Beethoven, Late Style & Megalopolis

[@alans98989]

Some 20th century composers like Ligeti, Lutoslawski, and Penderecki actually went in the other direction and became more traditionalist in their late style, and also faced criticism for that.

[@themusicprofessor]

True, and their late work is terrific. But a fascinating example of going the other way is Stravinsky who embraced serialism in his 70s!

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

Did Lutoslawski really? I started to chronologically listen to his orchestral stuff and he gets progressively more atonal and modernist. In the 40's and 50's he is about as modern as Bartok but then his music gets more and more modern. So does he come around later?

[@themusicprofessor]

He does a bit. Symphony 4 is a lot more listener-friendly than say symphony 2. And there are lovely pieces like the Piano Concerto: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZ-Qn3R8r7Sgobc

[@UtsyoChakraborty]

An immediate contrast I can think of is Elliott Carter. His ‘late music’ retains some of the character of his middle period works and yet is distilled with charming, easy-going grace. When this, along with his flowering productivity, was pointed out to him, Carter replied “I’ve just gotten better at writing Elliott Carter music”. Great response.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, Carter's late style is fascinating - especially after he was 100! Those super-late pieces are really a unique insight into what the human mind can do at the outer limits of our capacity to forge ahead! Wonderful!

[@kaloarepo288]

@@themusicprofessor And Verdi's late operas like Otello and Falstaff were masterpieces - probably even improved on Shakespeare!

[@UtsyoChakraborty]

@@kaloarepo288 Carter was a huge fan of late Verdi and spoke highly of Otello and Falstaff in interviews.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@UtsyoChakraborty I think late Verdi attempted to match Wagner's innovations in music - pruning away his more populist style of earlier operas -avoiding catchy tunes like "La donna e mobile" and military band style. Reminds me of what Gluck did with music - got rid of the fun! (that's what a critic once said of Gluck -he got rid of the fun in opera !) Rather spot on -earlier baroque opera wasn't taken too seriously -people went to the theater to have a good time and the music was incidental -you only tuned in for the showy arias and the rest of the time you chattered or even played cards!

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@kaloarepo288 Is it not true that Verdi said of Wagner: “Mr Wagner writes the sort of opera where the curtain goes up at 8.00 pm and, after you have been watching for 3 hours, your watch says that it’s 8.20”? Or, according to another source: Mr Wagner’s operas have brilliant moments … and boring half-hours”?

[@shellw1506]

Stanley Kubrick’s ‘Eyes Wide Shut’, a movie he completed just weeks before he died at 70, took almost 20 years to get the recognition it deserves.

[@themusicprofessor]

Exactly! A film that (as always with Kubrick) makes remarkable and imaginative use of music by Ligeti, Shostakovich. Liszt etc.!

[@schubertuk]

I am not sure it has got the recognition it deserves yet!!! Yes - there are some more favourable reviews - but I still feel much more time needs to pass.

[@coreylapinas1000]

I'm pretty sure neither his passing nor the downplayed reputation, given the content of that movie, were accidental.

[@haroldsdodge]

@@themusicprofessor Yes, those Ligeti piano works are stunning. I'd never heard them, in fact I don't know anyone who had (you presumably are the exception?!), but they're so striking. Also that strange, backwards piece they play at the masked ball (by Jocelyn Pook I think?) - very unsettling but unforgettable.

[@haroldsdodge]

@@schubertuk Was just thinking the same thing.

[@drzlecuti]

The late bagatelles often strike me as Beethoven's songs without words.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, and they certainly influenced the way Romantic composers of the next generation composed miniatures. The fascinating thing with the Beethoven's bagatelles is the way they fit but they don't fit into the Romantic categories. Some of them are little dance pieces, and some of them are extremely eccentric and experimental and funny so (as usual with Beethoven) they're hard to pin down!

[@acevaptsarov8410]

Great video! I'm very looking forward to seeing Megalopolis

[@brianhanington470]

Thank you, professor, for that thoughtful and inspiring essay on late style, a concept of which I had not previously been aware. I now think immediately of Richard Strauss’ Four Last Songs, of which Beim Schlafengehen is so devastatingly beautiful that I can hardly breathe when I hear it. Like Coppola, Strauss was 84 when he created it.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. Anyone being THAT creative in the 80s deserves a medal!

[@TheJohnblyth]

From my teens I’ve been fascinated by late works of artists, and particularly Beethoven. I don’t know what the matter is with people, but it seems at any rate to be different from what the matter is with me. 😊

[@edwardlloyd9468]

Critics can quite often lack humanity. They expect everything to fit a certain mold. And yet, how many musical critics could write something to show Beethoven how it's should be done!

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. Critics are important because they ideally present informed, nuanced views and enable people to think about work that's going on around us. But too often they lapse into unimaginative, herd-like condemnation of things that fall outside their regular experience or expectations.

[@jasonmp85]

Of course they couldn’t write something like Beethoven would. That’s not what they create.

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@themusicprofessor My favourite bad criticism is the journalist who reviewed the premiere of Tchaikovsky’s violin concerto: “I am told it is difficult to play. I would rather it was impossible”.

[@ccfliege]

man your playing of the Bagatelle was beautiful man

[@OctopusContrapunctus]

Great video with a great message, I feel like the past decade there has been a kind of spree of coorporate production, from music to film, to cloths we put on that have drown the industry with a lot of cash grabs, and are succeding at it. It is almost like they are taking the name "industry" a bit too seriously

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. Hyper-capitalism and creativity do not mix well.

[@kliberalsing]

@@themusicprofessor indeed ❤

[@Vextrove]

Thought-provoking stuff. I thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[@GreenTeaViewer]

Great topic. The late work of great artists, especially when they reach their 70s and beyond, is a fascinating topic for me. Starting point: take a look at Michelangelo's last unfinished work, a Pietà, and compare it to his famous youthful Pietà. I'm also fascinated with Bruckner's 9th symphony. Equally interesting are the artists who go the other way and lean into being grounded and even humorous as they reach old age, such as Vaughan Williams.

[@themusicprofessor]

There's a visionary element to late RVW though: e.g. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYXTkImBhsmnhLs

[@SittaCarolinensis]

@@themusicprofessor I have always felt that late Beethoven and late RVW are quite similar - if either had been granted a couple more years I think that they would both have produced music that nobody could predict.

[@noelleggett5368]

Mahler’s ‘Das Lied von der Erde’ and his 10th symphony, Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony, John Milton’s ‘Paradise Lost’ and ‘Paradise Regained’, Alfred Hitchcock’s ‘Frenzy’, Michelangelo’s ‘Rondanini Pietà’, Frank Lloyd Wright’s Guggenheim Museum.

[@themusicprofessor]

Indeed!

[@elmerglue21]

It’s interesting as well to see Scorceses late career. They are much more introspective, long, meditative works, that play with structure in interesting ways. I am reminded of late Beethoven a little bit. They don’t seem to get the most love and attention, given their length, and ambitious nature. He shoots things more in a more simple/straightforward way but they never seem to go the way you think they will go. By the way thank you so much for your videos!

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Yes, I think you're right. Scorcese's recent films are fascinating.

[@fmtjanssen]

I wouldn't really call this bagatelle a late work. It is simply an arrangement of a song Beethoven wrote in (probably) 1792, An Laura (WoO 112), when he was still in Bonn. The arrangement may well be by Diabelli, or possibly by Beethoven himself.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. Interesting. It is beautiful and it has aspects of style that connect it to other pieces of the late period: it's listed in the new Bärenreiter Bagatelles volume as a piano piece of 1826, without any other information. Of course you're right about it also being a song although there's no definite date of composition. Beethoven was fiddling around with a number of early pieces in the 1820s and several of them (including Für Elise) were being considered for inclusion in the Op. 119 set, while other scraps even found their way into larger pieces (the trio section of the minuet of Op. 132 for example). Beethoven would certainly have approved its inclusion in the Diabelli edition of Op. 119 and that was its first published format.

[@TheAffluenza]

I didn’t like Megalopolis but I think it was worth a shot to go out and see something unusual and challenging, and everyone should get in the habit of going an to art-house/indie cinema every now and then, because it is super rewarding

[@cyberprimate]

Late Beethoven isn't easy stuff. I remember reading Dutilleux who admitted it had taken him years to understand and enjoy the late quartets, and only because a friend of his insisted. And it became the inspiration for his "Ainsi la nuit" quartet. Personally it's the opus 131 (string orchestra version conducted by Bernstein) that opened my eyes after some time.

[@ceticobr]

Bernstein said that op 131 recording is his favorite of all recordings he released.

[@themusicprofessor]

Wonderful that Bernstein's version of Op. 131 did that. "Ainsi la nuit" is an amazing piece.

[@jeffreyjeziorski1480]

I think the op 59 quartets, middle period. Are denser and more unknowable than the late quarters. It seems to me one can enter a different plane of consciousness in his late period works. Having said that, it seems to me his late piano sonatas are more like non traditional jazz, more goofing around than deep thought. Looking for rebuttal.

[@richiebibbbaritone3718]

I am the first to like, and comment! Hey Professor!!! How's it going? I hope all is well, and thanks for such an entertaining, and informative video!

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you! Well done for getting the first like and comment in - that shows dedication!

[@susanfleming3128]

This has made me want to see the film!

[@justintroyka8855]

A great example of eccentric late work is the Beatles' White Album! It's not late in the lifetime of any individual Beatle, but it's late in the life of The Beatles as a single entity, so I say it counts.

[@themusicprofessor]

I completely agree. The Beatles follow a very clear early-middle-late trajectory. The White Album is a fine example of late style in its extraordinary diffuseness and fragmentary experimentation. There's also the splendid mess of 'Let if Be' which is really an 'unfinished' work (the 'naked' release of the album is more authentic than the Phil Spector version), and the magnificent and very deliberate 'final album' character of Abbey Road, which is also 'late style' in its extraordinary mix of styles and genres and its superb medley finale.

[@ThomasSimmons-u5x]

Beckett certainly comes to mind...Joyce too.

[@le_roi_nu]

Merci Professeur.

[@jtt6650]

I haven’t seen Megalopolis yet, but my gold standard for late period films is Akira Kurosawa’s RAN, so very high bar. Btw the Bagatelle was charming; funny how the dominant seventh in the middle of the piece almost sounds dissonant ha.

[@themusicprofessor]

You're right about the dominant 7th! It's prepared in a very interesting way. Just to warn you, Megalopolis isn't at all like RAN. Nothing is! But surely it's best to see it for what it is. With film, you have to go without any expectations and just let it do its thing...

[@fortunefavorsthebold3459]

This is so insightful, thank you! How do I go about skipping ahead to the late stage of my artistic career, sounds way more interesting than the mass appeal phase - especially considering I never had a mass appeal phase ;)

[@themusicprofessor]

The mass appeal phase doesn't always happen! I guess late style can only happen when the accumulated wisdom of life can inform the creative choices: having said that, people have argued (convincingly) that Mozart was doing late-style things in his 30s...so...never too early I guess!

[@fortunefavorsthebold3459]

@@themusicprofessor Words to live by!

[@christophedevos3760]

I haven't seen the movie yet so I can comment on the quality, but it reminds me of what in psychology textbooks is called 'extrinsic' and 'intrinsic' motivation and making a self financed movie at 85 after a hiatus of 10 years, that is a hell of a lot of the latter that I can only but admire and which shows the true artist. Regarding late style: I'm currently listening to and studying Clementi piano sonatas, a composer who had also an interesting late style I think.

[@themusicprofessor]

Very interesting comment about extrinsic' and 'intrinsic' motivation and I agree. No one in their mid-80s could do such a thing without a deep artistic impulse. As for Clementi, of his late work, I only really know the 'Didone Abbondanata' sonata which is wonderful.

[@christophedevos3760]

@@themusicprofessor yes, it is a prime example of his late style I think.

[@feraudyh]

Ah Bärenreiter, what a great publishing house! As for Debussy's late works, I absolutely love Jeux.

[@themusicprofessor]

Me too!

[@georgesdelatour]

I also like the late Études, especially Étude 3: Pour les quartes ("For fourths").

[@themusicprofessor]

Late Debussy is always fascinating. The 3 sonatas are also wonderful.

[@GwendolynStaheli]

"Late" styles are of course relative, seemingly recognized after the artist in question has died. While we can reasonably sure that at 84, Coppola's most recent outing will likely be his last, others aren't nearly so old. Both late Beethoven and Feldman started in their 50s, while "late" Schubert started in his 20s (at that age, it was clearly just his style). As mentioned elsewhere here, Janacek had perhaps the most celebrated late style, as he essentially didn't reach maturity as a composer until his 60s and wrote with the energy of a man a third of his age. While artists often stop caring about what others might think as they approach death, this doesn't always translate into wild, out there styles. WItness how Bob Dylan, perhaps the 60s most famous counterculture musical artist, has become very boring and conservative in his later works (the past 20-25 years or so), while his contemporary Scott Walker went from a little-known pop crooner footnote to develop one of the most out there and remarkable late periods in rock history. We all seem to expect the creative fire will slowly (or quickly) die as an artist ages since pop stars are rarely successful outside of their 20s and maybe 30s (the Beatles of course famously broke up before any of them turned 30), but reality has shown this isn't necessarily the case and the fire can reignite at any age.

[@themusicprofessor]

Interesting comment. I haven't listened to much recent Dylan but what I've heard doesn't seem too boring...

[@CurtisSimon-ec7vn]

“Voices in the night struggling to be heard, and I’m sitting here listening to every mind-polluting word… .”

[@GwendolynStaheli]

@@CurtisSimon-ec7vn "Eeyiidiot wind, blowin' every time you move your mouth..."

[@Alun49]

Thanks for this. I watched Mark Kermode's review, which was scathing, and was reluctant to go. However, you have made a valid point, and so I may well go and see it and endeavour to maintain an open mind.

[@themusicprofessor]

Frankly, Mark Kermonde's review was pretty outrageous - actually telling people not to watch a movie is an abuse of his position as a journalist. Most critics like films that follow clear genre pathways and they can just line them up against all the other films that they know and judge them, but when a film comes along that doesn't do that, they seem to feel threatened.

[@jeffhello]

I would love to hear your thoughts on Richard Strauss with respects to late style, as I believe the general consensus is that his early works were revolutionary, modernist masterpieces (Salome, Elektra, Don Juan etc.) and that during his middle period his work was not as good as his earlier material, especially his operas (Die ägyptische Helena, Friedenstag, Die Schweigsame Frau). These are still generally not considered fantastic works, despite some of his other operas of this period being reconsidered as masterpieces (Die Frau Ohne Schatten, Ariadne auf Naxos). The music of his late period is generally considered to be masterpieces (4 Last Songs, Capriccio, Metamorphosen) and this sort of goes against the general trend. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and found your discussion in this video to be extremely insightful.

[@themusicprofessor]

@jeffhello I'd say there are 4 periods to Strauss: the early Tone Poems; then the great operas up to and including Ariadne auf Naxos (1911) and Rosenkavalier and Die Schweigsame Frau; then a slightly leaner period when Strauss was writing too many operas (almost on auto-pilot) but there are extraordinary pieces in there like Arabella and Intermezzo, and then the wonderful late period (combining a rather eccentric kind of classicism with an autumnal life-experience thing unique to Strauss) which I'd say kicks off with Daphné and goes on right through to the end. In some ways, the final period is my favourite!

[@jeffhello]

@@themusicprofessor yes I agree the final period is my personal favourite as well and extremely interesting to hear your framework. Almost every piece was a masterpiece, and Strauss was extremely consistent in this final period. I find the application of periods to Strauss quite interesting, as I find there are always some outliers that are quite different from the other works at the time, Salome and Elektra being the most obvious examples, however if you consider the operas seperate from the other works maybe that framework works better. Also because there are so many great pieces from the final period some are unfortunately over looked, making it a goldmine for underappreciated works such as Die Liebe der Danae and, as you mentioned, Daphne. I think Strauss' operas are quite underrated honestly and as you mentioned many people just discount the middle 'auto-pilot' period as you said, but miss out on extraordinary pieces like Intermezzo and Die Scweigsame Frau.

[@jaydenfung1]

It's funny. I can't think of very many works by composers widely known outside musical circles that weren't written when they were younger. The Ninth is one, though. But most are early or middle works. That's not to dismiss early and middle works, of course-they are often charming and have that "mark" of someone different. Yet even those who learned from the composer to compose themselves seem to be offended instead of inquisitive! I think of when J.J. Quantz's quip that Vivaldi had "[sunken] into frivolity and eccentricity both in composition and in performance". I've read a number of essays by Michael Talbot, Bella Brover-Lubovsky, Paul Everett, Nicholas Lockey, etc. on the topic, and it's become clear to me that Vivaldi simply had compositional priorities that inevitably led him to detach from the very conventions he himself established in Western music. Then there's Haydn, to the symphony as Vivaldi was to the concerto, who sometimes sounds quite Romantic but also recognized as the Father of the (Classical) Symphony. It really makes you wonder what would have happened to Mozart, Schubert, and all the others who died so young.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well paradoxically I think Late Style is detectable in Mozart and Schubert. Both of them were doing unbelievable, extraordinary things in their final year (1791 was a prodigiously complicated and productive year for Mozart, producing quite weird and marvellous music, and 1828 was Schubert's last year which Ben Britten once described as 'the greatest year in musical history"!

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

@@themusicprofessor I'm not sure if I would count composers that died in their 30's as having a late style. I'd rather say they reach full maturity and then they died before they ever could develop a later style. ;) But jaydenfung1 was up to something I believe. I too have noticed that many composers, if they ever reached old age, which was basically anything above 55, seem to have their most productive and inspired phase from their late 20's to their mid 40's. In that phase the immidiacy of the musical ideas is met with a fully grown mastering of the art of composing. Beethoven's work for example reached this in the years where he was between 32 and 42. After that his music slowly became more cerebral and less immidiate. The times of works like the 4th Piano Concerto or the 5th Symphony, or the Rasumowski Quartets was over and gave way to something more inward looking, more learned. The same you can notice in the work of Richard Strauss, who peaked in 1914 when he was 50 and then seemed to lose inspiration and replace it with skill. Same with Sibelius, Elgar, Vaughan Williams and even John Williams who reached his peak a little later in his 40's. But they all have about 10 to 20 years in which they write their most popular works and then the inspiration is slowly fading. There a rare exceptions like Verdi, who just somehow managed to get better and better the older he got and who wrote towering masterpieces as late as 80.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. Edward Said wrote a whole chapter about Cosi fan Tutte and late style. But yes I realise it's stretching it a bit: probably more accurate to say that in Mozart's and Schubert's cases, they are writing music of staggering genius in their final year...and imagine what might have happened if they'd lived even another decade (which would only take them up to 45 and 40 respectively!) If Schubert had lived as long as Verdi (87) he would have lived until 1884! I agree with you about Verdi but actually I think he resembles some of the composers you mention in that he has a wonderful late re-emergence: he goes into retirement with the requiem in 1875 and then Boito coaxes him back in 1879 to work on Otello and it's like a rebirth. But actually the same thing happens to Beethoven. He does the Fidelio revision in 1814, and writes some frankly awful pieces (e.g. Der Glorreiche Augenblick) and then composes very little until 1818 by which time, phoenix-like, he's ready to re-emerge with his new style, enriched by a new interest in Baroque models (particularly Bach and Handel) and counterpoint (something similar happened to Mozart in his final years too). But I would say this ultimately gives rise to his greatest work: the late sonatas, the mass, the 9th symphony and the final quartets. Strauss is not dissimilar in that his music does become more note-spinny especially after WW1 and through the 1930s but with the fall of the 3rd Reich he suddenly comes alive again with the wonderful late pieces: Metamorphosen, Cappricio, the2nd horn concerto and oboe concerto, the 4 last songs. Same is true of Sibelius: symphonies 6 and 7 and Taiola are marvellous, Elgar's wonderful late pieces (Wand of Youth and the Nursery Suite and the sketches for the 3rd symphony), RVW's wonderful final symphonies, even John Williams (his score Tintin for example is amazing)... so, as I've said elsewhere, late style may not be as popular but it is often the richest period of all. Look at Ravel: the late piano concertos, Debussy's Jeux, Etudes and sonatas, Bruckner: Symphonies 7 - 9 are amazing; look at Wagner: he gets better and better...

[@anthonymorris2276]

Probably Haydn would be the exception which makes the rule. It has been said that, if he died at the same age as Beethoven (57 from memory ?) - let alone Mozart or Schubert - he would barely rate a footnote in the history of western art music. Certainly his most enduringly popular works … the 12 London symphonies, the trumpet concerto, and The Creation … were all from his “late period”, when he was 60+.

[@anthonymorris2276]

Another - somewhat more tangential - example of a “late bloomer” was the Duke of Wellington. It think it was Andrew Roberts, the celebrated military historian, who observed that Wellington and Napoleon were almost exact contemporaries (Napoleon was the younger, by about 15 weeks), yet if Wellington had died before Waterloo, he would be all but forgotten; if Napoleon had died before Waterloo, he would be remembered as the greatest military commander of all time.

[@gerdprengel7616]

Wow - I study and adore Beethoven for 50 years and never heard that piece before - Thank you!! I love it!! Here another unknown late Beethoven piano sketch with my variations on it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmPbd4KgarKCgNEsi=XppCNhXyozzD577N

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. It's a beautiful piece, very rarely played.

[@PhilFogle]

The Beethoven was beautiful...

[@themusicprofessor]

Isn't it?!

[@blindcanseemusic]

If you gave an opinion on the Beethoven piece it must have been brief. My thoughts are that it reminded me more of something early. I was impressed how, when he repeats he never just repeats. something always changes. I was thinking how important it is to both hold back but then also to add layers that are also in conversation with the main theme, supporting but not overpowering. Why is contemporary diatonic music so ho-hum, yet we (rightly) pour over the masters. Do contemporary composers actually retain the skill of diatonic writing? Rant ended. Thank you.

[@themusicprofessor]

I do discuss it briefly. It was written in1826 but yes a (consciously) naïve charm. Some contemporary composers use diatonicism (Tom Adès Dawn, for example): kzbin.info/www/bejne/emmQlGCuotald6ssi=t7EpQfNd9X7D2UK9

[@clairejmckeown]

This is such a beautiful conversation to have. I am a big fan of Beethoven's late quartets and now am inspired to see this movie of a director I love.

[@kvx5film109]

I just saw it this afternoon in a theater with about a dozen of us in the audience. I loved it and predict it will eventually get its due. But while the ending credits scrolled, someone quipped, "sorry Francis".

[@themusicprofessor]

Always a smart alec out there.

[@movingvisionmotiongraphics5110]

I went with LOW expectations but thoroughly enjoyed it to my surprise. I think its the apotheosis of Coppolas work- with all the themes hs been exploring throughout his career. To some extent the message is the medium with this film.I think the reaction by some so called professional critics (ie Mark Kermodes cycnical tirade) is embarassing

[@themusicprofessor]

Couldn't agree more. Kermode's reaction was disgraceful.

[@ricardorivas5955]

late lizst is also very interesting

[@themusicprofessor]

Fascinating. Yes, absolutely.

[@TamsinJones]

When I was much younger I was seduced by the notion of late style, with respect to Heinrich Schütz. I was fascinated by the three unaccompanied Passion settings, and went on to do my PhD on the subject. I feel less romantically now. While it's true that his style demonstrates a simplification in his later music, I think he was pretty much the same composer in the 1660s and 1670s as he was sixty years earlier - conservative in his reliance modality and counterpoint, and brilliant in his handling of text and structure. The simplification maybe shows a desire to focus on the essentials, as he perceived them, but to make too much of 'late style' I believe can be a misguided response to natural processes in an artist's development. But, yes, Schütz's later pieces, while lacking the bizarre harmonic moves found in earlier pieces like the Resurrection History, are wonderful - the same Schütz, just older.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well late style is notoriously tricky to pin down! But there's no question that most really good composers get even better as they get older (Janacek, Beethoven, Verdi, Wagner, Mozart etc.) and some even pass beyond what might be called straightforward mastery of their own style to something weirder and more experimental: Beethoven is a famous case and perhaps Stravinsky is a more recent example. Most composers (including Schütz) are recognisably themselves all the way through, but I suspect that his late simplification and reducing things to essentials is a fairly typical older composer thing.

[@arijitmoitra1018]

The hatred directed towards some these works of art, I think has got to do more with how eccentric some of them are than with the public image of the artist. Even in literature some of the best works are often ignored owing to their peculiar nature, for example Olaf Stapledon's Star maker, David Lindsey's Voyage to Arcturus, CS Lewis' Perelandra, and Milton's Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. One can find similar examples in cinema and music and paintings. All these great works are ignored because of their perceived peculiarity.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. So many people (and this includes professional critics) are unable to perceive new and wonderful things if they fall outside their normal experience, and the categories of style and genre to which they have grown accustomed.

[@pogginstone]

Intersting observations. I learned guitar by playing along to Dire Straits songs. It is interesting to me how the relevance of that guitar lead style of music has waxed and wained during my lifetime. Off topic a little, is there a way to download the music for the pieces you play, or are they copyrighted? My daughter is learning piano at grade 5, and my wife has letters after her name in piano. Many thanks.

[@themusicprofessor]

Many of the pieces I play in videos are in the public domain. Check out IMSLP, If you look up Beethoven's Op. 119 bagatelles Diabelli edition, you'll find the little piece I play in this video in that very old edition online: it's no. 12.

[@pogginstone]

@@themusicprofessor Thanks prof

[@theKobus]

This is how I felt about Miyazaki Hayao's most recent film.

[@themusicprofessor]

I haven't seen it yet, but I like his films.

[@Mattenzo23]

@@themusicprofessorMight you do a video essay on the music of Joe Hisaishi? Being a film composer, his music has a lot of influences and it would be interesting to dissect it from your point of view.

[@themusicprofessor]

At some point that might be fun.

[@DrGeoffLindsey]

Isn't Janáček one of the best examples? Great topic, would love to hear you go further into this.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes - a truly late great composer.

[@georgesdelatour]

Bach’s late style is notable for his increased interest in canon - as in the Canonic Variations, the Musical Offering and the Art of Fugue. But there’s also something happening in the way he approaches tonality. To my ears, he becomes more fluid. In Bach’s mid-period masterpieces the music tends to progress clearly through a series of related keys, as if a tonal route-map for the music has been prepared in advance. But in the wonderful 11th fugue of The Art of Fugue, for instance, for all of the amazing complex, braniac triple counterpoint, there’s a feeling that the music’s allowed to drift around tonally, in a less clearly-defined, less goal-directed way.

[@themusicprofessor]

Fascinating comment. Yes, You're right. There's a less 'teleological', less goal-directed tendency in late Bach and I think the Art of Fugue is particularly fascinating from this point of view: there seems to be a thrill in pure polyphony and the movement of lines, and the harmonic colours they produce.

[@pwdempsey02]

I'd like to note a difference between "late style" and genuine mental illness, which can worsen with age. Late beethoven faced criticism for the strangeness of it, but there are artists and composers like Scriabin, Tchaikovsky, or more recently Kanye West, whom succumb to mental health problems and thus face criticism as well (some more controversial than others).

[@themusicprofessor]

I feel these are different categories really. It's possible to be wrestling with significant mental health problems and also forging a kind of late style (Robert Schumann is a famous example). Beethoven too was a functioning alcoholic, isolated and increasingly deaf, in his last decade but still managed to create some of his greatest work despite his personal difficulties

[@jacqueslapidieux3182]

"The second sad thing is I went with my wife..." 😆🤣 4:32

[@themusicprofessor]

Whoops.

[@lloydpayne6668]

Totally agree!

[@stapler942]

One composer that arguably did go a little insane, or at least megalomaniacal, after crossing that threshold into "late" style was Scriabin. I can't knock his style though, I love his later experimental music the most.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes - he definitely became a little...self-obsessed. I agree his late music is marvellous.

[@MooPotPie]

Beethoven was only 55 in 1826.

[@Michaelhendersonnovelist1]

This “late style” idea is a fascinating topic. All it really means is that some artists continue to work and create new things until they die. Maybe it should be called “near death style.” Beethoven died at 57, while Picasso died at 91. Both continued to create until the end. Beethoven’s late style coincided with Picasso’s late middle style. So, late style has nothing to with age, but with death. Not all artists have a late style because they live on, but don’t create anything new past their heyday. Most rock stars of the 60s, 70s and 80s are fine examples. In Coppola’s case, and in the case of every true artist, they simply continue to work so long as they have the mental and physical ability to do so. And that is the measure of a true artist. As to Megalopolis, it’s labelled late style because Coppola is old. But I don’t see it as that. What I see is an example of what happens when an artist is in complete control of every aspect of production, without some outside controls/limits. It’s not necessarily true of all art forms, such as painting, but in others, such as novel writing and film making, it is necessary. They are complex things, and it’s easy for the artist to lose sight of the big picture. Even Beethoven had to substantially rework “Fidelio” to increase the drama. I haven’t seen Megalopolis and probably won’t. I have only seen a couple of clips available on KZbin. The acting was pathetic and the dialogue dry and poorly timed. I also watched a number of reviews on KZbin, and virtually every reviewer eviscerated it. Hated it. Were disgusted by it. So, in Coppola’s case, it’s not a late style thing, it’s an artist’s hubris thing.

[@themusicprofessor]

Interesting comment. As I said in my discussion, it's a film that divides opinion. Having watched it myself, I find the astonishing level of hostility directed at the movie quite weird. It has flaws but it also has wonderful things. Listening to Mark Kermode attempt to eviscerate it in his recent review was an example of journalistic hubris (since you bring up the h word) in its most disgraceful form: his exhortation to the public not to to watch the movie was an abuse of his position as a critic.

[@Friendofcommonsense-z6w]

What do you think about Richard Strauss, his very late "Symphony for Wind Instruments" (1945) and similar works? Is this genius, nostalgia, senility; maybe a little of each? As a clarinetist, this work is extremely fun to play; as a music lover it's extremely boring to sit through. Although obviously a much smaller scale, this Beethoven Bagatelle seemed pretty simplistic and boring, like a 10 year old Mozart or very early Haydn, aside from the couple of surprises you mentioned. Thanks!

[@themusicprofessor]

I like the bagatelle - it is simple but also subtle and beautiful. I'm quite a fan of those late Richard Strauss wind pieces: they're magnificent in their way. They're not really intended to be popular pieces - they are simply (as he makes explicit in the subtitle) all about craftsmanship and the joy of creativity with a lifetime's experience and wisdom behind them. At the end of his life, he liked working with specific types of ensemble like this. There's also that amazing 'Festmusik der Stadt Wien' - the longest fanfare in history! - and of course Metamorphosen for strings (which is one of his best pieces). I also love that Duett Concertino for clarinet, bassoon and strings - do you know it?

[@Friendofcommonsense-z6w]

@@themusicprofessor Hi again! Yes, I know the Strauss Double but have never performed it; mostly because the dear longtime colleague sitting to my immediate left in the orchestra doesn't want to!! We were asked to do it a long time ago, but won't get asked again. That bird has flown. Nowadays in US orchestras the only thing that matters, post covid, is putting butts in seats and rebuilding the audience. Programming has been dumbed down to the point that everything is either a Pops/Light Classics concert, something with a silly gimmick, or accompanying a movie. For the foreseeable future the chances of any of the Strauss works discussed here being programmed anywhere in the US, including the most prominent Major Symphonies, are basically zero.

[@lloydpayne6668]

It's like comparing "The sacrifice" with "Mirror".

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

This is a really an Interesting topic. I haven't seen Megaoplois, and it's true it has garnered some pretty poor reviews. Does it put me off seeing it myself? No, not really. Coppola is a significant artist who has produced seminal works in the genre (The Godfather, The Conversation, Apocalypse Now) so to ignore this merely on the word of a critic strikes me as foolish. You have to engage with any form of art directly and openly, and decide what it means to you. You can't do that by proxy. Now it could well be that Megaoplois is not a late masterpiece, but I think often even when a significant artist produces something considered less than optimal it can still be illuminating (for example Dennis Potter's last works Karaoke and Cold Lazarus). These endless, pointless debates what should be considered 'worthy' is just nonsense. Ultimately, you decide and don't be swayed by others.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. So many people (and this includes professional critics) are unable to perceive new and wonderful things if they fall outside their normal experience, and the categories of style and genre to which they have grown accustomed.

[@peteannells4218]

Interesting topic. Your comment that included Virginia Woolf (bonkers !...) may need a rethink. Her last two novels ('The Years', and 'Between the Acts') are brilliant, the experimental 'The Waves' was earlier. She drowned herself, after writing that heart-breakingly rational suicide note, fearing the return of her mental illness. George Elliot's final novel was an experimental departure though...name that book ?! Are Marvel films art ? (A blank canvas can be apparently.) Has art 'sold out' if it is popular ? The Beatles were not the best band of the time but were the best managed and have achieved legendary status for being well promoted. The same can be said of the Sex Pistols who set up to be obnoxious and carried the message that theirs was the new music and everything that came before should be dismissed (they borrowed that from Picasso...better still their producer and the actual guitarist from their album was also in The Wombles !) The problem is that the Beatles, Pistols, Status Quo, The Wombles, et al, made and make a lot of people happy, and is that not the point of it all ?

[@themusicprofessor]

Ah yes: Daniel Deronda. Wonderful and definitely a late style masterpiece I'd say. But actually I disagree about Virginia W: Between the Acts, a book I know very well indeed, epitomises Late Style more than The Waves (for me). It's so discursive, and jumps from pastiche fragments of amateur dramatic pageant to poetic reflection to tea and cakes to the apocalyptic hint of approaching war. I find it marvellously odd.

[@peteannells4218]

@@themusicprofessor Marvellously odd but highly entertaining, and all of her novels have an oddness and are different. I read most of those while attached to my old dialysis machine...we all have different perspectives ! Daniel Deronda: the pianist is said by some to be based on Chopin, but not the right answer. 'Impressions of Theophrastus Such', quite a departure and hard to find except as part of a complete set of Eliot's works.

[@themusicprofessor]

Ah - I'll have a look for it. Good?

[@peteannells4218]

@@themusicprofessor It's good but as dry as chaff 🙂. It is worth the effort though. Got mine on Ebay, rarely in print.

[@Hirfel]

Great video

[@Daniel_Doce275]

I tend to prefer his late works, but then again im not a beethoven guy so i havent consumed alot of his works

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

It's fairly nice. However it is very similar to (but inferior to) that one in op. 126 that is something like number 1 or maybe number 5 (I don't recall). Compared to Schubert's late works, it is like some museum relic . As are all of Beethoven's late works in my humble opinion. Except maybe for op 111.

[@galeem713]

I think anything Beethoven writes is fabulous, especially considering that he was completely deaf for a long time. The ability to hear it in his head and write it down is amazing. I can hear very well, and that skill is way beyond me, as is the piano I am finding out.

[@nathanbarnes4740]

Actually, Beethoven only went completely deaf a couple of years before his death. Although before that you could say he was incredibly hard of hearing. But not totally deaf.

[@_Helm_]

my good professor. In your analysis on why people didn't go see this FFC movie, so you do not despair 'in the wrong direction' so to speak, I would recommend including that we are going through the historical lowest moral point for humanity at the moment, what with an active genocide funded by first world nations, threat of third world war looming literally on a day to day rate, climate apocalypse... and people are poor, tired and downtrodden. Entertainment isn't the first thought and certainly not cerebral entertainment. They might give some money to go see a big spectacle, but even that less often and with a more dour disposition. We are also, still, going though a pandemic. These ideas I think better frame why you were alone in the theatre. Also the movie has a reputation for being bad, but that's neither here nor there. The deepest part of my analysis: art is supposed to reflect and elevate, from the problems of the day to the imagination of tomorrow. The western world and its entertainment industry, a world that is funding and excusing a genocide cannot hope to generate art that speaks to the human condition in a way that will be widely trusted anymore. It's a fallen world, morally at its lowest point and our entertainment is folding up, closing books, inward-looking, incestuous... the art of a falling empire. What is to come is a new world and new art to go with it, which we cannot imagine or predict because of the failure of imagination endemic to the age of capitalist realism. Whoever makes great art expressing these tensions and a way towards the future is not going to be Francis Ford Copolla, obviously. All the best with your endeavours :)

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Terrible times in History urgently require artistic responses! Fascinatingly (I don't know if you've seen it) FFC's film really does attempt to engage with many of those topics, especially the fall of empire and the decline of culture and the collapse of trust and dialogue and critical thinking etc. The film seems constantly to labour under the heavy burden of explaining the world we live in...and in a sense it (heroically) fails to but I find the attempt rather marvellous and, like Adorno's comments about late Beethoven, all kinds of strange anomalies and fissures appear which are very revealing...

[@_Helm_]

​@@themusicprofessor thank you for the salient response. I haven't watched it yet but as you say I do not expect FFC to do anything but 'heroically fail' at capturing the zeitgeist of a new world that is struggling to be born. Which isn't to say it doesn't deserve to be watched, it's more that I don't begrudge anyone for not going to the cinema for it under the circumstances.

[@JulioLeonFandinho]

None of what you've said is new or particularly terrible in historical terms. And your definition of art is quite debatable.

[@_Helm_]

@@JulioLeonFandinho lol yes let's debate in the youtube comments. The message I had reached its destination and prompted the dialogue I was interested in. Go have another problem with someone else.

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@JulioLeonFandinho Agreed. And don’t forget that many of the great composers - Beethoven included - were composing in far more oppressive times, when warfare was ubiquitous, infant mortality commonplace, incurable diseases endemic, hunger and abject poverty widespread, and the greatest prodigies (Mozart, Schubert, Shelley, Byron, Keats, etc.) often did not survive to 40.

[@robertmueller2023]

Op. 17 No. 1 in b-flat sonata una fantasia. Question for piano professor the Wizard: To become familiar with recordings of it first before you tackle it, or not? Your own unscholared interpretation? It's brand new to me.

[@themusicprofessor]

Do you mean Op. 27 no. 1? Well worth listening to recordings. Andras Schiff has done a terrific lecture about it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYOQgoydjqeUpLssi=fqHPPlqDRQ8QBjGE

[@Vasioth]

I appreciate everything you are saying in this video. But I am also not going to pretend that I will ever listen to this late Beethoven piece again, the theme seems a bit of a throw away and I think his younger works were more adventurous and bold in comparison. It's hard not to compare a creator's work to what came before, probably impossible to be honest. But I do think you're right in that challenging or bold works can become appreciated later. In this case I don't really think there is anything remarkable about this piece, I can see why Beethoven never published it. Sort of up there with the Bagatelles.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you for your comment. I would say that there is something deliberately elusive and elliptical and epigramatic about all the late bagatelles! So they don't share their secrets immediately. It's as if Beethoven is inviting us to look more closely at what he's doing. I'll do a video about this at some point.

[@ricardorivas5955]

late godard is also a good example also

[@albiepalbie5040]

Megalopolis : Some amazing spectacular visuals Formally a mess I stuck with it - as I always do - hoping for some sort of internal subliminal logic to appear - as I think happens in the maddness of Apocalypse Now You mention the Marvel franchise films as a contrast I found Megalopolis reminded me most of those jumbled crass moralising messes than anything else A bit of true wit charm and humour could have helped and the absence of Shia Le Bouf who is always awful The script was a mess - unless there’s something profound there that’s gone completely over my head Beethoven’s late string quartets have been a part of my life for 50 years when I presumed I was too young to get them - i was completely wrong - I wasn’t I still don’t get them They get me Opus 132 is a transcendental experience

[@themusicprofessor]

Absolutely agree about Op 132 but not about Megalopolis. I've only seen it once but I was captivated DESPITE these weird anomalies. The intriguing thing is that one could make (and people did make) very similar complaints about Op. 132: it is structurally all over the place - the first movement is barely coherent - it's as if Beethoven forgot how to compose in Sonata Form; the minuet is overlong and laboured with a very odd trio section; the slow movement is insane and doesn't really make sense on any level - its use of modality is forced and just utterly weird: Beethoven doesn't seem to even know what key he's in at the end; the little march is very oddly proportioned and doesn't balance the other movements and the finale is overly-complicated and appears to lose direction several times then lurches oddly into A major at the end and finishes abruptly. Now, obviously I've trained myself to love Op 132 and its greatness supersedes its surface eccentricities but some artworks are difficult to accept initially...

[@albiepalbie5040]

@@themusicprofessor Hi Mr Professor Thank you for your fast response and great insight I’m fascinated by how from my background with no great effort - relatively speaking - be enthralled by a Beethoven symphony or string quartet I’m not a trained musician like you so the formal problems that might seem inherent in a piece of music and a stumbling block for the first listeners of Beethoven are not there for me as form and structure is formed by the piece blind as I hear it - innocently almost accepting what I hear as being intrinsic to that piece I have read about and recognise now sonata form minuet trio rondo etc but not as an academic Being brought up in the 20th century with no formal training any idea of revolutionary music has to be picked out and put in its contemporary context from the mass of stuff that I’ve been deluged with all my life to appreciate the revolution going on An Impressionist painting is just a pretty painting without its context When I first heard Mahler in the 60s I immediately liked it Unbeknownst to me I had been brought up with Malerian music playing in the background with the Hollywood films on TV so it wasn’t such a leap I had to learn how groundbreaking unusual and strange - actually always strange his music is Maybe a thread running through Megalopolis - maybe ? Is how destructive the deluge of information/ stuff that is the modern world ? We get lost ? No context Great Art gets lost Coppolas masterly incorporation of great art in his earlier films seems to have got lost and laboured in this one unfortunately

[@albiepalbie5040]

What do you think of the score of Megalopolis ? I was thinking Berg and Schnitke - Aubrey Plaza a modern day Lulu

[@themusicprofessor]

I think there remains a spark of genius in there. It's visually astounding. I admire anyone in their 80s who can do that!

[@themusicprofessor]

I liked it. I'm sorry I didn't discuss it in the video because...too much was going on. The composer (Osvaldo Golijov) is highly accomplished. I believe Coppola approached him very specifically to score the movie. There are terrific pastiches of Roman Epic style and Hollywood Golden age (Richard Strauss/ Korngold style) and other rather beautifully scored, floaty things. Almost like the film itself, the score seems like a tour of cinematic style. Occasionally there are quotes from classical pieces. Debussy makes an appearance at one point on the harp. Aubrey Plaza is a bit Lulu-like I suppose. I can't remember the score resembling Berg much though (sadly).

[@schubertuk]

Great video - agree with nearly all your points! I say nearly all - only because I have not yet had a chance to see Megalopolis. I am a big fan and supporter of independent cinema and non-mainstream movies. As to your comments on 'late style' of artists - the time of our lives when we can create without any concern re criticism by third-parties - perhaps - just perhaps - may define what a 'late style' is. And there is an immediate temptation to suggest this should be the default. I reject this (within myself). The 'late style' is incredibly valuable only if it can reflect its glory against styles that'd seek approval and acceptance. The 'late style' is a necessary and invaluable contrast that is niche (only offered up by the greats) and I adore - but accept it must necessarily not become dominant to be of value.

[@themusicprofessor]

Superb comment. I cautiously recommend Megalopolis which is fascinating partly because it seems 'mainstream' and immense and grandiose etc. and at the same time completely off-kilter! It is so widely hated that I feel very much out on a limb in suggesting that it is of interest. I was reminded a little bit of Hitchcock's Marnie which, at the time of release seemed so weird and mannered and preposterously old-fashioned that it was universally panned, and is now thought one of his great films. In a curious way though it's almost impossible to tell: my own experience was of being amazed by it...but other people tell me it's boring and pretentious...

[@schubertuk]

@@themusicprofessor I do find Marnie both difficult viewing and compelling - therefore you have made me even more interested.

[@themusicprofessor]

Just to be clear though - it isn't like Marnie in style: it's more like a weird Roman epic filtered through Bollywood with touches that remind you of the Matrix or Fellini or Blade Runner or FFC himself and off-kilter Holywood blockbuster elements plus strange clunky bits that seem improvised... I mean it's really bizarre but (I found it) weirdly compelling.

[@schubertuk]

@@themusicprofessor Point taken! And I didn't assume it was.

[@sualee890]

Speaking of the Bärenreiter edition of Beethoven’s piano music, how do you view the editor’s opinion, that there wasn’t a difference between Punkt and Keil in Beethoven’s time? (Generally viewed as staccato)

[@themusicprofessor]

It's a much debated point. I'm not sure where I stand, but I do know Mario, so I'll ask him about it...

[@sualee890]

@@themusicprofessorThank you very much for taking my question into consideration, Professor King! I have had this question for a while and look forward to the answer.

[@themusicprofessor]

Mario Aschauer has responded. He says: "Almost all Viennese keyboard treatises (and thus a pretty good reflection of Viennese keyboard culture) EXPLICITLY say that there is no difference in the meaning of the two SIGNS. Hilariously, many pianists get all worked up about this. They argue back, "but it cannot be that Beethoven only wanted one type of staccato." They also say Beethoven surely also didn't want only two types of staccato (dot/dash). Czerny says that there are 5 different basic modes of articulation from legatissimo to staccatissimo. And that between each of these lie at least 20 shadings. In short: at least 100 different modes of articulation. And it is the performer's task to chose the right one. We simply cannot approach Beethoven's notation with the expectations we'd have for a score of Stockhausen or Boulez. The music may have comparable numbers of gradations and shades, but the NOTATION does not."

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@themusicprofessor “The music may have comparable numbers of gradations and shades, but the NOTATION does not.” Well said! Somebody should point this out to the imbeciles who promote “Authentic Sound”, I.e., Beethoven performed at half the usual tempo, based on an idiosyncratic understanding of his tempo markings, and regardless of the fact that there are historical records showing EXACTLY how long the original performances lasted, even with Beethoven himself performing or conducting.

[@sualee890]

@@themusicprofessor Huge thanks to both of you for the explanation!🙏🏻

[@johnpcomposer]

Nielsen also in his late work was getting strangely experimental. Symphony No. 6 and the strange Clarinet Concerto.

[@themusicprofessor]

All true. Late Nielsen is wonderful.

[@johnpcomposer]

@@themusicprofessor I love them also.

[@janmichaeljablonsky9847]

When you say that artist's late works are heavily criticized, I tend to agree. However, what's also true is the fact that people who critically view these artists are almost always rooting for them and they don't go into the review with a pre-determined point of view.

[@themusicprofessor]

Do you think? I'm always super-critical actually. Of course we respect leading artists but we know they're very talented so we expect them to do a good job and we get disappointed if they don't. Beethoven only occasionally went wrong but at the end of his middle period his work takes a terrible downward shift (fortunately briefly) with his cantata 'Der glorreiche Augenblick' and other weaker commercially motivated pieces around the same time. Coppola has been much criticised over the last couple of decades - I certainly don't see much deference around with his recent movies.

[@janmichaeljablonsky9847]

@@themusicprofessor I do think that critics root for and want to show deference to artists who have reached their final act, be it Beethoven or Coppola. However, if they're professionals they must give an honest opinion. I viewed the first twenty-five minutes of Megalopolis at which point I bailed, and like his other films in the last thirty years or so, it's evident to me that he's lost his ability to communicate with his audience. He was once a brilliant storyteller, not so at this point. The reviewer in the New York Times was correct, his film is very personal but that's all that comes across...again, lack of communication with the audience. The aesthetics of the film made me slightly nauseous, and after I finished that twenty-five minutes, I rewatched his 1966 marvelous screwball comedy, "You're A Big Boy Now" to cleanse my brain pallet. Say what you will about eighty-eight-year-old Woody Allen, with a good script, he's still got it, at least that's how I feel after seeing the somewhat flawed "Coup de Chance." As for critics in the time of Beethoven, I don't think anyone knows how those guys viewed Beethoven or anyone else and it's my guess they were far more prejudiced than today's counterparts.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well, as I say, I don't expect everyone to love Megalopolis! But I also think that late style work doesn't do what early or middle-period work does! He doesn't make those kind of narrative-driven films anymore and that will of course disappoint people who want him to but... that isn't what he's doing now. And that's surely OK. I wouldn't say Megalopolis doesn't communicate - I think it communicates a great deal - almost too much in fact!

[@janmichaeljablonsky9847]

@@themusicprofessor I only want to say one more word about the film. If I want to see a Roman Empire allegory, I merely have to look out my window.

[@ricardobufo]

@@themusicprofessor "but at the end of his middle period his work takes a terrible downward shift (fortunately briefly) with his cantata 'Der glorreiche Augenblick' and other weaker commercially motivated pieces" That's cos Ludwig was a rotten choral composer. The Ninth Symphony is wonderful until they start singing. He also wrote much less dross than Wolfgang cos he never had to bow & scrape to get paying commissions.

[@davidhowe6905]

It's also possible to err in the direction of assuming an artist's late style naturally eclipses their earlier work, and thereby ignore the latter (former?).

[@themusicprofessor]

Actually I don't think there's much chance of this because popular work tends to come from the early/middle period.

[@davidhowe6905]

@@themusicprofessor Thanks for replying, maybe I'm an exception here. In my own case, this attitude, acquired largely from a friend's veneration of the late Beethoven quartets, delayed my appreciation e.g. of earlier Haydn and Bruckner.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, that can happen. I remember being a bit like that as a (weird) teenager. Obsessed with late Beethoven and Parsifal and things. But eventually you start to appreciate fresh, simple things too! All composers progress from the fresh and the simple to the more complex, more mysterious. I guess that's how life works.

[@AHmastalb-xp5fq]

There also seems to be a tendency to return to a kind of simplicity, but perhaps a stranger simplicity with intimations of everything that came before. The bagatelle you wonderfully played seems to be in this category. Late Schumann (Gesänge der Frühe for example) comes to mind as well.

[@jonb4020]

It would be hard to deny that at his best Beethoven was a musical genius. He wrote some magnificent masterworks - Symponies 3, 5 and 6, some stunningly bright overtures, a violin concerto, most of the piano sonatas and all the PCs, for sure. Sadly, as he aged, his faculties clearly began to deteriorate, and most of his late stuff is (IMO) not particularly pleasant.

[@themusicprofessor]

Interesting. That's quite a early-19th century view. I personally disagree.

[@ricardobufo]

What has 'pleasant' got to do with great music? Great art should wring everything out of you .. including the ugliest emotions. Ben Britten was, of all the Great Composers, perhaps the greatest master of this. He juxtaposed horror with moments of indescribably heart wrenching beauty.

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@ricardobufo Each to their own. For me, there is enough heart-wrenching in daily life (not from personal experience, let me be clear, but from exposure to people whom I have to deal with professionally). Music is entertainment. Then again, I don’t watch horror films, either.

[@jonb4020]

@@ricardobufo Not for me: music is about beauty, not ugliness. I think I'll go with Wolfgang ("Ich möchte alles haben was gut, echt und schön ist") rather than BB! That said, A Ceremony of Carols is stunningly good, IMO.

[@themusicprofessor]

Just to translate Mozart's famous creed: "I want to have everything that is good, real and beautiful" - which is true of all great music. The Rite of Spring and many other very dark and dissonant things are also "gut, echt und schön."

[@tomsrensen9382]

Also geniuses burn out. It's that simple. Think of ABBA.

[@themusicprofessor]

Bands always burn out, partly because they are the product of youth and collaboration. The best bands also manifest the Late Style pattern though (the Beatles are the most spectacular example probably, But you can detect it in solo artists like David Bowie, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Jonny Cash etc.)

[@tomsrensen9382]

@@themusicprofessor I agree. And then some make the terrible mistake of reuniting. Think of ABBA!

[@AtomizedSound]

Abba burnt out because of discord within the group itself which happens as explained above to most bands. Not that their style becomes obsolete or stagnate as much but that can be a factor too as well. Abba reunited one last time and did well and their last album did well. They acknowledged that they probably wouldn’t do anything anymore and resort to digital avatars in the future taking over for them. So burning out is a bit of a misnomer but somewhat true too.

[@tomsrensen9382]

They were smart enough back then to stop at their peak and they now screwed up by releasing a bummer, absolute trash. WTF were they thinking? I'd rather listen to an AI-bot.

[@themusicprofessor]

BTW you may not have seen this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnm7q4KJpZJ9g9ksi=grZuzPZnQbOktgeQ

[@ericrakestraw664]

The piece you played sounds so similar to Op. 126, No. 5, I thought it might be a discarded draft by Beethoven.

[@themusicprofessor]

The two pieces certainly have similarities of key, character and rhythm, and I believe were both written the same year. Oddly though this one seems to have been added in as 'no. 12 of the Op. 119 collection of bagatelles by Diabelli (possibly at Beethoven's suggestion - maybe because of the similarity to Op. 126 which he presumably preferred in that set.) Although Op. 126. 5 is wonderful in every way (presumably you've seen this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2HEmZiXpaqJorssi=HlcJKCk4kvXg88Pe) I love the form of this less well-known one - the wonderful rethink of the little recap and the superb coda.

[@aidengregg]

Likewise, Schumann's Gesänge der Frühe and Geistervariationen are epitomes of the genre.

[@themusicprofessor]

Oh absolutely. Superb examples. Thank you for mentioning them. Gesänge der Frühe is such a wonderful and strange cycle.

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@themusicprofessor Prof … As a cinema critic, do you have any views about movies dealing with musical history? Like Amadeus, for instance - absolute rubbish in terms of historical accuracy - but so lovingly created that you feel transported to Mozart’s time and Mozart’s milieu. Or the Beethoven movies (not the ones featuring St Bernard dogs), like Beethoven's Nephew, Immortal Beloved, Copying Beethoven, Louis van Beethoven, or the made-for-television Eroica. Or, as another example that I love for its recreation of time, place and context, Topsy Turvey, the movie about the Gilbert and Sullivan partnership and the writing of The Mikado. Or the recent movie Maestro, about Leonard Bernstein, which I admit to not yet having seen.

[@themusicprofessor]

@anthonymorris2276 Funny you mention Amadeus because in our next big video there's a tangential discussion about Amadeus and how it's not true but on some deep level it is! I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen many of the Beethoven movies (I need to! what do you think of them?) but I did see Eroica and quite liked it. I love Topsy Turvey - one of Mike Lee's best films! You can see my little review of Maestro here: kzbin.infoz727i1Y_Gik?si=eL4CDR16MORnSkcs

[@lloydpayne6668]

Well, suppose great music from history utilises repition and development and gets the balance right in the swee spot.

[@billcook4768]

I think you’ve got a great genre (late works) to talk about, but the wrong subject. FFC’s great works are 50 years old. He hasn’t done anything even good in 30. This isn’t a misunderstood experimental film. This isn’t a film being unfairly judged because it’s different from an artist’s early works. This isn’t a film being rejected because it’s the future people aren’t ready for yet. It’s that most boring of things, a bad film. And Megalopolis certainly isn’t the poster child for an independent film that is regrettably doing poorly at the box office. It’s a film made by one of the biggest names in the history of cinema, full of big stars and a $100 million+ budget. Meanwhile there are tons of actual indie films, good films, that struggle to get the first bit of attention.

[@karlkarlos3545]

Maybe you don't remember that he financed the whole film himself, mostly by selling one of his vineyards. To call his film not independent cinema, is not only false, it's outrageously false.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, I know it's unpopular! I realise that Coppola's is a hugely expensive film - though largely self-funded I gather. Look - I have friends who are independent film-makers so I completely understand their situation and realise that it's different from FFC! What triggered my little video was seeing Megalopolis in an empty cinema: it seems a significant cultural moment. I disagree about the movie: I don't find it boring at all: to me, it seemed a hyperactive cinematic…dreamlike thing: like Fellini meets Bollywood (see Utsyo's comment earlier). Wildly overblown but remarkable for an 84 year old director. I haven't seen many of his recent films, except Tetro, which I quite liked.

[@aidengregg]

This bagatelle is the lesser twin of Op.126, No 5.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well - I'd say it's the lesser-known twin. It's very lovely in its own way.

[@aidengregg]

@@themusicprofessor Could be. But if Beethoven saw it like that, it might explain his reluctance to publish.

[@themusicprofessor]

The two pieces certainly have similarities of key, character and rhythm, and I believe were both written the same year. Oddly though this one seems to have been added in as 'no. 12 of the Op. 119 collection of bagatelles by Diabelli (possibly at Beethoven's suggestion - maybe because of the similarity to Op. 126 which he presumably preferred in that set.) Although Op. 126. 5 is wonderful in every way (presumably you've seen this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2HEmZiXpaqJorssi=HlcJKCk4kvXg88Pe) I love the form of this less well-known one - the wonderful rethink of the little recap and the superb coda.

[@robertmueller2023]

Leo Tolstoy: Beethoven was talentless???

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, he didn't like Wagner either, and he asked Rachmaninov what the point of his music was which poor SR found completely crushing. Great novelist but a very poor judge of music and pretty mean-spirited.

[@anthonymorris2276]

@@themusicprofessor Russians are not known for their tact and delicacy … just think of Tchaikovsky’s comments about Brahms.

[@jeanpoirier9534]

I intend to see It a second time. It is not always perfect but fascinating ans bold.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes - I need to see it again too.

[@johnpaterson6112]

If you had said B wrote it at age 8, l would have believed you. Maybe you could have played it better.

[@themusicprofessor]

@@johnpaterson6112 thanks for the supportive words!

[@brianvanderspuy4514]

I haven't seen Megalopolis. Did not in fact even know it existed - I have largely lost interest in film because pretty much everything produced nowadays seems to be bland, boring slush. I can't remember when last I have seen a new film that was really memorable. It is as you say: lots of films now have this corporate, made-by-committee feel about them. All slick and professional, all the right political boxes ticked, often even quite entertaining - but a week later you can hardly remember whether you have seen the film, let alone what exactly it was about. So I'll make a point of seeing Megalopolis. It may be that it's a piece of horse manure. Lots of highly original films are. That's the price we pay for the few that are great, which is why I wish more producers would take the chance of making bad, bad movies, rather than bland ones. As for Beethoven's last period, it is indeed utterly strange and weird. He is often seen as the bridge between the Classical and Romantic periods, but the Romantics followed from his second period, not the last, which is so weird it's really unlike anything before or since.

[@themusicprofessor]

There are Romantic hints in late Beethoven (Mendelssohn for example was very keen on Beethoven's late A minor quartet Op. 132 and imitated it very brilliantly in his own A minor quartet) and the opening of the 9th Symphony had a huge impact - almost every Bruckner ymphony is influenced by it.

[@mossfitz]

Titian

[@mateusquasetuga]

You can say it. Comic book/supergero movies are universally shit.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well, my daughter has got me to watch quite a few. I think some of them are OK in a mildly entertaining way, but as a genre they seem pretty limited, and it worries me that they have become absolutely dominant in terms of audience figures and profits to the exclusion of more important and interesting and creative forms of cinema. But that seems to be the way the world is going.

[@johnryskamp2943]

This doesn't particulary sound late, which is true of several of his "late" work. Nor is it particularly original or good. No wonder it wasn't published. Why bother?