Batman, The Killing Joke, READ MOORE COMIX

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[@8slowens]

Moore gave an interview where he seemingly denied Morrison's theory: "...for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation." Of course this could just be Moore messing with Morrison, whom he hates. Either way, I agree with you guys that every readers personal interpretation is just as valid.

[@kekzilla6669]

Taking Morrison's preferred interpretation requires reading the scene by an appeal to ignorance argument; by strained innuendo and projection; by regarding denouement panels in isolation of the preceding story and misrepresenting them as climax ludicrously occurring as an off-panel afterthought, thematically inconsistent with Batman's dialogue in pages immediately prior, inconsistent with Batman's character both historically and within the context of this story wherein he remains perfectly lucid throughout and sympathetically offers Joker an olive branch two pages earlier. Dedicate the same intense scrutiny to Batman's placcid demeanor in those panels two pages earlier and it's impossible to explain how that jives with Morrison's fanciful hypothesis. Against all of that, the projecting reader's dramatic assertion is that Batman does a 180° heel turn off-panel, moral code instantaneously snapping, manifesting superhuman strength to allegedly throttle a man one-handed with neither party showing evidence of physical strain, betraying his longstanding personal code against killing and his promise to Gordon -- and this pivotol murderous event conveniently occurs off of the printed page... 😑 Kind reader: Perhaps you should admit yourself to Arkham to get your head examined! And with that remark we are reminded why Morrison's eye imagines the scene playing out in his asserted manner: he's distorting it through the post hoc lens of his own crazed Batman depiction in "Arkham Asylum", written years later. That is the Batmaniac who would strangle the Joker.

[@wk3820]

Personally, I have always read it as Moore claims he intended and, frankly, I think any of the other interpretations rob power and depth from the ending. It contains such overwhelming fatalism, with two men imprisoned by fate taking a moment to laugh simply because they can do nothing else. While the Morrison theory potentially provides more emotional satisfaction for the reader, the intentional absence of it is one of the points of Moore's ending, because this story is a tragedy above all.

[@8slowens]

Michael Avolio I would generally agree with you about Moore bot being so petty. I think what happened here is Morrison’s theory irked Moore and he had to publicly say something to counter it. I don’t believe he was even specifically asked about the ending

[@richdannys2906]

I've always felt that Bolland's story contribution to BATMAN #400 was something of a trial balloon or test run on how he eventually handled the art chores on The Killing Joke. Granted, Ras Al-Ghul was the villain in that one, rather than Joker. But a bunch of the neat Batcave stuff that Tom talks about, was already worked out in this short story bit, from 2 years prior to Killing Joke. Plus, #400 had a kickass story segment from Sienkiewicz, along with his stellar cover art.

[@WillCHensley]

Small Thing: In addition to the laughter stopping, the beam of light from the cop car (reflected in the puddles) gets shut off; this mirrors the joke of “you’d shut it off when o was half-way across” Love You Guys! Keep at it!

[@thecomiccats4056]

I agree. The content of the joke is part of what makes it the killing joke. The light going out is reflected by both the lights going out in the puddle and the content of the joke. Joker is like, "It takes two for this game to work, Batsy." And I guess that is gets under Batman's skin. So he shuts the light off.

[@JimMahfood]

The Bowie comparison really blew my mind. Never caught that before. You guys are crushin it!

[@thriddoctor]

The title comes from the British goth band The Killing Joke (check them out they are great). I've read Moore's original script to The Killing Joke and there is no reference to Batman killing The Joker. It just says that they are laughing hysterically and leaning on one another for support. It's just the moment when they both realize how insane and hopeless the situation is.

[@officegossip]

Tom can really dissect a comic like no other person. Really makes you appreciate the stuff you enjoy even more.

[@jokoney9318]

I love the original colours, it showcases The Jokers madness in my opinion.

[@mrdrfly8336]

Bolland took a year or longer to do this book. and it shows....

[@teddybeer6206]

The original coloring made this feel like a Joker story and the recoloring felt like a Batman story.

[@SBrundle]

Alan Moore: “ My intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway.”

[@elconquistador364]

Another top notch analysis. The Morrison interpretation where the laughter stops.hence, "KILLING JOKE". Seems so obvious yet never occured to me. This came out when I was 13,14,right before the movie and what struck me about it then was the sheer cinematic feeling it has due to those transitions and the polished artwork

[@timetraveleer]

This little detail flew by me when I was a kid in 1987 and read this for the first time, but now, as a dad, I've got to wonder... Pre-Joker's wife died from an accident with a baby-bottle heater? That... doesn't really make any sense. I mean, she was pregnant. She might already have one of those, but she'd have no reason to use it. The baby isn't out yet. I know, I know, the policeman says "testing a baby-bottle heater" and "there was an electrical short," but it strikes me as an odd thing for a pregnant woman to be doing at all. She's still got time, after all, before the baby's due. Anyway, this blew me away at the time and made me a lifelong Brian Bolland fan (I already loved Moore for his other DC work), whom I only really knew as a phenomenal cover artist by then. I spent a lot of my youth trying to emulate his style. Now I'm a bit more focused on story than art when I read this, and rereading this story again gives me a vague feeling of claustrophobia, like Gotham City is this place eternally stuck in an indefinable moment in the past, and you just can't get out of it. It's dark and oppressive, and appealed to me as a teenager for that reason, but today not for the same reasons. I still love it, but my reasons for loving it have changed. I appreciate it more for the storytelling and artistic skill so evidently on display. But unlike my teenage self, I'd rather not stay long in this Gotham City.

[@natewatson6962]

I really just love looking at all the essentials you have over to the left. such an incredible line.

[@cookiemadison8529]

The sequence with the guard outside of the joker's cell just blows me away. The detail of that key ring on his belt, the shadow across his face... just incredible. It reminds me of a Norman Rockwell illustration in the guard's attitudes. So, so good

[@cookiemadison8529]

And can I say, I never took this book as "canon" and always assumed it ended with Batman killing Joker. Feel like I'm in good company with Grant Morrison

[@kamikawakak]

I always thought this was an non canon story, even when I first read it when it came out. I always assume Batman killed Joker, and it being called “The Killing Joke” was an overt title stating that. I assumed everyone thought that, I’m shocked that is not the mainstream interpretation.

[@theswan1852]

That is so cool that this is supposed to be the last pre-crisis Batman story.

[@ryanbourke2551]

I love these Alan Moore book clubs. Please keep them coming. I always took the killing Joke's titles as a reference to their relationship. Batman throughout the story tries his best to rehabilitate the joker, aware that if they don't do something soon, this fight will go on forever. The joke at the end cements for Batman that their relationship as hero and villain will keep on going. Batman understands that the Joker cant be changed. The ending is deliberately ambiguous so it cant be read a couple of different ways.

[@michaelblaine6494]

In all these years I never realized Batman hands Gordon a wig amd that it was the punchline to the hair on his head line,I always thought he was just holding the guy by his head. I would’ve continued to think that if I hadn’t seen this

[@danmcdaid8608]

I always hated the Grant Morrison theory about the ending... but Tom is right: without that ending, what does the title mean? And as it was meant to be the “final” Batman Story... Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I never noticed Joker teaching up to shake Batman’s hand before. Maybe Joker kills him first? Maybe they kill each other? Great video

[@presteign99]

Could Morrison have his theory backwards and the Joker killed Batman? That last page when they're laughing together you can see the Joker's hand in silhouette that was a similar composition to when he shook hands with and poisoned the carnival owner. Maybe Batman is laughing because he's been poisoned too?

[@Captain_MonsterFart]

Wow!

[@kekzilla6669]

Perhaps they killed each other simultaneously, fulfilling Batman's prophecy about their mutual path. 🙄

[@retrotard9875]

I am pretty sure the point is that either one of them could have died been killed or maybe they friggin killed each other, its up to the reader, one of the many ways the story loops on itself like when batman is saying in the beginning how one of them will kill the other... It is an inevitability

[@albuquerqueraider2052]

I never thought about it but... he looks perfectly like the Joker there. Wow, David Bowie, Ziggy Stardust is a good match there with that suit. Great observation guys.

[@scherem]

Would love you to revisit this and talk about the Bolland colouring.

[@flockofsmeagol9519]

Thems ain’t shrimps they’re crawfish

[@bigstefan]

excellent stuff. Bolland is not human. His work took my head off when I first saw it and still does to this day. It's so super-realistic as to be surreal. Real shame he retired. I love him but he's enough to put you off ever trying to draw comics - I'd look at Ezquerra and Bisley, say, and even though they're super-talented you can kind of see how they're putting it together, it looks achievable. If you wanted to draw like Bolland though, where would you even start? I was surprised to find out he was an early adopter of digital drawing - flipping the canvas so he'd find particular lines easier to draw, shows he's human after all I guess. Knockabout published a compendium of his more obscure work called Bolland Strips - it's worth getting hold of. His Actress and The Bishop strips are drawn in his super-clean realistic style, but there are some others (autobiographical strips and a character called Mr Mamoulian) which are drawn in a quicker, sketchier style - they look really good but you'd never know it's him. Nice to see as they show that aside from making pristine art, he still really loves comics and knows how to cartoon.

[@CyborgHorse]

Another interesting anecdote about its influence on the movie, the back cover playing card illustration is the shoulder patch on the goon jackets. Bolland art actually appears in the film!

[@lizardart99]

Man I'm so glad I snagged a copy of this from my library sale section. This book is such a nice tribute to joker, Batman and their silver age!

[@Jason-ql7wb]

Best week of Kayfabe yet, thank you. I'm watching more Kayfabe than Netflix!

[@ZacharyCallen]

Wait wait wait so given the joy buzzer, Joker's extended hand in those final panels, and the cut off of all sound - did Joker get Batman too?

[@paulocosta4744]

I only started reading comics in English on a regular basis in 1998, as I grew up reading comics in my native language. So I've read many in two different languages. Usually, the translation changes details, like the story mood and the characters' personalities. But here, it was a testament to Alan Moore's writing that The Killing Joke was true to itself even after translation.

[@TheTonyFigueroa]

If you're interested in John Higgins' work read his six issue "World Without End" limited series written by Jaime Delano. It's excellent work.

[@justinmicallef9861]

Have you guys seen Julian Darius from Sequart's analysis? Expands on the Morrison theory and the specific murder weapon, tying into the rain symbolism that book ends the piece.

[@noobslayer135]

You guys are quickly becoming one of my favorite channels, keep up the great work!

[@damnyouhussies]

This content is Amazing please keep making it. I’ve been going through a lot of rough times and being reminded of how great these books are and how fun it is to unpack and examine them is revitalising. Thankyou

[@Revere71]

SWEET! You have Top 10 on the table!

[@ericadler9680]

Not only Penguin is under-used in the Batman comics, such an interesting character as Scarecrow is as well, as is Harvey Dent.

[@MattHall]

I never heard that Grant Morrison theory, but that is also how I always read those last panels.

[@xavigolden8287]

I always thought that the "imaginary story" bit in whatever happened to the man of tomorrow was a callback to those old silver age world's finest stories. (I feel bad that this is my only comment on a great vid)

[@peterlinfield]

I can't wait to hear you two talk about future Moore titles. This was such a fantastic deep dive and your knowledge and expertise shines through. I feel like this discussion has already made me a more observant, attentive reader. Thanks!

[@rydowyt]

Another homerun. These Alan Moore videos have been great so far, always looking forward to what you guys do next. Spoilers, Tom let it slip around the 16 minute mark: sounds like we’re getting some Sandman content soon, can’t wait for that.

[@retrotard9875]

And v for vendetta hopefully

[@ballpointpress]

Rappaport's character in True Romance survives the shootout and runs away. He might have gotten off completely scott free and gone on to do his TJ Hooker spot. As for Killing Joke, I think the artwork has never been topped in any Batman book since. It's not the greatest comics story, but it's really a great use of the medium. I think I prefer the original colours for sure. Made the mistake of giving my original copy away when I bought the remastered hardcover. Opened it up to compare while watching this video. The original has all kinds of emotion and storytelling in the colours. The new colours mostly flatten that out.

[@50caliber29]

Have or will you talk about the Captain Britain, Jim Jaspers, Fury series. One of my all time favourite books, dream team of Moore & Davis. The Fury is my all time favourite foe, not evil just a pure focused unrelenting weapon.

[@couchcoopfragfun7053]

Just started watching you’re channel, this video and the darkknight returns review video are just amazing. You Guy’s really dissect these comics 👌👍

[@pbgauthier5487]

Wow i never knew there was an other interpretation of the end except Joker getting killed by Batman. I thought it was pretty straightforward

[@harrywillmott958]

‘That shit ain’t red’

[@jrodriguez6]

I love this channel so much. Thanks for all the fantastic work you guys do.And please keep Tom popping up as regularly as you can, I really dig his analyses and interpretation. I just can't wait until you get to some Swamp Thing material. I'd die if you cover the issue where the Thing and Abby have sex via some hallucinogenic fruit that grows out of the Thing's back.

[@wk3820]

That was the story which caused the CCA stamp to come off the first time, wasn't it? In a way, it makes it the moment of conception for the later Vertigo.

[@PyroNexus22]

They should put the "He's at his Mooriest" quote on the cover of new publications

[@dabunnyman9133]

Could you do coverage of the "Anything Goes" mini series? It had a great Moore story looking at the current comic scene but there was just so much more great stuff from so many artists and writers.

[@CartoonistKayfabe]

Pictopia! Great Alan Moore story with "Dandy" Don Simpson on the wheels of steel. We'll get there.

[@paulatreides585]

Good stuff exactly what I've been looking for

[@violencehero]

The final page is incredible. Are there any other comics with an ending so open to interpretation?

[@PunkerMike]

Such a great episode!!

[@RicoRenzi]

Jason Aaron and Pearson did a really good little Penguin one-shot, keep an eye out for it in the bins

[@willpfeifer3312]

Mind blown.

[@finnsterling6514]

38:20 By violated, do you mean "r a p e d?" She very likely was, seeing as how it is a recurring incident in 90% of Moore's work.

[@jeremydaniels4921]

New set looks great!

[@sebastianb.1926]

To me the pre-Joker Joker looks like Alan Cumming.

[@bolunixan]

Great stuff, you guy's didnt mention the 0801 number on jokers prison door which supposedly means HA

[@mohefsociety]

Tom Scioli naked Green Arrow?

[@brianjong8945]

In comedy “killing” is referred to as getting a laugh out of the audience, in this case the Killing Joke is the joke told at the end, it’s the laugh that the Joker finally got out of Batman. Nothing Moore to it.

[@incubustimelord5947]

Alan Moore is the greatest comic book writer of all time. The only other comic book writer that rivals him is Frank Miller. Batman: The Killing Joke is the greatest Joker story ever told and, for a quite some time, the last Batgirl story. It's the second best Batman graphic novel after Frank Miller's best work, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which is the greatest Batman graphic novel of all time. Batman: Year One is the third best Batman graphic novel ever, and Frank Miller's second best work. Alan Moore's best work, Watchmen is the best comic book super-hero graphic novel ever. There has yet to be anyone who can match them, and there has yet to be any other graphic novels that can even come close to being as influential as those. They set the standard for the way that comic books, graphic novels and super-hero characters are made today.

[@retrotard9875]

Hey so "the killing joke" is obviously an allegory for the relationship between batman and joker, the two crazies from the asylum representing batman and the joker... Batman jumps to freedom in the joke and tries to save the joker of his insanity with a flashlight... Not realizing that he would have to kill him to set him free from his insanity, but what batman doesnt get is that he is just as insane as the joker and only thinks he is free of the asylum. Am i missing any thing major here or do i just not fully understand moore's genius?????

[@retrotard9875]

Joker embraces his insanity while batman stupidly thinks his craziness is justified just because he refuses to take a life, which is almost MORE insane

[@jimastro67]

Thanks for going into this comic. I was always a little ..mehhh.. about the story. Your take on the distorted memories of Jokers backstory was insightful. I have to say I always recall being mad at the end of the book because I thought the killing of someone by Batman was so out of character especially that in 1 night Batman could go from normal to a murderer.

[@lukefreeman2604]

The second and third last panels with the falling rain and the reflection of the light look like "a line being crossed", which adds to Morrison's interpretation of the scene.

[@capes_and_tights]

to me it is related to the joke itself, the light is removed therefore joker falls

[@lukefreeman2604]

@@capes_and_tights Yeah, I thought about that afterwards and that sounds better. I think you're right.

[@Chance0]

I've only read the updated color version. I think the original colors look way better

[@lastamericanhero59]

The first time I read my first comic I'm sure neither of you two were even alive.