DO FARANGS CARE ABOUT "FACE" IN THAILAND?

[@daviddonnelly2700]

Pat I have lived here 25 years. I would not equate the issue of Thai face to the English word and concept of 'credibility'. I think the English word and concept of 'image' is much closer to the mark. It's about how other's perceive you. Credibility to my mind goes to honesty and integrity. Image here can be mostly a manufactured facade and defended at all costs. Credibility seems woefully unimportant. Owning a Mercedes goes to image (face) and has virtually nothing to do with credibility. Anyway that's been my experience the many decades I have lived and worked here. I appreciate your hard work and all your videos.

[@grantbangkok]

good comment

[@Neednoy2]

Spot on !

[@ATIWatchReviews]

completely agree, its about the facade (fake social image) not your actual qualities/credibility.

[@tonyt3654]

I think Mrs Bucket from Keeping up appearances is a good example and there isnt a thai in sight !

[@richardlau6131]

I agree with your comment that “face” in Thai does not equate to “credibility” in English. But let’s thank Pat for yet another informative and entertaining video, presented in his inimitable debonair style. I enjoy his choices of music tracks too.

[@reread2549]

In Northeast Thailand where I live with my wife part of the year. I see it as two different ladders. My wife, my Thai mother-in-law and her father are on one ladder. I am on another ladder as a Farang. The expectations of me are not as high as the expectations of my wife and her family. By financially providing a house for my wife and attending functions at temple. I have done more than what is expected so I maintain face, but again I will always be Farang and never be on the same ladder as my wife and her mother. I try to make sure that I do not lose face because it would reflect poorly upon my Thai family, But the family does get a certain level of out because I am Farang. One of the most important things you can do as a Farang is not lose your temper. Losing your temper shows you are of a weak mind and you will be judged poorly.Thank you for the video it was very enjoyable

[@miketzai9209]

Hi yes not to loose the temper is a good thing, but i think that's something we have to learn in other way its not good to keep things inside, atleast for to long time, what i do if its possible, i go for a walk alone, or i be silence for some times, because then i not say or do something that isn't necessary to say or do. Stay safe Rak Thais RAk Thailand samer

[@reread2549]

@@miketzai9209 Meditation and a good brisk walk always help

[@miketzai9209]

@@reread2549 yes if the mood is bad when y begin to walk, then its much more better after a good walk. Stay safe Rak Thais RAk Thailand samer

[@boxcartwilly]

A humble person does not care about losing face, just making sure those around them are ok.

[@andrewhodge1847]

Another part of "Face" with Thais is they have a problem admitting when they are wrong, or should I say they will Never admit it. They will argue ,change the subject or even try and turn it back onto you rather than admit they have made a mistake or they are wrong . I have got used to this after 16 years of marriage to a Thai and work around it but it is frustrating.

[@silverfox6883]

Just like a woman …

[@steffensuuronen]

Yes, good example is with car accidents that are reported. They always seem to blame brake failure, bad weather or another person. Never admit to mistakes and take responsibility.

[@TheBodiesInTheWaterBeckons]

What you said is pretty much what's wrong with modern day "note worthy" people in the West these days already though. I think the "face culture" has already wormed its way into the West, especially with politicians, celebrities, corporations a.k.a the elites. When they made mistakes or lie and got caught, they always gets extremely defensive, antagonistic and arrogant, they never take the responsibility that they should and will flame anyone whose dare raise a voice at them.

[@hypnotechno]

isn't that rather pathetic? A friend of mine characterised Thailand as being absolutely devoid of "accountability"

[@jimshelley8831]

It's like when I first arrived here , went into a department store and the Thai staff tried to avoid me , because they did not speak English. Not an issue for me as I am the foreigner ,but all I wanted, was to buy a towel 55555.

[@jiminhart]

Those of us from English-speaking faranglands have a disadvantage in understanding the concept of face because the English verb is only to lose face or save face. Since we don't really have a notion of gaining face, I think we tend to over focus on the negative aspects of face culture. It took me a long, long time to grasp that the benefit of gaining face is just as significant as the danger of losing it. Giving a Thai friend the opportunity to show in front of others that they can speak English, for example, may be providing an opportunity to gain face. The trick lies in being able to read whether your friend is up for it. If not, they might lose face as pointed out in the video. I learned not to address my Thai partner in English when we were out and about because it made him anxious. By contrast, another friend, a scholarship Chula graduate risen from a Thonburi slum, was only too happy to gabble away at high volume in every public setting, and presumably gained face by it.

[@BangkokPat]

I made errors like this as an english teacher, and came across many instances where I shouldn't have put that person on the spot, but I learned and adapted eventually.

[@Livingabroadalex]

Excellent video Pat.

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks Alex.

[@ostevoostevo1592]

As you know Pat, I live in Taiwan. Face is incredibly important here, too. There are many ways of gaining and losing face.It's best to avoid causing local people to lose face. The worst thing you can do is embarrass a local person.You may feel initially you have "won", but ultimately you will lose. It's a good idea to give a local person face by praising him /her. Bad idea to openly criticize him/her. Being kind and generous is a great way to gain face. Being mean or stingy will guarantee a loss of face.There are various kinds of face. Driving a Ferrari will gain superficial face. Everyone will know. But being a genuine, kind, caring and genuine person will gain greater face. But above all. Don't put a local on the spot.Causing him/her to admit they don't know something or were to blame for something will cause massive loss of face and potentially gain you an enemy.I think Westerners really need to learn about face in the East and take it seriously. As a PS...Don't criticize co-workers, specially local co-workers. It can cause them to lose face ,thus gaining you an enemy. It will cause you even more loss of face.The boss will think of you as a brown-noser and so will your co-workers.No matter how inefficient someone is, don't point it out ! Would you like it if someone openly pointed out your fuck-ups ? Bottom line is , be nice and praise people even if they don't exactly deserve it if you want to get along in the Far East.Telling people their English is great, even if it isn't. Telling someone how handsome/beautiful/smart/cool/desirable/ great etc they are will gain both you and them face.Be nice and generous. Help people. Praise them . Be a good husband , father ,provider , member of society. Don't be an obvious slob( even if you are one ! ) Play the game. This is sounding like Jordan Petersen's 12 rules...Get that face !

[@cz2301]

Pat, i’ve been watching some of your old videos and those where you discuss about alcoholism, face and other aspects of everyday life are being missed more recently. It’s nice to hear your opinions and making polls and expressing your sarcasm towards whoever deserves it. Come on man, make some new videos like these for us! Cheers!

[@BangkokPat]

Next video....

[@BloobleBonker]

Great little video Pat. Open ended question isn't it? We farangs live with the face issue every day until we get numb to it. Nice to be reminded!

[@roboticeye]

Experience as a teacher has put in a position where Thais, that normal people visiting never get to see, play a game of passive aggressive politics. They expect to be the boss in every situation including, but not limited to your classroom. I never attack them when they target me. What I do is be smarter than them, keep a paper trail, explain my process to everyone who listens, let the students know why I'm working the way I am etc. When a Thai teacher comes to class and tries to pull some bullshit, the students, who would prefer to be more than their simple local history, work for me as a mini army against stupid behavior. The main idea is to 1. lead by example . 2. get support from as many like minded thinkers as possible, and 3. Be the person who is right and play the underdog. Playing the face game is ok if you're just wanting to live here and let things be and it doesn't add negativity to your day long term, but working here means you're stuck with passively battling it. The younger generation in Bangkok are kind of fed up with old thinking and face games even though they're stuck in it and have to play into it.

[@BangkokPat]

I would just make sure that my students enjoyed the classes and could see a big difference in teaching methods between me and their Thai teachers. I encouraged them to ask questions, interact and have fun. As you say this generation are fed up with the old style. It's been over 2yrs for them not having to attend school and be odedient, brainwashed and dictated to.

[@bigmick562]

@@BangkokPat Thailand is very 'evangelical' and pushy about it's image in the world, scratch the surface and the slap soon flakes off😄😄

[@SheshankReddyS]

What I really loved was how beautifully this video was shot. The selection of locations and each carefully framed shot were pure delight. Thank you.

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks, I wanted to bring a bit more to these type of videos (expat issues vids) just like my exploration/history videos.

[@SheshankReddyS]

@@BangkokPat much appreciated.

[@CrapKerouac]

Having lived in Japan, I found the younger generations slowly growing out of face. They seem more flexible, and open-minded, unlike the boomers, so maybe Thailand will change in time. How did they get there, possibly exposure to other cultures? The internet helped, I'm sure. Time will tell.

[@andrewmack2161]

There's a certain amount of 'face/respect' everywhere in the world but it does seem to be a choking factor in the less developed countries and seriously so in Thailand. Whilst good ideas being ignored (or really bad ideas being pushed through) just because the big boss didn't (did) think of them, is a world-wide problem, but it seems to be much stronger in Thailand and isn't helped by the lack of critical thinking in many of those in authority.

[@ianblack3181]

i have just watched all your videos and would just like to say i loved them , what a change from the usual garbage about what bars are open in pattaya , i cant wait to get back to my favourite city but due to this bullshit flu and now a potentially nuclear war god only knows when this will be , i cant wait to explore all the places i have seen in your videos i have never been before, keep up the great work

[@lawrencelawrence3920]

I made one guesthouse clerk lose face in Bangkok. I stayed at this guesthouse for a few weeks and I established good relations with the receptionist, at least I thought I did. Then on the day that I was checking out, she presented me the bill. I thought that it was high, so I asked for a detailed account of the bill. The cook came to the reception counter and said these are the receipts for my meals. I told her that I did not eat at her restaurant. The receptionist became embarrassed and quickly said, oh just forget about it. I didn't say anything and just checked out. Since I know the owner of the guesthouse I could have complained to him but I did not want anyone to be reprimanded and lose their job.

[@BangkokPat]

Best to just leave it alone. You'll never win.

[@PsychicLord]

There is another aspect of 'face', which is to do with how you speak to a Thai person in front of others. If the Thai person feels that you have embarrassed him (even if you think you have not) in front of others, you will certainly 'feel' a coldness and get harsh looks. My partner is Thai, and I have had to learn the hard way about how to approach certain scenarios to avoid inadvertently causing him to lose face. Once you are aware, then this is not really a problem.

[@rhizomorph-music]

So if an overreaction to the perceived indignity of a trivial embarrassment causes a loss of face, and a loss of face will also result in a defensive overreaction (to that) which could then also cause further loss of face, it appears to be a circular syndrome. The whole Thai notion behind face loss seems to be "Don't you dare embarrass me or diminish my reputation in any way, because I will lose my mind. The integrity of my image in the eyes of others is exquisitely fragile, and you have a duty to never put it in the slightest peril," whereas the western mindset seems to be the polar opposite: "I'm an island. I'm confident in my own self-assessment and I know who I am, regardless of what others think of me-so go ahead and laugh at me, I don't care. I'm not insecure." Of course, this western indefatigability obviously doesn't prove true a lot of the time, as we can see in all the road rage incidents and "you disrespected me" murders in the US, Canada, Europe. Conversely, the Thai fear of a degradation of reputation is probably way, way overblown in most cases.

[@BangkokPat]

Interesting point made, shows the gulf between east and west clearly.

[@Ned88Man]

wow, this was well put, especially your last two sentences. Sometimes I think as westerners we overplay the notion of face and tend to think of it as a solely Thai or asian attribute.

[@mmaranta785]

I think it’s when you ask a Thai person for directions and they don’t know but they point you in some random direction anyway. It would help me more if they said they didn’t know.

[@BangkokPat]

Or if they have something in stock and they're too lazy, it's ''no habb''

[@Ned88Man]

never had that issue which is really funny, because I hear people talk about this one a lot. In fact, not long away, my wife and I were looking for a specific temple, couldnt find it and asked a someone. They straight up said "I dont know, I am not from around here"

[@kevinrobinson2745]

Top Draw Production Pat. Content also very informative, and interesting.👍👍

[@ThailandFoodWalk]

I don't know about farangs losing face but I've met lots of farang that try and gain face here. The amount of times I've met new people and they talk all about themselves without even being prompted I must add. I've got this and that qualification, I was this and that back in farangland. I'm so good at this and that, my family are very powerful influential Thais, I have connections high up yawn yawn yawn! Maybe they think they're impressing people and gaining face with such tales, but it comes across as borish, see through and insecure. The biggest offenders in my personal opinion are TEECHERS!

[@roboticeye]

Maybe it doesn't impress you, but in the local culture, that's all they do is boast about their qualifications, take pictures of them doing things related to their interests, and basically cram their credentials in until they're noticed. Add some Thai teachers to your facebook and see how many certificates and badges they post from week to week or pictures of teacher Developmental meetings. It's borish to you because that's not our normal culture, but if you don't try to shine here, they neglect you and you find yourself in a school being praised by students and families while the borish person gets handed opportunities and better classes and times. I've seen a lot of good, friendly teachers get pushed into Physical education english classes that were impossible to teach because they weren't as "bright shining in the spotlight" as others. A good teacher needs to be their own PR here. You gain nothing by just being. Yeah, i learned that lesson when I had the same opinion you did. I changed my tune when I saw bad teachers with good personal PR move up and good teachers not get a new contract. Having the right look, physically and metaphorically, is the way to win the face game. We just look like assholes to other westerners.

[@ThailandFoodWalk]

@@roboticeye Seen it done it got the t-shirt. My own way works just great because there are more ways to skin a cat my friend, after 27 years you learn a thing or too :-)

[@jonhobson3592]

Great video and a good question asked ..

[@nitinandkongsiri3267]

Thailand is sometimes difficult to understand but it a nice place to live in.Your channel has many interesting facts and view of interesting places.

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks a lot!

[@BloobleBonker]

A related issue. A lot of us make great efforts to learn to speak Thai as correctly as we can, but are disappointed that Thai males feel very uncomfortable to speak Thai with us and insist on speaking English, even if this reduces the ability to communicate. Female Thais, however, don't normally have this problem. I've come up with lots of theories about this, mostly relating to face. Do you have any insights? Btw I'm talking about posh Thai men. Waiters and taxi drivers are no problem.

[@modellbleu2294]

I think it is because they want to "show" face be letting everyone in earshot know they speak more than one language.

[@destinationsroadslesstraveled]

Had it happened with more than a few Thai women mostly between the ages of eighteen to thirty. Odd how they don,t understand you until you insult them. Good, now I got your attention my Thai spoken is just fine if a ninety-year-old grandmother can understand me you should also.

[@martynbush3462]

Lovin' your work Pat. With the possible exclusion of the feline joke!

[@Vikinglawson]

That was my favourite part 😂

[@Neednoy2]

Pat, please pin David Donnelly's comment. It is very accurate in explaining the meaning of FACE in Thailand.

[@BangkokPat]

Ok I'll find it and pin it. You're right, it's a good explanation.

[@Paul_G_Eats]

another great video Pat 👍

[@BangkokPat]

Cheers Paul mate.

[@bigimpactbooks9358]

An excellent introduction into the enigma of 'face': how it is gained and lost. The abandoned Hopewell train link from the airport is an example of the high cost of failure to understand the central role of face.

[@frankmaeder4358]

As a young naive guy, I did not really know nor care about face. as a consequence, I lost face two or three times, once really big. The consequence of that was to me really shocking, a wall of silence, an utter feeling of exclusion, people turning their back o me.... that was a lesson for life. since then, though myself not really concerned, i did not lose face anymore, and its far better that way when you are there.

[@AnotherMike2]

This is my second time watching this video. This was one of my favorites so far. Always feels like a BBC quality production and I mean that as a high compliment. No matter what the numbers show you, please keep doing your thing Pat. This Face topic is nuanced and very well explained. This comment section is also full of life experience with Face as well. I think of Face as Pride, personally.

[@ian-wu2bb]

Amazing vlog man . Such a proffesional vid .

[@BangkokPat]

Glad you liked it Ian, cheers mate.

[@trzagor2769]

Thanks for that objective information about Face in Asia. In the middle east and Africa you'll hear the word Honour in similar case. Either way, saving face or preserving ones honour are usually devoid of logic with rigid focus on shielding a fragile ego.

[@rexprestonstoner4612]

An important topic which you've handled Bangkok Pat with an appropriate level of seriousness. This is an important - and unwritten - "code of conduct" which, if one treats with disdain or simple casualness, will cause one a lot of personal havoc. Well done and thanks!

[@markt1563]

Great video mate.

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks Mark.

[@mrslcom]

Face is equivalent to respect, which is very important in Thai culture, especially in a public setting. Any confrontation is best handled privately and most problems can be resolved that way.

[@iainglasgow9633]

Pat enjoying your videos Iam in Isaac at the moment in time really good content

[@BangkokPat]

Port Isaac? Lovely place Iain.

[@davids736]

Hi Pat. I found your channel awhile back - although for reasons I don't need to get into, I didn't immediately feel like subscribing, but after watching a few more...... I've grown to quite like you mate! Not trying to be patronising, just a genuine comment. Anyway, one more subscriber here sir! And who knows, next time I'm in Thailand I can take you for a beer/coffee - cheers fella!!! 👍🙂❤

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks David, glad you found the time to subscribe!!!

[@adamhend3211]

Another great video Pat. I just returned home after 4 weeks in Thailand with my partner, we stayed in Thonglo for the last week at Centrepoint apartments, and I must say the drivers were much more courteous to pedestrians trying to cross the road than anytime before I've been in that area or any other area of Bangkok for that matter. Was the man who tried to sue the cleaning lady American. :)

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks Adam...Glad to hear you had a good 4 weeks here, as for drivers in Thong Lo, probably because those in Thong Lo have a higher education and have travelled so would know that pedestrians crossing the road are worth slowing down or stopping for. The guy was British by the way, thought he was the big shot was in reality things didn't work out...

[@JohnMitch]

As always another well made video. Appreciated

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks John.

[@sonsen25]

Great video

[@kongswethai3964]

" เกรงใจ " is thai phenomenon thats hard to grasp for many farangs

[@BangkokPat]

It still is for me, I left out so much due to my inability to be able to explain it clearly.

[@kongswethai3964]

@@BangkokPat yes, it's a word, expression, feeling, that's impossible to translate with just one word 555

[@williamhartz8707]

I have worked in Thailand 14 years and now retired. How I wish I had been informed how this “saving Face” tradition along with other cultural behaviors worked in most Thai environments ( social or working). I personally feel the importance of not offending someone ( due to the “Face culture) slows down change and progress in Thailand. Example: You’re not to correct or make suggestions to your superior at the work place; thus, the same old process continues. Or… since you are younger, you wait to be told what to do by your older coworker; for, you don’t want to outshine him in the work place.

[@czthjvv]

Wait till you find out that third world cultures create third world countries 😎👌

[@Ned88Man]

I do think that being tactful about how you criticize is kind of important anywhere in the world.

[@dexterday]

I was a teacher in Thailand for 15yrs up until a few months ago. We were reprimanded if we came to work with suntans after maybe going to the beach at the w/end. Not a lot to do with face but crazy how the white skin is so important.

[@BangkokPat]

I can definitely believe that Nick, utterly ludicrious.

[@lukerabin5079]

I take the time to explain that the suntan to westerners is an important aspect of face, because only a wealthy, important person would ever be able to have the free time to lie in the sun doing nothing, because it takes so long for farang to become tanned. And that simple explanation while it is obviously incongruous to an Asian sensibility of not wishing to look like you work outdoors for a living, seems to explain to them our interest in having brown skin. I find that a simple explanation, of some of these different ways of seeing things seems to help bridge divides.

[@franciscusnuyts627]

I"ve met quite a lot of Filipinos/nas they where or still are English teachers ( Chula) !!!!!!! 🤨🤨🤨🤨

[@cpanui]

Great explanation on "Face". Clear, concise, simple. Some westerners just don't get the significance to Asians. BTW, Who writes your script? You never disappoint! Great scenery, editing, script writing, historical references and over all production. (I like the music too!)

[@keithd1219]

He does it all himself. The guy is simply amazing and his videography is in a different stratosphere of production quality on youtube...more like what you'd expect with high production costs on a network channel.

[@rhizomorph-music]

It's not obvious that he writes his own material? Why would you assume someone else is writing it for him? That's not at all the KZbin way. Most vloggers are self-contained.

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks a lot for the kind words. No scripts by anyone, I write rough notes then it develops as I'm at the location thinking of how to make it all come together in a simple way. This was a tough subject to make sound simple, quite daunting, a lot of dialogue got cut in case it was a bit offensive to Thais, none actually was but the name of the game is to offer a view that sounds unbiased otherwise you get people jumping on you accusing you of stuff (that's never happened). Location was chosen because I was already familiar with it and it's a place with good vibes. The people who live there give off warm vibes, probably because they have all moved into their first real homes after years living over the canal (literally)

[@BangkokPat]

I don't know any youtuber who has scripts, maybe some do but it'd only make it harder work.

[@cpanui]

@@BangkokPat Wow! Brilliant! If all that is done with "rough notes"...it's all the more impressive!

[@klausrain111]

In Thailand, if you're a farang, NEVER get into a fight with a Thai in public. If you do, make sure you lose. If you win, you will regret it. Maybe tomorrow, or next week, they will get you back, even if it takes six of them. Think about it. Thais are, I believe, very kind-hearted by nature although they show it differently. They tend to drive like nut-wagons, but get used to it and don't do road rage. Let it slide.

[@BangkokPat]

Absolutely right Richie, never met anyone foolish enough to do that Thank God, It can get ugly.

[@pogump]

I just enjoy so much to see and hear you talk about different things about Thailand Pete,and I talk with my Thai girlfriend about places and thing that you show in your videos,Pete it’s awesome :) :) :)

[@boltman6359]

Great channel -- 2 items of note 1. The school segment is spot on. Here in Hua Hin I've seen grade 5 homework from a "International" school that would barely be considered passable grade 3 or4 in the States. Buddy of mine says parents pay close to $16000/US/yr. What a joke 2. The face/status thing I find happens all over the world. If youlive in Beverly Hills or Malibu go buy a Honda instead of a Bently or Rolls Royce. See the looks you get then---no difference.

[@BangkokPat]

Hope the video lived up to your expectations Sean, I loved HK but only in small doses.

[@yamawowlai]

Khun Pat, kindly boost the volume while you record that would be great.

[@BangkokPat]

Damn, I played with the volume a lot here, thinking it was too low. new laptop, haven't balanced the levels between using programs and general master volume. Sorry!

[@JC-lu4se]

This topic used to bug me a lot in Vietnam. I always thought that face meant neither party was made to look stupid. However, if a Vietnamese person made a mistake, the mistake was blamed on the foreigner in order to "save face". I think the concept of face is better in Japan, where any mistake doesn't have an owner, whilst in Vietnam at least, blame is always given to the non-Vietnamese person. Same in Korea where this is "Korean culture" to blame foreigners.

[@ATIWatchReviews]

My ex Thai Gf of 7 years explained it to me the same as ThailandSmiles wife's video, which is very similar to the Philippine lady's saving face video (I think they are the most honest reflections of what the concept is). A form of lying in public and around social circles to save ones (and other peoples) perceived social reputation (which is at least one major aspect of 'face'). I don't think Westerners should be too bothered about it in complete honesty, because its a fairly ridiculous concept and Thai society would be far better WITHOUT IT (although you could argue all societies have it to some degree, but different things are more socially embarrassing in Asia compared to the West, such as admitting you made a mistake or the company is at fault because of poor service). Their acceptance of authority, the unfair status quo and lack of criticism of institutions and companies in general etc is a very bad aspect of their culture and means progress is hampered when things cannot be discussed openly and honestly due to the saving face concept. There's no way I care if I offend someone's 'face' if the criticism was honest and fair, and that goes for companies too. However, if you define being merely polite as a form of 'saving face', then of course I will honour that, but not other ridiculous aspects of it. In regards to whether the West's culture about saving face is better than Asias, I would say it is definitely. Lying in general is seen as a far more socially accepted thing in Asia (it being socially negative to admit defeat or mistake, thus being encouraged to lie), which contributes to the society in general being far more scammy/lying than in the West generally. Lastly, most Westerners cannot speak Thai and never will be able to even after living in Thailand for decades, so will never EVER feel culturally Thai or care significantly about Thai culture (rightly or wrongly), just like Thais in UK don't really care about English cultural norms etc. I think it would be ridiculous to expect farangs to understand or care about bizarre cultural norms, not even sharing any language similarities, and I would be surprised if Thais even applied their 'face' concept to non-Asians, who they must know do not have an immediately similar concept and are very different culturally.

[@Chai_Travel]

Thanks again Pat! Mate?! The temple of cats 🤣 that’s such a great temple for you 🐈 Odd how the school system works 😅 yeah I’m just using the word odd. Thanks again for a great video 🤗🙏🏼 cheers

[@grantbangkok]

good video mate

[@BangkokPat]

Cheers Grant mate.

[@charlessimmons7825]

Great vlog - IMO "face" will continue to hold back any entrepreneurial spirit with young smart graduates who cannot challenge a societal and corporate hierarchy and ultimately Thailand will be left behind as other Asian nations evolve - i.e. countries such as Vietnam - and we all have been left behind by Singapore a long time ago. Unfortunately I often find the concept of "face" in Thailand has been corrupted and is just used to cover up straight up lying and incompetency. A much abused system.

[@BangkokPat]

Spot on Charles. If only it could be explained and understood.

[@ThailandBound]

Nice video again.

[@BangkokPat]

Cheers Peter, hope you're all good mate.

[@fordguy61mi]

If you’re married to a Thai lady, you better care about face. Or have problems. It’s a huge thing to them. To me it’s about respecting their culture. If you don’t want to do that, why even visit there, much less marry a Thai woman. Just my opinion.

[@D.Appeltofft]

It's not respectful to adapt to a silly custom. It's condescending. I expect my thai wife to take responsability. She is improving and growing as an individual. As would Thailand as a nation if they got rid of the fear of doing a mistake, which is inevitable if you are trying to improve.

[@faifaa]

Here's my "face" story. I was hiring a Thai guy to replace my position (Project Manager), we offered a higher salary, and we had agreed on his terms, etc. I thought I would get a positive response quickly, but nothing happened. I later found out that his former position was also "Project Manager" in his previous company, and he couldn't be seen to move to the same position. So, I added one word "Senior" to the job title, and problem solved. LOL

[@lawrencelawrence3920]

I lost face to some hotel clerks in Bangkok by becoming angry and raising my voice to them. My excuse was that I was tired, they gave me a poor hotel room and they would not refund my money even though I refused the room. They upgraded my room after my fuss. My Thai girlfriend I think was embarrassed by my anger. After I got settled in I apologized to the hotel clerks. I really don't care that I lost my temper and lost face.

[@BangkokPat]

I've done that Lawrence, and I also got an upgrade , similar circumstances to yours! I also later apologised, but I didn't feel bad because I had genuine reason to make the angry phone call. I didn't confront them in person though!!

[@DickCheeseman]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me in BKK. Didn't apologise though

[@shane0traveller451]

Great advice and content 👌

[@KarmaCal57]

Kalawar Church. Located in Samphanthawong District, on the eastern bank of the Chao Phraya River. Another nice vid Pat ;) 🙏

[@destinationsroadslesstraveled]

I believe Saving Face (Sai Na) if my Thai is correct is often used as an excuse for Thais not being willing to take responsibility for their actions with a certain misdeed and often using it as an example the foreigner as a scapegoat. It has happened to myself more often than once and have to admit it gets old. You don,t need religion to realize when in some way big or small you have harmed another. So at times, I have no issue calling B.S on a Thai when it has gone over the top. Some foreigners might argue this is Thailand either deal with, let it go, or leave. I don,t believe that is the case and until foreigners grow a spine with that person you are only allowing them to continue jerking you around. Like dealing with a child, a time comes you need to learn to just say no. As with corruption, there are no excuses for having to pay a bribe as I did just a few days ago at immigration. The only reason I allowed it was a Thai family member caught Covid and I was concerned about my daughter. Otherwise, I would have no problem saying sorry either we correct the problem you claim I have with my paperwork or I go elsewhere. In the future I won,t allow that to happen again. On smaller issues, I do tend to just let it go. The negative aspect is the pent-up frustration because trying to save face can often lead to a deadly situation even between Thais. The fake social image you see everywhere even in America. The look at my new car or look at me is just shallow while your family suffers for example lack of food but hey look at my new car I can,t afford. Millions of Thais have fallen into the stupid image game. Maybe they learned it from us.

[@paulb5907]

hey pat im a new subscriber thanks for having me , i ve been living travelling and working in thailand for many years , can we have a video on how to call for help if you need it , lets say what number to call for ambulance , police or fire brigade , what to do who to call if i crash my car in the middle of know where this would be useful stuff, by the way nice shotsof the royal orchid sheraton hotel ive been staying there on and off for 16 years + love that area take it easy

[@brendanduffy2710]

Diplomatically done Pat 😎✌🇨🇷

[@BangkokPat]

Cheers Brendan mate.

[@TWCH]

I like to walk. I appreciate your sub title script confirming what I kind of knew from experience. There is a hierarchy amongst vehicles and pedestrians here. And pedestrians are at the bottom. I think Lamborghinis are at the top:)

[@jiminhart]

True. There are, however, even worse places for pedestrians. According to OECD stats, South Korea is where the most pedestrians are killed by motor vehicles. :(

[@BangkokPat]

Shame but yes that's the case Charlie.

[@Boddav]

Don't take yourself too serious, acknowledge another person's responsibility,give up your seat on public transportion, and return salutes.I will be working on Face as long as I am Asia .I will always make occasional mistakes. I will offend [unintentionally]and I will be offended.But I will be understanding and I will be understood by others.When these cycles end ,it is time to leave Thanks for the info.

[@beldarslament]

Thai-style "Face" is the graveyard of farang sanity. It's a daily minefield to navigate. Triply so if you're dealing with a bureaucrat of any type.

[@BangkokPat]

Some Thai companies have major problems with advancement and moving with modern times because of this face concept where the elderly senior staff run the show despite being out of touch by 50yrs. Younger staff have no choice but to prostrate themselves to them and accept defeat, and as a result hardly anything gets done.

[@beldarslament]

@@BangkokPat Oh, Pat. How I could go on and on. The "no fail" school policy. Children with real learning disabilities forced into mainstream classes. Thai libel laws. Face, face, face. More specifically to your comment, I would say you could substitute "politicians" or "government organs" for "companies" as well. I don't want to tell Thais what to do, but face is the one cultural trait I really think holds them back.

[@kevinthered1916]

I have to say...love the channel. You're delivery style is professional ,informative and funny. Thank you for the content 🙏. My wife is Thai from Samui and we plan to retire in the Kingdom next year from Canada. Keep up the good work mate. Do you ever go for a beer in the Royal Oak pub?

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks Kevin, for the kind words. I've had sunday roast at the Royal Oak and the odd beer, nice place when the music is live and so much better than it's predecessor, The Bull's Head.

[@kevinthered1916]

We always meet some of my wife's friends and their British expat Husbands. We are in BKK in May we might see you there ! Keep up the brilliant content

[@alho9231]

I'm two faced so losing one face is no biggie... 😉

[@richardhaughton4303]

Great video I’m enjoying your Bangkok journeys immensely, you mentioned you were Thai and English, is your mum Thai, you don’t have to answer but it’s interesting to me

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks Richard, yes my mum's Thai.

[@0547aa]

I believe the church shown is the Holy Rosary Church not far from the Marine Department.

[@BangkokPat]

Definitely. Are you resident in Thailand?

[@0547aa]

@@BangkokPat no but I was a frequent visitor before the pandemic. I am making plans to visit this coming December or January. Have a great week. Phil

[@nassimabed]

In the Arab culture it is about "preserving the water of the face". Except it's not inborn but earned through self respect, upstanding, courage, and the like. Mostly self respect. It's not a purely Thai or far eastern thing.

[@nassimabed]

Let me explain: for Arabs over the ages, nobody could make you lose face. It is how you behave yourself that determines whether you lose face or not. It's kind of a one way street. And no, material affluence could not possibly affect it. It's all intangibles and spoken words and mindset.

[@BangkokPat]

Every culture has it but it's about how seriously it's taken. From my experience it's taken particularly seriously here, it runs through everything.

[@iandann8788]

fascinating ,thank you though I did know about their idiosyncrasies . Status is important too ,money being helpful for the 'person of influence'

[@BangkokPat]

Status rules, as does money. But the complex web of face can be baffling at times. I covered a very small part of it here. If I revealed too much, some people could lose face.

[@steveaustin1984]

Pat please be careful around those cats. A tiny scratch can lead to your death, and that isn't an exaggeration. Rabies has killed 400+ this past year in Thailand and cats are one of the top three carriers.

[@martynbush3462]

Shit! I didn't know that. Get a rabies Jab Pat.

[@steveaustin1984]

@@martynbush3462 Please don't advocate for that. It is appropriate for high risk people, like vets or someone who has been scratched or bitten by an infected animal. The possible side effects aren't worth the risk for most people.

[@PREPFORIT]

Thank you. This answeres some questions I had.

[@davids736]

Ah, that crazy concept of 'face' in Thailand. I lived there for 3 years, and like so many other things in Thailand, still struggled to get my head around it. And it can get really serious if you create a situation that causes a Thai to 'lose' face. It never really bothered me, apart from the fact that if you ask a Thai person a question that they don't know the answer to, they will outright lie rather than just say "I don't know" - because that is a loss of face. And working in the other direction - even as a farang, you don't want to lose face yourself if you can help it. The main way is to lose your temper. Which is no bad thing, as I believe it can teach stressful people to calm down and take life a bit easier. Personally, I'm pretty chilled anyway - but have still had moments I've had to catch myself and say those immortal words "mai pen rai" - kinda translated as "no problem/take it easy"..... 👍 So, are you mixed-race Pat - farang/Thai I assume? I thought you looked half/half! Do you speak and/or write Thai? Your accent tells me London or Home Counties....? 👍🙂

[@BangkokPat]

Thanks David, I've lost it a couple of times, but not that badly, and I've managed to hold myself back and turn it into a joke, so I haven't looked totally insane. I'm Brit/Thai and I grew up in London. I don't write but can speak to an ability of about 60-70% I was raised in London without my Thai mum so I'm pretty much a Brit, didn't come to Thailand the first time until I was early 20s.

[@BangkokPat]

@Wayne Anthony Holmes No, she died when I was 11, hence my very British demeanour.

[@HaleRakDa]

I understand that car owners are 'superior' and I understand perhaps that we foreigners sometimes go too far the other way by expecting everyone to stop for us, however, Thailand has the second highest road deaths in the world and there are areas with no pavements, yet cars speed past pedestrians at high speed on narrow sois with no regard for saftey, this is an area for improvement, merley stating for us to use a footbridge when they are usually only on busy main roads is not the answer, they can learn as a society and get better on this concept.

[@Foodfriendfinder]

I'm probably guilty of it many times but then I always think Thai are very forgiving to us Farang..maybe because they know we feel entitled too..I remember once "blowing a gasket" ( getting angry) at my Thai neighbour for having a grass fire that reached our property and the plastic mesh fence caught fire and burned away..They were quite apologetic about it and offered to buy what is needed to correct and of course I said it's not necessary..It is what it is..I can't change..or change will be slow..and although I think we get along great with the neighbours..my wife says they don't want to piss me off..so maybe that's a good thing lol

[@BangkokPat]

I'm guilty too, more so back in the day I assumed that losing it would eventually get my message across, but it doesn't. I ended up making a fool of myself. I almost got beaten up by a lighting tech guy for something I hadn't even realised I had done. I'd said ''F**k'' under my breath as I walked past him because I was annoyed at the sound, nothing to do with him. He came up to me 2 mins later and said ''You...f**k you'' and had totally got the wrong end of the stick.

[@chrisnamaste3572]

@@BangkokPat Sounds like face causes fragile egos.

[@Tom-Yum-Gai]

lovely wander about ya had there :) For me, while the concept might be innocuous, like many things the way it's been mutated in LOS is um...bullshit. It's mostly an appearance thing. Ask directions? oh no, they would lose face to say "i don't know, sorry" so you'll get sent off with bullshit directions. Ask a teacher a question in class? you tell me, can this happen or is it a big no no as if teacher does not know he loses face. Every dat the gov and TAT make idiotic announcements, often contradicting each other or themselves. For ME this is a HUGE loss of face, but for them? not so much, although if I were to point it out, I expect I'd lose face big time. Face, you smile and say yes yes, CAN! then go about doing what ever it is you want to do in whatever way you like. Smile at everyone (are used car salesmen saving face or just being sneaky manipulative bastids?) The appearance is everything.

[@Vikinglawson]

Haha too funny. Foreigners experience face everyday here in Thailand, some see it, some don’t. When you learn about it, it can help to explain almost all situations that you will or have experienced.

[@BangkokPat]

Good point Nick.

[@spadebraithwaite1762]

It's a terrible thing but I got teaching gigs in China because I'm tall, white, born and raised in Oxford. I was actually quite good, but I only got the jobs based on my appearance and heritage. And I will do it again. People told me that Chinese people don't respect you if you lose your temper, but I saw more violent fist fights in a few years in China than I ever saw in ten years, working in pubs in England.

[@mmaranta785]

I was in Robinson in Chiang Mai looking for a DVD player that did not have Cinavia copy protection. The sales guy said that the DVDs would work on any DVD. I brought one in and played it waited 10 or more minutes and the Cinavia copy protection started working-I could not hear sound etc. anyway don’t throw away your old DVD and blu ray players-they don’t have Cinavia firmware on them

[@ian-wu2bb]

cool vid . I dont care too much about the now . I do love the past and the way you tell it.

[@BangkokPat]

I appreciate that! More history?

[@geoffclegg9494]

Maintaining face in Thailand. As you said ..."a hard nut to crack." I am frustrated at times with simple day to day situations. For example ...A family and friends gathering to go shopping. We all meet and sit around. The clock ticks by ...tick ...tick ...tick. Waiting ...waiting ...waiting. Me ...the falang in the room ...thinks ..."Let's go ???" The penny drops ...they are all waiting for someone to say ..."Pai lao khrap ...let's go". The falang in the room ...thinking ..."Let's get the finger out." ...stands ...and in broken thai says ..."Pai lao khrap" ...and like sheep they follow ...thinking ..."Falang :)"

[@liro_mngbt]

“Saving face” is indeed a strange strange concept…

[@BangkokPat]

Alien for some!

[@liro_mngbt]

@@BangkokPat INDEED. 🤯

[@snezanamarkanovic4261]

Love your vlogs dear

[@BangkokPat]

Thank you so much 😊

[@gabreiellawissell7310]

i buy you few drink in august in bangkok , ,,great video

[@Ippido]

"civilized west..." 😂😂😂😂😂 I'm sorry I cannot subscribe twice 👍👍

[@motot09]

Maybe that's why I have so hard to feel comfortable in Vietnam. They have taken it to a different level. Makes everything ten times harder than in Thailand, always a relief to get back 🤔 to a easier environment 🙏 in Thailand.

[@marcanthonyskidmore4131]

Face is outdated and should be ignored. We are living in modern times now and this should not matter.

[@mymidlifeadventures4248]

Good luck with that…

[@emmanuelespad]

Whoever is watching the video without subscribing or pressing the like button will lose face! 😂

[@dmbrod]

Face ties in with the Thai social hierarchy and each Thais perception of their place within it.Notice how some Mia Farang can have a very exalted view of themselves (because they married a Farang) and despite coming from a humble background consider themselves to have been elevated to Khunying status! 😀Bigger the Man bigger the Face!😁

[@dmbrod]

Face can also be regarded as due respect that is/or should be given and which is expected back in return.But who deserves respect/face in Thai society and how to determine that as a foreigner?

[@jiminhart]

Therein lies the challenge,@@dmbrod. Very tricky business, that.

[@nickhubbard3671]

Great vid - thanks. Face saving - same in Laos. It's all about being polite and respectable. Visiting a local official? Wear a shirt, not a tatty old, comfortable Beer Lao tee-shirt. 11:50 Holy Rosary Church sok dii!

[@terencegraham8414]

Was at the movies yesterday and the only people that stood up for the Kings anthem was older people. How times have changed, younger people making their opinions made known.

[@BangkokPat]

The whole concept is becoming a drag for the younger generation.

[@jimshelley8831]

I know it's of huge importance to Thai people but as a foreigner I could not care less.

[@johnsambrook1108]

Some of the Thai face issue is petty and highlights their lack of education and understanding of dealing with situations based on the conversation/Situation they are in. As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat but emotion plays a very big part and mix that with drugs/Alcohol then as a foreigner you are better off just walking away. That's not to say foreigners don't come with their own baggage and the way they were improperly raised or their stances on how things should be done. If you decide to live in a different country with different values than your own and can accept that premise you won't go far wrong

[@nn.roberts]

Thanks 😀 John, Norway.

[@BangkokPat]

Thank you John.

[@pablo_fe]

I'm worried now, about the school story 😂 I'm moving to BKK in August to teach in an international school.

[@BangkokPat]

You should be ok there, parents pay big money and expect actual results, I was mainly talking about regular schools.

[@pablo_fe]

@@BangkokPat That's good to hear. Loving all the videos, making notes about places to visit once there. All the best, Pat. 👍

[@Vikinglawson]

And cheers Pat me duck

[@BangkokPat]

Cats quite like the taste of duck

[@themergen1]

Sometimes. Business in Thailand is not easy to deal with. As far as the banana skin, general Thai rule is, " be careful".

[@bipolarpunt5721]

Letting a kid pass when they didnt do the work is setting them up for failure. I dont think I could accept this. My cognitive dissonance would be off the charts and I would have to quit.

[@BangkokPat]

It's a tough one to accept for sure. Many give up their jobs rather than play this game and I don't blame them.

[@VooDooMaGicMan81]

Just a branch of 'Ego' - they don't enjoy their ego taking a slip.

[@BangkokPat]

In a way, yes.

[@bigwaidave4865]

It means that as a foreigner even if a car or motorcycle hits you while you’re walking at a crosswalk with the green light you immediately apologize for not having jumped out of the way and offer to pay damages🤣☺️

[@miketzai9209]

No way

[@roboticeye]

@@miketzai9209 You're right. It's not true. People living outside of normal actual Thai life see them as simple kids with 2d rules, but you can walk across streets and people stop for you in the main parts of the city. People with cars, believe it or not, don't want their car broken or to be seen hitting someone. Thais have these dumb advertised rules that make people think it's a staple cultural trait and it simply isn't. Most of the things advertised about THais are non issues and they live the same way western countries do, but with a bit more corruption and a simpler grammatical language.

[@Josh-rn1em]

Sitting in MooGaTa restaurant with my hired girlfriend. People giving us dirty looks. 4year old kids walk in lugging heavy bags of crap they're being forced to sell. That's fine. My gf isn't. Who cares about their "face" when they do this??🤔