Why Warcraft Isn't 'Epic' Any More

[@BellularGaming]

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[@papagnerd1943]

..for a lot of us older players Orcs and Humans was our introduction to Warcraft.... or am I just old?

[@wookieninja8794]

My favorite heroic moment was during the WoD cinematic. Seeing Grom and Garrosh fighting the demons and Guldan and then Grom saying they would never be slaves but they would be conquerors. Absolutely brilliant!

[@aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa86441]

I will never not be pissed about vol'jin. no grand gesture, no heroics, just unceromoniously cut down to push a plot point forward. he deserved better

[@hallo-mt5tx]

cairne was even worse he randomly died because of magathas poison and no one ever spoke about him again afterwards he didnt even get a cinematic

[@aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa86441]

definitely agree, i just liked vol'jin more XD but yeah no there was no real reason to kill cairne off either, given that there were never really any consequences or anything for it. @@hallo-mt5tx

[@tacitidesong]

Fitting. Horde leaders are universally stupid.

[@AndarilhoMarco]

The way they killed Cairne made me stop playing between Cataclysm and Legion, and the way they killed Vol'jin made me stop playing between Legion and Dragonflight.

[@anulire]

Can't even hold a candle to what they did to Malfurion

[@dirkg.3163]

Warcraft should not only celebrate its heroes, it should also celebrate its villains. Until now almost every raid-tier was like "here you have a standard bad guy, beat the sh*t out of him/her", but imagine a villain that is hated by the whole player base from the deepest of their hearts. How satisfying it feels to kill such a villain... Blizzard has proven that they are able to create and build up such a character, i mean you cannot not hate Denathrius.

[@JC-ok4yx]

I still hold to the belief that Denathrius was the true villain behind Shadowlands. With one simple retcon of clarifying that the Sire had only recently allied with the Jailer it would change so much of the story.

[@SteelDawn7]

@@JC-ok4yx I think a lot of the playerbase supports this idea, and even if they didn't, they at least would've been far more receptive to it than Mr. "5D Chess Mastermind that was never mentioned in 20+ years of lore".

[@Elearen]

Great heroes need a great villain to make them great

[@OrchinX]

It's this weird reach-around thing they're been doing for like 8 years where the heroes are secretly morally bankrupt and the villains are secretly kind souls just caught in circumstance. I'm sick of it. You can do that sometimes, but not all the time.

[@Shinyolo]

Dear Chris Metzen, please save us.

[@iyaramonk]

To this day I still think about Runas every now and then. It was just such a surprise how it played it out. No other quest npc has stayed with me this long.

[@Anidem9]

I never forgot how he calls out to you in his last moment of lucidity as his hunger consumes him, as he can no longer see you, and then becomes a Withered.

[@Libertum]

Same. No matter how many times I do this quest, it always brings emotions.

[@azyiasteelheart8053]

Since I started playing this game and exploring its story, I noticed a pattern. I would see a character, hear about them, listen to them talk and think "Huh, this character is cool. I want to see more of them." And then I find out in the next expansion they have been written out while the story is focused elsewhere (The Dragon Flights), died (Varian), had a whiplash inducing change of attitude (Jaina), or that they were a real **** in the past (Odyn). I just wish that the characters would stay consistent in their writing, and that they would stop writing in bits like "Oh, actually, in the time before the games take place, this guy did terrible things for terrible reasons. But he's cool now, Trust me :)" Please let the heroes be heroes heroically. Let them have regrets and conflict from their past, but make it little things, not massive things, like Odyn's BS. The need to STOP flipflopping between "Lets be friends" and "I'll kill every last one of you!"

[@davidthompson5991]

So much of it is unnecessary as well

[@KapnRich]

I find this to be a huge problem. They rely heavily on books and stuff for character development. But everything must occur in game otherwise players who don't read the books (probably the majority) aren't going to understand the change or why they should care about it.

[@yavvivvay]

Odin being crap in the pas was actually good.

[@OrchinX]

@@yavvivvay No dude. It's against the nature of order to lie and cover up the fact that half the planet exists. The Titans were already morally grey in a way that was true to their nature and reflected the pre-Abrahamic notions of gods. You only think it's "good" because it's this "clever" little twist that makes midwits go 'oooo.' Basically game of thrones season 8. This is how you get characters like Sylvanas who are bad but secretly good but secretly bad but secretly good but ACTUALLY really just normal good bad with a SIDE of good.

[@yavvivvay]

​@@OrchinX no, dude, you are completely wrong. Odin was corrupted like all of the lesser guardians - just not as hard as Loken, but his pride was abused to the point of madness. All the guardians were corrupted by old gods, which was reflected by acting against their nature. Also, Odin is a complete cunt from the second we hear about him and/or meet him. That was before all the funny retcons happened at the very least. Also Jaina is... weird. Her absolute bananas rage was out of character, her BFA plot was a high point of the whole thing, her Shadowlands presence was... sloppy. On a side note, Anduin is still written like he were a small boy.

[@TastyScotch]

With icc coming out ive gotten to relive a lot of the arthas/lich king lore… man, it was so good. It honestly makes what happens in shadowlands even more disappointing. I actually get the feeling the shadowlands expac was one man’s attempt to destroy sylvanas as a character and the legacy of WC3 as a whole for personal reasons.

[@lucasmorgan4379]

Couldn't agree more...Definitely feels like a targeted attack as if they knew they were getting the boot and wanted to give one last f u

[@Maria_Erias]

@@lucasmorgan4379 If you mean Afrasiabi, the last time he had any influence on the story was pre-BfA, specifically the War of Thorns. Everything after that was straight-up Steve Danuser. All those plot threads messily ended in BfA? The death of N'Zoth? Azshara and the Naga? Everything else? That was all Danuser typing up every loose thread that had been left in the game from Metzen's time, because he wanted to put forward his own grand idea of what WoW should be: a cosmological adventure that explored metaphysical concepts. That's how we ended up with Shadowlands. Shadowlands was Danuser's baby.

[@lucasmorgan4379]

@Maria_Erias I wasn't sure if I thought it was him or someone else that's why I didn't specify who I thought it was i was just saying that it felt like those changes were a targeted attack by someone

[@saiyaman9000]

ICC so much more badass

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

It was more an attempt to destroy Arthas. Because in the minds of the writers, they certainly thought they made Sylvanas awesome.

[@kenny187ful]

One of the main things I hope Metzen brings back to Warcraft. We've lost all our hero, and antihero, characters, mostly to bad writing. Thrall, Varian, Tirion, Malfurion, Vol'jin, Illidan (At least got a good send off), Sylvanas, Garrosh(?). I get they can't all be in the spotlight forever, and stories have to move on, but none of the characters these days seem to have any soul, no character, they're all bland and one sided. The one character who had the most potential to be the next real hero, Turalyon, is extremely bland and vanilla. They could've done so much with him, giving him a story following Legion, readjusting to life back on Azeroth, struggling with what he's been through and had to do, but Blizz has done nothing but sit him on a chair. The one real hope left is Baine, but xpac after xpac, Blizz does nothing with him.

[@JulianaBlewett]

Good riddance to Garrosh.

[@Apocobat]

@@JulianaBlewettgarrosh did nothing wrong

[@kenny187ful]

@@JulianaBlewett That's why I put the question mark, he's a divisive character, but that's what made him feel like an actual character. It gave him dimension, depth, motives, etc.

[@istealthlgaming1859]

Baine sucks

[@dracoinsanity]

I agree. While I personally didn't like Garrosh because of how much of a war-monger he became, at the same time I understood WHY he became what he did and what he hoped to achieve from it. I also appreciate the fact that even though he technically killed Cairne with a poison blade, he didn't plan to and was pissed off at the person who gave it to him because it wasn't an honorable kill, which is something he still believed in and wanted from his duel with the Tauren chief so he could properly feel like he earned his place. For all of the bad Garrosh did, I can still understand what he was trying to do, so I have to give him that much at least, and that's a sign of a decent charcater imo.

[@jarofpickles4057]

I'll never get over the "what if" of a Bolvar Lich King. His involvement in Legion with the death knight story was incredibly cool. We got a cool cinematic of him looking awesome and using cool Lich King powers, but his defeat by Sylvanas and then just having him be everywhere in the Shadowlands story while simultaneously not really doing anything was SUPER lame. It's especially a shame because of how it hurts the coolness of old story elements, such as Bolvar's involvement at the Wrathgate and his sacrifice of taking up the mantle of the Lich King to begin with.

[@Yagamimoon]

And the simping for his daughter to top it all off. I get it, he regrets not being there for her, i can accept that, as long as he does something cool somewhere else =/

[@jarofpickles4057]

@@Yagamimoon Yea. The biggest problem tbh is that he legit didn't do a single cool thing in Shadowlands. The expac cinematic was nice but those are always great.

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

You know, regarding the Legion Death Knight storyline... it definitely felt like they were going for "Bolvar turned completely into new Lich King, and he is just as evil". Because he commands you to do not just questionable, but outright evil things. Slaughtering the red dragons just so you the player could get a cool mount? Well, in the game it makes more sense because you are the leader of Death Knighs, so you should command a powerful undead dragon. But Bolvar has absolutely no regrets about that. And then he sends you to raise Tyrion as a Death Knight. That one would be very interesting if it actually succeeded. After Bolvar loses the Helm, he is a different character than this. I guess you could say that the Helm had that effect on him, so it makes sense. But it's kinda hard to imagine that he was supposed to be this great character who by the sheer force of his will defied this omnipotent Jailer... yet after he is freed to do his thing... he does nothing. And just awkwardly argues with his daughter, or awkwardly stands nearby. The most important thing he does is just agreeing with plans devised by others.

[@monkeyswithshoes308]

@@Yagamimoon Yea it would have been cool if he got all sorrowful for missing his daughter, and vice versa, and then he did some outlandish heroics and she would have been like "Ohhhhh, this is the crazy epic horror shit my dad was dealing with the whole time" and been proud and overwhelmed by said situation.

[@jonplatts2200]

I agree! I had hoped that Bolvar would have had more of an impact with the Mograines than he did. I am still holding out hope that we get some kind of moment of epicness if we ever go back to Northrend to help with the Scourge Remenants there.

[@huwick7993]

A great heroic moment for me, that fits into your mention of characters making a stand, is the moment after Velen's sacrifice in WoD. When the light blasts over the zone, and the Draenei defenders at Karabor raise their weapons and charge. We don't see them fighting, or even meeting the attacking Orcs, just the moment when they start to charge together. A brilliant moment that really captured what you were talking about! :)

[@jarofpickles4057]

Maiev didn't hunt Illidan for ten thousand years, she was his jailor for ten thousand years. Illidan was only freed during the Third War, after which she pursued him.

[@SigridKroon]

I think the thing I’ve noticed most about the story from what I played of dragon flight and hearing about the patch content, is it’s like the writers watched some streams of FFXIV during the exodus and were like, we need to do things more like this. However they only really saw short sections of that story and they didn’t see the entire progress we had gone through in the whole MSQ. The way WoW tells its story, very much more to the side of the gameplay, the talking heads mode of delivery, means sure it’s more active but also less impactful. Almost every really impactful scene you talked about was a cutscene but then so much story is talking heads. In FF everything is a cutscene

[@xJadeWolfxx]

Both games are bad when they try to be each other. FFXIV excels when the player character/WoL is allowed to shine and the cast is supporting and strong. WoW thrives when the roles are flipped and the heroes shine with the player character supporting. WoW is also just not set up to turn into FFXIV MSQ, the insane level of reading, of walking to a point and getting a cutscene, then walking to another point and getting the next part of the cutscene. When I was an exclusively WoW player that would have chaffed like crazy, but in FFXIV where it was the norm from the start, it works for me.

[@rjmercer042]

@@xJadeWolfxx What makes FFXIV work for me (I will readily admit that I skip a lot of the cutscenes) is a lot of the small stuff that happens that indicate things about how my character is perceived. How when I am doing some minor crafting/turn in quest and the NPC finds out who I am and literally goes apeshit over the fact... and there is this undertone coming from the main characters when they talk about "our friend (me)"

[@abbiegibbs1785]

If they could get back the feeling of Warcraft I would possibly be tempted to start caring again. I’m afraid that will be completely impossible without some kind of shakeup of the writing staff though. Those with a desire to use WoW as an opportunity to moralise AT players should probably be let go.

[@jasonmichaeli1378]

The shakeup in the writing staff is called the return of Chris Metzen, so it’s not impossible

[@JamailvanWestering]

@@jasonmichaeli1378depends on how much he is involved in solely that. I mean the dude has stopped writing the game since Wrath

[@jasonmichaeli1378]

@@JamailvanWestering his new role is literally “Executive Creative Director of the Warcraft Universe” so I’m pretty confident the answer is “very”

[@JamailvanWestering]

@@jasonmichaeli1378 which means he would have spread his time overlooking everything which is why he burned out the last time. Look it up, Metzen hit a burn out during WoW. It’s why he wasn’t involved with Cata at all during writing

[@OhNoTheFace]

@@JamailvanWestering A lot of that came with him being forced involved in almost every property. The break and return to just WoW may help. And it has been reported some writers whining about his influence, so ideally he is making the hippy writers uncomfortable

[@grandewill9967]

When Blizzard decided to kill all the important characters? When they got the impression that we like that?

[@haberak3310]

When GoT was a powerhouse of the fantasy genre and was killing everyone left right and center, if I had to guess

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Despite all the highlights mentioned here of heroics and intense moments, I’ve felt that WoW would still also hold back some of its hardest punches with the bigger themes that occurred in WoW when it’s wasn’t black and white. The Defias storyline comes to mind; but usually that was what it was, the side stuff not living up to its full potential Nowadays it feels like that sentiment only grew bigger and bigger until it’s started affecting the main storyline itself, writers either playing everything super safe or being so god damn self indulgent with the morals that immersion is gone and you might as well be getting lectured by some Neo Lib irl.

[@networknomad5600]

THIS. If I wanted to be wokescolded by some millennial, I'd go get a job with Wizards of the Coast.

[@WeDemandGlitterhoof]

World of Warcraft writing is basically the last season of Bojack Horseman. Except that instead of being scolded by a bunch of annoying lib writers you are being scolded by a company that makes the majority of its profits from predatory microtransactions that targets people with serious addiction issues.

[@Maria_Erias]

@@WeDemandGlitterhoof ...Who seem to have hired a crop of annoying lib writers to counteract the sexual assault scandals. I'm sure we all remember the quest writer who tweeted that it "pained" her to "write loving heterosexual couples". Just a note, she's one of the major quest writers for Dragonflight now.

[@Electric_]

That’s exactly it. Blizzard writers are destroying the lore and making it so that every race has woke 2023 white chick morals. They just obliterated 10,000 years of Night Elf culture in one short quest, because they weren’t egalitarian enough. They did Thrall dirty in the Orc heritage quest line to have a Girl Boss moment. It’s all so tiring. It’s all so contrived and fake.

[@ebernardou]

While I agree with this at least get your terms straight. Look up what neoliberalism is lmao

[@wvguy7238]

The writers of WoW have chisen to take the route of the Witcher TV series.

[@robinpimpin190]

Favourite part in Warcraft lore will always be Grom taking on Manoroth and killing him. It's thanks to Grom that I'll be Horde at heart forever.

[@gortimustidditus]

I've noticed this isn't even an issue that afflicts Blizzard's writing exclusively. This seems to be some sort of blanket issue in media as of late overall. I see the same sentiments across many legacy franchises, such as Star Wars, Disney remakes, TV shows, etc. I'm not saying it's a coordinated effort- but more perhaps a generational issue that effects today's writers. The new generation of writers seem to resent the source material, as well as their beloved characters. Maybe it's what they were taught in school, or maybe it's ego (or both), but there seems to be a theme of this type of treatment of source material and characters in established stories as it's passed down to modern writers.

[@fredrick1176]

Can’t have heroic and manly men because it offends a very small percentage of people. It’s coming back though, people are realizing most people like relating to badass dudes and chicks. Not week emotion filled emos

[@aster4jaden]

It's a coordinated effort Disney, Blizzard, Netflix, Warner Bros etc are all obsessed with getting ESG.

[@Maria_Erias]

@@fredrick1176 As a woman who loves strong female role models, I agree with this. I grew up in the era of real strong female role models. Women like Ellen Ripley. Sarah Connor. Dana Scully. Maid Marian in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Now, it seems "strong women" equals the arrogant, toxic male stereotype that these groups like to decry (but you actually can't find anywhere in movies and only see parodied in games - Duke Nuke'em, anyone?), but with boobs.

[@Shadowsdeity]

Yes, exactly. And we should celebrate both strong heroic men and women. Don't get me wrong, I like softness in stories but Warcraft... is not as exciting. It needs its heroes who have become SO iconic over the years. I want to see badass deeds happen in WoW. I do hope that Dragonflight is just Blizzard taking a step back and doing a safe expansion after the story of Shitlands. Tbh I wanted to see the insanely powerful night warrior Tyrande kill the traitorous, selfish Sylvanas for good in SL. It would've been badass if she just cut off her head and threw it in a ditch saying "Elune's justice is served." Sadly Sylvanas is handled as a mary sue so they can re-use her later to drive the story onwards - in probably a shit direction since her arc has already been ruined. WoW characters, and like you said, franchises in general have characters who are half-assed these days, and rarely commit to anything. Even Sylvanas who committed genocide on hundreds of thousands of innocents without much reasoning at all, did a full 180 with "I WILL NEVER SERVE" I hope Metzen's return helps change this. Bottom line is that we need are badass characters who look fucking cool doing what they are.

[@Maria_Erias]

@@Shadowsdeity Honestly, I miss Cataclysm-era Sylvanas. A woman driven to ensure the continuation of her people at any cost. And that played so perfectly into the conflict between her and Garrosh. Garrosh with his rough warrior's concept of honor and right and wrong, and Sylvanas with her willingness to do whatever it takes for her people. Two separate and (from a narrative standpoint) equally valid viewpoints. Removing her consideration for the Forsaken and turning her into... whatever the heck it was that she ended up as, was one of the worst things the writers did. She stopped becoming an actual morally-grey character and instead became a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

[@calebedourado]

Short comment: I miss being just a regular footsoldier, finding my space in the great scheme of things, ASSISTING those legendary heroes of old and exploring the world. A simple life... for simple times.

[@northp3214]

I still don't understand how Blizzard, in the bland Dragonflight, created such an amazing questchain for Foresaken? They really should give people responsible for this quest give more control over story.

[@Skyblade12]

No, no one who writes for the Horde should be given ANY more power at Blizzard. There’s too much Horde favoritism there as it is.

[@northp3214]

@@Skyblade12 I didn't think about it that way. 😅 I just want writers who can write satisfying stories to be in higher positions.

[@Elearen]

@@Skyblade12they should each employee only write for one faction or race, to make them all feel different

[@francescoporcari8597]

I do appreciate the questchain too, even though I'm rooting for the scarlet crusade. They are the true heirs of lordaeron.

[@wonderbrad5277]

Malfurian being sidelined and declawed time and time again. Malfurian should be a main focal point. He is stronger than Illidan but never gets a spot light.

[@abbiegibbs1785]

I used to love Malfurion. But I can’t even look at his character now without getting PTSD flashbacks of ‘TyranDAH! MY LOVE’.

[@Vaishino]

@@abbiegibbs1785 If you're talking about the Malfurion voices in the Emerald Nightmare raid, I'm pretty sure that's not actually Malfurion, it's Xavius taunting Tyrande by appearing like a pathetic Malfurion.

[@omarcomming722]

No shot is he stronger than Legion Illidan, maybe the old one.

[@federerlkonig330]

@@omarcomming722 Legion Illidan would only have his plot armour and the possibility to fight on Argus, but Malfurion would still destroy him, albeit not in a curbstomp battle.

[@federerlkonig330]

@@Vaishino i can't help but imagine Malfurion cringing hard while Xavius nearby is wearing fake green beard and starts screaming in the most stupid imitation of Malfurion.

[@Venjur40]

Maiev didn't hunt Illidan for 10,000 years, she guarded him for 10,000 years after the WotA 'til Tyrande busted him out in WC3, then she hunted him 'til he was captured @ the end of tBC...

[@bobbythefish4836]

I started playing the game after watching someone play the Legion joint faction scenario on the broken shore. In my experience I feel like all the story and narrative situations are better when we are not the main character. There are so many moments where they try to fit us in as equals to the heroes and I just don't think it is fitting or desirable to be a leader or any kind of main character in the game. It feels like the game is telling me what I am rather than letting me be my character. Legion got the identity feeling right because we had our order halls and we were just one of the soldiers. I much prefer when the real heroes are taking the lead and I am just a specialist that participates in the details. I like WoW in that right because I am not the "Hero of Legend." I just get to be me. I miss being irrelevant to the story and just running into battle when the real heroes yell Charge.

[@elpsykoongro5379]

Only moment where it feels like you are a true champion is in the lich king final boss

[@ionescucosmin-theodor5758]

... You were unironically the Highlord of the Silver Hand/Archmage of the Tirisgarde/etc in Legion. That expansion was as crazy about making you on a power trip as any got.

[@Nempo13]

That shift to trying to make YOU the big hero is due to the rise of FF14 and how it's story is praised while WoW's is pretty much ridiculed. In FF you are the hero, the big one, but you have to earn it...slowly and over time. The payoff in later expansions is HUGE. When you show up characters react to your mere presence on the battlefield. The big enemies target you intentionally. You aren't this scrappy side character taking on impossible odds. You are the Warrior of Light, The absolute biggest target on the battlefield and the enemy will throw their biggest and meanest directly at you. It causes the fights to MAKE SENSE in a way WoW's never did. Why is the biggest badest dude wasting time with a bunch of no name scrubs instead of targeting the named character?

[@alfredwotanson7971]

Western culture has always been rooted in heroism. Honestly, all human cultures are rooted in heroism, but I'm a westerner, so I'll stick with that perspective. The reason wow's recent stories suck is because they are actively trying to avoid touching on these archetypes. You can see this problem across all media coming out of Western countries. We've become so woke that people actually think they can subvert the archetypes that literally formed the human psyche. So we're left with soulless stories that don't touch upon anything that inspires us.

[@dvklaveren]

Warcraft III was a story about byronic heroes; people who are challenged by their own extreme passions and moral outlooks. It's about people who give up in the face of certain doom and slink away in shame to nurture their wounded egos or don't and go down fighting (or survive, for good or ill). World of Warcraft may want to write that kind of thing, but it is instead written from the perspective of people who assume differences derive from lack of information. Basically; night elves would think arcane magic is fine if they simply listened to a member of the Kirin Tor and understood it completely. Tyrande became a byronic hero in BFA, but then the plot conspired to tell her that being an interesting character with strong opinions is wrong, actually. It's fucking tiring. Imagine if Frankenstein's Monster and Victor Frankenstein just kind of got along at the end because the Victor Frankenstein tells his monster that "you're becoming just like me" and his monster weeps as he realizes the monster he's become. Goddamn. Instead, what I want to see is the dirty politics played between byronic heroes. I want to see Scarlet Crusaders politick among themselves; for some of the Scarlet Crusaders, Lordaeron independence as the light on the hill was so paramount to the moral identity of followers of the Holy Light, they'd rather die than accept anyone other than the Church of Holy Light or a Lordaeron noble house to rule the remnants of Lordaeron. And then for others, it was simply about control and hate and paranoia. Have the latter backstab the former, then have for the former return and slay his treacherous brother. Make a Scarlet Civil War happen. Have passions fly high. Have the night elves continue to reject arcane magic as anything other than a fringe practice that has no place in their villages; not because they think arcane magic is dangerous, but because it goes against the living proof that night elves sought to exemplify that arcane and fel magic are unnecessary to stand against the Burning Legion. Have the night elves be dismissive of those who were corrupted against their wills, believing they must have had greed in their hearts to be corrupted so easily. Give cultures some teeth, damnit. Instead, everyone is just talking about the importance of adapting. There's no texture to that; everyone just kind of agrees to try new things, rather than sticking to their guns. You don't even have to be intolerant about it; night elves might say that they're fine with humans practicing arcane magic, but they are happy to keep going on without it. Night elves don't need arcane magic to innovate; in fact, I love the idea of fire druids being a new adaptation that is native to night elf culture. Having subcultures of elves who think certain types of nature magic that night elf society at large considers taboo are actually fine is great. In the real world, every culture is internally diverse and we just don't see that in World of Warcraft.

[@MrQuester1]

Sadly, this is a problem in a lot of entertainment these days not just Warcraft. Let's hope with Metzan in charge of the story our heroes will return after all I'm pretty sure he knows what a hero is.

[@anulire]

Sadly, don't expect much from Metzen. woke political agenda in WoW is too deeply intertwined now and Metzen was gone for too long :( He is back now, and was back for some time and what we get now? A BFF of Shandris and Voss... Seriously???

[@Dinodan3]

@@anulire It's also worth noting that Metzen could have changed since he last worked on WoW. In the 90's he was a complete metalhead who wanted to put brutal orcs and hot, half naked women in his games. The last time he worked on Warcraft he covered up Sylvanas' midriff because he thought it wasn't appropriate anymore. Whether or not you care about the midriff (personally, I don't), it shows that his views on certain things have changed, and that his view on what Warcraft should be could have changed as well. He is from California, after all...

[@anulire]

@@Dinodan3 "he is from california after all" That is what I fear the most :D

[@CommissarChaotic]

@@Dinodan3 Fenix, no....

[@talscorner3696]

I think what I miss the most from WoW is the heavy metal. The insane, over the top heavy-meta-album-worthy stuff that made my day back in the times of WC2 and up to WotLK. The last stands, the changings of minds after unbeatable odds were beaten, the begrudging respect, the seeing that the other is a person after both have gone through life-altering pain. The making of a new alloy from separate elements, if it makes sense.

[@dutchielander2478]

World of Feelingscraft doesn't have room for legendary heroes if they don't use the cashshop to buy transmog or use their male testosterone to fight their enemy. I'm sick of trying to pretend to being friends with everybody in a game that literaly has 'War' in the title. The only 'war' that's being fought in this game is the war against masculinity.

[@crimsondragon1794]

can't be a hero if everyone is a villian in this day and age.

[@RE-sc9bz]

What a good analogy for society at large. Destroying unique culture, homogenizing groups of people together... leads to bad things. Groupthink is now celebrated, while personal exceptionalism is vilified and hunted for destruction. Luckily, there are still quite a few real heroes still out there.

[@kylesmith564]

I think the best part about the type of Sacrificial heroism that wow is known for, is that you don't even need to do it that often. on one hand because it would cheapen subsequent ones, and on another, you have a stage in which a lot of characters can be easily categorized by what they think of the sacrifice itself and the situation surrounding it which can give people a lot easier introductions to characters than having to do a whole questline for each of them or videos or whatnot.

[@dvklaveren]

I think it's not even neccesarily sacrifice. It's becoming the victim of their commitment to flawed perspectives. Like Garithos being eaten alive by ghouls because he thinks he can order Sylvanas around when his usefulness has run out for her. We need more characters who are fully committed to something they know is likely going to be difficult or foolish, but doing it anyway. More fucking around and finding out. More heroic stands against impossible odds. More byronic plots about characters who are champions of their own outlooks and who resist or break. More characters who bite their tongue in service of something, but who become either jaded or hardened by the lessons in humility they must suffer through. We need more romanticism in the vein of Milton, Byron and Shelly and less homogenization.

[@mg8565]

I think it's worth considering how much our culture has changed since Warcraft launched. It was developed, launched, and existed for a couple years in a time where smart phones and 24/7 internet in your hand weren't yet The Norm. Social media didn't exist, barely - Friendster, anyone? Our attention spans were longer then - we waited a whole week or more to see another episode of a TV show and many players lined up, in person, to buy BC and WotLK. These days, everything goes fast, and the folks who design the game are not that different from the folks playing it. We all want what we want, and we want it fast, and if we don't get it we'll find it elsewhere, with free shipping. Even the color palette of Dragonflight, with it's Skittles vibrancy points to the short attention spans of today's gamer. Dragonriding is another example. I don't want to bash Warcraft because I still enjoy it, but I see the flaws clearly and what used to be a story-driven social game has become a fill-up-the-bar and top-off-the-colors game where other players are a necessary but barely tolerated downside. Finally, as much as I love using the current game systems like gear upgrades to obtain tier, part of me can't help but see this as just another way to satisfy and reward the short attention spans of folks who will otherwise give up and quit because the dopamine isn't hitting as fast or as satisfying as TikTok.

[@n.m.h9679]

Warcraft has become a rated G children’s show. It used to be about humans and orcs murdering each other. Now Blizzard has everyone holding hands as if WoW were some sort of Pepsi commercial. Put the guitar down and pick up your axe. Damn hippies.

[@TheRemulosEpsolonProgramme]

I wish part of Varian, soul wise or something, is still out there. I didn't think that Fel would purely destroy a soul.

[@MyHogs]

Could be why his son is still wandering around the Maw?

[@TheRemulosEpsolonProgramme]

@@MyHogs I'm not sure, I was under the impression, Gul'dan completely destroyed his soul.

[@jonplatts2200]

I always felt that when he died he ended up in HOTS. That is kinda what they made you think from the trailer introducing him...

[@justin5002]

@@jonplatts2200a fate worse than the Maw😂

[@OmegaTiger99]

Shadowlands' treatment of Arthas was criminal

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

VOL'JIN DESERVED BETTER

[@206Zelda]

Agreed, and might I slip Arthas in there too. Vol'jin and Arthas deserved better endings

[@Vaishino]

Wait, Dragonflight has absolutely had sacrifices. Malfurion trading places with Ysera absolutely is a sacrifice, it just didn't happen in combat so I guess it doesn't count? Sendrax in the waking shore is right there too if you need a sacrifice in combat. Hell, the infinite questline with Eternus showed us her sister's noble sacrifice. Sacrifices and big moments are still happening.

[@francescoporcari8597]

The fact is that sacrifice is connected to SL legacy, and we all want to forget that as soon as possible. Also it is not completely clear the whole need for a replacement for Ysera. I'm not denying there are moments of sacrifice, but they are not the engine, the core narrative trope.

[@nesnahprotsdam]

People want to follow characters who are brave, willing to sacrifice and take action. The writers seem hellbent on "talking things out" instead of taking action. It makes them seem toothless and makes them be perceived as side-characters, when they are supposed to be the main characters that the story revolves around. Warcraft and its new woke/weak storywriting, where everything is solved by listening to emotions and dialogue is simply extremely boring. It's very clear the writing team is just importing their own perception of the real world into the game and it is very unwelcome and clashes with everything.

[@Ar1AnX1x]

the head movement of Bellular always gets to me lmao bro turns into a human pigeon during his videos

[@javelinmaster2]

Maybe this is also why ppl loved the Orc Heritage armor questline. Because it Honored the Heroic Orcs! And yh WoW truly needs more of "I'm Ironman" or "The one piece is real!"

[@antoniojones1356]

“You’ve got no chance against these scarlets, BUT… you could with todays sponsor square space” 😂😂😂 thought that would be it

[@kenny187ful]

In the words of funny bald man, "WoW doesn't have any big sweaty muscular dudes anymore".

[@angryfyce]

I like a lot of the more emotional and diplomatic writing in Dragonflight. It’s nice to see people actually talk about their motivations and grievances. The problem I have is that it’s this is the ONLY thing that’s happening. It’s one thing to have a cutscene where characters reacting emotionally to serious matters, it’s another to spend years on end doing nothing but talking about their emotions.

[@Electric_]

Literally an entire expansion pack with just cutscenes about feelings. Who the hell hired these people?

[@hoothoot673]

I dont see how they can revive this almost dead franchise if they still cant make a real and full expansion. Lore will never be functioned if they keep cutting half of the expansion.

[@itsdannyhoney]

I really love Blizzard handled Jaina in BFA. Giving her both self-reflection, moments of being a total bad ass (battle for lordaeron, siege of dazaralor), redeeming herself in the eyes of her people. I want to see these character developments and narrative more.

[@NoxiD-20]

Heroism is "toxic masculinity," lowers your ESG scores.

[@GrohficSerpent]

Bad writing and brain dead takes lower everything.

[@aaronbooth200]

Facts. All of our heroes are women, the dudes are either cucked or killed off.

[@hoothoot673]

I can see that why the game is dying. They changed tone of the game for the wrong group of audiences that why we have skinny lizard that doesnt look like a dragon.

[@NoxiD-20]

@@hoothoot673 they started targetting the furry/femboy audience and forgot their core audience was balding boomer millennials

[@CharlieBravo777]

Big brother thanks you for your cooperation

[@fengraf1120]

No meme my favorite character in dragon flight bar none is fyrak, Just ONE character genuinely excited to actually do something / fuck someone’s stuff up is refreshing.

[@jshadowhunter]

Those who came to power after the old guard had left are oblivious to the fact that Warcraft was born from Warhammer (or rather, the inability to get the rights to make a Warhammer fantasy game).

[@St0rmTr4p]

It's unforgivable what they did to Arthas, he was THE Licth King, and he became just nothing. Such a bad writing that could be so good if they just wanted, he could have so much to tell and do in shadowlands, but no just use him as fuel for a sword and destroy his soul like he was a secondary character on a side quest.

[@lorecow88]

They didn't forget anything, they're doing it deliberately.

[@apblolol]

The entire sourfang family is a prime example of warcraft heroes. Wounding a titan holding back the legion, standing at the wrath gate against the lich king, leading the horde and alliance against the threat of the old gods and sylvanas. All these epic moments, heroic moments that warcraft is missing.

[@johnteixeira6405]

Can't forget leading the Horde to kill his own son, who was raised as a Death Knight by the Lich King, to bring his body back to be burned at Nagrand.

[@ElmntFire]

@@johnteixeira6405 People meme on the RP before that fight, but it really pulls you into the moment and hypes up the fight cause Saurfang is such a badass.

[@johnteixeira6405]

@@ElmntFire People only meme on it now, when it came out everyone loved it, it's just not skippable (at least when I played it wasn't) so it got super repetitive lol. It's quintessential Warcraft.

[@ChoperJoJo]

I truly miss the violent ambient from WoD. It was badass, no cheerful scensrios, just death and destruction evetywhere

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

Wall of text incoming I don't mind World of Warcraft having more moral gray areas, emotional complexity, and down-to-earth moments. It's harder to pull off than "badass good guy beats up evil guy while epic orchestra swells," but it can be just as rewarding. That being said, I don't think the current writers are clever enough to sustain those themes while sustaining audience investment. Dragonflight, I think, has the opposite problem to what some older expansions had. Whereas BC, MoP to an extent, BfA, and Shadowlands destroyed well-liked antiheroes/sympathetic villains by disregarding the pragmatic side of evil for bland mustache-twirling (and SL did far worse: clumsily tried to backtrack by insisting none of it was the "real her"), Dragonflight delivered by giving us very charismatic and likeable antagonists whose actions weren't perfect but whose motives were understandable, and prevented them from degenerating further. But the conflicts with these characters felt as if they resolved too quickly. Eternus and Chromie, Wrathion and Sabellian (for a conflict between non-villains), and so on only had a few minor spats before making peace. It's like the writers want to have gray morality, but don't have the courage to fully explore the clash between extremes. They couldn't let their darlings be hurt. So the tension fizzled out. Vyranoth especially suffers from this. In an earlier conversation with Alexstrasza, she declared that she couldn't believe her old friend had changed and that revenge was her only recourse; Alex, for her part, was clearly grieved by having to fight someone who she felt she had betrayed. But it only takes Fyrakk going off the deep end for her to seemingly compromise ideals she sacrificed so much for? Really? Vyranoth isn't beyond hope. She's still a cool (haha) character. I love that (10.2 SPOILER WARNING) she's still opinionated enough to tell Odyn what she thinks of his treatment of dragons, because seriously, FUCK that guy. And Fyrakk is still around to fill the niche of "delightfully evil little shit we have to beat up." But... sigh. It could have been so much more. You can have LE EPIC moments between characters who are heroes from one point of view and villains feom another. But you have to earn those moments. P.S. to the comment section: if you use the word "woke" to describe current WoW, you're a fucking moron. Activision Blizzard does not care about minority representation or safety. They care about money. Learn to tell the difference.

[@Boromir2k1]

Ya that Dragonflight teaser was not woke at all...lol

[@Shadowsdeity]

Excellent breakdown. I enjoy softness in stories, heck I even avoid drama RP because I'm an emotionally sensitive person. But things just feel lacking in DF, despite exploring those less-conflicted plot threads. It's just not very exciting to see all these iconic characters talk and talk. The Dragon Aspects have been doing pretty much nothing but sit in that spire in Valdrakken. That's what bothers me. That being said, it's nice to have small side-quests with Nozdormu and others in the style of the renown quests, but... not enough exciting things are happening with the dragons.

[@OrchinX]

"Activision Blizzard does not care about minority representation or safety" Yeah that's funny, because on every job application listing on their website it says that you will be responsible for promoting "diversity and inclusion" in your actions on behalf of their company. Also on their "about us" pages, their employee handbooks, they go ALL OUT for rainbow month, and also it's publicly available that they've spent millions developing tools and resources to more efficiently promote diversity and inclusion in their products. This isn't even to mention ESG scores and quotas, both of which we KNOW ActiBlizz participates in. I know you agree with the intentions of that, that's fine man, but don't gaslight everyone by pretending "woke" is some kind of myth.

[@luciencartervo5356]

The issue is that lack a balance. There’s a room for stuff like the more emotion driven conversational writing and the more heroic and “cool” writing that we got in the past. It pushes forward the characters and we get to actually see reasonings and wants for things. We’re just getting a lot of the second right now.

[@suzandouglass5241]

Malfurion has been AFK since Teldrassil burned. "tell her, WE are coming"... but where was he? Tyrande did all the work.

[@ElKabong3345]

Apparently, they mixed Heroism with "toxic masculinity" and being a hero now is Steven Universe-ing by talking yourself out of your problems and feelings.

[@RexVenge95]

God, I hate that show. Lmao.

[@burnttoast26]

Exactly, in a fucking nutshell. God I hate it so much

[@andrewparsons2391]

I think there's room for both, but one should not come at the expense of the other. And going from one extreme to the other (as Blizzard themselves admit they tend to do) is just going to piss off your existing fan base.

[@hotchowder]

The game has become very feminine.

[@anignorantbrit]

I think the problem is as well that when it comes to DF. I just dont care about all these characters. The is no real connection between us and them. Compare this with Varian, Jaina, Thrall etc... characters we have spent expansions working with, we have a connection too. All these dragons i just couldnt give a shiney shite.

[@cryam6428]

Maiev, Nozdormu, these are our mentor role character. You could teach Maiev how to solve a problem like a Dwarf, or teach Nozdormu how to solve a problem like a Black Dragon, but you don't try to teach your mentor character in the thing they've famous for for their known lives. We need to return to having the hero's journey where the mentor character is there to teach the hero or simply rally the common folk to rise up and strive for better not the other way around.

[@odst123451]

I don’t like the treatment of Alexstraza. They didn’t need to make her a bad guy to give justification to the Primalists.

[@fredrick1176]

Yea. They basically said badass dudes and brutal chicks are not allowed anymore. It’s all touchy feely people trying to win wars with love lmao

[@ShadowTheHedgehogCZ]

It's not that WoW is dismantling Warcraft heroes. It's dismantling the concept of a hero in general, how it's understood in the western culture. And it's replacing it with woke ideological alternative - "strong woman". If you don't think that's the case, you haven't been paying attention. What the progressive types hate is when characters have agency and individualism. The progressive types are motivated by some weird abstract idea of collectivism. That's why they keep replacing strong leaders with "councils" of some kind. They replaced the Dwarf King with a council. They replaced entire Horde leadership with a council. They replaced Forsaken leadership with a council. I am almost certain that Humans and Night Elves are next to receive a council. It's all for the sake of trying to show traditional power structures are toxic (as those power structures were usually held by a man, so they are the proof of patriarchy). In-game explanation for those councils is usually to prevent war and conflict. Which basically means to implement a better progressive system where people just talk their feelings through, and everything is resolved. Well, I guess I could respect the idea if it is really just an honest attempt at solving conflicts without violence. But there are two problems with it. As you said, it's not fun in a game. And the other problem is - if they want to say that they managed to purge the War from Warcraft just by having everyone talk about their feelings and solve their problems by introspectively contemplating their past actions... It's not a good representation of reality. Because in real life this never worked. And any attempt for this being implemented always ended with violence again, even greater than before. Because when the people that would become heroes gave up that mantle for the sake of abandoning violence, the bad guys didn't wait a second and took the reigns, effortlessly defeating what remained of the formerly dominant culture.

[@vitus6302]

I have never played wow but I used to enjoy the cinematics. The Wotlk cinematic was the last time I was blown away by a blizzard cinematic. Nothing that came after was even close to being as epic as that.

[@poundsofslothcigars]

Voss is something that wad truly great that came out of cata not much good from it but she is a major favorite for me.

[@failnervni]

at the beginning of WoW we, the players, watched and supported those heroes (being there as footsoldiers at the camp at wrathgate; tipping bolvar of to lady prestor;helping thrall with his investigation into the threats in rfc and the burning blade) - now it feels like they get humanized and support us as we take the role as heroes/champions time and time again. this feels like its one of the bigger challanges for storytelling going forward - people miss being the no-name and watching some badasses take action

[@vitus6302]

Arthas should have been redeemed somehow. As in redeem himself. Sacrifice himself for the humans or something like that. At least give him and Jaina a son. The last cinematic makes Anduin look like Jesse Pinkman. Humans should have some badass warrior like Arthas was back in the day before the undead campaign started. Personally I was with Arthas the entirety of the human campaign even when he got frostmourne. Kill the scourge/demons no matter the cost. Only when he killed his father did I realize that they were going to turn him into a bad guy.

[@wagutoxD]

And celebrating Azeroth! Damn! Just bring back que Main Story line to the OG world! Nothing wrong with that! No need of "new zones" or crazy plots imo... the world is big enough and the background is solid to hold whatever new adventures you throw at it! Quests like "The Scythe of Elune"... anyone remember this one? What a fucking amazing quest line! Unlock dragon flight and make it slower so the world feels huge like it used to.... I kinda like the gameplay nowadays. I honestly think they're doing a good job with the classes... but damn... I miss the World of Warcraft!

[@MrSherman8er]

The worst was not having Thrall sacrifice himself to kill Deathwing in Cata. Instead they just kept him around as a husk of his former self. Slowly becoming sadder and less powerful. Could have brought him back in Shadowlands in an epic way. Kind of ruined his character.

[@FillerAccount818]

Keep up the great work Bellular!

[@zelashizzz1278]

Imo, put out a filler patch or expansion that will keep people busy want to play it. In the meantime, switch development to WC4 and make a banger of a game. Once that's done, pick up the story from that in WoW just like WC3 did. WoW needs direction and what they're doing now isn't it. Retail is fun gameplay wise but the story is a snoozefest. It needs a pillar like WC3.

[@Ar1AnX1x]

"world of warcraft characters were always larger than life" that's a great point actually, its called 'Epic' Fantasy for a reason, its supposed to feel Epic, but its not anymore, its Milquetoast Fantasy now, I mean look at the difference between how loved Varian is and how meh Anduin is among fans, despite the fact that Varian barely had a character arc in World of Warcraft(most of what we know about him is from the books and Warcraft comic books)but anytime he appeared in the story he was an Epic and badass Warrior King with a lot of Charisma, he immediately demanded your attention and respect as soon as he appeared on the screen regardless of what was happening, even made Jaina cry simply because of how Honorable he was, he inspired confidence and made his people proud

[@Belahl-fo4dh]

When talking about heroic moments through the games history I'm really surprised you did not mention the Saurfang/Sylvanas Mak'gora. This was probably my favorite moment, and it came from one of my least favorite expansions. Saurfang knew he couldn't the fight, but could still save the Horde. The moment he split Shalamayne was really epic. To this day when I run by him in classic, I stop and bow. I really hope he gets some kind of momument in Orgrimmar, right where he stood in classic.

[@battle-brotherthiel1563]

It’s so sad what has been done to Malfurion. To think that in Terror of Darkshore we saw a glimmer of how badass he could be . Also in Greymane vs Sylvanas, you could feel the vengeance and drive of Genn , the highlight of the Stormheim campaign for sure.

[@kakabixlis]

I bet Bolvar is doing the same like Malfurion...holding the fort in Shadowlands... Thank you for the cool vid Michael :D

[@FratinandMadrik]

It needs to be a healthy balance between senseless violence and thoughtful discussion. Dragonflight seems like it's overly filled with thoughtful discussion and no honor. In the past, we might see two individuals get into a fight to settle who's right. In Dragonflight, they'd just talk about their feelings until it's all worked out. And that's fine - sometimes - but that's all we've gotten in Dragonflight. Too many quests and stories about how X is sad, we need to help them, we need to show them Y and remind them that they still matter, talk about how they feel, and now X is happy again, yay!

[@thandrenn]

I saw the thumbnail and immediately got goosebumps as I remembered the video. Rest in peace, my King.

[@Lupinemancer87]

Compared to the Human, and especially the Orc Heritage Armor Questlines, the Forsaken and Night Elven eones felt like a major letdown. It was as if they didn't really know what to do and just threw a dart at a wall and choose whatever it hit.

[@TechbotALPHA]

The Night Elf one was... it wasn't a BAD questline, but it simply was not on the scale of a Heritage questline. Especially after the Orc and Human ones, aye.

[@Specsifier]

I still really enjoy the culmination of the the Onyxia kidnaps Varian chain in Classic. Getting to go through and tie that off was a highlight with the human heritage. Its still wild to me that by level 40 in Classic you're already a hero making a name for themselves and tracking down your kingdom's kidnapped leader

[@rumotu]

Malfurion stuff was the stupidest thing there was. Like it had no meaning. They were saying goodbye to each other like if it's the last time they are together, while in universe they can travel in and out of shadowlands without problems. Like what's they problem with death, if you can just hop into portal and talk with your loved ones and maybe even trade for their return for a few days. Like wtf

[@Kryhakk]

YOU ARE SOOO RIGHT ABOUT THIS ONE MATE! I'm a fairly new player, started WoW in Shadowlands, but I played the story (as much as possible) from the other expacs aswell, and it really does feel like they're homogenising the "heroes" and they feel too... friendly and vulnerable and stuff... kinda loses the WoW feeling doing that. I would also add that getting rid of the horde-alliance conflict makes the game feel TOO different from what it was, pretty generic I'd say, unless they get to pit us together against a bigger threat like the Legion.

[@RockerBoy20045]

nice job! I have played wow since 2005 and seeing people willing to experience the full game by playing the expansions is nice to read 😂

[@Kryhakk]

Oh I think there's plenty of us out there xD even though Dragonflight kinda lacks in the "awesome factor" right now, I feel the gameplay is very fun, and the classes are very fun to play, HUGE step from Shadowlands xD @@RockerBoy20045

[@hotlikesauce]

cross faction guilds will say otherwise :/ SL really did some irrevocable damage to the lore.

[@Skyblade12]

Ah, yes, just what the game needs, more “you suck for choosing the faction the devs have been actively shitting on for over a decade”. The faction conflict needs to stay fucking dead, and anyone who thinks it’s a good thing needs to be forced to do nothing but lose for two hundred fucking quests in a row to see what it’s like.

[@batshine8]

Didn't know they did that to Bolvar, like wtf?! He's been tortured and when finally freed he accepts the responsibility of holding the undead from rampaging across the world only to be chastised as a bad parent because of his sacrifice?! No wonder shadowlands was shit and they dumbed shit down for dragonflight. Tired of World of Peacecraft, bring back the WAR!

[@ScrubLordCasul]

Favorite heroic moment is Varian's sacrifice. Worst use of a character in WoW. WHAT THEY DID TO POOR URSOC IN SHADOWLANDS.

[@KapnRich]

Another issue is having changes and development occurring out of game. Everything needs to occur in game, sure have books etc. That expand on things, but everything must happen in game. Otherwise you're alienating a huge number of players from understanding why things happen and why they should care.

[@ravioliformuoli39]

That’s one of the biggest things I dislike about WoW, right now. All of these “Legends” and “Heroes” are so downtrodden and gloomy. Or they’re offended and angrily talking down other characters. Also, that quest with Nozdormu and trying to change time, didn’t make sense. The result quite literally proved his point. “There are some things that we just can’t and shouldn’t change.” However, he does a complete 180 and said the lesson learnt was that “through compassion, there are things that should be changed.”

[@wvguy7238]

World of TherapyCraft - lets make love, not war, and be honest about our emotions with each other.

[@arthurrodrigues7015]

I completely agree, great video, I had already thought of something similar before, there is a lack of characters to inspire us, whether as a complex character like Garroshe and Grommash, to excite us, or as a legend, an example of a hero, like Tirion and Varian.

[@Davew5183]

Making Warcraft without the "war" has just killed the game for me, I really dont want to run through fields of flowers holding hands with a orc, I want to be running about slaughtering them in fields of flowers.

[@CazaliEiben]

Vol'jin doing almost literally nothing as Warchief, only to be killed off for Sylvanas' arc, which then also got turned upside down, is most likely the biggest FU they ever did to a Warcraft hero. Did they even bother finishing his story arc to become a Loa for his people?

[@JonpaulGee]

Little heads up... just wait till Blizzcon... some more uh....hero ism will be there.

[@JC-ok4yx]

There’s a small subsection of “creative” types who think subverting expectations and moral ambiguity is virtuous in and of itself. Heroism requires an idyllic belief is doing what is “right” or good. Old story tellers were able talk about morality in complex ways, but modern story tellers are more concerned with trying to undo what came before so they can interject their vision. Of course they kill off the heroes with allowing them to be heroes, because then how are they supposed to replace them?

[@CrazyScubaCouple]

9:52 this *BUT* is usually the teacher, the principal, your mom, telling you that _we don't use violence_ even when her son is getting bullied, or the police/judge(prosecutor when you're a grown up.

[@henrikmygren]

Wrathgate seeing heroes of the horde/Alliance bond to attack Lich King. It was failure but the sacrifice of both Bolvar and Saurfang Jr was great. Still best ending of a questline still. And many new player who do this questline are missing the aftermath of it where as both Alliance and Horde seek out Varthimatras in Undercity for their betrayal. That i guess those who play fall of the lich king classic will experiemce now.

[@jasonbullis4163]

They were trying to tone down the great hero concept from legion, bfa and shadowlands but instead of toning it down they removed it entirely. I've just created my own ideas for my characters and just exist and write my own ideas

[@marvelfan281]

I do really like Dragonflight - but I think my biggest criticism is that the narrative seems to happen in spite of the characters, rather than the characters driving the narrative. We're used to the larger than life WoW characters making things happen and we react, but with DF it's sort of the opposite? And I think on paper it makes sense for the players to drive the narrative, but the players aren't the subject of major cutscenes - the NPCs are. So when the NPCs, who are now passive, are who we see in cutscenes, it makes the whole experience just kind of unfulfilling. The major NPCs really just need to take more agency in the story and do things.

[@strawkittycat]

What I really see with this is new writers not wanting to use old heroes/lore and putting down the old heroes in order to try to raise up new characters that they have written in whom the players at large are completely unfamiliar with, it's just bad writing.

[@MrLolguy93]

This isn't just WoW, it's in our culture. Everything is just sissified.

[@PureColumbianCocainum1949]

Thats facts

[@rachaelbalasingham88]

Boys......Listen.......The game was finished a long time ago. How many years can we go on telling Blizzard how to give us the game that we want? All we can do it wait for Riots mmo and then watch Activision Blizzard become even worse (hard to believe I know) under Microsoft as they end up as another low budget, zero imagination £10 a month game pass game.

[@DeathScythe555]

I was done when they killed off my man Varian Wrynn the best characters hands down

[@CainCorvinus]

Warcraft has forgotten that its a game focused around racial discrimination, brutal wars, heroes, villians, and marty's on either side of the war. Not fairy dusted dragons and the power of friendship... Warcraft needs to be properly rebranded to My little pony warcraft adventures.

[@RexVenge95]

Lmao it's practically "World of Hearthstone" at this point.

[@kenny187ful]

It's essentially become a reflection of our own world, instead of being, y'know, a fantasy world. The writers have brought in the poison of our own world and destroyed the escapism that WoW used to bring to people.

[@conorf8091]

When the “devs” get to add characters that look like them and have matching sexuality ideas then yeah it’s all fooked

[@wvguy7238]

The writers have essentially gone the route of the Netflix Witcher show.

[@Shadowsdeity]

@@kenny187ful This is unfortunately what happens when all the original writers have left and Blizzard is so corporate these days. Metzen... I am counting on you.

[@burnttoast26]

The media took one look at Steven Universe and decided that it is what heroism should be now. I fucking hate it. No one is allowed to be actually heroic anymore.

[@ThatGuyBill1985]

Tailia equating her emotional pains to her fathers time sitting on the frozen throne always bugged me so incredibly much.

[@apacalypsagon3758]

Garrosh knew what the horde would become and tried to save us from it. Who wouldn't go bat shit if you arw fighting against the losers who want to make the horde out to be what it is now.