Historical Paul: What Scholars Actually Know About Paul's Life, Beliefs, and Personality

[@vintagejoehill]

Looking forward to seeing all of this. Very sorry for your mother's passing Bart. May her memory be a blessing.

[@camilleespinas2898]

When I heard the description “ down in the muck” I sat up with surprised notice. This sounds like a strange story ,but I almost died several years ago and had a vivid out- body-experience when I was close to deaths hooked up to a respirator. organ failure. I wbecame aware I was in the real muck .. a sticky brown muck in a dark place like a deep darkly lit basement. There were other people with me trying to lift their arms or legs out of the muck, but to no avail as the muck was sticky and as one tried to pull a arm or leg free only to be pulled back down .

[@camilleespinas2898]

Sorry I messed that up trying to correct my grammar and it printed itself .. to to finish my story … i began to pray for myself and the other , I will call them shadow people. I couldn’t see faces, yet I knew they were people.. i was swept out of the mud room by a muddy river. I had to struggle to try and keep my head above water . I knew I was drowning . It turns out this was what was really happening to me in real life as my kidneys had stopped working and I my body was swollen with unprocessed fluid. As I struggled to keep my head up and keep from drowning I looked up and saw many very bright light beings that I knew were people, but I could not see their faces. I thought to myself, maybe one of them ( the bright light beings ) could help me. It was then that I recognized one of the light beings as my father only because he wore a bright white shining uniform that I recognized. I thought no way could I even expect him to jump in this brown muddy river and get that bright white suit dirty. It was then he jumped in and i woke up and opened my eyes to see nurses bending over me. It was later in my difficult recovery that my husband told me my father had died while I was i in this coma.

[@HiramLoki]

@@r0ky_M What do you mean by "mean"..?

[@hegagi839]

What scholars knew was from books they read. They couldn't possibly live during the time of Paul. Whatever scholars said were based on their analysis and conjecture which maybe biased or wrong.

[@audionmusic2787]

I am often amazed that Christians take more doctrinal direction from Paul than from James. Marketing in action. The original, apostolic faith required daily acts of goodness to evidence the belief in Christ. Paul called this heresy, advancing the spurious idea that no mere mortal can be good. Even trying is blasphemy. This turned out to be much more popular than actually having to live a good life. New converts merely had to declare a few simple words and then nothing more was required. This made the faith grow so rapidly and widely. Laziness. The gift of Paul.

[@HistoryandReviews]

Jesus said, “NO ONE is good but God alone” sooo

[@HistoryandReviews]

@@Music-saveslives there is absolutely no proof that James the brother of Jesus wrote anything. Plus the epistle labeled as James never claims to be his brother. 2 it was written in highly educated koine GREEK a language James would not have written or spoken. Although I agree “faith without works is dead” we should not force our own beliefs on who the author was

[@diansc7322]

that's not true, considering early Christianity and the Catholic Church that developed from it do not affirm at all that you are saved from faith alone but you need works

[@davidk7529]

And if you *dare* challenge my authority on the matter, you’ll be damned. What a wonderfully convenient tool for power-craving lunatics.

[@AndrewofVirginia]

I don't believe that st. Paul ever said it was blasphemy to try to act righteously. See Romans 2 where he even seems to link justification with the "doers of the law" rather than the hearers only.

[@GoZags43]

Dr. Ehrman, I can honestly say that you are the professor I’ve learned the most from in my life, and I have never even had the pleasure of being in one of your courses. I’ve learned more from your online courses than all the professors I had when I got my bachelors degree in English. I just wanted to thank you for the great work you’ve done over the years and also offer my condolences for your loss. Loss is the most unfortunate reality of the human condition. Your family will be in my thoughts as you go through this difficult time.

[@bartdehrman]

Hey GoZags - it's Chris writing for Bart. If you've taken his courses, you probably know me. I love this comment and just wanted to gift you a free course of your choosing from our store. Shoot me an email at chris (at) doubtingthomas dot com and I'll hook you up. Sorry for the weird email. I don't want it to get picked up by web scrapers.

[@ibmor7674]

@@bartdehrmanWow nice gesture, I hope that the commenter sees your generous gift.

[@adolfoobando718]

@@bartdehrman The Bible Is the most famous Book in the World and it was written thousands of years before you and Bart Erhman was born. In a legal hearing, the only valid and accepted testimony will be that of true eyewitnesses who saw, heard and spoke with the people, in the same places and time referred to in the trial. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are. Bart Erhman was never in Palestine nor did he know Jesus Christ nor the apostles nor the Jews, Greeks and Romans of that time. It is more than obvious who is telling the truth and who is lying. Bart Erhman is a totally false witness!... and he is saying that the men who wrote that thousands of years ago is not correct? He Is a Big lier. Bart Ehrman is a poor devil that sooner or later Will go to the burning Hell. Poor apostate! 😈👉🏻☠️🔥🔥🔥 John 21:24 "This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true." Book of Revelation 22:18-20 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus".

[@adolfoobando718]

@@bartdehrman Mr Bart, you should convert to Islam and teach courses in Saudi Arabia against the Bible. So you would not have to be asking students for financial aid to survive. You would swim in money and be happy freely criticizing the Bible and the Christian faith. But it is possible that they end up cutting off your head if at any time it occurs to you to criticize the divine inspiration of the Qur'an.

[@adolfoobando718]

@@bartdehrman @@bartdehrman Mr. Bart, I was a Baptist for many years, but I am still a Christian and will continue to be until after I am dead. I studied the Hebrew, Greek and Arabic languages ​​and many other things. Now I am more than Baptist. Now I have power of the Holy Spirit in my life and God has given me gifts. I am not famous like you but I help many people in different places in various ways. I don't ask for money. I have my own job. Years ago I have known of you and your studies and your abandonment of Christianity and faith in the Bible. I must say that his problem of incredulity with God is lack of experiences and real experiences of the power of the Holy Spirit in his life. You allowed Satan to deceive you through Bruce Metzger and many others. I know who he was. I have several critical editions of that new testament in Greek and have studied their commentaries and analysis for years. Unlike you, I did not become an agnostic or an atheist. I am a person who is very sensitive to the needs of poor and sick people. But I am also a very prayerful person and I am very sensitive to hearing the voice of God. You are an intellectual but you do not have nor have you ever seen a real miracle from God in your life because you stopped praying and never had a spiritual discipline. I am going to tell you about my family experience: My mother had a serious incurable physical disease in her body 44 years ago. She was going to die in just 6 months in a hospital. She vomited and lost a lot of blood. She was very sick and she went into an unconscious state and she couldn't move or speak anymore. She was Catholic. We were all Catholics and ignorant of the Bible and Jesus Christ. But at that moment a man of God appeared in the hospital and said a healing prayer for my mother. The prayer worked, though not immediately. It was a process of several weeks and months. Finally my mother fully recovered. Today, after so many years, she is still alive and in excellent health. In 1984 I was also sick and had a different but also incurable disease in my body. I went into my room alone and closed the door. I then said a simple prayer of faith and asked God for my healing in Jesus Name. I also received complete healing in my body and today I am healthy and happy. Let me tell you that you need to know the Holy Spirit as a real person. He can also heal you of his health problem. He only asks God in faith and he will receive healing in his Name. You need to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that will give you true faith and power and the true presence of God will come to you and help you. The Gospel is not reduced solely to a mere question of language and textual criticism. The Gospel is not just empty words, but the Power of God. That is what you do not have and he does not know. You need the real presence of the Spirit of God. In my "Baptist Era" I had certain criticisms of God's justice, like you. But I never rebelled against God. On the contrary, I sought him out in prayer more and more. And I began to hear his voice inside very strongly and in a real way. I had important dreams where God (Jesus Christ himself) spoke to me. You can doubt this if you want. But it was real and very logical. He told me things about my life that were going to happen in the future and they finally did. There are a few other things to happen yet. But that gave me confidence in Him and my criticism of God disappeared. I wish I could help him get over his existential crisis and his bitterness and resentment against God. But I can't do that. You must do it. you can do it. Sincerely cry out to God like a child and you will truly know God. Ask him with humility that his Holy Spirit come to you and baptize you and you will be free from that disbelief. You will see things change in his life for the better, if you only believe God and seek him from the heart. Be humble and look it up! He will embrace you like the prodigal son, he will forgive you, he will heal you, he will save you and he will throw a great party of reconciliation with and for you. What are you waiting for? εὐφρανθῆναι δὲ καὶ χαρῆναι ἔδει, ὅτι ὁ ἀδελφός σου οὗτος νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἔζησεν, καὶ ἀπολωλὼς καὶ εὑρέθη.

[@itsdave.j]

Dr James Tabor is such a good storyteller. I could possibly hear him explaining about Paul and other biblical stuffs for hours. Literally

[@investigandolabiblia]

Very true!! And his works get complicated but if one goes slow there is so much golden nuggets

[@charleskimbrell9040]

What I like about Paul is when he says you have to promise people ressurection, otherwise your religion won´t sell(First Corinthians ch 15).

[@davidbarrett590]

I am a great fan of Bart's but it was fascinating to listen to James. A different style but equally magnetic. I can see why they are friends! We owe you both so much for such scholarship.

[@nathanfoust9104]

I think they should have all three of them together for a podcast.

[@investigandolabiblia]

100 percent!!! I would definitely say that James tabor is a bit more knowledgeable Than Bart on Paul

[@investigandolabiblia]

@@nathanfoust9104that would be amazing! Worth at least the price of a movie ticket

[@nathanfoust9104]

@@investigandolabiblia Both are amazing! I could listen to both of them all day. :)

[@investigandolabiblia]

@@nathanfoust9104 100 percent!! they should sell a private event where the public can go and ask them questions

[@andrewmays3988]

DR. James Tabor will now be on my reading list. This interview has caused me to rethink what little I know about Paul and his understanding of Christ's resurrection.

[@johnprentice1527]

I'm only about halfway through this discussion between Megan and James Tabor, but I'm enjoying it immensely and learning so much. I love that Mr. Tabor is quite clear about what we can know about Paul and what we can only speculate. This is a man who has done rigorous scholarship yet has the humility to tell us what we don't know and perhaps can never know. Very refreshing.

[@rambutan3788]

By attacking Paul, Dr Tabor is also attacking Christianity.. Dr Tabor is a lackey of the Devil, Satan, on these last days. And they are many of them. Beware.

[@johnprentice1527]

@@rambutan3788 Enjoy your delusions. I know they give you comfort, but they are delusions nonetheless.

[@rambutan3788]

@@johnprentice1527 Do not rely your fate on this so called modern scholars. They are like the Scribes and Pharisees in Jesus time. They took self pride as masters and scholars of the scriptures but Jesus branded them as serpents and vipers. Where did Dr Tabor base his teachings? From the works of scholars and other scholars. In contrast to Paul whose teachings he claimed were from Jesus Christ..Between Dr Tabor and St Paul, who are you going to believe? Your common sense will save you from destruction.

[@robmurray33]

So sorry to hear of your loss, Dr. Ehrman. Condolences to you and your family.

[@michaelbuley3373]

Listening to this conversation, my impression is that the 1st schism in the Christian Church is between Paul and the other Apostles.

[@joecurran2811]

That's Tabor's view. I certainly think it can't be discounted.

[@salvadorceriaco6857]

What if Dr. Tabor is wrong in his exposition of Paul.If Jesus Christ truly revealed Himself to Paul.That is GOD 's supreme will,no man can question. Paul declaration that Jesus Christ is GOD & Savior of mankind proof his service to God Almighty. The mystery of the Church,all Jesus Christ believers,was not revealed in Old Testament, only in New Testament. ..,.

[@travis1240]

I think that is quite true, and I don't think most serious scholars would really refute that. Peter's church died out soon after the Jewish war, and Paul's church wrote the "history" we have today.

[@theclassysassymama7515]

That is because Paul was a Roman con artist, he was NOT an apostle. He invented Christianity and neither knew nor followed Jesus which is why the church is always quoting him and ignoring Jesus who clearly taught and lived something entirely different than Paul's religion.

[@nokhchi1079]

@@theclassysassymama7515 Paul was the biggest Con Artist in the ancient world. The thing is that the only people who believed Paul were the pagan Greeks. The Jewish followers of Jesus didnt follow paul. How could they forsake everything they learnt from Jesus and then follow Pauls teachings contradicting everything Jesus taught them. Any person could come along and say that they were seeing visions of Jesus and receiving revelation. And there were actually many more imposters like paul, but paul was successful in his deceit deceptive and manipulative agenda and targeted the gentiles who were ignorant gentiles.

[@arturobandini4078]

I only discovered Professor Ehrman's work around summertime last year. Before that, I'd never had a serious interest in the history of Christianity, or in religion generally. But his words hooked me and I watch these videos, and listen to his previous lectures on Audible, every week. Fascinating and eye-opening perspectives, with deep ideas clearly explained for a layman like me. Thanks so much for what you do, Bart!

[@JayWest14]

I found his content a few years back and have followed him ever since.

[@origenjerome8031]

I would like to suggest that you also watch videos of the Islamic preacher Ahmed Deedat. He was known as the Lion of Islam. One interesting thing about Ahmed Deedat, he was a Muslim and yet he talked and preached about Christianity and the New Testament more than he preached the Quran. Search his videos on KZbin.

[@johnbernays-b5y]

Paul the Apostle was a Hateful Monster!!! Who do you ignore ROMANS CHAPTER. !? Chapter 1 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[@txfreethinker]

Great video and so sorry about your mom's passing, Dr. Ehrman. My condolences to you and your family and may she rest in peace. 😔

[@Jeremy-am]

Oh, my at first I thought you said Dr. Ehrman passed away 😢 but I am sorry and my condolences go out to the Ehrman family

[@Εύροκλύδων]

I was about to skip this one because it wasn't Dr. Ehrman but I was really happy that I continued to listen. High quality content.

[@exoplanet11]

I love it when Megan chimes in with some cross-references to Messopotamia to give perspective. Very useful.

[@Loenthall88]

The more I have learned about Paul, the more I am persuaded he was a religious fanatic who was truly delusional. Claiming that his "revelations" superseded even the experience of the disciples that walked with Jesus is arrogance of the highest order. Like all cult leaders, his word is the only word.

[@DneilB007]

Paul is very cult-ish at times (the love bombing, the “don’t trust anyone else but me” claims, the self-aggrandizement, and so on) isn’t he?

[@joecurran2811]

Paul's reputation gets worse and worse...

[@jannieschluter9670]

not if it was the truth. your words are arrogant of the highest order. you are pauls gods and know more?

[@Wayne_on_Wheelz]

Because you don't know Jesus Christ or understand the bible. I pray you soften your heart, open your ears to hear.

[@billrobinson9704]

What do you think of the theory that Paul and other mystics may have been epileptic? I recall reading about a visit that Aquinas made with his students to Bonaventura only to find him in a trance. "Let us leave one saint as he communes with another," Aquinas said. This sounds like Bonaventura could have been in the midst of an epileptic seizure. The unexplained episodes that Karen Armstrong had in her youth were interpreted as religious experiences, and she was directed to enter a convent. However, the nuns didn't know what to do with her and sent her to university. Later, she was diagnosed as epileptic.

[@MetaphorUB]

I’m so glad that the two of you are friends! You’re both such inspirational scholars and teachers in your fields. I live in Chapel Hill and hope to see both of you live some day. And you and your family have my condolences.

[@MrTrickatreat]

lok'tar ogar

[@MetaphorUB]

@@MrTrickatreat #ZugZug

[@rambutan3788]

Both are deceivers.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@rambutan3788 Right, they are deceivers because they discuss the meaning of the text?

[@shelkit]

The more I learn about Paul, the more I see him being a charismatic narcissistic personality. It makes more sense to me now how Christianity rolled out (and continues to) in our world.

[@HannahMitchell-Art]

This. He’s pulling the same lines of grandeur that cult leaders do 😢

[@melindad180]

From my personal experience, Paul has ruined good people, especially men. He turned them into a misogynist. And the worst part, is that these men, don't even have a clue. The blinder, is the belief that the 66 books are "god breathed".

[@curlymyhero]

I have an ebook out called "Cult of Apostle Paul" which I think is very accurate

[@alassmann]

The Messiah taught Kingdom Paul if he actually existed hijack the gospel or message, in Acts there are three different stories contradicts each other in his supposed road to Damascus conversion in the book of Acts, could have been a ploy to infiltrate the believers of the way

[@jameswithers2334]

The Joseph Smith of early Christianity?

[@gensgreenmagic6871]

If you went to court and said “I witnessed this! I wasn’t physically there, but I had a vision!” You’d be laughed out, and rightly so.

[@stephenscharf643]

Thank you Dr Ehrman! I'm newer to your lectures but have been listening to a ton the last month or so. I really appreciate the uploads and will be getting your books. Much appreciated!

[@Blake_61636]

So interesting to learn how Paul was effected by the philosophies of his time. How his views differ from other biblical resurrection/afterlife views. Enlightening lesson. Thank you.

[@zapkvr]

AFFECTED.

[@JohnStopman]

I'm very sorry to hear that your mother has passed away. Stay strong! ❤

[@renunciant]

Bart coming through strong with the 1 hour content. This is literally why I got KZbin Premium.

[@OhManTFE]

Use ad block

[@kencreten7308]

@@OhManTFE Doesn't work. With adblock, at least last time I checked, you still had to "wait for the ads (blank video window)" at least i did even with my OS level ad blocking and other tricks.

[@OhManTFE]

@@kencreten7308 Try ublock origin

[@kencreten7308]

@@OhManTFE I use that as well, but at some point, I'm OK with paying, if ads are removed. I will to pay for that. I understand that many web companies make their living via ads. Companies have to make a buck. If companies have a no ad option, I encourage that behavior by paying rather than bucking that particular part of the system.

[@OhManTFE]

@@kencreten7308 You must be an ASMR channel coz you're putting me to sleep!

[@beccahawkins1905]

I love that James asked Megan what she thinks at around the 6:50 mark. It’s just such a down-to-earth human moment. And especially a senior white male academic asking a younger female academic who is interviewing him what she thinks…it’s just so refreshing and nice to see that.

[@davidk7529]

I never see that happening in the case of reversed gender/racial roles either, so I don’t see what’s so impressive… and honestly that’s such a low bar, it’s unfortunate that it’s still something that stands out at all. Even significant status or knowledge differences should never prevent people from eagerly sharing thoughts with each other.

[@honeysucklecat]

Paul screams con man. He says what only con men say. It’s obvious.

[@dancahill9585]

I certainly hope Bart comes around to this topic again. I'd love to hear Bart's viewpoint on Paul, who I believe is the most important Christian of all time.

[@isrbillmeyer]

James Tabor's book Paul and Jesus and Robert Eisenman's books on the subject is very instructive.

[@dbarker7794]

I have a hard time equating a "visionary experience" with an "eyewitness account." This bugged me while reading Tabor's wonderful book Paul and Jesus, and I'm still not buying that idea. Anyway, thanks for the great podcast. 👍

[@karlu8553]

Fantastic conversation, love Dr. Tabor

[@hermithefrog629]

35:28 "If you're agreeing with him and he doesn't sense opposition, he's tender, like a nurse with her child." I've experienced people like that. Warm up until you say something wrong. Reminds me of Ted Bundy. Wants childlike, trusting, believing followers who accept his authority when he cries about his bruises from when he tripped on a rock on the road to damascus. A true cult leader. It makes sense why he hates the people who actually knew Yeshua, they could contradict him and his "revelations." "If an angel tells you that Paul is wrong, let that angel be damned." It truly is telling. "Even if god directly tells you that I am lying, believe me. Trust me. I am all you need." Thank you for uploading this. I had doubts about Paul due to the shifting beliefs and the changing details of his "conversion" story, but this provided the context I needed. It's not Christianity, it's more accurately Paulinism.

[@smb123211]

Bart gave me a lift when I needed more reasons to abandon faith. His ideas on the Paul of Acts vs the Paul of the letters hit home. I'd already dismissed virtually all conversations, particularly when folks are in the desert or in war or alone with others but the idea that whole speeches would have to be remembered word for word had never occurred to me. Thanks

[@kudjo24]

I dont think so, the Dead Sea Scrolls are proof that you can have an extremely long oral tradition passed down for 2,000 years and still be completely the same. The Dead Sea Scrolls were only off by six or seven words in their entire collected translations from the modern day Torah and Old Testament writings, such insane accuracy over time is thanks to a rich and obsessive oral tradition by Judiasm that repeat and sign over and over every part of scripture exactly as it was and needs to be in order for the word of God to be passed down exactly as it was. Such a thing with the Gospels and Paul is extremely possible and likely under direct Jewish converts as it was after Jesus ascended.

[@keitho8131]

Subscribed to Dr. James Tabor channel based on this. Look forward to listening!

[@lawsonj39]

Nietzsche says the same thing--essentially, that Paul invented Christianity.

[@krzysztofciuba271]

All..lunatics, one- theological, the other -philosophical!

[@flintread2303]

Thank you for more great and thought provoking content as usual Professor Ehrman, I hope your family are well.

[@nathanfoust9104]

Dr. Tabor is really good. Very good personality, and great speaker.

[@juannifer32]

I noticed that Paul's letters come after the Four Gospels when Paul's letters were before the Four Gospels and I think the reason for this was because Paul teaches that the law is no longer needed and we are now under Grace. But Jesus says the opposite but if you put Paul's letters last it seems like yes Jesus says this but then Jesus comes to Paul comes with his message that the law is no longer needed and just belief in the death and resurrection. Paul's letters coming first and the Four Gospels coming afterwards would definitely change the perspective of some things.

[@krzysztofciuba271]

? Simple: Paul was smarter than Jesus@damned uneducated fishermen(the 12). All of them did not know Bible's hermeneutics like their dumb teachers, rabbis at that time

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

Pauls teachings are the new covenant, not under laws, under righteousness of Love, not self righteousness to the Law. Jesus' teachings were righteousness according to Love, if you study Pauls epistles you can have this understanding. There's no Love in the Law, Jesus accomplished the new covenant, fulfilled the Law.

[@juannifer32]

@@mariaandreaspashi1931 So Jesus didn't share this new covenant with his disciples? Because the disciples were still under the law. Why would Jesus only tell Paul this. I thought we were under grace after Jesus died but yet no one knows this until Paul came? Paul came way after Jesus so why did Jesus wait so long to tell people they are under grace?

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

@@juannifer32 Jesus taught new covenant to all disciples, but they were still confused, and had misunderstanding of Jesus's purpose up until Jesus was crucified, I don't know what you mean about grace, but not earned means we cannot be righteous through self, anything to do with self expressions, trying to please God through self expressions isn't righteousness, we cannot earn it, but through Jesus, the new covenant righteousness of Love. The disciples and Jewish sects were conditioned to please God through Laws and practices, Paul had task to teach Jews and pagans and transition from self righteousness of Law to righteousness of Love, that's why circumcision or not made no difference. They measured sin with the Law. But all unrighteousness is sin 1 John 5: 16, 17 They could not sin to the Law for righteousness of Love, for Jesus, because their conscience was stuck to Law, self righteousness. And they lost purpose of Laws, God created the Law for our benefit, to preserve life, to save life. But they thought Laws was for Gods benefit, and worshipped the Law instead of God.

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

@@juannifer32 I don't know if you agree with that explanation, but another way to understand Paul's teachings that it's not through our own works, and we cannot earn, meaning not through self expressions, anything to do with self. Righteousness of Love isn't through self/ego. I gave food to the hungry, because I love God, want to please God. VS I gave food to the hungry, because my heart feels pain for their suffering and want to see them well. Jesus means to save, to rescue, meanings of Love.

[@kimbirch1202]

From my research, it is clear that only a small fragment of the teachings of Jesus made into the Bible, and not even that is 100 % accurate. It is also clear that , following the crucifixion, several sects emerged, each with their own understanding of the teachings. Paul's ideas eventually won out and became accepted doctrine, yet the contemporary accounts of the disciples Thomas, and Mary disagreed, and so were rejected by the new church. Fortunately, we now have the full, comprehensive teachings of Jesus available, known as A Course In Miracles, which is essential reading for anyone who claims to be a Christian. Yet, the church hierarchies are unlikely to admit that they have been mistaken for 2,000 years. I suggest folk read it themselves, and make their own minds up.

[@jimmoss9584]

Paul, was an opportunist who made a life for himself, from the life of another.

[@stylis666]

And thus the tradition of the christian church was founded.

[@mosswareproaudio6328]

Catholic Church.

[@terencedavid3146]

If one does not take the opportunities life affords affords them, then that person is a fool. A word of advice mate, stay far from such people.

[@jeffersonneto1378]

Really?! .. the man was persecuted and killed by his faith... How in the world is that opportunistic?!

[@jmoss99]

That is not a test of anything. He made made a business decision and built himself a life out of nothing. All the weird S--t comes from Paul, not Christ. Religion is full of con-artists. Just look at the Mormon religion. I studied comparative religions in college. People fall for the fear aspect of religion. A lot of religions are studied on psychology courses they are so bazaar under the title of influence. You cannot see this if you are in it. How many times have I heard "I don't read the bible, I just have faith". Where is that at? It is like you have your own personal faith that you call Christian, but it is not connected to anything that Christ ever said. That is called crazy.

[@andreasschuldei9033]

its funny seeing Magen interact with James vs her interact with Bart. Her interactions with Bart are much more on eye-level and conversational while james is rather frontal, talking and magan hardly gets a word in. I like the more back-and-forth style of bart and magan.

[@justmagicmostly]

Agreed. That's all on James for just continuing to talk over while she's trying to interject. I found it pretty off-putting.

[@Jay_in_Japan]

Seems suspicious that a persecutor of Christ's followers would become one of their main proponents... almost as if, in order to destroy Jesus' teachings, Paul infiltrated the group & subverted it from the inside...

[@NoSpam1891]

Oldest trick in the book. "I was a sinner but the love of Jeeeesus saved me!" Still works 2,000 years later.

[@elle6621]

There is one interesting detail/ similarity about the Paul’s Hebrew name “Saul” and story of King Saul in the Old Testament. King Saul persecuted David like Paul did with the early followers of Jesus (messiah). And the future Messiah is expected to come from this Davidic Line. This makes me think whether Paul chose or mentioned the name Saul refering the story of Kind Saul and David. I think this similarity would be impactful especially among the Jewish followers of Jesus and affirm the idea that Jesus was the Messiah from the house of David.

[@nienkepoiesz3023]

I don't think Paul ever mentioned the name Saul himself. I think it is only mentioned in Acts,written by "Luke". But it is an interresting analogy nontheless.

[@ruthbates9549]

Saul from the tribe of Benjamin also suffered from a "troubling spirit".

[@Nick-Nasti]

It's just transition of the same name. Example: Josua = Jesus

Much of the new testament is just a re-working of Old Testament stories.

[@Purwapada]

I lovethis episode so many fascinating points made. Tabor is great

[@jwebb]

Saul didn't see the messiah. He saw a light and heard a voice. Not that he would have recognized Him if he had seen Him.

[@hermithefrog629]

And apparently his followers with him there saw the light but did not hear the voice. In a later account, they did not hear the light OR hear the sound. Very fishy.

[@majesticrainmaker1460]

@Vincent Verona prophet Bart Ehrman peace be upon him

[@diansc7322]

@@hermithefrog629 the later account is the one found in acts

[@secallen]

@@hermithefrog629who says Paul had any followers with him? Is there any independent proof that Paul was real not fictional

[@Nick-Nasti]

@vincentverona7773paul avoids having to describe Jesus by having only seen a "light".

[@stedmanlawson5375]

Should I doubt Paul's words that he was called from he was in his mother's womb? wasn't he the the same person who was of the name Saul and was going about persecuting Christians?

[@SeekingVirtueA]

Why do you doubt Aristotle’s testimony of the wonders worked by Pythagoras? There were many witnesses to his miraculous signs in his day.

[@BortolanAlexandre]

Wow, talk about false equivalence.

[@wiskadjak]

In 1st Corinthians 11:4-5 Paul goes on at length about head coverings. He also strongly implies that it is OK for women to prophecy as long as their heads are covered. In the following chapters he writes about spiritual gifts but not a word about boys only until we get to 14:34-36. Here the text changes from Paul's usual active 1st person voice to weasel words about how women should be silent in church. I think this is a much later, orthodox, interpolation. Paul was an aggressive radical. I don't think he would have put up with this kind of ret-con rubbish.

[@beastshawnee]

An eyewitness by definition MUST be seen with the eyes NOT a visionary mental experience…

[@nedsantos1415]

I have Dr. Ehrman to thank for finding the right spiritual path for myself after spending my teen years in a cult.

[@dmythica]

Glad you got out. What cult?

[@michaeltelson9798]

Myself, I grew up in Bishop John Shelby Spong’s diocese in northern NJ which started me on my path that has lead to Dr. Ehrman and others.

@@michaeltelson9798 I love Bishop Spong's books. The first one I read was "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism." It really helped me rethink so much.

[@ashcross]

I wish you all the best with your family issue, and thank you for posting another informative and engaging video.

[@naradaian]

Wow - that’s a very very very brave and clear discussion on a subject almost no one goes remotely near….wow

[@andresvillarreal9271]

One small detail about cloning: due to the complexities of epigenetics, you can get an exact copy of your favorite pet as far as DNA goes, but the copy might have lots of small differences from the original. Your new pet can donate organs to your old pet but be different enough in color and shape as to make you feel that you were conned.

[@nasonguy]

The more I learn about genetics as a whole, the more I realize that genetics is, well.... messy, complex, kind of a spaghetti bowl, and not at all straightforward.

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

You forget that you could love the copy as much, which would you sacrifice for the other

[@andresvillarreal9271]

@@mariaandreaspashi1931 There are big problems with making clones of pets or any other organism and then expecting to love the second organism as if it was the first one. Love it less, love it more, or whatever, but please do not love it or interact with it based on the idea that it is a copy. In fact, I have an identical twin brother, so I have the closest thing to a clone that exists among humans. And we are not copies, we are two perfectly distinct persons who happen to be very similar in several respects. I forgot why this subject appeared in this video, but the one thing I can say is that even the idea of sacrificing one for the other is totally flawed.

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

@@andresvillarreal9271 I agree, that's the meaning in my comment, not that one would love the clone based on sameness, but on a living breathing being, as individual.

[@iyepmamun2315]

Bart is one of the most favorite scholars .

[@investigandolabiblia]

Me too even though I don’t always agree with him especially when he talks about Hebrew Scriptures but there is always nuggets of scholarly wisdom all over the place

[@arvilmogensen1945]

QUESTION: The Bible story of Paul’s “enlightenment” that instigated his conversion from an oppressor of those committed to the teaching of Jesus to a supporter while walking with some other men has been a contentious issue of understanding for me. Paul is overtaken, my choice of a word to describe his “Eureka” moment. Translation of tangible items from one language to another is often problematic as I have learned from personal experience. Translation across more than 2 languages also raises my concern. Translating feelings of emotion between several languages arguably even more difficult. I know neither Aramaic, Ancient Greek or Latin. However Dr. Erhman is acquainted with these ancient languages or who has access to expert linguists who can offer informed thought about the English word description of Paul’s experience. My question is: Is the English word translation of his experience, a “vision” an “epiphany of thought” or possibly either option or something else?

[@PatrickPease]

We got a substitute teacher today? i bet he makes us watch a video...

[@PatrickPease]

♥️ such an honor!

[@tmstani23]

It sounds from this like Paul was bi-polar.

[@barrymoore4470]

I do suspect he suffered from mental illness (his conversion experience on the road to Damascus could easily be interpreted as a psychotic episode).

[@tmstani23]

@@barrymoore4470 Yea I suppose with a purely materialist perspective there is no room for revelation as it will always be considered some form of psychosis or natural pattern recognition. But it does seem like from his personality characteristics and preponderance of psychotic episodes and mania as well as narcissism that he was bipolar or something similar

[@justmagicmostly]

James could do a much better job at allowing Megan to interject. I know her voice was a little damaged but i have to believe he can see her trying to participate in the conversation and too often he just talks over her. But otherwise this was an enjoyable dialogue.

[@bartdehrman]

Hey it's Chris writing for Bart. I think he was having trouble hearing her. He's normally a very good "turn taker!" :)

[@justmagicmostly]

@@bartdehrman that's reassuring

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

Many older men have trouble hearing softer, higher pitched voices. It's a physical fact. It's also a sign that maybe he should start looking into hearing aids. 😉

[@justmagicmostly]

@@dianadeejarvis7074 again, he is watching Megan on the screen for the entirety of the interview. Surely he knows when her lips move it indicates she is speaking.

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

@@justmagicmostly we don't know how closely he's watching her lips, especially with her fabulous eyewear. It's harder to notice than you think. My comment is based on personal experience in conversations with older men. I've sometimes had to tap them on the arm, for example.

[@ThisTrainIsLost]

Megan is conducting an interview but the good Doctor is giving a lecture.

[@handstandish]

Fantastic compelling viewing. Thanks Bart. James was a wonderful speaker.

[@EvanGrambas]

Insightful, reflective speaker - analyser of words and ideas, interestingly

[@pamjohnson5316]

Thanks for what y'all are doing great talks I'm learning so much I have been searching for answers for

[@quasicroissant]

poor Megan can't get a word in edgewise 😅 Her voice being gone certainly wasn't helpful in that regard

[@justmagicmostly]

It's still James fault for talking over her constantly

[@mariaandreaspashi1931]

Bart, my sympathies to you and your family, I know the seperation of a loved one is most painful, be well always.

[@tookie36]

These podcasts are fantastic

[@pinball1970]

Hey Bart, my thoughts and love are with you guys.

[@connornicholas5227]

I am so sorry for your loss Bart Ehrman. May your Mom rest in peace. 😔❤️🙏

[@nm425]

I love this content but gently suggesting, Dr Tabor should look into better microphones. This is very poor audio.

[@lovetwentyfourseven7428]

The glory is within all things; and he is saying that the glory within you is what rises up. Comparing it to a seed in a plant. When the shell cracks. The plant then becomes.

[@jrhemmerich]

At 53:40 Dr. Tabor is asked a good question about Paul’s Jewish background, and belief in the resurrection in contrast to the rather heavenly or spiritualized Greek view that Dr. Tabor has of Paul. I’m always surprised when intelligent people just skip right over how Paul uses/defines spiritual body in 1 Cor. 15:42, “What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable….It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” Evidently, Paul understands spiritual as the equivalent of giving the quality of immortality to a resurrected mortal body in this cosmos. It really is not more difficult than that. The same thing is indicated in 1 Peter 1:4. The ponderings about where Jesus went upon his ascension has reasonable possibilities besides freezing on the moon. The third heaven was mentioned, but it is quit likely that heaven is not thought of as “up there” but more as a dimension that is on the other side of what we can see. So Jesus did not just go up, but crossed over into that side of reality called heaven in scripture. There really is no good reason to go outside of Hebrew culture to understand what Paul was saying. We just have to pay attention to what he actually says. He will often tell us what he means. Anyway, it’s always interesting to listen. Thanks.

your view of heaven is a common one now, but does not appear in the bible. No "dimensions" were mentioned. The creation myths have heaven located above the (flat disk) earth just above a big dome in the sky that has windows in it to let rain fall on earth.

[@jrhemmerich]

The word dimensions never appears. But the concept of an unseen world that overlaps this physical reality is presented. It’s presented in the way that angels interact with the world. It’s presented in Ezekiel’s vision of Yahweh’s presence in the temple. It’s presented in Daniel’s throne room of the ancient of days in the clouds of heaven. It’s presented in Revelation with the throne room of God and Jesus upon the throne. As far as the view of the three story universe and a flat disk, that is never described in the scriptures. For example, the firmament is just a translation of raqia, which is a boundary, but nothing indicates it was solid as opposed to porous. This is mere inference. And certain descriptions indicate it was porous atmosphere. For example the birds fly across the “raqia” (expanse)(Gen. 1:20). While the stars are also in the expanse (raqia, Gen 1:14). I have some degree of classical education and languages. In fact, I’ve looked around and not found ancient cosmology described in any other ancient text. The flat earth-solid dome view seems to have been created by scholars (e.g. Bultmann) as a summary of various observations made about how some ancients would describe the world. But the description itself is not found in the texts. If you know of an example, I’d be interested to see it. Sumerologist S.N. Kramer, never gives us his basis for believing why the Sumerians believed the sky was solid. In their view he says, “the earth was a flat disk surmounted by a vast hollow space, completely enclosed by a solid surface in the shape of a vault. Just what this heavenly solid was thought to be is still uncertain.” (Sumerians, pg. 113). He goes on to speculate that it was tin. Often this is all drawn from speculation based upon etymology and little tid bits of suggestion here or there. Often pictures from Egyptian depictions are offered..and deductions are drawn from them. The point is that ancient cosmology itself is a product of modern speculative reconstruction. The way the Bible is interpreted is often put to the support of this construction. The problem being that there are no obvious cosmological descriptions, but rather empirical descriptions in the Bible. Descriptions that can be turned various ways. And then we have the use of metaphors, such as God having storerooms of wind, but nothing tells us if this was crudely understood as literal or just an human analogy to give a meaningful word picture to mysterious process that were only partly understood. The picture clearly communicates ownership and control. They probably would have laughed if you asked them where this storeroom was. We have all kinds of descriptions for scientific realities that are not literal. If our science were judged in the future by our everyday usage of such word pictures, one could make complete children of us all. Many such pictures are not understood of reality, but as aids to understanding. All in all, I am not ignorant of the discussion of these topics, but I find ancient cosmology to be highly speculative and rather uncharitable towards how they consciously used metaphors for what they knew they did not fully understand. Such humility is often lacking today in spite of our great ignorance. We think if we can give a mathematical description that we have explained something. Wiser people will just smile knowingly at this mistake. Such is the world of ancient cosmological “scholarship.” As I see it, the view of heaven as a parallel, unseen but very real reality is contained in scripture, and designated by the term “heaven.”

[@mardishores4016]

Since Jesus was crucified years before he 'appeared' to Paul, how could Paul 'know' what Jesus looked like?

[@keithsmith3678]

Good question!

[@defer114]

He met people that knew Jesus, they could have just described what he looked like.

[@renocicchi7346]

@@defer114the funny thing is, the Bible says almost nothing about how Jesus looked, except that he didn’t stand out in any particular way. It would be hard for people to describe how a completely normal person looked many years later, when even today eyewitness accounts are so unreliable that days after a crime can have innocent people be sent to prison

[@defer114]

@@renocicchi7346 Paul writes that he met Jesus' brother James as well as the Apostle Simon Peter, pretty sure his own brother would have known how he looked.

[@EricTheYounger]

I mean Paul was alive when Jesus was alive. It’s not hard to imagine they could have met before the crucifixion.

[@albionicamerican8806]

Paul obviously couldn't have foreseen what later generations of Christians would do with his writings, but it is unfortunate that the products of his mediocre, unremarkable mind became so important in Western culture.

[@onejohn2.26]

Some feel, that Paul decided to kill the Church from the inside, because he couldn't kill them all. Most Christians won't be saved, because of Paul's word salad.

[@longlakeshore]

Paul had no idea his letters would become scripture two centuries later but given his arrogance I am almost certain he wouldn't object! smh...

[@onejohn2.26]

@@longlakeshore What is also interesting, is, that the man who pushed Paul's writings into the Bible was Marcion. He was considered to be a heretic and the sun of satan, but he was a huge Paul fan.

[@joecurran2811]

​@@onejohn2.26 Did he include them in the first canon? Weird because he didn't like the OT God because he was cruel and therefore must have been different to the NT God.

[@onejohn2.26]

@@joecurran2811 as far as I know Paul's writings have always been in the cannon I don't agree with the god of the Old testament being cruel He made justice for justice was due when he had the Hebrews go in and destroy the people that were occupying the land those people were the Nehilim not fully human that was also the reason for the flood that and sin being rampant That is also the reason that the world would be destroyed now because of ramp and sin and the nephilim will return as in the days of Noah

[@roeescharf104]

Misquoting Paul sounds like an awesome book

[@sebolddaniel]

Megan is a wonderful interviewer. It stands to reason that Paul would say tent. Perhaps tent maker is an appropriate metaphor.

[@rachelhansen2417]

The more I learn about Paul, the more I dislike him. He feels more like a cult leader than anything.

[@mauricematla8379]

OC he was. They all were envolved in that game. Any church literally IS a cult.

[@propitiated4]

@@mauricematla8379I don’t think you know what “cult” means, because you’re using it completely incorrectly.

[@mauricematla8379]

@@propitiated4Or ,perhaps, you are missing somerhing here.

[@propitiated4]

@@mauricematla8379 You use a word incorrectly, and your reply is I am missing something. Yeah. Okay.

[@tedgrant2]

Peter Popoff claims to have spoken with Jesus, about me and what he wants me to do. Apparently, if I make a small donation, Jesus will reward me many times over ! It's a pity Jesus didn't cut out the middle man and talk to me directly.

[@simonkoster]

At the end of part one, when Dr. James describes Paul's attitude towards his followers vs. his opponents, Paul comes across as a textbook narcissistic cult leader.

[@HannahMitchell-Art]

Exactly what I thought. Ugh.

[@nienkepoiesz3023]

I disagree, he comes across as a turbulent bundel of emotions. (In his letters, that is.). Unless one prefers a more clinical view and suspects it to be all clever manipulation, I found him to be rather endearing, all together.

[@ivettepalacin8599]

I appreciated Tabor’s suggestion that the early church letters, being a couple decades after Jesus dies, is probably most accurate of who Paul was. By the second interview, part two, Tabor takes up all the podcast’s oxygen, a shame.

[@andybeans5790]

Those specs are amazing, Megan

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

The story I have heard I found interesting is Paul wanted to be a Rabbi. But he was not accepted by the Rabbinical School because he was not intellectual enough. However they gave him the job of pursuing Jewish Christians because they were blaspheming about the Messiah. The Rabbis were wrong because Paul turned out to be the greatest marketer of all time.

A good story, most likely a fictional one.

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

Aren’t they all!

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

Thank you for this. It was interesting information.

[@chadgarber]

Was waiting!

[@Леонид-с5з]

15:47 17:31 19:04 19:34 20:02 24:39 25:10

[@kimbirch1202]

Wasn't it Paul who came up with the idea that the crucifixion was some kind of sacrificial atonement for sin ? As Paul wasn't even a disciple of Jesus, how could he have understood the true message of Jesus ? And why did the early Church suppress the gospels of Stephen, Thomas Didymus, and Mary Magdalene? All actual disciples ! Very strange.

[@HannahMitchell-Art]

Those other gospels were too expansive and were less useful to control populations

[@kimbirch1202]

@@HannahMitchell-Art Most folk would be shocked at what Jesus really teaches. He teaches that there is no world, no bodies, and no persons with separate minds. He teaches that there is ONLY God, and that we cannot be separate, or differently from " Him "

[@kimbirch1202]

@@HannahMitchell-Art Christian doctrine is based on the very primitive old belief of some original sin, that could only be atoned for by human sacrifice to appease an angry, judgmental God. Whenever there was some kind of natural disaster, such as a crop failure, the Hebrew tribes assumed that they must have disobeyed this phoney God, and so would sacrifice goats, in order to get back in his " good books ". And so some of the Jewish followers of Jesus, assumed that Jesus had to be crucified as a similar kind of sacrifice. Jesus himself would have laughed at such superstitious nonsense, as he taught a totally different God of perfect love, who judges no one.

[@CasperLCat]

If Paul really had a vision of the same Jesus who taught the other Apostles for 3 years back here on Planet Earth, how could they disagree so vehemently on the basics of the Gospel, as recorded in Galatians ?

[@longcastle4863]

👍

[@author_veronicaj]

Vespasian was likely Paul in the New Testament since it says in Titus 1:4 that Titus was one of the younger men whom Paul discipled and described as his 'son in the faith that we share'. Paul's character was taken from Saul from the Old Testament.

[@raycaster4398]

The greatest instance of gaslighting in our history is the claim with no evidence that there is an afterlife. ETERNAL afterlife, perhaps Christianity's greatest attraction. All flimflammery. "Live forever." There is life before death, not after death. Ray: "Dead is dead."

[@danbreeden8738]

Your show Is wonderful

[@phoenixkennedy5927]

No one does a better job than Bernadette Roberts at explaining the difference between resusitation and resurrection.

[@shock_n_Aweful]

In ancient Greek religious thought, death is sometimes described as Sleep, there are so many things in Christianity that come from the Greek world that IMO it qualifies as a Syncretism.

[@Barry1611]

It's hilarious how Megan tries to end the interview so many times, but James doesn't notice and just keeps talking 😂

[@Darisiabgal7573]

James really knows how to bring forth the essence of what drives Paul in a way that no one else seems to be able. If we take the special pleading out of Paul, he was a mystic and his mysticism drives his theology. Galatians makes this clear, he spent 15 days with Peter, Jesus’s right hand man, but learned nothing. And yet in 2Cor he is disclosing things that he learned he’s not supposed to be telling. So his kind of doorway person into his mysticism (that he’s afraid to mention) is telling him that this is esoteric stuff, not to be talked about. But Paul has pulled out all the stops to defend his character and authority. In referring to himself in the 3rd person is like the worst way to hide the fact that you are revealing stuff you are not supposed to reveal. Paul really doesn’t care he is driven in his delusion. So where behind Paul is this process. We need to dig into this. Paul claims he’s a Pharisee having studied in the Gamaliel school but at the same time he’s out harassing the followers “of the way” as if he belongs to the Saducees. He infers that he is in the Herodian family and so the second makes more sense. At some point in his life these two came to a clash and he began his inner look for the truth, that sort of peaks in his 3 year stint in the Aravah. So a point I could make is that while the Bible makes some handwaving about the forty days in the wilderness, the trip into Arabia was not a new mystical escape. Nabonidus spent 10 years or so in Tayma and there are these thin tendrils of lore about the Apkallu coming from the Red Sea. Mohammad identified Yathrib as the city of enlightenment. People had been going into the desert for a millenium before seeking spiritual enlightenment and Paul in his journey seems to have stumbled into another Jewish mystic, probably familiar with the cult of “the way of the light” and Paul is learning this practice as well as the mystical ideas of this person(s). Then he is adding his own ideas and experiences and taking ownership of this. It is very important, even though we can’t really see the process of Paul’s conversion, that we don’t lose sight that this was a mystical process that Paul empowered via his “desert” magic. He is essentially assembling things people of his age believed made a person more spiritual, forward, into a practice where he can really draw upon the experiential richness of his mystical imagination. And this is where the problem with Paul begins. Delusion is not with the experience, but the drawing the experience into a core motivation of expression, and as we can see Paul is not afraid to express this. Certain ideas are just irrational. The linking of random gentiles in Greece with the lost Israelite tribes dispersed by Assyria is a far stretch. And people might wonder did Paul really believe this? But what constitutes Sin is minimally define by the Noahide code, which applies specifically to those who believe they are descended from Noah. I can’t imagine this being any more than a tiny fraction of Greco-Roman’s at the time. Paul is trying to sell them the idea that they had sin (sons of Noah), that there was no way for them to be sinless (perfectly pious), and thus they needed his special/premium salvatory belief. There are problems with this, while the Noahide laws, 7, are rather simple they represent groupings of laws that do not represent the ritual laws of Judaism. And yet Paul is trying to bring the unconverted to Jerusalem to the temple? Somehow Paul is using his mysticism to guide him through the minefield between “spirituality” and pious belief in city-state belief systems. This then gets to the bigger problem dealing with his beliefs in the prompt return of Jesus as the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead and the constitution of the kingdom of heaven on Earth. It goes without saying this did not happen and so it was objectively a big delusion on his part. But more of a problem that has threads going back into mystics of the Hebrew Bible, how do you handle false prophets? Again we have Pauline texts in the NT that seem to be there because Marcion built a canon around them. So at least Marcion Christians did not have a problem with Paul because they are simply compartmentalizing the Hebrew Bible as this thing attached to an older god who screwed things up. The growth of Gnosticism moves the Jesus cult out of biblical messiah and into an other worldly “coming and going”. I personally, as a mystic, see major problems with this developing philosophy in Judaism. The essential problem with Pauline mysticism is that it chops the nose to spite the face. The Hebrew Bible, as a representation of human spirituality is deeply flawed, and is full of contradictory opinions, exclusive spirituality, and pejorative rituals. But it carried the epitomy of wisdom from the most ancient of mystical thinkers forward and now we can say it was a piece of a larger puzzle of society building in the ancient Near East. We now have this bigger picture with Gilgamesh, Enuma Elis, DSS and large numbers of stories (And thanks to Megan we can hear these read out over at DH). We need these text, warts and all. The issue Paul is promoting is a messiah of sort of western renovation, we had all these old things given by the scribes, priests and prophets, but god is going to replace these with new stuff and for Paul the end could not come soon enough. “So we kinda screwed things up here, god, how soon can you come and tweek it”. An example of this is Ezekiel 20: 25-26 where the prophet is explaining why they made sacrifices but certain stuff needs to stop, cause, like, it’s like primitive. In Jeremiah it never happened (let’s pretend we never committed child sacrifice, ok guys). In essence a redemptive repair is needed and the mystics are reaching forward in the imagination a Jerusalem rising as a replacement Ninevah or Babylon. So I want to point out what the problem is here that seems always to be missed. Out of the swamp Mesopotamia arose without pretense of greatness and it became great, but in its greatness its fatal flaw became evident. The coming kingdom on earth is a belief that we can build a Babylon that itself will not collapse under its weight, that somehow god will bring down a secret recipe. Out of Jezreel Israel arose from the settling dust of the late Bronze Age collapse. The stories reflected a time when, at the bottom of the pit, everyone looked upward and they did climb out of the pit. And Samuel tells the people what their aspirations as a kingdom will get them. These are the cycles of human endeavor. It’s not so much about fixing human folly, but recognizing the folly and finding a path to the next future. Rather than look for Jerusalem rising we really should be more focused on Eridu falling, because this was the birth place of the desert sage, and when you see your sages heading to the desert, let alone your king, watch out. There is no more swamp, it’s a sterile salt flat humans built ….how many times does this need to be repeated so that we might learn our lesson. ἐπιφάνεια is just a way of avoiding learning the hard lessons. That is Paul. What drives Paul is his cognitive dissonance of his Jewish belief. His escape hatch to paradise is his mysticism where he latches onto his self-made Xristos. But heaven is just the skies celebrated as the divine, it doesn’t come down to earth.

[@garygutierrez3693]

Sorry, but the title of this episode seems misleading. The conversation was interesting, but they don't really talk about the historicity of Paul. Thanks

[@KeepingWatch95]

Perhaps they are true followers of Paul... 2 Corinthians 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

[@kacang2]

Would be great to hear James Tabor debate this with NT Wright. One from an extreme skeptical view vs a conservative mainstream believer’s view. Is this podcast willing to facilitate?

[@LandELiberation]

As a response to the point about ascent literature I would argue the sefer hekalot contains excerpts of reports of similar experiences that give the best context for Paul's ascent given a late second-temple background

[@johnrogers7772]

A great video. The discussion in Part 2 concerning Paul's conception of the afterlife is very similar to modern-day NDE descriptions (i.e., Dr's Mary Neal and Eben Alexander). Paul possibly had a NDE after being stoned in Deby and being left for dead outside the city gate. Which may explain his 'vision'.

[@Purwapada]

or the mystical experience. Kenosis etc. very neoplatonic

[@honeysucklecat]

Paul lied. Best explanation. It’s obvious he was a con man.

[@johnrogers7772]

@@busterbiloxi3833 Near Death Experience. Bruce Greyson's videos on KZbin are a good place to start researching. Beware - there is a lot of variety in people's recollections, which can be very subjective. Greyson is an academic researcher and MD.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@r0ky_M People are revived after heart stoppage. “Brain death”? i. e . the cessation of brain activity, no one cones back from.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@r0ky_M No, that is popular usage. In medicine, that is not a thing. They would instead characterize the type heart problem (v-tach, etc)

[@veikoplays]

Megan I hope You have recovered and feel well!

[@paulohagan3309]

Agreed.Towards the end the poor girl looked like she just wanted it to be over and get back to her sick bed. Should have cut it short no matter how fascinating,

[@SiqueScarface]

Somehow I am reminded of a gravestone inscription: That I died - you know that. Wether I am in heaven - you ask that. Not dying, but being in heaven - you want that.

[@vvaloachi7263]

Paul never said that, he is writing on behalf of Holy spirit. he just wrote a letter to his friends. Then his followers made that simple letter into ''word of God'' !!!! .

[@robertjimenez5984]

It is curious that he questioned his students about what Paul said. What about questioning what someone said that never wrote anything, no one writes anything about this person during his life time, quoted decades later by anonymous writers that didn’t speak the language of the person they supposedly know what he said? And then today we quote the person as if we know what the hell did he say. This is by definition ridiculous.

[@Birch37]

I'ld be really really interested on where James and Bart disagree and why?

[@elzoog]

What is his evidence that Paul said that even if the apostles disagree with him, he's still right?

[@Mari_Oh]

Even when I was a hard-core believer, I always thought Paul came off as a narcissistic a-hole.