Surviving a Toxic Church: Victims of IHOP Speak Out

[@shannonbradbury2138]

My husband and I were at IHOP 2001-2007. My husband was Full Time Staff & I towards the end of our time was prayer room staff. We had 4 little kids and we survived on barely any money. I had no idea that any of this was going on while we were apart of this ministry!! Or else we would have left IHOP ! I have struggled & been SHOCKED with hearing so much of the behind the scenes of what actually happened! Thank you so much for bringing all this to the light!!!I really appreciate you all inviting these ladies to speak the REAL truth! Although it’s hard to hear, it’s so necessary in our own healing process.

[@TheOutstandingYT]

Thank you sooo much for sharing your story! My husband and I shared an almost identical experience just in a much smaller church in Oklahoma from around 1995-2016. It’s crazy how much our experience matches this. It is major manipulation.

[@shannonbradbury2138]

It’s heartbreaking to hear that this is happening in so many churches. Prayers for you as you heal.

[@Carnivorecatherine]

I was in consecutive different churches where these scenarios happened to me repeatedly. Newly on the worship team, then suddenly, with no explanation, off. Second guessing my own motives & rending my own heart repeatedly. Healing some, then hurting again. Getting hurt again. Trying to communicate with leadership & having it turned on me alone. “You have Daddy issues.” said by my pastor in response to me coming to do the difficult task of airing out what’s really going on. Bc this has happened in many ministries I’ve been in, I don’t attend church anymore. I know it’s Biblical to be in fellowship & I keep my real Christian friends who I trust in my circle & give them encouragement too. I’ve had to re-navigate how to pray, worship, & relate to others transparently. I so often felt & still feel, guilty. I am healing listening to you today! In prayer today, before listening I was just sharing how thankful I am to God for what He’s done & is doing. I’m launching out in a new business & seeing new relationships develop in my life that are enriching & encouraging me in my strengths & creative endeavors that were given by God to use to encourage others too! I felt something break open my hard heart. Softening & melting it. Then I listened to this right after. I’ve grieved over this for years. No one has said anything to me to ask what happened. Sometimes I’ve felt invisible in the world, & more importantly, in the body of Christ. Even invisible to God! I am coming back to the truth that I am seen & heard by God.

[@pam6243]

Thank you for sharing this. I can completely relate. I've been out of church for years also.

[@lavieenrose5954]

God bless you sister ❤

[@TheMeddaJune]

💓💔💓 This resonates strongly with me. Of course, I don't share your exact history, but the way you've had to navigate the harmful dysfunction you were exposed to is so relatable. I never stopped loving God or the church, but there is a stigma on those who've had to set such boundaries with the general institutions (I won't say it's necessarily the true Body; God will reveal in his timing). In my case, it has been a relief and joy that He has given back to us some of our formerly scattered community. This gives me real hope for the corporate Church to which it seems you and I both belong. I pray that he glorifies his Name by establishing his Bride in truth, love, and godly fear, which is the beginning of real wisdom ❤ Shalom, friend.

[@maryestes9584]

@@Carnivorecatherine 50 years ago, the same thing happened to me and my family. We met with the Pastor and his wife to talk about our disturbing experiences in church (Many were very similar as the ones described by the women in this podcast.) Why are all of our experiences the same? 50 years apart and in a different town and a different church. I agree it’s systemic..During the meeting we were met with Indignant denial. After the meeting we left the church. We were labeled as heretics and and in rebellion. People were told to stay away from us. And they did. Within 6 months it was exposed that the Pastor had been preying on and having sex with multiple women in the church. We’re we vindicated? No. No one ever came and apologized. We were never Restored. We didn’t get any counseling. We didn’t get to go on a sabbatical at an undisclosed location all expenses paid. We didn’t get to take off work and “Seek the Lord”. We didn’t get offered a position in another church in a “Better part of the Country”. We didn’t get to move up and move on and prosper on the Payroll. We were left in our home town isolated and alone. With no where to go and no one we could go to for help. These pastors and these systems stick together… the roots and the tentacles ore far reaching. 50 years later and now it’s all covered over and labeled as “His Ministry Failure”. We are still not allowed to speak of it as it would be gossip, slander, unforgivness and God Forbid, BITTERNESS on our part. His faithful followers continued on in the church he left behind. They now hold all the positions he and his wife and family did. The legacy continues. The paid vacations, travel, salaries, connections within the body have grown and prospered. Meanwhile many are left outside the camp. Forgotten. Is IHOPKC Special? Unfortunately NO….How can these women’s Stories match so close to yours and mine and thousands of others? Is Mike Bickle some gifted genius able to Trick Thousands of people into blindly following him? Did he Mastermind this all by himself! NO! He’s had a lot of help… He’s a garden variety Narcissist drawn to the same Man Made Machine by his desire to be famous and have power over people. These churches are not churches. Until this is dealt with, there will continue to be thousands of wounded and destroyed Christian’s left to wander by themselves. I wish someone would go after the Lost Sheep.

[@NarnianLady]

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Totally understand why you or anyone doesn't want to attend church anymore. We are the Church, menbers of the Body , but it can be so diffocult to find genuine,loving connection and fellowship.. and we get told 'no church is perfect..' It is NOT too much to expect to be treated lovingly and with integrity! Too many abusive leaders in my life as well, and I see them thriving, no matter how they took advantage of people's pain and sensitivity.. I do forgive my former pastors, but trust is another thing. Forgiveness does not equal trust. No church to go at the moment, as I don't want to be treated as invisible and an oddball again. May the Father if all comfort send real fellowship your way, and may He make Himself known to you deeply.

[@Happydance4joy]

This is setting me free. I feel like others understand and I’m not crazy.

[@pnastalder]

I agree!! The Prayer room is absolutely an Idol!! Thank you for speaking that truth!

[@Happydealhappyday]

I wish I wasn't nodding my head emphatically so much while watching this. I went to a small church that idolized Bethel, Morning Star and IHOP and it sounds like my former pastors took lessons from IHOP on how they both practiced their abuse. I too have cried so much in repentance that I was a part of believing that those who left were demons. I've also repented over and over for never asking questions of the people who left and why they left. We were given a story at the alter, and if you didn't believe it, then there was something wrong with you. And how could the good girl in me be ostrisized by my community and friends who I held so dear? I know I'm not alone. This verifies that once again. Listening to these stories of the exact same thing I lived through in a small church in western NY, helps me somehow know that I wasn't just an idiot that fell for it. I was an empathetic person who always wanted to do the right thing - until that "right thing" was abusing myself at the hand of the cult leader. I feel for you all - because your stories are our stories - and it happened all over the place. I truly believe that the next great awakening, is waking up to the abuse so that we can get back to worshipping the ONE AND ONLY true God, and not a system who claims to do that for us.

[@CorylSchuler-bb4ou]

Thank you all for being vulnerable and honest! Healing is a process and you have chosen to start it !

[@FJ-rh6io]

„I grieve about the lack of curiosity I had about the many people I saw walking out the door.“ That hits deep. I think she’s hitting on something so important with this, about the responsibility we all have as believers to have open eyes about what impact our churches and programs are having on other people, even if we’re not the ones in leadership. May the Lord heal that wound, if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive!

[@Jillousa]

I remember responding to an anna call during one of my visits to IHOP in early 2000's. Enjoyed my trips but didn't feel called to IHOP. I never got into the teachings since I felt like it would take hours for me to disect it to determine if I agreed. I'm thankful I moved and found a wonderful church that was healthy and had wonderful prayer meetings and outreach. We had a night watch from midnight to 3am. So thankful for where the Lord led me.

[@storytimewithyaz]

This is the most important conversation! Thank you for having it.

[@suechristy363]

The LORD is purifying His bride. It's painful to watch 😔 but so very necessary. May we all be wiser and more humble for what is happening all around us.

[@maryestes9584]

@@suechristy363 i If that’s true the Lord is sure taking his time. This has been going on for hundreds of years and so far the church hasn’t learned a thing. When this blows over Mike Bickle will pop up somewhere else all with the support of his worshippers and “Gods Blessing.”

[@billbraskey5407]

Unfortunately, most of the leaders in the Body are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They aren’t part of the bride, they are wounding the sheep and causing them to fall away. This is the fruit of apostasy not purification. For those who are His, it will ultimately be for their good. For those who aren’t His, it will be His judgement. How so many “Spirit-filled” people (including major leaders) totally lack discernment about these issues and individuals it is mind-boggling. This isn’t refinement but Him vomiting 🤮 people out of His mouth. More to come…

[@kotzting]

@@maryestes9584 If Mike crawls out from under a rock somewhere, I promise you, I will get involved.

[@maryestes9584]

@@kotzting I hope so. These types always have other pastors/faithful followers willing to set them up in ministry somewhere else.

[@miryamnae2164]

The bride is one rib…

[@DebraCossu]

You are speaking truth and truth DOES set us free. Thank you

[@c.stephanieberry8695]

It’s great to see you, Debra this is Stephanie. Jesus will sift this to the ground. We need to hang on though dumbfounding revelations coming, but we are not amazed by anyone but Jesus.

[@glauciaandrade542]

Speaking the truth ,this is a gossiping on the you tube ,rebellious heart .Trying to do justice with their one hand .Can you imagine them meeting the women they were sin ,they are the ones that throw their stones .Only the cross set us free.

[@MichelleM33810]

I know someone who went through the ihop school and fasted so much they developed gastrointestinal problems. They were encouraged to fast as much as possible and stay up all night in the prayer room. Meanwhile they had a job during the day. They lived at poverty level while they were there.

[@geneanuts]

😢🙏

[@lavieenrose5954]

Wow that’s terrible. God bless your friend ❤

[@experimentalbaker]

It is sad that personal discernment wasn’t cultivated. Pushing people to the point of hurting themselves is not of God.

[@maryestes9584]

@@experimentalbaker It’s sad that THESE STORIES are not investigated and restitution and restoration brought to all people destroyed by this place.

[@ivanasimic2072]

It is abuse

[@JulieMeyerMinistries]

Ladies - this is so good. You communicate so well and Jenn -you clearly spoke what worship leaders and worship teams felt continually .

[@betharnold2125]

This is heart wrenching. I don’t know what to say. You have learned a lot. We are all learning a lot.

[@jfabian1912]

Let this be a lesson learned for Remnant Radio and everyone else. Don't just believe anyone who says they have seen Jesus or and Angel, and they told them whatever. You need to spend time and get to know the person to see if there is true fruit in their lives and if there are any red flags. If you feel there are red flags, there probably are.

[@yankeegonesouth4973]

I really appreciate the bravery of these women. Thank you, sisters!

[@veldajean1]

So many compelling and important conversations taking place in this talk. Thank you to all. It was incredibly helpful to me and my husband. We have been discussing among ourselves how much of the systemic toxicity revealed here that went on at IHOP sort of transcends and can be seen in families, businesses, and ministries all over. We have our own personal story of coming out of a very toxic church almost 20 yrs ago and these conversations really illuminated and brought clarity to many of our own experiences that we dealt with.

[@bethelshiloh]

I don’t know any real believers who have not been wounded. 75 y.o. Saved 1971 (truly met Yeshua and it changed my life forever). 2010 left the building, my faith in tact but done with churchianity. It felt like some kind of high school social club. Superficial. All the real relationships I had had in almost 40 years in the building (and we had many) were made by just investing in relationships. Can barely remember (well maybe one) person I felt may have been a real pastor to us. I left desiring the real deal. That’s been about 14+ years ago. Foraged for fellowship for about 5 years then found a home-group. Now I would say I have more of the real deal. All I miss in Sunday morning churchianity is corporate worship (I was a worship leader for about 15 years and loved it). Seems Doug Perry in that area had been saying for a while things were not right at IHOP. I’m looking on from a distance so I don’t know enough about him either. There is a pruning going on. This is sad. Disgusting. But the Lord and the Body are real. So is Satan. I pray people survive and press in to the real deal.

[@rootboy60]

I'm also 74, I had powerful experience with Jesus in 1971, former Catholic, now unchurched, I focus on Jesus and my relationship with him. I've lived this drama more than once, I was declared "Absolom" once. Listening to this is familiar, I had to ask, where is the Love? Does the New Testament instruct us the set aside everything to build a ministry like this. If I wasn't a believer I would think the discussion maybe about a failing family business. I can say one pastor did years later come and apologize. I long for fellowship and love we once had in abundance. I already in the body of Christ, I don't want the join a cult, I not looking for someone to follow, nor do I seek any Dogma. I not a debater, I'm a follower of Jesus. Forgive and move on back to your first love. Seek to live in peace. Can't we keep it simple? Jesus loves you and let the Holy Spirit change their hearts and minds. To this church power abuse say, Not Ok.

[@nanyummyify]

💯 thanks for sharing your story!

[@cassie2910]

Thank you for sharing difficult truth that so many have experienced.

[@Beta_soy_chad]

Having watched this though now. It’s interesting that I see many of these behaviours in the large global financial institution that I work in. No surprise you get this when a church copies CEO models.

[@carlafranklin3081]

Thank you for this. This answers a lot of questions. Done with true humility and grace.

[@tisi88]

Thank you so much for talking about this again and again🙏🏻🤍 I am from Germany and part of an evangelical church and it shocks me, that they never once talked about this issue here... there are churches that are directly linked to the teaching of the prayer movement and it would be so very important to reflect apon possible abusive structures within the very DNA of their own tradition.

[@trudy6697]

Thank you for sharing. I was victim of the same abuse in my church. More than 30 yrs later, I am alone and unattached to any body of believers. Basically having to heal on my own with zero support. This is not a complaint, I'm so happy you have support from each other. The Love of my is always near to me and I love Him. Hearing your stories has given me strength and I learned something new that makes so much sense. You have and are doing the right thing in exposing this evil. The one thing I can express to you is that it will be a long and hard road, but our God is Great, He is calling you to take this road, and He will strengthen you. Blessings, brothers and sisters!

[@mchristr]

It’s essential that you find some faithful believers with whom you can do life. The blessing far outweighs the risk.

[@heatherbreaker6194]

It’s a blessing to be alone and set apart for Jesus

[@marybethbyers913]

These media stories hit hard. Thank you ladies for being so vulnerable.

[@carolynmarie0816]

Sheri was my mentor for a season at ihop. Thank you for sharing your testimonies and vulnerability. Thank you, ladies!

[@kimweincek9019]

Thank you all for talking about this for others who have experienced church hurt or cult like churches. This is far too common and walking through the hurt is painful but possible! So many truths shared here. Thx for the wisdom and perspectives

[@rebecca42734]

"The prayer room is an idol." 🎯

[@kotzting]

A "Prayer Movement" is unscriptural, especially the way that "The Animal House of Prayer" did it. There are so many good things at IHOP that became total idols. With all the emphasis on gifts, where was wisdom, discernment, and intellect? You can not imagine how embarrassing this is in the more general Christian community.

[@HeartAliveToday]

Yes! I've been saying this for over a decade. How do they square these public prayer rooms with Matthew 6:5-6, especially when they are streamed live over the internet? Speaking (babbling) in "tongues" is another golden calf that needs to be smashed.

[@jeffengstrom8657]

See 1 Cor.12:2

[@bigviewsmallwindow8335]

Finding out that "revival" can be an idol too.

[@RachelCarvossoMataraki]

Really appreciate the transparency of everyone here. Hearing different testimonies really reveals just how much the dynamics of Ihop follow the patterns found in abusive situations, whether an abusive marriage or a system the ultimate goal is control and dehumanisation. I studied some aspects of the effects of political regimes which use manipulation and control and the effects are reminiscent of what I heard hear. May God continue to pour out healing on all those who were effected. May this be a huge lesson where idolatry and toxic patterns have been prevalent in so many institutions.

[@dewuknowofHyMn]

I was in a ABUSIVE CHURCH (in Washington state) for 10 years ..,finally left 1 year ago...those people ARE INSANE !!!!!! Im not in any church now.....the abuse was soooo bad...there is many others that left because of abuse also.....

[@lizzygerard4373]

Everyone is a discerning expert now. Where was the gift when it mattered. Its a little embarrassing. Its like a Disney movie where a spell was cast over the village and it wasn't broken until the "bad guy" dies.

[@MichaelCTruth]

I just started watching this.. You make a great point. I tried to warn people often about several ministries but no one wanted to listen.

[@maryestes9584]

@@lizzygerard4373 The ones that were discerning have been long gone. Run off and destroyed by the thousands and these women didn’t care until it happened to them. Sometimes that is the only way you find out. What they do with it now that they “know” will be the test to see if they really care or not. I truly hope they can use their positions, platforms and leadership abilities to help all the ones destroyed who discerned it years before them.

[@jjmonty8090]

I came here to say this

[@meilingavelino9624]

The ones that have been sounding the alarm and warning are written off as pharisees or legalistic, even though time shows they're always right.

[@CA6-kh6og]

I was there 2000-2009ish and I left because I became aware that the teaching was false and Mike was either a liar or insane. His stories didn’t add up and didn’t align with Scripture. I told my friends. Told my supporters. Lost most of my relationships. But it was God’s mercy. Never looked back.

[@mamamia5130]

Just finished last week’s episode two minutes ago. These are hard and heavy things to hear, but there is a lot to learn about how we operate in the church.

[@dawnbrown2125]

Thank you for posting and helping people understand psychological manipulation abuse control and the staggering and detaining of people their time talent money and devotion.

[@RandomBoxingGuy]

“I know Mike Bickle to the depths of his soul, I’ve never met a more Godly man” - Sam Storm.

[@Connor_Sell]

Tells you all you need to know.

[@stephj7761]

Thank you for this interview, concerns I’ve expressed about the ihop style prayer movement and was misjudged for were said here. So it’s a comfort and I feel hopeful.

[@dougwalters3644]

This is depressing and horrifying....thank you ladies!!!!

[@Itsnice2]

Gateway church really operates the same way when it comes to hiring and repositioning people. Please look into this. I used to work there and it was very cultish.

[@LongDistanceMotorcycleFans]

Yep, completely

[@larrybateman1738]

Jimmy Evans stated that he left Gateway because leadership was dishonest and toxic.

[@Steadfast_Steady_Strong]

@@larrybateman1738I missed this. Any articles or videos about it?

[@Benjamin-rp4hq]

I greatly respect you guys acknowledging and admitting your wrong about the prophetic history. I hate how people have slandered you for taking the videos down, it shows their true motives are not in the right place

[@Possums-h8k]

I honor all five of you for your tender hearts and devotion to God. This was a superb video

[@sneaksyranger]

It was certainly good to hear the explanation, but it also felt shady when the (I believe it was 15 videos) were pulled and a prior video on Bickle's allegations had the comments locked in relative (public) silence. I can understand that they may have prioritized explaining to supporters, but this was something that may have been better served getting ahead of the cascade, since the videos had people singing Mike's praises and calling those who spoke against him as "reprehensible".

[@docbarm3338]

I guess I don’t understand why they still promote Sam Storms after all that.

[@Dana-hd8he]

People are brainwashed and loyal to the cult. Did this, replaced my former very evil sociopath/psycho-path Pastor with God violating Ten Commandments. Looking to and at the church to be extended family when it was so DYSFUNCTIONAL! I knew that people in IHOP were not reading their Bible and applying their Bible if they were in this cult it was very sad to see same behavior of what left. Wrote a lot of articles out of it, wrote that the church became a tool in the hand of satan to destroy the family, and it did a great job I've never sat in a church that's cared about the people or the families at all or how healthy they were and GROUNDED in Bible!

[@Dana-hd8he]

​@@sneaksyrangerthe videos had to be pulled , Mike predator, liar, a psychopath or a sociopath or both. Mike had been corrected for years by scores of people. It was Mike's own self serving cult. NO Foundations in and on the WORD the BIBLE. People are dead like Jeremiah Candler and Bethany Deaton sacrificed on this lying Molech, Baal cult. If the foundations are destroyed what will the righteous do?

[@docbarm3338]

1 hour into this and it’s evident that over spiritualizing things leads to many people leaving but also many fresh bodies coming into the ministry… turnover is massive at IHOPKC

[@donjames7236]

We had a ministry that came to our church during the late 90’s. The leader was out of KC mentoring ~ I understand now why this leader was why he was. So many of these character traits were part of this group. Easily disposable. “Apostolic” and prophetic words that were given to this person about their high calling to the region. It was so divisive and there was also so much flattery to get what they wanted. Lots of red flags but we were also experiencing a great outpouring so we disregarded so many things.

[@c.j.s5810]

These are standard protocol dynamics of many Charismatic church structures, thank you for detailing them so clearly here in the more severe setting of IHOP. For context, I was connected to most of this in my upbringing, also did multiple ministries, seminary etc… finally needed to leave it all, become a therapist and find healing separate from the church. The layers of use and abuse of humans as well as moral injury built into church structures, as well as unsafe theology is endemic. Some theology contributes to stunting human development as well as stunting empathy. Once you see the interplay damage of structure, power and theology it’s impossible to unsee it.

[@HeidiCancelleri]

Thank you for speaking out

[@lindag9975]

I was in the Vineyard movement when MB and his KC prophets were brought in. So we also believed that we were special and were going to be part of the huge stadium filled revivals. All because MB and the KC prophets had merged with us. Vineyard was looking for a new identity at the time anyway, so we were vulnerable. Besides so many of us were young and not aware of the pride we had in this

[@Dana-hd8he]

Linda bickle tried to take over Vineyard..

[@megtanner1856]

After growing up in church and being involved in ministry for many years, and having a brother who started one of the largest campus ministries, I just think we’ve made this all so incredibly complicated. It seems like every other week another church leader has been exposed and every few months, another church or denomination has been exposed as well. The way we’re doing Church just isn’t the way it’s supposed to go. We’ve complicated everything so much. It’s just not sustainable or healthy. When will we figure that out and just stop instead of trying to fix it. There’s too many structures, rules, people in power. The very way so many structures are structured lends itself to this type of diabolical person to do this much damage. It’s just so clear that the dynamics are so cultlike and so many churches. I appreciate all the people that are processing and exposing and discussing what’s happened. I’m also incredibly disturbed this many people with this much sensitivity and first-hand knowledge weren’t blowing the whistle sooner. Or if nothing else just leaving.

[@julzknapp7471]

45 min mark interruption….❤❤❤ These women’s honesty helps me feel seen and understood. Thank you so much for continuing to share. Please refuse to absorb the haters. I’m so grateful for all of you. Tears, thankful. 🥰

[@ernieplumley2600]

Thank you to all five of you for talking about all of this, specially spiritual abuse in the church. My heart broke a few times during this conversation for the hurting out there. I’ve been to a couple churches where my wife and I suffered the abuse so I know what can happen to a person going through the ordeal of abuse from leaders. I am healed from all of that now but it took us a few years. God bless you guys. I know you are helping bring healing to others.

[@dusankakandija7423]

good point that Michael made from the book - it is a narcissistic community, not just the leaader, have not thought about it that way. God bless you and keep you

[@wesleybaker3049]

Thank you everyone for talking about this and thank you for the pastoring!

[@e.m.8094]

I went to the first 8 or 10 "One Thing" conferences, and it was always something I looked forward to every year. The worship and Alan Hood's classes were usually my favorites. (Oh, and the bookstore was AWESOME.) Never would have thought something like this was going on, but in hindsight I guess there were a few odd comments spoken from the stage that I just thought were part of the (MB's) personality.

[@redneved93]

I'm an IHOPU alumni. Thank you so much for having these interviews. I'm afraid it's going to take me years to untangle the valid vs abusive things I learned, and these vids have been very healing. Will there be a part 3?

[@Jillousa]

I like how you mentioned the word valid. I had some things I questioned but didn't dig in too deep. I do believe that I had some valid experiences listening to the live stream and my couple of visits there. Makes it all hard for me to process. Sometimes in the middle of the night I would listen to a live stream and the person was praying things that were exactly what I needed during dark times.

[@betharnold2125]

I live on the west coast and I remember going to missions camp and the Lord calling intercessors in the mid 90’s . I think God was calling the church to prayer! I had a hunger. I also remember this minister I can’t remember what his name was but encouraging people to pray for an hour. What I realized I kept watching the clock, like it was making me feel good about myself and my relationship with the Lord. But what I found was I just needed to concentrate on my relationship with the Lord not how much time I was spending in prayer. Going back I do think the Lord was calling us into prayer.

[@Stoogewriter]

I went thru similar experience at a church I went to in the early 2000's. I would not allow the church leaders to control every single aspect of my life, I was called "a witch". My character was maligned to the point where I was compared to less than savory characters in the Bible like Achan (took spoils from Jericho when they were told to destroy everything & Israel was defeated at Ai, Ananias & Sapphira, etc. I was accused of trying to "buy their affection". I was blamed for ALL the church's problems! I was forced to resign from the youth ministry & then forced to leave the church! It devastated me for a long time! I never blamed God for it because I knew it wasn't His fault. I'm in a much better place. God brought me thru that and He is using it as part of my testimony.

[@hldvdsn100]

This literally feels like a Psy Op…and/or a full length movie or show. My gosh, the levels of twisting to maintain the narrative are so extremely diabolical! Just wow. 😳🤦‍♀️

[@aylerayler]

Mike bottling lightning. Endless inspiring everyone that his grand vision was the greatest. People want to feel important.

[@tripletgirl2484]

It’s interesting how intelligent people can disengage from critical thought almost easily. I have had to ask this of myself in recent years. Thank you all for a very helpful conversation.

[@tomaszszczech218]

Thanks for sharing.

[@Caderdi]

I'm curious: What is Mike doing now? Does he have a real job? Did he retire? Is he on a beach in Hawaii? I ask because about a zillion of us want to know.

[@lavieenrose5954]

I hope he is somewhere far far away..

[@cherylwilliams4738]

I hope and pray he is in a posture of godly humility, deep healing and purification. 🙏🏼

[@dusankakandija7423]

so sorry for all the pain you have been through, dear sisters, God bless you and keep you

[@Kathy-y7e]

I think anytime you're asked to leave a church, you are walking with the Lord! It's a badge of honor!

[@deployeddadtv699]

That is an insanely arrogant and self righteous generalization. Does that apply, then, to Mike Bickle? Carl Lentz? Mark Driscoll?

[@Kathy-y7e]

@@deployeddadtv699 It applies to me.

[@maryestes9584]

@@deployeddadtv699 wow

[@JuliexSteadman]

..praying that your wounds are healed.... i have had that experience too, I inadvertanlty came against prosperity teaching by seaking out someone who had written books against it. the minister found out and started attacking me from the pulpit...... (1990s) ...funnily enough, when bill johnson came over to the UK in 2019 to do evangelism training i attended to sus him out... i was at the back and a minister on the front row was asked to stand up as they wanted to applaud him... it was that same old minister who is well into Bethel theology... I didnt understand or know about dominion theology back then...

[@madelynhernandez7453]

Yes, while it may be sad, to me it means that you are different and wiser than they are and God is removing you. Where a door shuts, dust yourself off. I know the pain one must feel.

[@Jillousa]

Thanks for sharing. You're helping process past church hurt

[@PastorDukeTaber]

I would suggest you guys read or re-read Ken Blue's book on Healing from Spiritual Abuse. I have taken my core leaders through this book and it has helped us heal, along with proactive steps to prevent it from ever happening in the church I lead.

[@Bigfamily_fun]

Wow. At first I wasn’t on the same page with you guys. But as I listened I realized how toxic church culture has become, how it’s even affected me, and how I even have come to expect some of these behaviors. Wow! This is pervasive! Everywhere.

[@ryansegg]

This was so helpful to listen to. I wish I could hang out with these people and just hear them talk more align these lines. So many times I related to what they were saying

[@rebecca42734]

Saying someone's way of praying is a dime a dozen! That's disgusting.

[@Steadfast_Steady_Strong]

“Disgusting” is the perfect description!

[@alanhawkins_44]

What an important conversation. What a call to corporate repentance. Maybe a national call to fill stadiums and repent is in order. Corruption so deep. “We never go public!” A code that lives in the highest places.

[@Carnivorecatherine]

If abusive leaders only knew that we, the rejected ones, are here to help them become more like Christ. I could, & will listen to this over & over & glean something new every time.

[@andrearush6209]

40:41: This is so real and so disorienting. It happened. It's real. Thank you for sharing your story. May all you've learned continue to be leveraged for helping others find their way out of the darkness and heal.

[@Jillousa]

You just helped me describe some church had in the past . I had a pastor that would give me opportunity or remove it and there seemed to be no rhyme or reason for when I was given the opportunity or the opportunity was removed. It was just very difficult and hurtful especially when I just wanted to fulfill God's call in my life. It was so hurtful when my pastor couldn't tell me what I was doing wrong but I felt like I was doing something wrong.

[@brianjohnson52]

Thanking and praying for you ladies and your families!!! Peace and blessing be yours...

[@solomonsporchcollective]

Being a Christian makes us vulnerable to psychological/spiritual predators who have a manual on how to manipulate us. It is becoming more and more urgent, that we as sheep - even in the context of the communities that we serve in, become dependant on THE Good Shepherd to protect us from the many wolves out there in sheep’s clothing. Jesus, open our eyes to see and give us the courage and wisdom to act. Thank you everyone for giving us important information to be able to recognize the imposters.

[@elianaboer7593]

I have been through similar things, but I was young and isolated in a foreign country and had just recommited my life to God after losing my bff to drugs, so I just ended up losing my faith and 20 years later, I have just now come back to faith, and I see this, these ppl were close to ihop and I was always sad bc I didn't exist anymore to them, they had the prayer room and prophetic conferences to attend. Living in Israel can be extremely disillusioning. Someday I will share my story too maybe. I just pray these ppl realize the pain they have cost. What a wake up call to the church, the Fathers heart is for His children, Jesus life is our example and he did not hide in a prayer room, but was obedient to His Father. I would love to hide, trust me, I am an introvert, but loving others and the way we treat one another is what it is all about. As a mother, if you want to win my heart, or please me, then help, or bless my children, bc how you treat them means everything. Period.

[@aylerayler]

The radicalism, all or nothing, is exactly what Mike exploited. And yes, that's heady wine for young people. Simple solution for incredibly complex problems. Ugh this is all so hard.

[@j7489]

I mean Jesus was incredibly radical and told us to be morally perfect like the Father is.

[@dizzydisciple]

1:15:00 was a powerful line... wow

[@Stickythekid]

Started going to a Greek Orthodox Church. It has been eye opening in the best possible way. Praying for y’all

[@lavieenrose5954]

I love my Greek Orthodox brothers and sisters ❤

[@aylerayler]

1:30:47 Prayer room is an addiction and an idol.

[@AdamTheEvangelist24]

Yep. And we have the OBLIGATION to be proactive and "GO BACK AND CLEAN IT UP!"

[@maryestes9584]

@@AdamTheEvangelist24 The OBLIGATION should be to go out and find the 16 Thousand who got ground up in that machine and Make RESTITUTION to them…SMH

[@AdamTheEvangelist24]

@@maryestes9584 only The Word can do that. There is no restitution for this only restoration through the ministry of reconciliation... Again that's the Word of God.

[@maryestes9584]

@@AdamTheEvangelist24 Then we can all live without the community of believers and these institutions of men and be on our way..ta ta

[@ays5696]

Joshua, I take issue with the percentage you chose when you said that a pastor’s work with regard to “teaching the Word as most important function” ends up being 10% of what he does because of hospital visits and other one on one care. I would say it’s far more than 10% and MUST be far more than 10%. Obviously, only a portion is given out from the pulpit. Another big percentage must go to discipleship. BUT first and foremost, a big big chunk must go to studying the Scriptures (far more than study to prep for Sunday preaching), reading books, praying over it and for the congregation, and simply giving time to think about it - letting it roll over and over in one’s mind and heart. (Pattern seen in Acts 6:4). My husband has been church planting, ministering the Word, pastoring etc for over 50 years. He ALWAYS gives time to personal prayer, personal study (outside of preaching prep), etc alongside one on one ministry. He never preaches or teaches a passage/message without completely studying it again - looking up the original language meanings, good commentaries, then praying/meditating over it. A pastor needs to guard time for these things even if the people are outside the study door demanding time (and yes, your flesh will be pulled hard by such demands. Such demands will also steal from family time which also must be heavily guarded). There is a time & place for it all but blocking out time to “give yourself” to prayer and study of the Word will equip, empower and enlarge what you have to give in one on one ministry. Read that sentence again. Will empower and enlarge! Words of wisdom etc don’t come out of the air. In fact, all the gifts are evaluated and judged by agreement with the Word. We find abuses of the gifts and errors in doctrine most often are a result of lack of continual foundation in the Word of God. The pastor and elders are the guardians at the door. If they don’t really know the Word and are continually studying & memorizing it, etc, they will let things be said, taught and done which will be the little foxes that ruin the vineyard.

[@brandonbressler1839]

Love your heart guys!!! Michael Miller, I agree with your points so much!! Thank God for your pastoral hearts.

[@MsKati30]

My heart was absolutely crushed when I heard that a wonderful young lady who has been somewhat sheltered is going to be going to YWAM. 😭💔

[@maryestes9584]

@@MsKati30 IMO all these “Ministries” like YWAM are stepping stones for people to further their educations, careers and desire to be in ministry themselves. Who wouldn’t? The perks are great! Plus it’s a way to travel and live in other counties paid for by the working stiffs they are trained to fleece to pay for it all. Master Commissions, YWAM etc are all the same thing. Taught to trade their labor for a chance to travel and experience the life of a leader. All while being supported by the working class back at Podunk. The abuses are many in these ministries also. Depending on your rank and position you can be used up and destroyed right along with the Churches they are connected to. Or you could be promoted and rise to the top. Same system. Same results. It just depends on who you talk to.

[@zacdredge3859]

15:41 This is frankly a bizarre take on why people go to hell. In some sense this may be a result of people being sent to hell but there's no indication in Scripture that hell is a holding place to keep us protected from sinful people or something like that. I don't know what view of hell is being expressed here but if you hold to eternal torment it's very clearly the case that none of the suffering in question helps protect anyone.

[@carolzcarolz]

I noticed that too, but I don't think his intention was to start a new doctrine. He was just talking, and thinking out loud.....

[@Rebecca-hc5ju]

Very strange.

[@crazyfatty5843]

Wow- this hits home hard. I have experienced being in a Christian cult like this for about 20 years. Unfortunately it was way more extreme and so damaging. I left with my faith but it took a while to recover but had so much regret the way we treated family and friends outside the church. My biggest issue i had when I left was why didn’t God show the error that the church and pastor was in. Why didn’t God give me the discernment that i needed to leave. Now i know what to do and how to trust my instincts but it’s hard when you were in a cult for so long and not even being aware.

[@villekam1]

Mowing the lawn is straight from Macchiavelli. Concerning that those tactics are used in churches...terrible

[@Susan-zk7ne]

50 years charismatic here. Moved a lot and have been part of various churches. Can someone tell us what a healthy church is supposed to look like? I don't think I have ever been in one that was healthy. Does one actually exist? Also, was all this manipulation on Mike's part actually intentional and planned or just ignorance with a type A driven personality?

[@shaunbutler238]

Healthy churches look like healthy marriages. That's the best way I can say it. There's children born, raised, sent out and they go do the same. Replication, maturation, etc. The opposite also applies.

[@cestmoi5687]

I am convinced MB is a narcissist (you should read up on it if you aren't familiar with narcissism) and everything he did was intentional and strategic. Ignorance and a Type A personality doesn't make someone set up a system that allows you to prey on girls and young women.

[@lavieenrose5954]

50 years charismatic?? LOL WHY? 🙃

[@ivanasimic2072]

Does healthy individuals exist in these "churches" in leadership ?? Nope! They are not welcome to help to fix the things which are broken

[@Susan-zk7ne]

@@lavieenrose5954 Because of the difference between getting saved and joining a social club and being born again and growing in a personal relationship with Jesus. Just read the Bible without all the study guides and devotionals. One will be amazed at how magnificent God really is. It is a journey and sometimes there are some rather large pot holes but the Bible teaches how to navigate the pot holes if one wants to take the time to seek God on the issues that come up. Its a journey, not an event. Blessing to you in Jesus' name.

[@MsKati30]

I am finally getting back on to finish this. This is spot on concerning allegations of abusive behavior. We had an incident where people under the influence of this sort of theology (ihop) rallied around the abuser- we had clear and compelling evidence against a man who was demonstrating abusive and dangerous behavior towards our son. When our son who works in construction made the decision to not go on the short term YWAM HOH trip down to Mexico because he did not feel safe with this individual, the woman coordinating everything turned it back around on us. She told us that they were only praying for healing and reconciliation and that our divisive attitude was not beneficial to the HOH team or the church. Those in leadership who we have had a relationship with for quite some time had known of our concerns, seemed concerned themselves and supposedly spoken with this woman… to be honest, this hurt us as much as the concerning incidents! We did not return to church there again. This all happened around March, and the mission trip took place in April with the person we felt was dangerous included. It was a tough pill to swallow to see him smiling and all of the picture and being handed a microphone to give his trip testimony in front of the church when he returned. I feel like these types of organizations, as discussed in the video, are very very easy targets for predatory people because they will never be held accountable. The emphasis will always be on the response of those who have been hurt/victimized or abused.

[@mindyhale6812]

Nepotism in many of these churches. The entire family on staff is a red flag. Pastor making an example of others - even if just fictitious characters- from the pulpit to send a warning message to the congregation not to try this or that. Excessive emphasis on tithing and offerings, announcing how many ppl were in each service and pointing out how the church is growing though it looks like there are less people present. Pastor taking frequent vacations called "attending a conference, workshop, etc. to sharpen my skills" usually in some exotic location and taking family members along -- all expenses paid by the church or organization. Announcing that he will lead this or that prayer meeting or class only to rarely show up and the assistant filling in with a different excuse being made for him each time. The associate pastors are timid non-confrontational ppl, senior citizens, very young and inexperienced ppl zealous to help the pastor and they end up leading all the meetings except for the big ones. Some would say that's all normal delegation but when the church is small and that is all going on? Perhaps the most damaging is pastors making remarks that could be taken two ways to women or children. When confronted or exposed they claim they didn't mean it like it sounded. When previous abuse is disclosed in counseling sessions with pastors and they then use it to take advantage of the abuse victim themselves what is that? I call it satanic and the perpetrator in some cases has committed a crime such as when it is to abuse an underage child.

[@MsKati30]

All of this is so upsetting. This is the definition of spiritual abuse. There are things that make a lot of sense to me now that have been baffling. I now see the connection between YWAM and ihop and understand the source of my frustration with certain people who speak this type of spiritual nonsense

[@mamamia5130]

Lots of emotional triggers for me in this episode. And then she said they were accused of trying to take over ihop and the dam that was holding back the tears broke.

[@aylerayler]

54:00 Moral injury is no joke. Great job bringing it up Elizabeth 👍

[@jilliandavidson2838]

This is helpful for me because of my own experience at another church.

[@philipchaisson]

I'm glad RR is able to admit they were wrong, but there were people calling out MB and IHOP that were just blown off as heresy hunters. Idk if there's a better way to say this, but it's one thing to admit we are wrong and another (perhaps more difficult) thing to say someone else was right.

[@maryestes9584]

An apology is nice but no where near restoring the hundreds of innocent people who were ground up in their Celebrity Machine.

[@MichaelCTruth]

Exactly, I remember they were depending ihop right up until this all came out.

[@newinsights5496]

It seems like there is a lot of competition and ambition in churches like that….the people who go there are looking for the praises and the promotion. What happened to the Biblical concept of a woman who just quietly serves her family at home, do it the hard way and wait for the Lord to add people to her life that He wants there? The men ( and women) who lead these churches are toxic, but it does seem that the people who follow them do not just want to love the Lord according the Word, they want the favor, they want the publicity, their ‘identity’ is everything to them. Jesus told us to die to ourselves. What happened to that? Why do you HAVE to express your gifts publicly? If the Lord wants you to do it, He will make a way. If He does not make a way, then express your gifts to Him alone. You do not have to go currying favor with toxic people and worry about your identity. It is sad that the people discussing this seem not to know the simplicity of the Christian life and the gospel.

[@savedbyGrace1234]

I’m so sorry ladies- manipulation is evil - I’m sorry and heartbroken you were treated like this. Hell is reserved for these people. God bless you

[@twanettefourie3131]

We pray Isa 66:13, that the Holy Spirit will console these ladies and all victims involved.

[@TheSpiritualParentingPodcast]

@mikemiller we need a list of the books you referenced.

[@yIsThisMyName]

Do you think you have to submit to a leader? Do you seek permission to go to another church? Are you chastised or rejected for not accepting responsibility for a position or chore in the church. Are you corrected for being late when you clearly see the leader is late often? People are people. You have to learn to stand up for yourself. You have to set clear boundaries and impose them on yourself. Boundaries are for you. Being demanding and bossy toward others is abuse. I listen to podcasts about narcs to find out where I fit on that spectrum. It's wise to correct yourself and position yourself around those who do the same. Reciprocity is the name if the game for a loving, caring relational model. Treat others the way you like to be treated and if fellow members don't return the favor, evacuate! Don't be a victim! Don't be invalidated, fired, dismissed, etc. Do what you do cause you enjoy it. Do what you do cause it benefits you and your family. Take great care of your priorities.

[@kimberly27285]

1:03:45 the story that starts around this time is so disheartening. It’s just highlighting how these people in leadership positions exhibit such poor leadership and ungodly behaviour.

[@yIsThisMyName]

The pain comes when you can't figure out what you did wrong. In that place is where you find out wrong teaching. Wrong beliefs.

[@BrendaBoykin-qz5dj]

Thank you 🌹⭐🌹

[@Kathy-y7e]

Churches aren't businesses. They are a living Body. Business models are Bravo Sierra and is evidence of getting off track

[@lavieenrose5954]

Nothing wrong with typing ‘bullshit’ my friend ❤

[@yeshuaiscomin]

Sad deal for everybody. Spiritual tragedy. Mike is not the only one unfortunately 😩 thank you for your heartfelt honesty sharing your stories and the stories of what happened. You are bold witnesses.

[@ivanasimic2072]

Bless your heart Elizabeth!