Bas van Fraassen - How Does Philosophy Illuminate the Physical World?

[@paul-d-mann]

How awesome is it to listen to a conversation that is mutually interested and engaged with the sharing insightful thought.

[@jazzythoughts-maat-ra]

Excellent content! 🙏🏾💚🌱

[@fredm5180]

Thank you for this interview. This is the way.

[@peweegangloku6428]

Thanks for this episode. Excellent one.

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

Excellent and ordinary are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@simonhibbs887]

Empiricism is deference to observations, to the best descriptions we have at any given time for the observations we have and our predictive mathematical models of causation. This is basic empiricism. As he says in the interview, empiricism and the scientific method is about how to give up your beliefs. It's about the criteria for updating our models of the world. That's what makes it about evidence, not faith. It's also what makes science an ongoing project, because we're not finished yet, there is more to learn and there are further updates to our models to be made. Physicalism is an opinion that goes a bit beyond that and says that all the phenomena we observe can be explained by these models of causation. This is refutable. If we came across a phenomenon that could not be explained by a mathematical model of causation, where we cannot evaluate the initial conditions and calculate the system's later future state, then physicalism would be proved wrong. This is what makes physicalism a falsifiable scientific position and not a faith based belief.

[@simonhibbs887]

@@vladimirrogozhin7797 It's the best understanding we have, supported by pretty strong evidence, so I don't have a problem with that. I think what's more important is that people understand science, what it is and what it's limitations are. We need to be able to teach scientific results because we need to be able to teach engineers, doctors, designers, and the next generation of scientists. It's also important people have access to information about how the technology they use works, how and why medicines and medical technologies and techniques work. Nobody is imposing the big bang on anybody. Plenty of people here on this comments section deny it vigorously and nobody's going to come round to their house and drag them off for it. There's evidence, this is the best way we have so far of interpreting that evidence, and it's reasonable to say so.

[@peweegangloku6428]

Even faith has to be based on evidence according to the Bible. "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." - Hebrews 11:1

[@simonhibbs887]

@@peweegangloku6428 Thanks for that, as I usually do I checked some different translations. That's a good way to get a feel for the text, and the 'evident demonstration of realities' bit seems controversial. Many of the translations say something equivalent to 'the conviction of things not seen' which implies belief without evidence. What is hoped for doesn't seem like a strong evidential foundation, and things not seen doesn't sound like any kind of evidence either.

[@peweegangloku6428]

The King Jsmes version also says this, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." We can also look at the context of faith as used in the Bible in order to understand the contextual meaning. Moses is described as one who had faith. Hebrews 11:27 says, "By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible." Moses demonstrated this faith based on the demonstration of evidence at the moment he was commissioned by Jehovah, God, to deliver the Israelites from Egyptian bondage. Here is the interaction: "Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said: “I will go over to inspect this unusual sight to see why the thornbush does not burn up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” (Exodus 3:2-4) You can see the investigative mind of Moses in the above. He went to investigate the unusual phenomenon. Next, Exodus 4:1-4 says, "However, Moses answered: “But suppose they do not believe me and do not listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘Jehovah did not appear to you.’” 2 Then Jehovah said to him: “What is that in your hand?” He answered: “A rod.” 3 He said: “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Reach out your hand and seize it by the tail.” So he reached out and seized it, and it became a rod in his hand." In verses 6 and 7 Moses' hand was stricken with leprosy and made to heal thereafter as a second evidence of an unusual source of power that served as his support. Moses thereafter still expressed doubt about his public speaking ability. Again he was given an assurance of support. (Exodus 4:10-12) So it is clear that Moses' fath was not just a matter of conviction. He asked for convincing evidence. The Bible is replete with accounts of this sort. We can go on listing how Gideon asked that a fleece of wool should get wet while the rest of the ground remained dry and he on the following day reversed his request that the fleece remain dry while the rest of the ground got wet. (Judges 6:36-40) The shadow going back ten steps; (2 Kings 20:9-11) Jesus' evidentiary reassurance to John the Baptist that he, Jesus, was the promised Messiah (Matthew 11:2-6). Then the Bible also adds, "prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2) Does that sound like mere conviction or credulity?

[@dharmatycoon]

But the point Bas is making is that physicalism wouldn't disappear even if we came across such a phenomenon. Instead this phenomenon would be counted as something physical in due time. This illustrates that physicalism is a (or a collection of) attitude(s), and not a thesis.

[@MichaelLührmann]

Really great - I feel at peace when I listen to him! 🙂

[@monkerud2108]

the people who say, now we know this or now we know that are really only saying they are satisfied with their own understanding of a model, whether they admit it is a toy or not.

[@offtheradarsomewhere.]

If the mind is illuminated the outside physical world will be too, if the mind is dark the outside world will be dark, the stars illuminate the whole universe nothing but pure energy and light and we our the fabrics of stars ✨💙🙏

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

😬

[@offtheradarsomewhere.]

@@halcyon2864 Light illuminates the beauty of this world by the quality of our perceptions and emotions, negative low vibrational thoughts, emotions and feelings will interpret the world differently, different states of consciousness will definitely change all our perceptions feelings and emotions and experiences 🙏

[@offtheradarsomewhere.]

@@halcyon2864 beautiful ✨💙🙏

[@josephhruby3225]

Wonderful

[@31428571J]

"Everything we call real is made up of things that cannot be regarded as real” - Niels Bohr.

[@1stPrinciples455]

And the world Real maybe defined differently by different people because language is Ambigous

[@JustAThought01]

Information is not physical - it is more. We store information in physical structures; but, information itself is not physical.

[@simonhibbs887]

The word for information that doesn't exist physically is hypothetical. A poem nobody has yet written, or a book that doesn't exist but is described in a work of fiction. A comment you have not yet composed but might post as a reply to mine. All information that actually does exists in the world does so in a physical form. I think we've discussed this in relation to software before, but I hope you can see that actual software you can run on your computer does exist as physical patterns of electrical charge in your computer. Without those patterns of charge, there is nothing to run.

[@JustAThought01]

@@simonhibbs887, I did not say that information does not exist. I said that it is not itself physical. This has importance in philosophical reasoning. We can think about concepts in our minds and make decisions about useful knowledge without having access to the physical information (sensory input). Communicating the information requires giving it a physical form.

[@simonhibbs887]

@@JustAThought01 That implies that information in the mind isn’t physical, but we know the brain is an information processing system based on neural networks. In fact our brain are by far the most powerful computers on the planet. We understand many of the mechanisms by which they function including memory retention and motor function. So we know the brain encoded vast amounts of information in physical form. We can even now read and interpret conceptual information from fMRI scans. From a conceptual point of view, if information is not physical, how can it have physical effects? If you agree it can be physical, how does it become physical? What do you think that process looks like?

[@JustAThought01]

@@simonhibbs887, good question. First, I approach learning from the philosophical point of view. I do not know if the physical world even exists. All I know for sure is that my thoughts exist. However, I do assume that the world does indeed exist just as I sense it. The purpose of the human body is to allow actions based upon thoughts. Thoughts serve to plan and carry out actions. The question we all need to focus on is why does reality exist and are humans intelligent, rational beings?

[@JustAThought01]

Intelligent, rational entities do not increase risks to themselves by waging war among themselves, overpopulating their environment or causing global warming.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

what ways can approach the Anselm argument that which is greatest is really greatest?

[@billyblim1213]

The Light has chosen this man to prepare the way for the one who will guide us.

[@monkerud2108]

the material world makes its own sense, and that is the only sense there is, it includes human beings who are wrong, and who are careful just as well, and the true character carrying us into these predicaments has to be somewhat obscure to us and can only be gotten at by a slow process of understanding our own mistaken notions of it.

[@gettaasteroid4650]

O star-eyed science, hast though wandered there, To waft us home the message of despair? - Thomas Campbell

[@patientson]

Jesus, so far, questioned everything. But, he also did his work, only ones. Nonstop.

[@wagfinpis]

Excellent is the first word that comes to mind and I see in the comments it is a popular occurrence. I love his definition of imperialist! 💚

[@kallianpublico7517]

What does understanding understand? Between sensibility and reason lies subjectivity - personal interest if not personal purpose. Can we untie the self from science? Is electricity out there or is it, partially, in us? In what part of us, our sensibility or our reason? Is there anything completely outside our sensibility? If there is can reason not infer it? Even that which is outside our sensibility and inferrability can be summed up in a word..unknowability. Even the unknowable is inferrable. Why? How? It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another thing entirely to be cognizant of ignorance. Is humility or insecurity at the foundation of that probing which is called science? If so atheists have no shoes to stand on, only rebellion to hang their hat on. Between fear of the unknown and desire man eats and sleeps. Caught in between suspense and anticipation, his good sense and sensibility force his life into an attitude of expectation. This manifests as entitlement or duty, obsequy or assiduousness and either skepticism or contempt.

[@ReginaJune]

I think Egyptians/Palestinians knew. I’m pretty sure it was spread through various religions mystics and then because of the average person’s intelligence- heresy, witchcraft etc people forgot. 2:16. Education is a wonderful place to bridge the gap between East and West. Not to convert or enlist - see how many similarities you can find.

[@monkerud2108]

easy, i believe that the universe has its own form of substance, that includes all details of reality carried on its own back, meaning in its own form, it has embodied all that moves and how it moves, all the is and how to changes, with no reliance on an equation, or mystical ideas. it has to be self assembling and self consistent, with no loose ends, it acts upon itself locally in the manor it makes sense in its own context and so on, the result of that self carrying substance is what matter is to me, it is unknown in character to us, it has all these consequences that are known and all these consequences that are not, it produces consciousness and plate tectonics alike, it is not subordinated to a human derived physical law, it is only subject to its own law and state which are one and the same. that is the only materialism i subscribe to, everything done in science is just modeling it approximately with loose ends attached.

[@ready1fire1aim1]

Materialist/Empiricist: Zero is not-necessary and nonzero is necessary. Contradiction: in counting numbers 0 is the subject and 1, 2, 3, 4 are the objects. If the subject is not-necessary then who is doing the counting? A year ago quantum physics proved the universe is "not locally real" which means 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D are not-necessary and 0D is necessary. Leibniz calculus and physics (Realist) is based off zero being necessary and nonzero being not-necessary. Humanity chose the wrong guy.

[@ItsEverythingElse]

"Treat our beliefs as worldly goods". What does that even mean.

[@RSCa3218]

Perishable and subject to dramatic changes over a sufficient period of time

[@piehound]

Witchcraft . . . wicked witchcraft. My heart says YES INDEED in me. Proceed with what you're leading me to. Lyric courtesy of Carolyn Leigh. Popularized by Mr. Frank Sinatra 1957.

[@HughChing]

Good presentation checks with CLQ (Culture Level Quotient) = 7 as shown below: The 16 Methods of Reason identify CLQ with examples in brackets: 1) Fuzzy Complete Logic (Self-Creation) 2) Fuzzy Complete Mathematics (Social Prediction) 3) Fuzzy Complete Empirical Verification (Robot) 4) Fuzzy Complete Other Methods of Reason (Religion of Knowledge) 5) Exact Complete Logic (Completely Automated Software) 6) Exact Complete Mathematics (Solution of Value) 7) Exact Complete Empirical Verification (Science) 8) Exact Complete Other Methods of Reason (Religion) 9) Fuzzy Incomplete Logic (Fuzzy Logic) 10) Fuzzy Incomplete Mathematics (Fuzzy Mathematics) 11) Fuzzy Incomplete Empirical Verification (Contact Problem) 12) Fuzzy Incomplete Other Methods of Reason (Beliefs) 13) Exact Incomplete Logic (Logic) 14) Exact Incomplete Mathematics (Mathematics) 15) Exact Incomplete Empirical Verification (Social Science) 16) Exact Incomplete Other Methods of Reason (Mysticism)

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

I am not really concerned about what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin, or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism are moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

@@halcyon2864, that is rather PRESUMPTUOUS of you, wouldn’t you agree, Slave? Presumption is evil, because when one is PRESUMPTUOUS, one makes a judgement about a matter, despite having insufficient facts to support one’s position.

[@deanodebo]

The materialist can still only appeal to immaterial experience

[@bozo5632]

The materialist will say all experience is material.

[@claudiozanella256]

Truth is like an onion with hierarchically ordered layers. In the core level of the onion there is the question: does God exist? All other truth is subordined to that. This is why philosophy so often deals with that problem.

[@michelangelope830]

I want to have a rational and honest conversation with you. I am a psychologist and person of many talents and I declare I have discovered the nature of God and other vital discoveries that are going unnoticed, censored, ignored and not understood. I was religious and atheist and I escaped out of the cults immune to arguments being honest thinking for myself thank God and atheists have explained to me, because I still don't know, what is atheism almost infinite times. I want peace, justice and a better future for future generations. I know God is everything that exist, past, present and future, you name it. Reality is even more fascinating than humanity believe it is because the universe has a purpose. God was born to be alive. Our purpose is to survive. Our purpose is to keep Reality alive. Your life is your perfect eternal hell and heaven and nobody ever got away with hurting God to commit suicide believing existence ends with death. God, oneself, can not be deceived. I am trying to overcome the most severe and devastating censorship in history. I am talking about freedom of expression and knowledge. I am saying I can be right and you wrong. Hurting reality is hurting Time and Space, perfection, mortal perfection. God must go on. The life of God depends on all life in the universe. God is the Mind that experience everything created from self. To end the war the discoveries must be known. I am giving everything doing everything I can with what I got to end atheism and religion. What is the problem?

[@Maxwell-mv9rx]

No matter how guys is saying is phich philosophy proceending absolutetly.

[@Jositoooo]

Spoiler: it doesn’t!

[@michelangelope830]

Is it morally ok to use violence for the greater good? Is it morally ok to use violence for the greatest good? I am a psychologist and person of many talents and i claim I have discovered the nature of God and other vital discoveries that are going unnoticed, censored and not understood. What would you do if you were me to overcome the most severe and devastating censorship in history to save lives with knowledge? What would be the result of the use of violence to force humanity to allow the knowledge that saves their own beautiful, innocent and vulnerable children's lives to be known. I need the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy to be news to preserve knowledge useful for future generations. Atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. I will rephrase the atheist logical fallacy to facilitate the understanding. Atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is "sky daddy" to conclude wrongly no creator exists because "sky daddy" doesn't exist. I find hard to believe I am trying to convince people with university degrees educated with fortunes of public money that knowledge is good and it should not be censored because it saves lives, the lives of your own children. I am talking about reality that is happening in front of your eyes. It is important that you understand I am not asking you to agree with me and everyone can be right or wrong, which doesn't mean I can not be right and humanity wrong. God is Time and Space, everything that exists past, present and future, and you should get out of the circle for your own eternal sake. Eternity is an awful long time being oneself unhappy having been deceived with a lie that looks like a lie. Your life is your perfect eternal hell and heaven, your life is my life and all lives are God's Life. Atheists would not be able to prove their own existence to themselves if the logical conclusion is the creation can not exist without the creator and lose their own children believing without questions asked that gambling causes a brain disease, and when they are told they don't care. Reality is tragic. God is perfect and nobody ever got away pretending to not understand, and foolishness is ugly. I hope for God's sake to be understood.

[@simonhibbs887]

You're posting here publicly and nobody is censoring you. You're probably posting on other social media as well, and I hope you're not being censored there either. I hope you continue to be able to share your views openly with others in peace.

[@michelangelope830]

@@simonhibbs887 I need to overcome a censorship. Would you help me or would you pretend to be dumb and not understood what I just said to you? Foolishness is ugly. I need the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy to be news and i don't particularly care if you agree with me or not. I am talking about knowledge that should not be censored in the first place. Atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Thank you.

[@simonhibbs887]

@@michelangelope830 I understand what you're saying, but as an atheist I know that my atheism and my reasons for it are not what you say they are. That's not censorship, it's just disagreement. Anyway, best wishes.

[@offtheradarsomewhere.]

We all have different beliefs in this world, different upbringings, raised in different countries, communities, cultures ect, my own family and I don't believe in the same things, but I still love them and and don't see no wrong in them as they don't see no wrong in me, what a boring world it would be if we all thought the same, liked and loved the same things, they'd be nothing left for no one and nothing of interest to talk about, life is good with everyone's perceptions within it, except unnecessary violence, intimidation towards others or allowing our personal views and opinions to over look the views of others, narcissism had no room for growth only suffocation of life, although we our all unique we still need to learn from each other✨💙🙏

[@mikel4879]

Philosophy illuminates the physical world in the same way I told you last time: take two electrical wires...😮

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️ Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@HassanAameen]

Its simple that humans work hard at last there is peace but who knows what this people are doing, because I am surprised after I saw the under lied things😂😂😂😂

[@matishakabdullah5874]

He was referring to scientology. Of course it is different from sciences. Philosophy is nothing but you thing you're good and know about the subject matter but without nothing or very shallow inside to start to explain anything other than what science or technology or culture have developed and progressed. He was referring to scientology. Of course it is different from sciences. For example without religions there won't be any religious philosophy! Similarly the philosophy of other fields.

[@JagadguruSvamiVegananda]

Good and bad are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@patientson]

They don't tell others about the deep nature of movement or creative force.