Bench Report: Expander dies for straight wall cartridges

[@larrysteele1956]

Very good video! You touched on a couple of things that I hadn't even considered. I now understand them from your excellent examples and will purchase the a two step rather than a powder feed + expander.

[@daleswanson1784]

I appreciate the well thought out and detailed approach to this comparison.

[@MikeUtah]

Outstanding video, thanks for the effort, and work.

[@MrMetalhead0124]

I use the Redding Premium Special Expander Die for Bottleneck Gun Cartridges and never have a problem while reloading 45 ACP and 357 magnum. The expander die comes with a highly polished finish and has a three stage expander.

[@williamabrahams1468]

Excellent video. Thank you for taking the time to make it!

[@Bang4YerBuck]

Thanks for this video. It has educated me enough to be able to decide on what I want to do.

[@stewm400driver]

excellent. Thanks for taking the time to make this video.

[@paladinhill]

Thanks for an excellent detailed explanation of the 3 dies. I used Dillon, but had brass issues with their expander die back in the 1980's-1990's. I will be using the Lyman M die in the future.

[@richlovin2173]

An excelent, clear comparison. I switched to the Lyman expander dies years ago!

[@harrycallahan692]

Really good information. Quite informative. Thank you!

[@nomamartini1310]

Thank you for taking the time and explaining this. I had many questions and you succeeded in answering all. Thank you.

[@chipsterb4946]

I settled on separate Lyman expander dies for several reasons. Less lead shaving, but I also think you get more consistent bullet insertion. With flare only, there’s more chance of the bullet tipping during seating than there is when the bullet sits on the little step. Something important about those powder through expanders: not only are they tedious to get dialed in exactly, but some cartridge/powder combinations may result in the expander touching the powder. This can be BAD for the reasons mentioned in the video, plus the expander can carry powder particles from on case to another. Learned that with .357 SIG - 1,600 FPS was my only brown pants moment shooting my reloads. Fortunately the pistol was robust enough to handle the excessive pressure.

[@knowledge2you]

A thumbs up on your comment.

[@ozarksgoldwing8367]

Thanks for the video. Very thorough and well thought out. Was having difficulty seating flat base 223 on my single stage press. This appears to be the ticket.

[@hardybirch3630]

Very helpful and informative.....thanks.

[@hereismyusername007]

Great video, very professional.

[@henrysara7716]

Thank you, very clear great video.

[@brucegavin7614]

Very useful video.

[@hardybirch3630]

I add a 9/16" id x 3/4" od o ring under the expander stem locknut which makes it much easier to make adjustment changes. This works on the Lyman and RCBS case expander dies but, I am not sure about Redding. The Lyman and RCBS expanders do not have tooling/cutting marks on the expander.

[@abitnutz6747]

I have a Dillon XL-650 and am moving to a Hornady L-n-L powder measure. I like the fine grained ball powders and have had fits with it leaking out of the Dillon measure. I tried one of the plastic powder bars and found it wanting. At the same time, I am going to separate the powder drop and flaring functions by using a Lyman M-die over the Redding as you recommended. The Hornady measure comes with a funnel/sleeve instead of a through powder expander and I think this will actually work out better. I won’t have to mess with the any adjustment at all beyond the case activating it. I also believe that the drum style powder measures are more consistently accurate than the Dillon style. Redding, RCBS, Hornady and just about everyone else uses the drum style powder measure. I think Dillon is the only one that uses the sliding bar style. I believe there is a reason for this. Have you considered using another measure besides the Dillon? The only downside is that I have to give up my powder check station. As a rampant paranoid, this is definitely going to bother me.

[@knowledge2you]

Interesting you should ask. I am working on a video (hope to have it out before year end) where I compared the Arredondo powder bar (the 'plastic' one), a Dillon X Small powder bar and the RCBS Competition Powder Measure with small metering drum and powder baffle. In terms of accuracy and consistency, Dillon came in first, Arredondo came in a close second and the RCBS came in third. The powder I used to test all three is an extruded pistol powder.

[@abitnutz6747]

Like stick powder? I tend to use fine flake or ball and the Dillon leaks all over. The plastic powder bar was a complete waste. The extra small DIllon is supposed to be used on loads 3-grains or less. All of the loads I shoot are 10 grains or better. I didn't know about the 3-grain recommendation and when I set the X-small to 10.5 grains of Power Pistol, it came out anywhere from 10.3 to 10.7...by that time I had ordered the Hornady. We'll see how a blue press sports a red powder measure. As I said, I also am going to break up the expansion and powder charging by using an M-Die.

[@knowledge2you]

The specific powder I used was Vihtavuori N310 (I used this powder because that is the powder I use in my competition loads). You can Google it and then look at images of it. I would not try and use the Dillon X small for anything over 3 grains. When I tried to use it for 5 grains, I got better results using the small and not the X small. I know when I had a leakage problem with the Dillon, I contacted them and they sent, free of charge, a thicker spacer bar. In the two cases I had this issue, the thicker spacer bar solved the problem. I had this problem when using Titegroup powder, which is a flake powder. If the plastic powder bar you used was an Arredondo, then I am surprised it did not work. The Arredondo is manufactured to be too thick and you have to sand the bottom to make it fit. If too much is sanded off, then it will leak. The Arredondo should be sanded only enough to where it still takes effort to insert it into the powder assembly. You may have already seen it, but I do have a video on installing the Arredondo powder bar. But regardless, it is my understanding the Dillon powder assembly can only go into station 2 of the XL 650. Therefore, to use the Lyman M die, you would need to put the drum powder measure in station 3, the M die in station 2 and the resize die in station 1.

[@abitnutz6747]

You're right about the location of the Dillon powder measure on a 650. Because of the safety arm that pulls down on the powder measure rod, it can't go anywhere but in position #2. If I use the Hornady, I can move the powder charge operation to station #3. I can put the sizer in #1, the M-die in #2 , the Hornady measure in #3, the seater #4 and the crimp die in #5. The hornady comes with a funnel that actuates the powder drop but does not expand. You have to buy a PTX through powder expander extra. Does this make sense to you? Also, the plastic bar I have is the Arredondo. I sanded it down, just like you did, to get a good fit. Unfortunately, it was never ever to become smooth. The bar insert itself was slightly warped and was never able to sit flush with the rest of the bar and caused binding. I really like Vihtavuori powder but due to it's high price and spotty availability where I live, I tend to use Powder Pistol or Longshot.

[@abitnutz6747]

It's been quite a while...are you still doing videos? I've enjoyed them and learned quite a bit.

[@knowledge2you]

Thank you and yes, I do have more videos planned. But as a competitive shooter, I do get a little busy during competition season and with work, etc.

[@abitnutz6747]

Have you tried this?: www.doublealpha.biz/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel It's a powder through expander that fits the Dillon. It appears to use the same two step expander profile that the Lyman M-die uses. While relatively expensive, it doesn't sacrifice a die station. I've bought one but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

[@knowledge2you]

+Al Stern No, I have not. And its caliber selection appears to be very limited. But once you try it, you should make a KZbin video and post it on your channel.

[@abitnutz6747]

I'm thinking removing the screw on portion of my Lyman M-die and chucking it up in my drill press and polishing it up with some 600-1000 grit sandpaper. Based on what you've seen in on your M-die, would you use sandpaper or just a polish like JB bore paste?

[@knowledge2you]

Unless you can ensure you can sand perfectly even across the entire expanding surface of the die, you run the risk of creating an uneven surface, which will exacerbate the problem you are trying to solve. You will see more brass shaving on new brass, but once the brass has been fired a few times, the interior of the case will become coated in carbon residue, which will act as a lubricant that reduces case shaving. Also, I find that I clean my M die (and my bullet seating die and my crimp die) after about 200 - 500 rounds. (New brass will cause more frequent cleaning of the M die and lead bullets will cause more frequent cleaning of the seating and crimp dies.) What you can try is applying some case lube to the expanding surface of the die every time you clean it. You may want to try this before you try polishing the die itself. p.s. It is my understanding that JB Bore compound contains 1000 grit material.

[@abitnutz6747]

I think you're right about this. If I remove any material it will likely be unevenly done. I think I will put it in the drill press and use a polish on it. One that doesn't remove any material, just gives it a nice finish. Are you aware of any other powder measures that work the way the Dillons do? Virtually all other measure seem to be rotary drums.

[@knowledge2you]

To my recollection, the other progressive presses use the drum type. The advantage of that is you can put the powder measure at any station. The disadvantage is you either have to manually activate it (and if you forget, you will get a squib load), or you have to connect it to the shellpate to mechanically activate it. I do not know of the accuracy or consistency of a drum powder measure connected to the shellplate. Dillion's entire press line is progressive presses. So they could rewrite the book when they initially designed their presses. The other companies were in existence and sold single stage equipment. So they looked for the ability to reuse their existing equipment on a progressive. I am getting very accurate charges from my Dillon powder bars (after installing the UniqueTek micrometer). The other advantage of the Dillon design is they offer powder bars for < 3.0 grain charges to magnum charges. One of the top of the line drum type powder measures cannot be used with charges less than 6.0 grains. The other options are to use hand or electronic trickling onto a scale (balance beam or electronic). But this is usually done by benchrest rifle shooters.

[@lytening79]

Thanks for all the time you took to make this video. Both Lyman and Redding should send you checks.

[@stenmoeller]

Do you have any experience with the Uniquetec powder funnels for the Dillon press?

[@knowledge2you]

Sten, I have no direct experience. UniqueTek started offering these after my video was published. I think the ones being offered by UniqueTek are made by Photo Escape Inc. When I look close at them, they appear to be two-step, but neither UniqueTek nor Photo Escape say they are. I know of one individual who uses Photo Escape's powder through for .32 ACP and really likes it. I don’t think UniqueTek offers the .32 ACP version.

[@stenmoeller]

@@knowledge2you Thank you for that. You are right about Photo Escape Inc., and I have since been in contact with Alex Poltorak who has been very friendly and informative. His PTUs (Powder Transfer Units), as they call them, indeed have the second expansion section for the bullet in addition to the flare, just as Redding and Lyman in your comparison test. Furthermore, he manufactures PTUs specifically made for wadcutters, i.e. with longer second expansions. Do see photoescapeinc.com/products/index.html to go directly to his products.

[@knowledge2you]

@@stenmoeller Sten, if you get one, I would be interested in knowing how easy/difficult to set up. Sometimes trying to adjust the Dillon powder measure to fully drop the powder and at the same time put just the right amount of flare/bell on the case (not too much, not too little) can be a challenge. A two-step expansion needs very little flare/bell at the case mouth.

[@stenmoeller]

@@knowledge2you I will. At the time I'm using a Präzipress single stage press, but Photo Escape also makes an adapter so that I can use my RCBS powder measure on that press. I'm very curious as to how easy they are to set up and what the result will be. Admittedly I am seriously considering a Dillon 550, as my round consumption is increasing (not least thanks to having started reloading :-)... I'll get back to you once I have results.