Battle of Belief

[@alexduta7469]

"Space man literally too angry to die."

[@The_Attack_of_Geek]

That maul This is "space man too ugly to die"

[@clydejones6900]

U KNOW NOTHING OF THE PAIN

[@DukeDudeson]

I can relate to that.

[@troo_6656]

To all people who didn't play this game the player actualy responds to Sion. It is not just Sion talking for a few minutes.

[@airstrike9002]

Hadn't played this game in a few years and i just stood here thinking 'I don't remember him talking that long?'

[@brianbrush5107]

100th like Thanks for clarifying

[@HeWhoLaugths]

I thought the camera was just really awkwardly placed 😆

[@iratepirate3896]

"You seek to erode my will! You will not succeed!" *Sion's will has dropped*

[@Siegberg91]

Saying something does not make it true.

[@jimhuffman9434]

Sion: "Damn it"

[@mattlee4618]

You’re in his head!

[@anodyne5368]

Aww you are beautiful too Darth Sion. ❤

[@YGODueltainer]

Lies!! -anakin the sand hater

[@torrinmcgeehicks8698]

Mabye he doesn't just sleep with vibroblades

[@MichelRD-hl8bf]

How do you watch videos on youtube when you're blind? 😂

[@nathanielwestermann]

lmao this is so cute

[@MrGabilonia]

"i hate you because you are beautiful to me. and in that weakness lies death" me at every first (last) date

[@bthy384]

Is it the last because you killed your date?

[@MrGabilonia]

@@bthy384 i just murdered my possibilities of getting a second xD

[@jimcracketowens5319]

I’m keeping this chain for a joke later.

[@bthy384]

@@MrGabilonia Ah, that's unfortunate. If you were literal I have a 2 for one deal on barrels of lye

[@CD-Freedom]

Is he talking about a weakness in himself and that if he gives into it he will die?

[@1080lights]

"I hate you because you are beautiful to me, and in that weakness lies death" -Darth Sion, Simp Lord

[@jackmeisel1608]

"It is not possible to walk away from such things unscarred, to keep living when the universe dies around you..." it's my single favorite quote from Sion and I think it's because it made me realize the motif of trauma. Most major characters in KOTOR II experience an extremely traumatic event in their lifetime. Hanharr can't handle owing a lifedebt to Mira and goes insane. Bao-Dur still feels immense guilt over his activation of the Mass Shadow Generator. Same with Atton and his guilt over being an assassin. Sion was defeated in battle, literally dying. Visas had her planet destroyed by Nihilus, who in turn was murdered by the Mass Shadow Generator. Kreia was exiled and eventually betrayed by her sith apprentices. Even though G0-T0 is a droid, his purpose is to fix the mass trauma of an entire civilization. Lastly, Meetra Surik (or just the exile) cut off from the force to survive the stress of the Mass Shadow Generator. As an exception, I'd say Disciple and Handmaiden don't necessarily have personal trauma but this is because they are introduced to the exile as a novice and will grow alongside you and reflect your decisions. The entire galaxy underwent trauma in the Mandalorian wars, and the story of KOTOR II is how react to your own trauma, the trauma of your companions, and ultimately the trauma of the republic. I see the light side and dark side choices in game as the way you dealt with your trauma and how you help others through theirs, rather than explicit rejections or embraces of Jedi/Sith teachings. After all, you aren't even a member of the Jedi Order anymore and you left a long time ago because you didn't agree with them. Think about it like the restoration project on Telos, but with the emotional and mental health of every character in the game. When Sion tells you that nobody could walk away from such things "unscarred" its up to you whether or not that's even true. Do you walk the path of the light side and find redemption/healing through community, altruism, and self sacrifice? Or do you walk the path of the dark side: hardening yourself for protection and seeking power at the expense of others' wellbeing? Sion and Nihilus chose the latter and take take the idea to its apex. Neither can survive without the force and they are restricted by their relationship to it. Kreia makes a point to say that Nihilus does not know true power as he cannot control himself, or his abilities. He is completely beholden to a primal urge to feed. Sion loses to you in the very clip because you have the stronger will. While they survived their trauma, they are weaker because they never healed. They are "scarred" as Sion says. Kreia offers a third way, based off your own survival at Malachor. Reliance upon the self, upon willpower and strength of mind is the only way to survive. After all, you did survive Malachor not because of your connection to the force, but because you were strong without it. It is the synthesis of Sith and Jedi ideas, which she combined after spending time as a great master of both orders. But is this a true way to heal from trauma? It may never be possible to heal from trauma, but look at how far your companions come and only after YOU took the time to influence them. They are strong on their own, surviving years on dangerous planets or designing weapons that bring armies to their knees, but through their connection to YOU, to a community, they unlock their true potential. You can have a profound effect on whether or not your companions unlock their potential for force sensitivity. Notice how it's always after an important breakthrough in conversation. Atton becomes force sensitive after he discloses his assassin past, and will only unlock his sensitivity depending on how you respond. Bao-Dur's confession to Meetra that he still thinks about the repercussions of activating a weapon of Mass Destruction is followed by him becoming a Jedi Guardian, if you choose to train him. You can defeat and restore Visas to her former self, saving her from her servitude and lose of identity. Sion himself is willing to let go of his trauma when YOU convince him, healing him and freeing him from the force. Even though Kreia is eloquent and a mastermind and her philosophy is seductive, her path will bring only survival but not true strength. Could you have beat the game without any companions? Maybe if you cheese it, but I don't think most people could. And yet Kreia is the final boss. Her strength is undeniable. Her philosophy may not be wrong after all, but it is up to the player to decide. Have you learned from her, or are you stuck in the old ways of thinking? She might blame you for not understanding her "lessons" but you might understand them and choose not to learn from them. Of course the Jedi order is flawed, of course it needs reform or destruction. Kreia is not wrong about this. But could you heal a galaxy with Kreia's philosphy? She would rather it not be healed if it could not save itself. But is it not true power to bring the dead back to life? Telos restored or Telos ravaged. The choice is up to you whether or not you heal youself, your companions, and the galaxy. That's exactly what this scene made me realize. Sion spelled out in plain language exactly what ties everything in this game together, what the story of KOTOR II really is: you are destined to be a great healer, or a great divider.

[@jackmeisel1608]

I just wrote a 1,000 word five paragraph essay and it wasn't even for school wow I'm a nerd.

[@PapitoQinn]

It's called passion.

[@Turtle1631991]

Bao-Dur says as much when your character is down after enclave confrontation. "I have destroyed planets for you, General. But now, this once, if we could save something in this galaxy... I need to do this, or I will die inside. Like I died at Malachor V." That one is one of my top KOTOR 2 quotes.

[@thomasdobbs6676]

And this is why Kreia is wrong, for all her teachings, they could not possibly heal the traumatized ppl of the galaxy, the teachings of the Exile, that of compassion, empathy, and selflessness absolutely can

[@justincummings8557]

@@jackmeisel1608 same here my friend.

[@mckoolio1997]

When sion states that he can finally leave "this place at last" one could infer that he's not referring to the trayas academy or malachor v, but rather reality itself. He'd been feeding on all of the pain and suffering that reality had to offer and he probably wanted to die, deep down, for a very long time

[@varenshan7731]

Pain warps and twists the mind and soul , the greater the pain , the greater agony. There are many kinds of pain , the pain of the soul is agonizing. If the trauma of the soul isnt healed or atleast balanced out , the soul twists into a mockery of its former self and eventually , it loses itself.

[@Turtle1631991]

I think in a way he did mean Malachor V - he carries it with him everywhere he goes. Did you ever se the first episode of Star Trek DS9? "You exist here"

[@enrique6335]

"I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings. You are just...there, unspoken." Translation: I can't stop thinking about you and I hate it.

[@Anu-wv3sp]

When I first played the game I thought the same thing too but I was like hold up is he actually in love with her? This low-key clears it up. Yup, he was ayyy

[@funakfunak2740]

​@@Anu-wv3sp I think it's part of the Exile's force bond ability, s/he inspires everyone around her/him which those characters seems to read as love/admiration. Atris is the best example of this, pretty much setting everything in this game including the complete annihilation of the jedi in motion because she thinks she's in love with the Exile and can't deal with it. You can also see it a bit in how companions are all acting unreasonably jealous towards other companions. This ability is truly terrifying, and kinda justifies just how the Jedi council doesn't seem to know how to deal with the Exile.

[@16imademanudutawedharma96]

@@funakfunak2740 "acting unreasonably jealous towards other companion" Huh. So the exile is a harem protagonist? Not too suprised really.

[@volition142]

I Made Manuduta Wedharma 16 yes but without the accidental sexual assault

[@16imademanudutawedharma96]

@@volition142 if only you can have romance in this game

[@yawgmoth6568]

"This is not a battle of words" Okay Darth Sion.

[@Dwurogowy]

Yawg moth You seek to erode my will. You will not succeed! (You have eroded sion's will)

[@arenring505]

@The Modern Stoic That was freakin hilarious!

[@Guardian_Robin]

Exile: Okay Boomer

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

See, when Canderous Ordo said in KOTOR 2 that the coming war was a war of belief, I wish it was something deep like this.

[@citus333]

@Xadion the plot of kotor 3 was the jedi knight story for the old republic

[@maaaaaap]

+citus333 nah

[@citus333]

@@maaaaaap it was the scrapped plot. Google it yourself

[@maaaaaap]

@@citus333 i have seen interview or comment where avellone said otherwise

[@quint3ssent1a]

well, if you battle with Sion, it's really war of belief. You need to undermine his resolve to continue fighting, unless he will fight you until you die from exhaustion.

[@nicholaslowry2366]

What I love about Darth Sion and Nihilis, isn’t the power they wield. It isn’t how many Jedi they’ve killed or how close they got to ruling the galaxy. What I love about them is that both of them represent the flaws of the Sith code, they’re very existence an embodiment of it. Darth Sion represents the flaw with the last line of the code, “the Force shall set me free.” The sith, for being so focused on personal power, rely on the force to grant them this power almost exclusively. But because of this, they effectively become a slave to the forces will. They can never let go of their hatred or passions, they can never let themselves feel peace, for to do so would be to forfeit their power, and in the case of Darth Sion, their life. The second flaw of the sith is shown quite clearly with Darth Nihilis. The masked Sith Lord is a black hole in the force, an ever hungering maw that eats all around it, but never stops eating. The problem with this is that eventually, there will be nothing left to consume, and at that end, Nihilis will still never have been sated. This parallels the sith’s tendency to seek power for power’s sake, to always become stronger and stronger, but ultimately, to never use the power they gain. For all of the strength that the many sith empires obtain, rarely if at all do they manage to enact permanent change. They might destroy a planet sure, but the war between sith and Jedi has still never found an end. The galaxy still shifts between empires and republics like hats. Darth Sidious has always been a joy to watch on screen, but damn I wish we could get villains like this in the main movies, and not ambiguous pseudo sith that die with only a few minutes of screen time.

[@arlostein1000]

Star Wars is a limited universe because of how fans are unwilling to let experimentation or change touch it. Outside of two films and KOTOR 1 and 2 it's never been interesting

[@gabethebabe3337]

arlo stein I feel that the films should mostly stay simple for the casual fans, that way they don’t complain when they don’t understand something and ultimately ruin it by removing future potential. It’s better to seek out quality content than to have it handed to you. Otherwise you take it for granted

[@arlostein1000]

GabeTheBabe I disagree completely you make your audience. If you give them simplistic trash they will become accustomed to trash, there is no good reason films can't be smart and successful and plenty of films prove that Star Wars has no good reason to stay simple

[@Matt-br4td]

This game did a terrific job of criticizing both the Jedi and Sith codes. Honestly if only we could get more self aware Star Wars writing with Disney's canon but alas that is extremely unlikely to happen.

[@sisigs4820]

Not just the sith code, the Jedi code as well. Both of them were flawed. Nihilus followed the Jedi into the battle of Malachor V and then the Mass Shadow Generator was activated.. turning him into Darth Nihilus. Sion follwed the Sith but he never got the satisfaction and power he desired.

[@Phoenix0F8]

"I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still I will rise again as strong as before." "Then a hundred times, I shall strike you down."

[@jordanj190]

This video shows the perfect juxtaposition of one who let their trauma consume them totally vs one who turned their trauma into unparalleled strength. Sion was so entrenched in hate that it confused him when he felt love. That love began to overpower the hate he spent his whole existence clinging to, which he didn't seem to understand. He saw a healed reflection of himself in the Exile and saw how she took her traumas and made them into strengths. He admired and respected it, which in turn healed him through this conversation and allowed him to surrender to peace, which made him die. It's beautiful.

[@MJSpiritual]

It's crazy to think that someone can see doom in beauty. Yet, that is the exact situation for Lord Sion. His complete immersion in the dark side is all that keeps what's left of his mangled body breathing. But the beauty of Meetra Surik tugs on that part of his heart that is still human, and he knows that if that persists, the dark side will lose its grip on him just enough to kill him. How tragic that his ability to admire or enjoy beauty clashes directly with his self-preservation instinct.

[@Guardian_Robin]

"It was not. No matter how many I killed, there was no end to the pain... the blades, the force, tore through my flesh. You... have defeated me, flesh and belief, both cast down... I am glad to leave this place. At last..."

[@archsteel7]

My favorite line in this entire fight is right at the end, you can ask him if the killing, the destruction of the Jedi, ever gave him relief. And he just takes it and admits "It did not." As much as people shit on the Jedi for the hypocrisy and how their rigid code seems to cause more problems then it solves, the Sith are no better. Sion was as pure a Sith as anyone could ever be, a being composed purely of hatred and malice, unable, *unwilling,* to die. And he achieved most everything a Sith could desire, all but destroying the Jedi, usurping his master, and acquiring immense power, but gained not one ounce of joy or relief from it. All that ambition, for *nothing.*

[@aamirrazak3467]

what is ambition, what is power if it fails yo help you achieve your goals? The Sith and the Jedi are both extremes, both flawed in their beliefs imho. And you say it well, that is the trap of the dark side. The power it grants you is great, but you destroy yourself, lose yourself in doing so.

[@enrique6335]

Kind of makes you wonder why someone would do that to themselves willingly. To remain "alive", incapable of dying conventionally but in a perpetual state of pain and agony.

[@The.Orange.Wizard]

Enrique Ponzio Because Sith above all else desire immortality, the voice actor of Darth Maul said that Sith cannot love on after death. When they’re gone, they remain gone, no ghosts, nothing.

[@aamirrazak3467]

The Orange Wizard true the Sith can only live for this world they are not selfless enough to accept the will of the force and become a spirit, so they try to hold on for as long as possible in the physical world before dying

[@pantonearqm2791]

Sion wasn't a pure Sith. Sion's goal was take revenge on the jedi, but goal of the true Sith - power acquisition for the sake of even more power and true sith, like Palpatine, gained joy from it. Conquest for power, the power itself is their only goal and we may find it meaningless, but true Sith simply have different values ​​from ours.

[@user-ez9ng2rw9c]

I love how Sion just excludes Revan out of the convo. Even he doesn't wanna compare himself with the dude. Revan was truly a beast.

[@volition142]

“It’s not possible to walk away from such thing unscarred, to keep living as the universe dies around you”

[@ike8559]

I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I loved that when Sion is trying to kill you, the camera angle shows the more deformed side of his face, but when finally excepts defeat, the camera angle shows the less deformed side of his face

[@PapitoQinn]

It's always that way, so I have to say that it is intentional. I never noticed before. Well done.

[@CuteGallifreyian]

I beginning to think that Sion is far more tragic as a character....

[@mitchellhayward6492]

All of these characters are so well written. The Exile and Nihilus are opposite sides of the coin. Both are wounds in the Force, but where Nihilus is one who feeds on the strength of others - the Exile takes strength, and gives strength back. Kreia/Traya is Obi Wan, yet also Palpatine. A Grey Jedi, yet still an extremist. Nihilus is an unstoppable force, and Sion is an immovable object. And Sion is like Vader, the who could never be killed, but in the end was defeated because he loved.

[@dewittbourchier7169]

Darth Nihilus is meant to be tragic too. Less sympathetic than Sion but tragic. It is strongly implied he did not want to become what he is, but know that he is what he is he has no choice. And when he sees Visas Marr with the Exile he roars in anger and pain as Visas was the closest thing he had to someone too dear and close to him to kill, even with his hunger, and he sees her joining the Exile as the betrayal of a loved one. Both Nihilus and Sion loathe themselves with a passion.

[@sisigs4820]

Nihilus and sion are both tragic. They were both scarred for life, and then used by Kreia.

[@DJRainbowToxic]

@@mitchellhayward6492 "The Exile and Nihilus are opposite sides of the coin" i smell a buddy and a V2 that was launched at a certain dam.

[@Blastanker]

2:14 I love how when you do this part in game immediately after his dialogue text pops up saying that you eroded his will lmao

[@dedomniusjustitiam1812]

It's sad really Sion is a variation of what you (the exile) might've become, were you a different person. It is the simple point exemplified here just as on Dantooine, that neither the true "sith" or "jedi" understand that life is pain or evolution (more specifically I would say love itself is life and creation, that evolution is a part of that love, only when you deny it does it become pain or if you are incapable of it, hollow, or lesser, slight digression) that you needn't have to ignore or deny aspects of yourself, and to do so is to lie in the face of truth. To be whole, to be true, to be complete and universal is to accept we are darkness and light, these are not inherently evil concepts. Kreia's failed apprentices were not failures as the dogmatic jedi masters were, they did not deny war or pain or the realities there of. They were failures because they became consumed by them, unable to move on, to heal and become whole once more. To accept love in equal measure with righteous anger, to have temperance and discipline and yet still love war and the hunt. These things do not make one evil or arrogant as much as accepting our own virtues or power does not, they do when we lack compassion and restraint and measure all in relatives and or absolutes as the jedi and sith are so inclined to do, just as they worship and obey an entity in the "force" itself without ever truly understanding it's intention. I understand Kreia I really do, I can see why she felt as she did about all things but especially about the force, why worship it, why cow to it, when you don't truly understand it. But regardless Sion is like a gravestone for Malachor and thus the exile showing the pain of being unable to move on to be obsessed. Where as the exile does and can, he can't, he is a shallow reflection of you, unable to see the force as it actually is and why Kreia truly loved and chose you. The tragedy being he recognizes this on some level, and his own failings, but lacks the conscience and cognizance to ever truly understand those things in there depth and entirety. He lacks what I would call universality and nobility yet he is still more noble and universal than the jedi masters who cast judgement on you. Thus the irony and tragedy. A final thought there are many allusions and parallels to wars and ideology, in this series in particular this game is like looking at the aftermath of the world after the Russo Japanese war, Franco Prussian war, WWI, WWII, and Korea, and you a survivor of many of them seeing what they wrought in their wake. To see so many wars in so short a time, and to have such great empathy which is part of your power in forming bonds thus weighs heavily upon you, and why you initially walked away I think. There are many parallels to PTSD as well, that the total causality of your actions and your experiences come crashing down on you and you must literally carry places like Malachor around with you. I think it's why the jedi masters said you are Malachor because you are that pain that memory and potentially that is also why you're beautiful to Sion who's obsession is pain itself. And the jedi not seeing beyond the pain as well but instead of loving it they feared it, and tried to kill it, deny it, and say it was all you were but it wasn't, and it shows their true ignorance, and their true weakness. You are not that pain it is but a part of you, even if staring into you was like a wound in the force. It didn't make you death or hunger itself you didn't behave as Nihilus did. You were something else, something more, something universal and noble.

[@PapitoQinn]

Well said. Very poetically written as well.

[@dedomniusjustitiam1812]

I try in my laconic or stoic ways, in how those words actually apply, using Plato's wisdom "Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they must say something". If I'm going to speak I will use what words I have, to there full disposal and effect. One last thought with Sion is it seems evident that he is as I say, for if nothing else in this final confrontation he tries to ward you off. I believe in part because he fears "she" will make you as he is, something he never wants to see again. Because he doesn't want to kill you he simply wants you to leave as he says repeatedly.

[@PapitoQinn]

You're right. He didn't even want to kill her. He was in love with her. But he'd be more than willing to if in meant saving her from a fate worse than death. His own.

[@nillynush4899]

Paragraphs are important writing tools folks.

[@clydejones6900]

THERE ARE NONE

[@paprskomet]

Anybody else thinks that screenply to this is basically genial?Those of the latest films are nothing compared to this.And design of Sion,Nihilus and Traya are also perfect as well as depiction of their complicated relationships.Together with Mysteries of the Sith this game have best ever Sith/dark side atmosphere-at least in my opinion.

[@Antagonism0]

This is actually what made me realize that I didn't like star wars, specially the mouse star wars. I just liked the kotor 1 and 2 for how deep they made this really shallow franchise.

[@deadeyes2803]

this sucks

[@alexduta7469]

None of the films (all 9 of them) are as good as KotOR 1&2.

[@SerathDarklands]

_"I am glad to leave this place at last..."_ The Dark Side may be a short, quick way to power, but all that power brings is pain, suffering, death, and destruction. Nothing good ever comes from it. All of Sion's power, all of his rage, and his hate, his countless returns from death, and what did it bring him in the end? Nothing but endless suffering.

[@lordofcreativity9637]

To my perspective (and this is only my perspective), the dark side of the force in a manner of speaking seems to be similar to poison. A poison that can be used to gain great power, but at the expense of causing great pain and slowly killing the body and soul. As the Sith sink deeper into the dark side, their power grows as they consume more of the poison, but it results in them losing the ability to cure themselves or even experience the better emotions in life such as joy without bringing suffering to others and victory to themselves. In the end, they become dependent on that poison needing it to stay alive and strong even as it slowly consumes them. I recall one story I read once in which while reluctantly working with an antagonist who had used their version of this power in a similar way, the person working with him noted how he seemed happy to be working at his trade again. This character noted that since this antagonist used his trade and its results as a tool and a weapon that he couldn't be feeling joy just from working his craft, he was happy because working at it again would give him the opportunity to betray the person he was working with. Fortunately, the other character took careful provisions to ensure that the attempt would fail. The problem with being a snake is that people know you will bite them if they give you the opportunity and if they interpret you as a threat, at least if they are smart about it.

[@BLK_MN]

Sion was right. After you face Darth Traya, you are changed forever, broken to what you were before. Light or Dark, you leave Malachor V, and exile yourself to unknown places.

[@Greytruth2]

I truly loved this game. I stumbled upon it as a teen quite by accident, I hadn't even played the first one either. I played it during a time where my parents had split and everything I knew about the world peeled apart as a sad lie. This game helped me in ways I thought were impossible for a game to do. I felt as much a student to Kreia's teachings as the Exile was. The amount of wisdom within this game is very precious and it's clear there are others out there who feel it's importance too. Which is why I worry with Disney at the helm when people want these games made into films. If the Sequels are anything to go by, they would never be able to replicate this story. KOTOR 2 was a fictional masterpiece. They would never be able to understand it.

[@PapitoQinn]

I like to think that DIsney does have or can hire talented people who can understand it, but a 2 hour movie is not a 40+ hour game. There's also the factor that they're trying to maximize profit. A film that's too "deep" is considered too big of a risk by movie studios. They can't have people walking out of the theater with their heads spinning.

[@arlostein1000]

Last Jedi was so wrapped in nihilism I don't know how you couldn't see the sequels had potential. It was closer to KOTOR than the pandering trash that we'll get now because of how immature the adult fantasy is

[@arenring505]

@Greytruth Kotor was there for me when I was a kid too. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nojMonVsjd2Zg7M That part of kotor (and many more from kotor) moved my entire soul... and changed the way I viewed the world.

[@Grandof-the-PentastarAlignment]

@@arlostein1000 Rian Johnson understood, but he only made one film, the middle one at that. 8 was basically a retelling of many of the plots in episode 7 and a rejection of everything Abrahams thought up for the trilogy. Rian was too arrogant for someone in his position. He was unable to play for the star wars team where it counted most. had he delivered some exceptional saber duel and battle choreography he could have delivered the most stupid story and people would have praised the film but he intentionally designed the story to minimize action and piss people off with that casino side quest and infighting story on the rebel side. And I can understand that he felt the need to be extra arrogant because Abraham's was so immensely stupid, completely unable to understand what star wars is and had no plan aside from wasting time and copying OT elements. Rian understood the heart of the philosophy and Abraham's understood nothing except tricking people into liking his visuals for 3 years after release. If anyone at Lucasfilm or Disney had actually wanted star wars to become better overall they would under no circumstances have given Abraham's full reign over episode 7. He wrote a nonsensical crawl text without consulting the story group (he was obliged to it) and the entire world makes no sense anymore as the first order apparently wants to destroy the republic to kill the jedi, when it should have been the other way around. Disney would have needed to have seeded plot threads and let them develop in a natural way from movie to movie, not what we got going from 7 to 8. Getting Abraham's to execute any semblance of story with 9 in the end was the only viable option after that. They could have used Trevorows version, it reads decent enough, but just like the prequels people would have in the end hated 7 for its false leads. The studio system is still at fault, not the fans because without studio execs demanding abarahams for episode 7 we could have gotten something that would have taken risks and was not just a retread. Abarahams is such a giant hack, he even ruins everything he touches and is only in this position because of 2 decent films where he just copied Spielberg style. His very own style when he is forced to do a non Spielbergian film is plain schizophrenic and ADHD.

[@silvertemplar8061]

@@PapitoQinn What if they split it up into separate movies.

[@WillieManga]

"The force fills an empty, shattered shell. There is little left of the man you once were. You know this." The force is a hell of a drug. Without Meetra's responses accompanying it, it almost feels like Sion is just internally answering his own questions, reflecting on what he has done...

[@vortimerofkent128]

"I'm glad to leave this place ... at last."

[@nickthepick8043]

I want to say those words in the right setting someday. I really do.

[@Turtle1631991]

I just realised that you could interpret this in context of Buddhism. Sion's relation to power of the force is that of attachment - making him weaker. What Kreia preaches and Meetra embodies is lack of attachment, willingness to let go of it and as such being able to use it without being ruled by it.

[@philip8498]

"What males you able to defeat me?" Me using immortality cheat: "You know Sion, i am something of a lord of pain myself"

[@Tabby3456]

Sion: Don't let Kreia manipulate you Me: i helped all the little guys. So already done.

[@Avenger85438]

Kreia Sion and Nihlus are all deconstructions. Hunger for power. Perseverance through pain. And constant scheming. There are other aspects to each, which are also taken apart, but most of all Kreia herself is a deconstruction of morally gray characters. Her obsession with seeing fault in every action someone takes, regardless of intent, has rendered her isolated and broken. Pushed away by almost every student she had, the ones she didn't break. All because she can't let go of her perception of the Force, whatever wisdom she shares is either in spite herself, or simply to serve her own ends. She is a mentor archetype who cannot teach any other way, and has grown so disillusioned with life she despises the very embodiment of it.

[@SpaghettiToaster]

That's not true at all. You seem to be misunderstanding the Kreia character fundamentally. The reason she disagrees with (almost) everything you do is becauae the game is all about the exile's path to an understanding of the force which everybody in Star Wars lore except Kreia herself seems to lack. She's not anti-life, im fact, she's the opposite. She advocates free thought and capacity for independent action, but she knows that the way the force works in the Star Wars universe severely restricts and undermines these freedoms. Kreia is basically Zaratusthra, only placed into a universe where an unseen and unknown force dictates many of most people's actions and has forced the galaxy into a constant cycle of war between extremist worshippers of this incomprehensible force. Her philosophy overlaps greatly with that of Nietzsche in almost all aspects, which at its core is all about individual capacity and self-determination. It is the jedi's pseudo-buddhist anti-life ideology and the sith's animalistic and nihilistic pursuit of power she despises, as they both undermine the capacity of the individual to determine their own fate, and instead submit it to be shaped by the force.

[@Avenger85438]

That's an interpretation, like mine. I stated it because I wanted to share it, not disprove others. If you see the Force as an ever influencing god your take may be appealing. If you view it as just the manifestation of life energy, mine could be preferred. There's no real answers. That's half the fun of discussing characters.

[@SpaghettiToaster]

@@Avenger85438 Sure, especially since the expanded universe isn't considered canon, I suppose there is no "right" answer. But at least if considering the KOTOR universe itself, it is strongly implied that the force itself is what causes the neverending cycle of war in the galaxy. It does this by (eventually) corrupting anyone who uses it for personal gain, leading them down the path of the Sith. The only way to use it without being corrupted it by renouncing all individual pursuits, and thus renouncing life itself, like the jedi do. This mechanism is well-supported by all 8 movies so far and is fundamental even in the original trilogy (yoda more or less explains exactly like this in Empire). In the KOTOR universe, every force user is subject to this influence of the force. There are those who try to escape this influence by exiling themselves from anything important going on in the galaxy (this faction is symbolized by one of the jedi characters in KOTOR 2 but I can't remember his name), but they either end up being drawn back into the cycle or fail to change anything about it from their exile, as they lose any influence over large-scale events in the galaxy. Thus, the force as explained in the original trilogy and expanded on over much of the franchise, becomes an oppressive force that undermines the very foundation of what Kreia (and Nietzsche) considers a meaningful life. This is why Kreia loves the Exile: She (the Exile) is the only one who was able to willingly sever her connection to the force and thus break free of the cycle. After witnessing this, she constructs a plan to end the cycle once and for all. First, she schemes to use Malachor V to forcibly separate everyone from the force, accepting that most force-users will not survive this. Later, she finds a better option in using Malachor V's influence to draw every force user there to create a permanent exile, preventing the passing on of force sensitivity and liberating the galaxy from the cycle. But this can never happen unless the Exile understands the truth of the force. These are just a few aspects of Kreia's character though, not touching on her personal relationships with the Exile, the Sith lords and the jedi, her mentorship to all of them and so many other aspects. You may disagree with the way the Star Wars universe is portrayed in these games or with Kreia's philosophy, but making her out to just be a cranky, failed mentor is in my opinion a severe misrepresentation and doesn't do justice to what I consider by far the most well-written character in all of Star Wars and perhaps the greatest in all of videogames. In fact, this game is so well-written that to me, most characters, but especially Kreia, are some of the most intriguing in all of fiction that I've ever read (or seen or played).

[@DraculaCronqvist]

@@SpaghettiToaster Finally, someone who understands Kreia. She is the greatest hero of Star Wars, not a Sith, not a Jedi, not a power-hungry schemer. She wanted to save the life of billions!

[@hk1371]

@@SpaghettiToaster I agree that Kreia is a really good character. Her lessons are to be studied and learned from such as her one on charity. That really struck a chord with me. But her flaw was over-analyzing everything and seeing things that aren’t there or even the Forces fault. (Could be Ironic that I, too, am potentially over-analyzing too but ah well haha) (For this, I’ll mostly be countering what you’ve said about the Force and the characters but it does relate to Kreia) Firstly, the whole thing with the Force being the one responsible for the cycle of war makes no sense from both the KoTOR games and Star Wars from the OT and Prequels. If the Force wanted to make war, then Wounds in the Force would not happen. The Force prioritizes life and accepts death when it serves life to continue it. Yoda even confirms as much: “Life creates it, makes it grow”. Not only that but it doesn’t match up with how balance was shown in Star Wars, confirmed by George Lucas or even how life works. Balance in the Force does not mean the same amount of light to the same amount of dark. It is actually larger in amount of Light side and smaller in dark side, with the center of balance between the two to put it on a scale not being at equal length. This is confirmed by Lucas when he said Anakin killing Sidious brought balance to the Force, not him killing the Jedi in 3 as that plunged the Galaxy into darkness. Not only that, but we can see it in our own lives as well. When we help someone, we don’t break their arm in the sake of balance to account for the light action we did. The Force also is not overriding any will of the characters in Star Wars, nor does it punish them for having individuality or not completely serving it. Jolee Bindo (The exile you mentioned) is an example of this. He is a force user that made his own choices like leaving the Jedi and chose to return on his own morals to stop the galaxy from falling to Malak. And he maintains his personality and individuality, acting as a counter to the Jedi’s rules on surrendering all attachments in their attempt to serve the Force completely. He acknowledges that passions, if left unchecked, can lead anyone down the dark path (Not just Jedi or force users) but that it should be taught to be controlled and accepted. And the Force does not punish him or corrupt him. His life is his own. He exiled himself not to escape the galaxy or the Force’s influence but because he wanted to punish himself for failing to kill his wife, who killed many others. A crime, he felt, he was wrongly excused from. The Force never overrode his will. To counter the point on the force corrupting people who use it, it is because the dark side of the force that the Sith (And dark side users) have is not from the Force naturally, as the Force is created by life and it would not make sense for it to have such abilities as Force Choke and Force Drain and Force Lightning. It is actually a corruption of the force, turning it into a poison which destroys the user who corrupted the Force. And we see that reflected in how the characters bring themselves to their own ruin through their choices. Anakin fell to Darth Vader for choosing to obey Palpatine and killed hundreds and thousands of innocents and Jedi which resulted in his burning and loss of the one he sought to save (Who he had killed through breaking her heart). Ajunta Pall made the first Sith and attempted to seize power through the Dark Side and in KoTOR 1, we find his soul in remorse for what he had done, for the chaos and pain he caused through his actions and persisted through the dark side. Sion who, as we see here, cannot die and, with every dark side monstrosity he did, was denied satisfaction due to that poison and was unable to pass on. And Kreia, who had both been betrayed and betrayed another and held the galaxy by its throat, led herself against an enemy that she had falsely seen through looking at everything for having a fault which led her to going down a road that would ultimately be in vain since the Force would come back through Life. Life creates the Force and unless she destroys life, the Force can never go away forever. In the end, the Force was not the schemer Kreia thought it was. Its will was just as simple as wanting life to continue on. I am not putting Kreia down or hating her at all, she is still one of my favourite characters in Star Wars but one of the reasons I like her so much is also due to her faults as well as her feats. Her unique view is fantastic and it can be discussed and dissected like this so well for its good parts and its bad parts. She is certainly more than a cranky old teacher but she can also act like one at times hehe. Also, apologies for the sheer length of this ramble. Just love the character and the subject, really

[@HadoukenSpammer]

" Let's turn off our lightsabers from time to time and engange in monologues "

[@nickthepick8043]

I like to imagine that Sion's cracked flesh was slowly starting to come apart at the final speech of his. Bits of his jaw, remaining teeth, his right eye going loose, his face melting and "shlopping" apart as he gradually accepts the new belief. And yet somehow, through the skill of animation, you can see the relief it brings to him, and would make it beautiful. A nice touch would be if his corpse continued to fall apart on the ground after it collapses.

[@enrique6335]

Maybe if this game had been done in recent years, but I can only imagine at how graphic that would've looked, lol.

[@nickthepick8043]

@@enrique6335 Oh yeah, it would've been nasty. Like Jeff Goldblum in "The Fly" XD

[@varenshan7731]

May you rest in peace at last, Lord Sion.

[@bricesolet2444]

I love your videos. So simple and they reveal the more deeper meaning of the kotor 2 plot and character motives

[@jimhuffman9434]

Admit it Sion, you have a hard-on for Surik!

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

Sion is a biological Malachor V. Scarred, cracked, broken, in endless agony, with no real reason to live, causing nothing but pain and better off gone.

[@NoMoreNever]

The duel between the Exile and Darth Sion is what a lightsaber battle should be and it's up there among my favorite duels of all time. A duel is more than a fight between two combatants to see who is the strongest, it's as the title of the video says a battle of wills, a test of one's convictions and character. I love that you don't defeat Sion because you are the most powerful but because you are finally able to grant him that which he needs the most, a release from the pain of living.

[@proprioceptive_ultragamer]

"You and her are alike, yet different in all the ways that matter. And I hate you as I hate her. I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts--no teachings. You are just there: unspoken. I hate you because you are beautiful to me, and in that weakness lies death. Perhaps in that weakness is the death of my master as well." Obsidian is capable of conjuring up more emotional nuance from a 'Sith Lord' in one minute than the entire garbage SW lore. It's too bad that without mods Sion is a pale imitation of this character for the male Exile, which far too many gamers would choose by default. (Additionally: PartySwap allows a person to have both Discipline and Handmaiden--and boy is the game far more complete that way.)

[@deathsdoor07]

This dude takes monologuing to another level.

[@PapitoQinn]

I sure do.

[@volition142]

Darts Sion has a cool voice as well as wicked scars he should join a rock band

[@trevorp8124]

As static as the dialogue sections are visually, this scene is more Star Wars-y than probably any other game I've played, and feels like something out of the movies; just a flat out duel with some clashing philosophy in between. My personal favorite dialogue after Sion collapses was always "Get up, Sith Lord, and I'll prove to you that you can die"

[@BloodDragon-40k]

In a very contradicting way if a jedi loves and loses their love they can fall to the dark side, while Sith if they love they create a weakness in their defense, a way to strike at them directly. For Sion I think it was not only because he was consumed by anger and darkness for years and that anger keep him from falling, but losing that anger to something you love , something you didn't know you needed that thing was indeed death to him. Just goes to show how Jolie was right about love, love saved Sion from the infinite darkness, and loved kept Anakin with the jedi because Padme was the one bright spot in all that darkness until he was tricked and betrayed, and still love brought him back from the dark side in the end knowing fully well that leaving his suit would kill him but he preferred to be at peace for his son. In a way they are alike, in many ways Anakin Vader was like Sion but more mechanical, always fueling his hatred with the pain of his defeat at the hands of his former master, never willing to let go .

[@TheSkully343]

Back in 2005 Part of me was always curious to see how this battle of belief would've unfolded in the potential KOTOR III considering what was spoken about here. I just assumed it would've just been a bunch of Jedi and Sith sitting in a council chamber bickering about philosophy until they died of boredom and old age.

[@cataclysmicacedia824]

I think a battle of "flesh and faith" is more accurate. There no doubt would have been battle, this goes without saying. It is Starwars we are talking about. However a breed of Sith who hold the ideology/order over themselves and selfish self-interest would have been interesting.

[@cataclysmicacedia824]

The battle of ideals would have hopefully been a recount of how it all started. The Force Wars on Tython and the 100 year darkness for example. We never found out who struck first or how the Jedaii split into the Jedi and Dark Jedi.

[@Paerigos]

@@cataclysmicacedia824 Well there is not breath of sith, but there are few Sith like that. Darth Marr for example.

[@ddpzzp553]

@@Paerigos SWTOR sith could have been better but Marr kidna fits that, Jadus maybe but Ihavent played agent so IDK, thoguh Jadus I heard was an ass

[@fishfishrun1207]

when you max out speech, and finally have a use for it other then to avoid combat

[@TheSoundita]

SWKOTOR2 NPCs: *talking shit* Meetra: cool story bro

[@barone8889]

Rest in Peace Sion. Seriously...i felt so sorry for him when he died.

[@TheHoodedHunter]

0:27 Is no one gonna mention how this exact quote was used in Fallout New Vegas by Ulysses at the beginning of Lonesome Road?

[@PapitoQinn]

I think someone that point that out before. Same writer, Chris Avellone, so yeah.

[@MyMorningSwag]

Love all of your Kotor 2 video edits, keep them coming!!

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks. You keep loving'em, I'll keep making'em.

[@Samlli]

Y'all ever think about how bad Sion would smell?

[@jimhuffman9434]

You mean, the scent of dead rotting flesh?

[@gammamaster1894]

That first line is so powerfully spoken

[@Ulquiorra4163]

I came around to this fight as one of my favorite boss fights ever for this as well as something I think some might miss, I could be misremembering though so take this with a grain of salt. My first playthrough I went Dark Side cause I knew Light would be canon and made a rather impressive mistake due to my age and misunderstanding of RPGs. I was a Guardian and, instead of going Marauder like I should have, I went for Sith Lord, not knowing that prestiging my class was ment to work one way best. Yes, the option to mix classes is there but it can be a struggle....... it was for me as my melee fighter now favored Force moves so I had to adjust stats. Turns out, it benefited me in the Sion duel. My newly buffed Int, Wis, and Charisma played into my favor as I more easily talked him down after a couple bouts. Now, I see this as two Sith, with differing ideals, seeing who'll prove the better Dark Sider as I used my mind and logic to wear this long time warrior down to giving up his stubborn way. My Light Side playthrough was different. I knew my mistake and went full Weapon Master, untouchable and unstoppable...... then the Sion duel. I remembered I wasn't the savy, tactful Sith Lord now but a battle hardened Jedi Weapon Master, fighting the purest form of a Sith Marauder. Unstoppable force vs immovable object as Light and Dark clashed. My view on the duel changed as it showed not just a battle of beliefs but wills too. The stalwart Light Side warrior that couldn't be touched against the Dark Sider warrior that refused to die through his pure hate and raw will. It took far more duels but each ended fast due to my pure fighter and tuned sabers but I literally started forcing my will over his as his dialog changed down towards where he'd give in, instead of through cunning words of a Sith, through the unmatched prowess of a Jedi and fellow warrior. Sion is the warrior of the three, the one that keeps coming back to fight again. When he fought that last time, it was tough now, actually knocking my health to half before I beat him. I felt respect for him since we literally fought to get to were he'd have his last battle, I could even imaging him crumbling to ash and dust after holding his body together for so long. finally bested by his long time enemy. Most underrated boss battle ever.

[@TheWTFsauce]

I get that books and games have a lot more freedom than The movies can but come on the characters like Sion and nihilus (I hope I spelt that right) are a great depiction on how deep the dark side can be, and all without ruining Vader’s precious image of being the dark bad ass he is

[@theaveon1214]

I live for these.

[@thesenate5913]

He thrives through pain and lives because of it. He seeks pain to live and gives pain to everyone around him, and a life in continous pain and suffering is a worthless one. His life is torture.

[@nathanielmalekani1529]

Extremely powerful voice acting and superb writing in the form of well defined characters and exquisite dialogue allows the incredibly dated and terrible animation and presentation of this game to remain strong despite it's modern failings.

[@Death-jl1cv]

The exile : Look at me, now look at you. It’s clear that I’m the main character of this game.

[@lillith3159]

After that fucking giant storm lizard in the surface of malachor i can assure you that my anger is way bigger than yours

[@dan7291able]

Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Traya each could of been their own amazing bad guy in each of their own Kotor game, but no, we were gifted and SPOILED to have all 3 in the SAME game, aptly titled : The Sith Lords. Ill never forget this game(s)/storyline(s)

[@themachine7263]

*This is not a battle of words exile* Exile wins the battle of words.

[@joshuaAdams3561]

I feel as though, in a another life Sion and the Exile could have had a life together.

[@PapitoQinn]

In another time. In another life.

[@4477superman]

@@PapitoQinn Another life, another time, two different people

[@maleexile9053]

We're buddies

[@joshuaAdams3561]

@@maleexile9053 oh really? Interesting.

[@christiannewaye7306]

0:03 me after failing no but November

[@mirjanaivoci4799]

Malachor V one of my favorite planets revan used this planet to kill not his strongest suppoters as hk47 stated this

[@RamanShrikant]

We need more Darth Sion and Nilihus

[@nathanielwestermann]

what a masterpiece of a game

[@keithmugisha5205]

Sion had much to say. He was a repressed man who had found someone, without a choice but to listen.

[@TheRealHelvetica]

Darth Scion is pretty merciful for a Sith.

[@Sweetness71775]

It was because he loved the Exile. He wasn't merciful with any other Jedi.

[@maleexile9053]

Wasn't merciful to me

[@Oodelally]

Where Kotor 1 became boring and repetitive, Kotor 2 was amazing and beautiful. A splendid game, the best Star Wars game.

[@travisrassel9978]

The Lord Revan could have made the galaxy strong, instead he surrendered it to weakness.

[@georgesuarez8325]

I'm currently playing the KOTOR 2 mobile app and I'm facing Darth Sion in the Trayus Academy. So far I haven't been able to beat him but it's an amazing game. Listening to Sion talking to the Exile...it's obvious he has feelings for her but Meetra never would have been involved with him. I would have preferred seeing Meetra and Atton Rand as a couple

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

It's a bit hard to see the "battle of belief" without seeing the Exile's part of the conversation

[@storms9023]

The writing is great.

[@ghostface4404]

"my chains are broken...".

[@RichardBarkman]

Nice timing with thumbnail with lightsaber grow red (technically red light on the floor)

[@Blastanker]

Were you inspired by Knights&Darths for the way you structure and edit music in these videos?

[@PapitoQinn]

Yes, that is correct.

[@retr0sity670]

Nice observation my duuude Also congrats to the channel for keeping the game alive through these videos🙏

[@75JUNAKI]

Broken will = defeat.

[@daviddavidson9923]

Something I noticed is that Scion was only able to move on after caring about other people.

[@Straswa]

Nice vid, so much better with the restored content.

[@fudgekun8753]

"I hate you because you are beautiful." Sure it makes sense

[@sirmount2636]

Because her beauty lessens his hatred. & he thinks that makes him weaker.

[@Guardian_Robin]

He hates her because her beauty makes him lose part of his desire to kill her. Sion’s greatest strength is his willpower, his mental fortitude - her beauty weakens it, and that frightens him. And, as anyone who’s beaten this game knows, it’s also enough to destroy him forever.

[@mechanwhal6590]

"Get out ASAP! While I give you a long speech about philosophy!"

[@Darklighter75]

Imagine how epic game could have been if Lucas hadn't made them rush it out. It's still a great game, but it could have been legendary.

[@SpaghettiToaster]

What are you talking about? It is legendary. The cut content is available in a mod, and with all updates installed, the game is basically bug free. It is easily the best star wars game and one of the greatest games ever made.

[@julies3837]

Oh Sion

[@abstraction6212]

Now we need The exile to do the same thing to SCP 682

[@I_am_a_cat_]

Probably should have included your responses to him, somehow

[@harrambou9468]

5:40 Damn..

[@shavoidpatrick1602]

There are techniques within the force against which there is no defense force crush & buying time ie running is very effective against kreias 3 lightsaber technique ( you eroded sions will )

[@vernitico]

The only thing I didn't like about the KOTOR games were the awkward animations. But other than that both are among my favorite games ever.

[@go_better]

No. Unfortunately I don't understand what made Sion doubt. But I guess, KOTOR 2 needs a revisit. It's been so long, and I didn't understand a lot back when I used to play it.

[@enrique6335]

A combination of the Exile's conviction in her own beliefs and him constantly losing against her.

[@go_better]

@@enrique6335 thanks

[@panlis6243]

Top ten anime battles

[@jijiwiggu982]

Daddy Sion

[@Capt_CrimsoN]

I find it so interesting how Sion has feelings for the female Exile (aka canon Exile), but for the male Exile, he just straight up hates you. Actually he is envious of you because you covet Kreia's attention.

[@Nephalem2002]

Sion was from the Old Sith Wars, before Exar Kun even?

[@The.Orange.Wizard]

Jeffrey Scott You have the Exar Kun wars mixed up with the Mandolorian wars. Sion turned Sith at the end of the Mando wars.

[@nightmaregats]

Nice

[@iratepirate3896]

Ow the edge!

[@TheSkully343]

Accept The Darkness!

[@Kainlarsen]

What mod did you use to improve the resolution?

[@clydejones6900]

what do U KNOW OF PAIN BOUND AT MALAHCORE OR OTHER NEXUS POINTS

[@hekatomb74748]

Why do not show the dialogue options? :/

[@PapitoQinn]

I was trying to make it more cinematic. But I'll go ahead and upload a version where I have the dialogue options soon.

[@hekatomb74748]

@@PapitoQinn thx

[@marioivoci1782]

How did you get that hair or i need restored content

[@PapitoQinn]

The character model I used is the "Canon Exile Mod."

[@marioivoci1782]

@@PapitoQinn where do i download this mod

[@PapitoQinn]

@@marioivoci1782 I got it from the steam workshop.

[@marioivoci1782]

@@PapitoQinn thanks

[@PapitoQinn]

@@marioivoci1782 You're welcome.