Being Put In Place!

[@nancytrahan118]

Best comment I have heard yet about garment change. “Concentrate on why we are wearing it - not what we can get away with”.

[@sherielink601]

I don't care enough one way or another about this polygamy stuff. It has nothing to do with my faith in Christ.

[@MaryW359]

Everything comes back down to polygamy and the reason why the church is under condemnation and in apostasy. Don't be the one Jesus turns to and says "you never knew me".

[@MaryW359]

Joseph's words have been completely changed from the original meaning due to the overhauled updates on Joseph's journals after his death. Joseph Smith Papers show clearly the scribble out and additions made by BY handwriting to fit the new narrative.

[@sherielink601]

@@MaryW359 whatever

[@cameronvantassell9483]

​@MaryW359 wow so you believe that if I don't trust your interpretations of these things over the Prophet that I sustain then Jesus will say that I never knew him? I think you go just a bit too far there. Even if you do end up being right, it is not your place to dictate what members of The Church are supposed to believe or do, that is the President of the church in consultation with the Apostles.

[@MaryW359]

@@cameronvantassell9483 please provide any scripture that backs that up.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Funny thing about that. Michelle Stone has helped me to stay in the church. She and many others are bringing truth to light while setting a good example of being faithful to the truthful parts of the church. These folks are listening to other people rather than learning for themselves.

[@MichelleBStone]

Hello, Brother Palmer Thank you for this video. I love your insights and perspective. I feel bad that you have taken so much heat from merely mentioning me. It has been so strange to see the things that are said about me and to watch the reactions from people who don't listen to me themselves, but simply believe the misrepresentations, exaggerations and out of context clips people have posted. I wonder if you would be open to having a conversation, either on your channel, or mine, or just privately if you would prefer that. I have studied the topic of polygamy in great depth, and I believe I could shed much light on the things you mentioned in this video. I would be very happy to answer any questions you have -- both about polygamy, and about my beliefs and perspectives and activity in the church. It has been very disappointing to see so many people actively calling for my excommunication from the church. It has been awful to see the campaigns to inundate my poor local leaders with emails. And when that hasn't worked (because I am a sincere member) to see people insisting that I should leave the church. I HOPE it is a small minority of members who engage that way. I sincerely appreciate the members who are not afraid of discussions and the sincere search for truth -- even if at times it might conflict with some of our traditions or understanding of our history. I will just say this one thing here, since I am so often terribly misrepresented: I strongly believe in marriage as God established it from the beginning -- between one man and one woman. I believe that is the essential core of the covenants God establishes with humankind. The more I have studied this topic the more profound and brilliant and essential I have found God's establishment and plan of marriage to be.

[@tennisgirl57]

I would love to see you and brother Palmer discuss this!!!

[@energyismebp]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Michelle. And thank you for all the work and research you have done and shared with us . Joseph Smith and Hyrum were not liars ❣️❣️❣️❣️

[@millenialhymns]

Michelle, I can tell you that the Devil is the only one that thinks he can conquer. Stand strong and lean in on the Lord and he will continue to direct your paths and strengthen you when no one else can. Prayers for your protection. Your work is important. And sometimes that work only needs to last for a season to wake up those who have been asleep or have misunderstood true history.

[@millenialhymns]

(The truth cannot be stopped and will increase without any of us pushing singlehandedly too hard.)

[@watcherpalmerlds]

Please contact me at [e-mail]. I would love to chat on any platform. Thank you for reaching out.

[@cheriehoeger8961]

Thank you, Brother Palmer, for your open and honest approach and support for Michelle Stone’s valuable research. She has helped so many women rectify years of mental dissonance surrounding the issue of polygamy and what that means for our place and worth as women in the kingdom of God. I used to not want to go to the celestial kingdom if it meant I had to live a law that broke the hearts of so many of my pioneer ancestors. Now I have hope. Thank you for not casting quick judgement on this good woman like so many others do.

[@darkwinterprepper8495]

We need to be able to speak freely about any gospel topic! Ignore the censors and shamers!

[@rckburris]

In all my years as a member of this church there have been two issue that I have had trouble defending to our critics...the priesthood ban and polygamy. I personally know two individuals who have left the church over Joseph Smith's alleged polygamy. Admittedly, I have not researched the issue very much. And I do not give it much thought until I am asked about it by a nonmember.

[@Mmads-vq4rv]

With the garment, I think it's interesting that it's only the woman that complain of the heat or rashes they get from garments. Never the men. When I see men hiking, they wear a tshirt and long shorts. Woman take off the garment for a tank and short shorts. Is it really only woman that get hot or is the world creeping in for woman to wear less and less? I think the later.

[@dianewagner5467]

Women of a certain age get heat flashes or power serges all the time.

[@LavenderBlue-g1j]

When I hike I wear cloth s that cover my garments. I see a lot of women younger than me wearing tanks for exercise etc

[@robynmills5534]

Yep!

[@Triumphantday]

That's just straight up not true. My husband and brothers complain of being hot ALL the TIME. They end up taking off their tops to hike or for lawn mowing etc. my husband and I absolutely do not exercise with garments on, ever. It's not your business whos wearing them or not and the why's. Focus on yourself.

[@margiespeight1041]

@@TriumphantdayI so wish the church would get out of the underwear business. 😇

[@ashleysb3]

Michelle has done so much research most of it from the Joseph Smith Papers, as well as Church Archives. There is so much that has been released on the Joseph Smith Papers recently and it's available for anyone to view. I'd invite everyone to go read it and view it yourselves. Especially the journal pages referenced here in the TPJS manual where certain phrases were removed and others were added.

[@galcomom]

Why does every single bit of church history have to proved, disproved and hashed over. If the church is true, let it go, put in on the shelf of faith knowing that someday we will understand the meaning of all things.

[@tennisgirl57]

Honestly, I don't believe God wants us to just put things on the shelf the scriptures teach us to ask!

[@galcomom]

Well when there is obviously no clear proof or scripture proving polygamy one way or the other, why have the contentious debates? Nothing good comes from this. ​@tennisgirl57

[@galcomom]

Something like polygamy can't be proved or disproved by scripture. That is where a person's faith needs to come in, thus avoiding contention with everyone trying to prove their point, causing hard feelings.

[@littleredhen3218]

@@galcomom Someday is today. God has begun making all things known in these last days. Jump on board. it's really exciting. It will try you to your core. It will help you determine if you are a wheat or a tare.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@galcomom Nor can it be proved by anyone's writings or records. To make either position requires you to arbitrarily discount records. For example, to make the claim that JS was never a part of plural marriage, you have to throw out all the journals and testimonies of those who write about it, such as Emily Partridge, Lucy M. Smith, William Clayton, and a number of other personal wotnesses, not to mention the Prophets and Q12 members.

[@ericerickson1027]

The question is not whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. The question is whether you have a testimony of the succession of prophets, that God calls prophets to guide His Church, and whether you sustain those prophets.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@ericerickson1027 Agreed. And I do sustain!

[@NaeNae62]

@@ericerickson1027 exactly!

[@g71816]

Bingo! And Jacob 2:27,30 simply says why.

[@jen0740]

In Jacob chaper 2 when the Lord says, "These Things", he is referring to the abominations and whoredoms... You are filling in the meaning you want when you read it as: " For I will, [sometime in the future] saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me [children], I will command My people [to practice polygamy]; otherwise [if I don't want to raise up children at this time] they shall hearken unto these things [these commandments to have only one wife]. I feel like it makes more sense in the context of the entire chapter to be read as, "For if [since] I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto Me [righteous children], I will command My people [I'll give them commandments]; otherwise [If I don't give them commandments] they shall hearken unto these things [whoredoms and polygamy]." You will have to realize each person can ask God as they read the scriptures to enlighten their minds and hearts with truth... you don't have a right to interpret that for everyone. It's unkind to assume people with differences are beneath you and respond in a condescending tone.

[@g71816]

​​​​​​@@jen0740you have to twist the word "hearken" into knots to take it in the complex and convoluted retranslated way you are proposing. And you are making a strawman about the way the Church interprets verse 30. Strawmen arguments are not kind. Here's a plain reading: "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; ... "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." We should hearken to his command for monogamy. But the Lord reserves the right to give another command, otherwise we need to hearken to the command for monogamy. Hearken means listen to and obey.

[@LiftTruckcom]

LDS have two options. 1) Go with current opinion of Joseph Smith, who had 20 wives, one the was 14, he constantly lied the his wife many times, therefore is hated around the world. As a result, The Book of Mormon is not respected anywhere except by LDS. 2) Joseph was faithful to wife Emma and was framed to be a polygamist. He was true to his word and lived a truly noble life. Polygamy was brought by others over the years and intentionally convinced others polygamy is a doctrine of God brought in by Joseph. Joseph and Hyrum constantly taught marriage is between one man and one woman. You can only pick one. Someday we will die and see all Joseph. What was your position?

[@watcherpalmerlds]

You said it simple, straight forward, and better than I did. Thank you!

[@jaredshipp9207]

It's interesting that those who take the view you do are the ones who are apostatizing. Not the other way around.

[@LiftTruckcom]

@@jaredshipp9207 Maybe because they have been lied to. Joseph was slandered from the evidence. God wants people who love truth no matter what the cost. People leave because they did not know Joseph polygamy past. Many people would return if they knew he was faithful. The Book of Mormon predicts this in 1 Nephi 14- Our stubbing blocks will be taken away and bad guys will fall in the trap they set. Get ready for the show.

[@littleredhen3218]

@@jaredshipp9207 We are not apostatizing. This information about Joseph and Hyrum coming to light only strengthens ones testimony in the restoration and the work of God. We are learning not to trust in the arm of flesh but trust in God. No reason to take a hike. A solid reading of the Book of Mormon proves this church is true. some of the people are not true to the truth, they falter by every wind of doctrine, including and especially false doctrine. Weed out the tares and gather with the wheat.

[@moneymcr]

@@LiftTruckcom Sorry, you don’t get to limit the options. One does not have to believe option 1 to support the view that Joseph received a revelation to implement polygamy. Perhaps we can be just a bit more nuanced.

[@jen0740]

The quote you read from "The Teachings of Joseph Smith" was a revised quote... original documents show that a few lines had been added that weren't originally there, changing the meaning of what was really said. I really love and appreciate all the time and effort Michelle Stone has put into her research of original sources. She is amazing and doesn't deserve the extreme hatred she recieves. It is never Christ-like to treat someone the way she had been treated... It's crazy that others would call for her to be kicked out of the Lord's church for just reading and presenting the facts. Please take a closer look at what Joseph really said. The Joseph Smith papers are clarifying so much of what other historians have twisted to fit their narrative.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@jen0740 thank you for this information. I will definitely check it out.

[@littleredhen3218]

I came here to say just what you said. The quote in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith is not completely accurate. The original manuscript tells a different story. You will find written in the margin to the left of this journal entry, "to be revised." in another persons handwriting. It shows the original manuscript and then the doctored version to the right of it on the Joseph Smith Paper's Project. The changes are written is someone else's handwriting! The two versions are direct opposite meanings of each other. This is one of the important smoking guns to the fact that Joseph's teachings and journals and minutes were changed and doctored to "suit the new order of things" when Brigham Young stepped into power. Even George Q Cannon stated AFTER Brigham's death something to the effect that The twelve walked on eggshells around Bro. Brigham. He was very intimidating for the rest of the Quorum. All I am saying is just because things were taught by Brigham Young does not mean the entire quorum was united with many of his doctrines. They disbanded and disavowed many of his teachings immediately after his death, including the Adam/God theory and his blood atonement teachings. It took another 100 years to walk back his black priesthood ban. But it happened! Now it is past time to walk back his polygamy is the only way to the Celestial Kingdom 'doctrine'. Like President Hinckley said "IT IS NOT DOCTRINAL."

[@risefromthedust]

This documentary explains the changes to that statement: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mH3FfYSIbpqtoJosi=lhDBjKb6l2RsQteU

[@jen0740]

This is an excellent documentary by Karen! So well done!! Thank you for posting this!

[@lindsayashton1385]

Exactly! It’s so important that we keep showing the erroneous and altered statements and doctrines. These are harmful traditions and inconsistent with the Book of Mormon and Joseph’s teachings. Clearly, someone altered Joseph’s words to mean the complete opposite of what he meant and did. This needs to be called out. “Millions shall know brother Joseph again.“❤

[@ashleysb3]

I feel strongly that we as a church are still under condemnation because "we" still hold up polygamy as a) having come from God, and/or b) that God could "make it happen again." Until we as a body repent of this false belief--which the Book of Mormon expressly teaches as an abomination and whoredoms--that we are still polluting this Holy Land. Doctrine & Covenants 84 52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. 53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now. 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received- 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written- 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. 59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

[@personalitymanager1580]

Around 45 years ago, after study a lot of church history, I was very troubled about polygamy and poured out my heart to Heavenly Father and pleaded with Him, because it didn't seem right to me as an eternal doctrine, I got a very clear answer that it was a test. Whatever that means. I do not claim revelation but, that answer was very clear to me. Also, a man who searches DNA said that they couldn't find any DNA that could have come from Joseph Smith that would any indication of other wives. As to Sister Stone, to be fair, I don't think we can throw every thing out from her, She obviously has done research. The key is to compare it with other historians so we have other witnesses. Perhaps we all can agree to disagree and go by the Spirit until more evidence is available. I know what my answer was.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@personalitymanager1580 Perfect comment. Thank you!

[@jaredshipp9207]

Except it's not some grey area where it's open to opinion. Those embracing the plural marriage revisionisism aren't just disagreeing with those who don't, they're disagreeing with the Church.

[@sterlingsmith8991]

"Though argument does not create conviction the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish." Something to think about. Continue President Palmer 😊

[@pfoxworth7]

I love your perspective brother Palmer. We don't always agree but I appreciate your authenticity.

[@gwendolynwyne]

I sure am grateful for your measured take on this. What really gets me is how many of my fellow brothers and sisters refuse to consider this topic in another light because of “the implications.” Speaking as a woman, the implications for me are pretty great! I don’t want my husband to marry another woman now or in eternity and don’t believe my ancestors wanted it either. As for the implications for the church, baseline it simply means we need to repent for our wrong belief, so no surprise we’re like every other covenant people that have ever lived. The true implications for the church depend on how fiercely we’re determined to hold onto “the doctrine of many wives and concubines.” If it isn’t part of the doctrine of Jesus Christ and we have the ability to discern that through our faith but we refuse to let it go…well, I shudder to think of the implications of that scenario.

[@katrinabergfineart]

Amen Bro. Palmer!! - we absolutely must allow each other Christ’s grace. We are all still learning and growing. We don’t need to be fixated on how Sister Stone or anyone else is taking their covenant path. Instead we can look inside and ask, “Lord is it I? What lack I yet?" Spiritual Wifery, plurality of wives, concubines etc, these are hard hard topics. Bless you all for being brave enough to come take your life journey at this time. It is not for the faint of heart. Let us continue to study, ponder & pray, to take all things to the Lord. Let us be more like Scott and Sue - humble and open to the Spirit - especially on these uncomfortable topics. My heart has rejoiced with great jubilee as I’ve been given truths these past few years. I’m full of gratitude and my burdens have been lifted. 🙏🙏🙏 (a couple follow-up episodes- Connor Boyack’s video today seemed to address exactly what you were facing in the comment section of your last video Brother Palmer. And Jeremy Hoopes latest video on his “Still Mormon” podcast addresses much of what you shared today - can’t recommend it enough to all - whether you’re seeking for more understanding or even just plain uncomfortable with these subjects, it’s a must watch).

[@noahriding5780]

Well said! When we focus on others and worrying about them getting away with stuff it leads to enmity. Enmity leads to... bad endings.

[@susanjacobson9461]

I agree! I watched the latest Still Mormon podcast & found it fascinating

[@katrinabergfineart]

@@noahriding5780 oh that’s so true - thx for mentioning enmity - I’m totally going to ponder that too!

[@RichardChappell1]

@@noahriding5780 Then why did Alma put a stop to Nehor?

[@RichardChappell1]

@katrinabergfineart - that is a strawman. No one is "fixated on how Sister Stone or anyone else is taking their covenant path." The issue is leading others astray in the process and trying to build followers. There's nothing wrong with having questions and even disucssing them. But it becomes different when that becomes accusing the annointed leadership of corruptiono and conspiracy. I'm no judge in Israel, so have no say in MS's membership status. As a person who cares for others, including MS, I prefer not to see her condemn herself with increasing apostasy. Excommunication is not about punishment, but about helping people make corrections. If that's what we truly believe, then we have to live by that as well.

[@svensorensen7693]

I've noticed that most people who bring it up don't use President Hinkley's full answer: "I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law." It not being legal seems to play quite a bit into why he condemns the practice.

[@jaredshipp9207]

They don't bring it up because the plural marriage revisionists are dishonest across the board.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@svensorensen7693 and that it is not doctrinal! That is what President Hinkley said!

[@RichardChappell1]

@@watcherpalmerlds When our doctrine is to be subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law, it's not really so clear that he was suggesting plural marriage was not doctrinal in and of itself. A case can be made either way. Considering the culture and environment, a legalistic response seems very appropriate to me.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@RichardChappell1That might have some baring if it wasn’t for the fact that the church has made no effort to petition the government to make polygamy legal. If it is doctrine, then surely the church would make every effort to pass legislation for religious freedom to practice it. IMO

[@RichardChappell1]

​@@watcherpalmerlds I would not agree that the Church hasn't. Reynolds vs the US was exactly that. George Reynolds was one of Brigham Young's clerks and volunteered to test the case at the Supreme Court. THat's the only way the existing laws could be countermanded and blocked. There's two ways to pertition the governement - through legislature. That wasn't a viable option. The existing legislation was not compeltely legal in its passage, the the Church did not have anywhere near the support in Congress that would have been needed. The other way is through the courts - to get the laws thrown out. Reynolds with the First Presidency support went to the Supreme Court, who essentially created case law to prevent it from ever becomeing law in the US without substantial change. Even today, with all of the "tolerance" and open ness of marriage as a whole, polygamy is still the bridge too far. At that point there was nowhere else to go. It's similar to the Obergefeld v Hodges case. Once the case was passed, the Church dropped all of it's anti-same sex efforts as it is the law of the land and instead focued inward.

[@littleredhen3218]

Michelle Brady Stone is a saint! She is being struck down because she is on the Lord's errand. She is defending Joseph and Emma Smith's HONOR and working to exonerate them from all the evil that their names are being had for.

[@RichardChappell1]

No one is striking her down. They are questioning her motives and claims. That's not striking her down. Let's be very clear - she is defending J's&E's honor based on a specific narrative she is alleging - that's not the same as reality. It relies on her basic premise that plural marriage is evil, which then strikes down (using your language) all of the prophets since, as well as the Church.

[@walkingdad506]

Brother Palmer, I learn something new or at least I get to see a different perspective on something I may not have even thought of before by listening to you. Keep doing your KZbin channel I look for it every chance I get and find it enlightening. I am glad the Lord as seen fit to encourage you to let people know what your perspective may be, after all isn't that what he wants us to do learn and pass that knowledge onto others. I may never be called to be Mission President, but you were, and your perspective means a lot to me. I was called years ago to be Temple Ordinance worker what I saw take place there would also help others that had not been called to such a calling. We need to get away from disagreement and focus on understanding what the Lord is really trying to teach us.

[@heathersorenson759]

I wonder how the garmet will be monitored to only people that live in really hot countries. There are areas like Yuma, Arizona and places in California that reach 120 or hotter. Will people have to prove they live in that area, to show id in order for only those people to get those shorter sleeves, etc. It's just a curious thought.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Unless the Lord directs otherwise". That was added after Joseph was murdered.

[@g71816]

Jacob 2:27,30 was there in the original 1830 BOM.

[@gwendolynwyne]

@@g71816 Check the rest of Jacob chapter 2 to see what “things” the Lord cautions against hearkening to (v14, 23, 24, and 34). Throughout time this tendency of the natural man toward pride and polygamy has been so pervasive that, if the Lord wants a covenant people, He must command them to depart wicked environments and have one wife/no concubines, otherwise men hearken to the abominations of David and Solomon.

[@beoneB1]

If things are going where God wants it go He wouldn’t have to do this: D&C 85:7 “And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God…”

[@davden965]

Michelle S. wasn’t, isn’t, and never will be my prophet. And as long as she looks for faults in the Lords anointed, will never speak for the Lord.

[@kristinpruett7733]

I just don't get why people are so set on keeping Joseph a polygamist when he may not be the way we are taught. Part of me thinks that the opposition is trying to keep that in place but what do I know.

[@moneymcr]

@@kristinpruett7733 It’s not about being set on keeping Joseph Smith a polygamist. It’s about the ramifications on claiming polygamy was the concept of Brigham Young. It’s not like polygamy is a minor thing nor on par with the limitations on who could hold the priesthood. It’s like the biggest thing. If not of God, doesn’t that mean Brigham and many many others manipulated young women into extramarital affairs at the least and more like outright sexual deviancy or rape? Please explain why God did not strike them down along with all the proceeding prophets who have lied about it. Is there some less abhorrent alternative explanation that I’m missing?

[@Triumphantday]

​​​@@moneymcr that's a part of life. We are going to have to deal with the ramifications that Brigham Young instituted polygamy. Because the Joseph Smith papers are showing that he in fact did. It's just a part of life & we're going to have to deal with it. Nothing is perfect in this life if you haven't noticed.

[@conkjavier]

Remember all the members who saw Brigham take on the "mantel" of Joseph? It was a spiritual witness to them that he would be the next leader. Condemning Brigham is to our detriment. The kingdom of God is on the earth, it has grown step by step, and it is time to stop talking about polygamy-- it is time to look forward to our grand millennial mission!

[@oshemer5066]

I think one reason the Lord revealed plural marriage to Joseph is to try the Saints’ faith. Amazingly, it still serves that purpose even a hundred years after not practicing it based on the conversation here. I do not get the logical reasoning of admitting that Joseph was sealed to more than one woman, but didn’t practice plural marriage. I get that whether he consummated those marriages is disputable, but he was sealed to more than one wife. I also find it hard to accept that Brigham Young and the prophets after him made up polygamy so they could practice it, contrary to what Joseph Smith taught. This is a big issue. I don’t put full faith in the Brethren and believe they can make mistakes. I think a lot of mistakes were made during the Covid lockdown. But to be wrong about something as big as plural marriage is too much of a stretch.

[@millenialhymns]

Perhaps it helps to understand that the first early saints joining the church were from an area of Cochranites. These people had followed John Cochran's teaching that marriage wasn't necessary and that it was made up by man but not a commandment of God. These early saints had practiced spiritual wifery with women they were not married to. Brigham Young spent a whole year by himself in this Cochranite area converting many to the church, but also converting himself to the idea of many wives. He also went on a mission to England where many were considering such things in their societies and were ready to practice it when they joined the saints. They were told that the only way to receive exaltation in the temple was to marry one of the prominent men who held the authority to this "secret priesthood." However later this priesthood was disbanded, not because the government wanted them to buy because the Lord wanted them to. It was not of HIM! Or his covenant. Once the church members gave it up the church prospered. But before that time there was much poverty, not enough women for single men to marry, and disease going around. It was a terrible stumbling block to the saints as described by Joseph F Smith in his printed clause of 1911 (I believe). Can you see what happened and how the Lord corrected this thing? Thank goodness!!

[@Msp-o5w]

We have enough modern day problems to wrestle with, we should leave the issues and sins of the past to the past. I have a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith and the succession to present. We don’t need to hold the past hostage to our scrutiny, I say we leave it to God. I think we can study and scratch our heads about this stuff but we can’t reconcile it with our day.

[@capybara39419]

Amen

[@beckywright7906]

Wow, I’m sorry people have made rude comments. Makes me sad for you! ❤well hang in there and keep doing what you do. We agree with you wholeheartedly.

[@beoneB1]

The Holy Church of God is polluted from within! “38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?” Mormon 8:28-41

[@danielroehm2822]

WP! I really appreciate your opinion on this. I think sister Stone's arguments were solid too...and I think we should question things we see that don't make sense, even in the church. I don't know what's true here with Joseph Smith and polygamy. I see other, frantic responses here and I disagree with being so critical of an honest and logical question about previous church practices. I think, at least, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that Joseph was intimate with other wives... I'm going to look a little more closely at sister Stone's arguments and see which way logic and history take me. Thanks for your honesty on this subject.

[@DestroyerOfWords]

The older I get the more I realize the difference between truth and facts. People can arrange facts in any way that suits their personal beliefs. Occasionally that intersects with truth. But truth is a Celestial reality while facts are Telestial and confined to this of the lowest of God's kingdoms. We can argue about almost any topic and present our facts that promote our beliefs while the truth above both. Reading the Book of Mormon everyday will acquaint people with the truth more than anything. That is where Pres. Nelson's warning about contention comes in. Does it really matter how another person sees these records and events? It's vital to listen to all forms of debate, but in the end you must let the Spirit teach you how to manage your own life. Individual agency is what we've been sent here to learn.

[@BESLsmile]

In the early days of the practice of plural marriage, men and women were called. The man did not choose or woo new wives. Later, practitioners took it upon themselves to find younger wives. I believe Jacob 2:30 could be combined with Elder Oaks teaching of temporary and permanent doctrine to help gain some understanding of this practice. My grandfather wrote that growing up as a child in polygamy was the best childhood you could ask for, but it was absolute Hell for the adults living it. His mother was the 3rd or lowest wife.

[@lindydavis9256]

My testimony of the gospel is stronger knowing Joseph did not practice polygamy. It has always broke my heart knowing my pioneer ancestors had to endure sharing their husband. It didn’t seem right or from God. Many things have had to be worked out in the church over the years. The church is still true and moving forward. I know present Nelson is our prophet, he is also not perfect. Someday we will know why our faith was tested with policies in the church. It’s still the best and truest church on the earth! I learned a lot from the channel Still Mormon! I also watched a great video Michelle’s friend made “Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy”

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@lindydavis9256 I really don’t know the Still Mormon channel, but I agree with everything you said concerning Joseph and polygamy. Thank you. You stated it better than I did.

[@BrianTerrill]

@lindydavis9256 if your testimony requires Joseph was not a polygamist, is it a testimony then?

[@reppi8742]

@@BrianTerrillWell, yes it does. Why? Because Joseph said he was monogamous and if he lied about that then how can one belief he told the truth about the first vision or anything else? That's how it works in a court of law. One lie and none of the rest of your testimony needs to be believed.

[@lindydavis9256]

@@BrianTerrill Polygamy was just one part of the church teachings that never felt correct to me. I studied for myself. I read a lot and was willing to look at both sides. It doesn’t change much for my own personal life, I just know I can be active in the church and also know church history is messy. I’m grateful lots of evidence has surfaced recently that allows us to see for ourselves what happened in the early days of the church. I’m honestly just so excited for what is going on today and my own relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

[@lindydavis9256]

@@watcherpalmerlds I watched Still Mormon because you talked about it a few months ago… he posted 3 more episodes.

[@crazymakerpleasestop]

Excellent topic. We are so judgmental! We have our reasons to question, and we are suppose to question last I heard. But if you do, look out!. I also question 132.... When polygamy comes in, loves goes out. Read Carol Lynne Pearson's book, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. She also did a youtube about her book. Also, go online to read Joseph Smith papers. Not the summaries or compilations...but the real deal. "Doctrine." So much of it has changed since I was baptized in the 1970's. The church only changes when there is social pressure and then the changes are labeled as revelation? I feel bad for young women who lose husbands young and want to remarry. Think about that. Men want to marry a woman who hasn't already been sealed. It's messed up. We need that 'doctrine' changed. Is it any wonder Nelson and Oaks remarried women who had never been married?? My opinion.

[@franciegwin]

I think we as a people are very prideful as I loved Elder Bednar's that on pride at conference. It's subscribe to think about that each of need to look at ourselves.

[@moneymcr]

So… just doubling down. Last I checked, neither Tucker nor Shawn most Russel are claiming to be members of the church while inferring that Brigham was a sexual predator and all the prophets since are complicit in his evil practices. Maybe I missed that episode. Your recent instinct is to criticize the apostles because, among many things, they don’t speak often enough about abortion yet, heaven forbid, one suggests you might be critical of something Michelle has said as she leads people away from Christ’s church.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@moneymcr I don’t believe I said that Brigham was a sexual predator. I did say that my opinion is that Joseph was not a sexual predator and did not have multiple wives and did not have sex with multiple woman. I have stated many times that my conviction is that priesthood authority and keys were passed from Joseph to Brigham, on down to President Nelson. I do believe a correction was needed in both the access to the temple for all worthy people regardless of their race, and the practice of polygamy. The Lord took care of both. Neither are allowed and should not be practiced.

[@moneymcr]

@@watcherpalmerlds My apologies for not being more clear. I did not mean to say you said that about Brigham, rather, that is what Michelle says. My criticism is that you fail to recognize that and won’t qualify your compliments of her, giving credence to her attacks on the prophets of God. Then your added critiques regarding the apostles lack of talks on abortion. I’ve heard many such things from you. I don’t understand the defense of Michelle and the opposite for the Lord’s appointed. I’m not talking about polygamy. I’m completely fine with you thinking polygamy was an incorrect practice though I may disagree with you on that point. Again, it’s who you adopted to endorse your point of view.

[@misfyresalot]

I'm with you. Joseph may have plural marriages but did not engage in polygamy

[@RichardChappell1]

Plural marriage is a form of polygamy.

[@jarenthompson915]

There's a difference. "Polygamy" is the gentile debased view, and is not the same thing as "The New and Everlasting Covenant".

[@lindsayashton1385]

⁠@@jarenthompson915The terms were used interchangeably by Brigham. The official doctrine in D&C 132 is the doctrine of midwives and concubines. The book Mormon condemns that. Joseph said he did not practice it in any form. So did Emma. So did Hyram. Just be aware that you’re narrative is calling them all liars.

[@jarenthompson915]

@@lindsayashton1385 there's plenty of evidence that Joseph did, the council of 50 did, and apostles under Joseph did. You can't cherry pick evidence. In the meantime, I'm quite comfortable with plural marriage, it makes sense on multiple levels, including the celestial aspect. I'm also comfortable with the modern application of not practicing it as well.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@jarenthompson915 Read the statement again. All pulral marriage is polygamy, but not all polygamy is plural marriage. Polygamy can describe any myriad of conventions, such as the Oneida practice, or the modern secular polygamists - but it also covers plural marriage. All Bandaids are bandages, but not all bandages are baindaids. And it's perfectly legitimatee for someone to say I'm using a Baindaid, not a bandage when trying to imply specifics.

[@Jan-wd1is]

What really bothers me is how these questions can affect testimonies. This is one of the things that helped my son and his wife leave the church. He is now trying to understand more and i am really glad there is another well thought out position with proofs in historical records.

[@stanleyliddle4527]

Just remember that the Saviour came through a Polygamous line from David.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

That is because he had to descend below us all. He also came through the harlot Rahab. Christ was also descendant from the Moabite woman Ruth. The Moabites began from a relationship between Lot and one of his daughters. So I do remember. Not sure what your point is.

[@millenialhymns]

In the Book of Mormon the Lord condemned David's actions.

[@susanjacobson9461]

What were the fruits of polygamy? Heartache and heartbreak. THANK YOU for your insights on the manifesto! I am ALWAYS excited to see you have posted a new video! Someday I hope to know you and Miss Sue better. Agree with your thoughts on Tucker, Russel brand, Alex jones, Shawn …(the former navy Seal). So refreshing to know I am not completely alone and “out there” In what I feel and what resonates with me. Keep up the good work!!

[@BrianTerrill]

@susanjacobson9461 I look at it differently. Under the leadership of Brigham Young, who's was absolutely faithful to it, the church prospered and was protected. Take, for example, when James Buchanan started the Mormon War, Buchanan was such a fool that the whole nation fell apart after that, and America ended up in a Civil War.

[@RichardChappell1]

@susanjacobson9461 - Yeah, that's not true. There's has been a lot of joy, families grow and develop, and a lot of really incredible people who have done incredible work for the Lord as a result of the Church's plural marriage.

[@susanjacobson9461]

@@RichardChappell1 that’s not the polygamy stories I have read. Did you read the comment from someone whose grandparents practiced this principle-the kids had a great time and for the adults it was horrid. these people that you’re speaking of would’ve done great things without the polygamy, maybe even greater because they didn’t have the heartbreak.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@susanjacobson9461 Just my own family journals of the individuals invovled - including the wives and husbands. In one case, the husband came home from a conference and didn't tell his wife. She got upset that he was keeping something from her and needled it out of him (her words). Then she selected his following wives. Thos people would not have existed were it not for polygamy. What you are doing is projecting. You are taking your emotions and putting them on others as if you have the right to speak for everyone invovled.

[@jonterry9843]

​@@RichardChappell1 Brother Richard, Jacob (2-3) gives a pretty detailed idea of what happens to family relationships via polygamy. Was he projecting also?

[@jeffem55]

Scott I listened to her video with Greg today after I heard your podcast. I liked what she had to say. Well researched and read. People have a hard time with the concept with “ideas don’t hurt us” and we need to deal with it better ESPECIALLY when we disagree on issues. Listening, understanding, and being friendly is the goal. People feel threatened by different ideas? I liked sister stone as well her ideas whether I agree or not. Maturity people!!!

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

Joseph Smiths journal was changed with that quote you just gave. I would send you the documents showing how it was changed, where do you want me to send it?

[@watcherpalmerlds]

[e-mail]

[@douglasnielson8250]

Jesus set the perfect example. He didn’t have 40 wives. I follow the Lord.

[@wheels636]

@@douglasnielson8250 no just two.

[@RichardChappell1]

Show in the scriptures where He had any wives. Are you suggesting that people should not get married and have families?

[@wheels636]

@RichardChappell1 Early Lds apostles talked about Jesus being married. Modern research of the dead sea scrolls have found fragments saying he was also. But you can be sure the scribes who practiced that monks should not be married scrubbed all scriptural evidence because it went against their lifestyle.

[@returnedfrompanama]

He actually could have.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@wheels636 In other words, you can't...

[@11of13]

Jospeh’s inclusion of “unless the Lord directs” is completely consistent with how polygamy was practiced in the Nauvoo period. And it lines up with Jacob’s statement. Only those who were authorized, or “called,” entered into that practice. If anyone entered it without permission was summarily expelled.

[@jonterry9843]

Except the Lord NEVER directed polygamy to be practiced AT ALL during ANY time of Joseph Smith's life. Joseph made this COMPLETELY clear by ALWAYS denying he EVER preached or practiced Polygamy (in any form) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma. And ALL evidence supports his declaration. Can't we just say: "I believe you, Brother Joseph"?

[@lindsayashton1385]

The words “unless the Lord directs” was actually added to his journal during all of Brigham’s history editing years. BY admitted to editing things and I’ve seen the page where he had things crossed out and written in. That phrase was added later. It brings me great comfort to know that Joseph never actually said or wrote those words. EVERYTHING he said and did regarding polygamy was to fight it. same with Emma & Hyrum. Our church paints him as “lying for the Lord,“ but we can choose to simply believe him- just like we believed him when he said he saw God, the Father and his son Jesus Christ. He was no liar.🙏

[@tennisgirl57]

@@lindsayashton1385 Amen!

[@g71816]

@11of13, so well said. It is right there in a plain reading of Jacob 2 : 27,30

[@millenialhymns]

I wish the saints would understand, polygamy was introduced in public by Orson Pratt. HE also is the one that broke the Book of Mormon into verses, changed the punctuation in Jacob 2, and is the one who changed the Doctrine and Covenants in 1877 and 1879 (or whatever the years were when the changes took place). I wish the saints would understand the only living witness to D&C 132 was William Clayton, one of the first to secretly practice polygamy behind Joseph's back. I wish the saints would understand that God made his marriage expectation and covenant clear from the beginning, stating them in Doctrine and Covenants 42, his clause on marriage, even the Family Proclamation. I wish the saints would understand it takes two things for a leader to continue being President -The keys of the priesthood AND the consent of the people. If both are met that is the person whether righteous or wicked that continue the leadership position -Brigham is the only choice that had both at the time, but he is a man and has agency to use his keys righteously. I wish the saints would understand God is in charge, but will teach his children the truth sometimes through experience (remember the wrong for in the road talk by Elder Holland). And please! Can the saints understand that Heavenly Father is pure and takes this subject seriously and condemned the church UNTIL we remember the Covenants given in the Book of Mormon, which Joseph called "the anointed one!" The saints in the Book of Mormon were commanded to have one man one woman only, and the Lord has commanded HIS church today to do the same. This is the truth!! Look at Brigham and all the things that needed changing by later prophets. Look at his wives and when he married them some of them 5 in a day! He was not living even the things mentioned in D&C 132 (if correct). However with all that, the Lord is greater and stronger. He can redeem his people -those who love HIM and his ways with all their hearts. This is the church he placed his covenant with. We just need to focus on moving forward, not looking backward, only to realize we should not go down that road again.

[@l7846]

Appreciate all you wrote... but 😖... for the love of Mike, Use standard paragraphs!!! More will read the whole thing! ❤

[@sharoncampbell4904]

Very interesting! I believe truth can stand up to scrutiny, and it is good for us to do our research.

[@RichardChappell1]

Provided it is truth as opposed to conjecture.

[@sharoncampbell4904]

@@RichardChappell1 I said TRUTH, which is never conjecture. And not always easy to find.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@sharoncampbell4904 Not only not easy to find, but people more often than not conflate their thoughts, feelings and interpretation with TRUTH. In more cases than not, indentifying TRUTH is not even an option, just models that seem to approximate what we seem to experience. That applies to fatih as well as the sciences. That's why Alma tells us in Ch 32 to experiment on the word. We should continually search, but we should understand the limitations of our research and sources.

[@MsLT62]

I too believe Joseph. He said he never practiced polygamy and I believe him and I also believe the Book of Mormon. Michelle Stone can believe many things that I don't believe, but I have no problem saying that we both believe Joseph never practiced polygamy. There is a women named Karen Hyatt that put together a great presentation on her channel (by the same name) with lots of evidence that Joseph didn't practice it. The video is "Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy"... check it out.

[@3848sdgriwb]

This Michelle stone lady is the first major thing I’ve disagreed with you on …I feel as though she is looking for facts to make her comfortable with Joseph at the expense of Brigham…I think she believes crazy things about Brigham. She makes me pretty uncomfortable but the good news is I’m not a crazy person and it doesn’t mean that I won’t stop listening to you or loving 95 percent of your takes. People should be able to disagree and not auto vilify

[@bearidler5926]

I believe that one's level understanding of these D&C Teachings is what determines... thank GOODNESS God KNOWS,also with Sister Snow. Thanks for sharing and presenting these different Topics. YOU GO GUY 💫

[@millenialhymns]

The only hymn listed under marriage in the first hymnbook compiled by Emma Smith was this song. It describes the Lord's plan for his saints perfectly. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jprVZJ6uhdJ6pMksi=gW_6l6H4X7AcCcqD

[@ShellLeighSays]

When Michelle Stone went on the anti channel and proudly exclaimed she had not been to the Temple in three years and basically didn’t support the brethren, I tapped out. I wish her well on her “Faith journey”.

[@establishingzion688]

This is what Brian Hales meant when members take up in their minds that they "know" better than the brethren regarding this topic. As soon as you leave the brethren, you get on the road to apostasy. And we're watching Michelle Stone running down that road, right out of the Church.

[@erikpeoples8041]

You need to take information to the Lord not yourself, not President Nelson or anyone else. Nephi's father was a prophet but Nephi knew that he was to seek an answer from God and not from his father even though he knew his Dad was a prophet. Church members are lazy learners.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@ShellLeighSays I do believe Sister Stone said that she had retuned to the temple. She revealed this on Greg’s show. Was I wrong in hearing this? Are any of you thrilled beyond measure if this is true?

[@susanjacobson9461]

@@watcherpalmerldsyes!

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

The reason she wasn't attending for 3 year is because of masks. She had trauma when her baby died in 2020 and another in 2021. The temple told her she wouldn't be required to wear a mask to attend her sister's sealing. But when she got there they were requiring everyone to wear a mask. It brought back all the trauma of loosing her child and the mask issue that was involved in the death of her baby... have some compassion. You have no idea what she's been through!

[@beoneB1]

This is in the Introduction of the Book of Mormon “…Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days…” (Does that mean Joseph Smith is Still His revelator and prophet in these last days?)

[@KathyGraham-f7c]

Good episode! Made thankful once again I am only in charge of me. I can love others even though we disagree on things. The Lord will judge me and everyone else.😊❤

[@dishaw2709]

Greg Madson felt Stone had done study of the subject. But He disagreed with her. I watched that show. It was interesting Greg then brought opposition was even greater because he does not take a side on JS . He puts out the that show you need to watch. Facts for members to study and come to their own understanding. You have come back to this honorable to give a great response. Thank you appreciate your on the topic.

[@dishaw2709]

Again comments are , drives me crazy.

[@dishaw2709]

again.

[@darkwinterprepper8495]

I am now more confused about polygamy than ever. BUT, My testimony does not depend on figuring it out. The fruits of the gospel are good. I love the temple and the book of Mormon. I believe Joseph Smith was Seer and revelator and prophet. That’s what I hang my testimony on.

[@bhcfam]

Issac = Chiasmatic. Is very worth consideration. Great point Scott

[@douglasnielson8250]

As soon as you discuss religion or politics people’s feathers get ruffled. It’s always been that way. As far as Joseph Smith and polygamy goes it’s all about what did those sealings really mean. I guess nobody knows for sure. I really don’t think Joseph Smith should be called a polygamist because the evidence is too thin.

[@FaveWasteOfTime]

polygamy - whether Joseph condoned or practiced it - seems to THE hot topic right now. So many people who have opinions on both sides of the question and so many testimonies seems to rest on who is correct. It seems that it is the make or break thing right now to whether some folks are going to stay in the church or depart.

[@paulamoore8427]

Weeding out the tares…….

[@BrianTerrill]

We live in a world where I guy can sleep around with all sorts of women and be celebrated, or he could like every celebrity to do the marriage divorce ritual of Hollywood or marry someone of the same gender but polygamy is bad. I go back to the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, and there God made friends with the polygamist but smoked out two cities living the alphabet soup.

[@HeartlandBazaar]

It isn't the testimonies that are resting on who is correct! It is how people are TREATED by those IN THE CHURCH for presenting EVIDENCE that questions a long-standing 'tradition'..... Perhaps THAT is the TEST... How we treat those who have questions. Perhaps it is unChristlike members who drive them from the sanctuary - even through excommunication. I personally know a man who was ex'd for presenting some of the same evidence. He was a Bishop at the time. However, his testimony of CHRIST, Joseph, and the Book of Mormon have never been stronger.

[@BrianTerrill]

@HeartlandBazaar for me, the experience is the opposite, I have felt that the polygamy deniers for a long time have hijacked the narrative at church, and because polygamy challenged the warm fuzziness they relied on for their testimonies, they'd try to shut up discussions about it. The fruit of that was that many of their children found out about Joseph Smith being a polygamist in their 20s and fell away from the church over it.

[@janicajohnson9727]

There are third world cultures that necessitate a slip under a dress as they don’t have toilets or paper, etc. not to be graphic….. Africa, India, and others. You have helped me to love a deeper dive into scriptures, the Jewish culture and word meanings. I really love your materials. You don’t need to apologize for your own thoughts.

[@60hershe]

Could Jacob have had Joseph if he was not into plural wives. This not talked about when this subject come up by any that I have heard of and was it studied by those people searching this subject as well. Would there be twelve tribes or Ephraim

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@60hershe That is a great question. Jacob/Israel is one that did not have just one covenant wife. I have had the same question. Thanks you

[@johnkirchner107]

I don’t know why everyone uses Jacob to bash polygamy. The Nephites were a broken off branch of Isreal. The keys “if active” were in Jerusalem and definitely with Peter. They did not have the keys to live the doctrine of polygamy.

[@paulamoore8427]

The Lord often asks us to do things we do not understand. et don’t eat the fruit, kill Laben, kill Able, will we do all things the Lord asks of us….. in my own life I’ve been through things that the Lord will not relieve from me It’s Faith in God. Yes Abrahamic tests.

[@wteg4356]

I don’t believe the Lord asked anyone to kill Able.

[@paulamoore8427]

@@wteg4356 ohh you’re right. I misspoke I meant Isaac . Thx for the correction. Not what I meant.

[@LDS_Truth_Seeker]

Polygamy was culture not commandment. Sister stone did well in her interview with Greg.

[@claudiaclaverie991]

I expected you to say, “are you picking up while I’m laying down”

[@katmmcdonald]

I don’t really care what her stance on polygamy is. My concern is how much she detests our leaders, especially President Oaks. She has gone on several anti podcasts and they all laugh and bash on bishops, stake presidents, and the prophet/apostles. She’s not for me, her fruit is bitter. She’s also an advocate for lgbtq lds issues. Love is love.

[@user-ch9jo8mi7m]

The only thing that I have with Michelle Stone is not what she sincerely believes. I don't judge her for that and really don't care, but, what is her end game in promoting her view point? I can see if she is able to prove, at least in her own ming, that Brigham Young implimented polygamy, wrongly, then she can use that as a spring board to discredit all of the prophets after him. . This is what the detractors are trying to do by attacking the foundations of the church to discredit the current organization and claims of authority of our church. I don't care if Brigham Young was right or wrong in this respect. What I do know is that he held the priesthood keys which have been handed down until our current prpophet which makes our cause true. People expect the early church leaders to be infallable and sinless and use that as a blunt object to beat down the church.

[@HeartlandBazaar]

TRUTH is the end game. Joseph said " I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all". TRUTH.

[@littleredhen3218]

She has no intention of discrediting all the prophets after him. That was the devils plan in instigating polygamy in the church. Her end game is to raise awareness among the members of the Church that polygamy was not started with Joseph Smith and that polygamy is not of God at all. Her end game is what God and Joseph and Emma and Hyrum would like to see, the end of polygamy as a 'doctrine' of the church. It is not doctrinal. It is an abomination just like the Lord says it is.

[@Chet-hv4po]

Br. Palmer, Thank you for this discussion. It raises questions that need to be asked and eventually resolved. At about the 11 min mark you suggest that, whatever the current marriage practice is, might just be considered policy, rather than doctrine. It should be noted that Section 132:1 specifically calls it the principle and doctrine … (and lists Isaac among those who are justified in practicing it, clearly implying that he needed to be justified for practicing it.) There are many other glaring contradictions, both doctrinal and logical throughout the Section. So, there’s a whole lotta ‘splainin’ to do. If you ever want to learn a little more about the issue, I recommend a recent KZbin episode by Gwendolyn Wynn, called Our Best Story, and another by Karen Hyatt called Woe Unto You, Scribes, or anything by Jeremy Hoop, on Still Mormon. These will give you a lot of essential information relatively quickly.

[@lindamoses3697]

❤The garment change for hot climates is much needed. After two ambulance rides and near death on the Mojave desert, this can save lives and health.

[@RichardChappell1]

I have no real opinion on the Church's decision here - it's the Church's decision. But I can't for the life of me see dropping the 2" of cap sleeve is going to be the difference between life or death. And this is coming from someone living in one of the hotest inhabited places on earth. I guarantee that your garments were not the cause of your ambulance rides.

[@robynmills5534]

@@RichardChappell1I’m with you on this.

[@thunderandrain09]

I will continue to believe that section 132- as it is still in the D&C and the church continues to print this section as part of our scriptures. If at some point the church declares ( like Michelle declares) that it is not doctrine and is removed from our scriptures- and we should all remove that section from our paper copy and burn it- then I will no longer believe it came from God. Until then, I feel as a believing member with a temple recommend I need to sustain my priesthood leaders. Especially the 15 prophets, seers and revelators in SLC.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@thunderandrain09 I agree. The members of the church should have obeyed Section 109 in the 1835 edition. The edition was in use until the late 1870’s.

[@littleredhen3218]

You can still sustain the Brethren without sustaining false doctrine. Think. Use your critical thinking skills God gave you. Do not be deceived by the arm of flesh. The Q15 are good men. They will also come to a knowledge of the truth and recognize where the ship went off course just a bit. The temple changes are such a great example of the course corrections that are happening in recent months. When you know better, you do better.

[@thunderandrain09]

@@littleredhen3218 👎 nope. That’s what prophets are put there for. Our job is to sustain them.

[@thunderandrain09]

@@watcherpalmerlds yes, as I would have sustained the old version of 109 - until it was removed whereupon I would no longer. That’s what prophets are for. Our job is to sustain them.

[@littleredhen3218]

@@thunderandrain09 Only in righteousness. We are not required by God to sustain them when they step off course or teach a false doctrine. We can love them and pray for them but we don not have to walk off a cliff after them. "Safe and effective" is the perfect example of this. You don't get a jab because they suggest that you do particularly when the Lord has told you not to.

[@BrianTerrill]

Section 109 of the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants was not presented to the church as a revelation. Oliver Cowdery wrote it.

[@ThomasMecham-x5c]

If this is true (and I have no reason to dispute this factual assertion), then it is not necessary to address former section 109 in determining whether section 132 represents the revealed word of God.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

@@BrianTerrill The question is , why would Joseph allow that revelation the whole time he was President and Prophet of the church?

[@BrianTerrill]

@watcherpalmerlds probably because it reflected the public position of the church on those matter and polygamy outside of the New and Everlasting Covenant, was an abomination. Even when Section 132 was revealed, even the wording made it clear it wasn't meant to be revealed to everyone: "3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same" (Doctrine and Covenants 132:3) But the 1835 Section 101 should be understood as being what it is, a statement on civil marriage and civil matters, not a revelation because these are the words to be used in the marriage ceremony according to that Section: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives.” Not time and eternity but "during your lives" I still think the ideas contained in Section 101 1835 D&C are good for considering in regards to how civil marriages should be treated in the church. I've been to two civil marriages my entire life in the chapel. One was my wedding.. I had family members who swore they would never set foot in a Mormon church show up and enjoy it. I think doing it that way would relieve a lot of bad feelings people have who can't see their families get married because they can't enter the temple and personality I think if we want to be an effective missionary church we have to consider that.

[@jonterry9843]

FAIL. (Try again, Brother Brian. Not even you believe the silly words you just wrote.)

[@BrianTerrill]

@jonterry9843 I would respond by saying I do except I can't see my words they have disappeared. But yes, Section 132cwas not meant to be a public revelation for the whole church anymore than our temple endowments are meant to be public

[@katherineshiver9428]

Something to listen to while I cook dinner - thanks ❤

[@charmainecarter2669]

What about Abraham’s wife giving her handmaiden to him to produce seed, I always felt that God had ask her to do that. Was that a test in obedience? I guess I have never stressed over the plural marriage stuff, but I didn’t live in a time when it was being practiced. I have trust and faith that we will have our answers after this life or during the millennium. I think many sisters become very passionate over the plural marriage stuff. Thanks for the video. 😊

[@noahriding5780]

People won't understand polygamy in this life mostly. Some will. Many won't. You won't understand polygamy well because to clearly understand it you have to understand how people will live in a Celestial Zion system. And how that kind of setting would be free of enmity, free of hate, free of selfishness. And how we'd live where everyone could have a future, planned and given to them based on worthiness and not on a 'captivity and predator guided' system. Well we live in a captivity system now that has predatorism guiding everything, and has a lot of enmity, and competition that isn't spiritually justified. People still base their decision making as members on enmity and having more stuff instead of based on what the holy ghost wants them to do. So their understanding is flawed... though still in the works. Free enmity of your mind, or you will never understand ANY gospel principle first. This is what it means to 'pray with REAL INTENT'. (REAL Intent means you cannot have enmity and opposing God first before you try to understand it.) Therefore, we're not going to be able to get a consensus and good feeling, with a polygamy discussion. Because you can't. First, the members would have to understand how they have to take care of each other and their poor, and how to get free of a beast led predator economy that practices captivity, ... which we mostly still live in. We still haven't figured out the small stuff... therefore we're not going to be able to handle bigger things like how a Celestial family lives if we're not living Celestially now. (This is also why we need to get rid of social class ranking in the church and elitism.)

[@actuallywhatimeant2583]

And the early church was very Zion-minded. So much context gets lost as we try to understand it today.

[@jonterry9843]

Yeah, Noah, people like Jacob (ch. 2-3) seem so ignorant of the commie claptrap you just dropped on your poor readers--when they (Jacob and the Lord, whom he quotes) make clear that on this planet polygamy ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be an "abomination and a whoredom" that always destroys family relationships. Always. But I'm sure people like King Noah used your exact words when they established polygamy ....

[@jonterry9843]

I guess you believe, Comrade Noah, that people like Jacob (ch. 2-3) were just "too ignorant" of the commie claptrap you just dropped on your poor readers, when they condemned polygamy as ALWAYS an abomination on this planet, which ALWAYS destroys family relationships. Though I'm sure King Noah and his buddies used the exact words of your "Polygamist Manifesto" when they established "institutional adultery" (aka polygamy) --and then also confiscated half of everyone's income to help maintain their "oligarchic utopia" for the chosen elites (as you committed socialists always do . .. (Sorry, Noah, if this comment sounds harsh, but the way you just blended Marxist blather with Gospel ideas almost gave me the tremors ... All the best, amigo ... ).

[@karlenecarper3187]

We members need to be more cautious about the criticism we throw at other people because of sins they may have committed in their past. We don't want to be guilty of the sin of persecuting our fellow human beings. We believe in Christ and in his absolute ability to redeem all of his children.

[@omacookie]

So I’ve always learned that Joseph Smith received the polygamy revelation and tried to practice it to the best of his understanding. I don’t know and I don’t care about sex. The revelation was really for the Saints as they left civilization and tried to build Zion in the wild, Wild West!There were so many widows and young women would not have been taken care of and had children without it. Like it says in the scriptures …to build up seed! This does not seem difficult to me and I am done with this topic.

[@tennisgirl57]

Why wasn't Noah or Adam told to practice polygamy weren't they supposed to raise up seed? Also look at the census in Utah back when the pioneers came there were actually more men than women. That is one of the reasons they had to marry the girls younger and younger because there weren't enough women to go around.

[@Jan-wd1is]

Have you listened the the follow up Qwic show where he had an opposing view that Joseph did practice plural marriage. The guest has done a lot of research over many years and I learned so much from the record he found.

[@edwardmccall2000]

This is the most deceptive and effective attack on the athority of the Church ever brought forth. If polygamy was a lie, it would be hard for any intelligent person to embrace our athority as a Church. This is painful to watch.

[@elliotmorrell425]

Agreed. It is honestly terrifying

[@jaredshipp9207]

Exactly. She may be a spiritual cancer but at least Michelle Stone is clear about what she thinks. This guy keeps talking out of both sides of his mouth, saying much the same as she, just more subtle about it.

[@southwestrunner6384]

@@edwardmccall2000 - and yet, here we have a (formerly) trusted and respected voice (Palmer) defending a straight-up apostate who teaches that the brethren are in error

[@southwestrunner6384]

@@jaredshipp9207 - “even the very elect”…

[@wheels636]

​@southwestrunner6384 thankfully we all have our opinions. Brother Palmer is entitled to his opinions also. Theres a cancer in the church in that some members want to be accepted of the world so much that they will try and say what happened in the past church really didn’t happen that way. We won't know for a while but until then I choose to believe Brigham Young was just as much a true prophet of God as much as Joseph Smith was.

[@jarenthompson915]

It's very important to point out that 'polygamy' and 'the new and everlasting covenant' are different, subtle differences, but those subtleties are extremely important. To do an analogy, there is a subtle difference between killing and murder; Captain Moroni never murdered, but he was a renowned killer.

[@jonterry9843]

???

[@BuffaloChipp]

Thanks for the video! Very hot topic right now. I wish Greg Madsen and Jacob Hanson would be more open minded. I don’t know how they do the mental gymnastics to justify polygamy and with all the new information coming out it’s pretty dang obvious this was a Brigham Young invention.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

You also need to look at the history of what you read that Joseph said on October 5th, what you read is the edited version... maybe you'll get into that, still listening ❤

[@franciegwin]

I love Sster Stone!. Her facts are spot on!

[@lorraineorlando7424]

Couldn’t care less about who practices polygamy and who didn’t practice it…….has nothing to do with my knowledge of the TRUTH…..whatever it is…..get over it folks! Is the Book of Mormon true and the word of God??? If the Spirit has testified to you that it is, then……Joseph was a prophet and whether or not he practice polygamy is no concern of mine. Just sayin🤷‍♀️

[@InsideKarensHead]

we in Wyoming have heard NOTHING, Zip, Zero, Nada regarding any new kind of garment for the women. Hubby and I were just at a training at the Casper Temple to be new Temple workers there (having served in Billings for 15 months already) and heard nothing new on the camp. We've been trained while serving in the Billings Temple on how to handle issues regarding women wanting to wear a pant suit while doing Temple work and rouge complaints of the dress length, sleeve length of temple ceremony clothing but nothing regarding garments. So very curious. Please follow up when you gain more information there please.

[@watcherpalmerlds]

www.abc4.com/news/religion/lds-church-now-offering-sleeveless-garments/amp/

[@kmartin2988]

I have not felt the Spirit around Sister Stone. Sorry. Truth.

[@gavroshtheswift9959]

I think you’ll find heartache at the end of this path you’ve chosen. Farewell Brother

[@jonterry9843]

Yeah, the whole idea of believing and sustaining the Lord's founding prophet of the Restoration when he ALWAYS insisted he NEVER preached or practiced polygamy and was ALWAYS a faithful husband to his ONE dear wife, Emma. Now that's a sure path to heartache ...

[@gavroshtheswift9959]

@@jonterry9843 you’ve been deceived and it saddens me.

[@jonterry9843]

@@gavroshtheswift9959 I'll somehow bear the burden of choosing to believe the TRUTH--that the Lord's chosen prophet was faithful to His Heavenly Father and to his dear wife. But don't be sad, Brother gavrostheswift--the Lord invites you to do the same. (You might watch recent videos by Karen Hyatt or Jeremy Hoop (at "Still Mormon") to help you see that path more clearly. But the real clarifier will always be the Spirit of the Lord, obtained by sincere prayer. Give it a try, amigo. Use Moroni's test (in chapter 10, verses:3-5)). Let me know how it goes, okay? All the Best, Gavro!)

[@Thehaystack7999]

If plurality of wives is not part of our 13 Articles of Faith, then I do not think the Lord will cast me out of Heaven for lacking a testimony in such a program. And I not coming from a polygamist lineage am not biased in the justification of such a program. However I am not an advocate of spirit by which Michelle conducts her work.

[@BrianTerrill]

Is all our doctrine contained in the 13 articles of faith? If it's a revelation from God, it is covered in Article of Faith 9

[@Thehaystack7999]

@@BrianTerrill the fixed ordinances, principles and things pertaining to salvation are included, but lacking a testimony in a temporary program which the Lord calls abominable will not seal one out of heaven. It would keep one out of heaven as much as not getting the jab would keep one out of heaven.

[@BrianTerrill]

@Thehaystack7999 if the Lord revealed it and we denied it, then we would be kept out.

[@Thehaystack7999]

@@BrianTerrill I will rephrase so I am clearer “Today” we who are alive will not be denied entry to heaven for lacking a testimony of plural marriage especially when it is not commanded of us or of all the saints at any given time since the restoration. It was never commanded of all saints.

[@wheels636]

@Thehaystack7999 why do people get so upset with polygamy in our past? It's not commanded of us these days. It was part of the church, and many great leaders of the church practiced and came from it. Even Jesus Christ practiced it. So what's the big deal about it? we shouldn't be ashamed of our churches history just because some have decided that because the world says it's bad, we should. But yet the world says good is bad and bad is good. I'll choose a past where many righteous prophet's and people who practiced it.

[@StandforTruth712]

Brother Palmer, I initially followed a few of Michelle Stone's videos and bought into some of her points but pulled back because she bad mouths the brethren regularly in her podcasts. She claims she was called by God to correct the Church, and her followers have referred to her as a prophetess. During her interview with Greg Matsen, she presented herself as a being caring member who is just innocently looking for anwers. On her podcast, however, she brings in ex mormons who rail against the Church for the sins of polygamy and other problems they have with the Church and she rails right along with them. She has also appeared on ex mo podcasts to do the same. In the interview with Greg, she claimed she didn't have the expertise to say whether or not she believes John Tayor and Brigham Young plotted and carried out the murder of Joseph Smith, yet on her podcast she has interviewed those who do believe this and she agreed with them. She also claims Brigham Young was a fallen prophet, (which means everyone after him are also frauds) who made up the endowment for the purpose of justifying polygamy and has recently questioned why the Church is spending so much money to build temples rather than helping the poor. She says all of this while at the same time claiming she still wears the garmet. Why? The problem with history, whether it's World, USA or Church history, is that not only does every historian bring their bias to the table when interpreting documents or accepting one document over another as reliable, is that those who left behind the historical record also have a bias and an agenda of their own whether or not they recognize it. When presenting their findings, all historian can do is to present their best guess based on what information they have. Too often conclusions have to be revised or completely discarded when new information is discovered. And we all know that context matters. We have all been guilty of jumping to conclusions and being wrong. Also when analyzing history, you can't use your 21st century eyes to evaluate the 18th. In spite of these facts, historians present their interpretations and assumptions regarding the limited historical record they have cherry-picked to fit their world view, as fact. We are also all aware that in every circumstance there is more than one side to every story, whether it's a husband and a wife sharing the details of the same experience or various witnesses testifying to what actually happened at a crime scene, accident or fight. Each presents their point of view as the hard cold facts. People are also prone to make claims that put themselves in best light or promote their self interest or agenda. We've all experienced “I said, he said, she said, they said.” We've all been accused of saying things we didn't say or intend or doing things we didn't do. We have all been guilty of not revealing the full truth, or denying things in the name of protecting ourselves or someone else. In the end it is not possible to discover the “rea”l or absolute truth when it comes to history whether or not it happened yesterday, last week or 200 years ago. In the end, we not only must be careful of who we listen to but question their motives and conclusions as well as the context, motives and agendas of those who made and recorded history. There are plenty of testimonies in the personal journals of some of Joseph's plural wives that Michelle chooses to write off or ignore because they were recorded late. Generally speaking history recorded late is less reliable than history recorded contemporaneously; however, that does not always make late recorded history false. Polygamy has always been a hot button issue. If you or I had engaged in it during the Nauvoo period, none of us would have written or talked about it openly either and perhaps even denied or preached against its practice. And please don't be so quick to say you would not have kept it secret or preached against, even if it was of the Lord because you likely would have. We are all guilty of doing something we said we would never do. In the end, I personally don't like or get polygamy. It's a quagmire. It's something I have wrestled with and still wrestle with, but I cannot deny the truth and power of the temple ordinances and covenants and I can never accept that Brigham Young made them up to support a salacious sexual appetite which Michelle Stone advocates. Michelle speaks ill of Elder Oaks and President Nelson because of their sealings to their second wives which has lead my second wives to break their sealing today. Many have removed their garments and left the Church because of her rhetoric. The Doctrine of the temple is found throughout the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Old Testament and the New Testament (Hebrews most notably in my opinion.) There is also non-LDS podcast by Jack (Jacqueline) Logan called “theancienttradition.com” where she presents the findings of non-LDS scholars who have evaluated the ancient religious traditions across the world in every culture, revealing LDS theology without knowing it. It will blow your mind. I recommend watching episode 4 on Adam And Eve in the Garden first to wet your appetite. Furthermore, Michelle has also fallen prey to LGBT+ ideaolgy, having twin daughters who have come out as gay, one now becoming transgender. I listened to her interview she did with her daughters as they shared their LGBT journey. As I listened, red flags flew up everywhere. It's the same story you hear from those who have left the LGBT lifestyle, as well as detransitioners’; Her Twins’ story could have easily been my story. Thank goodness I didn't have youtube and my mother didn't turn me over to Dr. Julie Hanks. They felt awkward; they weren't interested in dolls or barbies; they were more interested in playing with boys and couldn't relate to the boy crazy girls they were with in Young Women. Interestingly they said they didn't know what gay was until they were nine and it creeper them out. Next thing you know they went online and begin to wonder if they really were gay. Then came counseling and wouldn't you know the counselor helped them to see they they were born gay and had been gay along. Of course as their mother, Michelle compassionately embraced their story without question and now she complains about just how intolerant the Church is toward the LGBT+ community. In a youtube short Michelle ranted on how the Book of Mormon teaches against polygamy but never teaches against LGBT.

[@littleredhen3218]

Not true. You have twisted this so much. She loves the temple and attends and finds peace there. She had some horrid experiences there with workers and individuals that cause horrible trauma. She shared that in some of her most recent podcasts. But she also shares how she returned to the temple by the direction of the Spirit and was give comfort and peace. You are way behind and inaccurate on your assessment of her. She is very very open and invites anyone who will openly talk to her because she will not shut the other side down. Even those who are very hostile to the Church and to herself. She has been verbally and emotionally ABUSED by some of her guests. She lets them say what they want to say and then she studies up and refutes their false notions. You only watched a few episodes. You've got about 100 more to watch before you open your uninformed mouth.

[@jarenthompson915]

I can attest to seeing the same behaviors from sis. Stone as explained above. I've watched her do many of the things mentioned.

[@risefromthedust]

This comment is not true to the facts. Talk about embellishment.

[@danielroehm2822]

@@StandforTruth712 Now i don't know what to think. So many contradictory stories.

[@StandforTruth712]

@@risefromthedust There is no embellishment whatsoever. I have followed Michelle for almost a year.

[@beoneB1]

Who has the keys?? Joseph has the keys! Section 90: 1-3 “1 Thus saith the Lord, verily, verily I say unto you my son, thy sins are forgiven thee, according to thy petition, for thy prayers and the prayers of thy brethren have come up into my ears. 2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time. 3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;…”

[@11of13]

RE garment changes, since we are instructed to wear them day and night, how is the “skirt” going to work?

[@dianeempey1]

How is it not?

[@Triumphantday]

It's like a nightgown dude. Use your brain and let your imagination help you.... It looks exactly like a nightgown.

[@franciegwin]

Did Michelle bring out whether second 132 as never being brought before the church as to common consent?

[@loisleonard9436]

You're good! NO WORRIES❤

[@tennisgirl57]

Ask God if section 132 is valid!

[@RianBAnderson-pd7vz]

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost! - 3 Nephi 29:6

[@j.e.9017]

How about this 💡...if polygamists rightly fall underneath the umbrella of the lgtbq+, polyamory community -- then every one of the talks expressed and given to the public from church sponsored events, e.g. byu talks, gencon, stake conferences, liahona articles, etc, which have been in support of befriending or otherwise making efforts to fellowship even the least of these are inclusive of polygamist, no?!...why then does their seem to be a nudge for the outpouring of love to lgtbq+ associated people BUT there is a consensual feeling to shun those who are willingly associated with being polygamists?! 🤯

[@watcherpalmerlds]

This is really a great question. I am pondering right now

[@maryfrankralls9985]

Thanks for sharing!!

[@cherieballamis5207]

Polygamy has been presented thru time with much contradictions.

[@mollyshort2390]

❤Sending love to one of my favorite Utah youtube channel . Brother and Sister Palmer I started Cardio Miracle because of you and it’s helped alot. Keep giving us your opinions , have a blessed week ahead sending love from Arkansas 😊