Bart Ehrman Lecture 1: Pagan Converts and the Power of God

[@camilleespinas2898]

Dr. Erhman’s lectures always keep me mesmerized

[@eloiseramsey9276]

Talks like this makes me examine my faith. I ask myself why do I believe? And if there was no heaven or hell would I still believe.

[@andrewreynolds9559]

Thankyou Bart. Ive followed you for 10 years inc the Great Courses lectures. As a 70 yr old raised in the church if only I had you as a mentor 50 years ago. Thankyou Bart for allowing me to finally understand Christian "faith".

[@obiecanobie919]

Lets agree all religions are wrong ,what should we say of life emergence and our origins ? everything is self created and self improved without any need of a logic mechanism driving its destiny ? should we replace a lie with same or worse ? Good or bad religion attempts to fix what we fear most and provide reasoning we don't have .

[@LM-jz9vh]

@@obiecanobie919 "Science provides questions that may never be answered. Religion provides answers that may never be questioned." I'm paraphrasing.

[@russellmiles7247]

Yes, and he has spurred on an entire generation on younger scholars who are reinventing the field. Bart Erhman has probably done more for faith communities and secular society than any single academic in recent generations about religious matters. My late father was fascinated early church history and I have his books. They are so basic compare to many modern works.

[@bme7491]

I too wish I had been exposed to Dr. Ehrman sooner. But better late than never.

[@obiecanobie919]

@@LM-jz9vh Indeed some scientists will imply that life has no purpose or reasoning because none can be found ,other scientists will claim the opposite ,it is all science after all .Some claim rule over life only for life to rule over them ,it is not enough to prove that one is a liar when no one knows the truth ,maybe the liar has been is right all along .

[@Philusteen]

Dr. Ehrman illuminates and clarifies so many of the logical fallacies and convenient misinterpretations that finally helped liberate me from the beliefs I was shackled to from birth. Paradoxically if there is some higher sentient intellect, I'd thank it for this guy.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

Love the bit about tombstone inscription at 19:10. Brilliant. Reminds me a bit of Yeats' "Cast a cold eye on death; horseman, pass by".

[@SelfReflective]

"As you are, I once was. As I am, you will be".

[@tongboy187]

These comments deserve more love

[@missoula1886]

yes, brilliant

[@tamborafina]

I am a Christian, but I could easily understand Ehrman's point of view.

[@tomato12terra]

so why don’t you do it?

[@zealandianorth7383]

It’s a miracle

[@timothyjohn8877]

Always a treat. No BS, just a real appraisal of history. Another stone in the bridge to a humanist future.

[@drgeorgek]

Well said 🥰

[@MrArdytube]

An excellent Q&A. At the end. For example, in reference to miracles, Dr Ehrman points out that ancient people did not have a concept of science or natural law. Pretty much everything happened because of one of the many gods. And therefore a “miracle” was not a violation of natural law as we see it.

[@fitzfitzgerald1249]

Yeah make sure you say doctor he's full of s*** in full of himself not about God loves to be the center of attention is going to remind you of his title

[@andreasplosky8516]

@@fitzfitzgerald1249 You must be a theist, perhaps even a christian. The quality of your arguments betray you.

[@fitzfitzgerald1249]

@@andreasplosky8516 you presume from your ignorance. Be Still!

[@fitzfitzgerald1249]

@@andreasplosky8516 There's always or may be threads of familiarity or similarities but that doesn't mean or summarily equate to it being the same. Similar perhaps but different. Just as your being a homosapien but doesn't mean the Asian is the African or the African the Caucasian or the Caucasian the islander or islander the indigenous American indian. Be therefore cautious in drawing conclusive deduction as a result of religious mythological diaspora similarities to dismiss Christilogy. "Be Still " by Gooden and Cohen I've come a long way still have a longer way to go it's been a Lonely Road but I know I'm not alone sometimes the going has gotten tough and I was down could not get it up but when my Sin I had enough Jesus took me by the hand Be still and know that I am God With me there's nothing that's too hard I'll get you through I've left it all behind To find the one above I had to die inside To Forgive and learn to love I've found that letting go Turns faith into a rope and so now I'm holding on to the only one who gives me hope. Be still and know that I am God With me there's nothing that's too hard I'll get you through it! The Music Video kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3XIpKh8mJJ1m5o

[@andrewmeneely9774]

Interesting he doesn't mention THAT THE JEWS SAID HE WAS DOING MIRACLES BY THE POWER OF THE DEVIL. HE WAS HEALING PEOPLE IN PUBLIC AND THE JEWS SAID HE HAD A DEMON HELPING HIM.. EVEN THE JEWISH TALMUD SAYS THIS.

[@alangriffin8146]

This is fantastic! I’ve been watching a lot of John Gamer’s lectures at Centre Place, and I’m glad KZbin recommended this

[@ladyliberty417]

Great lecture as always

[@Nazar33]

Even if the bible is just a metaphor, it's brilliant and the esoteric meanings are powerful and real.

[@chuckhunter77]

Like the part about where God's best idea is to murder all the animals and humans on earth except for a handful of them on an ark? Is that the profound esoteric knowledge you're talking about?

[@Nazar33]

@chuckhunter8522 no not litteral. In the new testament, Jesus mentioned "As in the days on Noah" when referring to how humans live a material hedonistic wasteful lifestyle and parish as a result.

[@Nazar33]

@@chuckhunter77 The story is a metophor. Matthew 24:37 refers to a time when the world will be just as wicked in latter days as it was in days of Noah.

[@slimm7145]

Here's an example of it's brilliance that you 'll never hear in church Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

[@Justin_Beaver564]

It really is brilliant. Just from a branding and marketing perspective alone.

[@judyhickman5831]

I think I would lose my mind if I thought this current life on earth is all there is. But I believe I can only verify whether there is more by a pursuit of truth not by getting lost and deceived by religion.

[@laurakosch]

Excellent observation

[@joejohnson6327]

Nobody who's still alive can verify with certainty that there's an afterlife.

[@judyhickman5831]

@@joejohnson6327 You are probably right. But I believe somehow, someway we can obtain some semblance of verification. Again though, because of our super-imposed limits, it'd only amount to "belief", which is not true verification. The only way is to acquire objective reasoning beyond our reasoning limits we live under.

[@BalrogsHaveWings]

I love you Bart ♥️

[@josiepens4480]

In the case of miracles it's the power of the narrative that matters, not whether or not it really happened.

[@simonameier7779]

Illuminating ! ! !

[@dinobrya2]

Very good lecture.

[@danielgregg2530]

He missed a biggee: Some people are religious today for no better reason than that they were taught to be when they were very little and very impressionable and they are now afraid not to be. Of course, he DID catch worst-case scenario, they have thought about it just enough to be afraid their might be a Hell and they are afraid if they don't, that's where they will wind up. One other one worth mentioning is that it gives you something to hang on to when you need help you can't figure out how to get any other way, i.e., the farmer propitiates God because he needs rain, the airline pilot a hole in the clouds through which to land the plane, etc. This is the same for us as for the ancient pagans. I also have to doubt that ancient pagan religion involved not community. It was probably a pretty important social factor in societies at least at the local level for locally significant deities.

[@pierrelabounty9917]

Of course it was socially and publicly embraced de facto.

[@BruceWSims]

"If your happiness depends on the opinions of others, You have the problem not them." (Richard Bach; "Illusions")

[@Psris123]

My idea of hell is consciousness after death of time and spending it in solitary confinement.

[@jps0117]

When did this happen? I wish all such youtube videos indicated the date of recording, not just the automatically generated upload date.

[@hutchisons]

April 6, 2019

[@nemanjamarsenic1626]

First frame of the video...

[@eloiseramsey9276]

Ancient people looked toward gods to sustain their lives. We still look toward out understanding of god to sustain and better our lives. Ancient people had many different gods, we have many different religions, however today people argue about whose religion is the true religion. Human nature hasn't changed, just how we do it. Due to the 2016 political election, most of us learned most christians are more interested in sustaining and bettering their lives than going to heaven.

[@jukker95]

I don't find the thesis that people hearing about miracles could account for such tremendous growth very convincing. They were not the only group claiming miracles, they were not the only people claiming to worship someone had been resurrected but those other sects never caught on. I think it was the radical notion of equality at the heart of christianity that accounts for the rapid growth of the religion. Living in a world where hierarchies appeared to be fixed, natural and unchanging, a religion that said slave, or woman you are just as valuable to the god who created everything as the most powerful emperor must have been literally mind blowing. I think it is highly significant that the early growth of christianity was mainly among women and slaves, groups for whom this notion of equality would have been extremely enticing.

[@emperortransman]

The only thing I don't like about listening to him is that he tells the same stories and uses the same examples in every lecture. The story about David Koresh, the one about his aunt and the Mayflower, the test he gives his students, etc. Edit: I know it's only natural he's going to repeat some stories in multiple lectures. I'm not trying to be hard on the man. It's just how I feel about it. It's not a judgement of his character or anything serious like that. Y'all need to calm down.

[@avanishbajpai3645]

About giving test to his class

[@tongboy187]

It irritates me too, but it also makes me think he’s an honest man

[@MohamedShou]

That’s why you should read his books or read and listen to his blogs 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@eddieclark9802]

I think it's because he doesn't want to buy any dinners that the Armadillo Grill. I know what you mean. 😁

[@avanishbajpai3645]

@@eddieclark9802 😂😂😂😂

[@davidgagnon3781]

I saw David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear. Am I going to worship David Copperfield? Of course not.

[@TheWpelt]

Thank you giving a compelling reason. Reason to you, probably. And what is self-evident to David should satisfy all reasonable people.

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

Good Grief! For a moment I thought the host was Matt Dullardhunty! {:o:O:}

[@markstuber4731]

Link to the second lecture? Why not in the didcription?

[@andreasplosky8516]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/naO8Z5JolK6Bi68

[@hutchisons]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/naO8Z5JolK6Bi68

[@davidsabillon5182]

I wish he would debate Dr Richard Carrier.

[@jupitermoongauge4055]

Bart knows he would be destroyed

[@bman6502]

I find it funny that Jesus had to learn to be a carpenter to make a living…. I guess in those days, miracles didn’t pay like they do today….

[@RomanPaganChurch]

You missed the point.

[@pierrelabounty9917]

Cynicism about Christ is not of faith in Him. Either He was who ,He said He was or not. Either He is the Truth or He is a liar. Christianity studied simply as a subject may lead to faith, but it is not.required to believe that such things merely existed in some form. And objectivism has the presupposition that faith must be suspended. Keep that in mind. They are not necessarily devotional. That is a road not taken or suspended on studies for simple knowledge.

[@justmedee1959]

What proof exists exactly that Yeshua had to learn it?

[@bman6502]

@@justmedee1959 so he was just born with carpentry skills??? The more interesting question is why he had to be a Carpenter anyway???

[@bman6502]

@@pierrelabounty9917 the fundamental point, you’re making is that one must have faith to believe in God, and faith is only necessary where there is not adequate proof of God’s existence…

[@monikagrosch9632]

Same with ‘ miracles ‘ at Lourdes

[@alexanderchepak2009]

Egypt was a part of Roman empire and egyptians did care about afterlife very much.

[@dannywhite1165]

The question is asked by Dr Ehrman what made Christianity so popular in the third century.? It is my opinion that the church in Rome made some adaptations to the Christian faith familiar to the every day polytheist. Praying to statues of Saints was much like praying to different gods because. The Liturgy was in Latin, a language that you’re every day polytheistic pagan was not fluent. Text of the Bibles were also written in Latin, which a smaller portion or percentage of the general population could read and understand the holy scriptures. But church leader ship evolved into a hierarchy like the Hebrew religion with scribes and Pharisees, also, the Catholic Church had its “scribes and Pharisees“. The practices of the Roman Catholic Church were welcoming to pagan believers who still held onto their sin. Habits could easily forgiveness through the recitation of Hail Mary and our fathers. Many early Christians did not believe that they were responsible to study in a meaningful depth their religion. All they had to do if they had questions was go ask a priest. The strategy, of course, is most effective when there are no longer apostles, performing miracles.

[@dannywhite1165]

The strategy, of course, is most effective when there are no longer apostles, performing miracles.

[@Psris123]

No hell. What about the wheat n the chaff or revelation book separation of the good n the bad??

[@watermelonlalala]

What about all those stories about the pagan gods getting angry with somebody and giving him or her horrible punishments? What about blood sacrifices? Weren't those to influence the gods?

[@dervalgraham3392]

How does it benefit anyone to believe something to be true when they know otherwise?

[@Baczkowa78]

Wait, so Peter a common man performed miracles. Then how did the miracles not make him divine and the Son of God?

[@BalrogsHaveWings]

Miracles are Miracles because they're miraculous

[@BalrogsHaveWings]

(Hmm Maybe should've sent a poet).

[@drdaverob8mm]

Are you the guy that told the guy that I'm the guy who gave the guy a black eye?

[@ajeet490]

the Romans had the Elysian Fields, The Vikings had Valhalla, the Hindus had reincarnation ,etc. etc..Life after death for the worthy.

[@betzib8021]

Where are the other apocryphal books?

[@betzib8021]

@@lepidoptera9337 oh...thank you

[@joelrivardguitar]

I'm confused. Bart says Christianity was unique because of ideas about the afterlife but other scholars say it's an idea taken from Hellenism and other sources? "During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC - 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 - 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven Edward Wright, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism at the University of Arizona Sanders, E. P. (1993), The Historical Figure of Jesus, Mary Boyce also confirms that the Persians believed in these ideas as well. Justin Martyr also claimed that the passions of Jesus were similar to other older demigods? (Dialogue 69)

[@LordJagd]

Right, Christianity is not unique when compared to the Hellenistic and Persian ideas of the afterlife. If anything, this does well to show that the central Christian idea of the afterlife did not come from Judaism. I’m skeptical of his emphasis on the early Christians espousing a bodily resurrection based on Judaic ideas, it doesn’t seem to fit with our sources.

[@joelrivardguitar]

@@LordJagd Exactly. The Persians definitely had the idea about a general resurrection at the end times, basically it's the first version of Revelation and is in Boyce's book. They occupied the Hebrew nation from 500-300 B.C.? It's the same basic story, God vs the devil, lots of lava, followers get resurrected and live in paradise on Earth. Boyce also said they influenced other religions like the Abrahamic religions? The more historicity I look into the more I see syncretism going on, just like every other religion.

[@LordJagd]

@@joelrivardguitar I agree, Christianity appears to be a result of ancient syncreticism. Boyce's books are terrific. Her "Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism" is so precisely written, really amazing stuff. Another peculiar Zoroastrian connection is how the Ahriman temptation story parallels the Devil temptation story in the Gospels. I wonder if Zoroastrian ideas were much more prominent in 1st century Judea than we think.

[@chuckhines459]

There is not one religion that has 100% truth in it. There is not one that is right or wrong. It's all up to the individual to what they believe in. If it makes you happy than go for it.

[@gangarajgowda3701]

Try reading Bhagavadgeeta.

[@impeachsocialism]

right or wrong is different then Truth or falseness. People can do good or bad following truth or fiction

[@crbielert]

So, orthopraxy not orthodoxy? Seems like the easier way to say it.

[@manuelcampagna7781]

Excuse me, in Greek Mythology there is the nether world, where all the dead went after death. They had to cross 7 rivers, one of which required a boat manned by Charon, who demanded $ for his service. Cerberus, a monstrous three-headed dog, would eat them up if they didn't give it a honey cake. Then they appeared before the judges Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Aeacus . Criminals, including cowards, etc., were thrown into Tartarus where special eternal punishments awaited them. The others were allowed to step into the Elysian Fields, where they would be conversing eternally. It was even believed that the dead could be contacted by necromancy, as Odysseus does with the help of the witch Circe, and the dead tell Odysseus his future, Agamemnon is dead and tells Odysseus how he was murdered by his wife and her lover. The Mysteries of Orpheus tell us of how Orpheus went down into Hades to reclaim his wife Eurydices. In Book 6 of the Aeneid Aeneas descends into Hades and is able to speak with some dead people. It is not true that ancient Greeks and Romans didn't believe in an afterlife. In 1 Samuel 28:3-25 Saul visits the witch of Endor to have her summon the spirit of Samuel to get the dead high priest to unveil the future for him. I don't claim thatis those are factual events. I only say that the Ancients believed this, otherwise the writers wouldn't have made those claims.

[@watermelonlalala]

I only got as far as the part where he says the pagan gods didn't care about behavior - and I realized he has sort of rigged the samples if he is not going to include the many pagan religions that had afterlife, judgment, reincarnation based on karma, etc.

[@danielpaulson8838]

You started off mentioning, ‘Greek Mythology,” then said at the end, they wouldn’t have written it if not true. What is Mythology?

[@manuelcampagna7781]

@@danielpaulson8838 you are plainly misquoting me. What I wrote is: "I don't claim that those are factual events. I only say that the Ancients believed this, otherwise the writers wouldn't have made those claims." The Ancients would not have claimed such events if THEY had not BELIEVED them. What are you sniffing?

[@danielpaulson8838]

@@manuelcampagna7781 Yes, I know what you said and I did not misquote you. "Geek Mythology" was what I quoted from you. I suggest those stories exist for different reasons and that they are carefully concocted carrier's for an inner spiritual healing from hurt, aka rebirth. They exist in different carrier shells and have a lot of similar analogs. But a lot of different ones too. The writers of those stories were their highest level gamers of their day using their best technology. They are carefully layer and are carefully constructed. I can demonstrate this. They were no accidents. It is pervasive from antiquity. We lost the code. But you have to use it inside your psyche. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell? Ancients saw something deeper and passed it along in myth, religion and spiritual teachings. I did not insinuate that you thought they were real. That's what you took away. Apologies for any confusion though. I didn't make that comment more clear but I didn't try to hurt your feelings. Maybe you need to decode that material. You're wound a bit tight.

[@speedingatheist]

@@danielpaulson8838 You use English words. You are using them wrong aka you're babbling.

[@betzib8021]

So how did they use miracles to convince people if they didn't DO the miracles?

[@betzib8021]

@@lepidoptera9337 well..since she has questionable supremecist values...I dont...but if I did I would buy those for their value as entertaining literature...not as a guide for how to live my life or to tell me what to believe

[@betzib8021]

@Mike JJJ well...that is really confusing.

[@kenbartlett4851]

It stuns me that people will read about miracles such as taking dogs, resurrecting tuna fish, etc and think any of this is real. Do they ever stop and think “hmmm, what is the whole thing is fabricated. Maybe it’s just all copied from other ancient religions and Jesus didn’t even exist.” If they just have space in their brain for “OMG, this is all bullshit” they would be set free.

[@gigglygiggly309]

Well, snakes used to have a legs like the old testament said. Look it up on life sciences. Besides, the Bible doesn't mention dogs talking either. But your comments are a great example of getting the facts right when humans read it.

[@chrisd6287]

Jesus was the equivalent of a KZbinr for his time. He would have definitely done ad reads for Raid Shadow Legends 😂

[@garystanfield2274]

STUDY CONSTANTINE AND YOU WILL FIND OUT BART, BUT YOU WON'T IT WILL MESS WHAT YOU TEACH UP.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@Dr. Ehrman... I suggest you read CAREFULLY this book... Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years --by Philip Jenkins

[@russellmiles7247]

Jerusalem wasn't quite a backward part of the Empire. It was the junction of the landward Royal Road (that would become the eastern link of Silk Road) and transhipment to Mediterranean and thence to the Empire. It was a wealthy area and why the Romans wanted it (to tax) I have pondered that it was not an incidental place for what was to be global religion to emerge. It was multi-cultural so various folk to be expose and perhaps more incline to consider (than if there had been one dominate state religion) The trade routes would take it to the corners of the compass. The faith communities has access to money (to pay for evangelical activities including writing and distributing texts ) Less so for any messiah is say, Teotihuacan or Kyoto

[@stephenmatthews161]

Well put and accurate.

[@LordJagd]

Great point. Have you read about all the Greek cities in Roman Judea? There were tons, with amphitheaters and high columns. It was no Rome, but it certainly wasn’t a backwater.

[@mohammedmaraee]

If the population of Israel in 2021 is 9.5 million. Stating that the Jewish population formed 5 to 7 percent of the Roman empire during the common era which is believed to be around 70 million. Makes the Jewish population then around 4.9 million. The math is not helping this statement, especially when it's believed that the Jewish people didn't live far from Jerusalem region. I'd like to learn how was the statistics done. Thanks.

[@peterader3073]

The Jewish people were a humongous diaspora, there were more Jews in Egypt then in Palestine by the time of Caesar.

[@mohammedmaraee]

@@peterader3073 Even with that, the number seems a bit improvised. I am still interested in learning about the sources that supports the statement.

[@user-dz9yx3et9y]

how come no mention of zoroaster and mithra? the core ideas of christianity are vedic/iranian in origin

[@anarchorepublican5954]

...check out Prof. Ehrman's "animated" interview with KZbinr "Holy Koolaid'...Ehrman goes into the pagan syncretistic theory in detail...particularly regarding Mithras...🏛🧙🏻‍♂️🔪🐮🔥....

[@Okaydokie001]

Christianity didn’t start with the belief in christ’s resurrection,Christ teachings weren’t that obviously.

[@yamibakura8096]

like

[@AliAhmed-pu8pk]

I think Dr. BART known ancient Egyptian cult of Osiris beleived after life.

[@shareefcondon]

Good to define the terms. The early followers of Jesus were jews. The so-called Christians came later when the trinity concept was invented, then enforced in blood. Later manifestation being the Inquisition

[@Wretched2JZ]

@18:10 😖😆😮‍💨ahhhh man where is the Trump emoji when you need it .. “WRONG”.. And I’m not a huge meme guy. But it seemed so fitting due to the story of Moses and the Torah. And even going back to Adam and Eve and the Torah that was given in the garden of Eden. It also shows man has been breaking Gods laws / instructions since the beginning 😂🙈.

[@schmetterling4477]

Why are you telling us that you don't know what Genesis 3 means? Are you that desperate to make a fool of yourself on the internet? ;-)

[@alexdroner4068]

1:15:15 may be due to Tides, falling of the sea level allowed him to walk easily.

[@davidb6016]

If the followers of Jesus were illiterate, including the apostle Paul, why is he credited with writing so much of the New Testament?

[@Shannon_Lynch]

Paul was not illiterate but also did not follow Jesus during Jesus' life, he converted years after he cruxificion

[@davidb6016]

@@Shannon_Lynch Thanks, I mistakenly took him as a disciple.

[@shaduck06]

@@davidb6016 self-appointed Apostle, why else did he have to work harder? a wannabe!

[@grimmner]

As Shannon wrote Paul was not illiterate,. Vart does talks about this in many lectures, the bible itself tells that Peter was illiterate as a response to books claiming to be from Peter. As for Paul of the letters and such in the bible i believe it was 7 that schoolors actually avresor to Paul and the rest are forged in Pauls name. If you wanna learn more on that topic insugets Looking at Dr Ehrmans lectures of his Book Forged.

[@achingzeemeek2768]

Somebody seemed to have missed sunday school classes a lot. 😁😁😁

[@yamibakura8096]

uh um um uh um uh yes

[@jonnyw82]

Did Christians get their idea of heaven, hell, Satan from Zoroastrianism?

[@user-dz9yx3et9y]

yes and many other ideas like the final judgement, the commandments, the idea of the messiah etc....look up bill donahu zoroaster

[@jonnyw82]

@@user-dz9yx3et9y I’ll check him out, thanks

[@gigglygiggly309]

Zoe started during Cyrus rein. Before that his predecessors enslaved the Jewish nation of Israel. So no, Zoey didn't come before the Jewish God.

[@user-dz9yx3et9y]

@@gigglygiggly309 Iranian predecessors of Cyrus enslaved Israel???? and yes those ideas were directly injected in with the canon of ezra, evidense of these ideas are in the gathas, Jewdaism wasnt even a thing prior to the exile, it was ancient polytheistic israelite religion, the idea of Yaway as a main god is a iranian influence, you are confused.

[@gigglygiggly309]

@@user-dz9yx3et9y thanks for insulting me. Only those with clear thinking and understanding such as yourself will eventually evolve to a superior human race. Cyrus ruled ancient Persia and are a mix of middle eastern peoples. Not today's Iranians. Feel free to provide your quote from Ezra that says otherwise

[@tommac5411]

Hocus pocus.

[@perrypelican9476]

It's not the power of god. It's the power of belief. God is but a concept that has never been proven to be real, just like all concepts of omnipotent beings. The point is that it doesn't matter because the benefit is believing in things to be real or true. You can talk all day, year, your lifetime and never have a complete idea of what god is, what god does. We observe life and come up with how god is involved. It's a man made thing that has been rejected by smart people and accepted by smart people. The stupid ones don't matter when it comes to deciding on whether or not god is real. "There would no art if not for Christianity" That has to be the stupidest thing I ever heard. I stop there. I don't listen to bull artists.

[@ChiliMcFly1]

Rome gets the whole world to 'PAY' tribute to the city on seven hills. This is not GOD's plan for the world.

[@peterkerruish8136]

Talking snakes, talking dogs - might have rung true back in the day when people would bury a new born baby under their door step as a "offering" to their god but it all sounds like Bullshit.t to me.

[@markstuber4731]

Probably because you grew up in a post Enlightenment world. Which makes the fact that, you don't believe in those superstitions predictable and boring . Do you want a medal or a chest to put it on?

[@Myperfectshell]

I’m sorry but what on earth is Bart talking about? By his own definition, “pagan” is not just one thing (the broad definition is non-Abrahamic religion), and many, many pagan systems from east to west involved both a belief in an afterlife as well as a connection between goodly deeds and thriving after death. Why is he characterizing all pagan systems as lacking both? I understand he’s referring mainly to the Romans but even that is really misleading because within Roman paganism (which was also not one thing) some did have a concept of an afterlife and judgment after death. This came from the Greeks and other older traditions. It’s not controversial, this is well documented. Besides, some of the most enduring ideas in religion today, ie judgment after death, reward for good deeds, heaven and hell, etc come from Zoroastrianism. How he’s saying here is actually ludicrous, at the very least it’s incomplete.

[@schmetterling4477]

Paganism is a term that originated in the cultural context of Judaism and early Christianity. It doesn't care as much about the details of ones belief as it does about tribal affiliation. You are, of course, correct. Much of Judaism was stolen from other "pagan" religions of the region, including Egyptian and Mesopotamian beliefs. ;-)

[@robertsias7107]

Believe it or not . Your for him or against him. You make that choice. No big deal

[@kraken4348]

Not if you're speaking about an all powerful and all knowing God. Free will cannot exist in the presence of total power and perfect knowledge.

[@chewyjello1]

I have a dragon in my bathtub. Believe it or not. You make that CHOICE. Right?

[@stefanheinzmann7319]

Those are not the only options. One simply couldn't care either way.

[@anarchorepublican5954]

...irrelevant historical ERRORS... but errors so obvious and flippant, they prove a point. once again, my Apologies Prof. Bart...but, you said it yourself, History is a rigorous discipline... 1:10:19....in Islam Mohammad (PBUH) is specifically not a miracle worker, Mohammed himself repeatedly declares such...the only miracle claimed for The Prophet is revelation of the Quran itself... On the other hand in Islam, Isa/Jesus is hailed as the greatest of Abrahamic monotheism's supernatural miracle workers-from His birth to His purported escape from death and ascension... AND 1:10:26 Joseph Smith Mormonite prophet, did publicly claim the miracle of Golden plates... but never anything about "12"(?) of them...he did appoint 12 Apostles Note:... also both these mistakes are Freshman history level ....Rookie underclassmen "Trivial Pursuit" mistakes...keep in mind this man is the respected Chair in a secular University Religion Dept....now ask yourself what else is in error? ...Oh the intellectual elation, freedom, and exasperating joy at the first realization that even the best of academic experts, such as Dr. Ehrman here are can be wrong, about quite a lot, and at a fairly quick pace, when on a roll... Let alone someone fa less credulous, such as a Dan Brown or a Robert Price, or a Richard Carrier...these more radical, self proclaimed experts, tend to b very wrong on a very regular basis... All of that is to say, its very fine, to listen to so-called "scholars" ideas, theories, interpretations, or nutty notions...just don't "buy in" till you've researched the facts, and be open to facts you don't yet know...but once or twice you prove them in error...you'll become more confident in you own ability to sniff out the Truth..Then one becomes skeptical of the skeptics themselves....

[@anarchorepublican5954]

@Saswat Kumar I have edited my post see if that is more clear and accurate... However my main point is Prof. Erhman is in Error about miracles being claimed by muslims from Mohammad's hand...

[@jamesklein1278]

My main question is why is this man giving credibility in the Christian world? He is a non-believer that loves to mislead and twist scripture. 1. He is constantly gaping and refusing to link the Holy spirits relativity in scripture. 2. He is not a man of faith in Jesus textual fact.

[@cosmicjams9585]

All roads connect in Fatima. God is real.

[@cosmicjams9585]

@@lepidoptera9337 study it. That ain't no secret nazi tech.

[@cosmicjams9585]

@@lepidoptera9337 you missed it. Study it. A year ago I might have accepted your ideas. When I studied it everything changed. Amazing

[@cosmicjams9585]

@@lepidoptera9337 try to learn what you're talking about. I have been trained , tested and paid by state, federal and corporate entities for objective analysis. Look into this phenomen Fatima was 1917. 500 years earlier in Mexico. 1961 Garabandal Spain. The biggest secret. God is real.

[@cosmicjams9585]

@@lepidoptera9337 amen

[@ElsadelValleGaster]

Jews in antiquity worshipped their own ethnic God Yahweh, and since early Christians were Jews, they worshipped Yahweh above their neighbors’ ethnic Gods. They were all pagans in one sense or another.

[@hzoonka4203]

Christianity the original Pyramid scam!

[@opescreations8474]

@@katiedotson704 which other religion is true?

[@Julian0101]

@@katiedotson704 I think that was matt dillahunty, unless he was quoting someone else.

[@davidsabillon5182]

Your wrong. Their not the original...... But they did perfect it.

[@JonathanKofi]

Oh really? I thought it was the literal pyramids that were built to ensure a successful transition to the afterlife

[@sofiahenderson8888]

@@opescreations8474 Judaism

[@andrewmeneely9774]

Pretty selective about the information too the point of dishonesty !

[@stueyapstuey4235]

5 mins in, and - really -slow down: Christianity was (and in some places remains) the dominant ideology of various interested parties (heavily enforced). You can't blame Chaucer on Christianity - there may have been a vaguely 'Viking-ish Chaucer' in a later pagan England... but this is pretty bad context framing. Don't pretend authoritarianism is a recent phenomenon, when we're (spoiler alert) discussing feudalism!

[@RonJohn63]

26:24 Christians morphed this into "venerating" the thousand patron Saints.

[@LM-jz9vh]

Check out *"The Origins of Yahweh"* by Atheologica. The fictional Abrahamic god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

[@suelingsusu1339]

How do you show that your god is more powerful?? You use a better killing instrument than the believers of the other gods ... and kill enough of them until they are convinced that your god is more powerful.... and that is what the Roman Empire did.

[@eudyptes5046]

Sure, but that was the second phase, after Rome converted to Christianity.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@eudyptes5046 ... Rome did not convert ... one Emperor did and he ordered the Army to make sure that the rest did by hook or by crook.... I suggest you read CAREFULLY this book... Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years --by Philip Jenkins

[@lawsonj39]

In all fairness, once Constantine converted, the church could offer carrots as well as sticks: believers could have the inside track on good jobs, lucrative contracts, social connections with the nobles, etc.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@lawsonj39 ... indeed... but please look up on the internet the etymology of the expression Carrots and Sticks.... for the TECHNIQUE to work the AUTHORITY applying it has to have the POWER in the first place over the SUBJECT it is applying on.

[@johndoeiii9767]

Bart shouldnt speak on Islam or Muhammad. He should stick to his what he has studied, thoroughly.

[@CharlesDorman-uc5sf]

Christianity comes from the devil through his deceiple Saul of tarsus Repent accept jahovah and do good works

[@inwyrdn3691]

Wow. I respected Mr. Ehrman until this speech. He clearly knows NOTHING about polytheism, or this topic. 1. Greeks/Romans ABSOLUTELY had religious doctrines that taught moral rules. The most obvious is the works of Hesiod (Theogony/Works & Days/Shield of Herakles), but ancient epics were moral instruction and discussed how to be a brave man/good wife/respectable child/etc. 2. No conception of the afterlife? Is he joking? Hades/Pluto ruled the Underworld - you remember, that place where dead people go. If you were heroic or especially virtuous, you'd go to Elysium/Elysian Fields - that's LITERALLY where Christians got the idea of Heaven! 3. Faith for salvation? Really? I guess this "New Testament scholar" (what a joke) never read the parable of the sheep and the goats or, golly, I don't know, the entire book of James? Jesus didn't tell the Rich Young Ruler to believe harder, he said to give all his money away. Sounds like action, not belief, to me. This was embarrassing. Thank the gods I'm a polytheist.

[@LordJagd]

Excellent points. Bart’s expertise is in textual studies of the New Testament, meaning manuscripts. I don’t think he should use his popularity as a platform for speaking on things he knows little about. What kind of polytheist are you?

[@inwyrdn3691]

@@LordJagd A Panheretic, one who honors all pantheon and draws from their traditions and texts. A phrase I like is "We're friends with all the gods, from Amaterasu to Zeus". Aside from that, explaining it would be way more than could be explained in a KZbin comment section 😁.

[@davidkeller6156]

Perhaps should read the book. He covers all the points you made.

[@inwyrdn3691]

@@davidkeller6156 Perhaps he did, but in the lecture, the information he gave is completely wrong. One cannot give bad information and then go "Well, read my book, because it's all good in there!" If he got it right in his book, he could get it right in his lecture.

[@gangarajgowda3701]

Welcome to the club of polytheism ❤️. But our polytheism is different, we have gods, who have manifested from the supreme being. We belong to sanatan dharma (lit eternal dharma).

[@dinobrya2]

There was an afterlife in Egypt and China.

[@eudyptes5046]

I think his main point was that an afterlife wasn't important for "pagan" people to believe in their gods.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@eudyptes5046 .... have you ever heard of how important Valhalla was to the Nordic Religions or Nirvana is to Hindus or or or.... he is wrong.

[@gamerknown]

@@suelingsusu1339 Not really comparable, there are some contemporary Jewish people who have a vague notion of heaven and plenty of Catholics who believe in family reunification when neither doctrine is within the mainstream of either faith. It's difficult to determine the motivations for regular vikings.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@gamerknown ... I suggest you educate yourself about Nordic Religions.... what you do not know is not unknown by all... imagine that!!!

[@gamerknown]

​@@suelingsusu1339 What proportion of Vikings left behind written records? Of the proportion which could write, how many had a vested interest in propounding religious orthodoxy? Think for a second before you attribute comments to ignorance.

[@Petal4822]

Christians have God’s Grace which gives out a warm essence. -Non- believers are wooden and hollow. -If you believe in Christ, you have God’s sanctifying Grace, which makes Heaven possible. If you don’t, you go to hell. It’s that simple. -Believing is what matters not arguing about scriptures.

[@robinhood20253]

Do I know you?

[@suelingsusu1339]

Has anyone seen the amazing paintings of Sofia Montenegro De Viraci.... no... ah well that was because of Christianity's stifling misogyny throughout the history of Europe and she was extirpated as a witch... and humanity lost her would be amazing contributions to Art.

[@emperortransman]

The only Sofia Montenegro I could find is from Nicaragua and born in 1954. Who are you talking about?

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@emperortransman ....hahahahaha.... see .... you don't even know who she was or where from or even when from..... because she is all the sparks of feminine intelligence and creativity and ingenuity that were snuffed out and extinguished by Christianity's misogyny and misanthropy and regressive oppressive despotism throughout the annals of its perfidious blight upon humanity.

[@malektelemcen]

This man needs to learn Coran, compare what it contains with the historical facts about Jesus, if he is smart enough he will be Muslim in a record time.

[@gangarajgowda3701]

🤣🤣🤣 just bcz he finds his discovery is wrong about Jesus and that is there in quran doesn't make quran a truth of god. Qur'an is the most barbaric book, worse than bible.

[@vejeke]

He will study the Quran when he stops valuing his life.

[@susandidary9646]

How can you reject miracle when the whole world is miracle, we live in world of miracles . You say prove it scientifically, I say the first and last scientist to create the universe and the creatures is the first and last scientist, we call it GOD . Energy itself is creature .

[@peterader3073]

Yes, the fine tuning problem can reasonably explained by a designer, it can also be reasonably explained by infinite multiverses, or by sheer chance. I do lean toward a creator, though not like the Christian God. What do you mean “energy is creature”? Energy is the capacity to do work, work is making something move. Energy is equivalent to mass, if you take a given amount of energy, divide it by the square of the speed of light, you get mass, that’s what E=mc2 means.

[@susandidary9646]

@@peterader3073

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

fine tuning? for us ? go live at the bottom of the sea or go live on Mercury

[@LiamMacD]

As a Pagan, the “World is a Miracle” arguments falls flat as soon as you realize everyone has different creation myths that say their Gods did it. All equally as believable. I reject Christian Miracles because for starters they suddenly stopped, I’ve never heard of or seen one in the modern day and the stories themselves have no evidence that they ever actually occurred. I have no reason to believe your God did anything, so I go with the Philosophy that I believe makes the most sense and explain the universe the best. Which is absolutely not Christianity.

[@susandidary9646]

@@LiamMacD The meaning of the miracle isn’t that there is no law or order in the creation of the universe . Scientist discover, then invent , but they are not creators.

[@randytrout1241]

What is so new and special about these claims that necessitate another book for sale? It's all about money on both sides so choose your mentor well!

[@andreasplosky8516]

You should read the book. It is excellent. Ehrman is one of the most knowledgeable biblical historians on the planet.

[@jamesklein1278]

The skepticism of Dr. Ehrman explained and his views and heresy.

[@susandidary9646]

Most of the Jews converted to Christianity, as Paul was Jew , and after him , more Jews converted Christianity.

[@peterader3073]

That is incorrect, a very small amount of the Jews converted to Christianity. Paul was a Jew but he rejected Judaism and preached overwhelmingly to gentiles. It was Peter and the Jerusalem group, who did not like Paul, who evangelized among the Jews, and they had very little success in Palestine or the diaspora. That small percentage of Jews who did become Christian were absorbed into gentile Christianity very soon afterward, so that by the beginning of the 2nd century there was no more Jewish Christianity.

[@cwdor]

Christianity comes from the devil through his deciple Saul of Tarsus.

[@randytrout1241]

What devil? What Saul of Tarsus? Is it not an oxymoron to claim what does not exist to be something that does not exist?

[@jonnyw82]

Christians should call themselves Paulinists bc their theology is primarily based upon Paul not Jesus

[@randytrout1241]

@@jonnyw82 So you repeat from some other guy that you didn't know either!

[@cwdor]

@@randytrout1241 sooo I take it that you don't read or know anything about the bible ?

[@randytrout1241]

@@cwdor You can take what you wish to take but this is the most useless reply to a comment I have ever read. No information at all. Just an assumption about someone you do not know! I have read and learned more than ANYONE that doesn't even believe including your hero, Bart Ehrman. Every claim he has, I am able to reconcile. KZbin comments ARE NOT a way of teaching these things but all I can say is you can follow HIS mockeries or try to read and study the bible yourself because it is obvious you are a sheep of the wrong Shephard!

[@suelingsusu1339]

Wow... no art without Christianity.... wow... no other culture has art because they did not have Christianity???

[@ashok755]

I think meant in reference to Europe, not the whole world.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@ashok755 ... Greek art and Roman art an Etruscan art and Iberian art etc. etc. etc. etc. existed long before there was any Christianity that went around with an IMPERIAL FIAT destroying these arts as pagan.

[@lynwood77]

This is really not that complicated, nor as insulting, as you seem to imagine it to be. This is very basic Art History 101 stuff. He's explicitly discussing the effect of Christianity over the last 2000 years, not art in ancient Rome or Greece or anywhere else. In the Middle Ages non-religious art was largely banned in the vast majority of Europe. That wouldn't have happened without Christianity. This is really not that complicated, nor as insulting, as you seem to imagine it to be.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@lynwood77 "nor as insulting, as you seem to imagine it to be"... I did not imagine it to be insulting... I know it is abjectly wrong... the insult is to the person who asserts such utter twaddle... and the ones who believe it.

[@suelingsusu1339]

@@lynwood77 "In the Middle Ages non-religious art was largely banned in the vast majority of Europe".... and who did this banning??? So if anything Christianity was an egregious detrimental disaster to art in Europe.

[@TheIAMINU]

Oh yes , the ability to recite blatant lies with a straight face is very powerful....

[@lawsonj39]

Says the blatant liar...

[@leestinton8755]

What lie are you referring too?

[@scareddoglikelslamprayer615]

🏳️‍🌈🦏 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there. Joshua 2:1 KJV

[@ianfirth33]

Erhman, talks like my lecturers fron when I was in bible college. 1.They assumed that the bible was completely true as indicated. 2.The writers never lied and were not influenced by their own biases. 3. Early church fathers were totally credible and correct in their commentary on history , theology and had no biases. 4. No common religioun or philosophy affected the ideas in wrting the New Testament. I'm way past Erhman's basic and simplistic ideas on Christianity.

[@awasteofsalt]

One of the reasons that I like Ehrman is how detailed and nuanced a view he can provide on the early faith. These are relatively high level lectures, he has other lectures where he has more details and he publishes a blog where he shares even more.

[@danielomitted1867]

I wouldnt trust Bart with any theological discussion. He cant even get the trinity right.

[@peterader3073]

Nobody can get the Trinity right without some kind of heresy. Even in Sunday school they wound up teaching modalism in an attempt to be basically comprehensible.

[@danielomitted1867]

@@peterader3073 1 God and 3 distinct persons. Its not that hard

[@peterader3073]

@@danielomitted1867 The concept that three individual and distinct persons that are not one another but are all one person is a concept that makes no sense. The Orthodox call it a holy mystery beyond human understanding and wave it off, which is the only viable option, because trying to explain what it means or how it is that one God can be three distinct persons and still be one is something that can’t be explained logically, which is why when people try they start sounding like Sabellius or Praxeas, inevitably.

[@danielomitted1867]

@@peterader3073 i agree the concept that 3 persons are 1 person doesnt make any sense. They are 3 divine persons who share fully in the being that is God.

[@peterader3073]

@@danielomitted1867 That is also not correct, that’s called polytheism. See? It’s an impossible concept.

[@joeGuizan]

Very disgusting of him to use David Koresh example. Very arrogant of him to dismiss the ancient miracles to be a misunderstanding that never happened. His dismissive attitude of the miracles of Jesus. His explanation of Jesus walking on water is childish. He is a fantastic liar. Most modern scholars dismiss miracles says it all. I guess he would dismiss Paul"s account of his Damascus experience in Acts 9. I wonder how he would dismiss Peter's escape from death in Acts 12. This guy is endued with the spirit of the snake in the garden of Eden.

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

prove Pauls account happened, Prove Peter escaped from anything - these are STORIES

[@davidkeller6156]

Apparently you don’t understand how historians investigate things. Do you even understand the history of the New Testament. Many biblical historians are Christian and people of faith. But, they study and understand the history that isn’t taught in the average church. Miracles are something Historians can’t prove. There are stories of miracles in all sorts of religions.

[@michelebrowder8293]

I tried to listen with an open mind but this guy is all over the place and isn’t a credible speaker. To be an unbeliever of God, he lacks any confidence in the points he’s trying to make. He seems nervous, unsure, and not fully educated. I believe he lacks faith in himself more than anything else.

[@kihntagious]

You need to look further before you decide. He's a brilliant scholar and teacher and knows more about early Christianity than anyone.

[@hutchisons]

Spoken like a true believer.

[@zumurudlilit]

Stupid people are always so sure of themselves. Maybe he lacks faith in himself which is a good thing considering all those idiots with no doubts about anything , but he doesn’t lack knowledge. Let’s be honest - you don’t value facts, you value impression.

[@michelebrowder8293]

Gosh, you’re right! You know me so well! Glad you don’t make judgments 🙄

[@Mr_Stav]

The worst intro ever by Bart: what nonsense!

[@andreworford9641]

A.good.point.on.jesus.a.carpenter.to.earn.a.living.the.son.of.the.creator.of.everything.being.kept.from.hunger.by.working.for.money.to.stay.alive.which.most.people.on.earth.at.2023.have.to.do.okay.food.stamps.america.social.security.many.countries