Behringer PRO-800: SLOW envelopes compared to other synths?

Here is my reaction video to the complaints, that I did not test the envelopes the right way in my first PRO-800 review! Judge yourself! And you find some information about the new Firmware update via the Synth-Tribe App.
Buy it here (Affiliate):
thmn.to/thoprod/566190?offid=...
Tom Noise video: • Behringer Pro-800 tips...
00:00 - Intro
00:39 - Firmware Update 1.2.0
02:08 - The Envelope Scandal!
03:50 - Sound Examples
08:36 - Conclusion
11:39 - Wine & Music!
Wine: barberani.com
#behringer
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www.Heddaudio.com
www.wein-et-cetera-berlin.de
for supporting our channel!
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℗ & © Wine&Synths 2023 a project by monsieurpiper.de

[@iamyourfuture808]

Behringer cant win can they? if theyd have given it snappy envelopes snipes would have been saying it doesn't sound like the Pro 600 😂

[@winesynths]

Yeah! Exactly! 😁

[@klstay]

Being "upset" at someone pointing out the envelopes are slow is senseless but understandable - folks tend to have a certain emotional connection to their synths and pointing out any shortcoming (all designs have some) can feel personal at times. Anyone buying this synth (or a Prophet 600) and expecting snappy envelopes has failed to fully inform themselves on the nature of the product. Being able to invert the envelope on the 800 is one of the great small changes and goes a long way to addressing this IMHO.

[@chakko007]

The Prophet synths aren't really renowned for their fast, snappy envelopes anyway, are they? That said, the JUNO-6 he shows as an example for faster envelopes isn't really renowned to have fast envelopes either... if you want fast envelopes, check the Minimoog for example (or the Behringer Model D). Fast as lightning.

[@klstay]

@@chakko007 Not really a "Prophet" synth, but Pro One was SNAPPY. The good part about the modulation being digital is they can fix this - and I hope they do, but not too upset if not since I have stuff that is already.

[@chakko007]

@@klstay If the envelopes behave like the ones in the original, I don't know if there's anything to fix though.

[@noisynois1670]

Your are confusión,dont make a kick or percusión sound?another synth subsequent o4 eurorack modules of snares kikcs etc etc,no hablo ingles cualquier sinte tiene su carácter no mola a por otro a mí me flipa en seis días me llegan no existe ni en vst por supuesto ni en muchos de las bestias de 4000 pavos esos acordes que se nota ya lo que vale encima puedes experimentar,osea es versátil,saludos

[@adammann9371]

Doesn't change my opinion of the synth overall. I ordered one based on the demos I heard and it sounds vintage to my ears at a very affordable price. It will slot in nicely amongst my analogue synths 😃

[@winesynths]

Yeah! No problem it‘s a nice box! Enjoy it! 🤖

[@danselzer]

I thought the GIGLI mod, which is part of this, was supposed to take care of that?

[@galifettetv1238]

Why is it not the case?

[@dpalaoro]

Yeah, I also was told you can switch between the slow envelopes if you prefer them also.

[@GunnarLoeb]

Thanks for the comparision! I hope Behringer can improve this with software updates

[@michaelpierce3264]

well they were aiming for the prophet600 so slow envelopes are part of the sound!

[@jeansebtremblay]

Thanks for this video

[@thexor902]

very, very, very good comparison. thanks!

[@tomnoise23]

Thanks for the shout out mate! Great Video again. To be fair, comparing it to a Juno-6 is like comparing a VW Beetle to a Golf GTI (to stay in the 80s) - the Juno-6's Envelopes are just amongst the fastest you will find on Polysynths and also the modulation depth (in contrary to the Pro-800, but also to the Jupiter-8) goes much higher. On the Pro-800 it's like half of the amount. But hey: True to the original! Keep up the good work!

[@winesynths]

Yeah! Thanks! There where some people doubting that the envelopes are as slow as we said! So: Quod erat demonstrandum! And even the JX is clicking like a sewing machine! 😁

[@ChrisOBrien1980]

does it change things if you set it exponential vs linear with the fast setting? Did I miss you mentioning this?

[@winesynths]

No! I tried everything. There is simply nothing more to say about. No secret snappy envelope setting in the menu! 🤖

[@roetsj]

The Behringer Pro one had slow envelopes when it came out,thanks to a software update they fixed this,but the original had snappy ones,this one never had.

[@gadjox]

I don't think anyone buys this because of the original. Everyone wants a cheap analog poly that's as good as possible. At least I do..

[@mikemeengs5720]

​. Yup. I bought mine for the eight voices of dual VCO analog goodness. Everything else is just iceing on the cake.

[@johansunnegardh2691]

1:04 : Is the preset editor Mac only? I am not seeing it on Windows with Synthtribe 2.6.1. Btw, the envelopes have been improved significantly with fw 1.2.6

[@winesynths]

I only have Mac in my studio. So I can't try it with windows. Sorry. Here is a new video about the improved envelopes: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6uwqGqsdp5onsU

[@ChristianLarese]

Interesting. Thanks for the comparison. Okay, the Pro800 can't to percussive sounds. But the sounds you're creating here, going from fast to slow decay, I actually prefer the Pro800 😅. Sounds coming in very smooth. Reminds me of the sound of a song - can't recall which one, I guess sth from Zero7. Anyways I ordered a Pro800 and hope it'll arrive soon. For me it's perfect for thick pad sounds (with those very very slightly detuned osc). For attacky sounds I have my good old digital Nord Wave, for a good lpf i have my Moog Sub Phatty and for deep musical expression and new sounds I have my Expressive E Osmose. I like instruments that can't do everything. I like instruments that aren't too versatile. Makes me musically more creative.

[@AbsurdTV1]

Danke sehr !! :)

[@winesynths]

Bitte sehr! 🤖

[@MrTfortiger]

I was often facing hanging notes in the stock firmware which after which the pro 800 was unresponsive (only reverting to factory settings resolved it) After upgrading to 1.2.0. i haven't had this issue as of yet!

[@winesynths]

I made two videos now with the 1.2.0 Midi hangs are still common.

[@MrTfortiger]

@@winesynths sorry to hear, will keep an eye out. Maybe there’s a difference between USB and (my) Dawless setup?

[@Gainn]

Had a noodle on one yesterday and it seems like the 'Envelope Amount' has a very non-linear curve mapped (almost like the 'biological growth' curve) and it never goes to 100% on either axis. Your demo sounds like the Pro-1 if the filter attack is slightly offset from zero. Wondering if using CC's on the 800 will allow you to go beyond the dial calibration.

[@winesynths]

I did not try Midi control yet! Because the lack of a Local-Off parameter makes the programming a bit fatiguing! I am dreaming of a nice macro for Ableton! 🤖😴

[@Gainn]

​@@winesynths Once I get mine (should be tomorrow) I'll hook it up to my trusty Tracker and have a real dig into the MIDI implementation.

[@Outdoorshuntingshooting]

i don't need 'snappy' snappy envelopes on a polysynth. not a deal breaker for me.

[@KiR_3d]

Pro-800 vs DM12 sound comparison, please! Similar features of course. In my ears Pro-800 sounds better (for me!) but I can be wrong. Would be cool if you can compare them.

[@winesynths]

Unfortunately I don‘t have a Deepmind here. I will wait for the Saturn-Juno Clone! 😁

[@johnsmith-nd9yo]

Deepmind12 is a BEAST of a synth ! I noticed Noel Gallaghers High Flying Birds are using Deepminds kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6i0iouPo5aejbM

[@Claude_van]

Having a Microwave 1 I wonder if the Pro 800 is worth the money?

[@winesynths]

Get a decent controller for your MW instead! I had a MW 1 too and to me it’s only flaw was the terrible UI. Otherwise it still sounds great and is a classic! 🤖

[@torbenanschau6641]

I don't get why on a poly synth "fast" envelopes are even important. You use them for brass, pads, strings, choir. No fast envelopes needed, in opposite you might need long increase and decrease. For typical melodic synth bass which you would play on keys, even the JX-8 P envelopes are sufficient. Maybe not for sequencer lines and Arpeggios. This is what polyphonic synths are actually not made for. You'd use the Pro 1 instead.

[@patriciaoudart1508]

Agree. Two worlds , noise against Music. This synth is for Music not teen's turning pots.

[@yabonyobe1441]

I agree , I have other synth with fast env and fast env (for my use) is not required for a poly that im going to use mostly for pad, brass and strings. The good news, so many mono analog with very snappy envs :)

[@stergiost.6246]

Poly synths are also made for stabs, plucks, arpgs, keyboard sounds..

[@torbenanschau6641]

@@stergiost.6246 But for Stabs you don't need fast envelopes. You use Gate for the VCA. The'fast' is about the decay rather than the attack I think. So for Arp it might matter. But that again is mostly used for monophonic tones. How often do you arpeggiate chords? I can do that on the Poly D but that's pretty rare.

[@litemakr]

The Prophet 600 had slow envelopes so this isn't a surprise. Also, you're paying $399 for 8 real analog voices that actually sound good. That's less than the tax on a new Prophet 10, so what is there to complain about? Sounds like Behringer is going to add the option for snappier envelopes in a firmware update.

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

I bought the P10 module, yes, this thing sells for the tax! Getting this one for an a-b, probable swap out.

[@sylvainleduc2366]

what do you think abouth the elektron synth? i have a analog keys and its very complicated for me used to have workstation but the analog sound

[@winesynths]

I am not interested in Elektron as a brand. No need for me! As you say: too complicated! 🤖

[@MJanovicable]

Once again, a thorough, even scientific review. What is that device, mein Herr? I have a paperback copy of David Abernathy's The Prophet of Silicon Valley - the complete story of Sequential Circuits (2015) and it is clear on the point that the Prophet-600 was designed as a budget synth and, therefore, not nearly as great as the Prophet-5. That's fine, but it's still gold to most of us who simply have wanted to own an affordable analog polyphonic, often for decades. From page 224: -The LFO, glide and envelope control voltages are created within the O/S software and are reproduced via an eight-bit DAC. The result is that the envelope attacks are not as snappy as the Prophet-5's analog envelope control. So there it is, a good catch! I think they chose this synth carefully and chose a winner that could be manufactured about as cheaply as you could with an analog clone. The Prophet-5 had noise, the original PRO-600 didn't, but we get it with one of the Gligli upgrades. I don't have this synth yet, but I have been put on a waiting-list at Sweetwater and am excited! No, it's not so great as the Prophet-5, but at this price point, and going from the demos online here and elsewhere, the sound is very sweet to these ears, this is the real deal that is likely to become a legendary entry level analog poly for so many young people, as well as the rest of us older people who've been waiting patiently! The PRO-800 will almost certainly be one of the most important synths that Behringer ever adapts for the present. PS: I can vouch on the Juno's envelopes, they were/are pretty fast.

[@winesynths]

Thanks for this interesting details! 🤖👍

[@electrocolourfield2200]

I bet they could give a prophet 5 envelope curve on this if they really wanted to, maybe they could add it as a hidden feature one day ?

[@patriciaoudart1508]

The question is only how it sounds. What uses in our music, how this complete our studio set, and if we have money to put in this instrument or another. Pleased to listen the Juno 6 as you know I have one, and it has the better clic of the world! Just push the button S and the sound rise🤗

[@winesynths]

Live without a Juno is possible, but…. 😁

[@PorchBass]

This is common on synths with digital envelopes though isn't it? Roland se-02 also got slammed for coarse envelopes... Jx-8p sounding snappy!

[@winesynths]

Jx-8p envelopes are also digital. And modern digital synths like the UDO or the Radikal Delta CEP have even faster envelopes. 🤔

[@BatteryCoverMissing]

Casio cz-101 is digital and has very fast envelopes also.

[@winesynths]

@@BatteryCoverMissing yeah! Even Casio! 👍 Your name reminds me my old SH-101! RIP! 😂

[@Hogboy345]

Yuck. Was excited about this but I had no idea the envelopes were that slow. Deal breaker for me.

[@NOLNV1]

I think it's probably useful for a lot of stuff still, but damn that really is slow

[@peterdekkers]

Those snappy envelopes on the Rolands...

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

Glad I watched until the end - why don't you recommend this as a first synth? The ASM one uses tiny keys, I have giant hands, rule out. What does the Deep Mind do that this one does not? Interesting video. I bought P10 module, 10x the price of this, the P5/10 clone may be years away. Thank you!

[@Sycokay]

The Deepmind does a ton that this one does not (more voices, envelopes, modulation possibilities, comes with an UI editor, highpass filter, effect section, display, ...) and imho it sounds better. But the Pro-800 is a nice machine, doesn't take up much space, and the price is unbeatable. But still, my first analog poly was the Deepmind, and I'm glad it was.

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

I returned the P10 module and got the Pro-800. It's been a nightmare finding a decent keyboard to use it with, but I just scored a mint Novation SLMK2 (not 3) 61 key (I'm a pianist, need good keys). I still might get the Deepmind.@@Sycokay

[@geephlips]

I’m always a little mystified by the whole concept of snappy envelopes and now I’m even more mystified. All I heard was a clicky arp, which TBH gets annoying after about a minute. Is this some kind of treasured EDM sound or something? But I was curious to see how the click patch sounded on my Polybrute. Even snappier, which I suppose you would consider a good thing, but I’m struggling to find a use case other than mimicking the click you get with an organ percussion. Do the clicks help get northern Europeans moving on the dancefloor? Maybe there is some kind of ancestral DNA memory of clicking shoes in traditional folk dancing? ;)

[@winesynths]

The Polybrut indeed has nice and snappy envelopes! I can confirm! So you are safe! And it‘s not about the click itself. Envelopes shape the sound. It‘s one of the most important components of a synth. And you want them to be as flexible as possible. Take electronic drum sounds as an example. With the Pro-800 it‘s nearly impossible to make percussive sounds. Maybe I should think about a general sound design video to complete this series! 🤖

[@jmoffitt36]

All good. Actually liked them. Don’t plan on it using for that anyway. Just want it for the Poly and plan on throwing effects pedals on it anyway.

[@k_t_a66]

The original Prophet 600 also had slow envelopes so what is the complaint? They re-created it as the original Prophet 600 was = slow envelopes. Simple as that.

[@winesynths]

Basically, it is what I say in my video! I and why I can't recommend this synthesizer to newbies who are looking for a more versatile analogue instrument. Already in the 80ies, the Prophet 600 was a lame synth, what I widely described in my first review video. Sometimes it helps to watch videos til the end! 🖖

[@k_t_a66]

@@winesynths I just don't really understand the purpose of your video as the fact is that they recreate exact copies of synths. So lame synth or not in your opinion. The synth is exactly as it's surposed to be and many seem to like it.

[@winesynths]

In general: Slow envelopes like this on a new Synthesizer feel like buying a new bike with flat tires! It‘s a matter of quality, not of taste! It cuts down 90 % of the sonic capabilities of this synth! But Behringer already announced in public, that they will change it. So it seems that I and my fellow KZbinrs like Tom Noise are not totally wrong.

[@odourboy]

​@@winesynthsit was because of Behringer's acknowledgement and a willingness to improve the envelopes that I placed my order. This could yet be a real Prophet! 😂

[@bbaudio4341]

V1.2 fixes midi messages from old Roland and Yamaha synths like D50 and Alpha Juno 2. There will be a new firmware update soon with a new super fast snappy envelope setting in a similar way to the Pro 1. A local off and midi soft thru mode will also be added.

[@winesynths]

Thanks for this information! I think, there is still a lot of room for detail improvement! Compared to the Midi desaster on the Super6 when it came out, the Pro-800 already runs really smooth! And Behringer then has us KZbinrs for gratis Beta testing! 😁

[@bernyboss]

A software update is coming soon! 😉

[@validcore]

Reminds me of everyone complaining about the snappy envelopes on the Minilouge when it first came out. Just the opposite.

[@winesynths]

Really? 😁

[@MrOuija-rr8kq]

Luckily I will not be using it to create drums. If anything it’s going to make it a little more funky

[@JLRoman]

New update fix -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaDbZ3eCe7WZoM0

[@eancurtis9333]

The pro 1 was also slow and useless... Haha the sound difference with the Juno and the behringer lol

[@music4computers]

They patched the envelopes.

[@DanglyLingham]

With release 1.2.6 they have faster envelopes as per Synth King video.

[@winesynths]

I already covered this too! kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6uwqGqsdp5onsU

[@commutercommuter]

New firmware with new envelopes available now ;-) 1.2.6.....a new video again ? 😜

[@winesynths]

Yeah! They are really annoying!!! 😂

[@commutercommuter]

@@winesynths and a new firmware again!! New Video ?? 🤣🤣🤪?

[@winesynths]

@@commutercommuter Nope! Synth is back at Thomann! Finally it wasn‘t exciting enough for me! 🤖

[@commutercommuter]

@@winesynths It's really really even better with 1.2.7...Extended env modulation is great!!!

[@winesynths]

@@commutercommuter yeah! I still follow the story with a fellow youtuber and in the Behringer FB. They are really doing well! I am impatient to see what comes next! 😁

[@annother3350]

Weird editor GUI!

[@winesynths]

not the best in town! 😁

[@bangprints8816]

Real Connoisseur Barberani Villa Monticelli - Luigi Giovanna 🍷 ✌

[@winesynths]

Cheers! The wine is a real benchmark! Italo-Disco for the tongue! 😁🥂🇮🇹

[@GNeuman]

Just buy a Behringer Model D clone if you want snappy envelopes for bass sounds...

[@winesynths]

I have enough snappy synths! Thanks! 🤖 I just wanted to warn the people not to be too optimistic about this one as an allround Polysynth! For pads and other mellow sounds its quite ok! Filters are also nice.

[@GNeuman]

@@winesynths sorry, my comment wasn't meant as a criticism of you or your video! You do very detailed and interesting videos! I think my meaning was that if you want a cat as a pet and then get a dog and are disappointed that it's not a cat then it's not the fault of the dog, if you see what I mean.

[@winesynths]

@@GNeuman absolutely! And Pet comparisons are always cool! 😺

[@GNeuman]

@@winesynths Tricorder readings are always cool too. 😎👍😀😉

[@bjornlohmander7431]

Faster envelopes are coming in an upcoming firmware. 👍

[@winesynths]

Hope dies at last! 🤖

[@bjornlohmander7431]

@@winesynths As I understand the “super snappy envelopes” are to be expected in their next update along with a few bug fixes -such as this one. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGO3h4VohNKZZs0

[@Free2010Spirit]

Sie sprechen perfekt auswärts 😂

[@winesynths]

Und die Auswärtigen lieben es! 🤖

[@ericMT]

Slow envelopes? Throw it in the bin.

[@winesynths]

No! I send it back to where it came from! Or I‘ll ask Bad Gear! 😁🤖

[@zap7759]

Yeah thats slow lol

[@frankplatzek2701]

Gruseliges Englisch / Horrible German accent... Das lässt sich nicht ertragen und zuende anschauen 😒

[@winesynths]

Ach my Darling! Dann guck doch einen von den ach so zahlreichen Deutschen Kartoffel-Kanälen mit ähnlichem Qualitätskontent! Viel Erfolg! 🍀 Ich kann hier auf die winzige Deutsche Sprachlehrer-Meckerminderheit leider keine Rücksicht nehmen. Sorry! Der Rest der Welt freut sich entsprechend zu rund 95 % über meine Videos! 🤖🤓

[@imogensun7183]

Again thanks for the diving into the Pro-800 envelopes! 🤿✉ I do not really believe that there is any strategic or tactical reasoning behind it, e.g. the suspicion that flaws are left/designed on purpose so that other products are better by comparison. More likely: the GliGli mod runs on a 2KHz oscillator update (--> that is the shortest change you can get in any time dependent movement) and Behringer just copied that. Note that the original P600 with its dinosaur CPU runs at very low update frequency. I haven't switched back recently, but I am sure that the envelopes are even more inert on the original P600. Improvement? Depends on your point of view. I was never bothered by the envelopes on the short end. If I want clicks, I go to the Jupiter 4. However, still waiting for that delivery from Thomann...

[@winesynths]

I am looking forward to hear from people who can compare it to the original!

[@matrix12x]

The original OS for the P600 has considerably slower envelopes than the GliGli version. The GliGli version is as fast as the hardware limit for the multiplexers that the P600 uses can reliably go. There have been tests to increase the speed, but the hardware is the limitation. I know first hand, I did the coding for the most of the versions above 2.2.

[@winesynths]

@@matrix12x Thanks for this interesting information!

[@KiR_3d]

I think it's a kind of a sentiment for all who did used to play on Pro-600 and now they can buy it's better version but having the same general character. For me it's not a sentiment because I've didn't had a chance to buy or even touch Pro-600 :)

[@matrix12x]

@@winesynths I'd also like to add that imogen did a killer job of his coding on his version of the P600's current OS. His envelope shapes are very musical.