Basic Fantasy RPG Combat Test

In the Basic Fantasy RPG game I'm preparing I have some brand new players, and some folks who have only played D&D 5e, in the party. I took some time to show them how deadly combat can be. It was quite a shock for folks (and yet they still had fun).
To see an actual demonstration of combat, using FoundryVTT and the sandbox system, check out my video here: • Basic Fantasy Combat D...
Check out my initial review of Basic Fantasy RPG here: • Basic Fantasy RPG-Goin...
Download the game for yourself: www.basicfantasy.org
If anyone has an OSR role playing game they'd like me to review feel free to leave a comment on this post.

[@edwardromero3580]

Basic Fantasy is a great system. One of the most underrated games in the OSR, in my humble opinion. I don't actually run it now, as I've morphed into a home brew, but when I was getting back into the hobby, after a decade away, Basic Fantasy was my jam.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

The cost of buying in is certainly a selling point. I’ve enjoyed running it a great deal, the current campaign (online) has been going for a year and a half. One day I may run some sessions in person, but my in person group is running Castles & Crusades at the moment.

[@sharpmountaingames9303]

BFRPG is also great for online play, since everyone can have all the rules for free. My game has a lot of homebrew in it as well. Happy gaming!

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Yah, that zero dollar buy in is a killer feature.

[@lucasmarquesdecamargos4298]

I also like the "combat-fu", as stated by Matt Finch. So instead of just saying "I attack" on the bears, the characters could use the environment to their advantage, or try some maneuver, use some equipment to impose some handicap on the bear, or simply running away dropping some food on the process =)

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Yup, they have learned!

[@toddrlyons]

Hi Wes. I just re-watched this one again because it does such a great job of illustrating the appeal of old-school play. Simultaneous initiative, and fast and deadly combat really does add an edge that makes the stakes feel much higher. I was part of a playtest this week which resulted in 3 character deaths -- and I loved it. Yes, the GM agreed that module needs more tweaking, but I have zero regrets. What a nailbiter that was.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That’s awesome! The funny thing is, ever since then none of the PCs has died because the dice have favored them!

[@Joshuazx]

HP at level 1 houserule: they roll for their hit points and add con, but if they roll less than half of their hit die, they get half rounded up.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That’s rather nice.

[@youareivan]

back in the day when i was playing ad&d in college we used the max hp for level 1 characters all the time. we justified it like you did- there were people who felt a calling to be adventurers, not just everyday people, and had been doing some kind of training to prepare themselves. it also helped magic users survive more than one combat!

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

It’s a house rule with a long and storied history.

[@Tysto]

Gary Gygax let his players reroll their character if the character seemed “hopeless”. And even then he started them at 3rd level so they had decent hit points and spells. Or you could let them add their strength to their hit points. The advantage of that is you can say when their hp get down to 7 or 8, they are wounded & get a penalty to attacks.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Sure. I let character reroll hopeless characters as well. But at my tables we start at level 1.

[@garethmason7920]

The homebrew rules i roll with are very similar to yours : - Max HP at 1st level - Sneak attack bonus if the enemy can't see them or is not engaged with them - I get the players to roll 4D6 and take lowest number away , - I get the players to roll 4D6 straight away and then they can pick where those go rather then straight down the line.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Hacking the system is what it’s all about!

[@sharpmountaingames9303]

Great video, great way to handle this with new players. My option has always been to start at level 3.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

It’s fun starting them at level 1!

[@sharpmountaingames9303]

@@DMTalesTTRPG True, I just survived a DCC game as a wizard with 4 HP. Stayed in the back a lot. Hey Mr. Fighter, why don't you go ahead of me?

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

As it should be!!

[@midnightgreen8319]

Your homebrew rules are great, and you don't have to defend them. I know that people like to nit pick, but it's your table and if your group had fun, you are 100% doing it right! Basic Fantasy RPG adventures are really good. Every GM should get a copy of Morgansfort.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

I think most of the complainers were arguing about “fairness.” The encounter wasn’t supposed to be fair. It was supposed to be over the top to demonstrate from the jump that this world won’t care about “fair.” None of what happened was in story and folks learned right off the bat that they will need to use their brains and wits to survive. BTW, none of these players has had a character die in over a year and a half. Death has been on the table SEVERAL times, but the dice have favored them. And they have avoided combat often by evading, leaving food, or negotiating.

[@midnightgreen8319]

@@DMTalesTTRPG This is the way!

[@layedout778]

I run/GM a similar game, Labyrinth Lord (B/X 1E DnD Molvoy Clone). Lost of death first 2 levels :) I give Mx HP on 1st level and Changed THIEF ABILITY System--everything else, just the way the system is :) So cool hearing this generation playing an OSR game :) I SMASHED the LIKE Button :)

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Well, I cut my teeth on Moldvay-Cook, and there isn’t anyone in the party under 38 at present. So we are not “this generation.”

[@layedout778]

@@DMTalesTTRPG I Know what ya mean--I'm old, but much happier with OUR version of the game :)

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

I can understand that. I mean preference is just preference, and we tend to go with what we’ve always known. I also run a 5e table and I do enjoy the game. Combat is more cinematic, I do think there’s too many casting classes, but otherwise it’s still D&D. I prefer the simpler mechanics of old school versions, but 5e is fine and we have fun playing.

[@zenovkayos5811]

That sounds so awesome. Did you try shadowdark yet? Would love to hear your analysis / comparison between basic fantasy and shadowdark rpg

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

My only Live Stream actual play used Shadowdark! The stream had a ton of glitches, so it wasn’t great, but I did a reflection video on the session. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2q2poGQicd7i7M I’m waiting to get my physical copy to do a review.

[@retrodmray]

Another good one! Thnx! BFRPG is such a cool OSR system! 👊

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

This is what I’m running at present. I have a 5e table and a Basic Fantasy Table. Though I’m probably going to be incorporating some of the classes and races from OSE into it at some point.

[@retrodmray]

@@DMTalesTTRPG Cool! Have you seen all the supplements for BFRPG that they have on their website? A lot of those 5E races and/or classes are kinda there. Some anyway, but in BFRPG style. 👊

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

I have. The Bisren are kinda fun. I tend to like the way races are handled in OSE a tad more, but the systems are so close I could use material from either game at either table!

[@joel3921]

Recently received the softcover from AMZ. Planning to use it as a supplement to OSR game Deathbringer.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

You really can’t beat the price.

[@SovereignVis]

Yeah, I don't think there will ever be a perfect system that will fit the play styles of every group. You always have to homebrew things a little bit. 😅

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

It’s the heartbeat Of the hobby!

[@SovereignVis]

@@DMTalesTTRPG For 5e I would say it is an absolute requirement that it be homebrewed, because most of the new things they have changed/added just suck. 😒

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Eh. I certainly have my critiques of 5e, but it’s a fine system even if it’s not my favorite. I’m not really into edition bashing.

[@ChuckBarchuk]

Great stuff. I like BFRPG but I'm not a huge fan of individual initiative. Unless you roll for each individual monster there will almost always be characters going before the monsters. Maybe that's a good thing for the characters but I found it to be uneven. So I've gone back to group initiative.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Makes sense, on a VTT rolling initiative for each adversary is pretty easy to do, so I do that. I think if I were playing on a physical table I’d go with the way OSE takes up Moldvay-Cook.

[@fchrisb804]

There are optional rules with Basic Fantasy for Daggers and Shortswords to use your Dex to hit and damage.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

The supplements are so fun.

[@tj1993rx7]

Everyone has a play style they enjoy…I used to enjoy 1e, 2e, BUT you hit the nail on the head early when you said, people in 5e have plenty of option, but not so in OSRIC style games. I don’t find find it fun as a fighter for 5 levels that in combat my option is to swing my sword ONCE and call that fun anymore.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Perfectly valid opinions, thanks for commenting! Old school style used to give those extra options through magic items, which is kinda why I wonder what the point of magic items is in 5e.

[@OldManXanditz]

Wait... but you put two bugbears against a 1st lv party... It's deadly on almost systems... I hope the new guy didn't get too much frustrated with it and drop entirely playing! XD

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

They were actually owl bears, and the combat didn’t count. This was to teach them the foundry interface, the general mechanics, and to learn that you don’t just march up and try to kill everything. It worked perfectly, no one has actually died.

[@Lightmane]

2:25 I've only played 1st and 2nd edition. What 'options' are available to you in 5e that aren't available to you in 1st and 2nd? I'm pretty sure I'm not limited in my options, since D&D is a roleplaying game, so I'm confused by what you mean here. I like your channel name though : ) Ok, so I listened to the rest of your video. I didn't hear anything that you said that couldn't be done in any other edition, so I'm still confused. I realize I should say 1 more thing. I'm assuming you're referring to rules that are in 5e, but not in 1st or 2nd, so I'm curious what those rules are.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Well, first, I should point out that they were fighting owl-bears… my brain hiccuped that day for some reason. And I was recounting my Basic Fantasy Table’s introduction to combat, so it’s more akin to an OD&D, Moldvay/Cook, and AD&D mashup than 5e, so it’s no wonder you found it familiar. As for other options. In 5e first level clerics get spells, and can choose a cantrip that does damage. A rogue could wait until an ally was in melee and then get extra damage for a sneak attack, or hide and get it the next turn (it’s like back stab on steroids). More classes get spells so folks could have stayed back and rained arcane fire on the things. And 1st level hp tend to be a tad higher so 1 shot kills of party members would have been less likely. And if a Paladin had been playing, a divine smite would have done some damage. And then you have bonus actions, which a number of cantrips are, which would have essentially allowed two spells to be fired off in a turn (though a save against a cantrip yields no damage). When characters hit third level in 5e a lot of new abilities are unlocked, but even at first level the power difference is noticeable between a 5e character and their old school counterparts. I find 5e quite run to run, but a GM has to work a LOT harder to make things feel dangerous.

[@Lightmane]

@@DMTalesTTRPG asked and answered, so thank you for that. I know that 5e was designed for kids, by making the characters more powerful and much easier to go up levels, which is quite sad, since the point of playing D&D was that it was hard to succeed, which is what made the game great and why it became so popular. I know that 5e streamlined some rules, as my brothers gf has only played 5e and has explained a little of it to me, but the experience point table (not tables) made me close the book, and I know the characters are more powerful than 1st and 2nd edition, though at least the rules are better than 3 & 3.5, so there's that. You can't argue with success though. 5e has been a huge hit; so much so that now they're bringing out 6e, and of course everyone will go buy it. So glad I never bought any D&D products after 2e. I much prefer the game the way it was, along with my own house rules, but sadly I have no group to play with now, which sucks. Anyway, thanks for that thorough explanation. Sorry for my long winded response, but I couldn't help it. I hate how corporations ruin stuff.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

“Designed for kids” is a rather unfair description. And bit demeaning to be honest. My 5 table includes a programmer, a high level tech specialist, two college professors, one scientist, and three pastors. We have fun, that’s the point. I think I enjoy older styles of play a bit more, but 5e is enjoyable for me. You are happy with 2e and that’s perfectly fine, it’s not your cup of tea.

[@Lightmane]

@@DMTalesTTRPG They absolutely designed it for kids. Easy to go up levels and death rarely happens. That doesn't mean that adults don't enjoy it, for my brothers gf has only played 5e and loves it, but they clearly made the game easier to play and made the characters more powerful, which is what you do to attract kids. You can deny it all you want, but everybody knows why they made 5th edition. Pathfinder was kicking their ass with what they had done to the game with 4th edition, so good for them for making their game better. Smart move, but when they said they 'went back to their roots', that was hilarious. That experience table is a total joke. A 5th level 5e party would destroy a 5th level 1e or 2e party. That fact says it all.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Yah, it’s more cinematic. “Total joke,” it is not. Just say, “I don’t like it.” That’s fine, but that’s pretty much all it is. No company “ruined the game.” You just don’t care for the changes in play style and mechanics. It’s just preference, the end.

[@josefernandobellavista4445]

Penalties at old school games are fatal. I think I would go: 3d6 reroll 1&2, put where you want. Full hp until 3rd level. I like to play heroes and have longer narratives with my players. Still dangerous not so lethal.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Cool. I ran mostly RAW-just full HP at level 1 and two abilities can be swapped. Almost 2 years and no one has died yet (I do use -10 hp though).

[@SebastienlovesCookieswirlc]

Bugbears? Biting? Attacking with a bite? 5 HD you did not use the OwlBear?

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Mis-spoke. Claws.

[@jeffallen559]

I’m not sure what you were trying to show them. Yeah if you throw higher end monsters at a 1st level group they are probably going to die. Not a big shocker.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That you can run, throw decoys, and even negotiate with intelligent creatures. These were folks who grew up playing video games and a “see monster, kill monster” mentality. And it worked. They’ve avoided a lot of fights that would have ended them, and set up tactics to win tough battles. The dice have been with them, but they’ve avoided a lot of errors that would have led to an auto-TPK.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

Lol, I like to let my players roll the scores (4 dies - the lesser one) and put in the attributes they want. I also use the rule of Max hit points in the first level.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

In other systems that’s what I tend to do. For BFRPG I tend to go RAW and then let players swap a score if they want. Why? I just felt right.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@DMTalesTTRPG 😂 you are cruel.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

HEY! They get to swap one! I seriously love having a cleric with a negative modifier to charisma, and a penchant for preaching, in the party.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@DMTalesTTRPG I guess I'm too kind of a gm every roll that changes the character permanently I give an extra dice, for example from the second level I let they roll two hit dices and keep the best result. It tends to make the characters more heroics but the game is deadly either way.

[@Diabolik771]

A brown bear is far more tougher than a bugbear (5 HD as compared to 3+1 HD). Bugbears only get 1 attack as well be it with weapon or without. Bears get 3

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Huh, I watched that video a dozen times before publishing it and never once noticed that I said “Bugbear” instead of “Owlbear.” First, good catch. Second, that’s embarrassing. Third, I ALWAYS flip those words for some reason, and it’s a habit I can’t seem to break!

[@jamessatter7418]

Two owlbears are too tough for first level.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Yes, that was pretty much the point.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

This, they have learned. Now that they are leveled up again I may reintroduce one.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

But that got them out of the video game, “run up and bash it” mentality.

[@deathbare5306]

If you stick to it, Just remember that old school games aren’t about combat, it’s more about exploration and survival. If you play it like 5e with 5+ fights in a day with experience pools challenge ratings, I think you will get frustrated. Happy gaming!

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Oh I grew up with BX, I know. This campaign has been going for almost two years at this point!

[@OldPaw]

Bugbear? They should have used their feet.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

I had a brain glitch - OWLbear. And, yes. That was to teach them that running can be a good option.

[@boris2342]

played a game of D+D we were in a cave and the thief (the DM's Wife) climbed up a ledge with a rope and hook the dm asked her do you leave the rope hanging or pull it up again? she pulls it up. got attacked by spiders paralyzed and killed. Of course none of us could climb up to save her and without the rope can't reach the exit. DM days well there is no food or water in cave so you all wonder aimlessly till you starve to death. My fighter did not even get 1 attack in the whole module. I Never went back

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That’s a shame. Very bad GMing, actually.

[@dragonchr15]

This was a level 1 party???? Sounds too challenging for them.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That was the point. I wanted them to understand that, “See monster, kill monster” was not strategy that would lead to success. Nothing in this impacted their characters, everything got reset, but the players learned and have pulled some really interesting maneuvers to either avoid or end combat they didn’t want.

[@TravisWilliams_]

You kinda set yourself up for a TPK and party failure pitting 1st level characters vs 2, 5HD OWLBEARS.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

That was the point I was trying to convey! And it was learned well, the party has role played out of several encounters that could have wrecked them.

[@TravisWilliams_]

@@DMTalesTTRPG putting a group in an encounter with zero chance of success doesn’t teach them anything though. That’s my point.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

The players learned, it’s helped them a great deal. I got to emphasize distance attacks, looking for choke points, and role playing out of combat outside the actual game. And these lessons have carried over to the actual games, and as new players have stepped in they’ve passed those lessons on. So, I disagree with your point.

[@TravisWilliams_]

@@DMTalesTTRPG we will agree to disagree. Nothing is learned from anything with a 100% chance of failure other than why bother. A difficult situation that can have success with good strategy and decision making is a different story.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

It was a demo which had zero consequences, and the players told me they had fun and learned lessons which they applied when the encountered mattered to their characters. So I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with. Right now I feels like you’re telling me they didn’t learn anything, I’m pointing out what they learned and that they demonstrated what they learned in the sessons, and you’re saying, “That can be.” You don’t like how I did it, that’s fine. Just don’t say it didn’t accomplish what I wanted to accomplish, because it did do that and it’s had a positive impact on the game.

[@truant2827]

A little tip for you. If you have a DM shield and you are about to kill a first time player on the first round, I re-roll for those. I don't believe in easy mode, but I feel the job as a DM for first time players is lure them into playing/continuing to play. Maybe almost kill the user, give they player the feeling that they are on the verge of death. Through luck and coordinating with the party, they are just able to escape. After that session, turn off that easy mode. They'll come back the next session.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Yah this was just a demo combat. The guy who died was hooked immediately, though.

[@m.a.packer5450]

This is why I don't like HD: too little HP early game, too much later game. GURPS and Basic Roleplaying work best

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

I’ve seen a number of games which curtail how HP grow over the game, though you can start out with quite a bit (Dungeon World, LowLife 2090, and Low Fantasy Gaming come to mind). It was new to me but I do like how it works out. I kinda like BFRPG’s, and by extension other old school games, HP curve. Characters feel they can take on more dangerous creatures as they progress. And they don’t match up because they have bloated HP, monster HD is just a nice correlation with player level. I’m interested, since I’ve never played either game, how do GURPs and Basic Roleplaying handle starting HP and HP progression?

[@donovanpeterson837]

If I’m remembering correctly, in GURPS hit points stay the same throughout character progression. Skill and equipment improve and armor offers damage resistance. Depending on how many optional rules you use, combat can get really really simulation, but in general, it feels like a mid-level DnD character to me.

[@MoragTong_]

5E players learn how to read thier character sheet ...not how to be a good player. It's obvious your players had ZERO experience with tactics or any sort of strategy. 5E is a game of rolling dice...and then asking "How good did I win?".

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Meh. That’s a common take which isn’t really true-it depends on the table, and even at the table there’s variation. None of the people in this example had played 5e, though. Well, one had since I played a one shot earlier that year, but he’d played AD&D back in the day. It was more the video game effect people used to just wading through enemies on the way to a goal. Heck, when I picked up Baldur’s Gate I had to re-learn to not not do this.