The Big Problem with the Traditional American 36" Handle Felling Axe

In short a shorter 28", 30" or 32" is a much more versatile and efficient tool for most trees you are ever likely to use an axe to fell. of course having a 36" isnt a bad thing in a collection but for me the 30" is what i grab 99% of the time.
also somewhat a review of council tool dayton pattern axe and comparison to hults bruk hultafors, rinaldi, ochsenkopf and muller axes.

[@SkillCult]

Good one as usual. For me at 5' 10", 30 inches is about my limit for an all-rounder and a bit annoyingly long still. as you said, it's the bucking of vertical notches without knocking your nuts, and the clumsiness of extra length in limbing and general handling that are the main issues. I also use an axe one handed so much that I prefer a head that allows easily enough for that, so about 2.5 lb.

[@glenurquhart2300]

Excellent video Ben 👍👍🪓🪓🪓💪 In the past I have not cared for the Dayton pattern because it was stickier in the summer than I cared for. However. After chopping over 2 cord of firewood this past winter. I have found a a great purpose for that shape and thinness of the blade's cheeks. As I buck with the size and species of wood I have been. I only chop 1 side of a typical bucking v notch . As the blade drives in deeper. A split of firewood pops off the round being bucked. I found that with the thick cheeked axes with high centerline's typified by the Tasmanian pattern. Split off lots of small splits . With the thinner, hollowed or flat cheeked axes like a Rhineland , my TT Michigan, Rafting, or similar thickness bladed axes . Cut deeper into the log before the split pops off. Makes for bigger splits of firewood. Which is very benificial to me. I think I will get a 3 1/2 or 4 lb Council Tools Dayton pattern to use this coming winter. Again great information and video !

[@tigweldNY]

Always glad when you put out a new video. You're one of the best to it, and my personal favorite to listen to on the topic. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience with us all these years without any of the typical youtube silliness. It's been very useful insight and also entertaining and therapeutic. It's very obvious you are driven by passion and curiosity and are true to the art, and it's history and evolution. Nice touch on the ending btw lol. Thanks again.

[@tigweldNY]

I find myself patting myself on the back when you, in your videos, confirm/reinforce my own findings or opinions or technique etc... lol. Much respect.

[@Joey-L]

I only have one axe with a 36 inch handle which I thought would be useful for big log challenges, but I find it awkward and my accuracy suffers so much so that I rarely use it. Great video too.

[@docgonzo3517]

I'm 6'4" which isn't too far above average size but use a CT 36" handled axe as a general purpose axe and find it great for bucking so guess YMMV. I can be close to the log stood right behind without that handle being in the way or hitting me in the balls but a lot could be dependent on size, even at similar overall heights since folks can have different leg/torso/arm length ratios I guess. That said I carry 2 axes when doing end to end processing and the thinned out felling ones for the dropping the tree and a second with different grind, or weight or some other niche feature as needed for the other stuff such as heavily clipped toe for close to ground clearance etc for the edge and other reasons you mention.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Funnily enough i am also 6'4", i mean if i stand absolutely straight behind the log and only swing with arms you can sort of use a 36" but you lose a lot of power that way

[@rogerrobinson4446]

Council's 5lb. splitter and 6lb. flathead fire axe go great on 36 inch handles. They hit a home run with those in my opinion. Great splitters. Sorry for being off topic. Nice video.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yeah splitting 36" is fine because you arent limited in your swing

[@robbowman5857]

Definitely don't want to be handling your nuts whilst using an axe 😂

[@1südtiroltechnik]

"Also for good balance, the greater part of the mass should be below the handle which is therefore mounted at or close to the butt. A handle mounted at the middle of the head is not favourable for balance and directional control in an implement used to strike at an angle and it is only rarely so placed. It is normal for the handle of a stone hammer to be mounted centrally because it is used to strike at right angles to the workpiece and both ends of the head are used." from: Australian stone hatchets : a study in design and dynamics by Dickson F. P (1981) From reading the Book i can say that what applies go Stone Axes or Hatchets also applies to our Steel Axes and Hatchets.

[@aussiehardwood6196]

I learnt some stuff in this video.

[@helterskelter156]

All good points. Then again, one thing that you may have forgot to mention is personal preference. For example, I love my 36’ Jersey axe. After minor modifications to the grind and edge, I find it pleasurable to use for felling and bucking. At times, tools will just “speak to you”. You won’t always be able to pinpoint why you prefer one tool over the other, or make sense for a certain preference. That’s the beauty of having all these choices.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yeah some personal preference but no idea how you are supposed to buck efficiently without making huge notches on smaller logs

[@helterskelter156]

@@benscottwoodchopper It’s not as big of an issue in practice, as it is in theory. All these intricacies abd nuances are quite exaggerated. We’re really talking about a basic, rudimentary task - chopping wood.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@helterskelter156 I would argue the opposite, that it is a bigger issue in practice than theory. Theory would suggest 6 inches more handle length shouldn't make that much of a difference but see how much more work you get done at the end of the day for instance in a coppice wood with a shorter axe and lighter head compared to a long axe. Sure you can drive nails with a club hammer but its more satisfying and pleasurable to use the right tool for the work. All these odd axes exist for a reason

[@helterskelter156]

@@benscottwoodchopper The argument, however, as mentioned by you was presented to the average (casual) user. As one who uses an axe only as frequently as I wish to do so, and who own a multitude of axes, I can say that it makes not much of a difference to me. Perhaps it is a matter of getting used to, or perhaps it’s the ape factor relative to height, but either way I grab my 36 inch Jersey more frequently than not.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@helterskelter156 yes thats entirely the point, the casual user who wants an axe to limb, buck, fell the odd tree would be far better served with the shorter more flexible use axe. Not the 36" felling axe. In europe 28 to 32 is normal size to see

[@1südtiroltechnik]

I agree with you on all Points and i also think its a lot smarter to use the specialised axe instead of the universal axe for everything, so taking 2 specialised axes is very smart and also my pick, nice video nonetheless! About the heavy Poll on the american axes: I think its a thing from the time before 1900 (more precise i think about 1850-1870 it started, so when the woodchoppers could afford cheaper, thinner, lighter, more flexible, stronger crossut saws). Before this, i read, they hated the "misery whip" and did not like to use it. It wasted less wood but was slower so they didnt really care even in central europe and we know how in America they wasted even more wood so the saws were adopted even less readily but they got the better saws sooner so i guess it cancels out. From "the american axe" Book i got that the American axe was already looking very similar as it is today in 1790, so with the poll and horizontal lay of the head, so well before any useful and affordable crosdcut saw. Thus they need to make horizontal hits to chop the Kerf. If you cut horizontal you want an axe that comes to lay horizontal alone. The american/british settlers only brought axes that lay almost vertical and then made them so they lay horizontal. If, after the wide adoption of the saw, they were consequent with the improving of the axe they probably would have made their horizontal laying axes so it would lay 45°. (The recommended Angle in felling, as we today know. I didnt look into this variable any more yet) So: 90° to 0° to 45° In Europe we started started with axes that lay 90° and used them until ~1800-1900. After this we went to 45°. We didnt go to 0° since our trees and forests are already clear cut in the middle ages (generalisation) less numerous, smaller so/and we also never needed a more or less radical design. To where do the Timbersports axe edges point? To the floor or to 45° relative to it. So it must not be important enough to have an axe which lays horizontal to shift weight from the Blade to the Poll. (Also: Most think the Axe is pretty much finished developed! I say no. There are still improvements to be made. (There is for example a special Fire Axe, that was developed just 15 years ago!) But having Ideas is cheap, manufacturing is expensive...and the Market is tiny) Also when you use a Saw and a relativly thin bladed axe like the Müller Beaver, then sticking is a much smaller Problem i found. In this case the thin blade nearly parallel blade and sharp angled edge is more efficient.

[@zksurvivor]

This is a gold video. I'm shocked it doesn't have 100 times more watches.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

KZbin do be like that unfortunately

[@dennisobrien3618]

I got used to seeing you with longer curly hair; almost didn't recognize you. I don't know how this vid slipped past me originally--usually I catch yours as soon as they're posted.

[@1südtiroltechnik]

Personally i like a 60 to 65 cm handle. I find with a 70 cm i swing too far and hit with the Heel and nearly the handle. A Head with 800 to 1000 g is really nice for long chopping for me. An Edge that is 13 to 15 cm long. It makes hitting branches easy and saves the handle. (It was found out by Reissinger that for these Masses these are the best Edge lenghts which cut the most Area of Wood. Less and sticking gets over proportional worse, more and your cut area is maller aswell. It of course changes with all the variables which we have in our Work, Tools and Wood.) Idk which Hang i prefer, normal or closed - i did not yet test to compare. Hickory or Ash Handle. Its cheap, available and is customizable. There are Plastic handled axes but they got a stupid Form and a stupid head form!! A Handle that is double curved, which we commonly use. A straight one i dont use because i dont work with the poll or rarely. Really strongly customized i have the Handles not, expect thining. An Edge that is 14° that is 25 mm long, with a secondary bevel of around 20°. I chop Common Spruce in tandem with a crosscut saw, limb but never buck. Im using the Müller Beaver Axe 800 g, 70 cm so far. Handle is to long for me (i cant just grasp forwards, handle form and angle is dofferent there!). Blade is nicely thin, could be thinner from the factory but its again a compromise. I mae it thinner. It is the Axe which is in the TOP 3 of Axes shich can be bought from a Firm. I would even go any say its the best axe in the World for that price range! (70 €!) (The other axes are either more expensive, lower quality, worse forms...or not available anymore: ORIGINAL ILTIS FROM 1960!)

[@kurts64]

Good stuff mate. Second your opinion on open/closed hangs, open drives me nuts. Worth spending a bit of time during the hang or edge profiling to knock it in a few degrees. Muller canada is a laser beam limber, hb 1.5 a classic, and you had that 36 cutting nice!

[@brettbrown9814]

Excellent presentation!

[@johnclarke6647]

I have quite a few axes, some with 35-36” handles. What I have more of is chainsaws. I have used an axe since I was a boy. I take an axe with me when I cut with a chainsaw, usually one of my Boy’s axes - I have several. My favorite cutting axe is my 50 me on a tree cutting job.year old 4# True Temper with a 31” handle. However, I can still cut with one of my longer handled axes if I desire. I don’t worry about hitting the ground. Like my chainsaws - if I dull out an axe or chainsaw I just grab another one. I do not cut with dull chainsaws or axes. This is why I carry four chainsaws and two axes with

[@namelessxyz5218]

Interesting Video Ben! 👍🏻

[@jeffreyrubish347]

I've come to agree with you that a 36" is unwieldy at times. Mostly I now use 28" to 32".

[@axesofoz717]

Nice video Ben. 36 inch handle is definitely awkward for most work. Might have been useful in the days when people were felling huge diameter trees like Mountain Ash here in Australia. I have one axe on that size handle and just pick it up occasionally but never use it. Agree about the 4 pound weight for a working axe, feels quite light once you get accustomed to it.

[@TheudBaldM]

12:15 Ben, did you also find that kind of closed angle is great to finish the stump in a coppice so it's really low above the ground?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yeah just great all round for up to 8" trees

[@KevinsDisobedience]

Fair enough, decent for felling big trees only. And bucking big logs, I guess, although I don’t think that was done much if a saw was available. Is that the same Bieber I have? Mine looks bigger somehow.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

I think saws came in 1850? Might still buck the top off and an axe cut end is easier for horses to drag from what im told. Biber is 1.4kg extra wide

[@KevinsDisobedience]

I mean handsaws, not chainsaws.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@KevinsDisobedience oh chainsaws didnt come in till the 1930s in a serious way

[@eddgaiger951]

I recently got the council Dayton and put it on a 75cm hultafors handle. It does make it a lot nicer to use for bucking. I’m finding it a bit sticky in hardwoods, not sure it that’s normal for that pattern or it’s just the grind I’ve put on it. Great vid

[@Ve-suvius]

9:43 Definitely not a standard looking axe. Good points made in the video.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

yeah not the most common but you can see similar in shapes in various belgian, french, spanish, portugese and italian patterns. closest german would probably be harzer

[@Ve-suvius]

@@benscottwoodchopper Yes, I think that shape can also be seen even in third world countries. Jungles..

[@MattKeevil]

36 is definitely too long for me to buck even when standing on a log, unless the log is very large. I have been considering setting up one just for felling though, with a 34-36" handle and this video has got me thinking about it again!

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Yeah most of the time 30" to 32" is what i use standing on a log for bucking unless its like 20" diameter.

[@sooziewho]

Good ending 😂

[@adamgreenizer]

Axe everything

[@Running-with-skizers]

Great video ben definitely subbing

[@glenurquhart2300]

Is that a Greek pattern you showed and bucked the top of the tree with ? Looks like another great shape . As does the Rinaldi Calabria.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Its a italian pattern, also seen in france and spain

[@scottishcottagerenovation]

Nice video 😊

[@myableways]

I really need to make a shorter handle for my Calabria. It came with a 90 cm(36”) handle, and it’s not great om that. I’m also curious about that strange looking axe you’re bucking smaller logs on the ground with. Isn’t that a French type of axe? Where can one look for it?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

You can just cut the calabria one shorter. Yeah the french have similar axes this one is italian though. La frontier outils has them 'bergamo pattern' specialy made by rinaldi

[@myableways]

@@benscottwoodchopper I will make a new handle since I don’t like the one that came with the axe. It doesn’t fit properly in the eye, too small. I thought I recognized Rinaldi’s stamp on the axehead when I watched the video again. Perhaps I’ll get one and try it out, since I’m using a lot of those smaller trees that you think it’s good for.

[@Channel1rm]

What pattern is that closed hang axe you show? It reminds me of the French talabot miners axes. They look like an interestingly useful axe for various tasks, but I wasn’t sure how they would fare bucking. Maybe not so well on a 20” handle. But still worth keeping an eye out for a head!

[@benscottwoodchopper]

From the best of my knowledge its called a genoa or begamo pattern. Its 1.25kg

[@Supwisebs]

Ben! I'm disturbed. Been keeping an eye out for a 1.3kg calabria for a while, and it seems that Rinaldi has recently rebranded as BR Rinaldi, and now all of their new stock is wedge-fit rather than slip-fit. The calabria pattern is missing from their line up, seemingly replaced by the "lavagna" pattern. To quote Jay Leno, "have you seen this? have you heard about this?"

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Eh? www.flli-rinaldi.it/portfolio-item/art-330-scure-2/

[@Supwisebs]

​@@benscottwoodchopper I told you I was disturbed in the head ;) Thanks for linking their site, I wrote them an email.

[@Supwisebs]

@@benscottwoodchopper You've got a collectible. "Hello. Unfortunately we don't produce this axe anymore (we sold very few pcs in the last years, can make just for 200-300 pcs...) but we have on stock the others weights. Also nr. 3 that is about 1100 gr. Let me know if for you is ok and how many pcs do you need. Thank you Rinaldi Enrico "

[@benscottwoodchopper]

@@Supwisebs ah what a shame :( still have some cool axes but the calabria was great

[@HighWealder]

Axe choice also very much depends on your build and strength

[@benscottwoodchopper]

As a 200lb 6'4" manual labourer the typical 4lb 36" axe is too big and heavy to use all day

[@bearwoodcraft3591]

What where’s the Barnet gone that was your look

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Kinda annoying while working in dusty demo work

[@ericlefebvre4288]

Sorry if I missed it, what axe is that blue one with the wide bit?

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Müller hammerwerk biber 1400 extra wide

[@daweed4255]

Iltis canada in 800g or 1000g? 2cm of blade differenz

[@benscottwoodchopper]

Iltis 1000 or muller biber 1000. 800 is fine but the 1000s have that extra edge and weight to really cut well

[@daweed4255]

@@benscottwoodchopper dacht ich mir, danke dir!

[@scottsather602]

Wow, I used think chainsaws were dangerous.

[@benscottwoodchopper]

They are! Even a blunt axe can cut straight through a leather boot. Chainsaws are still more dangerous though. It depends on experience