Benefishal - Why Patagonia's "Artifishal" Got it Totally Wrong

A response to "Artifishal" by Liars & Thieves Productions
The film "Artifishal" from Patagonia, comes across with a tone of environmental concern, yet misleads the audience with some massive oversights, and false analogies. The owner of Patagonia, Yvon Chouinard, is a Southern California Billionaire who lacks basic understanding of salmon life cycles, and thinks that fish hatcheries are the same as chicken hatcheries.
Patagonia also falsely equates fish farms to hatcheries. "I see no difference between a fish farm and a hatchery." When, in reality, there is a massive difference. Fish farmed salmon and steelhead are stuck in a pen their entire adult life, leading to disease and lack of nutrition. These fish farms are highly dangerous to the environment. However, they are nothing like the tightly regulated and run hatcheries that Oregon and Washington require.
This short film does an excellent job showing why 'Artifishal' got it completely wrong, and damages the truth of what our fish and anglers need for a continued future of salmon and steelhead fisheries.

[@alfaq654]

I really wish that this video focused more on the benefits of hatchery fish, as opposed to spending 90% of the time focused on listing out all the ways that Patagonia's film was wrong. You catch more bees with honey....

[@marcellelavae]

We need both. I like knowing what the other side believes, how they’re pushing it, and then info I can use to discuss it with others. But then I ALSO want to be able to discuss why hatchery is wonderful, which it is. :)

[@donmichaelnew]

Our feature film is coming. It will take care of your concerns. Thx

[@alfaq654]

@@donmichaelnew Awesome! I will definitely check it out when it's released.

[@micheal4127]

if addicted fishing recommended it it has to be good, cant wait

[@chromequest707]

Lol

[@duckwacker8720]

Ask them why they took pink fishing video down when a few of them were fishing illegally. Fuck them!

[@humboldtfishing7328]

Your first statement simply isn't true. Patagonia did not say that hatcheries are the reason of the salmon decline. They in fact gave a long detailed history of the major blows to our rivers, like dams and loss of habitat before explaining why hatcheries hurt our wild rivers. Some "solutions" are just too good to be true. We can't engineer wild.

[@duckwacker8720]

Hatchery fish do not effect wild

[@brianjohnston4207]

salmonchronicles.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/brannon-afs-hatchery-study.pdf

[@tolt1776]

Hatcheries don't hurt shit dotard

[@TonyTrupp]

@@duckwacker8720that kind of blanket statement doesn’t seem accurate. At the very least they compete with each other for food and habitat. They may also interbreed, diluting the wild genetics.

[@johnbagnall1667]

The major point is we cannot re-create pristine, natural nursery conditions. In order to achieve a semblance of wild anadromous fish populations in the ocean, and in spawning runs, hatchery production is a necessity.

[@torreybanes505]

Saw on Addicted Fishing. Looking forward to the premiere!

[@IMKINDOFABIGDEAL13]

To Dave and everyone involved, this was great. About to share

[@heathbradley426]

Wouldn’t miss this ! I have been a member since the beginning and I will see it to the end !

[@jtparsons7135]

There are many great bodies of water that represent how good a hatchery can make a fishery.

[@mitchelllyell8279]

yet there are more bodies of water that represent healthy wild fish populations with no hatchery fish and managed harvest and catch and release regulations

[@jtparsons7135]

That is true, but hatchery fish won’t destroy a growing or healthy native population either.

[@mitchelllyell8279]

@@jtparsons7135 I actually believe they totally destroy and alter the growing populations of wilds

[@justapro797]

The fish raised from broodstock programs, are eggs taken from wild fish, fertilized by milt from wild fish. So genetics of the wild fish are intact. The only thing the hatchery does, is to allow the fish to live and grow to a sustainable size, without the mortality rate. Then, they stock those fish, so you can actually see a return. The key to all things good... education.

[@pdxmix]

@@mitchelllyell8279 Maybe if you talk about waters that haven’t been damned or significantly altered. Name one on the west coast of the US

[@BHanley165]

Love the film and really appreciate you guys taking the time to spread the truth about our hatcheries. BUT PLEASE, you guys missed explaining the single most important point for 99% of the population who viewed Artifishial. We MUST explain in better detail the difference between the life-cycle of a hatchery fish vs a farmed salmon. There was nothing in your film whatsoever that explains the genetic selection, natural migration, and evolutionary (survival of the fittest) so to speak life-cycle of a hatchery fish in both the river as a smolt, and ocean, and then again returning to its home river despite predation, ocean conditions, and natural swings in the climate of a watershed. It needs to be known that this nearly mirrors a wild fish's life cycle VS a FISH FARM and the lifecycle of a salmon here. SOOO CRUCIAL for those to understand who are not anglers or avid fisherman. General population does NOT know this.

[@MRotchburns420]

I agree, this video seemed to be more of an artifishal rebuttal. I would love to see a follow up that presents the benefits of broodstocking and specific practices that could improve hatchery production.

[@donmichaelnew]

Please watch our next film that is up now.

[@donmichaelnew]

@@MRotchburns420 it was meant to be a rebottle. Please watch our second film that is up now thanks

[@randallstephens1680]

@@donmichaelnew I couldn't find the second film you speak of.

[@TonyTrupp]

The natural selection forces within a hatchery is never going to accurately mirror that within a natural environment. It will select for traits that are specifically beneficial for that hatchery environment. Long term this will ultimately then be at the detriment to the genetic fitness of the wild population, as the wild population’s genetics become diluted by wild fish through interbreeding, and as wild fish are forced to compete with far greater numbers of hatchery fish for food.

[@ridgetoriveroutdoors]

This has been needed for a long time!

[@nate.or.nodate]

interesting and compelling statements being made here too. thanks for sharing. would love to see a rebuttal from "Artifishal"/that following to continue understanding this obviously complex issue.

[@zachdreier3424]

Heard about this from last nights Addicted Live stream. Super excited to watch this video tonight 😁

[@andrewlotz6972]

Lets get it going!!!

[@silverseeker-oregon]

Great job!!! Can’t wait for the full length video

[@SalmonSlayersTV]

This is what I've been waiting for lets go!!!

[@johnmclaughlin8107]

When they stopped stocking the Wilson and Ketches rivers it has caused the salmon run to dwindled. I don't know if it just makes less food for the animals of the sea so they are eating more of the fall fish or other reasons for the decline in fish.

[@FishingTheOdds]

100% ! Love the video guys , I’ll mention the film in upcoming videos in attempt to spread the word!

[@andrewscheel2366]

🤙

[@salmontroutsteelheadermaga5925]

Good idea!

[@heritage4x490]

I may joke around a lot but there’s one issue close to my heart and it’s this issue. I’ve done years of research and readings on this . You are 100% right.. the problem started with man. Today, we have to think outta the box and come up with a sustainable solution. I wish I could type more. But, with that being said... you made a good video! I subscribed...

[@cammontreuil7509]

What kind of research ?

[@brandonbogart7195]

"IT is very hard for a man to understand something , when his salary depends upon him understanding it" Upton Sinclair

[@flippnstixs6286]

Where did you get your information from?

[@donmichaelnew]

Go to our website. Read the Q&As. Read the linked research articles.

[@johnpaulschlegel8430]

I think there are good points made in this video. I grew up in Spokane WA and the Spokane Tribe built their civilization around Coho and Chinook salmon. As a result of dams along the Columbia native migratory fish to Spokane has ceased to exist.

[@willwalker4401]

Been ready, let’s Go!! 😎🤘

[@crrnt2684]

Authentic, honest, true. Nice work!

[@BeautifuLakesStreamsBiologists]

I have no interest in diving into a firestorm of emotional discussion, but I will say many emotionally driven environmental campaigns have caused a lot of damage to our land and waters via unintended consequences and meddling from groups who have no basis in science. I have seen it on the land throughout my career and it is very frustrating. Most of these groups try to condemn science today for events early in the history of development of techniques to improve habitat and hatcheries. NASA would have never reached the moon and beyond if they folded with the first launch pad accident. As a biologist I embrace the incredible value of our wild fish, as I think most everyone does. As a realist, I know habitats have been compromised and they are not all going to return. I also realize there is room to improve habitat as well as the use and function of hatcheries. I believe there is a big win-win here for everyone. I see a future with new styles of hatcheries utilizing formerly untapped water sources. This is due to the advancement of science I am working on. Time and experience on the current habitats I create are required to perfect the techniques since I don't have a NASA size research budget. I have a few adventurous clients who want to help try new ideas. I do firmly believe if we put the energy into the science instead of expensive legal arguments , we will get there faster. I see a new day for the STEP programs ( Salmon and Trout Enhancement Program) that will be more effective than just employing hatch boxes. While some people profit from selling jackets and fear, others see a brighter future. I applaud those with realistic views and desires for healthy fisheries of both wild and hatchery origins.

[@JesseG085]

CAN'T WAIT!

[@micahtron5000]

Worth the wait.

[@fishbeelowme245]

Thank you! It’s about time! Watched the North Santiam in Oregon go from great in the 1980’s to almost zero now! Anti Hatchery folks stopped stocking!

[@mule1ten7]

Can't wait to watch it

[@AddictedFishing]

Let’s share this out there everyone! RUN the likes up!! 🏃‍♂️ 👍 👍

[@puprilla]

This one was pretty good huh

[@jesseq70]

I feel like more should be talked regarding the deconstruction and revitalization of rivers that are plagued with outdated dams and diversions. Like you said in the video dams degrade usable spawning and rearing habitat and that was what brought hatcheries around in the first place. Dam removal = more opportunity for naturally spawning wild fish. Instead of fighting for hatcheries fight for the deconstruction of outdated and useless dams. Also I’m not saying every dam needs to be removed just the ones that provide little or no benefit and the ones that provide 0 chance for fish to migrate past. Nothing compares to a wild fish but unfortunately until more dams are removed hatcheries are going to be a necessity

[@rockytalkndawoods3057]

As a native american, get rid of the dams or it will be an eternal fight. 💛💚🌲💚💛

[@traviskroll417]

Where and when and how can I help

[@kennethhowe]

Looking forward to the premier

[@bigskunk801]

Can’t wait to see it.

[@decoydavesmith]

This is tough subject for me since I came from a bass-fishing background and am trying to learn about anadromous fish now, and also figure out which organizations to support.. I watched Artifishal and agreed it was very biased against hatcheries, but now this video is supposed to be from an organization that supports hatcheries and wild fish, and seems just 100% pro hatchery fish, like the "coexist" part is just a way to hook people in. I watched wild reverence and it was very compelling. I guess at this point, I want hatcheries as far away as possible from the few rivers that can totally support wild steelhead especially. I'm 100% positive we still have wild steelhead genetics around and they should be given EVERY opportunity to thrive, but I also know we have lots of places where we can have hatcheries, even if the sole purpose is to provide fish for fishing guides, sport fisherman, native Americans, Orcas and, God-forbid, commercial fisherman. I do hate they wild steelhead have to compete for habitat with hatchery steelhead and salmon, but there's no getting around that. I'm gonna keep researching, but thank you for this

[@jasonmcgonigal8044]

Do more research definitely!!!! Wrap your head around this there is no pure wild fish …..hatchery’s and hatchery fish (wich are from wild fish) have been around for over a century, straying and breeding in all river systems , if you believe there’s a difference between the two you obviously haven’t caught and eaten many at all!!! If they stopped clipping fish no way in hell could anyone tell the difference, these groups who say different are crooks and liars filling their pockets with peoples money by manipulating kind hearted people!!! Trickery

[@billgo4th]

Finally! Keep it going!

[@iamthelonly1]

Only 18 more hours till this drops!!! Lets gooo

[@lemon-iu7bo]

4 minutes now

[@LarryBlue55]

I am thinking if it would be possible to catch a Buck & Hen Salmon or Steelhead and try to produce through the same system as The Whitlock-Vibert Box there are 4 videos on KZbin. The same idea with a broodstock to re-enter-duce to the creeks that enter the rivers to try and create and see if it would work to start a wild anadromous fishery.

[@fishnbrewddd]

Great video

[@TheFunPopo]

Very informative video, but the narration was too slow. I feel like it will turn some people away from watching the entire video.

[@Wilderness_Recon]

I watched it all but got tired of hearing "the film will have you believe". Just present the facts, there is enough he said she said in the world as it is. But I understand the point if this was to counter artifishal.

[@chromequest707]

There Is a lot of miss information in this video as well🤦, we need hatchery's in some rivers due to loss of habitat but to depend on them? And ask any fishermen if there is a difference between wild and Hatchery fish and wild if they say there isn't there lying. Not saying everything in this video was false there's a lot of good information, but when you weigh up the facts to the misinformation I'm standing with Patagonia

[@MRotchburns420]

I kindly disagree, I’ve caught hatchery fish that fight as hard as any wild fish I’ve ever caught... What would you depend on without hatcheries and increasing habitat loss? Hatcheries are good and should be depended upon, I think the discussion needs to involve into how we can make our hatcheries better. Some of the recent research surrounding circular rearing ponds and wild broodstocking shows we can do better and should be doing better to protect our vulnerable native populations.

[@chromequest707]

The Sacramento river basin is 90% hatchery return vs wild, because of the dams on the major tributaries like the American and feather and Yuba the Sacramento River Basin is dependent on Hatchery fish. If hatcheries were working we wouldn't be seeing these low numbers in recent years, there should be way more fish returning, The Klamath is the same story, several dams were built-in along is course so medication hatcheries were built to make up for lost habitat. And the same story goes low numbers, but on the same river the hupa and Yurok tribal fish management, are for the first time in 100 years after all the mining, logging, development going up and down the river and up creeks restoring habitat, and the wild fish population is skyrocketing, creeks that only saw a couple steelhead every year are now getting hundreds of steelhead coho and chinnok. Same goes with the eel river, a couple years ago the state came up with the eel river recovery program to restore the main river and the spawning creeks and water quality has improved, micro biological, insect life has improved and the coho runs have almost doubled in numbers, so Ya why waste money on hatchery's that don't work when the wild fish do what the hatchery does for free? If hatcherys improved fish numbers we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[@MRotchburns420]

@@chromequest707 I’m all for habitat restoration and that’s great it’s benefiting those rivers. Not all hatchery programs are unsuccessful, the Oregon coast and Quinault nation have very successful hatcheries that produce very quality fish. In Oregon and Washington, many of our rivers that need hatchery mitigation have seen reduced or completely eliminated smolt plants since the 90s and it hasn’t helped populations where mitigation is necessary. It would be nice if the narrative surrounding hatcheries could shift from “hatcheries are bad” to “how can we improve hatcheries to increase wild fish populations”. There’s been some awesome stuff going on with live-spawn wild steelhead broodstocking practices too.

[@TeamGoneCatchin]

The fact that you say "hatchery fish", and not realizing there's way more to it than classifying all hatchery fish the same, is why you stand with Patagonia. Understand the complexities in hatchery fish and realize they are not all the same.

[@chromequest707]

True, there is a lot of potential with things like broodstock program's and things of that sort, but honestly come down to California and see how these hatchery runs are and compare them to all wild. If we got returns of hatchey fish like people "say" there are and would be happy to support hatcherys.

[@ShenpaiWasTaken]

There are some good points here but I really dislike how you keep ragging on the artifishial documentary. Just present the facts/science on hatcheries and let that speak for itself.

[@wilsonflanders878]

Nailed it!!

[@steelheadspacecadet3272]

Great video! Share it everywhere and get involved everybody

[@spiltmilt]

Well done. Simple and concise with a logic and science based argument to the film Artifishal.

[@UpNorthOutWest]

Do you still feel this way spilt milt? Or has your opinion changed

[@jero1918]

Thank you so much!!!!

[@coreycorey2220]

Just got done watching beneficial the content was extremely thought out and well presented hopefully we can get this out to those people who pay millions of dollars to help the environment and fishing and orcas and we asked them to donate millions of dollars for hatcheries so that our children and grandchildren can fish

[@michaelcurtis8277]

Got here from the addicted boys , Instant subscribed. These fish are sacred and to be revered. That’s why I watch the addicted crew, they really care for these fish. It shows. Plainly !!’ Thanks guys !! From Wisconsin

[@KenJohnsonFlyfishing]

You did agreat job of pointing out the misleading information in Artifishal! We all know hatcheries are not our biggest problem for salmon and steelhead returns. Hatcheries are probably necessary in rivers that are dammed up, where the wild fish can't reach the spawning grounds, like the Cowlitz, but why do we stick them in rivers that are still free-flowing, like the Skykomish? Where is the proof that the hatcheries are working at bringing back our salmon and steelhead? You said 75% of the chinook harvested were hatchery fish. Isn't that really because it's generally not legal to retain wild chinook? We spend so much of our tax and energy dollars on hatcheries, I want to see the science that shows it's paying off.

[@zachdreier3424]

Excellent!

[@TheJhandy87]

Time to demolish the Patagonia lies!! 💪🏼

[@skypieper]

I totally agree that the Madison river studies on trout do not correlate to pacific salmon and steelhead numbers regarding hatchery fish. Those studies however are not "lies" as some have said. Perhaps more studies need to be done before anyone can pass judgment.

[@fishmstr001]

FYI...rainbow trout are also not native to the Madison River. The native species there would be cutthroat trout. Surprised to hear a avid angler call a brown trout a German brown trout:)

[@cammontreuil7509]

If we have superconductivity at room temperature we can use that technology to help our fish.

[@tranli04]

Great rebuttal!

[@bssaassin1900]

He's right about hatcheries not being the cause of fish declines but it shouldn't be a permanent solution. Selectively breeding fish will ultimately result in domesticated strains of fish which do not have the same integrity as wild fish. And there are still natural native populations but are low in number and need alot of help. The way i see it a river with a healthy wild fish population shouldn't be stocked(don't fix what ain't broken)but i do understand in current times we depend on hatcheries to support fisheries. Just saying we shouldn't just give up on wild populations and just sit back and depend solely on hatcheries

[@curtisdaniger196]

great video i can 100% back up the fact that hatchery's are needed but also we need to compromise and let some spawn out in the river when the number of fish taken in reaches its max conpasity

[@anothersomebody8195]

I definitely agree, there should be no quota! If the hatchery reaches their quota, open the pens amd let them go wild.

[@brianjohnston4207]

We need to implement the broodstock reintroduction programs on every river in Washington like the ones being implemented on the Snake River tributaries. Unfortunately the ESA is concerned more with genetics rather than abundance.

[@joshrskar]

Good job. I would like to think Artifishal had good intent but I couldn’t even continue watching when they tried to use the effects of the Madison’s catchable trout plants as a comparison to steelhead and salmon hatcheries. Either they are grossly ignorant or made a decision that the ends justified the means and included information they knew was massively misleading. I believe that they should be smart enough that the latter is much more likely. That would make it outright lies and propaganda. I just hope the majority of viewers know enough to spot the numerous false arguments this film presented.

[@justapro797]

Numerous false statements? Obviously you have not watched the Patagonia film.. way more misleading than one comparison!

[@joshrskar]

@@justapro797 I was speaking of the false arguments presented in the Patagonia film

[@calebd4317]

Thank you!!

[@MiriSarawak637]

Wo nice fishing 🐟 man 👍😍👊

[@cnsgains5506]

The one thing we all have in common is we all want more wild fish. Hatcheries are used to supplement the runs we once had. If we want more wild fish we need habitat restoration. There are a ton of dams that are not operating fully and actually costing the taxpayers money every day they remain in place while simultaneously blocking fish passage. We need these dams out! Especially the ones one the snake river which is quite possibly the greatest salmon producing river on the west coast. The bottom line is that we need hatcheries until enough habitat restoration has taken place and wild fish have recovered. But to remove hatcheries before wild fish have recovered would most likely result in extinction.

[@brianjohnston4207]

The problem is they're prioritizing removal of the wrong dams for removal. On the Snake it started with Milner and until people realize that almost every other dam caused the problems on the Snake before the lower dams were even built all you're going to do is waste a bunch of money with nothing to show for it.

[@marcuslarwa9098]

Isn’t the most high sought after salmon from a hatchery? There’s a chef I like to watch on KZbin and he gets his salmon from 2 places. There both hatcheries, ones of the cost of Scotland and the other is from New Zealand. From what he explain those to places have king salmon with the highest fat content, which is what people are looking for in sushi.

[@cammontreuil7509]

I like what was done on the Elwa river. They built a spawning channel. I used to go up and watch them spawn. In Redding below the 299 bridge you can see where a spawning channel was dug. Problem with that is flyfisherman walk on the redds.

[@mattcullum870]

Important information

[@noahkoker9800]

Very good video I'm glad you made it. Artifishal is very biased and I'm thankful you made this to show the truth.

[@donmichaelnew]

THANK YOU. Please forward the link to others. Don New.

[@noahkoker9800]

@@donmichaelnew Me and my group are planning on using this video and the info in it for our college final at OSU so everyone and our professor will know about it. We are making a presentation on all the aspects and benefits that come with hatcheries mainly focusing on the ones that raise Chinook.

[@brandoncheney7596]

Wild-Broodstock hatchery programs seem like a no-brainer to me, well ran hatchery programs save and enhance salmon and steelhead runs. Just look at the broodstock program on the Quinault, it's one of the few coastal Washington rivers that still has a healthy steelhead run.

[@briangrendahl4635]

Keep up the good work. Things seem to be looking up for salmon this year .hopefully it keeps getting better

[@humboldtfishing7328]

A simple solution to such a complex problem always has by-products.. and there is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

[@chromequest707]

I don't know this guy but he speaks fax

[@blakemanning5621]

Mad river seems to have a great program lol.

[@humboldtfishing7328]

@@blakemanning5621 “seems to” ? Because we catch hatchery steelhead there? Of course you can make that assumption based on your own experience but until you educate yourself on the many negative effects on hatcheries you can’t make any real point. I think you want the river to serve the people’s desire to fish rather than have the river function naturally... there is always hope for wild fish and it’s condescending to say that there isn’t. Let’s preserve this amazing resource instead of ignoring the facts and engineering our own “solution”

[@blakemanning5621]

@@humboldtfishing7328 they seem to coexist in that river just fine 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@humboldtfishing7328]

@@blakemanning5621 again, they “seem to” coexist just fine? And what tells you that? That’s just your personal thoughts. And if they aren’t, you can’t come to that conclusion without considering every variable in the problem and using REAL Science- the same science that helps maintain the health of our rivers. Not like addicted fishing says, how that science is “old”... Yeah. that’s easy to say 🤦‍♂️

[@stevemorton9585]

Sir, with all due respect our “way of life” is unsustainable at best but I enthusiastically support the debate.

[@cammontreuil7509]

Mining first killed off salmon in California. Then the dams came and finished them off. If no hatchery in California. Then no fish. There's even a hatchery on the Smith in the northwest part of the state.

[@gamesofcontent]

I watched the hole thing before commenting, but he missed the entire point of the documentary. The entire point of the film is that dams have made it impossible for salmon and Steele head to reproduce where they once did. They then state that hatcheries were created as a necessity to save the salmon and steele head species, but the quality of salmon and strength of the species is weakened when they are inbred in hatcheries. There is also a complimentary documentary they produced called Damnation that covers this topic in even greater detail. The documentary was not incorrect. Your interpretation of it is.

[@anothersomebody8195]

Drive any river in the I-5 corridor and tell me you have the influence to convince those homeowners to let the river run wild through their freshly mowed lawn. They will laugh at you and say they own that river-front property. We have a flood control problem and an agricultural problem. Let the river flood when it wants, and move farming down to the mouths of rivers where the water is more disposable..... neither of those two changes will happen therefore wild fish will never return to their original numbers. I agree with the video. We don't have a hatchery problem. The hatchery was installed to adjust FOR a problem

[@tylerseymour4531]

Good stuff right here

[@LarryBlue55]

There is a difference between fish farm and hatchery fish!

[@SatoshiYamamotoLeftyAngler]

Spot on, sir and group!! You pointed out exactly the same things = misinformation = in Artfishal that I too felt wrong. I don’t repeat each here but let me say one thing. It’s the story about stocking programs were eventually terminated on Madison and other Montana trout. I’m an outfitter/guide who fish and guide those rivers and learned the history. Upon watching Artfishal, I immediately knew that no sane angler (one doesn’t have to be a certified biologist) can mix up trout habitat and steelhead/salmon ecosystem as they have totally different lifecycles!!!! - well, “they” can (LOL emoji here). I just hope that the guide who spoke about the Madison - a very noted and respected figure around here - was just talked about the Madison, no further, and the only that line was cut and used in the film (well, they are buddies). I also appreciate that this video points out what I forgot: brown trout is not a native to Montana rivers. Now they are designated as “wild” but yes, it’s quite a hypocrite that praising the conservation of nonnative species while totally blaming the planting of native species. I mean, we all would like to see abundant wild salmon and steelhead (and I actually like their gears!) and enlightening the public majority is a good thing but misinformation like those in Artfishal is NEVER good! Thank you for pointing out!!

[@josephhuang8043]

Let’s go

[@isaackorman6568]

Might be a different story to stock trout where wild fish populations won’t be able to recover. But stocking salmon and steelhead in wild river,all that’s doing is diluting the wild gene. When we loose that wild gene there gone for ever.

[@Jones90090]

I don’t like those hatchery steelhead mingling with the native steelhead either. I think it would be best if the hatcheries were established in the bottom 1/16 or 1/8 of the river. I believe hatchery fish rarely migrate too far above their hatchery of origin. This would hopefully keep those genes somewhat unblemished. To sweeten the deal, deem the river above the hatchery a fly fishing (no beads) only section & no fishing from the boat. I’m not trying to be a dick but here are some small corrections on your last sentence - **They’re gone forever**

[@mitchelllyell8279]

@@Jones90090 i wish this worked, but what we really need is true wild rivers with true wild fish

[@justapro797]

The fish raised from broodstock programs, are eggs taken from wild fish, fertilized by milt from wild fish. The genetics of the wild are intact. The only thing the hatchery does, is to allow the fish to live and grow to a sustainable size, without the natural mortality rate. Then stock those fish, so you can actually see a return. The key to all things good... education. Read up on hatcheries.

[@andrewwood4013]

@@justapro797 If you produce fish in a hatchery, it doesn’t matter if it’s from brood stock or not. They do not have fight or flight instincts. They live a enclosure that makes them susceptible to disease and parasites. They haven’t acclimated to their natal waters. They haven’t been sustaining themselves on organisms found in the river ecosystem. When they’re release, they enter the river with thousands of other fry and travel towards the ocean like a cloud eating everything in sight, straining the natural balance of life. These hatchery fish are vastly inferior to wild fish and will never produce the fishery of your dreams. Salmon and Steelhead are doomed. We can’t change the climate (international), we have a very small voice in dam politics, hatcheries have never worked, habitat restoration and human behavior are the only levers that can impact change. If you want to save these fish, fishing practices need to change. Otherwise, it’s reasonable to conclude that wild salmon and steelhead will not be around in another 25 years.

[@andrewwood4013]

Even if we do everything right, it’s possible that international fishing fleets and climate change will deal the final blow. If you want to make a difference, change your behavior and support wild fish. Write your congressmen, donate to conservation and restoration efforts, and lessen your impact on salmon and steelhead. Simple.

[@kylecox5880]

Addicted sent me here!

[@boblove6865]

While I agree they mis represented many things in the film. There is no denying poor hatchery practices have had an impact on wild genetics. To quote the legend. " why isn't there a broodstock program on every river". There is no turning back and the Dams will not be removed. Even if they were. You can never bring back the 100s of feeder streams that were filled in for logging roads. All that habitat is gone. The rivers that can recover like the Elwha should by all means be restored. The genetics were trapped above the dam for 100 years. Truly an amazing story. These rich guys are way off if they believe that is an option on the Columbia or many other rivers. Hatcherys are what is left. Support sound science and tight lines! Stock em and they will come!

[@graysonphillips5383]

Go Dave!

[@christophermanila5476]

Most of those scientists haven’t spent 1 day actually fishing lol I’m from BC and had a young guy going around telling anglers that his sockeye looked like COHO !! And they shouldn’t keep it and we could not go on spots ! Lol because was trying to tell me coho lose there spots !

[@brandonanthony9488]

Yeah but you have hybrid and gmo fish coming from hatcheries

[@scottwilson4019]

Thank You to all the volunteers @ Hatchery and Wild Coexist for educating all of us.

[@joshuawilliams-rq4nc]

Let's go let's here the truth

[@oak8728]

I have such mixed emotions from both films. I’ve seen success in hatchery programs and I’ve seen those that scrape by, lasting on the body of water they’re blessed with. I think hatcheries need to do a better job diverting inlet water into multiple locations. Concentration that currently happens as popular hatcheries is a sure lack of diversity in the plant.

[@lucasholmgrenmusic]

The problem is that there is massive regulations that prevent hatcheries from doing more diverse plants. It would be wonderful to plant fry in spawning creeks that need supplementation, then they could imprint on those creeks and build up the population. But its not allowed.

[@TripleSixFilms666]

Why don’t they put hatcheries for salmon and steelhead in as many rivers as possible. Release hundreds of millions of smolt. Just an insane amount each year. Build a processing plant tied into the hatcheries, so instead of trawling for salmon commercial wise you can use the tens of thousands of salmon and steelhead from the processing plant to distribute across the country. So it’s always fresh, as natural of salmon as possible. I can see the hatcheries just pay for itself and let alone the fisherman who want to fish have a surplus amount to go and get some.

[@anglertales]

I'm stoked to share the TRUTH with the misinformed people!!

[@prescribedburn1068]

Too bad most all hatcheries and fish ladders don't do anything for sturgeon. Dam removal probably needs to happen. Wish it was promoted more here. Wonder what the "Damnation" video review would be...🍻

[@muehahahaha]

And what about the problem with genetic diversity?

[@DSRenner]

A well run hatchery takes that into account.

[@nicholasschley]

I agree with what you saying but there are studies done that say only 1.3% of hatchery salmon survive compared to up to 31.5% of wild fish survive. And I do think that there is some value in the artifishial film. But I definitely believe in something’s you say. I just think you shouldn’t smack talk Patagonia. Because we all know somethings they say are true.

[@anothersomebody8195]

Then why is it that half of the fish we catch are hatchery? By your math, there must be a dismal amount of wild salmon born.... which is the entire point of this video.

[@nicholasschley]

@@anothersomebody8195 I don’t know man. but I do know that the artifishal film wasn’t all wrong. I love hatcheries i believe that all there trying to do is make a sustainable fishery. But for some reason the numbers keep going down.

[@anothersomebody8195]

@@nicholasschley maybe it's the environment they live in that's at fault, rather then the environment they reproduce in. If 31% of wild fish survive, then why aren't they reproducing way faster than the 1% of fish that are hatchery raised? The math is flawed.

[@nicholasschley]

@@anothersomebody8195 humans always want to be in control. Anything in this world they think they can just do what ever with it. Hatchery fish are surviving better simply because of humans. Many wild salmon/ steelhead don’t get the chance to spawn in a river. Honestly there’s a part in everyone that wants a place to be wild. Every true fisherman’s dream of going to some wild place where there are millions of wild fish. So to answer your question wild fish are taken from their river and their fry are created into hatchery fish. In some spots wilds can’t spawn. Is there not a message here. Some humans don’t care about living things and humans are never going to stop. If there was a healthy population of wild salmon we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And I mean this in no disrespect but I care about salmon and steelhead and I believe hatcheries aren’t the only reason the numbers are going down. But I believe humans are the reason.

[@anothersomebody8195]

@@nicholasschley Humans are almost certainly a majority of the reason. The question is, are human hatcheries the problems, or are humans the problem outside of the hatcheries. If so, what is the fix. If not humans, then why doesn't the removal of hatcheries fix the "problem"... Have you seen the news that came out last month about car tires and the UV chemical in them?

[@garyjohnson4778]

So what was Patagonia's vested interest? Your is obvious.

[@dorsalfishing]

I love the old film clip at 14:50. 25#er, 15#er, 30#er, as two more flop behind him that are pushing 40# but that's a whole new can of worms to get into😉

[@joehills3689]

Can't wait for this!! Finally some good, science based, legit info on hatchery fish and how important they are!!

[@joehills3689]

@John Brennan Follow the money on these "studies". Properly raised hatchery fish and brood stock programs are good for everyone.

[@joehills3689]

Ok....sound like you need a hug. Good talk...

[@joehills3689]

@John Brennan Absolutely!

[@dave9351]

Science shows "that premise" is right, (not wrong). The evidence clearly shows in multiple examples that streams and rivers that are left to the wild salmon to procreate, is vastly better than introducing "farm raised" salmon to satisfy the commercial and recreational fisherman. Although this is about the loss of wild salmon vs hatchery salmon, it's also about the Orca population... fascinating that the Orca pod(s) off Spain are attacking boats lately. One has to wonder about the correlation between the oceans over-fishing, warming, etc and the Orca's anger (or at least it seems that way) Incredible to think that Elon Musk is on record saying : "the world needs more humans" But, hey, I've been a fisherman, diver, surfer and ocean lover all my life... (72) and lo and behold, I lived in Ventura; (Patagonia headquarters), so I guess I'm biased ?

[@MrWienere]

This is wrong and so is the message that artifishal was trying to portray. Rivers can only hold so much biomass and many factors can affect that bio mass. Water quality, dams, runoff, even temps can all affect biomass. What artifishal is trying to say is if we remove the invasive fish then the native natural reproducing fish can thrive with no competition, that’s if no other factors come in to play. Hatchery fish do not help rivers IF stocked with the wrong fish. Most fish bring disease and some bad genetics if they reproduce with native fish. Each river is unique with its own eco system and we can’t just stick any fish into that water. It’s just a waste of money. Colorado is a perfect example, with most of the rivers not meant to sustain high biomass of trout, we do however, heavily stock the rivers with trout in order to keep the park and rec game alive. The question is, does the cost outweigh the profit.

[@anothersomebody8195]

In some ways though, the dead hatchery fish create biomass with their decomposing bodies.

[@marcuslarwa9098]

I’m sure the popularity of sushi hasn’t help the fishery either.

[@bigbc5293]

Here in bc hatcheries brought back our coho and chinook fisheries in our lower mainland. Chinook being the primary food of the southern resident killer whales not only fo we get a sport fishery but whales get fed. For Patagonia billionaire to compare hatcheries to fish farms is just plain fear mongering.

[@daviddewald4155]

the truth is coming!!

[@reidrayfield6685]

That fish on the fish farm had whirling disease. Hopefully that wasn't in the U.S.

[@justapro797]

In the last five years, Michigan has decreased the number of hatchery Salmon that it planted from 2-4 million, down to a mere 100,000, in the enire state. This was done on the belief that there was no longer enough forage for so many fish, due to invasive species. The runs at spawning season are now only 5-10% of what they were. Meaning, less hatchery fish does not increase natural fish. An example: my hometown river, where 6 years ago the harvest was around 10,000-12,000 fish, down to merely a 1,000-1,500, the last 2 years. The Michigan DNR, has now said they are going to raise stocking efforts, but have not said on what scale. Hatchery fish and wilds can MOST definitely co-exist !! Without hatcheries, most fishermen would forget what Salmon tastes like.

[@cammontreuil7509]

You people are lucky you have salmon. There're an invasion species in your waters.

[@bssaassin1900]

Salmon never naturally spawned in your waters they don't belong there. This discussion is about the loss of habitat in their native range and what should be done to improve it. Hatcheries are the solution for now but habitat and wild fish restoration should be a main goal