Making Your First Game: Minimum Viable Product - Scope Small, Start Right - Extra Credits

[@athena9705]

"It needs to be fun before it looks cool" -Bungie 2002

[@serdarcs3373]

The Flame Cat! -Truth 2016

[@HajduDIGITAL]

And then they made Destiny....

[@matteovukoja1240]

"It needs to look cool before it's fun!" Bungie 2014

[@jessicalee333]

The corollary to that is: If it's not fun when it doesn't look cool, it's not going to get much more fun no matter how cool it looks.

[@revenreven8209]

Athena yeah just look at cod ww2 it looks cool…

[@futuza]

As a developer, this is really good advice. You need to figure out if your core mechanics are interesting on their own without all the fluff. If they aren't you need a new idea.

[@rafaelanim8]

You are a developer? I have an app idea. Its just like facebook(...)

[@futuza]

@@rafaelanim8 *hides*

[@OrekiBurd]

@@futuza 🤣🤣🤣

[@OriJ123]

So when i call someone an MVP i am actually calling them a Minimum Viable Product?

[@beybladeworld6377]

Ori J I guess so

[@namkedi]

pretty much

[@novaiiee]

Roasted

[@baguettes2438]

*That... We need to recruit you.*

[@pinkliongaming8769]

Lol

[@Jvep420]

Strange how a game designer's ambition can be their greatest asset or their greatest downfall. I've had this happen to me a lot in college; where my scope was just way too big.

[@Lurdiak]

That's common across many mediums. Even just writing a story that's too big can be the downfall of a starting novelist.

[@caramida9]

Cool Stuff... so for a platformer I'll just need a dot moving and jumping across a surface... then I'm good to start...

[@mahe4]

and somewhere to fall into... but that is more optional.

[@Anergyne]

Pretty much. Everything else is fluff.

[@caramida9]

Cool... you guys think I can wrap that up and put it on early access on steam... I mean it can't be worse than what I've seen...

[@az112lego]

caramida9 Just be carefull! ALso it's hard to get a game on steam, becoaus they have to e if the game reaches the yousers expectations. Otherwise steam would just be flodded with "Comming soon" games.

[@tehcaptainhair]

No, you've made a full game at this point. Call it art and throw it on Steam Greenlight!

[@arc2444]

so you have to stop cutting sometime , so how do we determin- *video starts loading* my internet is bad at being stable but it knows when to cut

[@burningmagyk4986]

lmao

[@Mitaka.Kotsuka]

LOL

[@NintendoWizard24]

this actually is great advice for ANYTHING, im an artist and i could actually use most these advise when drawing or writing (looking at it from a broad perspective), and thats worth a thumbs up for the video

[@arvideriksson]

Minimum viable product? it's like the motto of EA

[@arvideriksson]

wait, scratch "viable" and we got it

[@jaydenlyons9846]

Funniest thing iv saw all day.

[@Chiaros]

Truer now than ever

[@liamwilson3415]

Yeah welcome to 2017

[@wispy9859]

Your statement is gratified even further by EA's presence today.

[@DarthRadical]

I will say - menu-based combat CAN be engaging. Pokemon has proved that. So - a menu based combat with an engaging rock-paper-scissors system (Pokemon elements are really just a far more complex version of that at their core) can be engaging due to the inherent tactical choices.

[@TheRayny]

+DarthRadical that, however, is a mechanic. If we consider standard menu commands, you have only attack and, just to stay barebones, few or one magic command. Which feels a lot different.

[@jamesa465]

I suppose that was what happened in Dinosaur King, both in the arcade and DS versions. Yes, you could set moves and there was a little bit of strategy in that respect, but the actual combat was genuine rock-paper-scissors.

[@DarthRadical]

I disagree. With the definition from the video, the rock-scissors-paper aspect of such a game is a core part of "rules that control the play itself". (Make them just words on the screen "fire" / "water" / "leaf" etc.) Now - more than 1 of each pokemon type & more than 1 move each probably qualify as content. Even in his example of menu based combat being bad includes multiple foe types.

[@youtoober2013]

People really underestimate this system.

[@corn2454]

A much better example would be the ATB system from the early FFs that force you to quickly navigate menus, or Bravely default that has interesting decisions to make with just attack, brave, and default.

[@EagleGamer15]

Thank, really needed this. I have a tendency to over-complicate things in my head, and not only do I make game designs WAY too complicated for my skill level, but after the last couple episodes I even made making a minimum viable product more complicated than it needed to be XD Thanks EC!

[@georgewest3787]

Remove the 'Viable' And it's EA's business model.

[@vampbat]

Those HM01 jokes are greatly appreciated. Thank you for this good advice. I'm trying to get a prototype of this game DONE asap so I don't waste time from the start! *Edit 8 months on:* I finished my prototype! Got hung up on what I didn't know that I didn't know. 😎 After I figured out collision areas better, and started looking into signals for smarter/less buggy coding, things clicked and I finished my project in less than a month. Now I get the fundamentals, since I didn't *know* what to ask the internet for help on!

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

MVP for my game: Tic-Tac-Toe but you can take an opponent's spot by winning a coin flip. Very simple.

[@baguettes2438]

That's a good idea :D

[@AN-ou6qu]

KZbin University very cool!

[@theplumscrub1627]

KZbin University Woah, that sounds super fun!

[@FeeeebleVT]

that's interesting, at least better than plain tic-tac-toe

[@prateekpanwar646]

Late, But Genius

[@Scarletraven87]

5:54

[@midwestspleeno]

+Doran Martell Did you really think prototyping a strategy game would be simple?

[@Scarletraven87]

vidEOkid12345 No, I do not. I do belive that my understanding of what would/wouldn't be fun is above the average. Expecially considering that - at present times - a common misconception of "fun" is associating Guns, Zombies, and Crafting.

[@danielhall271]

+Doran Martell Looks like we found out why my favorite genre RTS is under-produced.

[@MM-pu8hc]

RIP

[@Squaretable22]

Turn based strategy isn't even mentioned

[@Dunoid]

All I see in the comments: "waah you bashed Totalbiscuit or something" "waah you don't like GamerGate" I'm here for intelligent conversation about game development, not your internet hate-machine gossip. Keep that shit on Twitter.

[@wildgoosespeeder]

Minimum viable product for Portal and Portal 2 are probably the portals, surfaces to shoot portals onto (like a room to just go all freeform), basic physics system, and some way for the player to control the portals (I'm not saying the portal gun because that would be a content piece). That is probably how the core concept got started all the way back when it was just Narbacular Drop and Valve had no idea that development team existed.

[@GoIdheart]

The minimum viable product for Portal would be a cubic room top-to-bottom with portalable surfaces and a wide pit separating you and a static portal from the goal door. You control just one portal of the two, with the other one being on your side of the pit. All movement and physics would be part of the rules of the game.

[@JoshForeman]

Hooray! Concrete examples FTW!

[@future3k832]

for the win

[@buggy65x]

The art for "This one is a bit tough." made me chuckle a lot. Good on ya'!

[@ViniciusC94]

Basicaly, pretend you are creating a game for Atari?

[@quasar.nebula]

+Vinicius Correia Just remember you don't need to use Assembly :)

[@yugiohguy]

Kek

[@DarkYuan]

That is a really good ideology! But, at least try to make the game explain itself rather than expecting the player to read its entire manual to find out this green square is a key, and that green rectangle is a platform!

[@SynphamyMusic]

I know this is months old but i would recommend playing some of Valve's games (particularly the portal games) with the commentary on, also, Thomas Is Alone with commentary, those give a really interesting insight into how those games were designed, they give really cool explanations about how they do certain things knowing where the player is going to be looking in the world, using clever ways to control the player's attention in some aspects. It's a good way to see quality design and how it's done.

[@PurpleKnightmare]

Yes, as Atari stopped making games in the 80s. They just resell the same old games over and over now.

[@tangerian319]

as a budding game designer this series is PERFECT. Seriously, all the things that these guys have said so far is PRECISELY all the things that I ran into when trying to make games. Should have watched this years ago T-T

[@darrenho4287]

This makes a lot of sense even if it's not your first game. Before you start building your game and wasting a lot of time and resource into content on something you think might work, build a minimum viable product first to get an idea how the game will work and whether it's even good in the first place, heck you'll likely even get more ideas better than what you had before to put into your game. As mentioned in the video even if it is a big AAA budget game, having a minimum viable product first will help you realize the potential of the core gameplay mechanics and if say it doesn't work then it most likely would not have worked and you just saved yourself a lot of time and resource from trying to make content for it. However just because it doesn't work doesn't mean it's over, it just means there's something wrong or something not good enough that you need to change/improve and it can even make you realize potential problems with the game that you can avoid or change when developing it (remember the fail faster video and how learning the problems (or the potential of it) and mistakes of your game can help you make a better game).

[@pilipma8485]

Please make a separate playlist for this topic so there is an option to save it and re watch it whenever the chance of necessity appears itself. Also thank you SO much for the channel! In my country there isn't a lot we have on this topic and games are usually pursued as a primitive time consumer rather than new form of conceptual engagement with very little limitations to it's use.

[@winterx2348]

My game is at this stage right now, I'm happy to see I'm on the right track! :) I present the prototype to my school's game dev club this Friday and with any luck, they'll back me and we'll work on it for a debut at PAX Prime. If you guys are there this year, please check out the Lake Washington Tech booth!

[@lilybugged]

Lucky :( I wish we had a game dev club. We do have an annual technology fair, though. I've entered the game design category and will be presenting in a few days :D

[@x54xHantamachine]

My school has a game dev club (it better, I'm majoring in game design!), but we never get opportunities like PAX participation :o Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

[@youtoober2013]

@Winter X How did it go? How did your game do?

[@crizkenhd9394]

@@youtoober2013 he is a millionaire now

[@margothutton]

I do love translating these lessons into how to be a better novelist. Cuz that's what I do. This is a really tough question for writers: how to engage a reader fast and keep them hooked. The mechanics are really in the characters, and opening scene. For a high fantasy novelist, the world you create will be a hook, but it's very difficult to open with that. This is actually really good advice even translated. "Don't have too many mechanics because you won't know what's working" becomes "know what feature about your character is the one that makes a reader want to know more." Thanks EC!

[@Thenextworldwar]

So basically, the designer(s) need to figure out what the absolute core of the game is, and figure out if those elements work well and are enjoyable? So, a game like Steel Battalion (one of the few mech combat games I really enjoy) would have an MVP that consists of: - The movement mechanics - A flat, empty square of terrain - A basic weapon - An enemy to shoot (Who could be an enormous cube for all it matters) Testing the movement and basic combat. It needs to feel good to drive the VT and fight in it. 99% of the game can be boiled down to these elements. If these elements sucked, Steel Battalion would be awful, no matter what else it had. Do I have the concept?

[@AlbertBalbastreMorte]

+Thenextworldwar yup.

[@Thenextworldwar]

List of things I would need to be able to do extremely well to make a game: - Model - Animate - Program - Write a tolerable story - Compose music ...well, good luck with all video-game related endeavors, indie devs of the world! I'll be off... doing something else.

[@Doci007]

If you want to make a game and keep it as simple as possible, you dont even need to model or animate anything! For exemple, in Unity, you can create objects with only the basic shapes such as cubes, flat surfaces or spheres. Try making a game with only basic shapes, and add sprites, textures, models or even sounds only afterwards, when you have the base gameplay mechanics established. Even bigger game developper, such as Playtonic who is developing Yooka Laylee, start by making a basic cube moving around until it feels good. Only after do they add the models and animations to the object.

[@orngjce223]

I am not sure how to help with the other things, but the music thing is a solved problem. Search "[type of music or mood you are looking for] creative commons music". "Creative commons" means that you are legally allowed to download and use it, as long as you put the composer/musician/band's name in the credits, release your game for free, and say that your game is also creative commons. There's a lot more nuance to it than that, but you don't really need to learn more until you start thinking about money.

[@Doci007]

Elaine Wang Very interesting. I should take note of this somewhere...

[@Nazareadain]

I've been doing this though not with that name. I've just had a list of priorities and just draw the line at the mechanic (and sometimes related content to give that mechanic something to actually interact with), and just see everything else as icing on the cake. So useful to just grasp the scope, anyway.

[@AliDaoudi]

The art team's concepts are getting smarter and smarter, well done!

[@xXIxidor92Xx]

I just wanted to thank you guys for putting out this series of videos. Over the last few years, I've been attending college with the hope of eventually making video games, but starting a project all on my own just seemed too much without any prior knowledge. Because you released this series though, I finally have a starting place, somewhere I can actually see and begin work. So thank you guys, for all you do

[@danielb5917]

The art in this episode was really good. I like how you takes things literally in art, like a "strong one" ... a one with muscles. :)

[@AndrewKieran]

You know, I don't make games, and I have no intention of making games, but I keep watching these videos because so many of the lessons are applicable across a broad spectrum of design fields. Very nice work folks

[@darkshadowsx5949]

my first somewhat finished game was a card game a friend made up took about a week to get a working prototype in visual basic. I never put in the actual card data he made up in. I just made it random values when you loaded it up to test it. still it was pretty minimal yet playable. also before that when learning C++ i started making a Turn Based Strategy game. it was made of entirely of text characters and ran in command prompt. all i got done was a working map and movement system. i had a battle system but it was still a separate piece of code. but learning to do just that was awesome and rewarding in its own way. i still go back to from time to time to see if i can improve the code or add something. it started at over 4000 lines and i shrunk it down to around 1000 and it does the exact same thing visually... shows a lot of improvement. These days i keep getting stuck on "the big idea" and its a pain to even look at the IDE, or engine... starting small again on a side project should help. if i can get past the IDE anxiety....

[@Glitch_Man42]

I feel that there needs to be an entire episode on JRPG menu combat, with examples of good and bad executions.

[@_JPkun]

Late reply, but a channel named Design Doc made a video about this, turn based combat.

[@AnthanKrufix]

Fighting Game being listed as on the upper end of difficulty to make a fun and engaging Minimum Viable Product. Divekick's all like "screw that lol!"

[@Tazer_Fish]

Not really, the problem with fighting games is that you can't just have two grey blobs do something when you press one of two buttons, since there is no difference in the actions these samples perform there is nothing you can learn from

[@Tsagan]

i think you are selling dive kick short, it is quite complex to make a 2 button fighting game engaging

[@Teneban]

Yeah I was kinda surprised as well to see it that high on the list. I'm in computer science as well and one of the possible choices of subjects for this term's project was to make a fighting game : we have less than 2 months to do it and we can pretty much only work on the week ends. We only have to code one character with 6 moves (standing/crouching/jumping punch/kick). Then again what do I know, I chose something even simpler lmao

[@metalridleyz]

Mindgame between players is one of the most complex aspect to be develop, so nope, Divekick actually should've been tested way more times other would be expected, before going on the finished product.

[@fwg1994]

Divekick basically is the minimum viable product for a fighting game. Take away all but one character, or maybe two, so you get an idea of what the differences between characters are. Then look how complex that game actually is, and compare it to a prototype you could throw together in a day or two, and that should give you an idea of the difference in complexity for minimum viable products. Fighting games are about a complex interaction of moves and countermoves, where it is, at a high level, more of a strategy game comparable to an rts than it to an action style game. Creating the depth to allow the formulation of a plan of attack as well as a counter to any possible one that is engaging and balanced is really difficult, and absolutely necessary for the minimum viable fighting game. Not too many other genres need that depth of play as a core aspect.

[@frankdb9262]

Hey, guys! I just wanted to tell the Extra Credits team that I love your show! I share a lot of your opinions, but I was never able to adequately elocute my subjective impulses. You guys give me the vocabulary I need to deconstruct the games that I play. I also am an amateur programmer and writer, and your current "Making Your First Game" series as well as Design Club have helped me greatly. Keep up the good work!

[@DoubIeRose]

I like how totalbiscuit spelled extracreditz wrong, and attributed the whole team to the actions of James

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Might I recommend putting these in a playlist? I've put all the Making a first game videos into one for myself and I threw in "The Preproduction Problem" as well.

[@ghesus4852]

A top down shooter can be easy to make if you don't add lots of extra code or if you just add a player and enemy mechanic with simple pixel art

[@morganblackpowder1724]

3 years and 2 video games later. I still watch this before I start... Thanks James, Dan, and Co.

[@ziuber18]

7:10 - Boy, that escalated quickly!

[@SauliusTheBlack]

This is really an awesome series. As one who is creating a game in his free time(how little I have of it in any case) this is actually really encouraging. I'm building a text/menu-based RPG for the moment, getting the underlying code right, and afterwards building a GUI(first 2D, then 3D) for it. Your episodes do help me not to get ahead of myself(magic RPG with 1 spell at the moment :-) )

[@josephattwell1006]

Here is a great example of the power of prototypes: Undertale. Before Flowey, before Sans, before ANYTHING was developed (well, except for one song the developer had made and reused for... a certain boss fight), the developer Toby Fox made a simple prototype of the combat system. A box, the heart, and a few white "friendlieness pellets" to dodge. So, instead of Undertale being stuck with the static JRPG turn based combat system of it's inspiration (Earthbound and the Mother series), it's bullet hell gameplay was both engaging, and could make every single encounter truly feel unique.

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

6:34 Hahaha thank you for alerting once again, i had already forgotten that and was thinking in colors and textures.

[@deltahedron]

I just love how this series started just as my friends and I started making a game :D Thank you for your insight!

[@Aleteos]

This might just be one of my, if not the, favorite episode(s) so far.

[@obviousreferee3664]

My first prototype was one level with a block jumping and I turned that into a challenging platformer with 3 levels

[@andrewcurrie7482]

you guys deserve way more credit than you get, what you guys do is amazing, you make learning about creating a game interesting and your videos always drag me in P.S plz make more Extra History videos im really into those

[@arthur5552]

has James apologised to totalbiscuit yet?

[@TheCookiezPlz]

What for, exactly?

[@AnthonyLongboarding]

hmm?

[@prgnify]

TheCookiezPlz This: www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1skam53 Btw, I know nothing of the topic, and thus am not taking sides or whatnot. Just here to explain arthur's reference.

[@aaronman4772]

Why even bring that up unless you want to stir up trouble? What does this have to do with minimum viable product?

[@BulletsDontLieIOS]

I dont think he needs ro apologise just make a statment.

[@MylaMinoki]

so I'm working on my first game and its a JRPG, using rpgmaker VX Ace, i started working on it about 3 weeks ago and AM FLOORED that my idea for a tutorial level at the very beginning of the game was the first part i worked on. I was already working on my MVP without even realizing it. The only thing i don't need to work on now is the opening cut-scene. I can fill in several combat skills and a few enemy types without cluttering up the game. Thank you extra credits for giving me more confidence in my work and telling me I'm on the right track. Hope to have a demo out in the next few weeks. You guys are awesome.

[@guinunez]

Hi, I've just translated this episode to Spanish. How can I send you the subtitles?

[@miadevs6044]

Thanks 😘😘

[@LucisEntropy]

"Cut & Cut & Cut" and those three HM01-Discs... made my day! :D

[@ivogerginov5210]

First of all, sry for posting an oftopic comment but i felt this had to be said here... Ok, ive been through the comment section a lot and i have noticed that there is a lot of talk about what James said about TB and Gamergate and seriously - cut it out. This channel is more about the technicality of gaming(expecialy this 3 or 4 parter, wherever it goes) and rarely about politics. Even if it is about politics the team tries to be objective about as many topics as possible and very rarely do they go on to complain or rant about a given event. If james feels he has to do a statement he will. If his statement was based on misinformation then so be it the Interwebs can do that as well, if its from malcontent for TB then so be it james has the right to his opinion. Gamergate imo is stupid and outdated and as EC themselves often say- our medium is evolving. And quite frankly so should we. I've been watching both EC and TB long enough to know that both channels are beeing run by good people who care for this medium. I say just let it go and go on with your lives. Theres no need to stick to every word that spawns controversy of any sort. Because the most common case is that the community turns little sparks like this into big fires that take months to kill. Just enjoy your games, enjoy both channels and whatever both sides have to offer you and ejoy life.

[@ivogerginov5210]

P.S. I know EC talks about more than just the technicalities in gaming and game design but that is the portion of their content that i enjoy the most

[@CrazyRiverOtter]

Say, you seem like you know a reasonable bit of this, unlike the rest of the commenters. What exactly sparked this controversy? I just keep hearing poorly-worded metaphor when people try to explain it.

[@agentzap]

***** idk, some panel james was at

[@ivogerginov5210]

James loves gaming and im not the one to play the devils advocate here but judging by the way he talked about it I would say that he had nearly no idea what he was talking about. The thing is that he hasn't even been following up on the whole gamergate thing and simply tried to give a worthwhile answer. Im not justifying what he said about TB um just being objective about it. I love both channels and I would like this to gloss over as quickly as possible because these are the type of things that hold the medium back. I realy hope they get over it because i can just see the next gaming news report on fox talking about how "big names in gaming at eachothers throats...this is the results of violent games...save the children" etc. etc. etc.

[@elliott20]

Ivo Gerginov This is probably why we haven't seen an EC ep on GG, and this was basically an comment he made offhand that spiraled out of control. Honestly, this whole thing is NOT worth the ink.

[@alecpanic]

The last couple videos really inspired me set the scope and workflow during the last global game jam. It was only the second game I ever made/help make and it was in a team of 4 so I didn't do most of the programming or asset making, but I somehow fell into the roll of team lead/lead developer and my teammates were impressed on how I balanced feature implementation and overall scope of the game so it never got out of hand during the 48 hours, in which I can't help but thank you guys

[@boyfriendkisser]

Could you make an episode on point and click adventure games?

[@lauraerwin471]

I love this series I'm designing products right now and the concept of minimum viable product and starting small is so helpful. It's easy to get caught up in features but if the object is not completing it's primary function it's not good.

[@The_gaming_archaeologist]

Sadly most of the game concepts I have that I want to make a reality are RTS...generally games similar to Dungeon Keeper in certain mechanics, but I also have a few other ideas on the easier scale and I certainly wasn't thinking of the dream game ideas to be my starting point for the reasons given in an earlier vid.

[@roamspida4951]

for some reason you give me "escaping the prison" vibes and stuff from that series. also, these are very useful to me.

[@harpyeagle3583]

It's 1:43 am and I randomly decided "I'm going to make a game" and here i am.

[@fultonearheart867]

How's that game going?

[@powercrash7411]

Ive been thinking of these more elaborate games where you experience it to be attached to the character and honestly this helps me scope down to smaller projects i have thought about as dumb ideas like a pencil museum. this is going to be a fun fun ride.

[@Jesticutioner]

most viable product is da real MVP ;)

[@Zadamanim]

+The Gaming Questers minimum*

[@miinintapple]

Oh I get it! That's funny M8!

[@nonsudunk]

GET OUT!!! hahaha

[@enochtsang1517]

Thanks guys, I'm in the process of making my first game right now. You're guide on prototyping is awesome, I had all the questions you brought up in the video and now I know how to move forward to make a prototype, thanks you!

[@gokunorris5351]

You guys are really awsome this video helped me out a TON.

[@serdarcs3373]

Goku Norris Same. GL with your game buddy.

[@guidofalconi1178]

I run a small marketing agency and often we get people coming to us with an idea for an app they need help developing. They always have in mind what it’ll look like, what it’ll do, all the different features, etc. Were I anybody else I would just take their money and develop their untested app right away, but I’m much nicer than that. The idea of a minimum viable product and user journeys are foreign to them because they’ve seen apps like Uber and Lyft, but like those apps started as a prototype with minimum features and it’s hard for them to understand that sometimes. From now on I should make my clients watch this video at the beginning of the developing phase. Lol

[@emsilly741]

0:51 I don't feel so good mr designer...

[@tacticalblank8045]

Thanks EC! This miniseries has actually been really helpful. I have been trying to make games for a while, but all of my projects have fallen short. Hopefully I can actually finish something for once.

[@jamcdonald120]

networking/multiplayer is easy... if you already have a solid understanding of OOP and Socket programming and c++.... er, nvm, networking hard

[@mraaronjosephbonnici]

Thank you for your videos! Breaking down tasks and creating a raw, simple prototype with blocks and basic movements and rudimentary hazards has made beginning so much more simpler! Who needs art! at least at the start anyway.....

[@imienazwisko6527]

Minecraft started from block placing simulator with 1 kind of block, that you can break and place. That's to much for first game.

[@ComradeDiana]

Well, it wasn't his first game...

[@tanan8116]

Król Cieni That actually isn't. The only problem with it is that you need to make a 3D engine for that...

[@edmanbosch7443]

You don't need to make one, you can just download a pre-built 3d game engine like Unity.

[@Overhazard]

Yeah, I mentioned it on the previous video, but it's going to be difficult to figure out what the minimum viable product for a pinball game should be. (I don't mean a virtual one, but a real, physical one.) Real-life pinball is an inherently ambitious thing due to the size of the machines and cannot be replicated on a smaller scale. If you don't know what I mean, look for a Shrek machine or a Family Guy machine near you on Pinball Map. They have a miniature table on the upper-right corner: Their physics are completely different from a full-size one, and thus they play nothing like the regular-size one. In addition, making a pinball machine is expensive, and startups rarely can afford to make test products that stay in-house and build up to their finished product; it's a wonder America's Most Haunted and The Big Lebowski got the praise that they did, considering they were both done by a tiny group in a garage (two people, in the case of The Big Lebowski), and to my knowledge, went straight to the finalized version when they started physically building the machines. I'm going to guess that having a virtual equivalent with no rules programmed in just yet and no art would be the case: The most important part, after all, is to make sure you can actually make the shots needed from the flippers. That being said, it's taken decades to make physics that are even remotely close to real-world pinball, and anyone attempting to make a pinball engine from scratch I'd deem as insane (but sometimes, insane enough to work, as with Zen Studios). There are a few programs out there that let you make custom pinball machines though, which most of these startups did. The part in the middle about adding content without a good foundation may be the reason behind a lot of bad pinball machines, such as The Rolling Stones (the Stern one), Hook, Flipper Football, and Mr. & Mrs. Pac-Man, games that function as they should but had gameplay flaws that should've been caught during alpha testing. That pinball needs all this content on every table is probably also the reason it's hard to find good criticism on pinball machines--people play them, and they like or they don't like them without really knowing why. They just say "I don't like A" or "This is so much better than B," and I can't glean much useful information on what people like and don't like when playing pinball. I also like how the game at 7:02 is left-handed.

[@extrahistory]

Figured out what your first game project will be? Here's how to make it manageable! #ExtraCredits

[@booey316]

Pedro Gusmão Well...Maybe the reason people say that the old JRPGs are the best is because they are. Not everyone likes a metric crap ton of complexity. people did genuinely enjoy the combat system. The old systems aren't bad just because they aren't your cup of tea.

[@rmsgrey]

Pedro Gusmão Actually, there is fun to be had from JRPG-style menu-driven turn-based combat, but it's not the routine combats that are fun, but rather solving the optimisation problem to make routine combats routine, and figuring out strategies that let you beat tough enemies. The trouble is that the incentive system is badly broken - the "reward" for solving the puzzle is for combats to become boring, so the better you are at the game, the less interesting it becomes... Of course, when the combat system is scaled so that you can't beat an enemy if you're a level too low, and can't be beaten if you're a level too high, then that's just plain bad...

[@booey316]

new doesn't mean good. my personal opinion is that the old JRPGs are better than most RPGs nowadways. I may just be an old crumudgin but I have always been a big fan of story and most of the RPGs today seem to drop the ball on that regard.

[@Dw7freak]

Pedro Gusmão 1: They should replace JRPG with console-style rpg on the list as that is the actual name of the genre that most refer to when talking about jrpgs. 2: Yes, what they say is 100% grade A nostalgic bullshit, but those simple combat systems worked back in the 90's because there were hardware limitations holding them back from grander battle scenes. Now they can add a lot more because there're no hard limits on the file's size. Square has always been expanding what they can do with the battle mechanics with the Final Fantasy series, each one adding something significant to the formula, and most of them are fine. If you compare that to the Dragon Quest series, it is bare bones in comparison, with almost nothing major added to the formula in the 30 years since the first released, instead focusing on what you can do to change the characters to make the simple system have more depth instead of more complex, like classes, added companions, and lots of grinding.

[@cyonemitsu]

as a person who is really invested in the RTS scene (also flight sims, lets not go there), I had a feeling it wouldn't be a viable first game XD

[@Fighter_Builder]

This video was really helpful for me! I'm actually making a first-person 1 vs. team strategy game about an evil AI in SPACE, but focusing on the core mechanics first really helped me find a good starting point!

[@danieladamczyk4024]

Like in home building, first make fundaments.

[@YossarianVanDriver]

Kinda funny, I'm doing a Games Design university course, so I've fairly recently started doing this whole "start with something simple, slowly get more complex with successive projects" approach, and...yeah. They're right. It works.

[@bobkingofseagulls9884]

That thumbnail is the cutest thing.

[@slavsquatgopnik2951]

You know, I'm not interested in making my own game but I know people who do so this information is really important considering those people don't really use the internet all that often and don't know what Extra Credits is. I thank thee Dan and crew for this useful information!

[@TheEvilVargon]

so, what i took from this video is something briefly mentioned in another video. Mechanics over content.

[@ArkitectHaizara]

Not really mechanics over content. But i think it is mechanics first content decond. Doesnt mean your game would be better off without content but that you have to build the content using the mechanics not the other way around.

[@TheEvilVargon]

A better phrase would have been *prioritize mechanics over content* but i was just quoting what they had said in a previous video (that has left my mind)

[@EldenAndelGames]

Its more, learn how to make a solid mechanic in a short span of time. In game design content does come second, but if you want a good game then you NEED to marry the two. Some of best gaming moments are when the two are married well, like the escape sequence in Metroid, or the final boss in FF6 and Earthbound.

[@Kareszkoma]

I started with an fps... and it goes excellent! I really love this. I never thought, that coding as work, and coding as pleasure could be this different.

[@broccolistew8454]

Tells people to not do RPGs by yourself one of the best RPGs gets made by one guy

[@thedarksleeve]

Undertale is actually an excellent example of this principle at work. Toby originally just made the battle system, the minimum viable product. When this was found to be engaging he made a more complete demo, when this sparked interest he made a full game. It's also worth noting that undertale abandons pretty much everything expected from the genre, including most of the things which make them such colossal production efforts: -It's short: ~6 hours vs the 40+ of most JRPGs. -No complex leveling and equipment systems. -Simple production values, besides the music which is Toby's specialty. -Small Map. The result is a game focusing on a single core engagement rather than huge scope. Which is exactly what this video is encouraging. Yes the story and jokes are wonderful, but they wouldn't have worked if the basic combat wasn't fun. In an interview with game informer Toby said something to effect of "The one thing I learned from my time messing with RPG maker is to limit scope. Most people set out to make an 80 hour final fantasy epic, which has never been achieved by a single person. I aimed for around 2-3 hours with undertale" He ended up making around 6 hours, resulting in the game being a year behind schedule. He probably did the biggest scope he could without it ballooning out of control.

[@jessicalee333]

As for Undertale, the original Kickstarter listed a team of _six_ people, and generally Temmie Chang is often talked about as a co-creator, for doing so much of the artwork. Stardew Valley on the other hand, does appear to have been made entirely by one person? Stardew Valley is the real exception to the scope discussion because... jeez you can do all kinds of stuff in that game, but it also took YEARS for one person to develop.

[@TheManFromWaco]

As strange as it might sound, this video has helped me with a graphic novel I'm working on. The story was getting wildly complex, with numerous themes, characters, and subplots tangling into knots. I realized I needed to cut it down to the "minimum viable story" and see if it worked at the most basic level. After doing that I've finally got the plot down to one sentence and can rebuild it from that base. So thanks, even if it has nothing to do with video games.

[@leinadlink]

EA: "WHAT?!? The content unnecesary?!?!? But that's the best part D:!!! The more content, more fun to be had from our trusty consumers by paying us "best value"!!!! And it doesn't matter how broken or bad designed is that content, you already paid for it anyways.... Don't listen to this guy programmers, if you wanna learn something work for us (free of charge.... or salary) and you'll be doing b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶e̶t̶ great games in no time :D!!!"

[@Anergyne]

They're not saying you shouldn't put content in your game that's not absolutely necessary. They're saying you should make a prototype with the absolute minimum first, test how that works, then build on that.

[@EvansRowan123]

Art Murder Not every criticism of a joke results from not understanding that there is a joke or what the joke is. If you're going to make a joke about how some stereotyped other would react to a statement, and you fundamentally misunderstand that statement and your joke only exists based on that failure, that is a problem with the joke, and pointing it out is completely different from complaining about the ridiculous elements of a joke that actually works.

[@Anergyne]

Rowan Evans Man, you put way more effort into justifying my criticism than I could ever be bothered to do. Thanks. :P

[@donkeykonggaming4993]

I get excited just by watching these videos. For my entire life I've been really passionate about video games, and I've always wanted to make a game. And now I'm finally going to do it!

[@TenaciousJ728]

I'm 1 year late to this video but even Splatoon seems to gone through the same treatment. With blocks of tofu shooting paint on surfaces and showing off paint splattering on surfaces, which the latter is something that continues to baffle me as a beginner in terms of pulling it off. Any idea how they made accumulated splattering work?

[@itsarchietime7863]

This is a fantastic series! The only suggestion I would make to this video, is instead of using, for example, blocks for your cars, go onto the many sprite sites and pull a sprite of a car from any game. Use this for your collisions accelerations and what not to help judge how your underlying codes working. You're certainly not going to have Square vehicles driving around, and pixel perfect collision or any other type of collision will be much different with unique sized or shaped objects. of course once you get a bit further, you can replace those sprites with your own art, but it gives you a good launching point.

[@RedBlueProductions1]

Minecraft was a perfect example of this! Look at some footage of the 0.0.0 version of the game and tell me that this is NOT an example of MVP

[@alexxv.1519]

Apart from the fact that a prototype of a 2D platformer is actually harder to make than a color matching puzzle prototype, really informative video good job!

[@victornaut]

The real... MVP...

[@ManuProduktions]

My suggestion for the next Extra History topic: King Ludwig II of Bavaria. His story is incredibly exciting and dramatic.

[@Prof3ssorWalnut]

Am I the only person who actually like JRPG combat systems

[@Javetts]

you're not alone. it's my favorite genre, but we've had a lot of weak entries in the past few years.

[@LianSirenia]

I do enjoy them as well, though weak mechanics are something that's kept me away from them for a while. The most recent one I really enjoyed was Radiant Historia, and that being because they married an enjoyable plot with very compelling mechanics (I haven't played Bravely Default though that seemed to get a positive reaction). I am however excited for the near future of JRPG's with things like KH3 and FFXV, though they are more action-JRPGs than the menu-based JRPGs we're usually talking about.

[@RPGtourguide]

Not at all. I know a great number of people who enjoy the combat in JRPG's.

[@wechselderg8438]

Javetts More like last decade :(

[@7chaoemerald]

Adventure's Infinity Give Persona 3 FES, Persona 4 (original or Golden), and Xenoblade Chronicles a shot. The former 2 are still traditional turn-based RPGs with the latter falling in some odd (but great) mix of ATB and an MMORPG engine (like Final Fantasy XII, but more refined). Also, I feel these 3 are standout titles because the story affected the gameplay as much or as little as you choose. For the former 2, Social Links increase your Persona capabilities, making your battle capabilities better. Persona 4's party members also get more versatile in battle the higher their Social Links with the Player Character too. In Xenoblade, the affinity system is amazing. The better your "friendship values", so to speak, are with someone, the better you perform together in battle, and there's a plethora of ways to raise affinity in this game. I'm sure Person 3 is on PSN now, Persona 4...unless you have a Vita, good luck trying to find a reasonably priced PS2 copy, and Xenoblade...just wait until April, it'll be out on the "new" 3DS then.

[@AegixDrakan]

As someone who makes RPGmaker games as a hobby, This is why I ALWAYS make the combat system first. Until I'm sure I've got a decent interlocking combat system that allows for engaging combat puzzles to be created, I barely proceed with anything else. This has served me pretty well.

[@PerryBattles]

Hahaha I've already taken on a western rpg... granted, it's a roguelike, but still... wish me luck!

[@TimSwast]

Neat to see some concrete examples for minimum viable product. It does feel like an art that takes practice. Certainly I have made mistakes here in my software projects, not just games, by trying to do too much at once. At the end, the list of genres in order of difficulty to implement matches my intuition as well.

[@JuiceBoxWizard]

So what I got out of this is: Practice by making Atari Games.

[@feralcrafter7043]

I've started a "How to program games" and I'm adding related links of Extra Credit to my comments. Love your work!

[@ChippyPippy]

Final Fantasy tactics was the best JRPG. I remember combat sequences better than I remember the story.

[@StardustWhip]

That's not a JRPG. That's a Tactical RPG.

[@ChippyPippy]

***** ah, my bad.

[@guilhermesfk]

Funny the story was what I mostly remember. Even though I was young I was baffled by the parallels between the plot and the development of christian mythology.

[@ChippyPippy]

Guilherme Sabino I didn't say I forgot the story line, but when I think back on the game the majority of memory/nostalgia is of the battles.

[@guilhermesfk]

***** Oh sorry, I did meant to say you were wrong in any way. Just *my* experience. Sorry, we can sometimes sound a little combative in text replies ^_^

[@android272]

Damn it I just realized the game I am making (my first) is all of the hardest games you presented. It is an Action Adventure, WRPG, RTS game... But based on the last video and this one I am already doing pretty well. Making it as small as I can and giving myself achievable goals that I think I can tackle.

[@PROJECTJoza100]

yea lol mine is a platformer action adventure..

[@Nathansansfrontieres]

How would you rank turn-based strategy games (like FFT or Disgaea?) in terms of difficulty

[@LianSirenia]

I imagine that those wouldn't be too bad to make a minimum viable product for, just a dot that can move across a grid and execute a basic attack against another dot.

[@guilhermesfk]

I'd say those examples are Turb based RPG's not strategy games. Turn Based Strategy invoques something more akin to Civilization, Battle Isle and the such

[@cshahbazi1220]

I think perhaps on the level between 2D and 3D platformer, since you don't have much to do in realtime which makes coding just way easier. It will need a sophisticated AI though.

[@LianSirenia]

Art Murder Mechanically speaking, they are very similar from the outset, the big difference being one is usually side A vs side B without a movement mechanic while the other introduces traversal across a plane (or grid, if you will). Obviously they spiral into completely different games, especially when you add the content.

[@LoliconSamalik]

When you think about it, a game like Fire Emblem would probably be one above or below a fighting game. you have tactical consideration to take into which is a step or two above fighting games. Chess aside.

[@fabianosoriani]

Dang! Possibly the best video lesson in general to learn how to make skinny prototypes! MVP is a bit of a stretch of reality tho

[@whiteshampoodev]

please make a little platform where we can show our first attemps ;)

[@the_Falcon_fall]

I just found this channel and it was like "...by the holy beard of the dungeon magician" this is THE place!

[@allergictosanity]

Am I the only child that doesn't get bored from this?

[@leodavee7392]

nope

[@ChrisD__]

Geo Logic Nope. We're some of the few.

[@tinataylor2128]

Geo Logic ^-^

[@jacobmello4950]

Geo Logic no

[@AquaAustic]

Geo Logic nope :3

[@Squidwidge]

These guys should be like 3 times as popular as they are right now.