Basic Game Literacy - Why It's Hard to Learn How to Play - Extra Credits

Even if we reduce game literacy to just "being able to play," the number of genres and platforms make it surprisingly difficult for even experienced players to claim well-rounded literacy. But the creative rewards for a game literate community could be immense.
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[@extrahistory]

Are we missing out on the creative rewards of a game literate community? How do we even get there? PLUS! Vote for Extra Credits in the Shorty Awards up to 3 times per day: shortyawards.com/9th/extracreditz

[@keaton5101]

hey dudes you should talk about games that are supposed to be played with as little information as possible for the most effect, like how people were like "go play undertale before watching this"

[@Chexmaster]

Extra Credits eu4 is the black hole of undeestanding. I have over 1500 hours and have done most of the hardest achievements but still can't understand many parts because its a ever evolving game. these still expanding .

[@vladimir520]

Hi Creditz! :D

[@darkerSolstice]

Or The Witness. Or The Beginner's Guide. And I'll be honest - I've watched LPs for both those games because my rl schedule doesn't give me time to play, but I can listen to someone playing The Witness while I'm at work and still get the emotional catharsis from the experience.

[@ChristopherRoss.]

+A.A A You mean like semiotics, or just like "Don't use swastikas because reasons."

[@Suppenfischeintopf]

It's time for "Games your parents might not have tried".

[@DuranmanX]

Ocarina of Time, Super Mario Bros 3, and Half Life 2

[@warriorfire8103]

Lovers in a Dangerous Spacetime

[@kimarous]

There's a reason they don't try certain games: they don't have the reflexes for it anymore. They stick to puzzle games, slow paced and more cerebral than kinetic. I wouldn't dare hand them a controller to play something like Shadow of Mordor or Mortal Kombat because it's obvious they wouldn't be able to keep up. Heck, I'm hesitant to introduce them to the newest King's Quest game because, despite playing the original Sierra series back in the day and loving it, they would get so frustrated by the handful of quick-time events - that's how bad their reflexes have gotten. That's why I find the whole notion of "universal games literacy" a nonsensical and fruitless endeavour. Some people don't have the reflexes to complete faster-paced games, while people who find the thrill from this faster pace would be bored to tears if this was stripped away to make it "universal."

[@andy4an]

and now I feel old. thanks Suppenfischeintopf

[@Nintendotron64]

There still has to be an entry point, however. Even off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single game that would be ideal to show someone who's never played a game in his life or is even just getting started. That's a problem. Maybe we need to take a different approach and create "beginner" and "pro" versions of popular franchises. I'm sure more people would be less afraid of getting into games if there were things like "Mario For Dummies"; while leaving the original version available for more experienced players. Even just being able to freely adjust the difficulty would make games a much more accessible medium.

[@FrostSylph]

I just realized, all those "three hours later" things from spongebob, while providing a bit of comedy, also likely help younger audiences make the connections between cuts which increases their literacy of television and film.

[@scoutgaming737]

Yea. You are right

[@YaakovEzraAmiChi]

Haha that's exactly what I thought of

[@Minihood31770]

My cousin is currently 9 years old, and I recently got her playing some games. It started when she was watching me play a game(I think it was Ratchet and Clank PS4), and she asked if I had any games she could play. My first instinct was to give her Ratchet and Clank 2. It's one of my favourite games, and much easier than the other games in the series, it's the first game I ever beat, and I was around her age when I first played it. I thought she would have no trouble. I vastly underestimated how hard that game is for a new player who doesn't inherently understand basic gaming concepts, such as turning the camera with one stick, while simultaneously moving the character with another. So I took a step back, thought harder (and looked at the games I already own) and offered her Fez on my PS4. The basic platforming is simple enough. The way of thinking in 3D space is simplified in a way. Instead of 360 degrees to consider, you only have four. The slower pace of the puzzles is also a lot more friendly to learning controls than a fast paced action game. She took to Gomez' cute derpy design instantly. She is working through the levels when she comes over, and enjoying herself, but she struggles with the time sensitive jumps. The kind where the platforms switch from being horizontal to vertical in an alternating staircase, and you have to jump so they switch while you are in mid air. This is because she physically struggles to push all of the buttons quick enough, because they are so far apart for her. I then realised how big the PS4 controller is for her. I never really noticed how much bigger the new controller is, because my hands are also bigger than when I played the older consoles, so the size feels the same relative to my hands. So I had another think, had a look at the older consoles I have, and I offered her my old PSP, which still works, although the discs are a little temperamental. And the game I presented was LocoRoco. I nailed it with this one. The bright colours and clean, cheerful style really sold her on the cute little blobs. The controls are very simple, tilt left/right with L/R, jump with L+R, split/combine with O. More importantly, the controls are small, the PSP is just the right size for her. The challenge while still present slowly builds up, giving her time to get to grips with the controls. I let her take my PSP home with her (along with the charger) and while her mum wasn't very happy, I was delighted to find she'd finished the game in under a month! So after that was LocoRoco 2, I gave it to her just before she went back to school, I haven't seen her since, as I no longer live nearby, but I can't wait to see how far she's got, and what she wants next. I'm thinking a lego star wars game, the 3D platforming and simple combat should be a good introduction to 3D action games. She's also watching the films for the first time with me, so it will have to wait till we've watched them all to avoid spoilers! One day I will get her to play a Ratchet and Clank game, as it's what I grew up with, and I want her to feel the same wonder of exploring alien worlds, and the same cathartic fun of blowing up baddies or turning them into sheep! But first I need to give her the tools to properly enjoy the game. Sorry for the wall of text. I just felt like sharing my journey of teaching my cousin gaming literacy, and learning what it is myself :)

[@ketrub]

Minihood31770 Let her play PC version of Rayman 2/3. They start really easy and slowly get harder with each level - just be warned about Rayman 2's escape levels in the second half - these were my first games and I still remember the struggle to make my first jump in Rayman 2. I was 6 back then :v

[@extrahistory]

Thanks for sharing this super interesting perspective! I relate to this so much, as I've tried to introduce various games to smaller children in my family, and more often than not I realize that what seems obvious to me is not at all obvious to them, and through no fault of their own--it's just a matter of life experience and even different home environments. I know kids who have been heavily criticized for "not getting it" when they pick up a game, and in turn it makes them much more cautious and afraid to experiment/explore the mechanics of any new game they try. Thank you for being so patient with your cousin and even personally curating new games for her based on her past experiences! The part you mentioned about the controller size being a limiting factor is especially intriguing, and as other people have pointed out, physically simplified hardware seems to play a big role in reducing the learning curve for newer gamers. There's also a lot to be said for designing for accessibility, along those lines. --Belinda

[@alaharon1233]

Minihood31770 assuming the puzzles aren't too hard for her, I'd also recommend portal as a game that'll ease her into twin stick and time sensitive puzzles. It starts out giving you all the time in the world and then once you've mastered the movement it introduces some small time sensitive puzzles. This and Halo 4 were my first shooters with a modern controller

[@andhelms663]

Minihood31770 lego games are what got me started so i would definetly recommend those

[@AlteredNova04]

I can relate to this issue. My very young sister used to always want to play video games with me and my friends, so we would start up four player split-screen games like halo multiplayer and give her a controller. It took her three years to finally master moving and looking at the same time with two analog sticks. (she's almost as good as me now though!) My best friend also had that issue with his son not being able to physically handle a normal xbox 360 controller. He ended up buying him a cute little half-sized aftermarket controller, it worked like a charm!

[@Tchuk3000]

I recently had a really interesting experience with basic games literacy. My partner is not a gamer. She's often been repelled by the stereotype of 'Dudebros' and assumed most were just boy-ish shooters or sports (Which she was not into). So when we started seeing each other I showed her what kind of friendly and artistic games were out there. I wanted to show her something that didn't require an in-depth control system like a joypad or a keyboard & mouse. So I bought Kirby and the Rainbow Paintbrush, something with a stylus system, something we all know how to use if we're fundamentally literate. And she loved it! She quickly learned how to move the character, what the objectives were. But soon she started proceeding further into the game and she said something I've never, ever considered with games. She said: 'I'm getting further into the game, but it's just getting harder. Why am I being punished for playing the game?' This was a level of 'basic gaming literacy' I had never really even thought about, and it really made me question, even the most basic fundamentals of game literacy from my own experiences.

[@snaiper195]

I am a gamer and i dont even know how to use a controler

[@Genesis23OPB]

​@@snaiper195 its impossible to use a controller wrong

[@GlitchCrunch]

This is why the Wii was so popular. It creates an easy entry for non-gamers to understand the basics of gaming and what you need to do in games. Especially Wii sports where you can easily understand "Swing the wiimote to swing the tennis racket" and it needs very little explanation.

[@InazumaDash]

And people already own a TV remote so holding it isn't too weird. It's a little more familiar.

[@koen8993]

It did have the problem that it simply didn't lend itself to transitioning towards any more complex or interesting experiences for these beginners. The Wii quickly became a dust catcher to most as the novelty wore off. How many actually became hardcore gamers afterwards? Though it did reach many demographics that would have otherwise never picked up a controler.

[@Ssure2]

Chris Brinkley Yeah, but the motions one would make were quite logical to what you would see on the tv. Wii Sports is an easy game to get into because you already know those sports a little and just need to use the right motions. It is a lot more beginner friendly than with buttons that don't say anything to newer players...

[@BFedie518]

+koen8993 Many people did actually, and mobile/casual games are doing something similar. True, most didn't "convert" to core games, but I know at least a few who did. Some because of games like SSBB and others because they picked up an xbox or ps3 for the motion controls and then decided to try one of the non motion-controlled ones.

[@narcozero8410]

Well i did. I started with the wii. Playing zelda and mario, and now i have my own gaming pc, with dozens of games on my steam account, and i know how to install a mod. If you mean harcore in a sens that "have finished all the dark souls and spent three years on eve online." I guess i'm not hardcore. But starting with the wii sure led me to less casual experiences afterwards.

[@AnthanKrufix]

I remember introducing my Sister, who's never really played games but VERY interested in RPGs and Elves and stuff like that, to Baulder's Gate; Dark Alliance II. She got the hang of the basics pretty fast. She could aim spells well and hit Kobolds with her sword and hold her own... but then came a point where she hadn't come across... talking to an NPC! Not like choosing the correct dialog option or anything like that but physically positioning her character in front of the dude and pressing the action button. Because it was her character's (Ysuran) personal quest I couldn't do it for her. And she spent literally 10 minutes walking around in circles trying to position herself infront of the guy without overshooting or facing the wrong way. While I gormlessly jumped up and down on the tables waiting.... When she finally managed it, the NPC she needed to speak with, Omduil's opening line became a running joke in the whole house "Oh! I did not see you come in!" We had to stop the session playing because nether of us could actually hold the controller straight from laughing too hard.

[@MercuryA2000]

This video reminded me about another one by this guy Razbuten. He made a video called 'What Games Are Like For Someone Who Doesn't Play Games' In it, he just put his wife down in front of a bunch of games and just... watched. She was so lost sometimes because she just never learned basic game literacy. Its well written and it goes more in depth into how something as simple as jumping through hollow knight takes effort for someone who didn't grow up on mario and metroid. He also has a couple follow ups, one where he gives her BOTW and another where they start playing Minecraft. Really interesting and worth a watch I think.

[@coyraig8332]

He turned that into an entire series, with a role reversal for an april fools special

[@raven75257]

@@coyraig8332 Role reversal? Could you tell me what was the name of that video?

[@Intrafacial86]

One HUGE disadvantage of games compared to other mediums is that they quickly become inaccessible after an amount of time due to the introduction of new technology and the decay of old technology. For comparison, imagine if drama and english courses of the future suddenly lost access to Shakespeare's and Homer's works. Imagine if music courses of the future suddenly lost access to Beethoven and Bach.

[@iCarus_A]

Not necessarily true. We lost access to millions of books as society moved on, either due to decay of storage medium or physical destruction. Only the classics that are truly moving/educational are copied and passed on for generation after generation. Games are sort of similar where many classics are accessible through dedicated community-made emulators or developer remasters. Halo CE got a remaster on PC just recently, for example, and so did DOOM 64, etc. Exceptions (lost classics or passed-down meh books/games) exist in both worlds.

[@xXxSpeshulKxXx]

These are the kinds of subjects that make working for GameStop difficult. Often times I have parents with young children asking me "What games on the Xbox One are easy for little kids to play?" They expect a simple answer because they're familiar with older mediums like books or film, which have fairly clean cut boundaries for literacy. These adults are often just asking for a title so they can get on with their busy day, so I cannot start a philosophical discussion about the industry's struggle to define universal game literacy. Usually I wind up recommending a Nintendo system or motivating the child to keep on trying.

[@citizenofzorcon7729]

And then they get bashed by the "hardcore" crowd because there all deluded into thinking NIntendo is just a "kiddy company" and there somehow not " a real gamer" for getting a Nintendo system.

[@maxybaer123]

Nintendo's great i dont see why they have such a stigma but my recommendation to you is never recommend an online multiplayer game as a starter it will probably turn them off gaming

[@citizenofzorcon7729]

maxybaer123 Because the "hardcore" people think the only thing that matters is "moer power" and completely fail to realize that Nintendo is the only big company trying new things with their games.

[@robonerd125]

Their also basically the only company that cares about bugfixing their games before release (with a few exceptions and usually those exceptions are third party devs)

[@andresarancio6696]

Never understood that hate towards Nintendo. Despite some shitty business practises, they are a really good game company. Games-wise Nintendo produces really good and fun experiences and they are smart enough to make them enjoyable to all audiences (they do understand that an E and E+10 game doesn't mean "kids game" but "game for everyone"). Console-wise they don't waste their stuff in the constantly escalating arms race Sony and Microsoft (Microsoft had the Xbox right?) have, instead they focus on truly interesting and creative ideas that can actually hit the market as something cool instead of just being a more powerful console. My only problem with them is their "we know how to make games and you don't shut up" community management policies, that thankfully is being less and less prevalent through the years. So, yeah, dunno why people shit on Nintendo so much.

[@KOrbiid]

I agree so much, since I got my Dad Portal 1 for christmas this year, after he mocked me so many times about how modern games are bad and not creative etc... I just have to say, watching my parents play Portal: It was a Mess. My father is a really good piano player, but struggled to use wsad with more than one finger. Both took a really long time to adjust to the 3D world. I had to tell them so many times: "you have to look in front" when they stared right at the ceiling and thought they are looking forward. And dont get me started on doors: They were constantly going through the door way out of center and got stuck. It took me so long to realize, that they thought the portalgun is the middle of your chracter. Thats why the were always ofset to the right...It was the most frustrating experience I ever had with video games.

[@warriorfire8103]

It's crazy how we can understand things on a deep level to such a degree that it just seems like common sense. I constantly remind my IT coworkers when they get frustrated by clients behind the door. I've seen it in boxing, wrestling and of course as shown in your own story, games.

[@reNINTENDO]

So you're dad mocked modern games (implying he, at least at some point, played enough games to form a strong opinion of them) while clearly never playing a single one? That's frustrating in its own right. I hope they ended up liking Portal in the long run. Not gonna lie: them thinking the gun was the middle of the character and not the camera legitimately pisses me off. I commend your patience with them.

[@turinlowe]

Why? If you are of a certain age group the idea of the gun being the middle is normal. Wolfenstein, Doom, Duke Nukem 3d, and Quake all had the gun in the middle and was the point of reference that the player used to know the direction that they were facing. It would be the same as a person who had only played Tecmo Bowl a little bit and then throwing the newest Madden at them. Hell I play games and have had later games in series lose me when i skip a few games and come back in, because what was hype feature of the last games are now just fundamental knowledge that is used to build the newest hype feature.

[@maxybaer123]

+reNINTENDO you do realize that before modern games there was a time where there were only 2d games right even doom wasn't full 3d it just looked that way

[@KOrbiid]

Yes, they never played modern games. They played these TextAdventures like colossal cave for example. Made really really big drawings of the maps. And this is pretty much the reason for calling modern games uncreative , because you dont have to use your imagination and dont have to think as much...I found this always pretty dumb, thats why I finally decided to introduce them to the modern gaming world. And @turinlowe: I know and I ofc tried to support them and help them gave them tips etc. But nonetheless it was frustrating to watch, because it feels so natural to me. I was not only frustrated by them, but also by myself. Because I tried to explain it to them( to center themselves before going through a door over and over again) and they still werent able to until I found out the reason in pretty much the last level. I felt a bit dumb as well, that I didnt got that this was the problem...So this video really sums it up for me: You dont understand the problems people have, if you grew up with video games.

[@SharkByteOfficial]

Got my mom playing Plants vs Zombies GW... I think she's ready for Battlefield >:D

[@daneeko]

my mom plays airxonix and chroma crash does that count??

[@whydoesmeexiss2883]

Just absolutely no sharkbyte

[@Zyrdalf]

My mom just learned what WASD is...

[@whydoesmeexiss2883]

Gerdy the grey oof

[@shinethief3785]

The mother plays a lot of mobile candy crush games. I think I might recommend something similar but a little different.

[@BigTuk]

I think the problem is, that Gaming is being taken as whole. Reading a novel and understanding it is not the same as reading a text books. Both are 'Books' Both encompass the whole, knowing what words and letters mean, but both also present and apply these in different ways.. I think the problem with games is that it is a medium that is of itself a mishmash of the discipline and vocabularies of other mediums as well as new words. Each genre of game has it's own language, it's own expectancies, which is why a madden player would be flummoxed by X-COm and a Starcraft Vet would be baffled by Europa Universalis. There can't really exist a common language when what anything means can be radically different in another game. Look at Undertale and Papers, please!. The first game subverts every known RPG trope and the second basically has ytou doing something you've never really done before.

[@neeneko]

I think you need to think more basic than that. Games have not really even reached the 'books' level of common literacy. Pick up a fiction novel, a textbook, a biography, etc, and there is a lot of common knowledge that goes into things like structure and tone. Take, for instance, one flips to the front for a table of contents, or the back for an index. You know where the 'about the author' and copyright information probably are, and how chapter organization works. Beyond that, basic metaphores that any author might use in order to establish a report with the reader will be pulled from the author's target culture, potentially being shared between all types of writing.

[@maxybaer123]

i think that games literacy has more to do with how long it takes you to pick up a game and learn with as little instruction as possible than it does with learning one particular game

[@TonyTheTGR]

Yes. Well, you'll probably know where the title screen and options are, what you can do with the settings (now conveniently and almost universally grouped into "Settings, Audio, Video, and Help/How To Play" subsections); and that the credits either appear in the opening cutscene in narrative-heavy games, and at the end of the game. We've also discussed the "Stage 3" or "Disc 1 Final Dungeon" syndrome - that first part that separates the casual audience from the deeper one, and where the game begins to challenge the player. Which can be applied to other mediums too! Usually the third track of an album is it's definitive selling point, and the third episode of a TV series is where they cut the introductory bullshit and get on with the action/story. The difference with games is in their execution, and we're even at a point where control schemes are very refined. People know in 3D action games to move with the left stick, and turn/control the camera with the right stick, and most actions are set to the triggers/bumpers now. People know in fighting games that blocking is either a committed button, or more commonly now, simply holding away from the opponent (or occasionally keeping the movement stick neutral), and that the D-Pad is FAR better for 2D fighting games specifically BECAUSE the input is digital for special moves/motions that use them.

[@maxybaer123]

i agree but my point had more to do with if you know how a game functions thats not very helpful to playing a new one but if you know how games function than you typically can just pick one up and play with little to no instruction.

[@BigTuk]

Sure. If you're picking up one written within your cultural norms. This is not cross cultural though,. There is a reason Indian and polynesian films seem so crazy to westerners. Because westerners are being exposed to a narrative and visual style they have no clue about. To someone within the culture. Also while you are right that games have not reached the level of books, I consider that a strong plus. Games have not become so rote and formulaic as books.

[@joshuaevans6295]

I would say that starting DF is more like picking up a book, staring in shock and horror at the title page, and then having the book eat your face.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

It's more like a book that someone recommended, but you open it up and it's in ancient Babylonian. Then it climbs up your face and sets your hair on fire.

[@Lulink013]

It's a free game

[@hi-i-am-atan]

You want to finish that statement there, or was that all you had to add?

[@kurtisharen]

If you were to ask for a snack and receive a pile of rotting, putrid, molding food as a result, you would have a right to complain, correct? Regardless of if it's free or not, that does not make it criticism-proof. If I were to release a game for free, and receive even negative feedback on something that could be improved, or advice on how to fix something that needed fixed, or even just a number of people telling me that an aspect of my game is not fun, I would appreciate that. Releasing a free game means that the developer is not doing it out of profit, but out of sheer love for the medium, and wanting to contribute to that end. Constructive criticism helps the developer to grow, and to create better projects in the future after learning what ideas work and what don't, what concepts should be expanded upon and which should be looked back on and either altered or removed entirely. To that end, people complaining about something that's free should be encouraged, as long as there's something constructive added to that complaint, just like criticism for every other product. People complaining that Dwarf Fortress is extremely unintuitive in it's interface, to the point of nearly being hostile to new players is a valid complaint that can help the developer learn how to improve the game. Also, regardless of my initial analogy, don't assume that I'm calling Dwarf Fortress crap. I have not played the game myself, and so I'm not forming an opinion of the game until I ever do. Personally, I find the ASCII graphics confusing and difficult to tell what things are at initial glance, so I haven't gotten around to playing it. The analogy was to just get my point across.

[@Daonitre]

@Kurtis Haren: The coding that Dwarf Fortress has can't handle a full overhaul of the UI. The genius isn't in the UI but in the capability of the randomness, extreme detail attempting to simulate a near-reality, and hilarity.I'll not put anyone down for saying that they want the UI to be better but if that's your only gripe you really need to have a chat with someone who (to refer back to the video) is DF literate. To correct your first sentence: You asked for a snack and received a large catalog of options. You chose to pick the one in ASCII and now you're complaining because you can't understand the flavor. That's not a valid argument.

[@AmyAndTheMarbles]

Usually, when watching a 2 parter, I can instantly watch the next one. Now I have to wait a week because it's not an old episode! My entire world view is falling apart!

[@unvergebeneid]

Welcome to the channel!

[@AmyAndTheMarbles]

Thanks! I've known about the channel for a while, and was even subscribed, but didn't watch regularly until very recently. Can't wait for next week, but I still have a few more old episodes to watch so it's all good.

[@Pingvinicecream]

That's how I watch anime. Complete season or preferably seasons or bust. I hate to be left dying on the cliffhangers on a new episode.

[@LamanKnight]

I subscribed not too long ago, and I think this is the first time I've actually seen a video on the day it came out. This is going to take some getting used to, heh.

[@lucianoimperio7986]

Same

[@epistolariangamer5645]

One problem with this matter that I don't know if you guys will talk about is the fact that a lot of games that try to address this, that try to help bring more people into gaming and teach them basic game literacy, are despised by a lot of the "hardcore gamers", who try to keep this toxic elitism surrounding gaming. I really think that this attitude is another barrier for the expansion of gaming, since there's a lot of negativity towards people who are just beginning to play.

[@BigFearedBalloon]

Maybe instead, tutorials should have an option for Hardcore players. Casual Players or New Players. Basically just have that option for people.

[@InazumaDash]

Tutorials are fine as long as their skippable or put in the game in a way that doesn't drag and talk down too much. So basically not Fi in Skyward sword yelling that you're low on health when you can already hear the annoying beeps constantly. One's enough.

[@raminshah1950]

Epistolarian Gamer This is 150% on point. The gaming community has become toxic since this sort of elitism has distinguished itself - most likely beginning with 'console wars' then branching off to this 'PC Master Race' and 'Nintendo sucks' mindframe. This is why gaming as a whole doesn't grow, because elitism alienates amateurism or inexperience among fellow players.

[@senorsocke6137]

Epistolarian Gamer Especially with games just being innately far more complex nowadays as opposed to the NES, which had only 2 dimensions, and a super simple controller. Gaming wasn't just simpler, either, but niche. It always rubs me the wrong way whenever I hear an oldschool gamer talking about how even just button prompts and basic instructions in the corner of the screen should be done away with. I know you find it annoying, but if the game is actively going out of it's way to make the tutorial both helpful but unobtrusive, then it really is just you nitpicking and acting a bit like an elitist.

[@ltericdavis2237]

+Grace Jung I really don't think that dark souls should be the basis in this situation of increasing accessibility. Dark Souls is frankly a little obtuse, even for somewhat experienced gamers. Of course you might be referring to something specific about its tutorial I am overlooking. I think a good design for tutorials would be a staging area to display the mechanics, and the actual tutorial prompts would only show up if you didn't preform the function within say 5 or 10 seconds. That way, experienced players can go through the tutorial without any annoying prompts, mid levels can figure out the button presses on there own for a few seconds, and the guys that are stuck get the help they need. It still doesn't solve the opposite problem of people intentionally skipping tutorials then complaining they don't know how to play thoug

[@noxiouskarn]

I started my kids on a path to gaming literacy by letting them play minecraft console edition and super mario brothers as well as Jetpack joyride. we slowly progressed until they were begging to play minecraft survival mode. We started with creative mode so they could understand movement and placement without having to pile on all of the crafting recipes. My oldest now 8 is finally ready to make the fray into Pc edition using a mouse and keyboard and all of the full crafting recipes. but sadly I had to curate this learning model as it just doesn't exist in any single game that i would find acceptable to a younger audience.

[@reNINTENDO]

Very reasonable game selection, in my opinion. As someone who started on PC with first person games, I actually think learning with a mouse is a lot easier than a controller. Many take that for granted as the reverse is now more common for people, but in all honesty first person games were not meant to be played with a joystick. That doesn't stop people from getting really good at them, but boy is it harder. And that's coming from someone who has thousands of hours with both control methods. Oh, and I'd recommend teaching them to use ESDF. I recommend that to everyone, but WASD was a byproduct of old keyboard limitations. ESDF is generally more ergonomic depending on hand size, as well as freeing up a few more keys and keeping the hands on the home row (making finding keys easier for home row (aka good) typers).

[@maxybaer123]

my advice for you is let him play strategy games there usually age friendly and while not like most nonstrategy games it can help teach how to learn a game and not just be confused as they are tricky and require you to learn most of it on your own

[@maxybaer123]

+reNINENDO never thought of esdf i actually want to try it as i sometimes have trouble finding keys to bind as i own a mac

[@Roxor128]

+reNINTENDO Holy crap. I never realised that ESDF was such a good fit. You have the finder-bump under your index finger just like when typing. I just went along with WASD because that was the default for everything I had to play with a mouse, starting with Half-Life, I think (I'd previously been keyboard-only while on MS-DOS).

[@robonerd125]

Hey, I mentioned ESDF in an earlier comment, didn't know it was hardware limitations, what were the limitations (just my personaly curiosity)

[@chris2656]

It's weird. it comes so naturally to me but watching someone else struggle... Idk

[@namelessasdf]

its so frustrating :D

[@neeneko]

Well, if you ever want to peek on from the other side, take a look at shakespeare. Works that any average person of the time (and language) would instantly understand not just the language but the whole structure of how speech and stage interacted. So much so that a lot of the intermediate stuff was completely left out because it was obvious to, well, anyone.

[@chris2656]

neeneko I suppose that's true. I mean I (for some reason) mostly understand shakespeare. But you do make a good point.

[@koalateacontent5094]

Yep. I have logged probably about 1800 hours in 1st person shooters (1550+ in two with some very complex movement that requires good timing and understanding to get right half of the time). Then my little cousin plays and struggles to keep his view angle level (IE not at the sky or the ground, wobbling around), let alone move, shoot, and aim at the same time. I understand why he struggles, but it seems so utterly basic to me that it is actually slightly annoying. I can jump over someones head around a corner, 360, and land a shot right in their back, while my cousin can barely shoot a stationary target at 25 feet out (With pretty low sensitivity due to the wobbling aim). It make so much sense, but is so annoying to watch someone learn.

[@KorboQ]

+Brandon Hitchcock 180. If you 360, you're facing the same way. What shooter are you actually talking about? Sounds like Brink or something.

[@horrorkesh]

one of the things you didn't touch on that I think is important for gaming overall is the stigma that games are for kids games are something you should grow out of, we have gone a long way from the gaming crash of the 80"s but there is still something left over from Nintendo being sold in toy stores.

[@horrorkesh]

yes and fuck you

[@Squadwin]

? Are you crazy? What the hell

[@horrorkesh]

rather then move on with your day you have to proceed to insult me and attack my opinion? yes fuck you

[@horrorkesh]

because gaming is just barely starting to get out of the territory for the stigma of gaming as a childs hobby gaming literacy is stunted, my comment was perfectly fitted to the message of this video you just couldn't see it.

[@Squadwin]

This video is about game literacy, not social stigma regarding gaming. Dan has actually made a video adressing just that in the past.

[@duckdictator6531]

I wonder if Dan knows they came out with Europa Universalis 4.... jkjk

[@dai2dai246]

3 years now... still havent gotten 3 mountains though.

[@maxybaer123]

did he say 3?

[@owlblocksdavid4955]

I player eu4 for the 1st time yesterday

[@maxybaer123]

i soo want that game but its 100 usd so im gonna wait for a sale

[@Cretaigne95]

soo what do you think? ( Bohemia or the Ottomans is a great beginner state btw)

[@kooferkoo4969]

"we dont even have a great place to start" (in regards to teaching people how to play games) Poor Masahiro Sakurai (the designer of kirby) seems to be failing to reach everyone with his goals... the kirby series (as stated by said creator in an interview) is created to make video games more approachable... To teach people how to game... Sakurai took to this idea when he noticed how unapproachable and difficult the gaming medium was back in the day (you know the days... when designers made games more difficult to get more playtime) and winded up creating kirby around this philosophy that games need to be approachable... Oh well, great episode E.C. the topic is extremely interesting and I cant wait to hear more!

[@ECL28E]

I feel this may solve itself as the population becomes more and more tech-literate down the line.

[@Yamartim]

ECL28E the tech literacy developing right now is pretty superficial and weak though, sure people know how to unlock a smartphone or use a mouse, but practically none know what is a motherboard or an ip address

[@Drraagh]

ECL28E I agree. Grow up using a computer and you will feel more comfortable using it and have skills to adapt to new changes easier. The biggest stumbling block is the amount of variation on control schemes between systems and even games on the same system. Does X jump or attack, how do you switch weapons, what button is sprint or crouch?

[@unstablepc5913]

Motherboards and IP address aren't super useful unless you want to go deep in the stuff. Its like knowing the metaphor terminology in literature. Not necessary to enjoy the stuff.

[@PipPanoma]

Yamazake Whitesky This video was about BASIC game literacy. I wouldn't consider the things you describe basic tech literacy. It may not be very advanced but it is not basic either. It's somewhere in between. The superficial things you describe are what I would call basic, the bare minimum to use technology.

[@nicfishman5194]

Yamazake Whitesky even beyond that though, people's basic ability to use programs like Word is shockingly low. A lot of the blame for that specifically can be put on Microsoft, but the example holds. And maybe really great UI design will solve all these issues, but to simply assume that seems really optimistic.

[@pedroscoponi4905]

This I want this I want games to be respected worldwide as a medium and an art form same way movies and tv are today, and if I can't hand *mostly anyone* a controller without worrying that they have no idea what to do, that can't really happen I think if we want that kind of respect that we know games deserve, we *need* basic literacy to be as worldwide as possible. Can the good folk of E.C. put together a list of games that are good introductions to the medium? I would love to see that (and maybe share it around!)

[@GreenGorgeousness]

Pedro Scoponi Besides some some specific problems, I agree with you.

[@lukefrance9558]

Pedro Scoponi Minecraft creative mode so they can practice the 3D world and then portal

[@pedroscoponi4905]

Minecraft might actually be a good place to start, it's true o.O

[@awesomefuzz4008]

How about starting with the classics? Pong is probably a bit *too* classic, but what about Mario Bros (the sidescroller)? You get to know the basics on how to operate a controller or keyboard, and how to go about having an objective and figuring out how to get there. Minecraft or Terraria are probably good, though you should consider what you’d like to teach at that point. If you’re trying to teach action-focused gameplay, Terraria is better. Minecraft is better for learning 3D and getting a sense of direction (ever tried to escape a cave system before you set up a system to find your way back to your house?). But overall, remember that older games didn’t have experienced players to rely on, so they might be more welcoming to a new player. However, it’s also possible that their higher overall difficulty may deter new players. Basically, don’t give them Dark Souls as their first game to try. Perhaps use a board game that the new player is already familiar with in a digital format, so that they can learn the controls and such without worrying about mechanics, since they already know those. A Hat in Time is a great game, and I think it could work well to teach 3D platforming and more open games, but it might be a little too challenging. It does have the benefit of low time to respawn though.

[@SkywalkerAni]

I can certainly see the types of genres you play effecting how literate you are. For example, I play a lot of platformers and JRPGs. I can tell you that on platformers, I expect there to be, aside from the directional buttons/analog sticks for moving, there to be at the very least jump and attack buttons (ex: Ratchet's wrench, Jak's punch/spin attack, Mario's fireball, etc.). In JRPGs, I expect a story, towns, stats, and encounters with enemies (either with turnbased or action- I play both Final Fantasy and Tales). Now, place me in front of a first person shooter, I have a general idea of what's going on, but the first person controls I generally find wonky and weird. Give me a western RPG and I don't know if I'm creating my character right or distributing their stats correctly.

[@Azure9577]

Have you ever heard of the trails in the sky games They are the best jrpgs one can experience

[@AlphaOmega115]

The still of a guy hugging the game makes me want an EC game plush now

[@TheKiroshi]

this just happening now?

[@JaesadaSrisuk]

How do reviews fit into game literacy? If you've read dozens of reviews of a video game by intelligent and perceptive critics, can you say that you're at least a LITTLE bit able to be conversant in a game's meaning?

[@MrTrollaid]

I doubt "reviews" would help with that. Reviews are just basic consumer guides made to help you decide whether or not you should buy a game. As such, they often mostly focus on technical aspects, leaving aside most of the narrative for fear of spoiling it. Critiques on the other hand, such as the ones by Errant Signal are more complete discussions, but most of them assume you have already played the game. Anyway, it can give you valuable informations and insight, but I wouldn't say it's comparable to actually playing it.

[@Yamartim]

it really depends though, if you're talking about a review by gamespot for example, that is meant to help the reader to decide if they're going to play the game or not, or if you're talking about an actual critique by someone like errant signal, which presumes the viewer already played the game and thus is meant to be an analytical debate about everything the game has to offer

[@ChristopherRoss.]

In an advanced literacy sense, yeah. But on a basic level, the vocabulary or associated understanding isn't there. For example, if I read a review on a RTS without ever having played a game before, I would have zero frame of reference on what they mean by economy or workers or micro/macro or build order or factions etc.

[@wea1117]

I think that'd be sorta like watching a Movie of a book without being able to read. Sure you can talk about the book fairly well after watching but you're not actually able to read the book still.

[@Askorti]

No, not really. Reviews are aimed at people who are already literate in the medium. Compare it to giving a book synopsis to a person who can barely read letters. Just because they know what the book is about and what it's like, doesn't mean they can read it and enjoy it.

[@MrTaylork1]

My wife never played games growing up and she was playing the uncharted games. I was amazed at how much she struggled at the platforming and wall climbing. I just saw them as tedious sections to create pacing in the story, but they were actually a challenge for her

[@callumrussell]

What I love about this channel is that I don't just watch and go 'huh, that was cool'. I actually end up walking away thinking about the concept and even look more into it. Always very well thought and presented arguments. Keep up the fantastic work!

[@09philj]

Games which are niche are often not those which don't appeal to a lot of people, but those that require a player to be experienced in the genre to have a hope of progressing. This is particularly common in strategy games and RPGs.

[@diegoantoniorosariopalomin4977]

JackIntheBoxGaming fighting games are even more niche (i think those two genres you mentioned are becoming more mainstream ) , but ask players to already know much more concepts

[@danielthundersteel7146]

This reminds me of one of my first gaming experiences when I was a kid. a coworker of my mom gave me an old CD collection. one of the CDs was an Apogee games collection. I was in elementary school. I am not from an english speaking country, and back then english was only taught in secondary school starting class five - so i couldn't understand a single workd in english. I leaned it all by trial and error. it was cumbersome, but it was the only games I had, and it was on the same time quite fascinating. like i would figure it out step by step and every step further was like a small victory. I had to figure out the options in the main menu by trying them out. I couldn't read any of the in-game instructions. I just figured it out over time, by trial and error

[@heatherholden654]

Extra Credits you really inspired me when you first started out making these videos and I've now nearly finished my first year of University studying Games Design. A whole new world has opened up to me and it was watching your videos and seeing that I could analyse games in the same way I loved doing with literature. Thank you all for being amazing and inspiring individuals.

[@bryanmichauxiv]

Hey, Extra Credits just wanted to say love the work your doing. Your videos have always helped pass the time when getting my work done in my free period at school, and my friend and I love the perspective your topics show on video games. It's gotten to the point that we spend a lot more tome discussing games than actually playing them, with our schedules, and we never pass up a time to just sit down dissect a game together. Thank You

[@demomanchaos]

Tetris is probably one of the best starting points for gamers-to-be. Simple mechanics, simple concept, engaging, and the music will never leave your skull even after all your brain matter has decayed away. You can play as long or as briefly as you like, and even fridges these days can run it.

[@DuranmanX]

The Wii tried to help people achieve basic game literacy with easier to understand controls. The result? Casual gamers bought it in droves, hardcore gamers hated it, shovel ware piled up, and no played the hidden gems.

[@carterhickenlooper8784]

Just wondering, what would you consider the hidden gems on the wii? Super Mario Galaxy comes to mind for me.

[@GreenGorgeousness]

Adrian Duran i loved it as a hardcore gamer, and your assessment is spot on.

[@KatherineFtw]

@Carter - Muramasa: The Demon Blade comes to mind instantly, although most "Illiterate" gamers probably couldn't figure out how to slash.....

[@luigifan4585]

Carter Hickenlooper No More Heroes 1 and 2

[@Lulink013]

Hidden gems: from best and/or unknown to average and/or mainstream - Zack & Wiki (FUCKING PLAY IT! IT'S GUUUD!) - Xenoblade (Before Smash 4 dug it out of it's grave) - No more Heroes (Not my cup of tea but others love it sooo...) - Rayman Origins (multi-platform, but still... Really good game.) - Wii Sport Resort (It's a game for casuals... But you'll find some challenge in it I swear!) - Sonic colors (multi-platform, but really strong game for a wii title) - Metroid Prime Trilogy (just because it's 3 fucking games... You can't miss that you know...) Feel free to add your games, but SMG and SMG2? Really?!

[@squidrecluse2336]

I actually just ran into this. I've been making my own card game, and when I explained it to my friends they got it right away because they've played games like Magic before. When I tried to tell my family though it was like teaching them a new language. It's was really interesting.

[@winterion]

Thank you so much for participating in the panel! It's a subject I was really looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on, and I certainly hope it'll push the dialog forward and get more people thinking about it.

[@CommissarMitch]

I am the type of guy who would play strategy all the time. In fact, I almost beat Europa Universalis 4 as the Huron tribe, and it is recorded. Does that mean I can understand "simpler" games? Of course not. Each person, like Dan said, is different. What I find as laughably easy (damn you England) can be seen as frustrating for others. And the same in reverse; I personally can not for the life of me get into the Bioshock games. I played the latest one, beat it, and then just said "Yep, so much for that! Now I can safely assume most of the other Bioshocks will be the same, and I'm golden!" Games is such a wide variety that it makes us as gamers split many times over on preferences and such. And for the record; I have never played Dwarf Fortress, but I have played most of the Total War games, with the glaring exceptions of Shogun 1, Napoleon, and Empire. I am a strategy gamer, which makes me unique in a way because "Strategy" is a broad spectrum of colourful chaos and death. My cousin, on the other hand, is a Nintendo nerd, and I can see the appeal of playing as Mario, but I have always preferred games that are made to think about. Tell me what type you are, and let us have a fun discussion here in the comments. Even people who has only played Call of Duty is welcome.

[@apudharald2435]

Mike Fluff strategy, starting with Civ (I). I found the NES games of my cousins excruciatingly boring, and vice versa. 25 years later, I still find consoles a bore while my nephews are bewildered by HOI and EU. 2 genres with little in common, think epic poetry a la Gilgamesh v Magic Realism/stream of consciousness. Presumably you might read both, but few people will enjoy both.

[@GreenGorgeousness]

Mike Fluff My favorites are Runners, like Sonic, Freedom Planet, Bit Trip Presents Runner 2.... But personally, I like to play all genres from time to time.

[@Angel33Demon666]

Mike Fluff Forever waiting for Vicky 3

[@bowmanruto]

mike fluff, I'm about as varied a gamer as there is I love variety in games above all else. I love games can sink my teeth into and take me hours to complete like Master of Orion and warhammer 40k (which is technically a board game but I most often play the game trough ''tabletop simulator'' so it counts as a video game i.m.o.), I love narrative and atmospheric games like metal gear rising and the souls series, and I love the more ''casual'' games like call off duty or race the sun, and everything in between.... but if i had to pick one genre as my favorite games, the one genre off games i would take with me to a deserted island without fail... i would have to say creative games, game with a focus on creativity and problem solving like; space engineers, minecraft, roller-coaster tycoon and rust (the last to a lesser extent since its more survival then creativity but it still applies)

[@KatherineFtw]

I'm very much a Strategy, RPG, and Hack 'N Slash/Brawler player, although I do love Visual Novels from time to time. The problem for me is I cannot for the life of me enjoy or play Puzzle games/Walking Sims (They go in the same area for me) or Platformers.

[@Alienrun]

Harder games are easier for me to get through when I'm younger and have more motivation to complete them...personally this applied to Sonic 3 as a kid and IWBTG as a teen (and Touhou now ironically) As an adult though, I have less time, less reason to give into what I'm not already familiar with. I think that's just the way it goes though, its good to expand on yourself as a person as a whole! :D

[@Roxor128]

I Wanna Be The Guy... Ouch. Still there's something to be said for getting killed three different ways on the same screen. The dev can't be called unimaginative, that's for sure. A skilled torturer seems accurate, though.

[@Alienrun]

***** If you can get past the BS there is a beautifully designed game on the other side of it. Would personally reccomend "I Wanna Be The Fangame" over it, but you get the idea. It's by no means the perfect way to design a "hard game" but I don't think that means its bad. Once you get the physics and controls down, it can still be very rewarding to beat a level/boss!

[@benin8or]

THIS! This is why I love this channel! This is a question I've been trying to answer for the better part of 5 years. I truly feel that if we are able to teach basic game literacy to a much larger audience, we would be able to treat, prevent, and solve a lot of problems we have in the world.

[@Bedinsis]

I am reminded of how for the Windows operating system Microsoft made sure to have an installation of the card game solitaire available. Not necessarily to ensure that a fun-time-activity came with the package, but because in solitaire the various cards are dragged with the mouse in order to play, and this served as a good tutorial in how one could draw the various application windows across the screen as the need for the various applications shifted. Since people already knew how the card game solitaire worked they could figure out the rest.

[@Nopp3]

dwarf fortress isn't that bad. I got the gist of it after about 20 episoders of captducks tutorials at 10min each.

[@dennytampubolon3259]

DF is kinda easy once you get the hang of it.

[@spencerpowell9289]

that's over 3 hours of tutorials

[@captainconlang9367]

It took a while for me to get a good understanding of Dwarf Fortress, but I figured it out and love it.

[@matesafranka6110]

This is something I've wondered myself as well. I'm working on a turn-based tactical game, and I'm writing the tutorial right now. I write things like "Each unit can take a certain amount of damage before it's killed. This is measured in Hit Points (HP)," and I'm thinking, "Is this even necessary?" Years ago, I once read an article on GameSpot wherein the writer complained about tutorials in games and how annoying it is for experienced gamers to, as you put it, basically be taught how to read over and over in each new game they play. And I kind of wondered, who would be playing my game when I release it? Since it'll be in a mobile app store, it's much more likely to be discovered by people who've already played something like this than someone who's never heard of HP. But on the other hand, the game itself is still kind of simple, so it might actually be someone's first foray into the genre (which would honestly make me really happy :)), and in that case I wouldn't want to alienate them.

[@liamsgreatbitgaming]

Mate Safranka My suggestion? When you boot up the game, ask the player if they know what HP and EXP is. If they say no, ask if they've played any RPGs. If no, give them the tutorial.

[@Roxor128]

You could have several parts to the tutorial and let the player tell you how familiar they are with the genre you're making and gaming in general, and then skip the relevant parts of the tutorial. Eg, Have a set of options named things like "This is my first ever game, assume I know nothing", "Played a few puzzle games, teach me the basic mechanics of this genre", "Played a few games of this genre, just teach me what's specific to this game".

[@satannstuff]

I'll copypaste one of my previous comments for your benefit, it might come in handy: Seems like a decent solution to increase games literacy would be to have players indicate what their literacy level is and having multiple tutorials tuned to that. For example: "I have not played any video game before" "I have not played this kind of video game before" "I have not played this specific video game before" "Just give me the controls, I'll figure it out" "Just let me play the game already"

[@matthewmillar3804]

You guys have such a good thing going here. I love your episodes, I love the art, I love the anthropomorphizing of video games, I love the content, and I love that the content doesn't always apply strictly, only to games. Keep up the awesome work! :D And I LOOOOOVE Extra History! Do that lots more too! :)

[@NoahHayes]

This has been one of my favorite videos you've posted on your channel, very well thought out and a great discussion starter

[@Madalovin]

I love the "Heck!" snake. So cute. Cute Snek.

[@MrMurc2]

Im introducing my girlfriend to games and ive been playing games for many years. She however has never had a computer and played any games more complicated than Candy Crush or 2048. I sugested she play portal and had my mind boggled when she couldn't get out of the starting room. I had never even considered that someone would have difficulty with this. Quickly i turned to my favorite old standby minecraft. Minecrafts creative mode on a superflat or simple world is a beautiful introduction to many concepts without having to be incredibly gaming literate to do much. It has menus GUIs npcs hostiles multiplayer tools resources storage management etc and you can go at your own pace with whatever interests you. I also recommend people who are new piddle around on new-grounds or crazy monkey games where the games are all really simple and easy to pick up or put down. We all started there at BTD Madness and games like that because they were quick easy to digest and frankly just fun. Maybe we should look at it the same way we look at reading books. Read Dr Suess with them then when they are ready for harder stuff move them up.

[@maxybaer123]

I reccomend Mario then paper Mario if you have a Wii/U as there good at helping with 3D space as you learn the controls for one and then switch to something similar but different. Also portals really hard

[@ReallySicName]

The next videos expanding this topic cant get here soon enough! EC Team, you guys rock!

[@mattkuhn6634]

I'm really glad that you took the analogy of literacy further than just a name, because it's often how I explain the problem to other gamers. In a very real sense, people who lack basic game literacy cannot "read" the game. They just don't know where to look for meaning, or even what kinds of meaning they're looking for. Telling someone "that's your health bar" doesn't tell them why they care about health at all. And this crosses over into pen and paper roleplaying games as well, like D&D. Many times I've found that a major cause of frustration for new players centers around failure to communicate this basic literacy. It's why the best games to use to introduce people to gaming are often very light on mechanics - they can be explained in a sentence or two and have intuitive controls, so it's easier for new players to overcome that gap. Definitely liked the episode!

[@theknight334]

I'm thinking about you "Monster Hunter!" A game I'm glad I struggled to learn, but definitely could have been taught and instructed better.

[@LiveLXStudios]

Persona 4 music remix for the outro song? Nice. You should talk about the Persona series sometime.

[@diegoantoniorosariopalomin4977]

LX maybe they will talk about the Level-Up at Intimacy 5 trope

[@jeremysaklad6703]

If you just made a version of this episode geared towards those who aren’t games-literate, I’d totally send it to people. Excellent work!

[@brandonmaisonneuve6461]

I really love the concepts in this video. The way its all articulated makes so much sense to me, I can't believe such an issue was even present at this complicated of a level. Nothing we as a community can't fix with time and effort though!

[@AkhierDragonheart]

We need to increase literacy so more people can get into Dwarf Fortress.

[@jeffersondemott2125]

I think we over simplify the idea of "game literacy" in the area of game genre, imo game types are in a sense different game languages, sports games are indeed fundamentally different from shooters or strategy games, and this isn't necessarily a problem because they're like languages, different and have to be learned differently, English isn't learned like Chinese.

[@thepinkestpigglet7529]

Jefferson DeMott But a fantasy book is read the same way you read a sci-fi novel.

[@jeffersondemott2125]

***** not at all, you can't read Conan the Barbarian like star trek or star wars. Each have respective jargon, styles and acceptable lengths of suspension of disbelief. They may be similar but not the same

[@maxybaer123]

+R Rainwater no you dont not at all aside from the terminology difference sci-fi has a much larger focus on philosophy and new ideas for the future and fantasy on morality not to mention differences in styles

[@thepinkestpigglet7529]

maxybaer123 ...What do you think philosophy means? Because morality is kind of covered under it... Jefferson DeMott Fantasy is Scifi but with magic as and explanation instead of science. The difference is what they call things. For example, a winged humonoid from the sky with the ability to make miraculous things happen would be an angel in a fantasy story, and an alien in a scifi story. They're the same genre but with different terminology.

[@jeffersondemott2125]

***** not really, they may share themes and similarities, but on a fundamental level they are distinct. Now what I believe you are referring to is science fantasy, which is a fantasy story set in a scientifically advanced setting, an example of this is star wars, or dune.

[@darkmage07070777]

Very timely topic! I had an older friend of mine - who grew up before video games existed and now sees me playing them all the time - ask me if there are "any games that are good for learning how to play games". Another friend of mine literally responded with "Just play something that looks cool and you'll get it". I found that answer to be really callous, but even I had trouble coming up with a solution for her, despite playing for decades and loving multiple genres from Grand Strategy to FPS to Platformers to Hunting: "Point-n-click style adventures for getting used to the controller; Mario Platformers to build muscle memory" was the best I could do, and even then, most of the current ones take basic stuff like "health bars" and "power ups" for granted. I don't want to force her to go back to the 70s and 80s to learn how to play just because those are the games with tutorials that teach you these concepts. And suggesting games meant for really young kids feels rather insulting. It was really frustrating because I want her to understand the joy I get from playing, and she's not part of that crowd right now. I can, of course, be her guide as she learned, but what about those who don't have friends who play games? (don't laugh: gaming isn't as wide-spread as you like to think) I can see this being a problem for globalization of games, too: will game developers have to redo tutorials when they market games to Africa on a massive scale? What if it's reversed and a game maker from Africa tries to market their awesome game that has local UI or control schemes to the rest of the world?

[@missedthebandwagon976]

Great episode! Really got my mind going on something I've never thought about. I love this show, and I mean absolutely no insult in this, but I think my favorite thing about this channel is the art.

[@Bandogphoto]

I think mobile games are helping less game literate people break in a little bit. They slowly get the hang of simple games they can often play with their families or friends, and they are free so they are very accessible.

[@peterknutsen3070]

I disagree. Freemium games are so different from real (purchase-the-game-once) games that they’re not actually games at all. They teach bad expectations.

[@jasonyesmarc309]

Something interesting I observed once: My girlfriend grew up in a household that essentially forbade videogames, and when we started dating, she tried playing a lot of the games I was into. When she picked up Crysis 2, she had the hand-eye coordination to play a PC FPS game, but didn't really have a lot of the "literacy". For example, most gamers seem to sense where the path of the level is going and can follow it with ease. Meanwhile, she was going over every inch of the level until she happened to find the next part of the level progression. The path wasn't immediately obvious, because this was probably the first time she had to navigate a 3D shooter level. Idk, just think it's interesting. She has, like, thousands of hours in the Portal and Fallout franchises at this point, so she's as good as I am in FPS games now, but introduction was just kinda cool to watch.

[@maxsmith1335]

This is very important for developers, I was recently in a game jam, and I noticed how most of the entries (Including mine to some extent) seemed to assume the person playing them would understand how they set up the controls and mechanics, which caused a lot of people who played the game to not be able to get past the first screen

[@ThomCote88]

This is definitely one of my favorites of your videos so far!

[@Horesmi]

Victoria 2. It's so complex that economy crashes randomly just like in real time.

[@victorvazquez9913]

AlHoresmi I love the complexity of the game, but I can define you see how people who are new to strategy games could be easily lost and confused given the games many knobs and buttons

[@Horesmi]

victor vazquez I agree, I don't understand it much ether. You need a special kind of inspiration to get into these types of games. And a lot of time. So I'll stick to Incest Simulator 2012.

[@diegoantoniorosariopalomin4977]

AlHoresmi economies dont crash randomly i dont know of an economic crash that hasnt been predicted

[@Horesmi]

Diego Antonio Rosario Palomino I'm sure an economist knows economy, but crashes are random to us pewny peasants.

[@tomjackal5708]

tiny snek at 4:20

[@Daonitre]

This is a perfect explanation video for all those times I intentionally played terribly just to let my partner (or opponent) feel like they weren't powerless... Having been playing a wide variety of games since the late 80's I feel my games literacy is exceptionally further than most everyone I know. I was the guy that picked up Dwarf Fortress just because it was free and played it almost non-stop for a year... 9ish years later I'm still playing it occasionally. Since I never focused on a single genre I do find plenty of people (who did focus) that can completely wipe me out in specific competitive plays though. I do have to say that for those of us with higher-than-average GL it's nice to be able to kick back and have a chat about almost any game; even ones we haven't directly played as we can immediately relate them to so many other similar game mechanics and storyline tropes.

[@GreebsCitizen]

This is one of the best vids you all have ever done. Excellent, a lot to think about and work with.

[@d1o2c3t4o5r]

Will DarkSydePhil ever have basic games literacy? Can we put together a basic curriculum to help him understand crouch jumps, and why you shouldn't bring a shotgun to a sniper battle?

[@margustoo]

When I hear gaming literacy then I am think about knowledge of what button does what and knowledge of what mechanic does what.. basically knowledges that allow you to skip help menu. Sadly you guys are mixing this term up with gaming experience (f.e how many games have you played)..

[@i8dacookies890]

Wow I'm really impressed on the picture that's on when you say the twist in Baid. It's a pun, a double meaning, and nods at the actual twist without spoiling it at all.

[@laterkater4213]

Great video! I only ever played computer games until I got my PS4 just over a year ago and only then did I have to put some work in to actually getting good at gaming. It's really interesting to realize how much knowledge I have gained in that relatively short period, from figuring out how to move two control sticks at once to knowing which way the game wants me to go because I can read a landscape and pick up on contextual clues. I've also learnt what I like and don't like in games, which is another thing you gotta learn. I played Uncharted 4 twice, bumping the difficulty up to medium, but played 5 hours of Fallout 4 before putting it down forever. I loved Dishonored so much I played it right through even though I found it really hard even on easy mode, but I got bored playing Tearaway Unfolded and gave up. Until you start gaming and experimenting you don't know what you like. I worry all people see of games is the ubiquitous COD style aggressive multiplayer or Mario. Nothing wrong with those games but there is so much more to gaming! Neither of those games interest me much, but give me a story that surprises me and characters that matter and I will keep playing. 😊

[@KingTwelveSixteen]

Aw, you didn't use House of Leaves as an example of a really hard to read book? I was a bit disappointed in that.

[@Alorand]

You should do that "List of Games for Beginners" thing that you mentioned.

[@maxybaer123]

they should do a humble beginner bundle for people to but and give to friends i would totally but that.... if i had any non-gamer friends who had any interest in gaming

[@talalx8]

Alorand dark souls

[@maxybaer123]

i mean that game while hard if you could learn it would teach you how to be literate but in a way its like a test as its hard but if you make it through you passed

[@JLacan]

One of the best episodes so far. Keep up the great work guys!

[@kalythgaming]

Guys, it's always such a pleasure watching your videos I'm always looking forward to the next one! Kudos!

[@CelioHogane]

Wait what? Who starts a game trilogy by the middle?

[@josephsheehan6079]

Celio Hogane Basically everyone. Whose first Mario game was "Donkey Kong" or even Super Mario? Whose first Zelda game was "The Legend of Zelda?" Who on gods green earth has played Elder Scrolls arena or Zelda II the adventure of link? Hell it's probably hard to track down an Assassin's Creed one disk now days.

[@Aipe97]

quick and simple example, what if you own a ps4, but have never owned a ps3. What if you see the uncharted game and go straight to play it without knowing that all previous entries were on a previous generation of consoles. so even if the player wants to go to the beginning to know whats going on he cant.

[@PipPanoma]

Those who have no idea of the history of that game and those who are unable to play the previous parts because it's on a different console.

[@CelioHogane]

Joseph Sheehan Those are games where is irrelevant where to start since they do not have a solid continuity

[@CelioHogane]

Aipe97 i would watch a gameplay of the ones i can't play and then play the ones i have.

[@Katana314]

Been so wanting an episode like this. I consider myself "middle of the road" in terms of gaming skill (or, in this episode's depictions, literacy). I can play some tough games like Ori and the Blind Forest (on hard mode) or Furi. I want other people to experience these great games; and I think that simply making these games easier or having them play themselves is not the right way to experience them - it's a holistic work. But I also acknowledge that as more and more topics come up on game suggestion subreddits where people ask "I'm just getting someone into gaming! Any recommendations?" I really fail to come up with good suggestions that aren't back on the N64 and have a set of their own modern accessibility issues. There's definitely an issue here - but there's a specific desire *not* to solve it by gaming's hardcore elite, who keep falsely insisting that accessibility is the polar opposite of challenge, or that "those players should just play other games". I fervently believe there are more people out there than many would expect, who are fully capable of playing and immersing themselves in the many games that Steam has to offer, but are just overwhelmed not only by the gaming vocabulary necessary, but the intimidating nature of the players they'd be meeting on their way in. Often, the time commitment, the learning difficulties, are just unnecessary to a degree gamers won't agree with because they handled it. They're the kid at 7:50 - they survived those difficult learning periods where games gave you limited lives and had no tutorials, but as a result of having gone through that, they feel a sense of ownership - of having earned their spot, and often don't quite realize how much the field of interface design could actually make inheriting the same knowledge and the same skills *easier* for the next generation.

[@TheSyntheticSnake]

Hey, I've been loving your series and have especially loved when you specifically covered what makes some different games enduring. Have you ever considered doing an episode or two on Stalker?

[@NeutralIon]

I'm so glad this video exists. A couple years ago, my mother, having observed my twenty-some years' fascination with video games, once asked me if I could teach her how they work and how to play them because she wanted to better understand their appeal. I was happy to consider the prospect and began brainstorming games I could show her that are not only engaging but could easily disseminate the language of games to someone who's only experienced the medium at a superficial level. Even with those ideas, there's still the matter of trying to articulate that language in words and the fundamental difficulty in that articulation between someone who was cultivated in the medium and someone who wasn't. This video makes for a great stepping stone when it comes to addressing some of those challenges. I'd like to think that games are generally more accessible and diverse now than ever, but it's just as important to be able to democratize an understanding of the principles of the medium if it means we can broaden our discourse on games or even just better share games-related experiences with friends and family. All of this to say: thanks, EC crew! I guess I have something to pass along to my folks now.

[@NocturnalAegis]

I absolutely love learning with you all. Keep up the amazing work.

[@DragonDoFogo]

Love that you keep adding this challenges for designers.

[@stevethepocket]

Another factor to consider is that most games - even really easy ones - present getting through them as a challenge by design. Knowing this smooths over a lot of bumps in the road, because anything the player doesn't already know going into it can be assumed to be part of that challenge, even if it wasn't meant to be. The important thing for game designers to consider is that they need to make the purpose of things clear. For example, that floating health bar you mentioned? I bet everyone could be thrown into a game that uses those and figure out almost immediately what they're for, based on the fact that they all drain when the enemy is hit. If every mechanic could be made that clear, we wouldn't have to expect players to know things going in.

[@RedBlueProductions1]

this video actually incentivized me to study games from earlier decades. I've got the idea now to make a game that just is a tutorial on basic literacy in this medium. I mean I have another project to do right now so I can't do that, but the idea is on paper.

[@Nwoknu]

Seeing the red cross at 5:07 reminds me of Mark Morris and Chris Delay from Introversion Games, who are now considered war criminals for having used it in Prison Architect until about a month ago

[@NamelessBody]

They are not considered war criminals. They broke a law but fixed the problem, no charges were pressed, and they are innocent by merit of not having been sentenced by any court. But yes, the red cross might object to its use in this video too. The reason is: The red cross, under all circumstances, must be reserved for only one use: To identify safe areas in times of war, disaster and uncertainty and medical equipment, facilities and personell. If it becomes the universal symbol for healthcare (as it partially already has!) it might eventually suffer the fate of the confederate flag: That flag is a very specific symbol with a very specific meaning. But these days, most people who have that flag on their cars or in their homes have not much to say about that specific meaning. It's become a symbol of being a conservative american in general, from people who are really nice but just like to look and feel of it, to right-wing extremists. It's watered down and doesn't mean anything anymore. That isn't a big problem: The flag has no official use anymore, so it's fine this way. The red cross still has a very important use: It's a "do not under any circumstances attack" sign. And as such, not only can it not be on any vehicles, uniforms or structures that aren't actually protected by international law (such as hospitals, ambulances and medics), it also can't be used all too freely in print and video, because it might lose its unique meaning and be considered a general symbol for health. And if that happens (again, we're not all too far from that state anyway), we need a NEW symbol for actually protecting something from any sort of attack. Which we would then have to spread to be known everywhere, protect it by law and also defend its use in any other circumstance. Are you aware of the red crystal? Do you think a random soldier is? It's not like Mark and Chris were being treated harshly at all. They were asked nicely to put it down, and the legal background was explained to them. And I think although we can all agree that a single cross in a single game or video is no problem and no threat for the geneva convention - the watering down of the symbol is. Because eventually, people won't recognize it as "untouchable thing, do not bomb" anymore if it shows up too often in other meanings. I understand why the red crosses lawyers are keen on protecting the symbol from that, and so far they've been pretty nice about it and explained it in depth when asked. We, as humans on earth, need a symbol that signifies "this is under no circumstances to be attacked", and this symbol must only be on things that, under no circumstances, are to be attacked. It's bad enough that many commanders and soldiers and especially unconventional forces will ignore it anyway. But at least occasionally, it still protects its wearer, today.

[@Nwoknu]

Thanks for the clarification and the correction about the war criminal thing, I must have missed a few lines of information there :)

[@MartialistKS]

My Dad is working his way through Donkey Kong 64 right now and I see a lot of this when I watch him play. It used to be he struggled to navigate a 3D space or use the controller without needing to look down at it all the time but now he gets through that stuff just fine.

[@paultapping9510]

Fascinating. A friend of mine recently bought a PS4 having not played a console since his last, a PS2. He entirely missed the shift to player-controlled cameras, and as such has struggled to adjust to the new generation. So it's an ongoing learning process.

[@Suprsim]

Such a cool topic! Can't wait for number 2!

[@TopSpot123]

In the earlier days of your series, in let’s say 2011, your show inspired me to develop a video game essay myself. Although I never fully produced it, this episode covers most of what I wanted to say then. At that time there was an ever mounting debate of the ‘casual’ vs the ‘hardcore’ gamer. I wanted to propose the idea that the determining factor of who played what wasn’t the qualities of the game or gamer, but rather the number of *barriers of entry* that seem intrinsic in particular games or series. These could be identified in increasing game play complexities, deep seated genre conventions, or even the intimidating task of understanding the purposes of all those controller buttons. I love your choice of the term *literacy* to describe these factors. Any long standing sub-interest, including video gaming, presents a steep learning curve for newcomers, but one that is invisible to the active group. Or worse, used as a weapon to judge and divide. I just wanted to add to this conversation that I feel Nintendo actively tries to address these barriers in their game designs. Since their ‘blue ocean’ strategy with the Wii, they have worked to lower barriers of entry for their software and hardware. In some of their games, they reduce the requirements of what counts as a ‘win’ state, but there are alternative or optional in-game goals that allow the software to keep rewarding improved play. From their Touch Generations label to Super Mario 3D World’s Invincibility Leaf, they keep experimenting with ideas of how to reduce newcomer’s confusions or frustrations while not watering down the whole product for others. Their success in these experiments is up for debate, but I understand and appreciate what they are trying to resolve. Unfortunately these compromises are able to be seen as further solidifying the idea that Nintendo is a kiddie company that only makes kiddie games. Thank you for another great episode and I can’t wait to see the follow up!

[@Pablo_Gardens]

As someone who’s never played videogames before, the line about how someone joining in feels like they’re jumping in the middle of series among series is so true. I don’t even know where to start or what to begin playing because there’s so many terms and things that hard for me to grasp. In the few times I have played, I just spam the controls because taking the time to actually think and remember what to press takes way too much focus to be enjoyable. But overtime that’ll change

[@energyeve2152]

Thank you for sharing this. I recently got into learning more about video games and education. I hope to bridge those two at all levels so we can change the way we learn ^_^

[@lawragatajar]

The bit about the health bars reminds me of manuals that show a battle screen and label each component with a description of what it represents. It's something I gloss over since I'm familiar with games, but it can be handy to have as a reference to help identify what is going on on the screen. Unfortunately, we have done away with a physical manual that players can consult while playing the game.

[@Zweistein001]

Wow. This video really opened my eyes to some of the problems beginners have entering out medium. This video gave me a new perspective to consider. This might make it easier for me to teach basic game literacy to my cousins, and finally be able to one day play games with them as an equal, rather than as a kinder garden-level teacher.

[@iWillWakeYouUp]

One of THE best videos I've watched from you guys.

[@lenon3579ify]

I'm having this with my 6yo daughter, as I'm presenting her with some games like Minecraft, Spore, LEGO Hobbit and The Sims. It's fantastic to see her learning the same way when she was learning to read (she learned to read by herself when she was 4yo). The most difficult part yet is teaching her the concept of "safe zone"... that losing is normal and ok and you can just go again - she still fears too much and feels too much when her character "dies".

[@JustJunuh]

I agree! It makes it so difficult for new people to join especially with the persona of "Games are for hardcore people and take lots of skill" that some elitests present to bystanders. When getting to more advanced literacy, there are still many many genres that I know how to play but not play effectively and efficiently. But me, as well as any other gamer, has the basic literacy down which empowers us to be able to reach advanced literacy in any genre.

[@AkizaVesper]

Well... Bronze 5 then?

[@JustJunuh]

XD Not gone full into ranked quite yet. Sitting at b2 😐

[@AkizaVesper]

well... hey, if it cheers you up, I'm the representative from the wood division :D

[@prnsxsa]

It's very sad to hear, honestly. Every art has that bunch of elitists. We have those people in gaming who insist that if you haven't achieved this in this specific game, you're not a true gamer. We have those in art who insist that if you use bases, you aren't a real artist (though bases are a good starting point, and people who use them are indeed well on their way to becoming "real" artists). We have those in music who insist that if you cannot tell a G from an F# or at least memorize all of Paganini's 24 Caprices, you're not a true musician. Art is a beautiful thing. What's beautiful about music is that anyone can make an inanimate object sing and decorate time, what's beautiful about the more visual art is that one can express and bring to life so many things with just a substance filled with wiggly light on paper. Gaming, like any other artistic medium, changes lives, for better and for worse on occasions, brings people together and stimulates the senses and the mind in unique ways. It's heartbreaking to hear about people who refuse to try any of the aforementioned media because of those people who engage in these things, who have looked down on them and dissuaded them from ever stepping a toe in these experiences for the sole reason that they don't know what they're getting into.

[@Electru522]

God damn, I love this channel. Extra Credits is one of the very few groups of people that are trying to show the world that gaming is the future, and it's not nearly as bad as it seems. Pertaining to achieving basic game literacy, I'd say give it another 20 years or so. We're going to need at least one more generation before the general populace can pick up a controller with ease, and we're already seeing the fruits of this.

[@WeAreAllGeeksHere]

Great video. I've been introducing a friend to the world of electronic games, and it's been challenging and rewarding for both of us.

[@kotori87]

When I was first getting into Danmaku/Bullet Hell/Curtain Fire games, I found I was struggling a lot to learn the basic concepts of the genre. Some kind people pointed me to a dedicated bullet hell training game. It explained the basic controls in a clear and concise manner, then let me try it out. It discussed basic tactics, showed examples, then let me try them out. My mind was blown by the revelation that different styles of curtain fire required different techniques to dodge, and this training game let me try out specific techniques under controlled circumstances, which greatly improved my gameplay. Each bullet hell game has its own unique features, but now that I know the basics for every game I can focus on learning the specifics of each game. Watching my dad struggle to learn PC FPS controls for the first time, I found myself wishing for a similar tutorial game. Same thing when teaching my uncle about RTS games.

[@baratacom]

One of my favorite entry-level games (and the one I actually used, coming late to this whole "veedeeogames party") is Kirby, specifically Kirby Superstar. Fairly easy but with enough depth for me to discover whenever I'm ready for it and still challenging on some basic level leading to decent sense of accomplishment. All the while teaching basic ideas that'll be shared with many games, even today as well as very basic (but often overlooked stuff) like reading in-game text and just experimenting to see what works and what doesn't.

[@sandwichboy1268]

I really love games that unveil their mechanical depth as you get deeper into the game. Currently playing Ghost of Tsushima Legends and am experimenting with different builds to see what I like and can do crazy stuff with. I've also played some very smooth matchmade missions (on gold difficulty) with other players who have a build they like, are decent enough at the combat to not be a liability, and don't skip over the bonus objectives.

[@gameXylinder]

7:38 Haha, I love it! I admit, even as someone who has played games since early childhood, sometimes I don't even want to get into a new game if it's a franchise, out of fear of missing out on important stuff, gameplay or story wise, from previous installments

[@Ubersupersloth]

When I was trying to get my mum into video games, I had her play Thomas Was Alone. She said it was very well tutorialised and enjoyed it quite a bit.

[@csours]

I remember trying to play mystery swap meet C64 games without a manual or any real idea what the game was even supposed to be. I would start with the arrow keys, space bar, etc, then systematically press every button in order, then try modifiers, etc. Nowadays, most games start with some sort of interactive tutorial (the best ones make this seamless).