Beethoven Sonata Nr.14 "Moonlight" - Opus 27 Nr2 - Historical Tempo Reconstruction- Wim Winters

[@themrbadluck]

It's funny how an academic elite take a false authority for granted. And this happens in most academic environments. We've lost the capacity to enjoy good theories, good music and most importantly, to respect our peers as human brothers. Your studies, Wim, be it of this sonata or even of Mozart's Turkish march, show that a strictly mainstream rigid view of musical interpretation is not fit in a complex science such as music. Your work is a delight and really brings us much closer in the heart to these musical geniuses.

[@themrbadluck]

@@geiryvindeskeland7208 I'm talking about argument from authority, not about being right or wrong.

[@BaroqueBach.]

Time stamps for myself (KZbin music doesn't show them) : 0:00 Adagio Sostenuto (Czerny/Simrock Ed. MM Q=60) 9:47 Allegretto (Czerny/Simrock Ed. MM Dotted Half = 80) 13:33 Presto Agitato (Czerny/Simrock Ed. MM Half = 92

[@hansongnaily]

You actually made me confident again to practice piano. I have always been very confused on why people play piano like a sport when it is supposed to make you enjoy the music. It discouraged me a lot. I gave up unwillingly. Thinking that people would ridicule me playing slowly. Btw, it's true I'm not technically good and that's why I say slower, but it didn't stop me from enjoying a slower tempo, especially pieces that actually sound better at a slow tempo. Sounds get to resonate to the fullest , reflecting though the space around us.

[@hansongnaily]

But I have to admit it gets kinda boring listening at this tempo. However, I don't think it's the same feeling to the pianist. Playing slowly is not boring but listening someone play slowly is boring.

[@SatikCZE]

@@hansongnaily I have completely different opinion, I am much more enjoying and perceiving it played at this tempo.

[@kensurrency2564]

You got it. Space is the key. It’s not the notes or how many are played. It’s the space between the notes that is important. Bravo!

[@michaelnancyamsden7410]

Agree with you. Us intermediate players do love to strive. I get very discouraged hearing the wizards play. Often the music is run over and smashed.

[@Eliza-yd7fi]

@@kensurrency2564 lol

[@nikitariskin1898]

This sonata is beautiful in every tempo

[@jimgraham6722]

Agreed, extraordinary piece of music, allegro, presto, agitato, whatever. Amazing how these ladies, Valentina, also Tina S m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/pWfVc35md9Z_aNk have nailed it.. I like to think Beethoven would have been delighted.

[@dunja1069]

Yeahh❤️❤️❤️🌍🌍🌍

[@batner]

The first part is very grim at 30bps. I play it at 45ish and it changes....

[@gustavf.6067]

Wim, I played this for my final recital in music school and after graduation (2007) I didn't play the piano for another 10 years. I was burned out and lost interest, not because of this sonata but because of the effort I had to put on playing everything to such a high level. Everything was high performance and speed and not pleasure and love for music. I returned to the keyboards because of your work in this channel and I'm now in a serious relationship with the harpsichord, which was always my greatest passion. And most importantly, I'm teaching piano to my wife and she benefits so much from it. You just can't imagine the amount of good you're doing.

[@thomashughes4859]

Gustav! I played Op.13 for my graduation, and didn't return for FORTY YEARS! I'm glad you have more time than I. Congratulations!!!

[@gustavf.6067]

Wow So I'm not alone! That's great to know. You should get back to it too, even if it's no more than a few hours per week. Thanks for sharing!

[@gwojcieszczuk]

I graduated from secondary music school (piano) in Poland. After my final recital with Orchestra (Cesar Frank Symphonic Variations) I didn't play piano for 15 years. Returned to playing again 2 years ago, and practicing pretty much every day now.

[@AuthenticSound]

That's so great to read Gustav, in fact, musicians like you are the reason we do all of this. Hence the title of the channel and of the new book that we're writing: The Unchained Musician. Unchain you from today's practice completely and free your inner musician by reconnecting you to the authentic voices of Beethoven, Chopin, ...

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

Here's a piece that a a couple of years ago I'd have said I didn't really think I needed to hear another performance of but this shows me that would have been completely wrong. New things that you never get from industrial speed performances all through the piece. And all of them with the revelation of what the music played on a piano that would have been familiar to Beethoven is like that a modern iron frame, cross stringed 9ft. grand can't easily show you. It's clear this was the sonority that Beethoven was composing for. I'm learning so much from these performances. I have to wonder what Chopin as carefully treated would show, I might like his music a lot more than I do now, as well as the other composers of this period and right after. Thank you.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you Anthony, it means a lot to me

[@williamhuband7913]

I do so agree with you - well put !

[@myrovanloon4030]

We know a little about Chopin. He played very soft, so soft he was hard to hear at times. We also know he used to play perfectly in time, never slowing down. And if he did use rubato, it was only in his right hand.

[@nikvalinsky]

@@myrovanloon4030 Also that he weirdly didn't use a lot of pedal?

[@alexgorron6470]

Have you seen the video: David Rubinstein speaking of the “Moonlight” Sonata - What’s the right tempo?

[@alantaylor2694]

I don't think I've really 'listened' to the 3rd movement until now. Just marvelled at the performance not the music. Lovely.

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you Alan

[@YAYAYASHA]

The slower tempo of this piece invokes the softness of the moon light in the darkness, its very kind but lonely feeling. I enjoyed this very much

[@AuthenticSound]

thanks

[@hellomate639]

The problem is that the moon isn't what this is about. That was added later as a name by a poet. "It's Sonata quasi una fantasia." I don't like the half-speed theory tempo. It sounds wrong to me. What I tend to notice when Rachmaninoff plays his own work and others is that he actually does play it faster, but it doesn't lose its musicality. This slow tempo makes me feel like I'm losing the structure of the piece, like you lose the forest for the trees.

[@joelmacinnes2391]

This sonata has nothing to do with moonlight thougg

[@antoniosilva7083]

@@hellomate639Exactly!

[@BaroqueBach.]

​@@joelmacinnes2391 The fact that it is not Beethoven's naming has no effect on what it must have evoked to the person that coined it as such. The poet clearly felt that moonlight had similar provoking qualities to that of the tone of the piece, as well as many others that then attributed such a name to it. If anything, the fact that other people of the 19th century described it so, proves to me that this sonata was taken in a tempo similar to Mr. Winters' in Beethoven's own time.

[@steste2074]

I don't really know whether your "theory" about metronome is correct or not, but you play undoubtedly well, and this is really a "new" way to hear such masterpieces

[@rhythmharmony2923]

I totally agree!

[@davidhalldurham]

Mr. Winters, this was absolutely breath-taking, especially the third movement. For the first time in my life, I heard every note and nuance. I felt like I was dancing to the music. Normally, the third movement makes me feel like I'm on amphetamines and I need to run around the block a few times.

[@AuthenticSound]

great to read, welcome aboard!

[@s.d.d.6063]

Mr David, I by no means mean to disrespect anyone by writing this but if you ever studied this piece you woud definitely "hear every note and nuance" at this tempo while practicing. There is no other way around: to play at normal (e.g. fast according to most musicians but Wim and few others) speed you have to practice slow (even much slower than supposed "authentic tempo"). But that's it. That is studying and practicing. It's not performing. Metronome markings are the indicative (yes, indicative not compulsory at milliseconds) performance tempo. I did play this at this speed (actually slower, as i already wrote) while i was studying it. But that was not performance speed (which i achieved after hours and hours of practicing for my 8th year piano exam). An I can assure you that if you listened to any of the great Beethoven interpreters you would hear every note and nuance at "fast" speed as well. Beethoven was well known as a "piano virtuoso" in his time. Most of his music was known to be very difficult to play (ever heard of pianists declining to play his 4th piano concert and wishing to play 3rd instead because 4th was too difficult to perform without enough time to practice?). Why is it so hard to accept that when a composer wrote such as "Allegro", "Allegro assai", "Presto" and so on as his tempos he meant his music to be played fast or very fast? Why should he mean "Andante" where he wrote "Allegretto" or "Lento" where he wrote "Andante" and so on?

[@weirdchildren2550]

@@s.d.d.6063 If you did more reading you would know he didn't write a lot of the way his music is interpreted (such as tempo markings pedal, indications, and fingerings) these are things that are put on the page not by Beethoven but the people who are transcribing the music. The most accurate tempo marking and other stuff we have for this piece were left by his student but we do not know for sure this is how it is played

[@joelmacinnes2391]

@@weirdchildren2550 wel do you know what beethoven did write? '*Presto* agitato', if that sounds remotely presto or agitato to you then I don't know what to say

[@antoniocarlosgomesfernedag1637]

Can you tell me a modern pianiat that play this music in the "correct" fast speed and I can hear all the details and the nuances like I heard in this one?? For me even the major skilled like valentina dont were capable of show what mr. Winters show here..... Doesnt matter if you are very skilled, if you play in a chaotic tempo, you will sound chaotic... Theres no time to hear, to let the notes penetrate our perception....

[@robinier]

I just watched this video and your explanation video of you performing this piece and it makes me very emotional. I started teaching myself some piano in high school, and the Moonlight Sonata was one of the first pieces I tried because we had an old score for it lying around the house. I knew nothing about the tempo or anything, but this slower tempo was what I naturally tried to play it at. Partly because I wasn't that good, and partly because it sounded so beautiful. Piano was one of my few emotional outlets and I worked really hard to learn this piece, despite how difficult it was. I was most of the way through learning the first movement before I heard someone play it at the "correct" tempo. So I tried to imitate it, even though it was hard to play it that fast and never seemed quite right. I ended out giving up on learning the piece, even though it had been one of my favorites. Now you showed me that the speed I always felt was right was, in fact, the speed that Beethoven intended. It really makes me want to finish learning a piece I had always loved at the tempo that always felt right to me. Thank you.

[@richardcheese6161]

The second movement is so much more in place at this tempo, the way that it is typically played makes the second movement sound out of place and not fitting the mood as well. Thank you Wim for offering an alternative look into this music.

[@kevycanavan]

Not at all. The B section is clearly meant to be a dance/waltz. Doesn’t work at this tempo at all.

[@richardcheese6161]

@@kevycanavan Are you kidding? It sounds like a perfect minuet or other slow, elegant dance. Most dances should be graceful, and at this tempo fits better with the rest of the sonata.

[@jacekpiotrowski607]

Now it is the Moonlight Sonata… Only now did I understand the meaning of the title… ♥️

[@antoniosilva7083]

Fake name, you know…

[@jacekpiotrowski607]

@@antoniosilva7083 Yes - but it is not accidental…

[@phongleanh9183]

I love your tempo very much ! I appreciate your bringing the real Beethoven music to this world. Thank you mr. Winters !

[@AdrianaWhitney]

I’m in shock right now. Because I have been practicing for a while on a x2 this speed my brain is saying nooo 😂 I need to calm down 😓 love your performance.

[@AuthenticSound]

I know how it feels!

[@jj53368]

I always thought the 3rd movement was too much of a “show off” spectacle at the mainstream tempo. In the back of my mind I’m always like “it doesn’t need to be that fast”. Fascinating to hear your theories and your wonderful performance.

[@123Joack]

The kind of relentless, never quite resolving Stress Beethoven conjures up in the presto is not in need of a paranoid, hitchcock speed. It conveys perfectly a troubled, doubting, sometimes panicking sometimes resignating mind dealing with great anxiety or grief. Which is a great finale to the funeral music which starts the piece off. When people claim this music at this tempo wouldn’t have had a profound impact on its contemporary listeners, one is making a fool of oneself and of Beethoven. Rant over, eye opening performance! I framed my urtext Ausgabe and put in on the wall for this occasion!

[@AuthenticSound]

If you cannot wait to hear the sonata already now, the High Resolution audio files are available through Patreon (www.patreon.com/authenticsound) and Bandcamp (authenticsound.bandcamp.com/). Thank you for supporting these productions, we need you to continue!

[@Ariel1Dominguez]

Duuuude that shit was tight ! That third movement is so delicious and groovie. Patterns articulations for the win. Thanks you so much just subscribed. Will keep watching.

[@AuthenticSound]

great

[@rationalraven8956]

I love this performance, all the ornamentation is actually clear and audible, whereas in the fast performances it just sounds like a barrage of notes

[@AuthenticSound]

thanks!

[@aelithmackinnon8656]

This is precisely my take. This is so different from what I expect to hear that it feels like a different piece. There is so much depth, emotion, and a more complex tapestry of sound.

[@highbaritone]

I fully agree. It’s like I’ve heard it for the first time.

[@samjrose]

At this tempo, Beethoven's grief comes through. He knew his hearing was going and unlikely to return, he likely wasn't at the suicidal lows of 1802, but the realization of his loss almost certainly had hit home. The tolling bells in the first movement, a dirge for all those dreams unrealized. Denial in the 2nd movement, everything is fine, we shall power through. And anger, rage, bargaining, resilience in the 3rd. There is no way forward but through. This piece at this tempo becomes so much more PERSONAL and raw, exquisite in its intimacy.

[@jobaute3984]

That’s an interesting observation, Samantha. So true

[@joelmacinnes2391]

What's so special at this tempo? Aside from that it's not remotely presto or agitato, the two things beethoven writes that is

[@samjrose]

​@@joelmacinnes2391 for most concert presentations of this sonata and especially the 3rd movement, people play it like it's a race. All the musical narrative is rinsed out in favor of showing virtuosity (because it *is* tricky). At this tempo, it's a lot easier to place it in the context of where Beethoven was personally, especially since there is no evidence that it was a commission.

[@allansegall4502]

At this absurdly slow tempo, my grief comes through.

[@alexsyed1530]

It's crazy how we accept to judge people's lives, you shouldn't judge any person's life like you did!

[@pickler_pickler]

I have to say, after coming back to your video due to a nagging feeling of having my notions of tempi challenged, I am beginning to warm greatly to these ideas.

[@AuthenticSound]

Sounds great!

[@StrivetobeDust]

I feel vindicated. Years and years of my piano teachers telling me I was playing the first movement too slow. I always felt it sounded better this way. xD

[@Garrett_Rowland]

Really interested to hear this recording with historical pedal usage on a historical instrument.

[@backwoodzninja274]

People who have studied martial arts learn that "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." Tempo cannot simply mean the speed at which notes fly by - it must mean a sense of phrasing, a general attitude toward rhythm. I understand what you are doing and I think it's great. The establishment gatekeepers don't like it and that makes me like it even more. There are moments where it becomes blatantly obvious your tempo makes perfect sense; Especially in the more improvisatory moments near the end of the finale = when the moment with the scales near the coda appears most players have to slow the tempo down else they'd be forced to play at an impossible speed and in the end they make those scales sound like a totally undifferentiated blur yet even at this supposedly "slow tempo" they go by with great rapidity and your playing at those parts was flawless.

[@georgewkennaway]

Such a relief to be able to meditate on every note like this! So many times the pianist has kept me awake by doing interesting things when all I wanted was the ClassicFM experiene of soothing music!! Wonderful!!!

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read!

[@Pravdaband]

Listened to your tempo explanation, listened to this version 2x, Valencia s once. I think you are right on about Beethoven s tempos. This sounds more articulate and passionate, especially the 3rd movement

[@antoniosilva7083]

I've been listening to Beethoven's sonatas for over 50 years, by the most diverse pianists of all time. Wim's version, despite being excessive in its slowness, is a new experience, which I like precisely because of its novelty. Wim understands that his version sounds authentic, to me it sounds absolutely new.

[@13thcentury]

The best version I have heard. Truly. The tempo changes the 'voice', Presto is no longer a storm... but a passion.

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you

[@13thcentury]

@@AuthenticSound It is you who should be thanked. 👍

[@nicholasmeins4756]

I have no doubt that the first and second movements will sound phenomenal, but I'm especially interested to listen to the third movement being played at a historical tempo. Can't wait!

[@gunar.kroeger]

I'm looking for Beethoven in the comments to confirm this

[@pickler_pickler]

@nathan110063 savage

[@ohneptune]

the more I listen to it, the more I appreciate this tempo, i mean i discovered this piece with a fast tempo but this one is so better

[@davidgonzalez-herrera2980]

Thank you for your reforms that grow like seeds in the music scene. Thank you for this peformance. Graciaous muchísimo carnal.

[@lavendelle_swift]

This is the best interpretation of the piece. Really in romanticism feeling. I can't wait to hear Chopin's Nocturnes on Historical Tempo. Maybe, it will sounds even beautiful than today's interpretation.

[@AlbertoSegovia.]

John Clovis Verano Yes, talk about the nocturnes! Not a single of today’s interpretations sounds as “night” to me, yuck. :p I have tried Op. 27 no. 2 in WB, and I immediately felt the nocturnal atmosphere.

[@kensurrency2564]

I love how there’s space and time to absorb each note esp first movement. It’s more engaging for me. The story LvB tells is deeper.

[@robertklein8187]

I don't know how many times I've listened to this, and each time that shift from alberti to intervals in the third movement blows my mind. It's such a stunning effect that is hardly noticeable at the tempos of mainstream performances.

[@BennoWitter]

Beethoven:"I can't hear the difference."

[@AuthenticSound]

Beethoven: "why do people keep saying I was entirely deaf?"

[@lukathurinn7906]

@@AuthenticSound _"What? I can't hear you"_

[@divisix024]

@@AuthenticSound “Napoleon? I can’t hear you! You speak louder!”

[@pyrpoi]

@@AuthenticSound the problem might not be that he’s entirely deaf, but entirely dead. Both make appreciation of your performance hard. But I like it just fine.

[@BRL1611]

@@AuthenticSound Was Beethoven NOT entirety deaf??? Was I lied about that too??

[@anthonydecarvalho652]

Mr Winters, thank you again for all your work. You continue to be a true inspiration. I've learned so much from you. God bless you.

[@EdmundoPFN]

You've got no idea how long I've been waiting for this. Congratulations for the initiative to record such a monumentally famous work. I suppose it will attract a lot of "experts" to criticize you, unfortunately. My hint is: set your mind free and listen... I'm working on the same sonata in double beat and it took me a couple of months to get used to it. Now I'm very happy with the music I'm achieving.

[@musikerman52]

As a non-pianist it is actually enlightening to hear what actually happens in the third part. And the ultra-slow beginning is magical. Thank You!

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

About 3rd mvt: One of the #1 things that make me believe slower tempi are more historically accurate are those trills in the modulating alberti section...at faster tempi they are barely able to be played recognizeably. Plus it just sounds better.

[@nathanlaney1542]

Hello Wim, I'm a pianist, musicologist and part time conductor from Ohio, USA. One interesting thought in support of your double beat theory - In the 18th century there was an almost universal ONE rehearsal rule for orchestral music, often times the day before the performance. The musicians would get the parts, rehearse for 2 hours, then perform the piece the following day. Taking the MM markings as single beat, it seems insane that an 18th century orchestra could put together Beethoven's 3rd symphony, never having seen it before, in one rehearsal. I'd almost venture to say that it would be impossible. Even a modern orchestra filled with virtuosi, that have played these symphonies several times before, may have a difficult time pulling this off.

[@klop4228]

It's been said that orchestras of the time would perform at the level of, say, a high school orchestra nowadays. I've been in high-school orchestras. We did the overture to Don Giovanni. Rehearsed a couple hours per week (not just Don Giovanni, ofc). But in the concert we played it about half the tempo people play it nowadays, and, honestly, we pulled it off. I didn't know the piece before, and was honestly surprised when I heard it at the tempo it was 'supposed' to be. Just an anecdote, but I think it's relevant.

[@gilgermesch]

There are plenty of 18th century sources describing rehearsals and stating the need for rehearsals. There are examples of little to no rehearsal time, but by no means was this a "universal rule" as you put it.

[@nathanlaney1542]

​@@gilgermesch If you study the booking records from the theaters and orchestras themselves, in the 18th century you will see that yes, nearly all concerts used a one rehearsal one performance business model. Booking time in the performance spaces was expensive, and so was paying musicians. There are descriptions of orchestras rehearsing more than once, yes, but this was the exception rather than the rule - something you could only do if money wasn't an object, or the event was of a special nature. But the vast majority of ordinary performances operated on this renting-the-hall-twice policy.

[@hansongnaily]

Maybe they had practised before the rehearsal? But I get what you mean.

[@pjbpiano]

@@marekm.4249, what part of the statements did you misunderstand? Do you really believe that orchestras of two centuries ago can match today's top orchestras?

[@johnpaulmarkes]

If you're coming from Valentina or some outrageous speed interpretation, consider this. If you're driving erratically at 120mph vs driving at 60mph, the latter is going to feel slowed down, but imagine 60mph is the actual speed limit and you are now driving steady and controlling the vehicle well. Which should be considered better driving? Imagine calling 60 mph or even 70mph "slow"? Because people even criticize interpretations that are only slightly slower than people like Valentina solely for not being as fast. Try to listen objectively and imagine you were not conditioned to hear it at such a breakneck speed. The music is often better and sometimes even sounds faster if the notes are clearly heard and played well. Some people seem to care little about accuracy and emotion and are only looking at how fast it is over with.

[@hb3801]

Interesting take. More interesting that Czerny put those tempo marks in an edition he co-edited, because they contradict the tempi he gave in his Op. 500, Part 4, Chapter 2, regarding the proper performance of each Beethoven piano sonata. This IS in IMSLP and is worth looking at as one reference among many (in addition to the tempi, Czerny gives his idea of the character of each piece, movement by movement,, but for the "Moonlight" he gives the following tempi: (1) Adagio, quarter note = 54; (2) Allegretto, dotted half (one measure) = 76; and (3) Presto agitato, half note = 80. I really have to wonder about the use of the quarter note to mark time in the first movement, since the movement is marked in alla breve time and presumably a half note should be used. In general, the main debate about Beethoven's tempi is whether his mm marks are reliable or if he had a broken metronome, because the vast majority of them are blazingly fast by our standards. Many questions we'll probably never answer but the music, somewhat like Bach's, is amenable to different interpretations; that is, capable of transcending the instrument limitations of Beethoven's period and, within limit, different tempo choices.

[@102wingnut]

Really enjoyed this and the explanation was as fascinating as the playing!! While it's fascinating to try to recreate the original intent of the composer it is also wonderful to add personal interpretation and flavor. Well done sir!

[@johncoleman7122]

OK--Set the playback speed to 1.75x and you'll hear how fast modern players would need to play the 32 notes to keep them in tempo without slowing down. Now open up another tab and pull up kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKbGc5mOpah0bNU and play at normal speed.

[@Stashi1808]

The paintings you chose are profound and beautiful! Perfect choices. This music is like a mature lullaby, a fine aged wine that's taken out every 30 some years, or something to that effect, and still holds it's tasters everytime although it has aged, although the world is different from the world Beethoven knew. This tempo is somthing to savor! Bravo Herr Beethoven! Encore Herr Winters! Please, please, please do play Beethoven Kreutzer sonatas if you can find a violinist. You're viewers would adore that if possible. I love the wok you do.❤

[@dantrizz]

Initially i didn't like the third movement three way it's played here but since studying more and playing it, i totally get it and really love it

[@lucamurra7168]

If you can play it slowly... Disclaimer: just kidding :)

[@pjbpiano]

😁😁😁😁

[@novatwinkle7252]

If you can play it quickly, you can play it slowly.

[@orgelfan1675]

Nova Twinkle actually not

[@jakegearhart]

@@orgelfan1675 Actually yes.

[@C.A.03]

If you can play it slowly...you can play it much slower......

[@joffy1234]

I was hardwired into the quick tempo version for many many years but this is an eye (ear) opener. Bravo!

[@cfdbyrne]

I think the presto will cause a lot of agitato among concert pianists who love playing this movement at breakneck speed.

[@AuthenticSound]

there are several points to make to this presto, which I will in the future. One stunning element will be the passage (broken chords) in 32d notes are played today at a half of the speed of the rest, so in... WBMP. That alone should be enough to make musicians aware there is something fundamentally wrong in our approach. But as you can imagine, we like blaming Beethoven more than ourselves...

[@thomashughes4859]

@@AuthenticSound Yes, that's exactly right. They play it quasi ad lib, and there is no indication for that. WOW! 👍👍👍

[@alangreene9423]

I imagine the Presto to sound absolutely great at WB tempo. If you immerse yourself in this approach, you get a feel for the *character* of a Presto, rather than notes or beats per second (or kilometres per second).

[@jbertucci]

@@edwardyang8254 There's a sweet spot (from a purely personal taste POV) somewhere between 100-120 bpm, maybe stretched up to 130? Not like I can play it at more than 110, that is, the parts I've learned 😆

[@johnb6723]

@@edwardyang8254 And just leaves a horrible mess.

[@bakters]

It hits you right in the guts. And it hurts. But in a right way.

[@sairaramedmas5939]

At first I didn't understand your previous video (On Czerny and Liszt and the new musicians of 1840). Now it makes sense. I think the display of even-ness and the very stately interpretation makes all the nuances come out. The sense of time not being an alacrity due to shifting tempo, makes it even more curious why we listen to Beethoven. If it was all about speed then there would be no need for nuance and character or even touch. I am amazed at your balance and no hesitation but no brash speeds. It's almost as if there's something else in the Moonlight we are only now seeing because it feels less of a fading away than a rediscovery of the Moonlight. Bravo.

[@picksalot1]

I love hearing these "Historical" recordings, particularly in pieces that are harmonically complex. The Adagio is a Tour de Force of modulating tonal centers composed so skillfully that they are unnoticeable. for those interested, here's a link to a Harmonic Analysis showing the chords above the music: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3-lnmyteZ6tnZI Wim - The middle and lower registers of your piano are absolutely extraordinary! I feel transported and transfixed at the same hearing its majestic, sonorous tones. Beautiful performance. Thanks I was wondering if those who perform these and other works at something approaching twice the "Historical" tempo are able to execute the pedal indications? Are historical pianos able to "mechanically" make that possible?

[@gwojcieszczuk]

What a coincidence. I'm working on this piece currently. I've noticed many pianists take crazy fast tempo in last movement, which doesn't sound very well; all the details are very blurry. Curious to see what you will come up with, Wim.

[@paulchandler9241]

The fastest and most percussive, Gould's, sounds like proto-hiphop...and that sounds great! But it's probably not what Beethoven had in mind.

[@edgarpalomino2714]

I’m truly excited to see how the famous indication “Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino" will work out in a period fortepiano.

[@highbaritone]

I’m relearning this piece with great joy and with a little frustration. Haven’t played in a long time as singing took over. Love your site as I feel like I’ve found a well of knowledge. Thank you.

[@anisuthideyakoindu]

Honestly, this has so much more expression! It's just amazing!

[@lutzweb]

Oh my gosh you made me cry of joy, I really fell I m listening Beethoven 3rd movement for the first time!! This is fantastic, so many notes comes out. Thank you WIM I am not a musician, but I have discovered your channel and I am rediscovering music. I am sure you are right, I just feel the music comes to live with the historical tempo! Please continue with your research.

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you so much Luigi for sharing this with us

[@4034miguel]

It is incredible how you can hear and enjoy all the details of the Presto. All of this is lost with the virtuoso interpretations

[@surgeeo1406]

The beginning of third movement caught me off-guard, that bass is so percussive, my mind went straight to Rite of Spring 😂

[@harrisnaturist]

One hears the world of Beethoven throughout this performance: The stillness and quiet of a night without glaring lights and blaring horns; the poise of the ballroom; and the gallop of horses and the tumult of a storm in the countryside he loved so much. Never again will the breakneck "piano competition" speed feel right. Bravo, Wim.

[@aliceintune]

Their environment was so different. So raw. So peaceful, quiet and brutal.

[@periodinstruments8651]

On the authentic use of the pedal . I know there are a few posts on the subject but I wanted to highlight one point about consistency. If one consider that Czerny tempo indications should be taken at face value , then one should also take into consideration Czerny other indications on how to perform the sonata in order to be consistent, with a solid referential. In his book , 'On the Proper Performance of All Beethoven's Works for the Piano' ' , Page 49 Czerny mentions that 'Beethoven's indication means that the pedal should be changed with each new harmony for the whole movement'

[@AuthenticSound]

for the pianos of the time he writes it in

[@brendanward2991]

Easily the best interpretation I have ever heard of this masterpiece.

[@sabbastian]

Funny to think that modern classical performances are essentially nightcore.

[@AuthenticSound]

In a way... yes

[@TheRegulator87]

What is nightcore?

[@Eagleeyekiller]

@@TheRegulator87 Thats exactly what I was thinking. lmfaooo non of the smart people answered u tho

[@Eagleeyekiller]

@@TheRegulator87 got it! lol kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3qQXnZunbqpjNE

[@13thcentury]

@@TheRegulator87 some meme-ish thing where some kids speed up a song and raise voices to chipmunk pitch. Probably to avoid copyright

[@themrbadluck]

It's funny how an academic elite take a false authority for granted. And this happens in most academic environments. We've lost the capacity to enjoy good theories, good music and most importantly, to respect our peers as human brothers. Your studies, Wim, be it of this sonata or even of Mozart's Turkish march, show that a strictly mainstream rigid view of musical interpretation is not fit in a complex science such as music. Your work is a delight and really brings us much closer in the heart to these musical geniuses.

[@astralmarmoset]

It’s raining outside where I am currently, but listening to this performance makes me feel like the sun is shining. I don’t have words, but there are many feelings, especially of gratitude; thank you sir. 🙏

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you so much for listening and being here!

[@xuscbs]

Yeah, I like this version a lot. I'm discovering and enjoying new notes that I wasn't able to detect in the faster-than-the-speed-of-light versions. A lot of notes are lost in those versions (or maybe skipped?) I'm also able to isolate the melody and the bass if I wanted to. Just "seeing" this music a little differently, and I'm more inclined to believe you that this is mostly likely the way Beethoven himself intended and played it. Very enjoyable. Thank you for this outstanding performance.

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@susankinney5193]

That was FANTASTIC! Can't wail til all these pieces make it to Spotify! :)

[@almuel]

The best thing I’ve ever woken up to but damn I have to wait for another 34 hours.

[@victorro8760]

This is the first time 24:20 doesn't sound terrible to me. I thought playing it faster would sound better but apparently not!

[@melzlink4100]

I don't have idea if this Double Beat theory is right or not, but this sounds amazing.

[@crazymangoz9583]

This is the best recording of this piece by far. Hearing it be played in this tempo makes it so much better, especially when it hits the third movement. Absolutely excellent. Thank you.

[@paolopalicalligaris]

Like this version very much, bravo!

[@joseagustincandanedo2998]

Very interesting. The famous first movement sounds meditative, almost like something out of Arvo Part. It is a different, more profound feeling.

[@joseagustincandanedo2998]

But the third movement! Jeez, it is so much better. You can actually hear the notes!

[@AngusMV2011]

Great performance, Wim! Cheers from Brazil.

[@antoniavignera2339]

La potenza del genio e la grandezza dello spirito di Beethoven si rivela in questa sonata .Complimenti all’esecutore che ricorda il 250 della nascita del grandissimo BEETHOVEN!!!

[@AntonioSantosGarcia]

I am amazed with your rendition of this sonata. It transports me to a world I've never been before. Thank you so much for this gift. Sacrifying most aspects of the composition just for the sake of speed looses the beauty of the musical journey. I totally agree with your choice of tempi because you have proved it is right and supported by the sources.

[@MegaMech]

Time spent playing the pianoforte: 20% Time spent tuning the pianoforte: 80%

[@AuthenticSound]

70/30 might be closer to the reality but keeping this instrument in condition to record any time does require quite some time indeed.

[@MegaMech]

@@AuthenticSound The work pays off in the recordings though!

[@KrisKeyes]

It’s the Pareto Principle of Period Piano Playing!

[@mariusvanhandel2876]

Is there any instrument that does not need constant tuning? For string players, this is the most normal thing in the world. And the fortepiano has more strings that a theorbo (which notorious for requiring a heavy investment in tuning).

[@MegaMech]

@@mariusvanhandel2876 Tbh The modern grand piano requires tuning a little less often than an acoustic guitar. It loses tuning within a week. This pianoforte is likely much worse due to the wooden frame and type of strings.

[@pedroakjr2371]

One thing is for sure, it's clearer and more organized. If Beethoven would listen to the modern performances he'd probably say "holly hell I can hear again!"

[@quite1enough]

Can't thank you enough, Wim, for all your videos. I'm currently in extremely vulnerable psychological state, and one of the few things which keep my sanity is your records. Thank you.

[@bartk07]

Now this is Fully Understandable Music, not rushed, not tangled, not blured. Just right!

[@jbertucci]

Mvmt 3 sounds a little slow at 90 bpm, maybe something in the 110-120 range? Still I think most performers play it too fast. But it's still "Presto agitato". It should sound quick and distressed.

[@AuthenticSound]

As it does if you listen to what happens in the bass

[@jbertucci]

I'm not judging, just stating my 100% subjective opinion 😄

[@lilliboscaino]

This is played according to Czerny tempo indication, which is not aligned to the first edition. First edition states a tempo "alla breve" (meaning 2/2, so two beats) and adagio sostenuto. This means way much faster than this. Many other considerations on interpretation errors are on an interesting article by Brian Chapman "Grief, Denial and Rage: A Revisionist View of Beethoven's "Moonlight" Sonata" written in 2015, which can be found on the web.

[@AuthenticSound]

check my video on alla breve

[@prometheanhealing3942]

Thank you, good sir.

[@PointyTailofSatan]

The truth is that a faster tempo can be used to hide flaws in one's playing. Slow playing, on the other hand, there is "no place to hide". (I now spare everyone my usual ranting about Lang Lang. lol) I often cite Gould's amazing and very slow version of the Turkish March as a great example of this, virtually flawless "no where to hide" perfection. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4W9ZGZ7i7Bmi8k

[@yogame5199]

It is the right way to play moonlight sonata..

I love it. The last movement sounds strange at first, but once you get used to it, it is very enjoyable. I won't comment on "presto", but the "agitato" part is spot on. It at this tempo it sounds very restless, angry, fierce, deliberate, while at a fast tempo, it just sounds... fast (and technically impressive).

[@ethanduran7750]

Honestly I don’t know if I buy into the historicity of your tempo theory, but regardless hearing this played at a slower tempo on this instrument was very interesting, in fact I almost prefer this version now, so thank you very much

[@Miguelrodriguez61608]

I love Mr. Winters's Fortepiano ❤

[@robertokirschbaum8684]

Very good. Especially the Presto Agitato makes the other tempo sound like music for the Smurfs or Mario Bros

[@AntonAchondoa]

Even though I myself still prefer the usual quicker speeds, I find that you achieve great expression playing at the slower tempo so it never sounds boring or dragging. Regardless of the tempos a performer chooses, I think slower, expressive practice is a must. We should always play as if we have more time than we do.

[@johnprice3341]

Go to 23:16 and put it on 2x speed. That’s what it would sound like if performers didn’t slow down (minus the 2x quicker fade). I think it’s crazy to say that’s impossible. The hands don’t move, the notes are in place, then you just hammer them down and there is a nice pause between... This trill is a different story: 24:25 (2x speed 😂) good thing trill speed is up to the performer

[@stanelli]

When I first heard Glen Gould it aroused my interest in music as I could hear everything clearly, 40 years later I find my self in the same position and find my self hearing this piece by Beethoven as if for the first time, thank you Wim.

[@Zaleskee]

this is Fantastique!!

[@njigyfd]

fascinating

[@Thiago-jh1id]

WOW, the 3rd movement in this tempo is perfect! The first movement too but the third... Amazing interpretation, Wim.

[@sabakopernik7637]

The 3rd mvt. is written in agitato, so you can really feel agitation much clearly by playing in this tempo

[@ImJund]

excellent playing, but I absolutely hate the 3rd movement when played like this.

[@BRL1611]

I play this at a slower tempo when I'm by myself. When I play for others play a bit faster; about 6 minutes. I'm going to relearn this sonata with this new tempo thing in mind. This is just too beautiful not to learn the correct way these pieces should be executed.