently lighter for the same effectiveness as synthetic, it costs more, and it doesn't dry as fast. Since you came at this with a fact-providing slant, it would have been nice for you to actually test the drying speed of similar jackets with down/synthetic (using your cool thermal camera) and also involved things like wax-coated down.

[@BackcountryExposure]

Thanks for your thoughts. My point, if you watched the full video, wasn’t to focus solely on what happens when your insulation gets wet. Moisture management is important for sure, but rather focusing on active insulation vs static insulation. As I said when dunking jackets in the water, it’s truly just not a realistic situation. When was the last time you or someone you know had your insulated jacket get completely compromised from getting wet? 1 out of 1000 days on trail? And surely accidents can and do happen. I had a friend slip into a bug swimming hole in the desert this fall and soak himself head to toe. But rather as I discussed in the video, we should be talking about choosing the right insulation for the activity. Lots of people will argue that down is the only option ever. And be unwilling to accept that other solutions are available. Or visa versa with synthetic. At the end of the day, thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts. I feel someone who isn’t as familiar with the topic will find value out of what I shared. 👍🏻

[@Chase3141]

Yes, a video about down vs synthetic that is sponsored by a synthetic insulation company feels like it might be biased

[@BackcountryExposure]

@@Chase3141sure… but did I really ever say that down wasn’t good or that you should avoid down? I presented realistic scenarios and use cases of where each type is best and has its place.

[@haroldbleemel8537]

How is dunking your down not realistic? Have you never fished a deep river? Many people do. There are numerous possibilities where your clothing can get soaked. Major rainstorms would be another.

[@philsmith2444]

@@haroldbleemel8537 It’s realistic that you wouldn’t put a rain jacket on over your down in a rainstorm?

[@haroldbleemel8537]

@@philsmith2444 Not if you got caught out without one. Not everyone carries a rain jacket in their pack or on a day hike. If you've ever been in the mountains, storms pop up out of nowhere.

[@BackcountryExposure]

It’s not realistic in the vast majority of cases to find yourself dropping your insulation into a river. I’m not saying it can and hasn’t happened. The point was to focus on what is realistic in what situations you would find yourself in. A heavy rain storm is definitely possible. Sweating heavily in your jacket, also likely. Falling into a river, rolling around in it and pushing water into your jacket isn’t. Falling in, dunking for a short moment until you get out, that’s possible.

[@philsmith2444]

@@haroldbleemel8537 If you’re out in the mountains where storms pop up out of nowhere and you don’t have raingear then you have no business being out in the mountains. Maybe hanging out at the mall or coffee shop is a more appropriate hobby.

[@haroldbleemel8537]

@@philsmith2444 🤣🤣 I would agree but I've seen people do it.

[@billprice6458]

Down quilt or bag. Synthetic for jacket imo.

[@MoonbeameSmith]

When I got mine wet I simply wind milled my arm with the coat in my hand "centrifuging" the water out and warming myself up at the same time.. Worked a treat

[@tmarkcommons174]

The stories require too much detail, but I would certainly have died on two occasions if I had had down insulation. Shit happens!

[@camping_guru_uk]

Great video, thank you. I'm not sold on the "what if my down gets wet" for the reason id never where down like you say for any active movement. Here in the uk for sure we tend not to get that super dry cold, we get wet cold and that's another reason why i wouldn't really use any padded insulation (down type) for hiking etc. For me it's all about layers such as a Merino wool base, then at most something like a sun hoody (summer or winter) then maybe a thin fleece then my Paramo waterproof (never fully waterproof) for the breathability. Once at camp then that's when the down comes on (if its not raining) around camp ir in my tent.

[@PokerMuppet]

I'm with you on this... I hate that 'wetting out' comment, it's nonsense.

[@selapezo1636]

Wool.

[@PokerMuppet]

This channel has a constant bash about down and it 'wetting out'... What the hell are you doing to 'wet out' any clothing in this day and age? If your jacket is wetting out then you can be damn sure your clothing underneath is soaked too and that to me is a simple clothing failure. I wear down or synthetic jackets for warmth, that's it. If it rains heavy then you should have a waterproof layer to go over the top. However, these videos never mention that every down or synthetic insulated jacket I see now has some sort of water resistance. Cheaper jackets like the Decathlon MT500 have a water repelling coating on the surface material while more expensive jackets also treat the down filling inside so it keeps most of it's insulating properties even when wet and dries far quicker. But as I've said, if rain is a risk, I have a waterproof layer and I would even with a synthetic filled jacket. By all means, prefer synthetic, but please stop this nonsense excuse of 'wetting out' as your sole or main reason for doing so. Especially when you often compare a £60 MT500 down to a synthetic jacket that's £300+.

[@Jswiss35]

He was bashing the concept of wetting out at the beginning of the video… “this is not realistic” he said it several times.

[@user-ul5yu5hk9k]

I think synthetic insulation has come along ways since I was a kid and remember being freezing cold in those cheap synthetic coats. The invention of hollow fibers etc is a game changer for synthetics. It would be neat to see a video on the evolution of synthetic materials. It’s a different product than it was 40 years ago (at least the higher end synthetic insulations)

[@BackcountryExposure]

Did you watch the full video? I am confused why you think I've been constantly bashing down, please send the receipts.

[@BackcountryExposure]

I agree, the tech has really advanced. Degradation of the fibers is significantly less at this point.

[@briandoolittle3422]

Try watching the video before complaining.