Behind the Scenes at IHOP: Stories of Systemic Abuse Part 1

[@JeremyJamesWhitaker]

Just leaving IHOPKC staff here (as of a week ago) - just want to say, thank you for telling your stories. In many circles within the staff here, your voices were heard. and Rachel said it really well - "the Body of Christ is not okay with abuse". Long roads ahead looking back on this season and asking the Lord for mercy.

[@dzpwnfkaa]

I thought you were making videos stating that you were going to stick it out at ihopkc.. Funny how those are no longer up

[@JeremyJamesWhitaker]

@@dzpwnfkaa what video are you talking about? I didn’t delete anything 😬

[@GabrielHancock-dr2ou]

Love you bro. I’m right there with you. It will be a long road, but I’m finding that there’s much silver lining in the process

[@Jillousa]

Keep your eyes on Jesus through the healing process.

[@Balaamsasss]

I love what Rachel said to wrap it up. "In many ways this IS revival--the Body of Christ is not okay with abuse"

[@FireflowerDancer]

Amen! ❤❤❤

[@JulieMeyerMinistries]

I thought Rachel summed it up perfectly. Thank u Rachel - for those wise words.

[@christianwoudenberg3393]

Best perspective, a return to genuine righteousness. Forget the spectacle

[@Living_Water274]

You keep overspiritualizing everything you were going to get suckered into the doctrines of demons. It’s like you guys can’t stop. You know it’s bad for you but you keep doing it. It’s super weird.

[@jessicawilliams1944]

I 'm 44 now, and have heard about revival for the last 25 years about revival. Who started all that? it's almost like a goal instead of living the gospel in word and truth. I bowed out of the revival nonsense, and just cleave to Him, and ask what he wants daily.

[@sacredrose5477]

Very true. The Bible says “ Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel “ not sit yee in the prayer room 10 hours a day and pray for revival.

[@MichaelSpong]

It started in the 1940s. Look up William Branham

[@rustys5111]

Hyperbole like that is for fund raising. So many ministries do that, and many people are gullible.

[@SuzanneWyss-h3t]

Amen!

[@ludwigamadeushaydn706]

It comes from Latter Rain, etc. This whole thing has a very dark history.

[@ethantucker3191]

I promise this is a legitimate question. I am not trying to be uncharitable or undermine continuitionism, but does it bother y’all that there was never one prophetic word exposing Bickle as a false teacher? Given all of the prophecy taking place around him, how could no one receive a word that exposed his sin and helped the Church avoid him? I love you my brothers, and I am praying for you all.

[@TreeOfLifeWoodworking]

There are SOOOO many evil people in the Bible that had no prophet to call out their sin. In fact its the exception not the rule. So... maybe reflect on that

[@JulieMeyerMinistries]

This is such a good question - and it is a question so many of us asked. I am a dreamer - and none of us saw one thing. But it is a great question-

[@revelation_320]

its just another opportunity to catch a glimpse of all the delusions we cloak ourselves with. the delusions continue until we come to the end of ourselves and find God

[@qytjdfuocnguiofm]

I think about this too! Ken Fish tried to address this by hemming and hawwing and finally concluded that, "if someone really wants to hide something, they will be able to hide something" ...umm wut? The only conclusion I can come to is, "God didn't want the truth found out until the fullness of MB's sins have compounded and come to a head" Then God lances and squeezes the boil.

[@reallyangrysnowman]

There are guys like Derek Prince and other continuationist leaders who spoke out against MB.

[@joyalways1179]

I was in leadership at a church, 2 people came to me and complained about the pastor blowing up at them. I confronted him and he blew up at me! Yep, left that day. Other folks critized me, and all this is such validation! Yay Jesus! Thanks for sharing your tough stories. You learned and grew, and you still love Jesus. Don't think it a waste, thank Him in all things. Ain't Jesus awesome!

[@su....]

if more of us dads and moms, grandmas and grandpas, simply pastored our own households more, instead of handing over the spiritual life of our families to paid platformers and pulpiteers, the world might be a much different place xo

[@ivanasimic2072]

Bravo

[@amandabowers9396]

Yes! 👏

[@rebeccamatteson9643]

This on repeat day and night! Churches need to equip parents, not be the “outsource” to disciple the kids for parents.

[@kylemumberson4708]

Very true. Or have accountability in these movements.

[@Dana-hd8he]

I've been stupid saying false church institute has been a tool in the hand of satan to destroy the family and we let them do a great job. GO HOME, QUIT robbing your family, quit worshipping man over God and replacing God with a man who is NOT a true shepherd Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34!

[@Puddle-pb7dn]

I attended MCF from 1997 to 1999 and Mike Bickle was often « fasting » for long periods like 21 days but he never seemed to lose weight. There was something off about him.

[@1984SheepDog]

He was probably eating jack stack every night lol

[@Deckardcutspace]

I love how Dr. Mike (Hieser) said it, "Im willing to believe anything but I'm skeptical of everything."

[@cindytaillefer]

I went through (was asked to leave for "asking questions") a very similar abusive ministry nearly fifty years ago. When the sisters are talking about "trust," I recall in my healing journey that the one I needed to learn to trust most was myself. To trust that God really did put His Spirit in me, that I am really Jesus "sheep" and was hearing His voice. In order to "submit" to leadership, I was constantly suppressing the discernment God was giving me. Now I am often in similar situations, but I trust the red flags and leave. It is sometimes discouraging to see how far this type of abuse has crept into the system; but watching this video reminds me to trust that discernment again.

[@su....]

yes, it is systemic. at least in my experience. the whole system, from 'top' to 'bottom'.. the mega and para church ministries as well as the small 'mom and pops' on every church corner. we need a wholesale worldwide overhaul.. renewal?

[@LynnAllen-u6m]

Yes. Questioning isn't welcome in the USA any more, in or out of the church

[@aylerayler]

It's hard when you have discernment, but don't know what to do to fix a situation

[@EnlightenedPraise]

I can definitely relate to having to learn to trust myself. For several years I didn’t regularly attend any organized church but I read the Bible continually and grew so much in my knowledge of who God is so that I could trust that the discernment I have is actually a gift from the Spirit of Truth that lives within me. And it amazes me how abuse is perpetrated in churches of all sizes. How abuse within our society is actually very common practice as people have been conditioned to blindly follow those with power, platforms or money. I pay attention to a lot more it seems than many people around me because I’ve been subjected to abuse in different forms. And I’ve gotten a good look at how abusive systems and people alike have to have a good number of people around them to defend them. The biggest blessing for me in this journey has been that God has been my defender when no one else would defend me. God has been my provider and used people who tried to control me to provide the support. Not because I tried to get the support but because God is faithful and He is just. No one has asked me to sign any documents that I wouldn’t discuss my story either. So my testimony of sharing God’s faithfulness in the midst of man’s great moral failings hasn’t been hindered from accepting the financial support from an abuser. But I have good days and I still have bad days as I’ve navigated out of it all. And I go into churches asking questions because I don’t want to go get myself emotionally invested with people to find that it’s yet another abusive organization building their own kingdom and not His Kingdom.

[@AntwanRSmith]

One of the statements from the spiritually abusive church is if you don't believe like them, “If you don't get with the vision, you are bringing division.” These sisters are telling the truth.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

So sad -

[@AntwanRSmith]

@@TheRemnantRadio Agreed.

[@ivanasimic2072]

“If you don't get with the vision, you are bringing division.” Thats it!!

[@alpacapicnicfarm1789]

If you dont agree with the vision. Why would you stay at the church. Of course that is going to ultimately bring division in time.

[@ivanasimic2072]

@@alpacapicnicfarm1789 man made "vision" brings division !! God´s vision is written. Period

[@keith3362]

The whole ‘culture of honor’ term needs to just go bye bye. It’s been used to make people think questioning or disagreeing with leaders is not acceptable. And surprise, a lot of places that use this term are complicit in spiritual abuse.

[@Healthy.Whole.Dauntless]

If you feel like (sense in your spirit), you're not doing enough in the Pastors/leaders eyes, red flag. If spiritual leaders don't want you to question church theology and doctrine through critical thinking, red flag. I still experience this in church today. It's sad.

[@janets.4384]

Wrong! “Feel like” emotions is how the kingdom of darkness attacks. Go to your leaders and tell them what you are “feeling” and you need to verify if this is accurate. Otherwise, you are allowing the enemy to abuse you.

[@Healthy.Whole.Dauntless]

I agree. I hear you!

[@UprightRiley]

I was on staff at IHOPKC 2021-22. The biggest takeaway before leaving was the 'Word from the Lord' culture. Many many people seeking Words from the Lord constantly--I'm left thinking, "Dang! Crack open the Bible and take one personally!" We ended up leaving--our aim was becoming holistic well-rounded disciples (trying to love & obey all Jesus commands), and didn't fit into any department.

[@lavieenrose5954]

Fake Christianity

[@Tendervittle]

Non-stop with people I knew from ihop. Constantly asking if I had a word for them. Cheap entertainment

[@jameslinmd]

​@@Tendervittlecheap entertainment? We do need to pray into our destiny. Why do you think Jesus always gets up early and pray, especially when he enters the tough times? Constantly seeking prophetic word is excessive..but living in the world as you will isn't biblical either.

[@RuminativeEmbryologist]

Absolutely! Prophetic is an expression of what’s already in His Written word and the Word comes alive. Nothing more nothing less.

[@debrajohnson545]

Thank you Remnant Radio for pursuing the different aspects of what has happened at IHOPKC. Everyone keys on the sensational aspects, but many more people have been hurt by the other aspects of this.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

It's important that the truth is known.

[@HeldByTrees]

In 2002 I was invited to stay after visiting from England. I was all in, but thankfully my parents and church leaders at home didn’t feel it was right. So glad I didn’t stay. What a quagmire.

[@Jono_Fleming]

I’ve only listened to a little bit of this, but as a former student/staff member I’m relating so well to what I’m hearing from these amazing women. I left home in 2012, moved 1000 miles away, and gave so much of my life to this place. When all was said and done and I left I don’t think anyone said thank you for anything. Dozens of hours spent serving with my musical skills in the prayer room over 6 years and it was like I had never been there. That’s the short version and I know my story is not as tragic as some have shared, but after 6 years of being away from that place it is still a place of contention in my spiritual life. The Lord is good and has compassion on me, but it’s been a rough road. Thank you all for sharing

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Thank you for sharing, as well. Praying for all those who have been hurt.

[@Rocko1II]

​​@@TheRemnantRadio maybe try and find instances of God speaking to people prophetically or discernment on some of these scandal? I know they exist from experience. I know God uses prophecy and discernment but usually outsiders that get squashed. Also, maybe contrast difference between leadership styles and abuse...meaning. Teaching people wether it's this mission they are called to? Because on mission we do consider ourselves as Paul said " good soldiers"... Think of all those in the hall of faim sacrificed for obedience and mission. Maybe that mission isn't your mission. Contrast with say Elon Musk leadership style. Calling all nighters, giving employees 48 hours to relocate all standards he holds himself to. One engineer at Space X quit but came back and when asked why said he wanted to be burned out doing something big. And working other places lacked purpose. David's mighty men fetching water... Bill Gates in his day was a slave driver as was Steve Jobs. I think Paul would have been incredibly hard to work for and borderline abusive. How he treated Barnabas and Mark. How willing he was to publicly trash Peter. I think the key is all these people lead from the front inspiring people to do like them... Maybe clarifying leadership and organizational mission vs abuse. Maybe a mission isn't your mission. When navy is chilling on a boat launching missles maybe there are marines or Seals experiencing a fight for their life danger close. That's ok. And maybe one person's lifetime mission is your temporary assignment. Lifetime mission person has to be ok with people leaving and part timer needs to not feel guilty.

[@squeeks40]

He is able to keep that which you've "committed to Him against that Day." To quote Paul. You may have felt used and forgotten there, but God saw your heart toward Him, and will reward you.

[@DianaLopez-ll5hx]

I have not been to church for 10 years. I had to work it out with God. I am so glad that Remnant Radio addressed this issue. So many confirmations for me in what i had to deal with in church. Narcissim etc etc. Omg Thank you so much!! I never want to go back to church. I will stay home and love my God.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

We're glad that we helped. We do want to encourage you to find a healthy church. God's best is for us to be in Christian fellowship with one another. We pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you to a healthy church home and family. Blessings to you!

[@MiguelGebremedhin]

Rachel!! I was in the 2017 OTI fall track and I remember when you and Nathan became directors of the program. I admire your bravery and honesty

[@AledroArche]

Miguel sighting

[@wendyhansen9481]

Thanks to the amazing women here, as a former ihop staffer I relate very much to their experiences. You don't know what you don't know, and many of us did not know what we were experiencing was abusive. Thank you for opening up this very important topic, because at the end of the day how we treat people tells us more about our theology than what we say.

[@honestmann747]

Hearing about 18, 19 year olds whose only exposure to Christianity is IHOPKC is truly heartbreaking and terrifying. And the culture that encourages them to stay that way is nothing short of cult-like. Do they even hear the Gospel?

[@KorynneFeliu-de2xi]

In my first year of ihopu, I had a teacher who repeatedly verbally abused a student because of his questions regarding Calvinism. I felt really bad for him, the teacher was unhinged in my opinion. He left after that class and never returned. I have always wondered if Jonathan from South Africa was ok. 💔On the flip side, that same teacher had a really weird obsession with complimenting another male student for his good looks, especially his teeth. It was awkward. I avoided taking classes from that teacher for the rest of my ihopu career out of “offense” and ended up repenting for it and oddly, working for that teacher for years afterwards. Now, looking back, I see how all of this was a manipulation/grooming tactic. You stay silent and support the system, you stay and you receive favor. You ask questions or resist, you get reamed. This leader, I firmly believe, was at the core of grooming people for Mike.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Sorry to hear this.

[@lavieenrose5954]

Fake Christianity

[@aylerayler]

Oof, it's not oddly enough, it was groomed. If you're hurt, think of the eternal Gold, you must be experiencing this offense because God wants you to be like David humble yourself and serve. Etc etc how this propensity emerges out of the teachings at ihop is something I hope to get a better handle on personally.

[@janets.4384]

No it wasn’t! I’d have to hear the context of the Calvinist debate to you ant credence.

[@dave-ng4sr]

I’m sure the student had a greater Biblical knowledge than the staff

[@rachelhood7832]

These three women are stunning. I am so grateful for their insights, courage, and humility.

[@JulieMeyerMinistries]

Thank you Rachel = We are so so thankful for you and Allan and for your amazing son, Samuel who stood up for Jane Doe from the beginning

[@ElizabethZionHerder]

I agree! So proud of them!

[@JulieMeyerMinistries]

@@ElizabethZionHerder we love you both and Elizabeth. You took the early hits and the false narrative that was circling about you. Thank you that you just kept standing all through the tears the weeping, the heartache you gave voice so that we could give voice and this mama is not going to shut up. I did that way too long Thank u for standing with our brave Jane Doe. She found her voice and now she has made way for many others to find theirs. Our brave Jane Doe, Tammy Woods, TH and Cindy Clemishire. You are all hero's.

[@laurie9993]

Yes thank you Rachael & Allen Hood for exposing sin early/taking a hit. MB deferred judgement but thankful that voices and healings are finally happening ❤. For larger ihopkc community too 💕 !

[@lindadelea9494]

Julie, I loved your music for a long time. You are wonderfully gifted. In 2017 the Lord woke me up to all of the Charismatic deception by finding out that "Jesus Calling" roots were by automatic writing exposed by a sweet minister Warren B Smith. I threw all the deceptive Word of Faith and IHOPKC literature out I had learned since 1983. It has been 7 years now and I have been enjoying life as I should have 40 something years ago. Thank you for your honesty. You have contributed to my sanity as I listened to your truth. I too was sucked into the whole business of this NAR business but now I am so free as I should be following after my Savior, Jesus. I have been researching this whole deceptive teaching and it goes back to Plato...haha....

[@MikeFromKansas]

God bless the hosts for letting these women talk at length about their experiences. They asked good questions and got out of the way. It takes real humility and discipline to do that. Thanks, men.

[@debrajohnson545]

Thank all three of you for being honest. Prayers for you all, God knows our hearts.

[@pnastalder]

We moved to KC in 2009 to be a part of IHOP. After 6 years we had had enough. To much to speak in a chat box… we moved a whole state away 6 years after being there, but our daughter went back to KC to live within the friends and ministry of IHOP after we moved away. She took her own life after being there for one year! We have met MANY that lost their kids after living there and being a part of the ministry/church… This is bigger than just those that were “on staff!!” THIS HAS BEEN HEAVY.

[@lightningbug276]

I’m so sorry 😢

[@nancymarco5759]

Oh 😢🙏🙏🙏

[@TheWayWalker]

So sorry for your loss 😔

[@ekchris8]

I am so very sorry - may the Lord himself give you consolation 😢

[@jennifercraft1296]

I'm so very sorry.

[@paulrussell3504]

I so appreciate the candid responses to all of your questions at remnant radio. These women are so articulate in their handling and processing of their experiences that it’s been most helpful to your audience. God bless you all!

[@AntwanRSmith]

These things are definitely spiritual abuse. Unfortunately, I spent too much time at a church like that. I didn't wholly conform, so I had an even worse time at a particular church. May God’s grace be upon anyone affected by spiritual abuse.

[@KorynneFeliu-de2xi]

I was one of the ones who was resisting the requirement to go to EGS. It was incredibly challenging to make it work as a mom of toddlers at the time. My day started at 8:30 in internships and my littles would be going all day. The all the way to midnight thing, (my team was 10pm) I was just never, ever going to agree to. It felt like I was trying to force my babies to run an iron man triathalon on Fridays and they just needed mama to be present and a meal that wasn’t in the car between meetings.

[@shiningstardoodles]

So so sorry. I’m so glad you stood up for what you knew was right as a mama.

[@NFTeve]

Sleep deprivation is classic cult technique

[@AntwanRSmith]

Yes, it will take some time. Don't be afraid to get professional counseling and talk to other pastors who lead biblically and healthily. May God's grace be with you all!

[@justmorenoise]

Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. I hope Holy Spirit continues teaching and guiding his church.

[@ryanwilliamsonjesusisking2691]

Its just crazy that a year ago i was watching all the prophetic stories from the interviews you posted with Sam and Mike. I had red flags listening to those stories but felt that since yall were promoting those testimonies, that it put my own guard down to have a responsibility to diecern. Thank you for your attempts to turn this all around.

[@deborahcatalano261]

I had never heard of the prophecies until a year ago. So relieved they sought to understand the history of this move and the aftermath.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Yes, we regret having promoted those videos and apologize. We have taken them down, as we will not promote sinful behavior.

[@cestmoi5687]

​@@TheRemnantRadioThank you for being open about it and taking steps to rectify it. Much appreciated.

[@paulv.6040]

"Can we not do mercy? it's 8am!" That's hilarious.

[@denalowry8710]

1:26:29 Thanks Julie Meyers for transparency also to Joanna and Rachel for honesty

[@lynnreed829]

This is such a privilege to hear you marvelous women tell your stories. My wife and I were there 2008-2018, after visiting regularly from 2000-2007. It is so helpful to hear your more insider info. We never made it into the inner circle there, likely because we were older and less subject to the manipulation, but I can really relate to the feeling of wanting to be part of something big. I grieve that pride in me, that kind of ambition, and I just really appreciate your sharing your stories. Thank you.

[@pennymchugh3146]

Being blindsided can certainly feel like a betrayal. Time is short, and we ought to have our eyes wide open.

[@erinkellyherner]

Wow. Yeah, all the comments about the prophetic history and having your heart swept up in to all the grandiose promises of all these radical things in contrast to the prospect of just living a normal mundane life in a normal mundane church was absolutely what drew me in to IHOP. I used to say 'I want to be a Forerunner like John the Baptist and Lou Engle' I think back now on all the ridiculous things I just believed without questioning, because they were 'prophetic'. Makes me cringe now.

[@yeshuaiscomin]

This was so good. Thank you ladies! Great job communicating these dynamics through your stories.

[@Brak0777]

Charisma being promoted over character. Perfect description of the problems with charismatic churches.

[@jasonb9152]

Oh, don’t worry there’s plenty of problems in other churches too, including Baptist and many others… using the word to manipulate and many charismatic personalities in those denominations as well

[@ginaannbennett7149]

Rest. Receive. Relax and find joy in that old time religion I tell myself these days. Thank you for holding up Jesus!

[@FireflowerDancer]

Thanks Remnant Radio for this ❤❤❤ I'm watching and kind of hanging on to every word. These ladies are speaking the truths that I want to shout, but have learned that shouting and making demands aren't the way to bring change, but rather calmly talking and being vulnerable, as a community. I used to be heavily involved in IHOP and Life church but as it got more and more weird, I had to accept something was off and I needed to leave, as most of my friends had, earlier in the scene.

[@Healthy.Whole.Dauntless]

It's saddens me that Mike Bickle didn't allow for dialog behind the scenes when I personally heard him say that he welcomed dialog. So sad. Personally, I have been shocked at what has come out about the sexual abuse. I never would have believed it being on staff for 8 1/2 years. Never saw it in Bickle. But, I knew who Jane Doe 1 was, and I knew she wouldn't make that up. I appreciate hearing these women's experiences. Two were on staff the same time I was. Loved their worship sets.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Thank you for sharing

[@amandabowers9396]

They always "welcome dialog," right up until they realize that you think too critically and don't buy the message that they're trying to push on you.

[@wayneboyer7648]

I agree with Amanda. In 2004 I was taken in by the lust for cutting edge, and Mike was slick about making people think he was teachable. He very much said he was REQUSTING for constructive criticism and questions that helped him see more clearly, but the fruit in retrospective WAS NOT THAT AT ALL. Truth: he is a slick salesman for fake spirituality. He is selling people the chance to be great, to be part of a movement that SOMEHOW God himself needs THEM! [ not the reverse] God will move in grace, His gift to give: we do not earn the right to be part of the cutting edge. We are only asked to be obedient, and to love Him.

[@carynmason3421]

Really appreciate these ladies, their transparency, their love for the Lord. Thank you for these conversations.

[@ivanasimic2072]

Double gaslighting - first they gaslight you to think you are the crazy one, then you gislight yourself by guilt, shame, condemnation they are puting into your soul ...horrible experience

[@FireflowerDancer]

It's DARVO

[@ivanasimic2072]

@@FireflowerDancer yes

[@his.presence55]

Thank you so very much. Father in the name of Jesus would you close IHOPKC down. It ruined my family. We will never be the same. Yet Father, we will stand.

[@AmericanDreamAlbum]

Great job ladies. Joanna when meeting Bob Jones translated: "Who is this wacky podunk hillbilly that we've built the entire ministry on" haha

[@JoannaMaymusings]

You are not wrong.

[@rumekpadamrophe912]

That's why he was different. He wasn't spectacular nor did he looked impressive. He was just a "hillbilly" who got radically saved and used to bring many into their calling. Never wrote a book, didn't exalt himself. Taught a simple message: "Learn to love." Sure, he had his mistakes, but God used him as he used other broken men before him. It's not the job of the prophet to tell the apostle of the house what to do with the word he sees. God has a dream for IHOP; unfortunately, broken men messed it up. Julie herself testified in this video that she saw the words he gave come to pass. Speak with caution and humility. Let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he falls.

[@JoannaMaymusings]

@rumekpadamrophe912 …sexually abused a mother and daughter…

[@AmericanDreamAlbum]

@@rumekpadamrophe912 That all sounded cool. But what was terrible was when Bob Jones had two women come in to his office and STRIP NAKED before him in order to receive a word from God. Bob also was OFF on many words too. We must be careful not to follow false prophets. Lest we be led in to deception.

[@leannapayne4570]

This was so good! Thank you ladies for sharing.

[@kerstinhaack9600]

"Just to live a normal Christian life"... that resonates so strongly with all of us who are reeling from this crisis and currently coming out of ihop! A mundane Christian life is such a privilege.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Praying for comfort you!

[@ivanasimic2072]

This is what my mother always is saying to me: just live a normal life , simple as that

[@ProphecyisPattern-zt7tn]

"Trust" is not the issue: Discernment is the issue. If you cannot discern the light from the dark, you can't trust anyone. And that is not bad. It protects you from trusting evil. Discern, then trust the light and call the dark what it is.

[@anneboyle2240]

Hello, I've screenshot what you said if that's okay? I'm here with my notebook and the Lord, just come out of a cult church, after cult church, a load of them 😢 but the Holy Spirit has been leading me all the way through, to expose my sin and darkness and the churches. All rotten to the core, including me. I'm being sanctified now and discipled by Jesus and am finally dying to self so I can follow Him. This is brilliant what you've written and the truth. God bless and keep you

[@ProphecyisPattern-zt7tn]

@@anneboyle2240 Sure, it is ok. Be safe in God's counsel.

[@missybrenner478]

Such a healthy dialogue. Thank you for taking the time to let these people speak and help the Body process. I LOVED Rachel’s comment…what is if this process of exposure, (not just of people, but flawed systems), truth telling, pain, healing and returning to foundational TRUTHS of the Word and character of Jesus, centrality of the Cross, accountability, etc IS part of the beginnings of revival!?!?! Come Lord, have Your way in us.

[@RDH061666]

from 2016 to 2020 I served under a local pastor in small church Oklahoma. 4 years of life and serving which turned out to be manipulation. Around year 4 I was becoming more disagreeable or challenging as a leader, I remember making a comment 'we don't use people' and the pastor said "Why not". He was concerned with people that we had in common (smaller community). I realized along the way his concern was that he would be found out for his ethical/ financial misappropriations . He did not want me speaking with those that had left 'HIS' church. In the end I was told meeting with you and your wife is not beneficial. 3 days later he was asking if I would come out and cook briskets for his daughters wedding. There are many more similar incidents of gaslighting and manipulation. I actually said to him once, this 'feels like manipulation' and it did not go over well. This outlines the importance of knowing Gods word and HIS character and not blindly following and Man or a movement. It would be nice if we could trust those in leadership but if the layers of boundaries and accountability are not in place run away.

[@annlowry9841]

So I am type 1 diabetic and I was on a ministry "trip" with a group that was affiliated with IHOP. We had this training where we were taught that we do whatever our leaders say without any questions ever. So we were walking pretty far and I became EXTREMELY hypoglycemic. My blood sugar dropped to 26 (which is life threatening) and the leader would not stop to let me eat something and I have no idea what would have happened if one of the girls (we were in our early 20s) fathers hadn't been there. I cannot remember why he was there but he stopped and helped me. I was then punished later on for something else and I think they got mad at me for that (I had gone to the bathroom in the middle of the night wearing a tank top and we were not allowed to wear tank tops) because they were mad at me for the low blood sugar event.

[@bennettnewman8479]

Really interested to hear more about the weight of abuse from some of the other faces of IHOP as opposed to just Bickle.

[@frashrah]

I got stories about Kirk Bennett

[@jfabian1912]

​@frashrah would not surprise me if he abused/manipulated others as well

[@mhimnotthebee]

That’s the problem is putting any human as authority over you. God is our one and only authority!

[@dusankakandija7423]

exactly! JESUS is the leader, we are ALL HIS servants

[@Lmowell1]

Thank you for this podcast.. This was very eye opening…

[@lynnhuber6120]

Thank you for all of you sharing. We probably went to IHOP 4 different times 07 to '12. It was the high standard n example. But truth is truth. God is with us all as we continue on. Blessings from South Dakota

[@debastosj]

Thank you for this program, it was the most useful and enlightening about this scandal. I believe that the frontality and honesty with which the subject was discussed by all those involved can help many people (myself included) who, to a greater or lesser degree and in other scenarios, were confused, hurt or feel guilty, to better understand what and how it happened and walk a path of grace and recovery with God.

[@kishidabu]

One of the questions I have now is to what extent are the other houses of prayer that were birthed out of KC are still perpetuating the IHOP disfunction?

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Good question. Not sure at this point.

[@michaelmiller5024]

I'm only acquainted with three of them but I'd say all three are abusive sadly. I think the "prophetic history" and the "vision" enable narcissistic leaders to be in power, stay in power, and misuse their power.

[@JoannaMaymusings]

Hard questions need to be asked. I am not confident at all that they have even begun to do the hard work of detangling from the "Prophetic History." Also, the adjacent issues with Revivalism, "Mandate"-culture, youth movements, anything requiring 24/7 in one geographical location is a significant red flag for me at this time. The mechanisms of coercion, hierarchical power, transcendency of personal "prophetic" encounters to drive vision, all deeply problematic and endemic to the "Prayer Movement" at least in the West.

[@FireflowerDancer]

​@@JoannaMaymusingsI think it's safe to say they have become militant. It's sad. HOP opened up ways of communing with the Lord corporately and privately in ways that I had not previously encountered in a church environment. But I had issues from the beginning with them, sadly, and eventually had to leave. Maybe they were too idealistic.

[@natalieohlsson7777]

A future of honor should be towards EVERY HUMAN BEING. That’s what it’s all about.

[@TBird5790]

What are you talking about? What scriptures are you referencing? Thanks.

[@aylerayler]

The manipulation of pure hearted people at ihop was so cruel. So many were out for authority andnpoer over others, and so many literally just wanted to serve God. So disgusting

[@carrieromo1971]

I commend y’all for doing this interview . For shining a light on many shared experiences that I myself wrestled was it me just seeing things with a wrong heart and I came to find out this is very important and essential to Jesus teachings. Learning to discern and spot mistruths has brought a lot of healing to me and renewed my love for the Lord and his truth . I have many friends who attend a church I was a part of that fall into so many similarities in this discussion and many others y’all have done. It’s helped give me language when trying to speak to them to at least be aware of possible deception. The biggest block for me is always the fear of being labeled or precieved a gossiper and bitter . It’s a like a knife to the heart when I just want them to start thinking for themselves and be free like I have felt. But I also try to remember that when your in it it’s so hard to see especially if you benefit from the system in some way. This church has a pastor who has been highly influenced by leaders ihop, bethel , etc. some of the pastors and elders are inexperienced and “honor” the senior leader so it’s bound to not be balanced. The senior pastor has this tag line “ that he didn’t build the church around himself “ BUT it can’t be ignored that his influence is very heavy on tne people making the main decisions. My hope is that with all the scandal that is breaking out it will force churches to reform their policies and rethink their “values”. Like the Pharisees they have a hard time looking at what they have put in my place as it possibly hurting people. They have convinced themselves that God himself told them so any opposition is evil. It’s hard to reason with the delusions at times.

[@rethinkingjesus]

Thank you Remnant radio , Julie, Rachael, and Joanna for sharing your experiences. I enjoyed seeing you Julie as my wife and I were there from 1983 through the prophetic history and we loved you and Walt and your music. All three of you were so articulate in explaining the spiritual abuse and even though you are going through such inner turmoil you showed no bittenness. Many live under spiritual abuse today but are unaware of it and your stories will help others see it by shining light on it. I was never on staff or leadership but had great experiences and I think in the end all that is being exposed by the light will work together for the good. Although the holes and manipulation of the prophetic history are becoming known I still believe God is going to change the understanding and expression of Christianity in one generation. I believe Mike's empire served a purpose but it had to be brought down by Jesus Himself. Can you imagine a mess the world would be if a worldwide revival broke out and everyone became clones of the IHOP System? I don't think that would be anything like the Kingdom of Heaven we are suppose to be bringing to earth will look like. Blessings to all of you as you navigate your inner world of thoughts, beliefs, and emotions through this season.

[@MauraWhite]

I can't keep nodding my head yes. I didn't attend IHOP, but I am a former member of a church who followed IHOP and used the exact same playbook.

[@frenchiemama6527]

Let’s be really honest here: It is not that you didn’t “see” anything. It was that you all were complicit. Saying that you didn’t see anything or have any reservations absolves you all of the guilt that you feel and the responsibility that you had to actually hold someone you knew was being abusive accountable. There is nothing really to say other than “I’m sorry” without any strings attached or your own manipulative spin to it. My sister got sucked up into this cult after we had gotten out of another one that abused us. My dad loves to say “I don’t remember or recall that but I’m sorry if I hurt you.” Apologies and discussion only mean something when people are introspective and have enough insight to offer a true apology void of anything other than how sorry you are and how wrong it was.

[@wmr4463]

So helpful to hear all this. Thank you ladies for sharing your experiences and wisdom. It was so jarring to go thru this even for me who was a distant follower of the teaching and music and “prophecy”. Thank you Lord for exposing it and I pray that we all are more wise and discerning going forward. I am in my 60’s and felt so naive. I’m still angry at him and his charade was downright creepy.

[@TheStemo1]

I had only visited IHOP and loved the ministry from afar. The awakening that hit in 2009, the power in the worship, etc. were all real fruit of the movement. I think a lot of people that weren't directly involved only saw these types of things and our impressions were that it was only good stuff. In times I visited, I would come across an elitist spirit and I felt like I was looked down upon, and I think part of that came from how IHOP made people feel like they were part of what God was 'really doing' and the 'more important' things on God's agenda. She said at around 19:10 that you 'feel' like something is wrong and I think when we only look for 'false doctrine' or something that feels concrete, we disregard that light feeling of 'something is off.'

[@marycarter4244]

I was there from 85-94. I believe Bob Jones did warn Mike. Once Bob told me that not everyone liked to get a word from him. I asked why and Bob said because he could see their sin. Mike taught over and over about David being a man after God’s heart even though he had murdered and committed adultery. In our minds Mike was a man after God’s heart, too. He wrote a book and everything. We were programmed to never question him. I questioned him to the Lord. Why did Mike allow all these things to happen in his church? Why did he allow John Paul Jackson to silence the women by telling all of us to beware of women with Jezebel spirits. There was such abuse and I took it. We were never allowed to question Mike and always programmed to defend him. I caught myself defending him just 6 months ago. Lord help us all. 3 years ago I made my complaint to the Lord. Why was He allowing Mike to continue to preach this false holiness. Is not the cross enough? Thank you, Julie for sharing. You have spoken my heart and it really helped.

[@TheRevering]

Wasn't Bob a homosexual?

[@hawkonamountain5196]

​@TheRevering that was Paul Cain

[@JoannaMaymusings]

It is my opinion that the adjacent groups that remain should detangle from Bob Jones as well. Bob Jones perpetrated clergy sexual abuse against a mother and minor daughter that was broadly known - and in my opinion should have biblically been retired from any public ministry or influential leadership. There were other family and mental health issues as well that should have been major red flags to anyone walking alongside him. The rot goes upstream from Mike Bickle to Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Augustin Alcala to William Branham, and downstream to the middle-management IHOP-KC leadership we saw absolutely fumble the ball on transparency and accountability in this exposure as well as their own complicit spiritually abusive practices.

[@TheRevering]

@@hawkonamountain5196 Oh that's right, thank you!

[@DarylWood-bi7hb]

Mary, I believe you are right on point. I was there, as well, in the 80's (83-89). Bob Jones very likely was beginning to see some things that were deeply threatening to Mike. I, for one, was having a number of serious, exposing dreams in the latter half of my time there. They were detailed, and many of these involved witchcraft. I pressed Mike, and he agreed to meet with me, so I could share these things with him. But, he dodged me for seven months. Eventually, I talked to Noel Alexander and he took my concerns seriously. However, it became clear to me that it was time for me and my family to leave the church, so we did.

[@ryanp8159]

Crazy to not hear the pejorative "religious spirit" thrown around. That said, mad props to everyone who participated in this.

[@paulv.6040]

1:06:38 "The house of prayer was God's idea, but broken men got a hold of it." Julie Meyer.

[@ExtremeCamps]

Amen

[@newcomb5]

Can you explain your accolades of Mike Bickle shared in the series with Sam Storm? In this video, you so clearly point out so many problems that existed in Bickle’s ministry. Seems like a big uturn in discernment.

[@ericlynn940]

Corrrrrect!

[@deborahcatalano261]

They did a video on that.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Unfortunately, the evidence speaks for itself, and we changed our minds as soon as the evidence was presented. This episode is our third one on the topic. The first one was released in November 2023, shortly after the news broke. Here is a more indepth episode you may want to watch: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6HGkoOdpqiUfdE

[@JBly4]

​@@TheRemnantRadioYou were presented with evidence every single one of the 14 episodes you were lauding Mike Bickle and IHOP. You ignored them and even fought against those stating them until you couldn't anymore. That is what needs to be repented of. Your discernment is zero. You guys have none and yet have many videos teaching others to use it. It's a shame and what needs to be truly repented of. Not just deleting videos (or evidence).

[@hldvdsn100]

I so appreciate how you are honoring these women to get their voices back to share their experiences. So much of what they say is so EXTREMELY telling of the fact that there are MAJOR “cult vibes” that have been going on at IHOPKC all this time. Just wow. I am VERY thankful for this exposure and eyes opening and people getting the opportunity to tell the truth about all the control and manipulation…let’s just call it what it is, it’s witchcraft period. Thank you, guys, for giving the microphone to these courageous women to empower their voices that had been so shut down for too long. Thank you!

[@paulv.6040]

35:27 to 43:22 There's is something on what Julie is saying here. it is powerful, and it is moving me to tears.

[@deborahthorp758]

Study your Bible and remember Jesus only was harsh with those who oppressed the people of God,and came to destroy the works of the devil, transparency is everything,

[@RJ-vq1iv]

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 says, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need

[@kenroc546]

Yall are having a prophetic conference??? Why not have a sackcloth and ashes conference for promoting MB and defending him. The charismatics idolize the "anointing" to point that illmoral, sinful men and women will be praised and obeyed regardless of doctrine and behavior. Aaaand you guys preach that critizing these wolves will make God go against you, "do not touch the Lords anoited", so, yall need to repent of this idol worship and turn to Christ, thee the Anoited One. Cuz yall aint right before God.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Actually, we say the opposite. Honor culture is wrong. Here is an episode addressing that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYXGmJ2qq8hsZ6c As charismatics ourselves, we are taking a stand against such abuses and toxic environments. That doesn't mean we throw out what the Bible actually says about spiritual gifts. The Bible teaches us to how operate in the gifts that is orderly and edifies the church. We must adhere to what the Bible says.

[@ivanasimic2072]

Amen !!!

[@Happydealhappyday]

I wish so much I couldn't relate - I went to a small church in upstate NY who worshipped IHOP and had its own scandals before Mike's were exposed. I just kept nodding my head yes as I listened to this. We really can ONLY trust in Jesus. Our hindsight is 20/20 for all the red flags we should have seen years ago - but at least we see them now and can save the next generation from enduring the same abuse. I just keep focusing on my kids and how I get them out in enough time so that their relationship with God wouldn't be ruined.

[@dzpwnfkaa]

was Dave Sliker apart of that church? wasnt he in leicester, NY as a youth pastor?

[@kishidabu]

When I was recovering from my own experience with spiritual abuse in an unrelated ministry, I asked the Lord what do you want to say about all of this? Immediately a scripture reference came to mind that I was unfamiliar with. So I read Jeremiah 23 and saw God's true heart about bad shepherds and about the abused sheep: 'Jeremiah 23. 1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. 2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD. It was a sober moment for me but also encouraging that God saw what went on and He wasn't OK with it and He was going to make things right.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Amen. Thanks for sharing.

[@FireflowerDancer]

​@@TheRemnantRadioHey, you guys are mentioned in this verse- 'the remnant.' Cool 😎

[@triquepersonalwork6369]

I am so sad about the sin at IHOP and equally sad about the condemnation that the church has put on the leaders there. Christians need to look inward at their own sin and get their life in order and realize that we are all on a journey of becoming better people in the Lord. Then we can realize we are all on the same boat and can give other Christian’s grace also.

[@ericlynn940]

There is some irony here. The theological beliefs between the hosts of this show (and nearly all "evangelical christians") and IHOP/MB are actually razor thin. MB existed as he did because thousands of people (who decided to also raise their kids in the culture. ugh.) sat and listened to him and supported him. Many of which, had no issue being on his payroll and or building their own "ministry" or having MB and his buddies on this show and shows like it. The "christians" crave a good prophecy (to include everyone on this episode/show). MB served them up on a platter and the audience (to include adults) sat there eating up. And, still do. The younger ones who attended IHOP/MB have a real claim to being victimized (and are victims) and being confused and deserve to be heard. However, the adults that moved their families to IHOP/MB and made a decision, as an adult(s) to be there, really are a large part of the problem. Most have moved on to other "churches/ministries", but sadly still believe in the exact same things MB does - they learned nothing. When a man stands on a stage and confidently claims things that are just stupid, looking at a book (the bible) to figure out if he is crazy or not, will not lead you anywhere. For everyone but "christians," it is easy to tell when people are just plain crazy.

[@su....]

it seems that if more dads and moms, grandmas and grandpas, simply pastored their own households more instead of handing over the spiritual life of their families to paid platformers and pulpiteers, we'd all be a heaven of lot better off

[@BrendaBoykin-qz5dj]

Thank you,Ladies and Gentlemen 🌹⭐🌹

[@wendycollins765]

Brave hearts know, other people have gone through this in smaller churches ⛪️

[@anneboyle2240]

Yes, a few of them and two big ones - I've been in cult after cult 😢

[@joshockey7447]

These ladies are awesome! They are very sincere and earnest to honor the truth.

[@jeffbarrett411]

Josh great monologue at 49mins about Rest and ushering in the second coming etc. Well done bro. We do work for God, reading the Word and prayer which is labouring to enter His rest, and diligently seeking Him, it is the light yoke: BUT: all these extra things at IHOP is abuse. I agree.

[@glenmanley7023]

30 minutes in and still nothing about Pancakes, misleading...

[@anndesir]

LOL. Ihop stands for international house of prayer.

[@cassieburchell3233]

😂😂

[@anneyoung2310]

It would be amazing if the body of Christ would not tolerate abuse of power and financials, not just sexual abuse. I hope we are getting closer.

[@daniellove162]

In general pastors need to QUIT COLLECTING FOLLOWERS and look to invest HEAVILY in discipleship. Collecting followers is just a collection of power which causes MOST trouble in the body of Christ. To change the focus to discipleship will certainly mean far smaller congregations and perhaps most ministers will have to get jobs. That’s ok though, discipleship often challenges the disciple to share in the ministry lift where as followers tend to be more passive in their Christian experience. This concept needs to be talked about more often.

[@JamesKeith-k2o]

This reply tells the very problem with most of the mega churches. People are going to church , making a decision to serve God and are turned out to the wolves. Pastors should treat their flick the same way Christ treated His disciples.

[@su....]

and perhaps 'allow' (encourage/teach/model for) the moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas to pastor their own households and families much more?

[@daniellove162]

@@su.... - yes, the church STARTS as a hospital then through discipleship it becomes a gym. You get fixed THEN you become fit by doing the work of ministry, small at first THEN big. If you discipleship people they should be able to share an insight that God has given them in the word within a year of discipleship.

[@FireflowerDancer]

This is exactly what I have observed in evangelicalism and I long for actual discipleship and to be more than a seat warmer in a pew. I don't know how God is working in it right now, but I do know I am not alone in the struggle. Thanks for saying these things guys ❤

[@EmilyLMcArthur]

I'm a non Christian viewer, feel its worth mentioning. I hear these women blaming themselves. It wasnt your fault. I recommend they seek help from people with experience in cults. Because that's very much what it sounds like, cultic beliefs

[@ngoziekwueme]

Please where's part 2??? 🙏

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Here you go! kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKHSaaqAoNJgY6s

[@ngoziekwueme]

@@TheRemnantRadio Thanks lots and greatly appreciated 🙏

[@bradhightower564]

WOW the testimony from 23:00-28:00 is really helpful. thanks

[@aylerayler]

"When youre in that culture it's really hard to recognize that what you're going through is abuse or not" and everything is gossip, definitely screwed me over socially for years.

[@nildameers3772]

Conformity is not unity within the body of Christ.

[@brittlaroche3080]

What is harp and bowl?

[@jimmyblackkeys]

prayer and worship together, with the name coming from Revelation 5:8

[@JoannaMaymusings]

Specifically,. the "harp and bowl model" is a worship & prayer administrative format that Mike Bickle designed with very prescriptive rigidity on how to lead worship in the IHOP prayer room. It involved a "cycle" of worship songs, "singing in the spirit" (where everyone on stage and the crown would sing different spontaneous phrases at the same time - multiple voices), a prayer leader praying in spoken word a brief snippet of a prayer followed by individuals singers "antiphonalizing" - spontaneously singing excerpts from the Bible or those prayer-leader phrases then a "chorus leader" repeating a simple singable spontaneous chorus repeatedly. At various times, the enforcement of "the model" because so rigid as to have specific time durations for each step, and "not doing the model right" was something that worship leaders or singers could be disciplined for - it just kind of depended how dogmatic they were being at the time.

[@ExtremeCamps]

@@JoannaMaymusingsI’m glad that hadn’t been the case for a long time. Though the basic format is there- it’s beautiful- it’s not that harsh or rigid as you make it sound- maybe back then?

[@Rocko1II]

Paul taught people to consider not being married rather to commit themselves as good soldiers to Christs imminent return...now a days would that be considered abuse? If some one took that advice and later regretted it? To be clear Paul encouraged people to be good boreans but it could be argued some impressionable people that may have happened? We see even Paul encouraged people to do what he was doing? When maybe that wasn't appropriate for everyone? Would people have thought that they were less than for not choosing to live that way? I think we can't get to a place where we are afraid to cast vision or have opinions as leaders? While encouraging being a borean...but maybe some people are called to a mission for life and others for a tour...we kinda think of military people that keep renewing through a war as a little more comiited than those that opt to do one tour and leave and start a family right? In every war people have direct orders to hold this bridge, ride this boat, fly this plane, many people invaded Normandy, others parachute behind the lines, ithers be spies in France ... We see people argue over their own ordersas the only orders. Most people aren't in central command. Doesn't mean their orders are wrong and every branch of the military thinks they are better than the others.

[@Alexandracockroft]

Incredible vulnerable women. This breaks my heart! Many similarities to my experience working for life church.

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Sorry to hear this

[@yIsThisMyName]

This is so vague that it's hard to understand what went sideways. How did they manipulate and control people. Specifics, please.

[@ExtremeCamps]

That’s a good question. One person represents an entire ministry and maybe no one knew about it? Or maybe that persons long gone and things have changed since 15 years ago- imagine that. Much is left out.

[@1984SheepDog]

The fish rots at the head....and in this case the head is a pedo false prophet who knows the Bible and has great charisma

[@TheFreedomDefender]

People keep saying that there were no warnings etc. What of Ernie Gruen, and Derek Prince, and other leaders back then that were warning the church?

[@rachelhood7832]

So good Rachael!

[@sunsetstormx]

Where is part 2? Maybe it's not published yet

[@Lmowell1]

Wow.. Rachel I love and am thankful for your story.. amazing…

[@matthewb252able]

After listening to the majority of this video I am sincerely not sure how these accusations account to abuse. These people are really grasping to make claims of abuse. Being told that someone did an excel sheet with the wrong font is not abuse. That is called managing the office work to have it done well. Or having an intern go purchase food for leaders is not abuse. Plus the fact that they were looking to raise up worship leaders and most likely had someone give designated funds to assist these worship leaders in training but they had required standards, this is not abuse. This video is a huge stretch and I feel like @Remnant Radio is lacking in discernment.

[@paultorrez4483]

You think? I think you’re right for different reasons: they also promote men like Sam storms, Michael brown.. who are 1st class cult , snake oil salesmen and abuser enablers …

[@Randy777day]

I left a church after the beginnings of long-sought revival because the pastor decided at the last minute on his own (contrary to our elder's earlier decision) to have me (not an elder or deacon) to take charge of an all-night prayer meeting with BOTH sexes. BUT bringing sleeping bags and pillows and praying on the floor all night in close proximity to the opposite sex - that you are not married to - ' DEFINATELY has 'the appearance of evil' and is NOT OF GOD! So, I fled. BUT without hurt or offense. PLEASE NOTE. God called me to that church. God called me to leave that church. There is obvious manipulation, abuse, the law and shepherding here (and with my church). But sometimes God calls us to the less than perfect situations and churches to learn and grow. Christianity is not always pretty. Many are the casualties that not only give up on church, but on Christ. God can and will keep us. Like Pilgrim, we must continue on and follow His call. Not peer pressure. Not elitism. Not the Law. Not the most spiritually advantageous (at least, from our standpoint). When God says it's time to come out of the fiery furnace, we will not only be set free of what bound us, but even of the SMELL OF THE SMOKE!