Backwater SWOMP LITE GLIDER KIT for 12-16 HP Review

This was my experience and review with the Backwater SWOMP LITE GLIDER KIT for 12-16 HP engines.
Here is the article if you want a written version of it - www.jtgatoring...
My short review & conclusion is this:
The Backwater kit is a sturdy, solid built frame that is designed for gobbling up grass and chugging through mud, while also appearing to take abuse well. It favors those who are not gear-heads, wrench-turners, or tinkerers, due to having little to modify and few prop sizes to choose from. Speed is NOT a priority with this kit. If you want American Made and don’t mind paying the price tag for it, then this kit IS a solid consideration.
The main issue I had with this kit is that I can not drive it for more than 10 minutes without my hands going numb. This is due to the vibration of the tiller handle.
I will be taking the Backwater kit off of this 13hp predator engine and putting the Swamp Runner back on it (if it will fit since I had to cut the PTO shaft) and then go out and run that setup and see what happens. If there is no vibration with the Swamp Runner kit, then I will associate the vibration with the Backwater kit. If I still have a considerable amount of vibration, then the vibration will be due to the engine.
For the most part, I believe I have tested all the major longtail mud motor KITS. I believe the next step would be the pre-assembled engines. These would mainly be the Go-Devil and the Mud Buddy longtails. These are very expensive though so it may take some time to get to that point. So any advice or help on that would be appreciated.
There is still a lot to cover with mud motors, jon boats, and the great outdoor lifestyle. Videos and articles will continue to come out every Saturday! Thank you for your support and for taking the time to get to this point. I hope you enjoy your time at JTgatoring and hope you visit again!
Assembly - • Backwater Swomp Lite G...
First Water Test - • Backwater Swomp Lite 1...
Cruising - • 1436 Jon Boat with 13h...
Load Test - • 13hp Backwater Mud Mot...
Customer Service - • Backwater Swomp Lite G...
Simple Modifications - • Backwater Mud Motor Si...
9x5 Prop Test - • 9x5 Prop | 1436 Jon Bo...
9x4 Prop Test - • Backwater 9x4 Prop Tes...
BOAT SETUP:
1436 lt Alumacraft Jon Boat (would not recommend - get a tracker or something else other than an Alumacraft) {135lbs}
13hp Predator Engine by Harbor Freight (serial/model number 60349 [hemi-version]) {76lbs}
Backwater Swomp Lite Glider Kit 12-16 HP {57lbs}
Custom front deck and floor {~75lbs}
Battery, trolling motor, fishing supplies, cooler, anchor, etc... = {~100lbs}
My weight = 150lbs
Total weight = 600 pounds
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[@thegreenberetlife0191]

The guys at Backwater build fantastic motors. Their 40 SWOMP sets the standard for longtails and are built like a tank!

[@JTgatoring]

Yeah, I haven't seen the bigger engines yet where I'm at. I do know that a lot of people like the bigger v-twin engines, but the single-cylinder engine kit on this 13hp engine runs a little rough for me. Jake at backwater has been great. The setup just didn't as good as I was hoping it would.

[@daleley7645]

Thanks for the review, it shows the good and the bad. Look forward to other reviews. Have a good day.

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you for your feed back Dale and I hope you have a great weekend 👍

[@rustymac40]

I have a Swamp runner and my fishing bud has a backwater, we both run predator 22hp. Vibration is the same between both kits, my swamp runner is about 5mph faster (same size boats). I like the backwater a little better...not close to 1000 better though. lol Knowing what I know now I would still buy my swamp runner:)

[@JTgatoring]

Hey rustymac40! Thank you for stopping by and dropping a comment. I do think the backwater is a good kit choice for the v-twin engines. I would think it would really cut down on vibration when compared to the single-cylinder engine kit that I ran. As you said, the price difference just doesn't cut it though. I think the backwater shines when your boat is wider than 48" and you still want a longtail. That's a pretty good difference in speed between you and your buddy

[@jeffccr3620]

Bingo

[@sgrasmick82]

Glad to hear! I was debating between the 2 for a 22hp build. I also have a swamprunner and will be sticking with another one. Or 3 for the cost of 1 backwater lol😂

[@enuff2bdangerous]

Excellent job brother! I truly trust your review methods. I put a stage 1 carb and torque tube on my sps predator 13hp kit. I gained 200rpm, more load carrying abilities and 2mph increase in speed. I would love to see the mud skipper short shaft and a copperhead review and comparison.

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you Enugg 2B Dangerous! I really appreciate your support. Thats great you were able to get that much of a performance increase from a stage one kit, really that quite good! I do have to rebuild the transom on this 1436. once I get that done and see how I feel about the strength of the transom, then I'll start researching the surface drives. I'll look into the mud skipper one and copperhead has been on the radar so I'll add them to the list, thanks again 👍

[@SluSharkND]

This was a great review, JT. I love the made in USA and the heavy duty nature. I feel that your observation about this being the kit for the non tinkering user is incorrect. You at least have to be somewhat of a tinkerer just to cut your motor shaft. I don't care for that part of this kit, nor the incredibly steep angle in which it must be run. Love your channel, keep up the great work.

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you SluSharkND for your feed back and support. This backwater kit is build with some great machining but it just didn't perform as well as I had hoped. You do make some great points. I'll continue to improve the channel and I hope you continue to enjoy it, thanks again SluSharkND for your continued support 👊

[@ScottAEvers]

JT, thanks for a great review. I think you made some excellent points. Just wanted to say that I think each of these kits has their place. I have the exact same boat as you and went with the Backwater kit paired up to a modified predator 212cc motor and didn't have to cut the pto shaft to get them to pair up. I fish and hunt the coastal marshes here in Texas and wanted a lightweight rig that I could launch from shore if I had to or get out and drag the boat up onto land that's why I went with the smaller motor. I knew before I bought the Backwater that it would be slower than a Thai kit that's why I added the upgrades to the motor to compensate for this. I can run 20 mph solo and 15-16 mph with 2 people and I'm perfectly fine with that. I have to agree with Frank that the Backwater is meant to handle abuse, not saying that the Thai kit cannot handle some as well but the Backwater kit is geared more towards hunters which are really hard on their equipment and need to know it won't leave them stranded. This is why when you look at all of the American style longtails they are built so heavy. The reason that they are inherently slower is that they are designed to push a load through some of the harshest conditions so they run beefier, lower pitch props to handle the abuse and provide the necessary push to get all us fat guys with all our gear to that hidden spot. That being said the Thai kits seem great for the price if all you need is a shallow water motor to get you through some skinny water and the occasional obstacle. I have a layout boat for hunting that I want to power and I'm actually considering a small SPS kit for this application since all I'm wanting to get out of it is speed and shallow water operation. So I'm not biased towards one kit or the other, I just think you need to know what you are buying and what your expectations are for what you want to do with it. As for your vibration issue I don't think it has anything to do with the motor. I agree that all single cylinder motors are going to vibrate a little more than a v-twin but all of these are basically lawnmower engines, not precision balanced motors, so there is always going to be some vibration. I think the difference comes from the props. If you look at the Backwater prop compared to the Thai kit props you'll see the difference. The Backwater prop is a heavy stainless prop with a flat leading edge meant to take strikes without deforming. The motor has to swing more weight causing more centrifugal force which is transmitted back through the frame, whereas the Thai props are super lightweight aluminum props that have a sharp leading edge so they slice through the water much easier with much less strain from the motor. I actually didn't anticipate having many strikes where I fish and hunt so I took a dremel to my Backwater prop and ground down the leading edge to sharpen it up to try and gain a little more speed. I haven't had a chance to use it like this yet so not sure what difference it made. Just seems in my mind that a prop should slice through the water to be efficient. So in summary for anyone looking into getting a longtail mud motor, do your research, know what you need, don't expect too much and just enjoy everything mother nature has to offer.

[@JTgatoring]

Hey @BOAT ADDICT thanks you for taking the time to watch and leave a quality comment. I do disagree with a few specific point you make, but in general, I would agree with your basic concept of each person has their own style and need as long as they get out there and enjoy it. To comment on a few things; - With regards to people "need to know it won't leave them stranded" that is the one thing I would specifically go for a Thai kit. I know what's inside the longtail shaft and the entire drivetrain, I assembled the kit, and there are no hidden pieces and there is A LOT of people out there with them so you know what pieces are a good idea to carry with you. With the backwater kit, I don't know what's inside the shaft. It's all sealed. The Thai kit I could rebuild out on the water with standard tools in my boat, or remove a bushing that may have failed in the shaft and still be able to get back to the ramp. The problem I see with the backwater kit is IF it breaks... it's broke. There's no fixing it, you're stranded in the water where you are at. Whether its a broke kit or engine. I feel better knowing that something in the Thai kit will most likely give before something in my engine does. - For load carrying, with the same engine being used, the Thai kit should be able to handle more load because it is a more efficient system, hence higher speeds. Also, the props come in different diameters and pitches so you can really dial it in for your use and load. Backwater props only have two available pitches for this size engine and really only one that is viable. -In regards to vibration, I'll be able to tell if its the engine or the backwater kit in a couple of weeks. I'm putting the same engine on the SPS kit and see if there is a noticeable vibration change. If there's no vibration, then I know its the backwater kit. Even if its the backwater's inability to manage the vibration, and not due to an improperly balanced shaft, it's still a characteristic of the backwater kit allowing an increase in vibration that the operator has to deal with.

[@ScottAEvers]

@@JTgatoring thanks for the correction. I shouldn't have claimed that the Thai kits would leave someone stranded. Everything does eventually break and will need fixed, that's just the name of the game. You're absolutely right though, if the Backwater breaks I'm pretty sure there would be no way for me to repair it out in the field. But I try not to think about it that way. I just have to put my faith in their product and hope that happens way way down the road and be prepared for when that day does come, which like I said is inevitable, it happens to everyone at some point. The last thing any hunter wants is to have to stop and take time out of his day to repair his motor out on the water especially early in the morning, talk about ruin a hunt in a hurry. I think a better statement would have been that the American style longtails can handle more abuse before requiring any maintenance. I know this to be true because people have been relying on Go-Devil longtails for decades and there are people that have logged thousands of hours on a frame and they are still going strong. I would venture to say that a Go-Devil longtail is one of the strongest most reliable mud motors there is. I know Backwater is fairly new in the game but I'm sure some people would venture to say that their build quality and durability is on par with Go-Devil. I guess only time will tell. I absolutely don't mind giving the SPS longtail a chance and plan to do so. I'm quite confident that it will meet my demands for what I intend to use it for as well. I only disagree with one of your statements though regarding the props. I do believe the Backwater motor will push a load better because it runs a lesser pitch, larger diameter prop, which will always push a load better than a smaller one of higher pitch. That's why all American style longtails run such low pitch, large surface area props. They weren't meant for speed. Now if you want speed and push then you need to get into surface drive, but that's a whole nother can o' worms...haha

[@JTgatoring]

For many people, I believe that either way they go, they will either get tired/bored of their rig in search for something better or just to try something new and most people aren't pushing their rigs to the very limit where it could break. Some will rag on their stuff and some will choose not too. Most people know when they start to push the limits and know when to let up. I'd like to see how a Go-Devil works and see it in action where I could compare the thai kit I have to see if there really is that big of a difference. I only see polar opposites where people either hated their GD or they love it and wouldn't trade it for anything else. With props, its a whole science behind that anyways. The backwater kit came with a 8x4 prop. The sps came with a 8x5 and a 8.5"x5. Then you can get a 8.5"x7 or 8.5"x8 for the thai kit along with different 8" variants also. The BW kit only has a 8x4 for an 8" prop. Id have to go to the 22hp engine to use a 9" prop where they have the variants of 9x4, 9x5, 9x6, 9x7. So my point was directed towards the kit I bought with being a 13hp engine, I believe that the thai kit would be better since there is more than one option for pitch on a prop that the engine would actually be able to utilize. I really enjoy and appreciate this discussion. Thank you for bringing up new points that don't really get talked about all that often.

[@ScottAEvers]

I think you are correct there, most of us are always looking to trade up. Unfortunately there is not a perfect boat that can do it all, that's why I have so many...haha. I'm already thinking about what I want next! But yes, it is definitely fun to build up a rig and use it for a while and then do it all over again. I think you are right about the Go-Devil people. From what I hear they are slow, heavy and will work you to death...but they are bulletproof and I think that's why there are so many dedicated owners out there. I do have to say though that the people over there at Go-Devil are doing good things and making improvements to their products to keep up with an ever demanding market. I also agree that Backwater could use a just a few more prop choices for their small motors. I sure would like to see them offer a 7x5 and a 8x5. Thank you as well for the discussion. I always enjoy talking anything regarding boats and motors. Keep up the great work, looking forward to more reviews in the future.

[@JTgatoring]

@@ScottAEvers Very true, I'd like to get a bigger boat in the future (like a 1838 or 1842 = something skinnier than usual) to test out some of those bigger engines and mud motors to see how they perform. I have never contacted Go-Devil or had too many discussions with a Go-Devil owner or seen one in person. I do think it would benefit backwater to add some more prop choices but it may not be financially feesable depending on cost and demand for them. Either way, I'm most likely going to keep the kit and may bring it out if something pops up. I hope to see you around in future videos, thanks again BOAT ADDICT!👊

[@predator6707]

Thank you for the review was very good I liked it can’t wait to see you next Saturday’s video

[@JTgatoring]

I'm glad you enjoyed it Predator 670, I love the support, thank you very much!!

[@florida__jack]

Fantastic review. Very informative 👍

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you FLORIDA JACK! Love the support 👊

[@jacklowe3788]

I had previously watched some of this video but git side tracked year or so ago - This backwater kit came across my radar once again recently- I have another longtail kit but mostly run Jet boats up my way having shallow rocky rivers as opposed to more grass mud down South- Now some recent years low water conditions have let grasses take over some areas especially for duck hunting & fall fishing to put point where looking at bigger kit - So based on your testing & in my opinion unbiased level headed explanations, experience at giving all the kits so far a fair try / evaluation- I'm going to go w/ SPS - Thanks for taking time & effort to make these videos- jlo

[@JTgatoring]

Hey Jack. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. I know from the experiences I've had, I prefer my swamp runner kit over all the kits I've tested so far. It is just the best bang for your buck and it just performs. I haven't had to deal with many rocks yet. If I ended up breaking too many aluminum props, I'd probably get a spare coupler pto shaft along with a couple spare props and just run a stainless prop to see how it went. Let me know how your season goes! Good luck

[@jacklowe3788]

@@JTgatoring 10/4 Will Do!

[@sgrasmick82]

I have a swamprunner and need to buy another for a 22hp setup. Thanks for the video. I’ll be saving my $ and sticking with swamprunner. At 3x the cost for the 22hp setup. Your video didn’t display ANYTHING I cannot do with a swamprunner unless I’m missing something.

[@JTgatoring]

That is similar to how I felt about it. The swamp runner will go faster, it's smoother in the handle, it cost significantly less, and it has more prop options too. I don't think the backwater would break, but if it did, it seems like I would not be able to maintenance/fix it myself. With the swamp runner, I have no doubt about being able to get the parts and fix it myself. The other benefit of the swamp runner that I haven't shown in the videos yet is that I can rotate the skeg upwards so that the prop can eat its way through mud/vegetation to get to water if I'm stuck on top of a tussock, instead of trying to force the skeg through that impenetrable top layer of the tussock.

[@mattjonesturbo1]

I believe your get vibrations because how its designed the shaft when bolted together it's 1 solid piece the Thai long tails are designed with a 2 piece shaft with splines not allowing the vibration to transfer to the engine and tiller handle. Great content man keep up the good work.

[@JTgatoring]

Great concept, that could play a role in it. Thank you for taking the time to let me know, and supporting the channel Matt 👊

[@austinhowze6280]

I was going with the cut shaft throwing the balance off but a single piston shakes no matter what

[@JTgatoring]

@@austinhowze6280 Yeah I thought it could have been that issue, but after talking to a few people, the majority of them said that the shaft is centerline and it should not matter. And yes, single-piston/single-cylinder engines do vibrate more than a v-twin but for some reason was amplified and felt more with the backwater kit.

[@meleamodica5568]

I appreciate the review the only thing I wish you would have said is your preference on the mud kits as far as watching your videos it seems to be the SPS kit which I'm looking to get but at this point there's so many different ones out there I'm still 2:06 looking for the most bang for your buck that works the way it should just because it's made in America does it mean they have to charge an arm and leg thanks for the reviews

[@JTgatoring]

Well, after making this video, running it for a little, and then putting a swamp runner kit back on my boat, I prefer the swamp runner over it. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

[@riverrat4631]

I have a Swomp 40 on order and will make some videos for my channel. I had a 23hp Copperhead surface drive that would vibrate. Not like what you have going on, but I took some 5/8in horse stall matting and made my old surface drive rubber mounted. Worked great. I bet you could find some 1/4 in thick rubber washers and use them where your handle mounts to the engine. Be worth a try and a cheap fix if it worked.. love you video..

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you River Rat! There's no doubt the backwater kit is made very well, but I don't know if it's just with the single-cylinder engines or not, but the vibration up and through the handle was too much for me. That would be something to try with the rubber washers. I'll give that a try. Let me know how you like the Swomp 40! Thanks again!

[@riverrat4631]

@@JTgatoring I should have my 40 in a week or two. I paid for it last week. You can check out some of my videos with the Surface Drive. I only have 3-4 I left up. It was a great little motor, but it took forever to jump on plane. I’m not to worried about top speed. I hear the new 40 with the big prop is a beast on hole shots. I built my boat very heavy as you can see in my first video but it’s a tank for sure. I plan to make a lot of videos with the Swomp 40 and give a honest report. I did a lot of research and after many emails and calls with Jake I think Backwater is onto something with the direct shaft with the Swomp lite series over there Classic full frame. That U-joint had to rob horsepower. Keep a eye on my channel. I will do a unboxing video when it arrives. Thanks for responding...

[@JTgatoring]

@@riverrat4631 Awesome! Yeah, Jake was great with me and helping me out. Definitely a solid company. The 40hp seems like a beast of a motor. If they have a prop to fit that horsepower, I'm sure the holeshot will be great. That engine has some good torque to do it. I'll be keeping a lookout for it River Rat!

[@harleywayne6456]

Angle grinders and flip flops? "JT" must stand for they're "just toes". Just bustin your balls. Excellent review. I think I'll order a swamp runner for the price/non-cutting of the shaft. Not much mud where I'm at, just shallows with gravel/rocky bottoms

[@JTgatoring]

Haha I know... Looking back at it I probably should have had some type of protection on for the toes haha I appreciate it, no worries, and thank you! As for right now I think the swamp runner is the go-to for a normal set up but I do recommend the backwater kit for those where their boat is too wide for a longtail and their running a Vtwin engine

[@ronnie918644]

Hey Brother Thank you for your honest review. Solid Built take a beating design. But not good for my new build. Im going to be running Smaller rivers and creeks in Nebraska with some back water cat tail areas. Im talking sand and gravel bottom with tree stumps and full cottonwoods and the like at times in the water. Average 5mph river flow. Here is the kicker -- Depending on River Flow and irrigation use I can find a channel 10 ft wide in a 500 ft wide river water depth of 1 to 6 feet. the rest is sand bars and 4 inch deep. But if on plane I think i can design my used boat 14 ft 38 to run on plane in 4 inches to 1 inch of water for a short span. Over the sand bars !!! Thank You Bro for your vids !! Have enlightend my mind to try. And I have spent much time in China where the Longtail air cooled is the life of river people !! I will try to adapt a long tail 14 ft jon boat into a river runner that works in northeast nebraska !! I have a super tiny youtube channel where I post vids of my life and what I am coming up with. I ll let you know how things go. You are exactly like ME !! Love the water -Have a great time -- and Keep It Simple and Reliable !!! Gods Bless You My Bro and Have a Wonderful and safe MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!!!

[@JTgatoring]

Love the support. I thank you for it. Theoretically, if you are on plane with the thai longtail, the prop should be riding right at the water line or even higher due to riding in the rest of the wake. It should really benefit your needs. Please let me know when you do start. I love learning and seeing other people's take on things. I wish you a Merry Christmas, and the best of times

[@fracabby]

Backwater has to make a kit to fit a multitude of engines in a given horsepower range. If the kit was made to fit the shaft of the the Predator engine, a spacer would be required on certain other engines. If I had the choice to jam a spacer down into the coupler or cut my crankshaft down to the proper length, I’d cut my crankshaft. Plus if you put a spacer in your coupler, you’d have hell getting it out. As far as the “speed issues” you had, if you want to go faster, buy a bigger engine. The Backwater is a superior design that is built to last and stands up to some serious abuse, not just running through grass or open water. I can appreciate those who are dollar conscious and I realize the Backwater is more expensive than any of the Thai kits. But the Backwater is a premium product that really isn’t all that expensive when you look at the quality and customer service that comes along with it. There are a ton of people who initially tried to go the cheap route with a Thai kit but eventually bought a Backwater because their Thai kit wouldn’t handle the use it was getting. Buy one, cry once.

[@billypense7587]

I agree with everything you said, except for the customer service part ( Jake is a egotistical bi$&# ) and I'd love to tell him face to face. Other than that it is a great product

[@JTgatoring]

I disagree FRANKABBY2. For engine fitment, most single cylinder engines have the same output shaft length for the HP group they are in. Only when you start to get into v-twins does it really start to change the output shaft length and size when you have the same HP engine. For speed, you can not put a bigger engine on this boat because you would lose too much freeboard and greatly increase your chance of swamping the boat coming off plane, along with voiding your hull warranty. I would say that the Backwater kit does have a premium price tag, but for double or triple the price of a thai kit, the increase in "performance" doesn't outweigh the increase in price. The product itself has premium build quality, but it still have to perform... and with the vibration this kit puts to your hands, I would not recommend this kit with a single cylinder engine. Maybe once you get to a v-twin the vibration would decrease, but I think most people would enjoy a quality thai kit for a single cylinder engine over this backwater kit. The backwater kit has its place where it thrives, but for general use I still think MOST people would benefit more going with a Thai kit.

[@jamescoker6912]

Vibration is just that china made single cylinder motor, I'm a mechanic and it's just gonna vibrate. I'm looking into the twister now. Or maybe this kit. However if you want the handle to vibrate less get longer bolts. Use some heavy rubber washers to bolt it to the base of the engine. Or I was thinking use couple rubber trans mounts from a old Chevy truck. There is a way to make the handle way more comfy. Might take a tad of welding though. But still be very easy.

[@JTgatoring]

Good ideas. I wanted to test it out again after rebuilding my transom so I may give those a try. I was just surprised because I had the swamp runner kit on it and didn't experience as much vibration as I had with the Backwater. The swamp runner was much smoother in the handle. After finishing up with the backwater, I'm going to put the swamp runner back on and see if the vibration is the same.

[@shawnmoore9714]

In your opinion would the shorter shaft be limited in it's upstream torque ability also, or just lower overall speed ? I'm interested in the US style with it's shorter less awkward shaft, for use in shallow gravel bar rivers and not so concerned about speed. If not I'll just save some $'s and get the Thai kit.

[@JTgatoring]

In general, looking back at everything, I would recommend the Thai kit in almost all instances. The instances where I wouldn't recommend a thai kit and say to go with an American style longtail is when you have a wide boat at 48"+. The Thai longtail has a surface piercing prop. It doesn't have to be fully submerged to grab and push the boat forward. With the Backwater, the prop has to be fully submerged until it can bite and go. Then of course you have the better shaft angle and speed with the thai kit. The additional 20" on the shaft length helps you reach pockets of water. Maybe it's more "awkward" than a shorter shaft, but I believe the benefits outway the negatives. The only thing you lose with the long thai style shaft is leverage. With the backwater being shorter, I do feel like I can pry and dig in more when compared with the thai shaft. The shorter backwater shaft doesn't flex as much. In your situation, I think the thai kit would be better. If you're running shallow sand bars, the surface piercing prop of the thai kit will continue to grab and go while the backwater kit will lose traction as you run out of water until it can get fully submerged again. Also, the thai kit rides in the wake behind the boat so that means that the prop is at or above the surrounding water level. With the backwater kit and the shorter shaft, the prop rides below that wake, almost in the low trough behind the transom. This can put the prop well below the bottom of the boat where it is more likely to kit submerged objects. Stainless props are now available for the thai kits so that is also another option if you end up going through too many aluminum props. One thing that will help when traversing long sand bars is doing it at the right speed. First, you have to be on-plane, but you don't want to be going too fast because that will lay the wake down behind the boat. You want to go fast enough so that you have good speed, but still have enough of a wake behind the boat so that the prop continues to get as much water as possible. If it's just a short sand bar, you can just go full speed and slide across.

[@sbranham86]

I run my beavertail longtail with half prop in the water at times and it still pushes my boat. I prefer the shorter styles. Ditched my swamp runner with no regrets. Not bad just not for me

[@victorescobar3396]

muy lindo proyecto, Felicitaciones desde Paraguay Concepción saludos

[@JTgatoring]

It was a fun project, thank you for watching. Paraguay Concepción, thats a long distance away. Do you have "longtails" there?

[@nicklubow1147]

Good review! I have tried a Thai kit and was not a fan. Looking into backwater as an option. Have you ever looked at the stump jumper longtail kit?

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you Nick. I have not looked into stump jumper kits. I have heard of them and know about them, but never really thought of them as a viable option. To me, this kind of purchase (mud motor) is something that I want to work, and know will work. I like to stick with things that have been around a while, parts are easy to get, with a lot of people running them so if I run into an issue I can easily solve it due to someone else having experienced that same issue. If it was something I would want to tinker and play with, then maybe. But for the general population, if you want an American-style longtail kit, backwater is the go-to, and if you want a Thai-style kit, swamp runner is the go-to. If you tried a thai longtail and it wasn't a swamp runner, then you didn't try the right one. What was the reason for not liking the thai kit?

[@ronnie918644]

Im planning on buying a swamp runner kit-- Unless I can find a friend with a metal lathe I can use. Then I will Build my own totally designed for my area setup. Im one hell of an engineer and fabricator. I have all the equipment to build my own EXCEPT A METAL LATHE !!! CANT HAVE EVERYTHING I GUESS -- I keep looking : )

[@JTgatoring]

Thats a real task building your own! I would say give the swamp runner kit a try, if it doesn't accomplish what you need, take notes on the design flaws, see if you can improve the kit and if not sell it to recoup some money and then build your mud motor with the experience you got from running the kit. I like the idea of the kit because you have access to the parts if something breaks instead of having to fab a part. I'm interested in what you end up doing how it works. Keep me updated!

[@doinitwithjl5421]

I have heard good things about the newer style mudskipper kit. The one with the trim bolt and shaft supports. Any plans on trying one?

[@JTgatoring]

You may have to clarify a little more. Mud skipper has thai kits, Chinese kits, and then surface drive kits. For the thai kits, if you had to go with mud skipper, I would only go with the kits that have an adjustable engine base. His Chinese kits are the twister and a longtail style that's all one unit. Those are no bueno and sometimes you can find them on Alibaba. They may be fine for a cheap mode of transportation to move your boat from one place to another in open water light use, but I wouldn't trust it anywhere else. The surface drive kits I have not heard much about. Most people talk to me about longtails and not surface drives. After talker with other mud skipper owners, seeing discussions on forums and groups, and having my own experience, I am steering clear of mud skipper all together and that's what I recommend others do as well.

[@doinitwithjl5421]

@@JTgatoring The kits i am referring to are the custom kits. They have sealed bearings in the tail instead of the bushings and supports to take the load off the pto bolts.

[@JTgatoring]

@@doinitwithjl5421 Yeah that's the Chinese kit where you can find it or a similar one on Alibaba depending on when you look. Again, it is for light use. So if you're easy on things and you don't plan to be muscling it around, it may do fine, but I wouldn't trust it. It depends on what you're going to be using it for. Some people just want a cheap way to power their jon boat. Thats what this does. I like the thai longtail because it's simple and reliable. There are very few things to go wrong. I can rebuild the shaft out on the water in the swamp with minimal tools and parts. It will be able to get me back to the boat ramp. It takes time to get used too, and it takes some time to tune it in and people complain about that thai longtail being too handle heavy or awkward. If that's the case, then this kit may be for those people, but I've seen too many people get stranded with these kits. So to even consider recommending this kit, or let alone the brand selling it would not sit right with me. So no, I do not plan on ever mentioning that brand again on this channel, let alone the products they make.

[@ralphcantrell3214]

I have now seen you review and/or compare 4 long tail kits, and I think I'm gonna just plop down the extra dough for a decent surface drive even if I have to finance it. I'm into ease of install, trouble free operation, predictable performance, and most of all, the ability to churn a few miles in relative comfort. Apparently all long tails are unpredictable, very finicky to dial in, and worst of all, downright unpleasant to operate, at least for long periods. Thanks.

[@JTgatoring]

It all depends on your needs. A longtail can be very pleasant if you have patience. I can clamp my throttle lever down and take my hand off the tiller handle and it will track straight. When you get into weeds and grass I like the idea of being able to use the tail to reach out to water. With a surface drive, you only have what's right there at the transom. You can also cheat a little and use the longtail as a prybar to hop the boat if needed; depending on your load. The other good thing with a thai longtail is that you have the ability to twist the shaft to turn the skeg upside down. This is helpful when stuck on thick tussocks. Normally the top part of the tussock is too dense to penetrate since you can't get enough leverage to get you're skeg through it to get to water. So flipping the skeg out of the way allows the prop to eat through till you get to the water. Once you reach water you are normally good. With a thai longtail, you need to be familiar and in tune with your rig. If you don't have the patience or care, then a surface drive may be the correct choice for you. If you're stuck in mud and grass, either way, you're getting a workout in no matter a longtail or surface drive. A thai longtail is not for all people.

[@ralphcantrell3214]

@@JTgatoring I live on the southwestern-most edge of Appalachia, right where the mountains succumb to the large commercial rivers of the Greater Mississippi Delta. When I make a final decision and purchase a kit, {I already own a Predator 212 with only about 2.5 hours of run time), the purpose of my 12 foot mud motor rig will be to navigate miles of small, mostly gravel bottomed creeks, rivers and streams in my area that are more commonly explored by paddle craft in a downstream-only trajectory. Mud and excessive vegetation are never a problem. I will see mostly silty water that is 2-8 feet deep with the possibility of hidden stumps and logs, but there will also be some very short stretches of shallow shoals 4-12 inches deep with mostly gravel bottoms. Though exceedingly rare, there will also be the possibility of a shallow, underwater rocky ledge here or there, which can always be seen in advance and avoided one way or another, even if I must wade a few feet and pull the boat along by the bow rope. I have a nice, 6 HP water cooled Japanese outboard that currently serves this purpose, but I must be so careful with it that it sometimes takes away from the experience. Cheers!

[@JTgatoring]

@@ralphcantrell3214 Well the good thing about the 212 is that even if you decide to get a longtail, they don't have enough weight to wear you out. If it's not tuned and you're fighting it while running, yes it will wear you out. As you described above, a surface drive wouldn't be bad. The only issue is if you end up hitting a ledge, stump, or other object that stops your prop suddenly, and you end up breaking a gear or a belt. Or run an aluminum prop to help minimize that. For a longtail it would be a new prop since most run aluminum. I would say this; if you plan on being on plane more than you are idling, a longtail would be better. If you plan to idle around more, then the surface drive would be better. You have to bear the weight of the longtail's tailweight at idle but once on plane it balances out and is effortless, but with a surface drive, it is always effortless but you may lose a couple MPH and my back-up parts bag would be a bit bigger.

[@ralphcantrell3214]

@@JTgatoringWOW! Okay, I am starting from scratch here and really appreciate you taking the time to share that with me. I didn't want to go in blind and have to make uninformed decisions. I can idle around with the outboard I have now, but really don't want to do so. The purpose of the mud motor is to allow me to pick up the pace. I'm gonna be mostly running along at speed to get to the best, most secluded swimming/fishing/picnicking/camping spots, and then running back. I sounds like a long tail is in my future. I'm glad too, as they are more available, look less complicated to build, and are less expensive. It is not a big deal that I will need to dial it in. Cheers!

[@JTgatoring]

@@ralphcantrell3214 No worries. If you'd like a second opinion or have another question let me know. I look forward to hearing how your journey ends up. Best of luck!

[@HomeOnTheRanges]

When’s the American made JTgatoring kit coming out? Lol

[@JTgatoring]

Haha don't tease me... I'd like to have my own machine/fab shop and I would like to play around with it. I think I would be better off playing with boat design first

[@HomeOnTheRanges]

@@JTgatoring well wherever you end up I’m excited to follow the channel! I think you’ve sold me on a swamp runner kit

[@JTgatoring]

@@HomeOnTheRanges I greatly appreciate the support jrange1227. The swamp runner has been the best kit so far. We'll see if a better one comes along. The videos will continue. They may come out slow for now, but they'll never stop.

[@willhowell1874]

Your hand will stop going numb after a while. It’s just something it’s not use to. My 25kholer vtwin on a godevil crane did the same thing to me from the start. Now I can run that thing all day and my hand is fine

[@willhowell1874]

You should test out a PPF and a godevil. Then copperheads

[@JTgatoring]

I was wanting to test out a PPF but they only make a kit for a 6.5hp engine, and at that price, its just too much money and not enough benefit when compared to a thai kit. A GoDevil longtail would be nice to test out, and I have heard of copperhead surface drives being one of the lightest and fastest surface drives along with mud walker. One day I'll be able to afford them and test them out. I'll also need a bigger boat too hahaha

[@cdp50359]

Great video bro

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you C Price. I checked the valve lash of the engine and it was spot on. I changed the oil & spark, and checked the air filter along with checking the idle screw and some other small stuff. I'm going to go out with it one more time to see if that vibration gets better or not. If not I'll swap on the swamp runner and see if the vibration persists or not.

[@cdp50359]

@@JTgatoring I'm betting the backwater kit just isn't balanced. I'd love to see what a swamp runner kit would do on my 40hp.

[@JTgatoring]

@@cdp50359 Yeah I'd like to exhaust the options that I can just to make sure for the vibration. I would be interested in that too. A 40hp longtail would be interesting to see on an American style boat

[@cdp50359]

@@JTgatoring my 1655 (16 long, 55" bottom, true flat bottom) with 500# of cargo, plus trolling motor, 12 gallon gas tank full and a battery ran 25 mph

[@JTgatoring]

@@cdp50359 Thats a wide boat. Seems like pretty good speeds for it though

[@led8541]

Very cool

[@JTgatoring]

Thank you led8541, glad to see you back on the channel. Thanks for the 3+ years of support 👊

[@jonathanmilazzo3096]

What size boat do y my have

[@JTgatoring]

this boat is a 1436 riveted jon boat made by alumacraft

[@aroldoluismaciel1921]

Argentina , muy bueno , no hablo inglés , lo voy a copiar , dame las , medidas , par hacerlo , gracias amigo impecable

[@tylerw1418]

Check out PPF mud motors. I’m thinking of getting one soon.

[@JTgatoring]

I was thinking of testing them out also, but they only make a kit for 6.5hp engine. The issue is that the 6.5hp engine just doesn't have enough torque to really power through grass and you need every ounce of power you can get. Thats why I think the Thai kit is the way to go with a 6.5hp engine. Especially for the price... the thai kit is inexpensive and it has a more efficient drive train design. I'm sure its a quality product, but the price different is really big and I find it hard to overcome that hurtle for that engine size, unless I'm overlooking something?

[@tylerw1418]

JTgatoring ah. I agree with all those points my ONLY problem with the tai kits compared to the PPF is the weight and how the woodduck is designed to pop on and off easily. I don’t trailer my John boat I just put it in my truck bed. So being able to pop the motor off and slide it in my bed is a huge selling point in my certain circumstance. I only use a 1232 for my Jon boat. No casting deck or any other real weight in there.

[@JTgatoring]

@@tylerw1418 I'm not sure what the weight difference is, but the fast removal of the thai longtail is quite easy. Loosen the two wing bolts on the coupler housing and pull the 85" shaft out of the coupler and put it in your boat, on the roof rack, or inside the vehicle or truck bed and then remove the nut on the gimbal and pull the engine off the boat. The transom bracket can stay there on the boat, and the engine can go inside the vehicle or in the bed. Easy removal and just as easy to put it back together

[@tylerw1418]

JTgatoring I’ve never seen that or heard of it. Thanks. If you ever get the tai on if you showed that process that would help me and I’m sure anybody else with the same dilemma. Lots of us carry Jon boats in the bed. Anyways thanks for the reviews buddy. Keep it up

[@JTgatoring]

@@tylerw1418 Yes sir, I do need to run my 6.5hp longtail so I may end up putting that on. Its a lot easy to move then the 13hp engine. I'll go ahead and make a video on it once I remove the backwater kit. I use to fit the 1436 and the 6.5hp in my truck bed. Thanks for supporting the channel boss hog 👊

[@tylertudor6920]

I’m on my second backwater engine which I order it and the reason for the vibration is the single cylinder engine any single cylinder engine does that. The v twin is much better not much vibration Also the vibration is not that bad You might be over exaggerating a bit talking about only being able to run it 10 min.

[@JTgatoring]

This is just my experience with the kit. Not over-exaggerated. I ran this same engine on multiple thai kits and it didn't vibrate as bad as the backwater kit has. That's putting different props on and playing with weight distribution. It's my honest experience and everything is on video.

[@B-Rad890]

What’s your thoughts running that on a riveted boat?

[@JTgatoring]

You would have to re-enforce the transom as I have. It puts a lot of torque on the transom. With this 1436 riveted jon boat that its on now, I would not feel good about it without the bracing. Even with what I have, I don't feel good about it and that why I'm in the process of rebuilding my transom

[@joeperez955]

So in the final decision sps or backwater?

[@JTgatoring]

If you have a single cylinder engine, I would go with the sps. The backwater had way too much vibration for me. I would think the vibration on the backwater kit would decrease having a v-twin engine but I do not know for sure. I think the backwater comes into play when you start to get into boats wider than 48" when the sps can no longer be used, but you still want to have a longtail mud motor. The backwater would be go for low speed and heavy timber with tight areas, where the sps is great at speed and also does very well in heavy vegetation.

[@2ndrambo1]

I think you give up speed for strength and lower end power for getting out of mud etc. Def think it could be a regional choice as well. If you have more grass/ weeds perhaps the cheaper kit would work but I would say once you add in stumps , rocks and think mud... I’d say give up the speed for ability to get in. I would be curious to put a predator 22hp on that kit. I had thought about getting that kit and doing that. I know they don’t advise that but it think it would be “ok”. Thing is over built to start with.

[@JTgatoring]

Yeah it is a give and take situation and I agree with the regional/topographical choice as well. The vibration was just too much for my liking so I would really only feel okay recommending this backwater kit for the v-twin engines hoping it would cut down on vibration. I would think the shorter shaft of the backwater kit would be more kind in thick timber and crowded areas. Its personal preference. As long as you get back to the boat dock that's all that matters.

[@nickboehm7667]

@@JTgatoring I can't tell you why, but I had a Predator 22 V-Twin on the large Backwater V-Twin kit and it vibrated the handle a LOT. I switched over to a Briggs Vanguard 23 and there is almost no vibration at all. Truly no idea why that is but there is a definite difference.

[@JTgatoring]

@@nickboehm7667 Hmm... That is weird. I haven't had anyone tell me that before, that they had vibration issues with the v-twin kit. If its that finicky, between two engines, that weird. I know vanguard engines are supposed to be top quality and balanced, but most people go for the predator engines

[@azlongtales]

That crazy to had to chop off some engine shaft. You do listen to the comments from arizona desert 😆 🤣. Yea the vibration is most likely how solid and less flexy the backwater kit is and you take all the vibration instead of the kit. Which I dont think is a disadvantage on the Thai kits. Buildings and bridges are built to flex as well to prevent damage when they're environmental changes like earthquake and wind. Part of my passion for Thai kits is they're simplicity and room for modification to personal needs paired with cheap bullet proof honda clone engines are everywhere with no need for an expensive marine mechanic to keep you out on the water. If anything someone in the U.S. should build a Thai style kit they are not very mechanically complicated. I'm not sure at what price one kit could be reproduced at or if a mass production could keep the price down on a made U.S.A. kit?

[@JTgatoring]

Yeah I wasn't all to happy with cutting of the engine PTO shaft and the vibration is downer for me. Thai kits are great, and I don't have an issue purchasing a Thai made kit. They have been building and perfecting these things for many years. I buy US products when I can, but a specialty tool like this, I'd rather buy it from the place of origin which just so happens to be Thailand, and its "American" companies that are the dealers so it helps out everyone. I did some maintenance to the engine so I'm going to test out the backwater again, and then put the swamp runner back on and see how things go.

[@azlongtales]

@@JTgatoring did you do a dry/wet compression test as well on your 420 predator?

[@JTgatoring]

@@azlongtales No, not yet. If I do I'll put it in a video or on social

[@therapyistheoutdoors3188]

Do you like the sps or the backwater better??

[@JTgatoring]

Right now the backwater has too much vibration and I can't drive it for more than 10 minutes without my hand going numb so right now I prefer the swamp runner. I'm trying to see if I can fix the vibration issue. The swamp runner also goes a lot faster too

[@clayton203]

👍🏻

[@JTgatoring]

👍

[@bowagoner9877]

JT i will save you some time . I have owned both a go devil and mud buddy longtail set up with a single cylinder motor and it will work you to death. They are so heavy built they weight about 100# bare frame and do not steer easy. you can never sit and drive or turn in a hurry. I am not here to bash them just telling my experience with them.

[@clayton203]

Do you have any longtail at this time and if so which one did you go with

[@bowagoner9877]

@@clayton203 I don't have one anymore I went to a go devil surface drive for ease of use.

[@clayton203]

Bo Wagoner I got ya

[@JTgatoring]

Hey Bo, I appreciate the feedback. Sometimes its hard to get the weight on some of those mud motors and you have to ask them about it. With having the tracer plate on the backwater, it drives and handles completely different when compared to a thai longtail that doesn't have a "cavitation plate". I don't really like it. As you said above, it makes it difficult to turn and pull the prop up out of the water in a hurry. Thanks again for your feedback Bo

[@clayton203]

JTgatoring have you ever had a problem with lite stuff like grass or Lilly pads breaking props,,small sticks,,surely they are not that tender are they,

[@bobbyfrullaney8014]

The bottom line is you get more bang for your buck with SPS rather than backwater and I can buy 5 prop for the price of 1 for backwater

[@JTgatoring]

I believe so. Everyone has their own use. For my use, the backwater just didn't make the cut. The swamp runner does what I need it to do. I'd like to put it to the test in the areas people say it won't go. I think it would be fun.

[@davidturner7040]

Man any time you gotta cut the shaft on your engine for get it. Modify the kit to fit the engine not the other way round. That's bad design in my opinion

[@JTgatoring]

That's how I felt about it. Maybe that'll change though. I agree with you.

[@gigizoubek4047]

Poor kit. Would not buy.