Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata played on Liszt's Piano

Joshua Rupley performs Ludwig van Beethoven's most ambitious work for piano, the monumental Hammerklavier Sonata Op. 106 - on Franz Liszt's own 1871 Bösendorfer grand piano.
This was a live performance in 2023 in the Riesensaal of Sondershausen Castle in Thuringia, Germany. Liszt frequently performed here and noted that the Sondershausen Orchestra was in his opinion the finest orchestra in Europe at that time.
This is a historical instrument in an unheated room - so please forgive the poor intonation of the instrument! It was tuned the day prior to the concert, but within hours the piano lost its tune.
I am fascinated by the soul, the character of this piano. And of course, it's terribly inspiring playing on one of Liszt's pianos!
00:00 - 1. Allegro
13:16 - 2. Scherzo. Assai vivace
16:13 - 3. Adagio sostenuto, Appassionato e con molto sentimento
35:30 - 4. Largo - Un poco vivace
37:54 - 5. Fuga - Allegro

[@WasiulWahid-ot7cj]

this sonata is even harder than it looks, especially the fugue. props to anyone who even attempts to play it. mastering this sonata is lifetime of challenge.

[@Highinsight7]

next to impossible... and ha plays it with such finesse...

[@JoEbY-X]

I am an amateur pianist and a friend who is a professional pianist once recommended to me that I spend a YEAR studying just the 4th movement of the Hammerklavier!

[@Highinsight7]

@@JoEbY-Xdo it!

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thank you! I appreciate that!

[@JoshuaRupley]

​@@JoEbY-X ​Yes, go for it! I spent a year studying it too. The result is this video. I brought it to my former professor from music college for some lessons before my first recital - I had 6 months to prepare it. She said, "what, are you crazy? I wouldn't plan less than a year of practice time before attempting this sonata in public." now, she's a Steinway artist.

[@kazeppa]

Wowee! Beethoven's Hammerklaver and Fugue on FRANZ LISZT'S own piano?!?! So lucky and talented to be such as you!

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thank you! I appreciate it. That sonata is a monster project, I worked on it for the better part of a year before this performance... It's a lifetime project I think. There's always something to improve, technical challenges to master!

[@armanzbahrani291]

@@JoshuaRupley - Non-piano player asking here: In terms of technically challenges, how does it compare to Liszt's or Rachmaninov's more difficult works? Wonderful playing by the way, seriously enjoyed it. Subed!

[@jorislejeune]

@@armanzbahrani291 this is often personal but for it was way harder than the Liszt sonata. It takes a crazy amount of dedication to bring Hammerklavier to concert level.

[@JoshuaRupley]

@@armanzbahrani291 I find the Hammerklavier Sonata incredibly difficult. Liszt's music is mostly very pianistic, comfortable to play, and for the most part gets you a great return on investment - maximal effect for your effort. (the sonata in B minor is still really challenging!) Rachmaninoff is also very comfortable for the most part. 2nd concerto is a great example, it's very comfortable and sounds awesome. Gaspard de la nuit by Ravel is widely considered to be pretty much as hard as it gets (I'm not making a ranking here, and some pianists find some technical challenges more difficult than others). That said, I had a muuuuuch harder time learning the last movement of the Hammerklavier Sonata than Gaspard de la nuit (a video of which I will be posting later today - stay tuned!) I have never encountered anything like that fugue before. It's a monster! The closest thing I can compare it to is maybe Berio's Sequenza IV or some suicidally insane contemporary music

[@armanzbahrani291]

@@JoshuaRupley - That is so interesting! Thank you for that!

[@martinbennett2228]

On the tempo, the American pianist William Mason tells us how Liszt played the Hammerklavier. This is in an anecdote about a young man who wanted to play the sonata to Liszt and his students (including William Mason). He writes of the pianist: "He sat down and began to play in a conveniently slow tempo the bold chords with which the sonata opens. He had not progressed more than half a page when Liszt stopped him, and seating himself at the piano, played in the correct tempo, which was much faster, to show him how the work should be interpreted. "It's nonsense for you to go through this sonata in that fashion," said Liszt, as he rose from the piano and left the room. The pianist, of course, was very much disconcerted. Finally he said, as if to console himself: "Well, he can't play it through like that, and that's why he stopped after half a page." This sonata is the only one which the composer himself metronomized, and his direction is M.M. half note = 138. A less rapid tempo, half note = 100 or thereabouts, would seem to be more nearly correct, but the pianist took it at a much slower rate than even this. When the young man left I went out with him, partly because I felt sorry for him, he had made such a fiasco, and partly because I wished to impress upon him the fact that Liszt could play the whole movement in the tempo in which he began it." Note that William Mason states that Liszt played "at the correct tempo" and later gives an approximate value for a "correct" tempo. www.hellenicaworld.com/Music/Literature/WilliamMason/en/MemoriesOfAMusicalLife.html#page_103

[@JoshuaRupley]

That's interesting! That must be what J L was referring to. I feel much more comfortable with a tempo of 100-120, like Mason. I just tapped my tempo in the video now, which was 114 (at the beginning. I didn't check whether I got faster as it went on). I like the tempo; if I play faster (and yes, I CAN play the piece at 138), the piece loses grandeur, expression and personality under my fingers. Maybe someone else out there can play faster and make it sound good.

[@benharmonics]

@@JoshuaRupleyI completely agree that the slower tempo is better.

[@dgdoc]

@@JoshuaRupley You are in good company. Glenn Gould would agree with you on the slower tempo! kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4m8gISkrb-Ih6Msi=tmRsKEHm2YVKnmnJ

[@alcyonecrucis]

My favourite recording so far is Paul Badura Skoda’s, but this one is even more charming !

[@JoshuaRupley]

Why thank you!

[@angelaknebel4156]

I love the Hammerklavier, and it's awesome I'm about to hear you play it on such a legendary piano!! Subscribed!!! Ooh you are sounding great already!!!! 🎵🎹🎵🎹🎵🎹🎵🎹🎵🎹🎵🙂🙂🙂🤗

[@louise_rose]

It's an epic work, effectively a "symphony for piano". I've had a splendid recording of it by a young Christoph Eschenbach for decades, and last week bought a set on Amazon with Alfred Brendel playing Beethoven's six final piano sonatas, including this one (and the best version of no.32 I have ever heard, one I originally bought on an LP alongside the Hammerklavier one). 🎶🎹😊

[@angelaknebel4156]

@@louise_rose Those recordings sound great!!! I recently listened to a fascinating masterclass where Andras Schiff did a complete musical analysis of the Hammerklavier, playing through excerpts of it too 💜 kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3WbeqaimZlkoZosi=R5pQ_2WlQNo4EOgW

[@pianorandi]

The headline certainly caught my attention. Wonderful sound, and a beautiful rendition. Subscribed 🎶

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thanks! I hope you enjoy perusing my channel and am looking forward to seeing you back at other videos in the future!

[@cziffrathegreat666]

It is said that this piece was considered impossible to play at tempo until Liszt gave a convincing account of it !

[@remomazzetti8757]

This performance is certainly not played at Beethoven's tempos. This guy completely ignores Beethoven's metronome markings.

[@davisatdavis1]

He was also a teen I'm pretty sure. Either 12 or 15. I know Busoni was 15 when he played it. But Liszt reportedly took a little over an our to play it (written down by Liszt).

[@louise_rose]

Yep, and Beethoven famously predicted that it would be played and properly understood by pianists fifty years after publication. Not far off the mark.

[@CaringCommentator]

Listen to this at 1.4x speed for optimal listening experience. : )

[@lubakeshyan1916]

Tempo is wrong bc an idea of Beethovens style is absent in everything: articulation, agogic , phrases, and everything what required to play his latest sonatas, its thanks to KZbin to place fest food advertisements, sorry but it’s impossible to play any sonata without proper education

[@luisbalona9608]

Thank you so much. So beautiful ...

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thank you for listening! I do my best to make the world a more beautiful-sounding place!

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

Merci beaucoup.

[@JoshuaRupley]

Merci aussi! Je suis content que tu aies apprécié ma musique

[@ingmarbergmanofficial]

Amazing playing. How did you manage to get to play on Liszt's piano?

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thank you! Cosima Wagner donated the piano to Sondershausen Castle after Liszt's death in 1886. Since then, the castle used to have a concert series focused on Liszt's music. I performed the Hammerklavier Sonata on the final concert of that series last November. Liszt gave the world premiere of that sonata around 1836 in Paris (I don't remember exactly when). The castle invited me to perform the piece on their series, I was just booked as a normal concert artist

[@paulcapaccio9905]

Liszt died in 1886. Love your art.

[@JoshuaRupley]

@@paulcapaccio9905 yep thank you for the correction. I've edited the comment

[@JoEbY-X]

Your adagio sostenuto is very appassionato and is with molto sentimento!

[@JoshuaRupley]

Why, thank you! That movement is the reason I learned the whole sonata

[@cambridgeport90]

Beautiful interpretation, gorgeous piano, and it must feel amazing knowing that you got to play on what is essentially the instrument of a god.

[@JoshuaRupley]

Haha thank you. It was certainly inspiring! Right across from me was a giant portrait of Liszt, which stared at me the whole time I was playing. Strange feeling being in such illustrious company!

[@stankaplan7747]

Would be fun to hear my Sonata Militaire on it. My mother told me it (the piano) was in her family until confiscated by the Nazis during WWII. No confirmation whatsoever on that although my (late?)uncle was a conductor of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra and concert pianist. My mother actually had a picture of him standing at the podium with his arms crossed holding the baton.

[@JoshuaRupley]

Sonata Militaire by Scarlatti? Do you mean to say this very piano was in your family before the war?

[@user-ff3ft1db6d]

I’m not a music buff but I know that the music needs to match my mood for me to really enjoy it. I remember my first experiencing the grosse fugue Op 133- it clicked! For some reason it made real sense to me, something I was not expecting. ( this is as listener not performer of course)

[@JoshuaRupley]

I'm glad to hear that! In some ways, I find the Große Fuge a bit easier to understand. It has more of a clear ending, with a real climax and some feeling of resolution. I feel like the Hammerklavier Fugue never really finds that resolution and just gets thinner and thinner before stopping altogether. Or what do you think?

[@harper7509]

FLUSH

[@potsdam521]

When you hear this piano is when Beethoven original metronome markings make sense. It should sound very nice in this piano at such pace

[@JoshuaRupley]

You think? I normally play a few clicks faster, but in this acoustic that was really the fastest you could make. Just imagine playing the Hammerklavier fugue while being chased by two other Hammerklavier fugues!

[@potsdam521]

@@JoshuaRupley maybe its the recorded audio, but I hear the sounds decays so fast, thats why I think the first movements fanfare opening will sustain better if play faster

[@cultofhercules]

It's amazing to play on them isn't it

[@rmcnabb]

Can't get in to the HK. I've been playing and listening to Beethoven for over 50 years and this one just leaves me cold. Beethoven wanted to make it "unplayable" by putting a super fast metronome number on it, but for me it's also "unlistenable". It always sounded like one composer wrote a few pages, then mailed it to a friend who picked up the thread and wrote some, then mailed it to a 3rd friend who again picked up on what had been done and wrote his ideas for a few pages, and so on until it was finished. I totally cannot appreciate what he was trying to say and I'm sure the fault is mine but so be it.

[@SSNewberry]

The audio is thin but the playing is top-notch.

[@JoshuaRupley]

Thank you! Yes, the audio does sound a bit thin, but the piano itself is also much less resonant than what we are used to hearing today. The notes go "pling!" and then vanish, especially in the higher registers. Lower down you can still hear some of that modern Bösendorfer sound in the making. But it was fascinating playing that glorious lyrical melody in the exposition of the first movement on an instrument that sounded more like a xylophone! It made me wonder what Beethoven's aesthetic in that passage really was.

[@SSNewberry]

@@JoshuaRupley The "pling" is normal. While I have not seen an illustrious example as you have, it is clear that they wanted a "salon" type feel for individual piano works.

[@paulcapaccio9905]

I am a pianist Juilliard trained. I studied with Ania Dorfmann . This performance is beautiful. Get away from the speed freaks of today and the half dressed cocktail waitress pianists . I’m not impressed with them. We must get back to real music making. An art long gone

[@alanbash2921]

I’m not sure if my reply went through ...you are 100% RIGHT ………Juilliard M.M. 1977 with Josef Raieff ....Best, Alan

[@paulcapaccio9905]

@@alanbash2921 ALAN before I studied with Dorfmann I was with Josef Raieff early 70s at Juilliard ! Best of times there. It’s all over now

[@paulcapaccio9905]

@@alanbash2921 we have stories to share I’m sure. Contact me

[@alanbash2921]

@@paulcapaccio9905. But not The Music !.........Best Wishes, Alan....... Mr Raieff was a great Man.....I worked with him for 5 Years.....Mannes B..M. .76 And Juilliard Masters In ‘77........where did all those years go ???.....it seems like a Twilight Zone sometimes.

[@paulcapaccio9905]

@@alanbash2921 certainly went by fast. Raieff was a very good teacher . I also worked with Adele Marcus She was crazy but she helped me get into Juilliard .

[@fortepiano_enthusiast-f8t]

is it a Viennese action Bösendorfer?

[@JoshuaRupley]

phew, good question. I didn't check, and I honestly don't know. It felt very much like a modern action to me, just with a lower key depth. I took pictures of the instrument, but mostly the case, the soundboard etc. I didn't take a look at the action.

[@nikb6176]

Interesting that it has a low key drop. Surely they kept the original action even if it has been re-felted?

[@JoshuaRupley]

@@nikb6176 that's normal for that time though. We're talking a key depth of 5-6mm on fortepianos in Mozart's day, to around 7-8mm on the mid 19th century, to 9mm at the turn of the century and 10.3mm nowadays! That's a big difference.

[@lorandviranyi1140]

I think it is not a Viennese action: you can see normal dampers on the picture.

[@moukka1760]

what microphone was used?

[@JoshuaRupley]

I don't know, to be honest. I didn't look closely. I think it was Rode... But I'll have to ask the man who recorded.

[@dorette-hi4j]

Nice performance! As regards tempo, Hans von Bülow (student of Liszt) would have approved - in his 1871 (same year as the piano) edition of Beethoven, he says this in his note about the Hammerklavier first movement (his metronome mark is half-note = 112): "With the metronomization, which essentially reflects the character of the main motif, the editor finds himself in a considerable contradiction to Carl Czerny's ... Czerny's tempo half-note = 138 [in fact Beethoven’s, but von Bulow obviously did not know that], which is so unsuitable for the powerful energy of the theme and seems too quick even for the sections of this movement that are capable of greater acceleration, perhaps finds a kind of justification in the lower sonority of the Viennese pianos of the time. On a concert grand piano of the highest quality today, and such a piano (certainly an orchestral surrogate) is required to adequately execute this sonata, Czerny's tempo would appear confusing and blurring." Note his assumption that Beethoven was writing a sonata that could only be played adequately on a piano of 50 years in Beethoven's future!

[@JoshuaRupley]

Great quote! Thanks for sharing it! Funny that you mentioned it being suited to a piano made 50 years in the future, because that's exactly what Beethoven wrote Artaria (his publisher) when he composed the piece: "I am sending you a sonata that will be played in 50 years." or something like that. I can dig out the quote and post it here

[@JoshuaRupley]

As far as tempo is concerned: I often sing the piece to find my favorite tempo. And the tempo for the first movement which I naturally sing - vibrant, powerful - is upwards of 126. 138 seems like a slightly exaggerated version of my theoretical tempo. But it's barely feasible at the piano and, if you can play in that tempo, it's just plain bad taste. So that's why I often describe that tempo marking as more philosophical than literal. Beethoven was just composing in his head, he couldn't hear the actual effect! Otherwise he might have turned it down to, say, 120, which is still extremely fast. Who knows?

[@dorette-hi4j]

@@JoshuaRupley I remember that quote as being something like "this will give pianists something to think about for the next fifty years" - he could have said the next 200 years! In practical terms, I am sure you are right about the tempo of the first movement. Whether Beethoven himself could play it (he did still play the piano in 1818, though not in public, and he had some hearing) at full speed, or thought it should have been played at full speed, is another matter. As you say, who knows? Thank you, anyway.

[@Lion_McLionhead]

There's no good documentation of the interior of Sondershausen Castle.

[@JoshuaRupley]

No, and much of it is in dire need of restoration (as is the case in much of former East Germany). It was a big deal for the community to get the finances together to renovate the Riesensaal (Hall of the Giants), where the concerts are held. But some of the rooms off of there are in bad shape. You can tell it's a pompous place! But it needs work done. Here are some pictures: instagram.com/p/CzRkUpBLUgO/?igsh=dGdzbWxjMmNkb24z

[@arteguey]

What a beautiful interpretation. However, the quality of the recording is not that good...

[@herobrine1847]

What about it isn’t good?

[@JoshuaRupley]

It's pretty direct because of the mic position, but the piano really did sound like that. A bit "plingy". We can't judge the sound of the instrument by the modern concert grands we're used to hearing!

[@nikb6176]

After all, it is a Hammerklavier. Very different construction to pianos of the 20th century.

[@arteguey]

@@JoshuaRupley Thanks for your answer. I'm not referring to the sound of the piano - a 19th Century instrument - but to the quality of the recording, which is a different matter.

[@reamartin6458]

1.5x speed playback is fantastic 😉

[@JoshuaRupley]

Maybe I should upload a sped-up version for all the metronome fanatics out there...

[@paulcapaccio9905]

Your tempo speaks beautifully. I am Juilliard trained and refuse to listen to speed freaks and half naked cocktail dress pianists. We’ve lost the art of making music.thank you competitions . No more rubato no more phrases allowed . Your performance is a breath of fresh air . Thank you!

[@JoshuaRupley]

@@paulcapaccio9905 thank you! I appreciate that very much!

[@reamartin6458]

I like your playing, was meant as a compliment…I could care less about the metronome debate, and speeding up piano videos is a blast. Please upload anything you want, I enjoyed the presentation. Well done. Artist diploma RCA and DMA Juilliard for what it’s worth bye ✌️

[@reamartin6458]

Yeah it’s a serious problem bikini 👙 is for the beach 🏝️ and that’s even debatable.

[@bootman26]

Well, I made it through three minutes of my most hated Beethoven Sonata, so that's a compliment. If I die and go to hell, this sonata will be playing non-stop.

[@JoshuaRupley]

That is quite a compliment! For me, it would be Les adieux... Can't stand that piece (hope nobody comes to lynch me now...)

[@ojotut]

Interesting. I would much rather hear Liszt on his piano. Why Beethoven? I really don't like Beethoven's piano works, though maybe all those horrible thick chords in the bass sound less dreadful on such a tinny piano. These old pianos actually sound pretty bad. I hope they sounded better when they were new!

[@r.i.p.volodya]

Far from the metronome marking again...

[@JoshuaRupley]

😂 I certainly hope so. Anyone who plays Beethoven's metronome markings is insane!

[@r.i.p.volodya]

lol But that's what Beethoven wanted! It is our job as pianists to realize the composers' wishes, no?

[@j.vonhogen9650]

​@r.i.p.volodya - I can't name a single pianist who plays this sonata in the exact tempo as indicated in the score. This is actually an old discussion that keeps popping up without a definitive conclusion. A significant number of pianists and experts believe those indications are either a mistake or were meant to characterize only the general perception of the tempo that Beethoven was after. Some musicologists even think the tempo was supposed to be just 50% of the indicated tempo, and there are lots of other theories and suggestions as well. I don't think this debate will be settled anytime soon, so until we have reached a clear consensus on the matter, I guess it's up to the pianist to decide what the tempo has to be.

[@r.i.p.volodya]

Thank you so much for replying. I've followed the debate myself very closely. The only pianists that come close to Beethoven's metronome mark that I know of are Schnabel on the piano and Brautigam on the fortepiano. Personally I don't think it is physically possible to do on the piano - BUT - the hysterical energy the piece takes on as you get close to the marking for the first movement MUST be a hint as to the character He was after. It CANNOT sound relaxed or comfortable; relaxed or comfortable is NOWHERE NEAR what He had in mind. (As for the "two-clicks-per-beat" theory, as far as I'm aware there is ONLY ONE musicologist who espouses it (a German fella whose name I forget) based on the interpretation of one sentence from one source. There is NO consensus AT ALL that everything we've ever played should actually be half the speed we've always taken them, and so I give it no credence.) I suspect that you perfectly capable of upping your tempo by 30%.

[@jorislejeune]

@@j.vonhogen9650 whether one like the tempi given by Beethoven is a matter of taste, but quite a number of pianists have realised these (insane?) demands. I suggest you look for Minkyu Kims version, also Stephan Möller and Friedrich Gulda (live) have played the Hammerklavier at Beethovens MM. They can be found on YT.

[@edwinstar100]

It sounds awful! Perhaps some new hammers, a tuning or two! lol not a blended sound at all. The miking does not help.

[@whodat9198]

I'm not sure, but I think this is probably a straight strung piano which was common for the time based on the harpsichord. Cross strung only came about from a patent by Steinway later on

[@JoshuaRupley]

Yes, it is straight strung. Here are some pictures of the instrument and the hall: instagram.com/p/CzRkUpBLUgO/?igsh=dGdzbWxjMmNkb24z

[@JoshuaRupley]

The piano was tuned less than six hours before the concert and the hammers are less than 20 years old. It's just not as resonant as you're used to on modern instruments. Above C6 it basically sounds like a xylophone. That's just the way it is, not an issue of care! The piano is 153 years old, and it's amazing that is can still be played.

[@edwinstar100]

Thank you for reaching out, I enjoyed all of it and am thankful that the sound has evolved and continues to do with the engineering of modern pianos. This piano at 153 years is a true living relic, The performance space is really gorgeous. My somewhat strident response was more about my personnel disappointment with my piano, and I apologize.

[@hesido]

I have mixed ideas about whether I should feel good about not understanding nuances like this.