Why America's Nuclear Army Failed | Pentomic

[@BattleOrder]

If you want to know what the unit symbols are or use them yourself for free: www.battleorder.org/icons

[@mikecastro122]

you mention that some of the required tech was not in service YET so now that tech has advanced would the pentomic structure work now

[@marceldurand2058]

Gracias

[@brandonallred3763]

Hey who made that opening speech on this video?

[@benjaminw3922]

@@mikecastro122 No. To make a very long series of doctrine/history classes very short, we have not figured out how to win wars without infantry on the ground to hold it. US/NATO doctrine is blitzkrieg-esque, while Chinese doctrine is focused on a strategic version of a defense in depth, and the Russians are fighting a trench-to-trench fight. A dispersed US force cannot effectively concentrate firepower to defeat a strategic defense in depth, a dispersed Chinese force cannot effectively defeat a concentrated NATO push, and a dispersed Russian defense creates pockets for Ukrainian breakthroughs. Separately, the US doesn't train or field low-yield tactical nukes anymore, which is perhaps the biggest issue to currently employ the pentomic force.

[@BrasilKid]

Can anyone tell me how the camera always survived the blast?

[@LordOceanus]

My grandfather served in Germany in the late 60s as the Sergeant leading a self propelled artillery battery in the Fulda gap. His standing orders in the event of war were fire all 8 of his nuclear shells and then run like hell west

[@peterlustig6888]

Nice to see the orders of our American "friends"

[@rzu1474]

@@peterlustig6888 Right. It was clear the west would fall and be ground to a pulp. My grandfather (east German Army in the early 60s) said his unit was supposed to be in Hamburg by day 2 at most...

[@obscureoccultist9158]

@@peterlustig6888 I'm going to be brutally honest here. For the entirety of the cold war. Everyone was aware that if a conflict between east and west broke out. Germany would immediately be vaporized by nuclear fire within the first couple of hours.

[@obscureoccultist9158]

@@rzu1474 To be fair, Warsaw pact doctrine at the time wasn't any better then the Americans. They believed they could reach the Rhine River in 7 days and the Pyrenees by the Spanish border within 14 days. Such an expectation was considered overtly optimistic even by Soviet war planners. They were also going on the assumption that the Americans (and the British and French as well) wouldn't immediately use their nuclear arsenals in the event of a land war in Germany. The Soviets believed they could get away with invading west Germany before they would reach France and face actual nuclear warfare.

[@rzu1474]

@@obscureoccultist9158 As I said. Hamburg in a day or two.

[@_lime.]

Talk of post nuclear war always reminds me of Vulcan pilots in the U.K. The early warning systems at the time would give them enough time to get airborne and out of the range of any incoming Soviet nukes. Their orders after that were to hit all of their predesignated targets and then keep flying east, seeing as their island nation would be nothing but an irradiated rock at this point. The unofficial policy was to bailout over Siberia before you ran out of fuel, then marry in to a local family, seeing as it was unlikely anyone would bother making the vast stretches of Siberia into even more of a wasteland then it already is by nuking it. On a side note, the thing that should terrify people the most is the possibility of pure fusion weapons. They've attempted to design them for decades and always failed, but there are a number of current theories that could produce them. A pure fusion weapon is far lighter and smaller for the same yield, and more importantly, since it has no fission it doesn't produce fallout, removing one of the major reason people don't want to use nukes. It's basically just an insanely powerful conventional explosive.

[@asdasd-ty9se]

Neat, can’t wait for broken arrow one to end up in Saudi Arabian hands

[@buddermonger2000]

Oh so we'll have a bigger and better Davy crocket?

[@gangfish6900]

Wow they cared so much about Vulcan pilots personal lives in the UK

[@AmphiStuG]

So now you can vaporize millions of people ethically.

[@MrTJPAS]

I'm imagining the Vulcan Pilot training manual including some part where there are instructions on flirting with Siberian women, and pick-up lines you can recite to try to get a date with them in the post-nuclear world. "Hey baby, you're looking pretty hot today, just like Eastern Europe was hot from thermonuclear fire on the last day I ever saw my home."

[@kden9772]

The pentomic army was a nightmare. Imagine being a infantryman manning a nuclear device and having to wait 2 hours to respond to a couple Soviet tank divisions beat down on you. They would either shoot first and ask questions later, or be crushed in minutes.

[@Marinealver]

Or nuked in a second.☢ In a scenario like that you really do pray that the fireball gets you before the radiation poisoning does.

[@kden9772]

@@Marinealver yea it’s really just a lose lose

[@kden9772]

@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva yes not completely mechanized but they still had at least 3 times as many soldiers in Europe as the Americans, a very large proportion of their army was mechanized 50% plus, and they had thousands upon thousands of tanks to throw at allied lines. And with the training standards of the US army in the 50s (which were severely lacking because of Ike’s budge cuts) they would have eaten up.

[@logicbomb5511]

@@kden9772 Not really, this whole Maniple system with all these sub unit is about having spares to feed in slow but still the plan wasn't so much to stand and fight but nuke away their problems, side step the irradiated crater and push into the soft rear. The US wanted to do like the fins molte tatctics or like the Chinese in Korea but with helos and short take off twin props for mobility and nukes instead of human waves to reduce pockets. They would have fought fluid likely just running from the big storm of soviet tanks and heavy arty and focus on securing remote dispersed grass field landing zones to fly in supplies troops and nukes where they can hit the mech hord at stand off range. Then just air lift everyone to one of the battle group landing zones up wind of the impact and push into the soviet rear till ya need to disperses again.

[@wes11bravo]

@@kden9772 - Col David Hackworth had good things to say about the US Army of say 1961-1965 as far training standards and professionalism goes. I'd be interested to hear your perspective about how our training was deficient compared to the Warsaw Pact as I really only have Hackworth's memoir as a reference point.

[@CommodoreKirk]

To be honest, this whole concept sounds very much to me like whoever was tasked with its creation knew very damn well how insane the idea was, and approached it with an almost malicious compliance mindset.

[@ramiere1412]

lol

[@enclavehere.7995]

Ok, but despite being ineffective, you have to admit the idea of an army solely made for nuclear combat is a neat concept, like fallout. Actually that would be a cool game, perspective of a soldier during the nuclear war (or maybe one of the battles before that)

[@netyimeni169]

It should be a film there is not that much of gameplay

[@TheHalflingLad]

After watching the video I'm under the impression NCR's flailing roughly aligns with the Pentomic doctrine, and it works terribly.

[@Whatwhat4007]

@@netyimeni169 metro exodus

[@vaultdweller1386]

@@TheHalflingLad The NCR is supposed to be a mix of the robber baron era and indian war era US, so lots of flailing is to be expected.

[@ergonamix9977]

@@netyimeni169 people will willingly/happily sit in trenches for hours at a time in milsim games, don't underestimate the raw stubbornness that people have to find something enjoyable that others find boring.

[@diestormlie]

Call me conspiratorial, but I can't help but wonder if part of the adoption of the Penatomic Division was the US Army essentially going 'look at how absurd the idea of Nuclear-only Warfare is. Please let us build for Conventional Conflicts.'

[@BattleOrder]

Nah, because that'd work against them. The conventional wisdom of the Eisenhower administration was that ground warfare in a nuclear war was irrelevent, so the Army was trying to prove that it could still be relevent. This was done only insofar as to allow the Army to still have a force that could theoretically fight conventional wars as well (as a "dual purpose" capability) because the Army believed that to still be a thing, while the Eisenhower administration did not.

[@nobodyherepal3292]

@@BattleOrder I think, having seen the types of warfare we fight today, Eisenhower was right on the money. The age of Large, industrial backed conventional wars between nations, is over. All land units seem to do these days is COIN, special force Raids, and garrison duty. No more tank battles, no mass artillery duels. No infantry charges, no multi-week/mouth slogs, no grand maneuvers or encirclements. Just endless wars that last decades against non-state actors that in the end were meaningless.

[@BattleOrder]

@@nobodyherepal3292 this is the exact opposite of what Eisenhower believed. He believed that all of those types of small wars you described wouldn’t be able to happen due to nuclear deterrence, and that nuclear big war was the only feasible type of war.

[@nobodyherepal3292]

@@BattleOrder we talking about the same Eisenhower right? The guy who used the OSS and resistance fighters to gather intelligence and weaken his opponents in the Second World War? The guy who funded the French war in Indochina and later backed south Vietnam? The guy who green lighted the planning for Bay of Pigs? Seems like Eisenhower was a big proponent of “small wars” and espionage actions.

[@Brecconable]

@@nobodyherepal3292 If so how come people like Patton went rolling with Shermans?

[@EWLR89]

With how fragile helicopters were in the 50's, any incoming nucellar strike would probably blow them out of the sky with the shock wave. So if you had 60% of them running resupply, they're gone, and that's assuming the helicopter base didn't get hit.

[@Antonio18677]

@Graf von Losinj no but god will

[@lellel6611]

@Graf von Losinj alex jones enjoyers:

[@fulcrum2951]

@Graf von Losinj arent you using a globalist invention?

[@aymonfoxc1442]

@Graf von Losinj The globalists and the bankers will finance whatever war may come if there is to be a big one because it will not only be profitable but getting it dealt with will be the only way to ensure a return to normalcy and the relatively predictable business settings they enjoy. Edit: grammar

[@Zorro9129]

@@aymonfoxc1442 A new normal, in other words.

[@MrBlueBurd0451]

I always found the 'pentomic' name a tad weird, until I found out it reorganized units into a pentenary structure compared to the regular binary or trinary.

[@Nebelkorona]

Division level atomic artillery, just WOW.

[@Theshadow12i]

That's fallout Level shit

[@AuroraAustralis_]

US Army combat doctrine in the 50s was basically, "Okay, that's pretty cool. But how can we make it fire a nuke?"

[@bruhtholemew]

I just love how they thought soldiers would really fight with nukes going off around them, as if radiation wasn't gonna slowly kill them and soldier moral wouldn't plummet.

[@neilorourke71]

My guess is that they knew, they just didn't care/wrote if off into their war expenses

[@logicbomb5511]

This is why they went pentomic, the whole idea is you needed 5 or 6 subordinate units cause nukes are likely to delete one or two and in such a radioactively toxic battle field they where gonna need a least three units to achieve a constant rotation through the front WW1 style cause there was kinda a resignation its was gonna be a very inevitable fields of Flanders kinda attrition slugging match in the context of which nukes where the salvation of their weaker land force. There was also an idea certainly in the early pentoic era that they would be the ones bringing all the nukes to the battle field and thus have the initiative with there mobility to avoid to much exposure for their own guys. This is why they where so light so they could be easily air lifted in as well as OUT, especially if you wanna start calling in danger close tactical nukes.

[@asdasd-ty9se]

@Ironandcoal umm, the French mutinies????

[@questionmaker5666]

Even today we don't know enough about radiation, but it seems to be less deadly and takes a very long time to kill you (decades). If people believe in something strongly enough they'll fight for it no matter what. Also casualty rates in WW2 were worse than WW1. The one with the lowest casualties and the best morale is the one who wins, that's what the pentomic structure aimed to do.

[@Zorro9129]

@@questionmaker5666 It depends on exposure. Acute exposure will definitely take you out of the fight for weeks, if not kill you. One can only imagine how it would impact morale.

[@SaturmornCarvilli]

I don't know if he used this as a reference, but Heinlein's Starship Troopers battle doctrine makes a lot more sense in the context of the Pentomic. Other than that, the idea is so wild in retrospect. As a war gamer, I wouldn't mind trying to table it out to get a better understanding of how its creators thought it could work. I think it also is just real enough to work as a fictitious setting where that is how war is waged.

[@webdiver9601]

Can you do a video about how the military would operate in a post nuclear war world. Like how do they ensure the continuation of the state and ensure state security.

[@nikosk3080]

What kind of "state security" after a nuclear world war? Do you think the human kind will survive? or even the mammals? Even if somehow someway someone's survive do you think we need states? for what? to start the second nuclear world war?

[@SniperFox22]

@@nikosk3080 Human kind would most definitely survive. With the exception of North America and Europe (and China), most of the world would be left pretty much unscathed. The yield and number of modern nuclear warheads are much smaller than they were during the Cold War. Remember, nuclear winter is just a theory, nobody knows what would happen in a limited or unlimited nuclear war, as it has never happened before. Obviously lots of people would die either because of starvation, fallout or the nuclear blasts themselves, but humanity would most certainly survive. I am also fairly confident that we wouldn't even 'go back to the stone age'. This doesn't mean we shouldn't avoid a nuclear war at all costs, but the historical alarmism of nuclear weapons being capable of wiping every one of us off the planet is outdated.

[@Allen667sjja]

The IRS is supposed to resume collecting taxes like a day after a nuclear strike lol

[@CalamitasCalliope]

I don't think there would be much of a state to secure after a nuclear war, at least not one we could recognize. Like someone else said, some humans would survive somewhere, but most major powers would be wiped out. The few surviving people would rebuild new governments, since that's something we as a species has done over and over again

[@gmodrules123456789]

There wouldn’t really be a state after a nuclear war. I imagine the areas hit hardest would look like Afghanistan with everything controlled by warlords. Other countries might continue to endure, though I think big countries would end up breaking apart due to instability.

[@Drknow1984]

I got a little excited to see a new Battle Order vid. Thanks for the content, truly enjoy it!

[@BattleOrder]

More to come!

[@JinKee]

Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a field strip of the H&K G11, the failed caseless weapon of the nuclear age. it carried its full load of 150 rounds of ammo on the gun itself, had smooth plastic sides that could easily be decontaminated with soap and was designed so you couldn’t clean the barrel because the soldiers using it would be nuked to death before it would ever need cleaning.

[@juj9305]

✨

[@jimmydesouza4375]

"Easily decontaminated by soap" "designed so you can't clean the barrel because you'll be dead by then" How do guys like you type such nonsense and not recognize blatant self contradiction like this?

[@JinKee]

@@jimmydesouza4375 fallout gets on you and your gear at a faster rate than you can shoot, so they hose down the gun and reissue it two or three times until it jams or the next guy uses up all the ammo on the gun, whichever comes first. there is no contradiction.

[@jimmydesouza4375]

@@JinKee See how you changed your claim? Nuked to death becomes die from fallout? Also it takes multiple weeks to die from ARS when you have obscene dosages. You aren't even noticeably sick for the first fortnight or so. If you're in a "war" where it takes you multiple weeks to fire off 150 rounds then...

[@sevenman9672]

@@JinKee What design documentation are you sourcing this from?

[@johnxina987]

“Mankind invented the atomic bomb, but no mouse would ever construct a mousetrap.” -Albert Einstein

[@user_____M]

Mankind will at some point be able to destroy stars simply because of technological progress. -me, random internet guy

[@pyeitme508]

Also I don't know how would WW3 be like but WW4 would be thought by sticks & stones.

[@siyacer]

-500 social credit points

[@mathewferstl7042]

tf you doing here now, go back to china uncensored

[@李倩-o6v]

based name and pfp

[@logicbomb5511]

Indeed the Pentomic army reliance on nukes was an issue and its certainly was an attrition approach with these sacrificial battle groups but mobility and equipment certainly where not the issue it was conscription really. They had plenty of the tactical nukes by 53 and all this mobility is more strategic in that they are air mobile not by helos but by short take off and landing props. C-123 (originally the last US assault glider) an early contemporary of the later c130 and this was in the days when the army had tons of fixed wing light transports instead of big choppers but they did the same thing provided a lot of the mobility. Yeah air fields with a tower, radar and a runway that can support jets are target #1 for nukes but some empty grass field strip that is just a field, not so much but its enough for flying kit in and out. All these extra sub units in BGs and Divs is not about having a bunch of pieces on the board at once but having spare's in the back pocket (england, maldeves, Greenland) you can fly in when other gets nuked or to reinforce and concentrate for the big push. Problem is its a conscript army built for feeding men into the thermonuclear meat grinder and though they actually though it would be good for small wars like Korea or counter insurgency as you see them try and fight Vietnam out of fire bases packed in out of the back of prop transports on dirt improvised strips. Also don't forget this was putting tones of nukes in the hands of Conscript Junior NCO kids which really killed things as it made the public doomsday weary.

[@kael629]

I'm expecting an army fully clothed with thick layers of protective clothing, gas mask and unhealthy fascination to shovels and bayonets.

[@riccardocarretta3308]

Ah yes *the Death korps of Krieg*

[@nepnepguythegreatestofall]

@@riccardocarretta3308 *Death Korp of Krieg, Born to Compete, Never Retreat!*

[@vincentcedric-4449]

Dont forget abouth the suicidal stuff

[@slightlyistorical1776]

I like the sound of the U.S. Death Korps of War

[@1856gaming]

Death Korps of Krieg

[@Salt0fTheEarth]

Interestingly, the Soviet Ground Forces made major reorganizations under a similar rationale but by contrast they were pretty permanent and still inform Russian military doctrine today.

[@maean7410]

all soldiers are still trained to work with roentgen counters, anti radiation equipment and so on, or at least i think so

[@easytiger6570]

​@@maean7410More like "supposed to"

[@obiwankenobi4252]

To be honest, I find amusing how nobody, be it in the Army, Joint Chiefs, or the DoD, ever questioned how the soviets wouldn’t escalate the nuclear exchange the instant the Army started throwing low-yield nukes as if they were 8’ HE shells

[@michaelmccabe3079]

They assumed the Soviets were already going all-out in a future war. The idea of the USSR showing any restraint in using nukes was something they disbelieved completely in. Restraint was for proxies; a war against the USSR directly was assumed to be a no-holds-barred fight to extinction.

[@me67galaxylife]

@michaelmccabe3079 And indeed, the soviets plans against NATO always included nuclear strikes. Although whether NATO or the USSR would actually use them and cross the no-coming-back line is another debate.

[@mikepalmer1971]

I think it was all theater and an excuse to feed the military industrial complex. I think pretty quickly both sides understood neither side was going to start anything.

[@Drak976]

@@mikepalmer1971 Oh yeah more and more the entire cold war strikes me as a scam to deplete our wealth and and liberties on both sides. People make fun of it but billions of $ really were spent building underground bunkers and tunnels like the ones they deny then bragged about using to evac congress on Jan 6. Q people say muh tunnels and everyone laughs. Then WaPo brags about same tunnels. Inderasting. I mean to be fair people really are sheep so it's inevitable someone will lead them around.

[@benniotto]

Wow! Another excellent video. I’m curious if you ever plan to cover the Soviet Army’s equivalent of the “Pentomic Army”-known as the “Revolution in Military Affairs.” By comparison, the Soviet approach seems to have been a much more reliable method of dealing with a nuclear battlefield.

[@deltaraider87]

Nice name..

[@VT-mw2zb]

The Soviet's approach, well, depends on which level you are talking about. Khrushchev wanted to put everything into the nuclear basket and shave down the army. He is actually pretty close to Eisenhower: small conventional force and willingness to use nuclear weapons. Of course, that was stepping on the toes of the ground force marshalls, so Khrushchev was kicked out. I should also note, that Eisenhower knew about this problem, and warned everyone of the MICC. As a result, the Soviet Union was spending 20-25% of GDP on its military and that bankrupted the Soviet Union. Their approach to conventional forces on a nuclear battlefield is essentially "everyone gets a BMP or BTR".

[@itsmannertime]

@@VT-mw2zb Khrushchev didn't necessarily have a willingness to use nukes, he was big on bluffing to cover up their relatively small number of ICBMs compared to the US. The Cuba gamble was Khrushchev trying to get their shorter range missiles close enough to threaten the US mainland and make up for the shortfall. But Eisenhower and Khrushchev were right, any direct war between the US and USSR was probably gonna turn into a nuclear exchange pretty quick.

[@eduardopupucon]

@@itsmannertime this makes no sense, by the time of the cuban missile crisis, the soviets had the ability to put humans in space, the vostok capsule was 4 tons so if they can put 4 tons in orbit they could definetly deploy nukes on the US (3000km downrange), not counting the fact that the R-7 rocket was initially built as an ICBM

[@itsmannertime]

@@eduardopupucon they had some that were capable, but they had a smaller number of ICBMs early on and had to play catch up

[@frederf3227]

The talk of the ground surveillance radar really makes me want to know more about post-WWII reconnaissance (namely land).

[@expandedhistory]

Currently working on a video on post-WWII reconnaissance, in particular the Untied States Army! Stay tuned brother!

[@chucksneed1264]

Look up DARPA's 'Forester' program

[@pax6833]

The ironic thing is that when you were describing this army concept and calling it a harkening back to World War I, I was actually thinking these kinds of formations are way older. They're reminiscent of Napoleonic infantry. Each corp group operating and marching independently, rapidly concentrating before attack, using artillery to devastate an enemy front line, advancing in column, relying on an unconventional method of supply. This is, for a T, the modern equivalent of the Napoleonic corps system. Had the technology been there to solve the technical problems, I'd actually be very curious in how it would've performed in battle. One of the benefits of the old Corps system in the Napoleonic era was that it maneuvered far faster than traditional line infantry formations of the time. Theoretically, the defensive vulnerability of each company would be lessened under the idea that the companies would move and attack faster than enemies could. I at least have to give the architects of the Pentomic army concept points for forethought and creativity. They were trying to think of fighting the next war, rather than the more traditional problem armies have, trying to fight the last war.

[@DoggyHateFire]

This kind of stuff is so interesting. It's amazing how nonchalant policy makers were about using atomic weapons. In a way, it wasn't the worst thing that the Soviet Union got the bomb so soon after the US. Personally, I think one side having a monopoly on such weapons and who could use them with impunity would have been more dangerous than the two sides who could keep each other in check. It must be emphasized that both are very bad. I don't know the specific details, but the reorganization sounds similar to what the Army did when they established the brigade combat team (BCT) a decade ago.

[@Gehwagenschieber]

New conspiracy theory: the army gave nukes to the Russians to create the nuclear stalemate which makes conventional war more likely and thereby to stay relevant (I know it's bullshit). Sounds like something the IJA/IJN inter service rivalry would come up with though

[@guatanamabuddha754]

I'm not so sure about your conspiracy but the benefit of both sides having these weapons is that conventional wars against near peer world powers such as the USSR, US, and china are now seen as absurd, these weapons have spared all of us from a lifetime of anguish and have granted us a stale peace. Sadly all things must come to an end and should Taiwan be invaded by china it is almost certain China retaliation against resistance will go nuclear as they have made such threats to australia and Japan already, and if japan goes into the fight then we are obligated to assist

[@Zorro9129]

As horrid as the Soviets were, that is a valid point. The only reason the Soviets were a superpower in the first place was because of American military interventionism, so if it was even _more_ unconstrained than the Cold War who knows how bad it would get.

[@netyimeni169]

@@guatanamabuddha754 no one would actually use nukes over small island they just trying to scare each other

[@LordVader1094]

@@guatanamabuddha754 Conspiracy? What conspiracy?

[@piatpotatopeon8305]

This was really good I've seen the old Big Picture episode covering the pentomic army structure, but you really provided necessary context to really understand it.

[@Laikafan02]

YES I WAS SEARCHING FOR THIS VIDEO THANK YOU 🙏🙏🙏

[@Euro2610]

I read the Pentomic books and materials but the graphics really help put it into perspective. Keep up the good work yo!

[@mnlivestreaming6713]

Australia adopted the "Pent..." concept as the "Pentropic" division following this US idea, between Malaya / Borneo and Vietnam engagements ie from about 1960 to 1964. It was tried, found to be highly flawed and dropped by the time Australia committed to Vietnam. It was basically bad doctrine - especially considering we did not have the tac nukes to back up the deployments. We reverted to the WW2/British brigade model but called them Task Forces until 1982.

[@aps125]

US Army Armored Brigade Combat Team (ABCT) may undergo another round of reorganization. Major changes are the followings: 1) Some ABCT may lose its Cavalry Squadron and replace it with a Recon Troop. The parent division HQ will gain its own armored recon squadron instead. 2) One of the brigade’s three Combined Arms Battalions (CAB) will gain Robotic Combat Vehicle - Medium (RCV-M) company. 3) the two combat engineer companies under Brigade Engineer Battalion will have identical TO&E. One company’s route clearance unit will be removed. 4) Military Intelligence Company under Brigade Engineer Battalion will gain an EW warfare platoon as originally planned 5) Some changes in the number and positions of mechanics under Brigade Support Battalion to accommodate the changes listed above.

[@opdz000]

This is a great video. Hope that you can make this a series and make videos about U.S army organizations later in the cold war, like the ROAD (Reorganization Objective Army Divisions) in the 60s and Division 86 in the 80s.

[@edsutherland8266]

I can see certain parallels between the Pentomic Division and current USMC (& to a lesser extent Army) planning. A reliance on widely dispersed operations, the assumption that technology can make up for lack of manpower etc. That’s not to say it can’t be done, but rather that hoping your enemy adapts to suit your ideal unit structure is risky. The idea of having a ‘good enough’ basic structure that can adapt to fit the situation might be better. I liked the basic concepts behind Pentomic. If they’d gone for battle groups of two Battalions each, you’d have had something pretty close to the early 2000s Brigade Combat Team concept!

[@rickytorres8566]

Look at the French army since 1956, they have Regiments that are the same size and share the same rough structure (5 maneuver companies) and they've used it very successfully mostly because they can form smaller mini Battalion type task forces.

[@republicofchernarus2190]

My father was part of a nuclear artillery unit in Turkey. They were not allowed to have small arms, for whatever reason.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

Not even a pistol?

[@amraniussilber5244]

How would they defend themselves?

[@perpetualconfusion5885]

​@@amraniussilber5244 with his nuclear cannon!

[@amraniussilber5244]

@@perpetualconfusion5885 lmao

[@sexhaver32_31]

@@perpetualconfusion5885 4 soviet spies break into my american military base, I climb my stairs and fire my davy crockett nuclear bomb at him- just as the founding fathers intended

[@ObssesedNuker]

It's interesting to compare this to the corresponding developments in the Soviet Army at the time. While the Soviets went on a parrallel track of hybrid nuclear/conventional war, they went about it in a different way. Under the concept of "total nuclear missile war", the Soviets sought to integrate nuclear weaponry with their conventional forces without the pentomics method of trying to entirely reform unit organization around the demands of a nuclear environment.

[@animeemail8902]

Which is probably why all Russian weapons systems can exchange their conventional payloads for nuclear ones.

[@Coillcara]

From the Soviet Army manual: "In the event of a nuclear explosion, the soldier must hold his weapon at outstretched arms so that molten metal does not ruin his uniform and boots". ;)

[@extrabytes7191]

Since you already have series on the VDV, i'd suggest doing a video on intended VDV operations during the cold war. They were meant to infiltrate behind enemy lines, and im curious to know how the soviets intended to lift entire brigades of forces trough the allied air defence network. Also because I love anything cold war related, nice video.

[@ФедяКрюков-в6ь]

Nuke the frontline air defences then fly over the ruins to the exposed rear areas. Or, in less apocalyptic scenario, just use VDV as a reserve force with the highest strategic mobility possible in order to exploit a breakthrough made by more conventional forces.

[@thomas_jay]

Interesting. IMHO something like this (dispersion of smaller independant forces) might re-emerge due to heavy russian artillery forces and/or US american air power which essentially replace the tactical nukes. Modern communication, surveillance (radar and drones) and the high degree of mobility would make this viable.

[@TheArklyte]

I like how you left "and" in as if there is any chance to see joint UN SC military intervention.

[@SniperFox22]

It has already re-emerged. Recent strategy documents produced by the Army and the Marines are already calling for a new doctrine based on dispersion in the Indo-Pacific. China's long range precision fires would cause to much destruction to the current non-dispersed US military in the Indo-Pacific. Unlike in the 50s, today the military actually has the technology and capabilities to effectively disperse while at the same time remain combat effective.

[@Delgen1951]

@@TheArklyte the chance of that was and is none exstant, as any one perment securty council would/could veto it.

[@carlnebrin]

Conventional artillery and air power has not replaced tactical nuclear weaponry.

[@SniperFox22]

@pootis That's right, it is so obvious yet it didn't occur to me. Now thinking about it, it's probably a combination of both

[@alifio2183]

Meanwhile in other side of the world: A:Comrade capitalist pigs have nukes! I: we shall design a tank capable of surviving the shockwave! And then they made 4 tracks UFO.... Object 279

[@SniperFox22]

Great vid as always. Are you planning to make a video about the Army's new MDO concept? It is similarly based on dispersion, not because of nuclear weapons, but because of the destructiveness of conventional long range fires.

[@MitchJohnson0110]

If anyone is interested in this and visits Las Vegas I HIGHLY recommend seeing the Atomic Testing Museum. As most of the testing for these weapons was done in the Nevada desert. You used to be able to see mushroom clouds from Fremont Street. Very cool museum.

[@ab5olut3zero95]

The Trinity Site is open for visitation as well, IIRC.

[@Doughboy842]

The thought of sending US Soldiers through a nuclear hellscape would had been a nightmare. Not to mention the nuclear fallout radiation that would be everywhere.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

Such a thing would only work in the fallout universe.

[@BoostedPastime]

​@@Baldwin-iv445 power armor

[@Baldwin-iv445]

@@BoostedPastime Again, only in the fallout universe.

[@Bladeofdeath311]

eh. Not really Outside is pretty well ventilated. Air-burst detonation both minimizes fallout production and maximizes the effect of the shockwave on materiel. The gamma burst and neutron radiation would be bad, but if your division isn't marching until after the explosion there's not too terribly much of a radiation hazard. N-16 and Ar-41 would decay away in a few minutes, probably before you got there, Ar-41 would be high up in the atmosphere and be well dispersed.

[@concept5631]

That's one way to out-do the trenches of WW1 in sheer brutality.

[@dochiq]

Very interesting. Would be nice to see that in contrast to the considerations of the West German Bundeswehr in the fifties and sixties which also faced the problem of how to design an army structure for the nuclear battlefield.

[@realQuiGon]

Yeah, the Bundeswehr put a lot of effort on being able to fight in a nuclear environment (as Germany would have been ground zero if the Cold War would have gone hot). Even today it still retains a relatively high standard in regards to nuclear protection in training and equipment compared to other western armies.

[@ronbates1795]

I rotated ack to the US as the brigade concept was beginning to replace the pentomic divisions. I truly loved my time in the 3rd I D MP detachment 61-63.

[@cadenbigler]

my gosh... nuclear war before ICMBs would have been hell. Of course nuclear war would have been hell with ICBMs as well, but it's just crazy to think nukes would just be being lobbed around. What an insane time to be alive.

[@fabianherrmann6398]

Very interesting watch. Seems to me that with the network centric warfare concept the US Army returned to the Pentomic ideas of dispersion yet integration of assets and flexibility, while the sort of "logic bomb" of information warfare and hybrid conflicts has replaced the nuke in this regard.

[@SniperFox22]

I was thinking the same. It looks like today the technology actually exists to pull dispersion off.

[@ekonomija8718]

What do you mean by logic bomb ?

[@fabianherrmann6398]

@@ekonomija8718 A logic bomb is a term for a specific function of a computer virus attack but I use it here in juxtaposition to a nuclear bomb. This way I mean it as an expression for the various ways a faction can attack an enemy using information technology: disinformation, disruption of communication networks and disabling sensors or recon assets and also destroying vital infrastructure as well as undermining moral and will to fight of military and civilians alike. A cyber attack nowadays can just be as devastating as a nuke to any modern belligerent.

[@socius00]

@@fabianherrmann6398 The evidence for the existence of any of these supposed logic bombs is pretty scant, and if you look at the capabilities demonstrated at pretty much every level to date I think it's fair to say the next war won't include a surprise computer virus that disables a country in any meaningful way.

[@cedriceric9730]

@@ekonomija8718 networked warfare is more lethal than nukes. The whole concept adds up to a " logic" bomb I guess

[@TheGrenadier97]

Excellent presentation! The battle orders and doctrines at these tense years were really interesting.

[@TheMajorActual]

The Pentomic Concept -- Proof, positive, that having worn a uniform successfully is no reason to have a blanket pass on thinking.

[@flyback_driver]

Lt giving the ramp brief " alright gents we just nuked there line and we are going to take advantage of the opening..." "Wait you are trying to send us through the shit? Nah, shoot me sir."

[@originalpastaman5470]

Classic Army overthinking: US ARMY: "Let's build this convoluted new organization, relying on nothing but assumptions pulled directly from our asses and technology that either doesn't yet exist or that is assumed to work flawlessly the way we intend it to. SOVIET ARMY: "How will our forces survive in a nuclear war comrade? just build a shit ton of tanks and APCs and don't stop till we reach the Rhine. LMAO comrade!"

[@asdasd-ty9se]

The Rhine? They were aiming for Tarifa to the south and Belmullet to the west

[@chieficeworm]

Ha! I was in the pentomic army (1960 - 1963). I never did understand what had happened to the old unit organizations (batalion, etc.).

[@nilloc93]

looking at that org chart made me think of the soviet army commanders in 1941/42 when you realize that an army commander (with no corps org level) would have 12+ divisions under him and sometimes in excess of 20 independent battalion to brigade sized units also. The information overload would have been intense.

[@KB4QAA]

I was never aware of this concept. Thanks!

[@joshtwyman6319]

Would anyone else be interested in a dedicated video on how the US army was organized before and during ww2 with the regular active , reserve, national guard and army of the United States (draftees and enlisted during the war) how they operated together and how they determined what units a regular infantryman would be assigned to at the beginning of the war

[@concept5631]

Yes

[@ambssdr-h]

Shouldn't a 4th fatal flaw be that all of your soldiers are going to get sick and die from acute radiation poisoning shortly after marching through the bombed front line?

[@arsic094]

Well, that takes hours...

[@ФедяКрюков-в6ь]

Tactical nukes are actually quite 'clean'. I mean, it would take years for the radiation of such magnitude to take effect, more than the army needs them to last anyway.

[@questionmaker5666]

@@ФедяКрюков-в6ь The WHO says that 30-40 people died from radiation poisoning at Chernobyl and for most didn't even shorten life expectancy. The war would be over by then.

[@booglywoogly566]

​@questionmaker5666 well no one sat down and actually tracked the people effected so we really don't know.

[@crabwalkarms7347]

Like ya added Elvis Presley in the vid. Gotta respect the man for no running from the draft and was in a combat MOS ( I know it was "peace time). I am pretty sure his unit was the 3rd Armored Divison

[@SarkastikObserver]

This sounds cool and badass on paper but I’m sure I’d be scared shitless to be a part of this unit

[@warrenlehmkuhleii8472]

11:33 When you have to drive the kids to school at 7, but you have to fight for Uncle Sam at 8.

[@Lancasterlaw1175]

I would say that the assumption that everything inside the nukes blast radius would be destroyed and that the enemy could take the breach faster than the enemy could reinforce were both untested, particularly against vehicles and on entrenchments or uneven terrain

[@johnmarston2616]

This is extremely interesting. What surprises me is that this concept is not a part of modern U.S. LSCO doctrine, even though counterforce nuclear strikes are, and we seemingly have the capability to implement this doctrine given modern technology and capability.

[@lijahjones3844]

it’s go crazy they were really gon tell the infantry “so you’re gonna launch a nuke at their defense and then walk right through the blast zone mhm”

[@utahraptor4729874]

This is peak atompunk.

[@chrisnewport7826]

What the Armyy came up with was the Airmobile Divisions, helicopter supported Infantry units that in a limited nuclear war in Europe would be dispersed to avoid being proper targets the come together to attack then disperse again. At the Army War College it was found unworkable, there would be so many nukes available that even small groups could be hit.

[@Zorro9129]

They actually turned the Army into this? Being a foot soldier you would be even more expendable than before!

[@cluelessdev3851]

YES! I was so waiting for this video

[@walterhartwellwhite7924]

So they tried to make the death korps of kreig

[@Jim-rc3mk]

Great Battle Group but don’t forget Atelier Battle Team ZX. I trained soldiers specifically to use GX2 gas with at least 20 rapid fire bazooka batteries with 2-3 men firing 34 rounds of ammunition with solid fuel 2 batteries cord desalination firing ZOBO bombs.

[@joekurtz8303]

Col. D.H. Hackworth's book About Face addresses the Pentomic structure debacle in his views.

[@connorhart7597]

Kinda crazy to see how the pentomic army molded the way the army does things in small ways here and there. Like in column movement, with mined wired obstacles, individual soldier movement, etc.

[@crabwalkarms7347]

So the idea of dispersion helped push the US to become one of the most mobile capable militaries in the world. Largest air lift capacity and largest navy i know Russia still has more ground vehicles but they are mostly outdated tech (not exactly useless)

[@marsbanditnyc9043]

It’s crazy to think that we could have easily gone down a road where small yield nuclear weapons are conventional weapons and where wars would have been fought without regards to servicemen’s safety.

[@marishiten5944]

Oh, like the modern US military!

[@phantomvmfa122]

Could you do a video on the Army of Excellence concept that the U.S. Army developed in the 1980s?

[@jonathansitell857]

love your videos

[@Marinealver]

Time to play Supreme Commander or Planetary Annihilation. See how a T1 bot does compared to a nuke.

[@shadow7988]

I mean it's terribly ironic given the video. Once nukes are on the field in SupCom the ground armies, navies, and air force are all kind of pointless and it comes down to nukes and anti-nuke defences.

[@RodrigoSilvaBarros]

In my opinion, a pentomic divison makes sense as a support’s division of a conventional military division which is being encircled by the enemy.

[@Brecconable]

This reminds me of how similar the US Marine Divisions are with their TOE.

[@jayowens7357]

It didn't fail, it just never needed to be used.

[@siyacer]

I need a Hoi4 division for this

[@nicholasstilley2370]

1:41 I like that you worked in late 50s Army Elvis, very atomic age

[@AlexSDU]

1:41 Is that Elvis? Look like him.

[@BattleOrder]

Yes

[@TheOnlyBiodude]

The idea that the millitary thought folks would be chucking nukes around like regular missles during warfare is hillarious if not concerning.

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

It worked to the extent that the Soviets never launched any attack in Europe nor did they attempt another Korea. Even in Vietnam the Communist bloc did not expect US involvement and elsewhere avoided confrontation with US forces.

[@Valiguss]

You know where this would make a lot of sense, fallout,where tactical nukes for small infantry units in bathe form of the fat man would be readily deployable, and combined with power armor which would significantly enhance the ability of these combat teams to be independent by providing armor and firepower with less supply chain and make these foot mobile attacks more feasible Combined with a world where oil was scarce and therefore mechanized warfare was less viable this could have really been a premier organizational structure

[@marishiten5944]

Fallout is a video game, dude. It's not real. I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

[@TMoDDD]

I imagine some Stalker stuff like soldiers wearing high tech anti rad suits with exoesqueletons and tanks with weird designs.

[@majormei4284]

Very cool thumbnail!

[@andrewtimothy1937]

This is awesome and kind of eye opening. In history class we were basically just taught that the US and Soviets basically just held out waiting for the other to launch nukes. I never even thought to consider if either side had plans for a post nuke war strategies

[@BackwoodsTruther]

Woah we really tried to make the Enclave?

[@proudamerican183]

Yeah. Makes you realize how close we were to Fallout being a real thing.

[@j.dunlop8295]

Nukem, nukem till they glow, then nuke them again. Speculation and more spec. As a child, my father loaded nuclear weapons on aircraft, we as young children used sneak on to that SAC base 1960s, through the fences to go swimming! Funny not ha, ha! He, later inspected lost nuclear weapons, in Spain.

[@flufflepuffle6229]

Well learning about the Pentomic experiment it is really no wonder why a similar tactic was used in Vietnam later with poor success. Seeing as the start of the war was at the end of this experiment. Especially to note, all the isolated pockets of infantry camped up with only helicopter resupply, huge gaps between them allowing enemy to flow to and fro undetected.

[@xionkuriyama5697]

I like the assumption that it would be completely fine to just stroll into the ground zero of the nuke you just set off five minutes ago

[@BulletRain100]

It's not an assumption. The US did a great deal of testing on the matter and knew that the fallout from low yield nuclear weapons did not produce enough of a radiation dose to pose any health risk if a person walks straight through the blast zone.

[@paperswan]

@@BulletRain100 Hiroshima and Nagasaki

[@BulletRain100]

@@paperswan Exactly. The evaluation of those two cities showed that pretty much all the known issues of radiation sickness and other negative radiation effects were caused by the initial radiation from the blast. The expected effects of fallout were so minor that it was impossible to distinguish what was caused by fallout and what was natural. Our understanding of fallout came from two tragic events in further testing in the South Pacific. One involved a fishing vessel that inadvertently was hit by fallout. The sailors would have been fine with a quick decontamination, but they unfortunately stayed covered by the fallout for a very long time, when the cumulative radiation eventually produced sickness and killed the crew. The lesson there is that fallout kills by staying on a person for a while. Going through a blast new zone and cleaning yourself on the other side is perfectly safe as long as the total exposure isn't more than a few hours. The older the blast is allows a person to stay longer in the blast zone, with the worst bast zones perfectly safe continuous human occupation after a week or two. The second incident involved an island rendered inhospitable due to fallout. It's perfectly safe for a person to live on the island, but the fruit trees collected radioactive isotopes in the fruit. That fruit was a staple crop for the natives and couldn't live on the island without importing food.

[@visvge4934]

Those were not low yield tactical nukes lol

[@nobodyherepal3292]

Yes! My favorite organization of military units!

[@canadadelendaest8687]

When I went to OSUT I was assigned to 2BN/58IN (C 2-58) which was part of a Pentomic division before it became a basic training battalion. Pretty neat

[@rose_city-86o51]

This was highly interesting

[@notoriginal8450]

Where can I find a picture of the dude in the thumbnail. He looks badass

[@Ajc-ni3xn]

fun fact: the game Terra Invicta has a tech upgrade that makes armies more resistant to nukes by using some of these tactics i think. could be wrong tho

[@uniball5667]

Man, so does this mean the Pentomic Army is viable now? We have the helicopters, we have the Mechanized Infantry, our armored units have radiation protection, we have the air resupply. The only real problem is the spreading out of battlegroups. We would probably want trench lines and underground bunkers to protect against nuclear artillery at strong points, while the battlegroups act as "feelers" extending from these strong points to keep themselves from concentrating too much, while being close enough to support each other when on the attack and defense. Since nuclear weapons are usually built to airburst, building trenches similar to Germany on the Western front during WW1, with massive underground blockhouses and defense-in-depth trench systems wouldn't be a bad idea. And if you build special "bunker buster" nukes, well you'll spread so much radioactive material that any attack made would be a death sentence for those in the attack, and it would be so concentrated to that area other sections of trench line and bunkers would be mostly unharmed. Idk, Does this seem like a viable strategy?

[@eatafox]

The mind set that brought about this fighting doctrine is a scary reality.

[@natowaveenjoyer9862]

Panicking over strategists formulating strategies to defend the nation and its interests is a smoothbrain take.

[@bobdmz6437]

I’ve always been interested in how people thought about nuclear wars in the 50s and 60s (When nuclear war wasn’t just instant game over). The thought of a large scale World War, using low powered Nukes like conventional bombs, is absolutely terrifying; Maybe even more so than the world just ending in a day. The 1959 book “Alas Babylon” does a good job of explaining something similar.

[@falco919]

Honey! Brendon from battle order has posted again

[@HopeisAnger]

To be fair to Eisenhower predictions, he probably didn't expect America to be the aggressor in every war since his presidency.

[@Misfit33]

First off, great video! Very interesting subject, fantastic presentation, excellent production value. However, there is one, tiny nitpick... The U.S. Army abbreviation for "Company" is "Co". The British Army abbreviation for "Company" is "Coy". As a veteran of the U.S. Army and also a 'veteran' of military gaming, seeing the British "Coy" used on a U.S. Army table of organization gave me the shakes. No disrespect to our faithful allies in the British Army intended. British Infantry is most certainly some of the finest in the world. Anyway, sorry for nitpicking in an otherwise fascinating video. Couldn't help myself! ;) Keep up the good work!

[@BattleOrder]

On this channel we use three letter abbreviations for all unit echelons for consistency and clarity

[@Misfit33]

@@BattleOrder Fair enough! Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.