Besiegers - Paragons in a Sea of Mediocrity

[@Cris-bu3my]

6:09 Actually, Totter is to this day the only operator that can actually attack invisible enemies. The others just reveal them, which allows other operators (and themselves) to attack them. On the other hand, Totter attacks them without revealing them, so others won't be able to hit them. Aside from that, good vid, as a Rosa simp I always appreciate people talking about her, and I find her class interesting from a meta standpoint.

[@coldcallerloopy]

Yeah I think Besiegers are cool in concept but ultimately need some more fine-tuning. And yeah Totter can't reveal them but for 4*s only makes him near essential for some tough enemies and event gimmicks

[@abrahamwijaya6631]

​I like totter Because HG lazy gimmick is either they make enemy invisible or bulky them with shield or evade craps. this is why I love totter. He just slap back HG and say: you created me and still didn't think about my gimmick 😂

[@META_mahn]

@@coldcallerloopy Totter absolutely clowned his way through Here a People Sows. He was a big part of cheesing multiple parts of otherwise really annoying map design on HG's part. I think that's really the interesting thing about Arknights: We grab the closest 6* to beat the stage the way it was intended to play power against power. We crack open the infinitely more interesting bins of 5* and 4* units when we need to *cheese* a stage. We've talked on Totter, but I want to talk on Lappland and Shamare. Lappland is obvious -- any time an enemy appears with an annoying gimmick, try Lappland. Silence removes the gimmick, she can permanently apply it, whatever, you're done. Shamare reduces enemy DEF by 50%, enabling physical DPS squads, but more importantly, she reduces enemy ATK by 50%. This allows you to tank enemies you otherwise *really* shouldn't be able to tank, such as Andoain, Talulah, Patriot, and Endspeaker. During Shamare's downtime, pop Medic Silence's drone to rapidly restore your tank's HP, use Tuye's skill, or really, just a variety of techniques are possible. Typically these techniques won't last long, but eventually Shamare's skill will cycle back up, and you can continue the loop.

[@cirnobyl9158]

Totter really hits above his weight class as a 4*. His S2 hits pretty hard against a single target, but it can also be used against up to 3 mobs at once. Even without an invisible enemy in range, he still performs quite well, and I got value out of him in TN-4 Ultimate.

[@striderone7426]

i dunno about this guy, first an obsession with wind and now he's besieged. what is he trying to hide? who is after him? is it the sister of breeze, gale force or their mother hurricane force wind after him? why did he end up in this predicament in the first place? tune in next time! ((in 3 months) actually 17 months))

[@cefrinaldi8060]

The thing about Besieger is that they are design for elite and bosses, being the opposite of deadeye. And i agree that this archaetype was built around rosa that make lower rarity suffer. Still, they all have huge attack so it isnt really that bad for totter. I mean yeah he cannot always be at his fullest but high attack and multitarget are already enough for most content. We dont have that many invisible enemies anyway.

[@coldcallerloopy]

Yeah true, I just think for the non-6* Besiegers there's just a little more to be desired in terms of countering specific enemies and gimmicks

[@Emptyness_Void.]

My Waifu: Toddifons is good as a normal Besieger ngl. Her S1 is great to purposefully target Elite enemies within a wave of Trash mobs and her S2 is just general high attack with slight AoE physical damage Well, she's also good at killing those nasty Sarkaz enemies

[@demilung]

They're fun. Totter is especially fun when he shoots those sleeping knights without waking them up

[@sibericusthefrosty9950]

Kinda sad that Erato can only make enemies sleep with S1, otherwise, she would be exceptional in isolating her target with sleep; this so it allows other operators to deal with trash mobs, while she deals with the heavy unit. As for Toddifons, her S1 is a great support skill, since she helps redirect ally DPS to a potentially dangerous target that needs immediate elimination. Also, Toddifons is still a great unit to have, apart from the aforementioned skill, as she has strong DPS, just in case you can't get it any of the 6* Besieger Snipers.

[@vanzeralltheway8638]

Yeah, i wonder why erato cant sleep well. I mean look at other stunner/crowd control operator, most of them have stun in all of their skill or at least have it at their better skill (S2 or S3) and doesn't rely on other unit to take advantage of their own crowd control effect. Having a cc gimmick but reliant on other to make use of it is a bad design flaw (looking at you, primal casters) because CC is ultimately a support, why do you even need a support ops to support your support ops? At that point just borrow surtr or something.

[@Emptyness_Void.]

I agree with this Toddifons analysis since I have her at max pot, M6, and also max lvl and max module. She's great

[@Dyzygy]

In defense of Toddifons: She probably has one of the highest aggregate Damage Scaling in the game (469-ish%) when she's fighting Sarkaz. This means that even a relatively small Atk Buff from, say, Skalter S3 or Sora S2 can get you insane Single Hit Damage vs. Sarkaz It also means that Def-Ignore isn't nearly as valuable for Todd; Rosa's talent would boost Todd's damage by about 600-700, but Skalter S3 boosts her damage by about 2300. It's much better to amp her Atk into the Stratosphere than Debuff Def or Ignore Def It would be better if her Talent conserved some of the damage vs. Non-Sarkaz. At least then she'd more applicable in standard play outside her niche [Cope] But her niche isn't that bad. A lot of Late Game threats are Sarkaz, so she can be more useful than meets the eye [/Cope]

[@coldcallerloopy]

Ooh very cool! I didn't consider that and I wish I added that in the video! And yeah as a Toddi fan I cope as well.

[@vanzeralltheway8638]

The entire amiya/lord of fiends storyline have sarkaz as boss/elites so yeah, at least toddi have some prime target there.

[@Dyzygy]

@@coldcallerloopy Tbh, I'm considering making a response/showcase/guide video about Toddifons. I'm not gonna be vitriolic, but it's honestly frustrating that so many ppl write her off b/c they don't fully understand how she works Would you mind if I mentioned your video directly?

[@coldcallerloopy]

@@Dyzygy Sure idm, lmk in this comment thread when it goes up :D

[@snowisthebestweather]

She was unironically really useful in chapter 10, and I would be in Darknights Memoir as well if someone hasn't cleared that yet.

[@cnemesys2156]

You just need to be incredibly racist to utilize the full power of the racist drago- I mean Toddifon is all.

[@123goofyking]

All I'm saying is there will not be a single IS5 run that doesn't include her

[@Emptyness_Void.]

Yup, and I'm ready. Literally have her at E2 lvl max with full pot and M6 alongside the full pot I have for her. She also has max trust 👍

[@123goofyking]

Besiegers are one of my #1 favorite classes because they stay in their lane when it comes to class duties. Like Reapers and Marksmen and Swordmasters They have their big ATK stat stick and they use it where it's needed. Slow attacks that deal bonus damage only to their preferred target and little to no aoe capabilities. Meanwhile, we've had Eyja and Silverash hitting the entire battlefield since Y1, Mountain switching classes, and and now Wisadel hitting air✅ killing high armor✅ and being permanently* invisible✅

[@kholdstare90]

Totter not prioritising invisible enemies means he doesn't kill his damage boost first. Instead they stay alive for the 3+ weight tanky enemies to die before they do. After all, Totter doesn't deal extra damage to invis enemies, he deals more damage to ALL enemies when someone invis is inside his range. Like how Typhon defense ignore is against all enemies and not just 3+ weight like Rosa.

[@rorogogos]

They are simply for different purposes within the same field, that doesn't mean one is worse than another, they simply have different uses. Totter *shouldn't* target those who are invisible, as he gets the atk buff whenever they're within his range, *not* when targeting them. The multihit also alleviates the single heavy targeting that's seen as a downside as well. Toddifons has more scaling than any of the others, and if buffed w/ atk with even minor buffs will cause her atk which is already above the DEF threshold to hold sarkaz lines better than rosa or typhon. Erato (as stated in the video) can perma stall and is used for sleepnights. The ability to hit enemies during sora's s1 is something other ops (other than other sleepnights) can't do. Rosa or Typhon, or any other sniper wouldn't be able to hit enemies while sleep stalling giving the stalls actual damage. In terms of use against bosses, Typhon and Rosa are obviously going to outperform due to the 6* rarity with higher atk, and the fact that bosses don't have these effects, however these operators aren't supposed to be used against bosses, they're supposed to go against elites. Their high attack is already enough to say that they're strong. They're much more useful on IS stages where these niches and abilities are empowered by items or enemy effects.

[@wrightnicheknights]

personally the way I'd want to see them changed is to have their enemy specialization based on talent, like the summoners' talent decides what their summons do, so that way the module trait buff applies to their individual kind of enemy they target/prefer

[@livyawthawn]

Erato’s kit is so awkward, she doesn’t really work with sleep (single target, auto activation) or Minos (can’t hit sleeping) knights. The buff she gets from Pallas is just ok, doesn’t do much. She is sometimes ok to annoy elites, and she was very useful on IS3. Rosa was disappointing when I got her, but the module solved this. Can’t deny Typhon has better DPS (2 good talents VS 1), but Rosa still has the bind utility from her S3. Maybe I’m just coping, but I like to run snipers dps.

[@potatatotes]

8 months late to this comment but Erato works well in HotSpringMelon knights in my humble opinion

[@FreedVoid]

After returning to Arknights after a few years, I'm glad to see people appreciate best girl Rosa

[@coldcallerloopy]

she is a good bear

[@wind64a39]

Amusingly enough, random untargetable objects sometimes get coded as "invisible enemies". This results in Totter's bonus having high uptime on some rather random maps.

[@coldcallerloopy]

that's actually really cool

[@Simptoria]

What a nice fella, hopefully I see him cover this hit game called FGO in the future

[@coldcallerloopy]

Sure pal, keep dreaming.

[@mash_002]

I always assumed their trait was that way so they would focus Boss/Elite enemies. I think a branch that is even more hindered by its trait would be deadeye snipers; their kits are good for hitting over high def but they focus targets with the lowest def.

[@marielcarey4288]

I like Erato her sleep is pretty useful against singular massive threats. Actually im pretty sure most of those types are immune to cc

[@SpookyVerii]

so you’re telling me toddifons ISNT meta like breeze is? for shame, for shame

[@HelterwithoutSkelter]

racists never prosper, i guess

[@kyarumomochi5146]

Why do people always see Typhoon as a Rosa upgrade when she is a side grade? Her both skills damage falls off extremely hard the moment multiple enemies are present on her range wich is a massive problem for her S3. Rosa ignores this entirely and just deals her max damage. Typhoon s3 and rosa s3 total damage and skill cycles arent that different either too

[@polardon3161]

Well, as a main topic of a video, it is sad that not 6* characters, are stragely designed. However it's is still better than throwing subclass into game without a second thought altogether, and than making 6* with built in, band aid solutions to the core problems of archetype, like ray and horderer, especially horderer, cause they fucked two units instead of one. Also funny how you said that typhon is outclassing rosa, but then there is ray, that is just better, and not far away from typhon. P.S. have fun with the game and play units that you like more first, and than braindead meta(can do both, like i care)

[@milesyalzin2018]

I think near the end you get close to the fundamental design issue with Besiegers, but you end up not focusing on it. You correctly recognize that both Rosa and Typhon are so good they can be used nearly anywhere, and that's the whole thing about this branch, if they were any more strong than they already are you would have 0 reason not to use them everywhere. This isn't exactly good 'cuz that would just mean that some other branch would take the place of the besiegers in terms of relevance and frequency of use. So to make up for this, they all have very specific conditions you really have to set up for them in which they absolutely break everything, but even if you can't find that you still have an unit that hits very hard, can be set up in a safe positions away from enemies, and they all have some form of unique utility you can take advantage of in a lot of situations. Totter is kinda like Lappland if you think about it, if the stage has invis/silenceable enemies you suddenly made your clear insanely easy thanks to them, but if not, you still have a pretty decent unit. Also I find it interesting how you speak as the branch being "designed for Rosa" when back when she came out the consensus was pretty universal in that she just wasn't worth it, it wasn't until her module came out that she became a real beast, and heck, even today you'll sometimes hear people saying stuff like "I don't think this operator will be any good unless they get something like Rosa's module". Overall I understand where you're coming from, but trying to make every unit "more viable for the meta" or trying to get them to dish out as much damage as possible in most situations is not healthy for the game in the long run, 'cuz then all they have to do is come up with a new branch that can do slightly more damage and the besiegers will be back where they are now.

[@myrt35881]

as a chinese server player that collected all 315 operators, I think typhon is currently way more useful than rosa. her S2 is insanely versatile and S3 is stupidly powerful when boss doesn't bring other lesser enemies around him. meanwhile rosa is like, specialized only on heavy enemies and skill cooldown is relatively long.

[@coldcallerloopy]

Very true, Typhon kinda feels like an evolution of Rosa

[@kyarumomochi5146]

Execept all elites and boss enemies are already 3+ weight enemies and rosa doesnt suffer from multiple target issue like Typhoon does. She isnt way more useful than Rosa, they just shine on different places, hence why they are tiered the same

[@myrt35881]

@@kyarumomochi5146 about 4 months ago, usage rate of Typhon was much, much higher on every contents of cn server. CC, IS, etc... Rosa has her own advantage ofc but Typhon is insanely versatile and easy to use compare to rosa. it doesn't matter much now because of Wis'adel tho.

[@kyarumomochi5146]

@@myrt35881 Currently both are basically the same tier and have the same usage rate. Rosas module wasnt utilized as much back in the day, they are basically equal now

[@myrt35881]

@@kyarumomochi5146 yes. but that's because of Wis'adel, not because of Rosa's module. it didn't affect their usage rate. before Wis'adel, everyone just used Typhon, Ray and Ela. not Rosa.(I know Ela is not sniper. but her talent and skill set is basically upgraded version of Exusiai, Archetto and Ash) Rosa is indeed powerful against heavy enemies. but there are too many operators that versatile and literally poweful against every type of enemies nowaday. after Ray, Ela and Wi'sadel, even typhon is now considered bit obsolete. you will understand when they come to global.

[@BionicleBuilderB]

7/10, found a typo in the second sentence, see me after class

[@coldcallerloopy]

No

[@BionicleBuilderB]

@@coldcallerloopy detention

[@misbahul9044]

ah besieger one of the least use unit in my snipersquad run (yeah no one use flinger, super niche) their trait and atk range can be a bit awkward sometimes, and when facing a herd of enemies having skill that deals bonus aspd or atk extra target really helps alot (except toddifons)

[@Ez3uwsacrq1m]

For me Totter's target priority is not that big of a deal because of his S2.

[@coldcallerloopy]

True, but I find his kit problematic oftentimes to get the maximum dps out of, especially for stuff like chapter 9 where the Companion Shadowblade dudes are supposed to be his forte but then the Companion Defenders come in and ruin that lol

[@llennnotfound7001]

Beseiger.

[@drucy.]

Me, deleting bosses with Pozëmka's : "Rosa who ?" Also, aren't most later-chapters bosses' from Sarkaz ? I remember seeing Toddi nuking the hell out of Manfred.

[@coldcallerloopy]

I've done some tests with Toddi against say H10-1 Manfred and she can get off maybe 2 hits with her S2 before his dodge shield gets back up. In 10-17 his dodge shield is down for much longer but usually the scenarios that allow Toddi to finally get some hits off you'd just be better off using any other DPS, perhaps someone like Justyna or Pozy with mod that can ignore physical dodge with their skills. It's frustrating because there are so few situations that Toddi is GOOD against a Sarkaz foe that actually justifies using so many resources to make the most of her. She's a FINE unit, not terrible by any means, but her niche is exceptionally small for the enemy pool she can make the full use of her kit for that other units can't also do but better and have more general usage like Rosa and Typhon will have.

[@drucy.]

@@coldcallerloopy Oh, don't worry, I completely agree with you. I'm completely converted to the Church of the Big Babe Wolf (Pozy), especially since her Module now also allow her to powercreep even Fartooth. I just feel like Hypergryph made late-chapters bosses (and a lot of mobs) Sarkaz to try and bring Toddi back into relevance... forgetting that a lot of other operators far outshine her even in those instances...

[@coldcallerloopy]

@@drucy. Hm... It's annoying for sure.

[@greenthndr]

It's called a targeteer bro.

[@coldcallerloopy]

I was expecting you to dump the attack% vs. damage% formula.

[@greenthndr]

i dont know if the people are ready for that

[@dokumushi6505]

OH MY GOD yababley's is my favourite drink! :clueless:

[@Piquliar]

It's getting closer to midnight and I woke up tired this morning, I shall watch this over tomorrow! Rosa is best girl btw :)

[@coldcallerloopy]

Wrong, Toddi punch, go

[@arnoldwu744]

This video has so many mistakes and innacuracies it barely works as an analysis or criticisim of the class. For one, Totter neither reveals invis (only sniper who can is rosmontis blocking w/ s3), nor does he gain an attack boost against invisible enemies, rather he gains atk when they're in his range. This is substantialy different, as this means that totter can use small invisible trash mobs to boost his atk while killing high weight threats. Furthermore, Rosa's base kit is not nearly as good as is described by the video, which neglects to mention her abysmally slow skill cycles, and only mediocre damage. Remember, the assumption was that all OPs were at E2 lvl 1 SL 7, at this point Rosa's S2 has an 80sp/60s cycle, and S3 is 34sp/7s, both of which are atrocious for the mediocre damage they offer, though the S3 CC is a shining beacon of hope here. She also doesn't have any of her Mod's damage improvement, given Mod is only available at lvl 60. I think this pretty clearly shows the archetype was clearly not designed around her, given how absolutely broken they had to make her module to bring her to usability (though post-mod she is notably excellent in sniperknights). Finally, though not an error, I think that changing besiger's trait is fundamentally misguided. Firstly, if the trait changes to a weight based atk scale, then besigers will be stacking truely ludicrous amounts of multipliers for even more rediculous damage than they already have, now perhaps you don't find that to be a problem, and fair enough, but wouldn't a better solution to the issue be to give each of the 4/5 star besiegers their own target prio as a part of their kit, and leave a secondary weight prio in their trait? They all need a bit of love anyways, and in general, weight prio is one of the best target prios in the game. It means they focus on the toughest, scariest enemies instead of trash mobs. This is good for all of them. Toddifons targets the heaviest sarkaz, and can use s1 to focus fire the scariest one in the pack. Totter will target his invis, and still reap the benifits of 115% atk scale on regular heavies, and erato still can single out threats to sleep with s1, or kill the sleeping enemies that matter with s2, instead of sniping slugs. I like the idea for this video, but the execution was overly flawed, i hope to see a revision in the future, though that seems unfortunately unlikely.

[@coldcallerloopy]

Hey! Glad you gave me some criticisms! I'm always looking for ways to improve and I'll take it into consideration! (had to edit to fix the last exclamation lol)

[@bluebutterfly6394]

Someone doesn't know toddifons s1 can overwrite Goldenglows S3 targeting

[@coldcallerloopy]

I did, I mentioned how it draws Ranged unit fire which can be useful. But I didn't think about GG S3 specifically, nifty.

[@rimiulnamo2059]

Toddi Probably one of saddest case for me personally because she's having great lore and design wise, Wouldn't it be Cool if she outclassed Typhoon a lil bit on pure damage but only against sarkaz idk Give Her 300% atk up or 50% def Ignore or Attack buff stacked up till 10x for sarkaz only make her complete ass against other race or just unable to attack them, make her 1 trick pony that specialize one thing and one thing only well one can only dream about it

[@coldcallerloopy]

amen

[@vanzeralltheway8638]

She is the product of her time... I only just now know that she got released alongside passenger, so if she is as good as you said it would be another blow for him, lol. Not to mention that at the time (i think) most troublesome enemies are sarkaz, so if toddi was that strong she would be straight up broken, and what they do to broken 5 star? nerf them hard. (Look at lappland and how they design the exploding shaman, and then gives us no silenceable enemies for years)

[@rimiulnamo2059]

@@vanzeralltheway8638 That's exactly What i mean, Like lappipi she's one trick pony, 99% you gonna use other lords because they just that much better than her but when she's working, she's working great and basically just remove the stages mechanic entirely there's so many way toddi can be lappland-2 , Just like Lappipi when you saw something annoying sillenceable you'll be like "its Lappland time to shine" and now for toddi "Nice its sarkaz stage, time to get toddi to sent them to vallhala" for balancing prob make her like sussuro the "BIG" skill can be activated twice but it basically melted most of the sarkaz or make her worked support and her skill would does Def and res shred for sakraz only i'm just big with this Specialize ops tbh

[@simplythecat4068]

Wait, what? Since when did Rosa become meta? Wasn't she always kinda niche?

[@coldcallerloopy]

I find she's the best of the Besiegers (prior to Typhon) but overall I guess in retrospect she is quite niche lol.

[@Vasharan]

In high Risk CC and in high end/restrictive content, Rosa can stall/CC bosses and elites that are too dangerous to Block, while doing very good damage (for a Year 1 unit). Gamepress rated her at S+ and a recent Arktuber put her in the top 5 Snipers (prior to Typhon). She's also a good pick for IS since her range is very useful for most stages (unlike, say Close Range snipers, which are very map situational, at least, until Pozy came along). Now I'm not claiming that Gamepress is authoritative, but Rosa has been punching well above her weight (no pun intended), and is only now being powercrept by Typhon, who is one of the most powerful units released in the game.

[@lunk2569]

1:04 OMG HIIIIIIIII

[@coldcallerloopy]

lol

[@_unknown123.]

Nice

[@coldcallerloopy]

nice

[@GBlockbreaker]

you have impressed me, this is the worst pronounciation of Rapebreaker's name i've ever heard

[@coldcallerloopy]

First

[@Kanarem]

First

[@lunk2569]

First