Bel Canto Pianism: A Discussion with "Koczalski's Ghost"

[@cmpiano2404]

Timestamps 0:23 start + KG introduction 6:43 Object of the discussion & historical/critical framing 10:09 Harold C. Schoenberg on the decline 11:34 Disparaging “There has never been a point in history where we had musicians as good as they are now” 14:23 Disparaging “Rachmaninoff plays too lightly” 16:02 We don’t have the calibre of composers like we used to 18:48 “Everything you were taught is wrong” 20:45 Improvising 21:23 Beginning of Taruskin discussion 23:53 Taruskin’s Tradition & Authority 25:48 “How is music transmitted?” - the score is not end all be all 27:38 KG’s Criticism of Taruskin 30:16 1st musical Example Taruskin’s Compare & Contrast of Prokokiev’s Op. 32/3 of differing performance practices. First recording by Prokokiev, second by Boris Berman 34:23 Discussion of Taruskin’s example 37:40 “Music has become over-intellectualised” 38:33 introduction into Bel Canto 40:30 Opera houses 41:35 few book recommendations + comments on Roots of the Classical 43:12 Imitation of singing tone 46:08 Vibrato 46:56 Chopin & Cantabile imitation 47:45 Chopin Pianist & Teacher comments 49:25 2nd Musical Example: Liszt’s “Un sospiro” by Lamond & Richter, C&C 52:47 Agogic 54:28 “Piano was taking a breath” 54:55 3 points on Italian Singing Technique 55:59 3rd musical example: Mendelssohn Songs Without Words Op.53/2 by Friedman & Gieseking. 59:31 Friedman’s approach to the first phrase 1:02:37 Lost aspect - Portimento 1:04:20 4th musical example: Chopin Op.9/2 Rosé (violin) & Samaroff (piano), C&C 1:09:16 MU on avant-garde & complexity 1:12:46 Overtones/Natural Harmonics [IMPORTANT] 1:17:37 MU personal anecdote - “how close proximity & how much we’ve lost”/Proof of Oral Transmission 1:22:12 Hummel 1:25:38 MU’s frustrations of pedagogy & technique 1:27:25 Musical Time - Material for Art 1:28:16 Correction of “Baroque music was rhetorical, Romantic onwards is not” 1:30:17 Rhetoric in musical teaching 1:32:35 HIP = modernistic LARP, & their reductive performance practice 1:36:28 In defense of 19th Century/Comparison with Shakespeare - Timing is important 1:37:01 Phrasing is crucial in Shakespeare for modern audiences 1:38:02 Rhetoric by modernists 1:38:50 5th musical example - Chopin Nocturne in Ab Op.32/2 by Grunfeld 1:42:06 Discussion of Grunfeld 1:43:07 “There are too many musicians” & overcrowding institutions 1:44:45 Tempo Rubato - “asynchronization of the hands” 1:46:45 Setting up for the 6th music example 1:48:28 6th musical example - Mendelssohn Songs Without Words Op. 19b/1 by Cortot 1:49:19 Discussion 1:50:00 7th musical example - Schubert scherzo in Db major played by Koczalski 1:51:28 Discussion 1:54:34 KG’s anecdote Pianist practising in the studio - Improvisation 1:55:45 ‘Overcoming Romanticism’ - Objectivity vs Improvisatory approach to performance 1:57:32 “Better Hollywood composers come from Jazz backgrounds” & Composing at the piano 2:00:17 “Music historians are too apt to read their own experiences back into the 19th Century” 2:01:02 Conservatories vs Master-Apprentice 2:02:32 Composing at the piano continued - Patterns within Jazz/Figured Bass 2:05:40 Theme & Variations 2:06:20 MU’s question about the piano used for Mozart 21st Piano Concerto 2:09:20 Mozart as operatic fluidity 2:11:34 Nature of KG’s training 2:18:00 8th musical example - Wagner/Lizst Tannhauser Overture played by Moiseiwitsch 2:20:18 Discussion 2:21:09 video example of Hoffmann playing Tannhauser Overture without sound 2:21:26 Short discussion on Technique 2:22:40 AuthenticSound 2:23:37 Lamenting the musicality of musicians of yesteryear & Beethoven’s complete knowledge of tonality 2:24:42 Vladimir de Pachmann & transposing the WTC in every key 2:27:25 “Many things can be played if there is a foundation” & why simply preserving cultural heritage is losing sight of musicianship 2:28:50 Mission statement for us moderns 2:31:19 Institutions are the problem 2:32:23 Problem with historic instruments not reflective of 19th Century standards 2:34:00 The Classical Music Question 2:37:39 Politicisation of performing arts 2:39:45 Wrapping up Book/essay recommendations Robert Philip - early recordings & musical style [Cambridge University Press] Hindemith - Elementary Training for Musicians Preface Taruskin - Tradition & Authority [from Text & Act] Taruskin - Oxford History of Western Music [5 Volume set] Van der Merwe - Roots of the Classical: The Popular Originas of Western Music [Oxford University Press] Eigeldinger - Chopin: Pianist and Teacher: As Seen By His Pupils [CUP] Hummel - A Complete Theoretical and Practical Course of Instruction on the Art of Playing the Piano Forte Johann Gottfried Walther - Musicalisches Lexikon [1732] Robert Hill - Overcoming Romaticism [from Music & Performance in the Weimar Republic, CUP] Taruskin - Spin Doctors of Early Music (New York TImes)

[@MusicaUniversalis]

You are the real MVP!

[@cmpiano2404]

@MusicaUniversalis I will be when I finish LMAO! Enjoying the discussion greatly so far, so thank you!

[@pablobear4241]

Hour 50 is Chopin not Schubert. Thanks for this

[@christophersurnname9967]

This is definitely, without a doubt, the best thing I have come across on KZbin, or even Twitter. As a young guy, for a few years I genuinely thought I was one of the only young people in the world who was into this era of pianists. Coming across you guys and Karl Bohm Respector was really nice. Making this kind of material tho, this long form chat with music examples etc, completely next level. Very good to hear Koczalski's Ghost talk, really wish you both the best with the things you are working on.

[@nicolasvanpoucke.pianist]

This is a fantastic conversation, thank you very much. Now let’s bring back the Golden Age or have a new one 💪

[@HectorBarreto_]

Incredible, been waiting to hear Mr Koczalski talk in length.

[@billtownsend937]

Devouring this interview. Thank you thank you. Can’t wait to follow up with copious listening and reading.

[@boydaaron]

This is an invaluable document. I have already assigned to students.

[@rennadjey8056]

Fantastic interview, thank you so much. I've dig deep into this topic, but from the classical singing perspective, and there are many people completely disillusioned by modern performance and classical education practices, especially regarding bel canto, which today doesn't mean a thing anymore. It is at least comforting to know that there are people aware and able to hear this. And I found some in the craziest of places doing jobs having nothing to do with music. Keep up the good work. As the concert and opera houses continue to get more and more empty, maybe the voice of "others" will become more prominent. Sadly, you are most probably right, and the lost art will never be found again in this form. But might slowly get rediscovered in private alternative circles of talented amatures and old record collectors and enthusiasts, far away from the snobbish academics. In the end, the true art is based on nature and might rise from it again if allowed to grow in a safe space isolated from the mainstream classical music scene.

[@zacharywhitney7295]

Just more gold from the best music channel on YT 😎👏🏻🔥

[@Goetterdaemmerung86]

The discussion I didn’t know I needed

[@maverick9682]

We are so back

[@andrews886]

A wonderful, wide-ranging discussion. Almost nothing I can disagree with, some of which I cover in my book Vital Performance: Historically Informed Romantic Performance in Cultural Context. Best wishes to you both.

[@HofmannScores]

So happy to see more people talking about the old school and how bad musician's have gotten since the latter half of the 20th century. Long live the old school!

[@pianopat]

Thank you for this discussion. It is most informative, illuminating, and it does make me question many things in my own playing, so it is doing something useful in challenging the status quo. I would like to bring a few points forward however. Firstly I feel, although it has been mentioned, that not enough attention has been drawn on the fact that pianos themselves have changed enormously, becoming heavier, more powerful, more solid, but less subtle, less characterised in tone colour, and less able to do a singing line. That fact really shouldn't be overlooked. Secondly although your guest is extremely interesting, well learned and clearly knows what he is talking about, he also makes very bold claims ("I have Rubinstein's technique"), which, in choosing to remain anonymous, he also conveniently doesn't have to back up his claims with a demonstration (unless he has and I am not aware of it. I have never been on twitter). We would want to see what his playing is like, and whether or not he lives up to his claims. In some ways this is a similar problem to the one of the channel This is opera, which is also fascinating and provocative, but hides behind a rather convenient veil of anonymity, although I do know that they have been exposed. The other thing is that I find there is also in this discussion a little bit of undue idealisation of a supposedly golden past. Although much of what is being said is undeniably true and backed by recording, there is also probably a fair bit of playing from that era that was unduly prone to showmanship, excessive freedom, questionable taste, and sloppiness. This is also reflected in some recording, and it should be acknowledged. As Lamond said to Karajan when they played together, it wasn't all wonderful. Our times are also in some ways a reaction against some of the excesses of the 19th century, and though we have lost much in the process, this is how history works. However, I don't want to sound unduly critical or ungrateful. I mostly absolutely agree with what I learned here, and am very pleased to have seen this video which will make me think for a long time.

[@dexiomine1232]

I absolutely agree with what you say. There are a lot of very interesting and well thought-out points talked about in this video that I think need to be adressed and will be very inspiring to all types of musicians. However, I find the format of this video to be somewhat problematic as well. The whole debate is very much centered around this dichotomy of past and present that seems unnuanced and gets lost a bit too often in polemic bashing for me (funny how I found that some of their critique on the other side, the mysterious "they", could very well be applied to their side.) I get my lessons from a pianist who studied under the modern conditions of the 'Musikhochschule' and we talk about singing on the piano, breath control and the influence of opera on melodic lines all the time. I agree that a lot of things regrettably got lost in the art of piano playing but it isn't that black and white like it's portrayed here. Also, this video is hardly a discussion and rather feels like a circejerk over a fetishized past at some points. I really really appreciate the scientific effort and work that went into this video and I am glad that this topic is adressed by such smart and informed people but some parts were pretty hard to digest. When they talked about how some people should "stay out of music" I wanted to turn it off all together. A pity!

[@pianopat]

@@dexiomine1232 And there is another point that seems to have been pushed under the carpet. The change in piano playing that occurs is described as being due to bad musicians becoming teachers, but this is certainly far from always being the case. Cortot was a fantastic pianist and musician from the old school, and he trained an immense number of pianists who pretty much all played in a modern way, Lipatti, Haskil, De Brunhoff, Heidsieck, and so many others. None of his student ever desynchronise their attacks, or practice the kind of rubato he did, though they were great pianists. So clearly the change that happened goes much deeper than a case of bad transmission, if pretty much all over the western world people changed the way they played and thought about music in such a short period. Many great pianists were teaching, and somehow, the style changed nonetheless.

[@marcossidoruk8033]

His "bold claims" are irrelevant, his technique doesn't matter, only his arguments and the basic fact that any person with ears can tell the old recordings are way better. If pianos have become less able to produce a singing line and good tone that does nothing but support the fact that our musical culture is in decadence, even at the level of instrument manufacturing. All that excessiveness you say supposedly existed in previous times is only excessive when judged by modern (un)musical standards. Of course bad performances and performers existed in the past, these exist at any moment in time, the problem is that almost every performer today is bad.

[@cormaclevinthal3496]

Wonderful discussion

[@mehmeh217]

Great conversation! I was sad to hear the even Gieseking had lost bel canto playing by his time. Who were the first to lose it? Who was the last to have it?

[@maximuslollius6147]

Wonderful discussion boys

[@henrygaida7048]

"'Early Music' is Modernist." THANK YOU!!!

[@alfredbackhus6110]

Though I cannot agree with some of your judgments, especially concerning the hip movement, this was one of the most thought-provoking conversations I watched this year on youtube. Thank you ❤.

[@4menno]

This was very informative, thank you both. Although I do feel I now have to listen to Pli Selon Pli on repeat for the rest of the day for some much needed balance.

[@stephenlimbaugh]

Great stuff guys.

[@leaf5591]

Yes I enjoy this

[@camelot_crusader3024]

Fantastic discussion! Very interesting and informative.

[@DanielGregorio]

I haven't listened to the full conversation yet, and i intent to. But i find it very curious that KZbin recommended this just after i finished reading Kenneth Hamilton's book "After the Golden Age: Romantic Pianism and Modern Performance" Like I've said, i have yet to listen to the full conversation, but just by hearing some of the points randomly, I'm guessing the arguments in this discussion are fundamentally contrary to the arguments made by Hamilton in his book. And i don't mean this as a discredit of this conversation or anything, it's just that at least on the surface, there seems to be arguments for both sides regarding points like this one: “There has never been a point in history where we had musicians as good as they are now” I love these kinds of conversations so, thank you for making this kind of content.

[@kakoou3362]

Im sorry but with my confidence, i can say that Kenneth Hamilton is just absolutely so wrong

[@DSteinman]

Brilliant stuff! Have you seen the KZbin channel Phantoms of the Opera? Similar subject matter from a soprano singing in bel canto tradition and exploring early recordings

[@jerimiahotto3993]

Here is more ammo for your bashing. I'll paraphrase from Robert Hill's performance practice of early music seminar in Boulder last year: When a performer asks a modern composer of noise music "How can this be playable or how can I play this accurately?" the reply is virtually always something similar to "Oh the notes don't matter in that passage, just change it to make it playable. Try to keep the same shape." You could say this is a large factor distinguishing ancient composition from modern. The pitches in ancient compositions refer directly to an underlying Partimento or chord structure that cannot be easily altered. Further, some universities have stopped teaching fugue to composition students all together. I undertsand if faculty feel teaching it to pianists or other musicians is not important, but composition students must learn fugue! We can't let that tradition dissapear.

[@leonardotorres8829]

I would sure like to hear Mr Koczalski play. Any recordings available?

[@RModillo]

Beethoven memorized WTC, and later Liszt told a story that when he met Beethoven he was asked to do a particular Prelude and Fugue-- and then transpose it. Maybe not accurate, but it was part of the expectations of the time.

[@henrygaida7048]

Regarding improvisation: What is your opinion of the French organ school and improvisation during the context of the Liturgy: do you view this as an authentic continuation of the old tradition of improvisation?

[@mantictac]

I'm glad there's a continuing revival effort for the bel canto performance style. I always try to remind people of it when they complain about early recordings, piano rolls, and the few especially historically-informed pianists today. I practice almost exclusively in the bel canto style, but I'm a pretty poor pianist and I don't have enough time to refine it. I wish I'd had the ability to take it more seriously 8 years ago when I was a 12-year-old with all the time in the world.

[@zavilov]

The problem lies chiefly in the misunderstanding of technique as purely a mechanical artiface as opposed to its application in support and realization of musical effect at much higher level of performance than most people ever can aspire to. We are not to to speak the language of music as it ought to be being to easily satisfied by accuracy as the basis of an excellent performance. Leads to blandness.

[@carlosfajardo9461]

Yes very good

[@andruska4]

Curious to hear your opinion of a pianist composer for film seldom known in the West…Mikael Tariverdiev…his Music has Soul and it’s amazing…

[@cmpiano2404]

I wanted to ask (a little off-topic to the discussion at hand), what are your thoughts on musical schema theory from Robert Gjerdingen & the push of studying Partimento as a tool for composition? Do you think it might be a positive way forward for music education or will it just be a niche fad?

[@MusicaUniversalis]

I guess it’s fine but fairly limited. Probably like 1% of what a composer needs to know. You can only do so much with it, and his book is too long for what amounts to 7 or 8 “patterns.” His book on child composers is more interesting imo.

[@RModillo]

I like much of Koczalski's playing. Interestingly, Arthur Rubinstein had a really cruel dismissal of him in his memoirs. Perhaps because K moved to Germany and stayed? Or were they competitors in their extreme youths? As for Anton Rubinstein, there are some songs on KZbin that some are guessing were accompanied by AR. Fantastic playing, in any case. And completely unlike the controlled, tidy playing of Hofmann.

[@lissom-bling64]

May I ask whose rendition of the third ballade it is that’s played at the beginning?

[@MusicaUniversalis]

It’s from the real Von Koczalski, not his “Ghost.”

[@lissom-bling64]

@@MusicaUniversalis Thank you!

[@tompommerel2136]

Out of curiosity, just who is the person speaking as Koczalski ghost?

[@MusicaUniversalis]

Someone with great knowledge who wishes to remain anonymous, which all things considered is an understandable choice in the era of the internet.

[@leonardotorres8829]

Oh, what a shame! ​@@MusicaUniversalis

[@MrAristaeus]

As we are in the enlightened part of KZbin, I would like to make a polite request: please could you - and by ‘you’ I’m afraid I’m referring exclusively to Americans - refrain from referring to Europe in its entirety as a satisfactory descriptor or an umbrella term when a specific European country would not only be more accurate but it would also be more illuminating and informative. (02:45) It would also be more respectful to do so! To say, “I studied in Europe” is frustratingly vague and implies that Germany is directly comparable to France which in turn is directly comparable to England which is indistinguishably comparable to Spain, which is also nothing but a synonym for Italy… etc, etc. I hate to be ‘that guy’ but when using ‘Europe’ as an umbrella descriptor (in this context, obviously, ‘Europe’ itself isn’t a meaningless word!) it comes across as massively North American-centric. (Ditto for referring to an English accent as a ‘British accent’, when there is in fact no such thing. Try telling a Scottish person that their accent is in any way identifiably British in the same way an English accent is identifiably British and you’ll be given a free demonstration for how dissimilar a Glasgow kiss is to a French kiss).

[@rwalterrust]

Great conversation. Kinda depressing 😂.

[@MusicaUniversalis]

Lament not for what we’ve lost but rejoice in what we had!

[@ManjulaBrahmachari]

I feel like this person is the exact kind of person who would call Liszt and Godowksy horrible composers.

[@thomasn9227]

The guy on the right seems to know what he's talking about. The guy on the left sounds like a pretender with a chip on his shoulder.