Bayonets on muzzle loaders vs breech loading rifles

Looking at bayonets and how they are mounted to rifles and muskets, together with some discussion about the differences and how they were used.
/ historicalfencing

[@grozaAC]

Some excellent points made here, there are a lot of accounts from the Napoleonic era that describe bayonet charges. They rarely land - but that's because it's difficult to convince people to stand and receive one. Very effective psychological tool.

[@wierdalien1]

Shaun Watson thats why they were used. one of the few times that someone did stand was the british allied army at waterloo against the middle guard

[@fabiovarra3698]

you mean the old guard

[@wierdalien1]

Fabio Varrà no i mean the middle guard.

[@joejoelesh1197]

Lindy made a vid on this.

[@tucnaci_z_prahy]

Just look at the 20th Maine at Gettysburg - the regiments defending and assaulting the Little Round Top took tremendous losses in gun battle and did not break - desperate bayonet charge (ordered because 20th burned through ammunition) broke the Confederate units mostly by psychological impact. Gun battle is a roulette, bayonet is someone deliberately telling you he's going to spike you...

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Enjoying the recent bayonet content Matt. One thing that struck me was that here, and in one of your last clips, you demonstrate the use of the butt. Viewing the movement from the front it was particularly apparent of how much room it takes up, with the bayonet being (necessarily) pitch-forked over the shoulder. In the context of the use of the weapon in action, with troops formed in close order (albeit somewhat disordered due to ground, speed of advance or simply the general nature of the evolution), that would leave little room for such a motion without endangering the man next to you. Although mentioned in other texts, I might speculate that this may have been a consideration in not including it (generally) in the bayonet exercise... thoughts?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hi! Perhaps, although in the earlier periods when they might be standing that close to each other they also had longer muskets, so it's difficult to pin down cause and effect. I think the sort of bayonet use shown in Angelo or Hutton is more about one-on-one combat, where a soldier finds himself pitted against one other opponent for a moment.

[@mariusdragoe2888]

Finally back to thrusting work!

[@scholagladiatoria]

Right now?

[@shadowblaster124]

Don't ever stop making these videos. Your channel is one of the best

[@TheSoling27]

Word of Warning don't try this at HOME -- but the bayonet WILL penetrate -- I had a nearly fatal incident while filming a re-enactment of the American RevWar -- to set the scene picture Loyalist bayoneting a rebel as he falls backwards (me) -- after many many dry runs without incident we moved to the real take -- which was amazing as my reaction was perfect -- shock and horror ...well I landed wrong just as the thrust hit home -- he pinned me to the ground -- and left a welt along my ribcage beside my heart -- point is it went easily thru 4 layers of wool and 6 layers of linen (coat, waistcoat and shirt) and stuck 3" in the ground ... had a pint or two after -- laughed off the near disaster and now I have a cool "real" hole in my kit -- cheers and keep up the great videos... Scott

[@scholagladiatoria]

Lucky!!

[@TheSoling27]

yup -- pints tasted good after that -- and NEVER AGAIN --LOL

[@leevibyman9399]

Chee, that is... I don't even know what to say...

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Scott Turrall if it sounds insane but works, it's still insane... I assume you got great photos out of your near death by impaling experience? XD

[@duchessskye4072]

Great work. I applaud your completely sensible way of doing things

8:42 How on Earth did you say this with a straight face?

[@DonWoschto]

By being a grown man, I assume.

[@fleurdelispens]

thrusting your shaft into your opponent?

[@Gew219]

fleurdelispens But don't forget that overpenetration is bad.

[@brackonstudios]

This is one instance where unscrewing your pommel and throwing it at the enemy is not advised.

[@smooth_sundaes5172]

They didn't like it up ''em

[@phileas007]

Don't forget to pull out ....

[@petev.6598]

Or you could just attack the opponent with your butt.

[@HipposHateWater]

That aside, that SMLE + bayonet package is beyond gorgeous.

[@icfubar9150]

My Grandfather, WW I vet, said stuck (never mentioned over penetrated bayonets) were freed by discharging the rifle loosening the whole affair for retraction from the victim. First issued the Ross (CDN) and later 'Smellies'. As for cuts from bayonets he spotted a scar on his hip that stopped and then restarted above the belt line. Obviously someone tried to pitchfork him. When asked all he would say was that the Bosch almost got him on that one. This was at Passchendaele holding a 'bridge' when their position was largely overrun and just held.

[@Elmarby]

Aha! So there's the Wilkinson. I commented at the time that I was surprised to not see one in the video where you showed off the Enfield. It had never occurred to me that someone with your collection of blades would not have one at hand. Such a good looking combination. It does the primary job of a bayonet, intimidation, perfectly.

[@ottopike737]

remember kids, when someone gets too close "grab your butt and thrust".

[@EldarKinSlayer]

Matt, the Snider doesn't use a Percussion Cap, the .577 Snider Cartridge comes complete with a primer ;)

[@scholagladiatoria]

Oh yes, of course :-)

[@Gimpzomg]

The bayonet on a G3 rifle is mounted above the barrel. Since the blowback action is placed above the barrel there is enough space, and the bayonet itself is not only held in place by a lug, but has the whole rifle behind it.

[@skeptiker0124]

Hi Matt, at 2.04 you said there are not much medical information of people being killed by bayonets. But it was well kown in the american civil war, that a man being boddy-wounded with a triangular bayonet usualy died because of the heavy wound. At this time there was no chance to close the wound and the soldier would bleed to death. Hope this was helpfull :-) and sorry for my poor english

[@armynurseboy]

Remember, long bayonets were intended to give Infantry a weapon of sufficient length to fend off cavalry (in lieu of pikes). With the demise of cavalry as a practical combat arm, also contributed to the shortening of bayonets.

[@leevibyman9399]

This morning after breakfast (I'm from the Midwestern US) I pulled up youtube and looked to see if you'd uploaded a new video... nothing. Resigned to have to wait till tomorrow for a new video, I went about my daily activities. Got back from some errands and out of curiosity looked to see if you had a new video, and was pleasantly surprised. That wasn't in anyway adding anything useful to this comments section, but... Someone else commented on the use of spades in WWI as weapons. I think that it would be very interesting if you did a video about them. Last year in English class we read through All Quiet on the Western Front (and researched WWI), and there was mention that bayonets were disliked, as they often jammed in the chest, and instead of them sharpened spades were used (as they were quite capable of cleaving the head from the shoulders). So, basically, I personally would find it interesting if you did a video on the use of spades as weapons in WWI (maybe it's not in your area of specialty though). By the way, if you have read All Quiet on the Western front, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I would recommend you read it when you have time. Read it with your wife or a friend, so you can talk about it. For me, it was the very best book I've ever read... very powerful. Leevi P.S. Sorry for making this so long a comment (with very little useful information in it). I will try to keep following comments short and (possibly?) useful.

[@ryanrex7273]

Great content on bayonets, Matt! There is excellent anecdote from WWI demonstrating how technology changed bayonet tactics. (The story took place early in the war when American soldiers were arriving in Europe) The French at the time figured that a rifle was for stabbing people, so they began mocking some Americans who were taking aim at a platoon of Germans over 300 yards away. They were shocked to see the German platoon shot down at such long range. Since the Civil War we have the theory that in a bayonet fight, the last guy with bullets is going to win.

[@Baker_7498]

US didn't join WW1 until 1917!

[@ryanrex7273]

Early in the war for us. I see how the wording isn't as clear as it could be. Good eye.

[@leod-sigefast]

Ryan Rex I think that anecdote is a bit off?! The soldiers of WWI had even by the end of 1914 realised the power of the machine gun, backed up by good artillery support was the key. The BEF had already been highly trained in rifle marksmanship and knew it's power in the early days of 1914. The French had started the war maybe with a desire to charge and bayonet the Hun (show some Elan! ) but by 1917 they were well rigoured in the school of long range defence, defence in depth and the power of artillery and machine gun, as the British too.

[@ryanrex7273]

Y'all are going to make me make a video on this! I should dig up the book that I found this in. (my WWII books are piled on top of the WWI stuff) The idea I am attempting to convey is that around the time Mat is talking about, the firearms tech had advanced such that shooting the enemy became the best option (Huzzah for engineering!), obsoleting some tactics. I think that we could write books on the finer points of sticking or shooting people with rifles.... I wish I had the time. It may be that my assumption that the Americans in question were regular U.S. army is false. Americans have served in the French military before, and I remember that some had joined the French forces before the U.S.'s official involvement. If I find the time, I will return to straighten out all the details. Till then, Cheers!

[@Berengal]

I think the main reason the bayonet on the muzzle loader isn't parallel to the barrel is to get it in line with the grip at the back, so when you thrust at something the force goes straight through where you're holding it. If the bayonet was parallel to the barrel the force vector would be offset to the side of the grip and cause it to turn. Getting the point even further out of the way when reloading is a bonus, but I think making the bayonet more usable was the major concern.

[@jensk.5136]

Sjur Gjøstein Karevoll I second that, Matt's thrust at the "camera lense" clearly illustrates that point. I think it would be interesting to get the exact measurements of the angles to further bolster that thesis.

[@america8706]

Omg I can't believe you have two fully automatic assault rifles! The bobbies are on their way to your flat right now! But on a more serious note, I learned alot from this video so thank you for sharing this with us.

[@modernwarfare9009]

I don't know if you'll see this or not, but, there is a relevant video of a "torture" test, done on a Mosin-Nagant's bayonet, in which the bayonet quite easily not only penetrates, but pulverizes a cinderblock. I think such force adds a little weight to your assertion that it would penetrate a mail shirt or gambeson.

[@JoachimHannemann]

Aa a former US Civil War Reenactor I just love your Enfield Rifle :)

[@AltairDhauglu]

"At that point all you can do is: grab your butt and push as hard as you can" Matt Easton. 2017

[@davidschlageter5962]

Actually there are significant historical accounts of lines of infantry halting and firing back instead of closing in with the bayonet even when in very close range. The advance of the imperial guard at Waterloo for example. However, you are correct that if you could get lines to close then one would usually break and run.

[@qwadratix]

Note that the 'offset' bayonet is actually in-line with the hands. (sight back along it from point to base and the line of sight goes to the hands) That means that it's not really off-line with the thrust - as long as you don't fixate on the muzzle. It has to be like that to avoid bending stress on the blade.

[@donaldhill3823]

Books I have read dealing with the US Revolution from the UK often site the lack of a Bayonet as a grave concern for the Colonial Army and that the irregulars in particular feared the British Bayonet charge more then the exchange of Musket Volleys.

[@LtKharn]

In Hacksaw ridge the Japanese seem quite keen on cutting with their bayonets, seems odd to me but I guess it works. Speaking of which the sight of a bayonet on an SA80 always cracks me up, but even they've been used with good effect.

[@mangalores-x_x]

would assume it is more an issue of safety concerns by people who do not actually want to hurt the other guy. I assume the bayonets used in the movie aren't floppy rubber so even if they are "just" plastic they can hurt and poke an eye out in a thrust.

[@phileas007]

The Japanese actually put bayonets even on machine guns back then. BTW, seen the film and I think it's utterly rubbish!!!!

[@fdsdh1]

LtKharn it's a pretty bad film in which no side actually employs any semblance of tactics except "for charge like headless chickens"

[@ME-hm7zm]

I've read into their bayonet training; doesn't seem like cuts were part of the system. That said, a soldier can do as he likes.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Been watching some firearms videos, and the finger down the barrel thing absolutely set off the "OMG" alarm in my head on safety rules.

[@Mortablunt]

"Pulya duraya, shtyka umnaya." "Bullet dumb, bayonet smart." - Said by a Russian general who NEVER lost a battle.

[@wigster600]

"The bullet is a mad thing; only the bayonet knows what it is about." - Alexander Suvorov

[@Mortablunt]

There are so many variations on that quote.

[@TotalRookie_LV]

Mortablunt OMG, your "Russian" (if one can call it that) needs some improvement. 8D. "Pulya dura, schtik - molodec" (пуля дура, штык молодец), sort of "bullet is dumb, bayonet - good one".

[@Mortablunt]

I was trying to reconstruct a quote I have never heard in Russian, so I had to guess archaic vocabulary and constructions. . Что ты? Я жил и изичал в Москве за год поранее. Мне можно хорошо говорить по русски.

[@MsDjessa]

The earliest bayonets were simply stuck in to the muzzle itself. So they lined very well with the weapon but this of course had other disadvantages.

[@MrTheNigal]

You would have to ram a rifle grenade into an SMLE barrel :p It is very interesting that they used an angled bayonet on muzzle loaders, but it makes a lot of sense! Great video!

[@seanmorse1389]

You should take these out to the range. I'd love to see a video of them firing. Unless you've already made a video of that. Still a great video!

[@countc44]

Right before the video cut to the schola logo, you were about to about to cheekily smirk, weren't ya? Also, the HD quality is much appreciated, if a bit jarring at first. Might be youtube, might be Discogrey's intent. Still, many thanks for it and the video!

[@countc44]

Also have a question for you Matt. Is the floor of that shed hardwood and/or tile? Every time you stand the guns on the floor, I hear the butt of the gun (no puns intended) with the metal plate, bounce. The audio feedback makes it sound as though it's being set on a wood floor (that distinctive "bouncing-click" sound).

[@scholagladiatoria]

It is wooden laminate.

[@countc44]

Interesting, thanks Matt!

[@Redoreca]

Are there notes or something behind the camera? Very good educational video.

[@KonguZya]

"Grab your butt and push as hard as you can, to push them away." Excellent advice, I think. I'll try it the next time I'm stuck in a crowd.

[@OrlopRat42]

Great video. A very small point - you don't need to put a percussion cap on a Snider rifle. They use a self contained cartridge, the side hammer strikes a firing pin that runs through the breechblock, which hits the primer in the base of the cartridge (Edit: I apologize for being hopelessly pedantic here. Having watched many more of you videos since I commented I think I'm just criticizing a slip of the tongue)

[@mileslugo6430]

a plus to having a side mounted bayonet is being able to jam it into a jam and using it to aim and fire without having to hold the foreward weight. as for actually stabbing, i figured you turn the rifle sideways with the butt of the rifle facing away from the rifleman and the bayoney ends up over barrel as to side

[@Tommy-5684]

do you have any experance with plug bayonets that is to say the realy early bayonets that pluged the barrel from around the mid 1600s i think

[@scholagladiatoria]

I'm afraid I do not.

[@Tommy-5684]

just wandering. now i think about it the blade would obviusly be aligned with the barrle but youd have to deside between reloding or fixing bayonet witch cause its own issues id image.

[@markkelly6259]

Tommy Breitwieser I wonder if Todd from Todd's Stuff makes any and if he would lend one for a video. While Matt could demonstrate the plug bayonet with his Enfield musket, to do it right, he would have to get a matchlock musket. would that be tax deductible?

[@fabiovarra3698]

Tommy Breitwieser i think those bayonets was used more in the 1700s for all of the 1600s they keep using pikes and alberds to defend the soldiers using firearms

[@markkelly6259]

Fabio Varrà I don't know when plug bayonets were first invented but they become common after the English Civil War in the late 1600s. In the early 1700s the socket bayonet was invented and it quickly replaced the plug bayonet. The plug bayonet was only used for a relatively short time but during that time it radically changed infantry tactics. Separate groups of musketeers and pikemen were eliminated. Everybody shot and everybody wielded a pole arm to protect against cavalry.

[@TheUkearchy]

I appreciate the bayonet videos. I have to wonder what the French were thinking with long rifles and bayonets, though, given that the SMLE has a reach of about 300 meters in the right hands.

[@tatayoyo337]

great video ! about trench fights why do we see some maces when you can have big knifes, better to have a mace in trench than big knife ?

[@pp-wo1sd]

clubinglex Best and what every soldier had was a spade(soldiers would usually sharpen it to be more effective).It had a bigger reach than a knife and more manouverable in the trench than a bayonet(spade also dosen't over penetrate and you can use it any way you want) .

[@smooth_sundaes5172]

Interesting video. Thanks for posting

[@ShagShaggio]

Great video! On a barely related note I was wondering where a good place to go to get information on old bayonets? My grandfather gave me one a few years before he passed but never gave me much info about it other than it was given to him from his brother that served somewhere overseas in some division of the US army. I've always regretted not knowing more about it.

[@nate_thealbatross]

I've heard even during World War One they filed down those massive bayonets for trench knives. One interesting aspect of longer bayonets is you can always file them down but its tough to make them longer. But based on history I feel anything longer than a Bowie knife is probably too big to be a good knife.

[@troysiddle2032]

You briefly referenced a Roman pilum, perhaps a video on those is needed?

[@TheAbik93]

Wasn't there a quote about bayonets that was like "the amount of people who died because of bayonets is larger than the amount actually killed with a bayonet" ? I don't remember who said that but it is about the suicidal charges with bayonets

[@soupordave]

Hey Matt, great video! Have you seen any accounts of soldiers in WW1 shortening their bayonets to make them more effective in close quarters? Was there any official permission for it if it did occur? I ask because I remember an early episode of Pawn Stars on the History Channel (I know, I know) where someone brought in some "WW1 combat knives." Two were actual knives but the third was a bayonet that the blade had either broken or been ground down to half the normal length. Fun fact, one of the knives was supposedly banned after the war because it had a brass knuckle grip and a triangular blade. Thanks!

[@SonsOfLorgar]

David Transou the trench knives you refer to was indeed made to official contracts off of the tips of shortened bayonets and fitted to spiked knuckleduster grips :)

[@charlesstonebridge525]

The bayonet mounting was changed on the SMLEs so as to not connect to the barrel - then comes the L1A1 'SLR', when it becomes attached to the barrel again, and continues ot be in all iterations of the L85 'SA80'. Do we have any accounts of barrels on newer weapons bending after using bayonets?

[@mattlentzner2505]

So the bayonet has to be to the side on a muzzle loader since the ramrod is stored underneath.

[@armynurseboy]

Most armies of the Napoleonic age didn't "aim" anyways. It wasn't even in the firing command. In this day and age, you pointed you weapon in teh general direction of the mass of troops on the other side of the field and fired in volleys.

[@pp-wo1sd]

armynurseboy It depends on the type of a unit.If it is a line infantry unit then yes ,you would point your musket towards the enemy line and fire bit if it is an light infanry/skirmisher unit (which sometimes had rifled muskets,also they usually had no bayonets) then they depended on accuracy .

[@garychurch1632]

I read a long chapter in a book once about the development of the Brown Bess that was absolutely fascinating. The musket was gradually improved and the fully evolved weapon with a well designed and made flintlock action and paper cartridges with good quality powder was far more deadly than anything that had come before. This firepower made use of the bayonet rare according to medical records of the era and after the percussion cap ignited rifle musket with minie ball came along it probably would not have made any difference taking the bayonets away in the 19th century. Gunpowder made missile warfare dominant and the destruction of formations of Swiss pikes and German Landsnechts in several battles spelled the end of trading blows with hand weapons. The bayonet was always a weird throwback to the age of muscle powered weapons that made no sense and was essentially a distraction and waste of time.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yup, that's what history books say. But I work with primary rather than tertiary sources and they are literally filled with examples of bayonet use. Quite simply, if you can only shoot 3 times in a minute then you still need hand weapons.

[@LutzDerLurch]

One might argue the Brown Bess, or rather the Land Pattern Musket, was a bit behind cutting edge technology, especially in it's latter years, but it was a solid and functioning musket and did the job.

[@garychurch1632]

"Bayonets discouraged opponents from fighting" I would argue that discouraging an enemy is not combat and neither is executing the wounded. They are not actually engaging in combat with hand weapons but are rather practicing psychological warfare. Just arguing for the sake of clarity though Matt: I am sure plenty of men got stuck with bayonets and it certainly made the guys on horses think twice about committing to victory or death cavalry charges.

[@garychurch1632]

I would add that 007 shooting the helicopter down with a pocket pistol in his last movie was a little too much. It was a great movie though. If he had an old SMLE in that boat (the were moving of that old shop and it is plausible) it would have been more entertaining.

[@garychurch1632]

There were several improvements in the lock system over the years that greatly improved ignition, durability and reliability. The shape of the stock was also superior to French and other models if I recall. I have never shot one but I imagine it kicks about like my 12 gauge.

[@johng859]

My apologies if this was addressed, you have a lot of comments and I admit to working while listening to you. In the use of the side mounted bayonet, wouldn't a soldier simply turn the rifle so that the bayonet was above the barrel? Are there any manuals that cover bayonets prior to bayonets being mounted under the muzzle? Thank you.

[@daltoncook209]

Very intimidating, looking down the bayonet

[@rafaelvieira6449]

Hi, Matt! I read the book "All quiet on the western front" and the author, a war veteran called Erich Maria Remarque, told that the germans (WW1) preferred to use their trench shovels in melee combat instead of bayonets because the shovels didn't get stuck. That's true?

[@gregdallaway3057]

Hey Matt, so if we're thinking about an attack on a position or something with single-shot rifles and bayonets, would a lot of the fighting take place with rifles used more like polearms? I dunno if you'd know or not, but I've never thought of it like that and it's a weird thought.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes, there are many accounts of a single volley being fired and then they went in with the bayonet.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

scholagladiatoria especially the Swedish infantry during the religious wars of the renaissance were using the single close range volley and follow up bayonet charge as the default plan of engagement.

[@Lttlemoi]

I noticed that the musket bayonet doesn't have a grip like the rifle bayonet, as if you're supposed to take off the latter and use it like a regular dagger. Is this difference true in general or just for these two examples? In case of the former, what inspired this evolution?

[@TheArtofFencing]

He Matt, my club trains early ninetheenhunderts bayonet fighting as an side topic and we turn the rifle so that the left hand lies in in quarte (left foot forward). This would turn the side mounted bayonet inline and ontop the barrel. The ramrod than kind of acts as a protection of the barrel on the inside line. We even parry outside line attacks with kind of a tierce (lefthand with left foot forward) and so turning the musket 180°. Any thoughts on this? I noticed that later sources forgo this fighting style, which for me is more classical smallsword fencing inspired) , and go with a simpler approach by holding the musket/rifle one way and not thrusting with a turned rifle or parring with the top/side instead of the bottom on outside line attacks.

[@roarkkaufman9339]

Hey scholagladiatoria! One question. Why were the bayonets not sharpened on the blades? If the cuts could become more effective then why not do that? Is it because of the thickness of the blade or some other thing?

[@Herkermer_Homolka]

Matt, is your SMLE deactivated? If not how did you obtain it living in the UK?

[@scholagladiatoria]

It is fully operational and on my firearms certificate. We can own all types of bolt action rifle, even Barretts :-)

[@Herkermer_Homolka]

How much does .303 cost you over there?

[@scholagladiatoria]

About $1 per round.

[@quen_anito]

scholagladiatoria Have you shot it yet? How do you feel about shooting antiques?

[@davidpnewton]

The SMLE is a bolt-action rifle. It is not an automatic weapon, and it is not a semi-automatic weapon. In between each shot the bolt must be used to put another round in the chamber. That means it is perfectly legal to own a working example in the UK.

[@Condottier]

I know I have asked before but any chance for a video on the P. 1879 Martini-Henry saw-back bayonet?

[@grailknight6794]

Please review that wilkinson bayonet matt!! I would love more ww1 bayonets 😁

[@billmelater6470]

I notice too on my Mosin with it's spike bayonet that it is offset a bit as well. I notice that in a thrust (I'm right handed) because of my stance, I tend to thrust at an angle across by body. The offset of the bayonet almost seems to make up for that angle giving it a more or less 0 degree thrust to the front.

[@hanshanszoon]

Does the bayonet on the SMLE rifle has about the same length as a langes Messer and could you use Messer techniques with that bayonet? Related to that, was a bayonet ever used one-handed?

[@TheRetardHouse]

Hey Matt, what caused the transition from spike to knife bayonet? Furthermore, why did they start with the spike bayonet in the first place?

[@NoFormalTraining]

I think I can see Skallagrim doing some bayonet test thrusts at some point, sooner or later.

[@lawrence090469]

I have (what I believe is) a St. Etienne 1877 bayonet, with the steel scabbard. Someone in Mom's family brought it back from WWI. What kind of rifle would it have been paired with? It's dull, and only the first few inches look like they might have ever been sharp.

[@TheForkliftOfDoom]

so how often do you thrust your shaft in to your opponent on weekly bases? and how often dose over penetration becomes an issue?

[@Classic_Frog]

Would it be practical with muzzle loader to have a ram rod to be put off centre and then attach the bayonet under the barrel? At least if the barrel get bent it would be downwards and so, I think, easier to compensate for when aiming.

[@Andy-lo9sp]

Matt, Wouldn't a formation of melee troops in, say, plate armor almost always be able to charge and drive away an equal sized formation of musket armed line infantry? Even if *half* of them got killed by musket fire it still seems like they'd have the edge in any melee. Yet, rarely did said melee forces come out on top - why? Was it just psychological?

[@scholagladiatoria]

I don't think it's correct to say that smaller heavily armoured forces didn't often come out on top - we can see such examples during the crusades, during the Ottoman invasions (eg. Malta), occasionally during the Hundred Years War etc. But it is also a question of how numerous the less armoured people are and how much less armoured they are. If there are enough lightly armoured opponents then they can simply swamp the armoured soldiers and take them to the ground.

[@Andy-lo9sp]

scholagladiatoria Sorry, I'm specifically talking about them charging *musket* armed infantry.

[@scholagladiatoria]

I think they'd get shot to pieces in most cases. And even if not, they'd be hugely outnumbered by the time they reached the enemy.

[@Andy-lo9sp]

scholagladiatoria Ok, it just seemed given the tactical viability of bayonet charges that an army stood a fair chance of charging musketmen and having at least a fair number survive, and the advantage of plate armor vs. bayonets seems so massive that even if only half of them survive they might win in the melee anyway. But maybe I underestimated the accuracy of musket fire.

[@adrianj402]

That may not be a bad idea in some situations. WW1 trench raiders in plate harnesses, armed with grenades and swords, might have caused some havoc. But maybe the rattly plates issue would have had to be sorted :) Anyway, it would be hard to get enough of them in the modern age. Equipping enough troops with custom-tailored plate harnesses would have been stupidly expensive, I should think.

[@hoosieryank6731]

I'm reliably informed that most troops didn't bother fixing a bayonet while shooting; they only fixed them if one side or the other was closing to melee.

[@Sangth123]

Hey Matt I have a question: why was there such an incredible dropoff of armor development after firearms became more prevalent? I do know there were experiments with armor and such around WW1, but for the most part it seems like they did away with it for a very long time in history, why was this?

[@grailknight6794]

And can the smle bayonet be used as a short sword and how effective can it be? Or how do you use bayonets when not mounted but as a small sword or knife?

[@julianperfetti3464]

were the knife bayonets like the one you showed used often off of the rifle?

[@Dan-pf4se]

@scholagladiatoria Why not have a bayonet with an extremely long handle and a 6 inch blade? Would this not be a solution to the problem of over-penetration? Something like the Nagamaki but in knife form instead of sword form.

[@helmutthat8331]

Moving from a muzzle loading 1853 Enfield to a bolt action 1903 SMLE rifle? Do you not have a Martini-Henry in your possession? It is cool if you don't, I was just wondering.

[@klappspatenkamikaze]

I proudly present, the Scholagladiatoria drinking game: Take one shot everytime, Matt... ... makes an butt-shaft-whatever-ambiguity ... says context ... says he covers this topic in antoher video ... mentions Swordsmen of the British Empire. Cheers

[@GrahamMilkdrop]

Oops! Is that some of your DVD collection on show? (My screen's too small to see clearly, so no analysis from me!) :)

[@TS-iz1ov]

what do you think about the Baker Rifle Sword Bayonet?

[@EldarKinSlayer]

I have heard that the mounting lug on the barrel sometimes failed in use, since it was detailed and silver soldered on, and the leverage from the bayonet being more than the joint could take.

[@smooth_sundaes5172]

The British rifles were primarily marksmen and I can imagine a huge bayonet would have been a hindrance when you're trying to tap in tight rifle rounds as well as having that extra weight to fight against when you're trying to aim. I know they tended to keep a reserve in certain circumstances to deal with cavalry if they were caught in the open which seems the most likely reason for riflemen to have bayonets at all.

[@smooth_sundaes5172]

It's interesting to note that during the American Revolution the Americans generally didn't use a bayonet with a rifle which is why they were at such a disadvantage in wet weather where the Brits did use bayonets

[@TheSteelEcho666]

Till Sievers I was reading an account of a rifleman in the peninsular campaign, he doesn't mention fighting with the bayonet. He mentions them charging a building with bayonets, but it appears that the French cleared out. There is one mention of a rifleman digging a shallow hole to shoot from with his bayonet, so it might not have been as hopelessly flimsy as it's sometimes described.

[@johnfisk811]

Valued by the soldiers and junior officers as a useful camp tool allowing troops to make fires and shelters faster than the infantry so they were better fed and rested. Otherwise better used as a cutlass in the hand than a bayonet on the muzzle.

[@dcbanacek2]

Sometimes the soldier (or marine) can take their love of the bayonet too far. Chesty Puller when shown a flamethrower in use asked "Where the Hell do you put the bayonet?"

[@minuteman4199]

On M-16's the bayonet is mounted on the barrel, and they regularly bend barrels in training.

[@scholagladiatoria]

I guess there isn't anything else they could attach it to with an AR-15 type rifle!

[@douglastuck3736]

After firing for a while, the heat in the barrel would make it significantly weaker, leading to easier bending. The full wooden jacket on the Lee-Enfield would make the rifle significantly more durable for bayoneting without damaging the barrel.

[@robertsully9351]

How come the later no 4 lee enfield bayonet is mounted to the barrel? Is barrel bending not an issue as the bayonet is shorter and not enough leverage?

[@fdsdh1]

Robert Sully they didn't imagine they'd use a bayonet much because they had so many machine guns (3 Bren per platoon and even more Sten guns) a lot of grenades and a 2 inch mortar. The bayonet on the No.4 would probably mess up the barrel pretty bad as it is a floated barrel, meaning it is not directly attached to the stock at all. Floating barrels give greater accuracy, better resistance against corrosion and also better at keeping zero. However they are easier to damage (you'd have to try pretty hard it's not bad steel and the full length stock would prevent serious movement, but it's a possibility)

[@dreadthemadsmith]

7:38 I think I have that exact bayonet. Neat!

[@orsettomorbido]

THE SMILE AT THE BEGINNING.

[@Mr2ghost2]

+shcolagladiatoria at 8:25 you talk about the bayonet being awkward to stab with because its offset from the barrel. But couldn't you just rotate the rifle sideways in your hands so the bayonet would on the top of the rifle. you have all ready used your one shot and there is no need to have your finger on the trigger. This would eliminate the lateral offset and make it easier to stab someone. Of course this brings up question of vertical offset, but isn't it better considering that there's more to aim on a human being vertically?

[@NakMuayify]

Matt Easton, you are the MAN. PM me if you ever come to China.

[@Adamrobles76]

"overpenetration was a massive problem". im sure matt knows all about overpenetration

[@Leery_Bard]

One thing I've always wondered about reach advantage is how much people's height affects it. For instance, what if you're 6'3" and you're using a smallsword against somebody who's 5'7" and wields a rapier? Would that balance out the gap in blade length?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes. Though precisely it is a matter of stride/step length and arm length. Not purely height exactly.

[@Leery_Bard]

Hi, thank you very much for answering! Yes, of course, by height I meant the taller person would have longer limbs and therefore some advantage for the reasons you cited. Thanks again!

[@Feminismisfornobody]

Are there any accounts of someone abandoning their weapon because it's stuck in their opponent? Doesn't seem likely but just wondering

[@scholagladiatoria]

I've seen one reference to someone having to disconnect the bayonet from the rifle for that reason.

[@MythicFrost]

Well, in general if you run out of ammunition or something happens to your weapon that renders it unusable you grab closest weapon morelikely from person you ran bayonet throught.

[@RandyLeftHandy]

Do you believe that Darius III actually fielded 250,000 troops against Alexander the Great? I know these battles are notoriously over exaggerated, but I would be interested in hearing some opinions.

[@normtrooper4392]

How much training would the average soldier receive in terms of using his bayonet in hand to hand? Did some nations emphasis the bayonet a lot more than others?

[@scholagladiatoria]

It depends when and whom. Britain, France and Japan were all keen on bayonet training and did lots of it after about 1850. They were all still very keen on it until after WW1.

[@normtrooper4392]

scholagladiatoria Thanks for the reply. Why would it be the case that Japan was keen on the bayonet? Was it the post restoration government copying European military doctrine?

[@scholagladiatoria]

They adapted their own martial traditions (for jo, naginata and yari) to the new weapon (Japanese bayonet fencing is called Jukendo) - just as Gekken was resurrected as kendo.

[@Oberstgreup]

Keep in mind that soldiers issued a musket and bayonet were unlikely to have any experience using spears or polearms, so the offset bayonet wouldn't seem as weird to them.

[@edwardnigma9756]

I seem to recall that the French at first fixed their bayonets above the muzzle. Does anyone know if this is true? I do know that the modern FAMAS used by the French has a bayonet fixed above the muzzle, but in this case specific case it doesn't impede aiming.

[@MRKapcer13]

Hello Matt, I know that you mentioned that you occasionally shoot for fun, which leads to the assumption that you're part of a shooting club. Is the rifle you holding functional? What about some of the other firearms you showed in the video?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes they are all functioning and the ones I shoot are registered on my firearms and shotgun certificates.

[@MRKapcer13]

That's awesome! You have some really nice pieces in your collection.

[@Tomartyr]

I would pick the bayonet attached to the repeating rifle every time. I'm also curious how much the thin barrel of an m16a1 would have bent if the bayonet was used.

[@arpioisme]

Tomartyr the bayonet will alter the harmonic vibration of the barrel and it's weight alone sometimes will shift the point of impact. that's one reason why bayonet is by default not fixed

[@pommel47]

I am actually cleaning my Australian MKIII today after shooting it at the range Thursday, so I had to watch this video. Is yours 100 years old, and how does that effect it's UK classification for civilian ownership?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes my rifle is 101 years old, though it was refurbished after WW2. It is classed as a firearm in the UK, as it uses .303 British and that ammo is still readily available.

[@pommel47]

In the USA any firearm manufactured prior to 1898-99 is considered an Antique (non-firearm). My MkIII was manufactured in Australia in 1941 and appears to have been beautifully refurbished.

[@Sweetnessballlllzzzz]

Thrusting your shaft is weirder when it curves to the right. I've never walked away not having learned something new here

[@stoontownparts]

i have one of those long bayonets CDN ww1 isue in vg condition how much is it worth aprox. not that i want to sell it is a family heirloom sorry just curious yes it was used in ww1

[@jrcastrorwc]

the Bayonet has to be the scariest weapon used in war

[@Stanb662000]

interesting coment about bending of barrels.. I know the L1A1 was definitely prone to it. As a side note the German answer was to not put a barrel ring on their bayonets.. the bayonet was retained soley by the catch

[@BobofWOGGLE]

So I get there's a reason nobody ever made a bayonet that was just a sharply cut off portion of tube over the barrel (think end of a hypodermic needle), probably something to do with getting bits of enemy stuck in your barrel and needing to clean that out later, or possibility of inward denting hampering the ol' loady-shooty, but I think it would be a cool looking design, and really I think we can all agree fashion>function is the way to live..

[@L.J.Kommer]

Mute the video and click this- 6:00

[@garyguyton7373]

Ok. Now, In modern combat, should soldiers be equipped with daggers, long knives, something of that nature, to give them an edge in a close combat situations where it would be difficult to bring a carbine to bear? Taking a trench line, etc.?