Yellowface, R.F. Kuang's Background, & Patterns in Her Books

Let's talk about Yellowface, the latest book from R.F. Kuang. This is a Yellowface book dicussion, but also a discussion of R.F. Kuangs history, and patterns I see in her other books (Babel and the Poppy War Trilogy). Is Yellowface pretentious, or does it deliver pointed social commentary? What are the problems with RF Kuangs books? Let's discuss!
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[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Correction: Babel actually came out in 2022.

[@stationlittle3786]

Babel was a fascinating reading experience for me. I felt for the main character and I really adored the nerdiness. I cried reading the last pages. I don't regret buying it at all! But it felt immature, mostly because of how over the top she treats the readers and the characters she doesn’t like. The footnotes were really the worst. “This thing I just explained to you in a long paragraph? Let me explain it to you again, in the most simple way possible, you idiot.” IDK, being perceived as the idiot reader is not fun. Learning is fun. Finding out how and why you were wrong is interesting. Thinking about your privilege is necessary. But you can do all that without being condescended to. That’s probably why I’m not sure I want to read Yellowface, despite really admiring her. (I like knitting while watching your videos, and this one was great for that! The background was giving comfort vibes. Thank you)

[@haleypratt7934]

Loved this discussion! Babel was the first of Kuang’s books I read, and as a 30-something reader, I found myself double-checking that it wasn’t meant to be YA. The shallow character development and black-and-white thinking kept pulling me out of the writing.

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Yeah the characters read as very young.

[@giantcupofcoffee]

Thanks for quoting me! I agree about the pervasive anger. While I was reading Babel, I kept thinking, “I already agree with you, I’m not new to the broad strokes of colonialism, stop implicitly calling me stupid.”

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Definitely! I wasn't sure if you would want to be named but it was an insightful comment.

[@hazelgrace1275]

As a person of color who read babel in two days, it bugs me seeing white people say they felt the book was explaining colonialism to them. As someone who knows colonialism well from the colonized side, the book didn’t over explain, it made it personal. For people who are on the colonial end of the relationship, reading such frequent blatant discussions about the evils of colonialism may seem like a lecture, naming it probably feels exhausting. But they’re the only names we have to discuss them because you took the language we had to describe these things in our own terms. This is exactly how poc in academia have these conversations amongst ourselves. colonialism isn’t complex, and she’s not too young to discuss it. you understand colonialism when you’re four and you see your infrastructure is in shambles. these aren’t big words, they’re not complex or hard to understand, these novels don’t need to be balanced lessons, they’re realities for half of the world.

[@giantcupofcoffee]

@@hazelgrace1275 bold of you to call me white (to assume that the oppressor sees me as white) or that people of my background haven’t been continually pushed around throughout history. I still think Kuang is too unfamiliar with real-world human nature to speak to adults 10+ older than her with earned authority.

[@hazelgrace1275]

@@giantcupofcoffee well the oppressed certainly does. i don’t mean to insult you personally, but I don’t think these criticisms hold any genuine meaning. especially when many of the characters I’ve seen described as one dimensional act like real adults I’ve experienced in my own time as a visible minority in upper academia. saying she hasn’t earned her authority is so grating, especially when she’s writing about college students of color in elite academia, which she’s experienced personally. if you genuinely felt that much more mature than her writing level and understood beyond her intention, her books would be reminiscent of a younger time. if they upset you, it’s likely you haven’t internalized those same truths

[@ribbrascal1065]

​@@hazelgrace1275You are a malevolent anti-white invader of the West

[@em_harring]

Great video! I think what's been difficult for me re: Babel and Yellowface is that I'm just not the audience. I loved the Poppy War Trilogy, but my background in academia and my background in publishing led me to feel Babel and Yellowface were a bit surface level because I was already tuned in to those conversations. I think for folks who haven't thought about colonization and racism in academia, or BIPOC folks who are really yearning for that representation, then Babel is going to work for them. For folks who may not know much about the publishing industry, Yellowface may work for them. I think I just have to wait until Kuang releases something that I'm not so close to, if that makes sense.

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Yes! I completely understand that. Like I said, for people unfamiliar with these elements of publishing Yellowface could be really eye-opening. I just don't know that there's a lot of added depth.

[@mglarson5936]

I know of another booktuber who learned a lot about colonialism/academia from Babel. But I felt much the same as you: I studied geography in undergrad and we very actively discuss colonialism in academia because that’s how the discipline of geography was founded and current-day geographers are trying to repair that, so I was really immersed in it for 4 years. I also studied linguistics, so her discussion of linguistics and translation was super surface-level to me. It was disappointing because Babel has topics that I’m interested in but I felt it lacked depth and the characters were really flat.

[@asdfghjklasdfghjkl321]

I said this to you on Patron so I'm just saying it for the algorithm and for anyone else who may read this 😅 But as someone who can speak roughly 3 languages, I already didn't like Babel for the reasons stated in the video and how others are talking about it in the comment section, but because of being able to speak 3 languages, not even the geekiness and nerdiness of the book was able to save it for me. She described what I've gone through culturally in terms of language in the most boring way possible having to read about students in a class learn about these things from thr professor as it just felt like Kuang once again bashing me over the head about obvious things that I know about and agree about. Like, and maybe like you Bethany I'm just to aware of things because at the end of the day Kuang really didn't say anything we didn't already know about colonialism 😭😭😭

[@Rotwood]

I found the Bookbox detail in Yellowface to be pretty clever. She had written the Poppy War with very bleak themes based on military history, but though the special editions, people would be given the impression of a fantasy romance adventure. The Last Front getting that kind of special edition was hilarious. Here's a grim historical novel getting the aesthetic marketing of a bookbox edition. If this satire becomes a lasting classic, I can see a heavily annotated Yellowface being necessary to address all of the details that would only be relevant in the early 2020s, so it might not be timeless but I think readers in the future can work with it since the heart of the book works well. For those saying that this book seems too close to R.F. Kuang's own experiences... like, yeah, duh. Cool. Also, I'm glad that she doesn't paint anyone (not even Candice nor Athena) as a saint. I think that would go against the nature of the critique. And Athena being a close parallel to the writer was clever too, I felt, because even in this straightforward satire, she's asking us not to see Athena as one dimensional victim of circumstance and to ask ourselves bigger questions as a result: What does own voices mean? Should a Chinese-American writer write about a Chinese experience? How different is it to have a white American woman writing about a Chinese experience? I appreciate that she didn't ask us to answer those questions in a straightforward way, but instead grapple with them even after the book is done. My mother is Brazilian, but I was not raised there and I constantly ask myself "Could I write stories about my heritage when I haven't lived as a Brazilian as much as I've lived as an American?" Meanwhile, a white lady from Idaho recently wrote a Brazilian Wonder Woman character for DC Comics without worry, picking and choosing Brazilian mythology to mix in yet still making the Brazilian hero sound like she's from the US. Why am I hesitant and she isn't? I grapple with that. I appreciate that this book grapples with that too and that the answers aren't offered up to me like a cozy blanket. I'm a white woman (before any rando asks -- there's plenty of white Brazilian Americans, I'm sure my ancestors were mostly Portuguese colonists) over my 40s and I thought Yellowface was a great read -- nothing more or less than what it set out to be: a peek into the mind of a perpetually online, entitled white woman who would do everything she could not address her racism and privilege, nor the structural racism and bias of the industry she's in. Juniper did not descend into madness - she saw the world from a twisted lens from page 1 and her mind was already primed for getting caught up in twitter controversy and external validation and blatant plagiarism. She was never going to make the right choice because the system is working to her advantage. In a society where we can't even get to the ABCs of racism, homophobia, or transphobia in a conversation before someone loses their shit, I appreciate that this was a quick, light read with a character who felt real in terrible ways -- a book that's easily consumable and most likely to reach those (particularly white women in their 30s and 40s) who need to address their internal bias before it's too late but haven't looked in the mirror yet. I know Kuang is young, but age doesn't equal maturity - interrogating internally and acting with intention begets maturity. I think a lot of white women have one thing in common with Juniper: instead of interrogating their bias, they can still succeed and be rewarded by instead learning how to use the system to their advantage (since the system itself is racist and in favor of whiteness). Kuang is someone who has to interrogate from the get-go and she has to see how stark and grim the industry is because naivety will not reward her in this industry. I think she needs to stop being seen as young and inexperienced and instead see her writing for what it is, even if it isn't fully comfortable for the audience to digest. I understand the critique that Kuang is writing from an academic bubble, but I also wonder if the reviews for Yellowface from those who are in publishing/review/booktok/booktube/twitter spheres are operating from their own bubble as well and that's why those negative reviews come about - she's diving into that specific bubble from the point of view of a character who feeds off of it and refuses to look outside of it. I admit, right after I finished listening to the Yellowface audiobook, I skimmed through the goodreads reviews and I kept hearing Helen Laser's voice narrate them in my head. It was surreal. :)

[@Mokoko83]

Brilliant take. Agree 100%

[@tanglingheadphones]

THANK YOU. I dove into this video 'cause I was curious about the author and Yellowface. Was not expecting to come out of it mildly upset. The comparisons to other works by other minority authors felt especially tone-deaf.

[@BRG604]

Bless and so well put! I came away with same feeling in that it was a fun and biting read. And the extra layer of "who can write these stories?" where Athena is of Chinese heritage but maybe not the right kind of Chinese? Man, that hit me in unexpected ways, because I feel like there are of those of us who of certain heritages who do feel like that? "Am I {this} enough to tell this story? Am I enough to feel comfortable representing?" If there was anything that came from the read that is still resonating with me, it is that point.

[@welfare_king]

Oh please. The American publishing industry is about as insanely libtarded and hysterically progressive as humanly possible. This is just a competition between entitleded white women and equally as if not more so entitled "colored" authors as to who can out-entitle each other.

[@AllisNelly]

Loved this review! My feelings about Kuang generally are also mixed. My first experience with her work was in the anthology The Way Spring Arrives, and I actually enjoyed her translation work and her essay. She has great insights into the act of translation, which is why (among other things) I think Babel was such a letdown. It's condescending and surface-level, and doesn't bring anything new to the table. I don't think I'll be picking up her novels again until she matures as a storyteller. Like you said, she can craft beautiful sentences but she's obviously an ideas-first kind of writer who prioritizes driving home a message over trusting her characters and story to do that implicitly. There's a wonderful essay by Ursula K Le Guin called A Matter of Trust that captures well the problems I have with Kuang - highly recommend the essay collection that it's published in as well, called A Wave in the Mind.

[@Lizzyb1813]

I wish more people read Disorientation by Elaine Hsieh Chou. It was my favorite release last year and it actually is a satire that tackles very similar themes but more deftly. It’s laugh out loud funny and has a timeless quality because it doesn’t get mired in specific pop culture references. So if anyone was either disappointed by Yellowface or even if you liked it, then you have to read Disorientation.

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Sounds really interesting!

[@obryana20]

Agreed! I like Disorientation better.

[@koulmemaybe]

just bought it based on this comment lol hopefully this won't make me want to strangle the air

[@koulmemaybe]

I finally got around to reading Disorientation and I cannot express how much I agree with this comment. Thanks so much for the recommendation!

[@radrose4864]

Just got it from the library based on your recommendation

[@WolfmonLigero]

I don't think I've commented before, but I've been watching your reviews and thoughts for a few months now, and I really enjoyed this video in particular. While it's not your normal style (and I imagine it was more difficult to make because of the scripting), it provided a nuanced perspective on Kuang's books that reflects a lot of the small issues I felt while reading her work. Thanks for taking the time to make it. I think that, for me, it's the combination of black-and-white thinking alongside such important topics that makes everything seem to set just a bit off. I want to adore her books and tend to agree with her messages, but with Babel I got arguments that are so in-your-face and lacking any sense of grounding or realism from the characters themselves that they frustrated me because I felt the author was going in with the goal of ranting and hammering in the idea of colonialism being bad rather than truly engaging with what it can mean to those within its system. I could practically see the book outlined as an academic essay but not as a literary work. And I suppose that kind of thing is alright, but that's not how it was marketed and not what I want as a reader.

[@jessicastraw6593]

Great video! I've never fully read a book by RF Kuang (I got about an hour into the Babel audiobook and stopped, because it wasn't grabbing me), but I had no idea she was so young when she published The Poppy War. I have a hold in at my library for Yellowface and I'm interested to read it. Having not read the book yet, I will say that I agree with your point that since she's spent so long in the academic world, her writing/character work would improve if she got out of that very small, elite environment and had more experience in the world. Diverse experiences and interactions with others helps with trying to understand character motivations/depth. I'm looking forward to reading this one

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Thanks! And yes, that's exactly what I think in terms of wider experiences.

[@christeascozycorner]

aaaa thanks for the shoutout bethany!!! this was such an insightful video, very well-spoken, really enjoyed watching it! also you are so right about the book boxes thing, i didn't even think about how the book in the book didn't fit the book boxes market 😯 also bookcon isn't a thing anymore?! i do wonder how different this book would be if kuang wrote this 10 years later; i would definitely be interested if she ever chooses to revisit this topic later in her career

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Thank you! 💜 Yeah unfortunately Book Con went away during COVID and apparently isn’t coming back.

[@YukiiReads]

Hi Bethany, I usefully agree with your reviews and I really enjoy watching your videos. This comment is just to express my pov and I meant it as a point of discussion, I don’t mean any disrespect. Having said that, I have heard lot of ppl saying that grad students or ppl in academia live in a bubble and they have no experience in life. I find it’s rather a generalized view and quite frankly discriminatory view of us. Just because some ppl are invested in their work doesn’t mean that they don’t have much experience in life. Most ppl in academia aren’t privileged at all, they are underpaid and overworked, mostly international students, who are treated very poorly by their supervisors often. On a positive note, ppl in academia get to meet and collaborate with lot of ppl from different countries, different walks of life. Therefore, I think this type of generalizations saying grad students are inexperienced in life, can be quite harmful and sounds condescending. Again this is not meant to give out any type of hate, just expressing what I think as an international student in US, who came here alone and had to face lot of hurdles along the way. After going through all that I kinda get tired of hearing others say ‘ppl in academia live in a bubble and has less life experience’. I haven’t read Babel I’ve only read Poppy war. Maybe the execution, and character developments aren’t that good in Babel, I can’t comment on that, but going through the author’s life and then say ‘She’s an academic, so she might not have that much life experience, that could be why characters in her book aren’t well developed’ sounds really mean spirited, although it might not have been your intention. Criticizing a book in reviewer space is totally valid but trying to explain what’s in the book relative to author’s life is not a good thing in my opinion. I believe reviewer’s purpose is to judge the work not the author’s life.

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Join me on a literary tour of England! May 20-25, 2024: www.trovatrip.com/trip/europe/england/united-kingdom-with-bethany-pullen-may-20-2024

[@Jillybeanzxo]

RF kuang is giving “I came back from college with all these deep thoughts no one could have ever possibly in the history have thought these same deep thoughts like I have thought them” lol like sit down

[@Adidasler593]

She really said that?

[@inesbenoist6761]

maybe her thoughts aren't unique as you say, but like what do you expect her to say ? and why don't you do it instead of criticizing like that ? I don't see any depth in your comment

[@Adidasler593]

@inesbenoist6761 Newsflash: You don't have to be the best at anything to give a valid criticism of someone who is talented. I found the critique insightful.

[@sava7418]

Umm.. Well.. is she not allowed to just write her little books and not be hated for being successful at her studies? Everyone have thoughts that they wanna share and everyone can write books if they want.

[@Adidasler593]

@@sava7418 The same can be said of everyone here, in this thread. If everyone is entitled to an opinion as you're suggesting, then why not grant that same freedom to the person that you're trying to silence?

[@christinapilkington8732]

Thank you so much for the amount of work and thought you have put into making this video. You’ve put into words exactly the issues I’ve had with Kuang’s works, especially her latest books.

[@mdwgx522]

I just got done reading the Poppy War trilogy. I haven't read any of her other work. Her prose is well done, there was never a moment when I felt the balance between setting detail and action was tipped too much in either direction. My problem was it felt as if she didn't have a good grip on the overall plot points or where she was going with it. Like Rin is fighting the dragon in book 3 and then suddenly the white people show up, blast it with some lighting, and we never see the dragon again. It was kinda jarring. My other issue is how Rin's teachers didn't act like state military academy teachers. There's a scene in book 1 where the kids are bored and the teachers asks why they're falling asleep. They complain about what she's teaching so she switches topics. An actual military teacher would slap the nearest kid and say something like, "You will learn what I teach or you'll get out of my class!"

[@zixaz00]

Great video! The only book of Kuang’s I’ve read is Babel, and I really disliked it. It’s been grating to see it praised to high heavens (and get tons of awards), when imo it didn’t say anything new about racism and colonialism, and also felt completely lacking in the discussion around class in a way that makes it more palatable to the mainstream. It’s interesting that you mentioned Rivers Solomon, an author who does not hold back in their criticism of the United States and capitalism as a whole. In Sorrowland the main character even said princesses aren’t heroes because they hoard wealth! I love Solomon’s stuff but I feel like because fae critique the system from such a radical leftist POV fae will never be super popular.

[@VanessaMarieBooks]

I made a comment on another reviewer's video that I'll copy and paste below cause I don't want to write the whole thing again, but I was wondering if maybe the lack of nuance in the characters were intentional on Kuang's part, but since you mentioned that Babel also struggles with some of these issues I'm guessing it probably wasn't intentional, but maybe just lack of experience? 🤔 Here's what I wrote on the other review: As I was reading this, there were times when I also thought Junie came off as the "stereotypical white woman," but I couldn't tell if this was intentional or not. What I find interesting is I've heard so many people praise Rebecca's writing and her books and talk about how talented she is (this was the first story of hers that I've read), so when the characters lacked the nuance and depth I was expecting and came off as flat stereotypes I thought maybe this was intentional. Since the book is supposed to be about who is and isn't allowed to tell certain stories, and it seems like most of the time it's white authors who have issues with being told "that's not your story to tell," I thought this was her way of showing white authors what it's like when they try to write outside of their experiences and how the characters end up becoming an amalgamation of harmful stereotypes rather than nuanced characters with depth and complexity. It almost like she's saying, "see, how do you like it when authors portray harmful stereotypes about you"? Like I said, I don't know if she intended for it to come off this way, but whether she did or not, I still think that could be an important takeaway from the book.

[@sarahcats8683]

I really loved Babel, it was a 5-star read for me but it was missing something in the storyline for me. It didn't feel quite completed. It was as if the beginning of the book was so much longer and the end was a bit rushed. That being said, it was still a 5-star read for me because I loved the themes and characters and the story moved well. It was large but was a really quick read for me.

[@Deathadderdiva]

As a former bookseller in her mid fifties, I did enjoy Yellow face very much; to me it came across as a blend of Patricia Highsmith(think The Talented Mr. Ripley) and Michael Tolkin``s The Player. The Player in particular is a dark satirical novel about Hollywood which was made into a film starring Tim Robbins as an exec who seems to get away with killing a writer that accused him of stealing his work. Tolkien draws from his own experiences in Hollywood and while both book and film do have dated references (this was written way before the big changes in home video and cable TV), the story still has relevance due to the underlying themes of corruption and misuse of status /power. I suspect that the same may be true for Kuang`s novel as time goes on. I haven't finished Babel yet but Yellow face does make me want to go back to it soon. I do appreciate your thoughts on this book and we do agree that she is a talented writer who will get more nuanced in her work.

[@addunk355]

I would love to see more of these. I enjoyed this video!!!!!🙂

[@iheartwalle]

I really appreciate everything you said in this video and couldn't agree more.

[@Wats06071]

Thank you for this essay. The only thing I tried was Babel, because on paper it looked like something I would love. Well, I DNFed it relatively early on. I felt like I am in classroom being told things that I already know.

[@WildeBookGarden]

Great discussion, Bethany! so far Babel is the only one of Kuang's books I've been a little interested in, but I am curious to see what she comes out with in the future. I like what you said about Kuang possibly being too close to something to give the distance often needed for effective commentary. I sometimes find the "needs more life experience" criticism to be frustrating because it almost always seems to prioritize very specific and arbitrary experiences as being the most meaningful/mature - so I think the way of framing it as distance is a lot more useful

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Thanks Cara! And yes, I do think distance is the right word, at least for Yellowface

[@boxersandbooks]

I haven't read a book by Kuang because they're kind of intimidating? But what I thought of most during this video when you talked about how these books are angry reflections, was the anger iceberg. Yes, there is anger there, but there is soooooo much underneath the surface that you don't see and the anger is just the tip. And what I'm hearing from you is there is a lack of depth wity characterization and character work is where Kuang could really improve. So I'm wondering if within that character work if she should explore the anger iceberg below the surface

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

I can see that being a good idea!

[@Jokomanopo]

A lovley and insightful perspective on an authors work. Excellently scrpited and attention-grabbing from minute 1 to 35.

[@koirena]

I completely agree with you. It's not that I don't like her writing, it's impressive to publish so many books at such a young age and she is certainly talented but I do see her age sometimes. She's a bit too on the nose and I don't know if it's life experience or something else that was lacking for me. I just never really clicked with her characters. I'm still looking forward to her next book though and hopefully, it will be different from yellowface.

[@TheGoofy1932]

I have attempted 2 of her books and DNF'D both of them (The Poppy War and Babel). To me, they read too much like a text book or instruction manual, but with A Lot more Footnotes.😏 I felt she was really trying to "educate me" by hitting me with a mallet. The characters fell very flat for me, which to me is a cardinal sin-hence the double DNF. Yes, the hence was on purpose 😉 since I can't put 20 footnotes into a KZbin comment. I have no interest in this latest book or most likely anything coming from her in the future unless she completely changes her writing style. But, if you like what she's doing then I'm glad you have it available for you. 🤷‍♀️

[@bethloubet4650]

After watching this, I think what feels missing with the descriptions I've heard of Kuang's books are insight / analysis and hope. I don't think books like this need a solution per se, but without in depth analysis and hope, there is only history and anger. I do have great hopes for her future works.

[@christiangalano7512]

This is a great analysis of the book. I never liked RF Kuang's other works, particularly the Poppy War. But knowing how I'll never feel fully satisfied with her books anyway, I delved into this book only for the juicy drama, and not so much to gain insight on specific issues that I'm already aware of. Sad, but I think there are better authors out there.

[@emilyreads5207]

I've only read Babel, and it was my most disappointing read from last year and I thought it was way overhyped. Footnotes that were just annoying, one dimensional characters, hitting you over the head with the themes, and in the end I just didn't care what happened to the characters. Curious to hear about Yellowface

[@Ashley-gq9xy]

I like the conclusion you came to here, as I feel very similarly. I read the Poppy War trilogy and enjoyed it, though the major thing I didn't like was how immature the characters felt at times. I really liked Babel, though I can definitely understand the criticisms regarding the characters not having much depth. I graduated college years ago, so perhaps my lack of experience with academia made the footnotes fun for me to read lol. I'm sure people more familiar with academia, or those who have studied language/history in depth would not enjoy the reading experience. I will say I'm not too interested in reading Yellowface simply because I tend to hate when books are too meta...it's just hard for me to read, and I really don't wanna read about chronically online behavior. I stopped using Twitter so I could try to forget about the ridiculous stuff that goes on there.

[@Beach652]

I have such weird feelings about Yellowface partly because of the meta aspects - particularly that it got such a MASSIVE marketing push from the publishers. Massive. I remember the first time I saw the cover was a photo from the Frankfurt bookfair convention hall floor months before pub date) that showed a multi-story yellow banner and my jaw dropped as I thought about how much it must have cost for that one product placement alone. Like, the cost to manufacture that banner is more than the entire publishing budget of most trad books.

[@heatherparisi8250]

I thought Yellowface was leagues above Babel with commentary but I get the criticisms

[@azure3538]

Seeing the white response to this book has been...interesting.

[@cherrymilk5590]

Girl I feel that. WOC are always held to a much higher standard. All the nitpicky comments are by white readers.

[@kibert135]

I personally have never read anything from R.F. Kuang. But my question would be if her books feel lacking because there was a lot of build up without pay off or if she never intended to write books with clear cut answers anyway. Without knowing her work, a book just showing how terrible things are and leaving the reader behind without answers sounds like a worthwhile way to write a book. As long as the book itself didn't feel like it made false promises. I am always for letting authors explore different ways to tell a story and judging them about how good they were in telling that story.

[@giantcupofcoffee]

In my opinion, it’s because there’s a certain tone to them. She presents herself as an expert and presumes her audience is uneducated/ignorant, so when she’s wrong about something or inadvertently reveals a blind spot, people are going to call that out. An example is that she’s very weak when it comes to intersectionality, and it’s such a massive hole in her worldview that it means she is arguably not able to lead the conversations that she’s trying to lead. If she were writing YA books and didn’t seem so mean, these criticisms wouldn’t exist.

[@Browndrea]

Kuang making her self-insert super hot and desired by absolutely everyone feels kind of uncomfortable cause it feels like that's possibly her real life ego seeping through.

[@ribbrascal1065]

She is poison

[@HG-ok4yp]

Just fyi Magdalen (the college) is pronounced Maudlin

[@BeautifullyBookishBethany]

Just fyi I believe a collage is a kind of art often found in scrapbooking ;-)

[@bookishlylit3959]

Would you have felt different about Yellowface and her work as a whole if it was marketed different? Would your expectations be different? As someone who went into Yellowface blind in terms of the authors background and unware that the book was marketed as a satirical literary thriller, I read it as contemporary fiction inspired by controversies in the book world (particularly those in the online community). I'm not sure how to word this but the instance that Yellowface came off partially as a self insert while also critiquing the writing of her work overall as rage filled with no meaningful reflection or depth while covering topics she has every right to be angry about feels off, like boarding on respectability. That said I understand that your critique is coming from the perspective of her work being marketed towards an adult audience and as literary. Personally I think Yellowface was marketed wrong. I'd give the book a 3. Quick read with references that won't age well if you weren't there but also a conversation starter. I think the context that the narrator has a bad faith view of the publishing world and her lack of success prior to stealing the manuscript is something potential readers should be aware of since the book is told in first person. Given the choice of narrator, use of first person , and pacing decisions I think may contribute to feeling that there wasn't a deeper reflection for some readers.

[@BRG604]

I just finished "Yellowface" today and I liked it a lot. I am not familiar with Kuang's other books, so I had measured expectations. I didn't find it pretentious because I didn't read it as meaning to be pretentious. It was humorous and messy with sprinkled with some insights that are biting because it is from a 1st person POV that cannot be trusted at all. The fun of the book, to me, was trying to figure out what can be trusted because June is being accidentally insightful or what is June's implicit and explicit biases or just her need to justify what she's done. I thought the ending was fine, but I like open endings. I gave it 4-stars. I will say that watching this video and seeing some of the comments, I feel like there is a condescension towards the author herself that is uncomfortable. It is like she's too successful at too young of an age and she hasn't lived enough or had enough 'non-academia' experience or whatever that means which weirdly backs up some of the narrative in "Yellowface" which makes me want to read it again, to be honest, but I already gave it to a friend.

[@officialmkamzeemwatela]

Nailed it. A lot of the reviews I've watched on KZbin smack of tall poppy syndrome

[@asmrbookishness]

Thanks for this video! I loved The Poppy War but I have liked each successive book from Kuang a little less, I think because I am a very character driven reader and her characterization work is just not good (yet). Also the ends are all serving “life is sh*t and then you die.” Not exactly the resolution I hope for considering her preferred subject matter. I think I’ll go ahead and skip Yellow Face.

[@markreadsbo]

An interesting video, while I have not read any of her books, they are on my tbr with babel on hold. Interesting that you kept saying this is my own prospective all the way through almost as a defensive message. But that is the case in almost everything we do, but not just one thing as everyone is more than that. For example take RF Kuang her self,:- Yes she is Chinese but has lived in the US since she was 4, with all those influences so when she wrote Babel her influences from being at Oxford were as a US Chinesa born product of the early 21st century . A person who lived in China their whole life before going to Oxford would probably written the same novel with different emphasise. In addition to what you say about her ability to write nuance in her stories, then people who are reading them do not get that from the book. Which will give the reader black and white opinions on topics. Which need a strong hint of grey as we deal with subjects covered in and outside of her books. I know this is a lot to put on writers like Rfk but people in the book world in what ever capacity need to help promote books that do this well. Not just from one side so there needs to be good novels about colonisation from both sides as nothing is all good or all bad.

[@victoriatalkswriting8352]

I haven't read The Poppy War trilogy (it's too graphic for me) but I loved both Babel and Yellowface. I think it mostly comes down to not having many expectations about them. With Yellowface I mostly took it as funny, I didn't really see it as a nuanced examination of anything but that wasn't the expectation that I had. I've seen some reviewers say they thought June was unlikable (as a negative) but I'm pretty sure that's the whole point? I've also seen reviewers saying they really sympathized with her which I didn't get at all. I felt bad for her when she was looking at twitter threads and mean articles about herself, but I wouldn't call that sympathy because I kept thinking "well, you kind of brought this on yourself." The main thing I liked about the book was the way June contradicted herself and tried to justify her awful decisions. It's just interesting to me that after watching all these reviews there doesn't seem to be any argument on what R.F. Kuang's goal was with this book. I found it super funny, but someone who isn't familiar with publishing probably wouldn't? I guess the book just feels really niche? Both of her books were way outside of what I typically read (I'm almost 20 and just starting to branch out of YA) so that probably makes my experience with this book much different than yours or anyone else in the core target audience. Anyway, thanks for the video I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts!

[@epifaniaritagallina8591]

I agree with so many of the comments but I also think that the main character was meant to be so dull and inexperienced for a reason.

[@inesbenoist6761]

my question is : how can you feel attacked by a book like that ? maybe you're not the designated readership for this one, so what ? doesn't mean you have to make it her fault

[@cherrymilk5590]

Literally lmao

[@inesbenoist6761]

@@cherrymilk5590 why though

[@barboralitvanova5111]

Lol, people are allowed to share their opinion on art. If you dont want to be criticised keep it in your diary and dont publish.

[@inesbenoist6761]

@@barboralitvanova5111 yeah, but mean criticism and constructive criticism are two different things. If you have nothing to offer besides "it's bad", it's not an opinion, you're just an asshole.

[@najawin8348]

12:33 I didn't. She got things wrong. :( Like, this is my personal frustration with that book. Everyone agrees that it's kinda preachy, and some people think that this harms the book massively, some thing it's not at all a problem. (See people below saying that it's just the lived experience of PoCs. Which, uh, I would rather hope you have a better response to someone arguing in favor of the cultural appropriation of knowledge for imperialism than "it feels wrong", but go off.) But even those who really don't like the book still say "oh, Kuang obviously did a ton of research and knows her stuff." No she didn't and no she doesn't. Look at the footnote regarding mathematics varying from language to language, giving the examples of number systems and euclidean geometry. This is not evidence of her conclusion! Number systems are wholly disconnected from what we generally think of as mathematics and serve merely as a framework in which to express these more complicated topics. It would be like saying that certain languages can't discuss particle physics because their sentence structure is different than English. Perhaps it's true, but it's by no means trivial. Similarly, the fact that people have cultural conceptions of space and time that aren't Euclidean doesn't imply that you can't discuss Euclidean geometries within their language. Kuang simply has _no idea what she's talking about here._ Perhaps her conclusion is correct, though it's a very fringe view in the philosophy of mathematics. But the arguments she gives are wholly incapable of leading us to that conclusion.

[@jonnie7891]

Kuang has good ideas but just poor execution. The Poppy War was a mess of a book in terms of-everything. She is educated and thoughtful but she isn’t a good writer at all.

[@Clara-xk3uv]

THIS. If you choose to write fiction, it should still read as good fiction, regardless of everything else. It's a bit annoying she's getting praised and recommended so often simply based on the ideas and overall messages of her books, when the content isn't really there to back up the hype. You're just setting people up for disappointment.

[@sarahhromin675]

Wow could not disagree more

[@jujulescesar]

I haven't read any Kuang yet, but i'm glad for this warning, because it sounds like my expectations were too high. I'm surprised though, it sounds like you're implying that an author reading and watching critiques of their work is bad behavior? which would be very unfair, no matter what the consequences are for their mental health. Uncomfortable for the reviewers, yes, but not anyone's fault or problem. Or maybe i'm just missing context...

[@asdfghjklasdfghjkl321]

Basically, reviewers' spaces like Goodreads are for readers and not for authors. And while I suppose there's nothing wrong technically, there's countless examples of authors going into reviewer spaces and saying what that person said about thier book is wrong. And other bad things which authors have done in general to book reviews. But even besides all of that it's kinda toxic in my opinion cause it's like obessession which can cause someone to spiral which obviously isn't good for someone's mental health. And this could have been avoided if said author never looked and became obsessed with what reviewers were saying about thier book in the first place.

[@ivystrong7203]

I wondered about that as well. IMHO, just as a writer has to expect some negative reviews, a reviewer has to expect that there are some authors who will be deeply hurt by those negative reviews.

[@asdfghjklasdfghjkl321]

​@ivystrong7203 As to my point that authors just should not be looking at their reviews as reviews aren't for authors its for other readers.

[@giantcupofcoffee]

I think Bethany might have been saying that we don’t want reviewers to be scared off from sharing honest reviews. There’s already a bit of a cult of personality around Kuang and we don’t need to have her fans out there brigading reviews that might hurt Kuang’s feelings. Reviewers need to feel safe posting their reviews without feeling a guilt trip from an author.

[@victoriatalkswriting8352]

I wouldn't qualify watching/reading reviews only as "bad behavior" (and I don't think Bethany is either) it's just a little awkward to have that experience portrayed in a book. It seems to me that if we are expected to sympathize with the main character of this book because she feels bad about her negative reviews then it just makes it seem like Kuang is discouraging people from making them. At the same time, the protagonist is intentionally unlikable (maybe even toxic) so it's not that Kuang is justifying the behavior it's just something that makes people reviewing the book feel odd.

[@africanodyssey4805]

After I DNFd the Poppy Wars, I can say I liked Babel, but honestly it was a bit of a let down. It was hyped up SO MUCH as the great literary feat of our time, and what I found was... not that. I felt the character development lacked with everyone, the setting was also not as descriptive as i would've liked. The plot dragged its feet so bad in the middle. And I'm sorry, but the magic system was pretty ridiculous. The use of bars never made enough sense to me, and I'm just someone who needs the magic system to WORK in order to appreciate it. And given the world they live in, I wasn't buying it. I also truly hated the line that Victoire said abt the bars keeping the slaves idle. I thought it was absolutely disgusting to make a Haitian to say something like that, when Haiti is the single greatest slave rebellion in history. And the line itself COMPLETELY erases the thousands of ongoing rebellions that were constantly happening throughout slavery in the Americas. Given that Kuang has a history degree and is clearly very passionate about it, i truly expected better. And the ending was... there. Funny enough, I liked Yellowface more. I agree with all your criticisms on it, I didn't realize how many similarities there were between Athena and Kuang when I stared reading it, even down to the elite private school k-12 education. Ultimately, I didn't take the book too seriously, it was more of a nonsensical break from books that have more serious topics. I hated June, but I didn't feel like I needed to like Athena either. Sometimes it's nice to read something utterly unserious lol.

[@nichellecox4846]

As an aspiring writer I found it morally unhinged and reading it felt like a chore. And I grew to hate it and I DNF'ED and I hate dnf'ing and it takes a lot for me to do so. I got halfway and just couldn't get through it.

[@thatguy7331]

If you want to read a book similar to this but done MUCH better try Erasure by Percival Everett

[@user-ek7qt7dm3t]

So you dont like her books because she lacks life experiences and tends to include characters in her books that reflect her own life? Seems like petty criticism in my opinion. You say her books are targeted towards readers 30+ but i would definitely disagree maybe you think that because reading in general is at a all time low with younger people but i know plenty of college age readers that have read her books. You say her character development is not all the way there but Bable had stong character depth. You came across as jealous in this negative book review forgetting that she is in her 20's and will no doubt ably grow and blossom into an even stronger writer as time passes. Maybe you should stop acting like you know too much like you said at the beginning of this video. " Because I know to much" come across as arrogant. Ignorance is bliss.

[@Mokoko83]

Hmm…I don’t think this criticism is warranted. Unless direct experience working within the publishing industry, close to editorial division - I can’t take any overt opinions seriously. Sorry. I was expecting more of a discussion on the books, rather than a series of superfluous nit picks. I’m 40 and enjoyed the books - sometimes you just have to suspend belief when it comes to any type of fiction. And being young and talented & applying that to furthering oneself is something that should be applauded no matter the circumstances.

[@Cultural_Savant]

Respectfully disagree with everything you said. But I don't usually agree with the overly invested book worms who don't know how to take a joke. You can tell satire is truly lost on you.

[@bethloubet4650]

I'm not sure this is "respectfully".

[@Cultural_Savant]

@@bethloubet4650 beth, go to bed.

[@colleen6644]

Yep. Super respectful