Better Engine Building: Clay vs Dial Indicator when Checking Piston to Valve Clearance

[@UnityMotorSportsGarage]

Best video I have ever seen covering PTV... I love your in-the-cylinder camera angle! A picture (in this case Video) is worth a million words!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for the kind words! And thanks for watching!

[@Highstranger951]

I really enjoyed the in-cylinder cam. Gives a new perspective.

[@Stale_Mahoney]

yeah and i learned a 3 way to see if you got clearance, simply use a camera, i will definitely use this method

[@sawyerbarnes7439]

First video I found that really explain valve clearance

[@bluegrassbassing3790]

Me too

[@krisztiantkacs]

I prefer to use both. With the dial gauge of course you got precise measurements. And the clay show you where is the closest point, and your valve pockets are on the right position or not.

[@bobhoffman5581]

No such thing as being "too meticulous" when building internal combustion engines, in my opinion. A friend's brother (who is my friend ALSO!) is one of Jack Roush's "ace" employees, a serious engine guy--my friend told me that even his brother (or anyone ELSE in NASCAR! lol) doesn't torque down cylinder heads like I do. Say the final torque value of the head bolts is 65#. First pull is 30# or so--2nd, is 45#--3rd pull, 55#--4th pull, 65#, and a 5th pull, at 65#, to be SURE. Heads with "torque to yield" bolts are a different "animal," but I've even used this method on THOSE heads also--I haven't ever had a "comeback," due to a blown head gasket, and I doubt I ever will. I also use 100 grit sandpaper and a 15" long 2x4, to "deck" the block; not bragging, just stating truth here--you should SEE the deck, after I DO it. Clean, and flat--as I asked my friend regarding our discussion about this--"can you torque down a cylinder head TOO "FLAT," John? His answer? "No, Red, you CAN'T." lol

[@michaelgarrow3239]

I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy too.

[@bicylindrico]

I would expect there would be quite a bit of deflection with all of the parts within the valve-train under load at engine speed and this would only open up the intake gap and close the exhaust gap. I think this is why you want a little more exhaust clearance when doing a static measurement. Great video!

[@HEATHENYT]

That first part of the video was terrifying lol. I'm loving going back through this content, and learning new things about engines.

[@SampurpSCR]

Great video and explanation. In my opinion clay is the best method with aftermarket camshafts and pistons. This helps verify valve radial clearance which is often overlooked. The valves have to be in the correct location to pistons valve reliefs.

[@peterchristlieb]

Love your videos Sir. I remember the days where a motor that ran good meant angle milling, fly cutting and plenty of valve train geometry adjustment. What you do is an art, thank you for passing it on to so many.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@Stank-b8w]

Hopefully videos like this will make people realize why good engine builder cost money!! It’s an art.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! And you are exactly right. There is a big difference between an engine assembler and an engine builder.

[@jkgkjgkijk]

This is good stuff. I've been a muscle car guy my whole life. I had a 70 Barracuda as a kid. The deepest I got into my motor was cam replacement, springs and valve seals. The rest was a mystery. I would pick the brains of other gear heads but never crossed the divide, graduating to full knowledge of how to rework heads, change pistons and crank seals. I had a 318 and put a 484/284 cam in it by using microfiche in the library and a mail order vcr instructional cassette. I was so proud of that. The lopy cam sound pouring out of my cherry bomb headers as a 20 year old kid...man. please keep it up! I would love to learn this stuff. Subscribed❤️

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Much thanks!

[@furfeelings]

I'm shocked no one is screaming that you scratched the top of the piston with the razor blade. Very nice video!! Thank you!!

[@cletiskroeker3552]

I did notice that. 😮

[@corybeckmann8823]

That’s honestly not the end of the world. I wouldn’t do that, but it’ll still work good enough lol

[@johnhill484]

This is one of the best videos about cam timing!

[@edwardchascsa4191]

Good video to show what is really going on. Its important to know how much room you have around the radius of the valve and that is where clay comes in handy

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! And thanks for watching

[@ktga67ish]

That’s true too! AFR recommend .020” Radio clearance around the valve to be safe.

[@marklowe7431]

It's one thing to be an expert in a given field but you have a really good way of explaining and the camera is done right. New Sub from Australia.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Hey, thanks for the kind words! And thanks for watching

[@skylerb7103]

Great video! That’s the first time I have understood the methods shown. Keep it up!!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! Much appreciated!

[@trenthari]

Never in my life do I plan on building an engine, but here I am, watching the whole thing

[@markwallace5274]

Great videos very informative channel. I really enjoy how you always give alternative methods that work !! I’ve always used the clay method with great success not all engine builders are like this I’ve meet a few that frown or even look down on methods like plastigauge but hey building engines on a budget is just as fun and possible without all the expensive tools 🤷🏼‍♂️Just having a good machine shop you can trust is the most important part

[@michaelvanparis9236]

I often get sucked down a rabbit hole with KZbin videos. Stumbled across this one. What degree wheel is that? I like it.

[@angelo_giachetti]

Thats how i did my first and only build. I did it for fun. It ran great.

[@thetinguy]

Sick borescope cam.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@OneDrone]

I don't often make comments but that video was amazing. Cheers mate!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks a lot!

[@chancellor9677]

Nice!!..I am re-building an old school 350 block, 69-75, with 186 double hump heads and a 480 lift hydraulic cam for a 56 chevy truck. Needed info on valve clearance. This video was on point for a beginner like myself.

[@manishgurav3783]

Sir ! i seen all your videos nice job i am a technician from india

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for watching!

[@user-leapold]

great video! I have to translate and understand all this, since I live in Russia! I like the American approach to engine repair! I have just as clean and also a good instrument! thank you very much!

[@ShredCulture]

Cylinder cam makes this video gold

[@CloseMyDoorMane]

Thank you for the detailed model clay step by step.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for watching!

[@corvettefever360]

I use both, dial indicator is for precise measurements, but..... I only use the clay for a visual determination in the valve alignment to the piston, or where exactly the valve lands to a specific area on the piston. This is great "guide tool" for determining possible fly cuts, additional fly cutting, etc, & without removing too much material from an area of the piston top where it's not necessary. For instance, i have also had needed clearance with the dial indicator, & been able to determine that the valve imprint in the clay is too thin or close in some areas than others. Especially with all the variables, as different manufacturers designs & specs, who decked or milled the block & /or heads, not to mention how they were done. Where there mistakes for the factory, the machinist, a customer brings in parts from who knows where, are the valve guides out- toleranced, considerable piston rock, expansion rate of specific metal combinations, etc etc etc. The list goes on. So the clay can give you a clear visual picture of where, even tho in "cleared" with dial indicator, the valve may still be too close to specific areas of the piston. Especially with higher performance, tight clearanced engines, & then also considering some of the variables I mentioned above. And this has & does happen. Ironically so many frown upon the clay method, yet many real experienced builders use it, such as myself, & for the same reasons too. I use it as a guide tool, & not for the precise measurements, for those I use the dial/digital calipers. Unfortunately there are too many inconsistencies with clay, in its consistency, how it was made, mixed, temperatures, losses of moisture in parts of it that aren't maybe noticed, & then how it reacts to the pressure of being "pressed or squished ". I have taken the same measurement a few times with clay & had different results. And when measurements within thousands of an inch are important, if not determental, then there can not be any inconsistencies.

[@SJR_Media_Group]

Very useful information... even if a person is not doing his own build, just knowing how to measure this super critical clearance is good. You can ask your builder questions based on this knowledge. Putting a Titanium Valve through a Titanium Piston due to clearance issues should have been measured long before tightening bolts. Oh yeah, that would be a costly mistake - ouch.

[@robinstan5810]

the cylinder camera was amazing... i wanna see more like that

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@ironhorse127]

Outstanding video. Explained in simple term. Easy to understand

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Hey, thanks! And thanks for watching

[@jjlad5037]

Thank you! That's my next task in my current engine build.

[@ronb113]

Gonna be doing this soon to see how thin I can go on my head gasket. Great video!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@tonyschiffiler4816]

Got to love that bore camera , both methods i have used in the past., great teacher , thanks.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Much appreciated! Thanks for watching

[@LateStartRacingTeam]

Awesome content as usual. I can't believe I didn't think of using an indicator on the valve to check clearance instead of clay!

[@mrmedium7984]

This is bible level of information. If you engine build or want to engine build, you better save or download this content.

[@stevensheldon9271]

Thanks for the video. Very clear and easy to follow. I'll be looking through more of your vids!

[@AmirPomen]

Im using both... 1-dial to measure how much the actual clearance 10degre btdc on exhaust and 10degree atdc for intake clearance 2-clay for actual valve pocket marking to do pocket cut if needed...

[@dsevenb]

Killer video. Thanks and greets from North Queensland Australia !

[@oodeeps]

Very well made video. Thanks for making this easy to understand!

[@themanthemyththelegend1392]

Nice score on the piston, depending on the application that is going to be a sharp edge causing a hot spot.

[@thatguyispro]

My thoughts exactly 😬😬

[@firebird70]

Great instructional vid once again, you nailed it, thank you. Just about to start this check on my 412ci pontiac.

[@mikef-gi2dg]

That was an easy to understand demonstration. Some of the written descriptions are complicated at best. Great job. But there is one thing I don't understand, why not check clearance when piston is at top? That is as close to the valve as it can get before the valve even opens.I know there is a good reason, I just can't see it. I have only built very mild street stuff, is there a point where this method is mandatory? The videos are very good.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! I'm glad it was helpful. You can certainly check clearance at TDC, but at that point both valves should be closed. What a lot of people don't realize is that the valves actually move faster than the piston. So with agressive cams for a performance engine, the valve can be moved so fast--either opening for the intake or waiting until the absolute last second to close for the exhaust--it puts it into contact with the engine. Hope that helps.

[@rafatrill]

Very good information I'm have to try both methods out on my next build

[@chrisgarrett6820]

I use clay on every engine I build. The fault with the dial indicator you don't get a visual on the valve clearance around the brow of the valve relief. This is very critical if going to larger valves or if the head has ever been repaired. We have a piston vise and have had to move valve pockets back and side to side to gain clearance on custom applications. The indicator method would never show if you didn't have enough clearance on the perimeter of the valve relief. I'd say for anyone doing basic combinations the indicator would be okay but I'd never rely on that for custom applications.

[@BBBILLY86]

Good video. Enjoyed the inside motor parts.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks a lot! And thanks for watching

[@marklowe7431]

Another well explained video. Cheers. The in cylinder camera was gold.

[@jimmattingly4234]

Great video only thing I like to add if you are degreeing. Cam much it needs to be if moving cl much makes a difference

[@RANDOMNATION907]

pfff . . . . subed. That was the first video of yours that I've watched and it was just about perfect. Looking forward to more.

[@jacktaylor9129]

Honestly learned something new today an the clay method is simple an very effective which is something i like

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! Glad the video was helpful

[@hotrodray6802]

👍👍 Really like the boroscope.👍 I'm suprized that you did not mention valve edge clearance. Great explanation. Thanks. 😁😎😎🇺🇸

[@PhilipHousel]

Very informative. Thank you for teaching me something new.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for the great feedback and thanks for watching!

[@savvy2807]

Good idea for the dial indicator stand.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@musskeeterbump]

☺️ Me havin a moment of clarity watching this video , all my adult life trying to see this process ( it is a process ) in this prospective . This is cool 😎 😊

[@frankdatank7751]

What do you think about stainless steel exhausts valves vs steel? Thanks This is the best video on how to use a degree device ive seen yet!!

[@gearhead7896]

Great video and great camera work inside the combustion chamber. Quick question; I want to measure total valve clearance before I buy/install a cam and work backwards. Can this be done to get close to a cam I can run? I know there are multiple factors (duration and lobe separation angle) but lift would be the most direct.

[@Texasknowhow]

Another nice video. I also enjoyed the in-cylinder video - was that looking through the spark plug hole?

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Yes, using a cheap endoscopic camera I pickup up off Amazon. I've been looking for a high-def version but can't find one. Thanks for watching

[@ChiefCabioch]

Clay is perfectly satisfactory, it isn't springy, what ever it measures is accurate, I've used both, and while the dial indicator method looks better, the window of piston travel and valve interference is a narrow area, and could be missed, but rolling the crank through several revolutions will give a very accurate reading, and clay will also show if the valve pocket is cut at the same angle as the valve...

[@Foxtrot1967]

Erson? I use to buy there speed goodies from "Super Shops" in the 80's and 90's. Must be making a comeback?

[@chrismontreuil2206]

I hope they are and not using Chinese grinds..

[@shadvan9494]

Erson is still around. It’s just then magazines push comp cam, lunati and crane. I remember super shops from back then. I used to buy all my stuff there. I bought some headers from the and they were missing the bolts and gaskets. When back the next day and they were closed, they never reopened. Was sad to see them go.

[@donovanpiper320]

Amazing video, thanks! This answers so many questions.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for watching!

[@tdawglp]

Love the video! Miss seeing you up at KT's. Hope you're good man 👍

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Hey, it's a voice from the past! I am, hope you are too! I miss the old days doing stories at KT's, they were fun.

[@tdawglp]

@@TheHorsepowerMonster oh yeah, it was good times . just to clarify , it's Thomas Purser. Keep up the good work man! Follow all your stuff 👍

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Yeah, I clicked on your name and watched the video where you were helping someone get his mustang engine fired up.

[@Gkitchens1]

Make 100% certain your cam or cams are clocked correctly before you use the clay method, because if you don't have enough clearance, and your valves are going to make contact, there is a slim possibility that the clay could make that worse. If unsure, spin the engine very very slowly, and if possible use a bore scope camera like the are using in this video.

[@siliconvalleyengineer5875]

excellent demonstration

[@davidvonanderseck8649]

Man I love your tec. Thanks so much. These are the things that guys don't want to tell you. ESP my machinist. Such a big secret

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks! And thanks for watching!

[@salvatorehayes2753]

On Some Engines You Need To Measure Piston To Valve Clearance With A Head Gasket. 3800 Series 2 Engines Have About .010"-.025" Of Piston Protrusion So No Head Gasket Means Pistons Will Hit The Head And You Won't Be Able To Turn It Over With No Head Gasket. If This Happens To You First You Need To Find Out If It's Designed Like That Or If Your Piston /Rod Combo Is Wrong. Or Blocks Been Decked Too Much.

[@tslr36]

Um dos melhores canais. Conteúdo muito bom. Parabéns pelos videos, sou apaixonado por motores. 🏁

[@nasreddineberkouia1547]

Thanks a lot well explained both methods I really enjoyed it.

[@JorgeTheilacker]

The 10 degrees BTDC and ATDC for the exhaust and intake valves are a rule of Thumb? The exact angle to measure It are not dependent of camshaft diagram and timing in use? Seems to me that clay is more on the safety side...

[@guzforce]

And about the third method? :-) Camera (boroscope) trough the spark plug thread.. Is how you did? Awesome video, Thank you so much!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Yes, I picked up a boroscope off of Amazon for about 40 bucks that records through my phone. Thanks for the kind words, and thanks for watching!

[@Raisen476]

Excellent video on explaining how to do this. 👍

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Hey, thanks a lot! And thanks for watching

[@screamin4402]

Awesome videos man, keep up the good work!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks!

[@frankbiz]

👍🏻 Great explanation and close up video in the cylinder. Was there vertical scoring of the cylinder wall?

[@hectordelgado3258]

For this to be accurate do you have to make sure you’re squared to the valve? If it’s a little diagonal won’t your readings be off? In my head I can’t tell if the reading will be larger or smaller than the true value

[@johncholmes643]

Generally, I use zero lash to accommodate for false valve train adjustment. Ya just never know....

[@charlespetersonii6989]

Interesting. I think I'll use your method now 👍

[@MissionRestomod]

That’s a good “worst case scenario” way to build it. Especially for beginners like me! 😆 some forged pistons swell up and out so it can’t hurt, even with perfect timing!

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

Good idea.

[@ReubenHorner]

@@MissionRestomod if the block is alloy then as the engine heats up the p2v will get larger

[@ChristopherJones16]

can someone tell me what zero lash is? I know theres caps called lash caps that go on top of the valve but didnt see them here.. so what exactly is the lash?

[@tomvo96]

Awesome video! Really appreciate the effort that went into making the explanations clear and concise. One question, though, with the indicator method: How does one find the timing BTDC/ATDC when the valves will be closest to the piston? Thanks!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Good question. Check out my video "Better Engine Building: The Easy Way to Degree in Your Cam" (kzbin.info/www/bejne/bX-yamqEg7Wnq7M) for how to do that. I did that one first because parts of it are necessary when checking piston-to-valve clearance. Thanks for watching!

[@izzycamaro]

Thanks, that was just what I needet to lernd for when I install the heads on my sbc chevy

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Awesome!

[@elonmust7470]

Wow this video is outstanding! Thanks!

[@jeremymurphy7320]

Ask anyone with an interference engine and a broken timing belt how expensive valve- piston crashes are.

[@johncholmes643]

90% of engines are interference engines.....

[@konnerkramer329]

My 350 broke a timing chain at 5,000 rpm and it still runs perfectly fine.

[@johncholmes643]

@@konnerkramer329 Must be a turd

[@skylinefever]

Nobody in my family knew what a timing belt was until 1994, when it went out on mom's 1985 Maxima. I have (And my dad has) hated of timing belts with a passion because of it. Konner Kramer: That means you have a non interference engine. Some engines have a low enough valve lift or a deep enough piston dish to allow that.

[@konnerkramer329]

@@skylinefever no it's an interference engine. The valves left a pretty good mark in the piston where the smacked it. Its also an 80 350 with the plastic timing gears. It had 192,000 miles when it broke. Has 212,000 miles now. It's stock with a windage tray welded into the stock oil pan and long tube headers.

[@downback5822]

With playdough you can measure valve to piston relief radius clearance

[@milojanis4901]

It may be OK for edge clearance, but for piston to valve clearance-DO NOT USE PLAYDOH!!!! It can give false readings, because it 'springs' back a small amount, giving an incorrect clearance. You may have only .070" clearance, but the springback may show .090"!!! USE MODELING CLAY ONLY!!!!!!

[@joesmith306]

The clay method is best, it also gives the valve pockets relation to the valve to check for shrouding.

[@sequoiaohz]

Do you always measure at 10 degrees before and after TDC ? Also for example with a Ford FE engine ?

[@eduardomargutti]

I was tripping when I saw this guy compressing the valve spring by hand 😳😳😳 then I looked at the springs 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@iamnoone.]

Your camera person was brave to stay inside the cylinder while you turned the engine over.

[@666SeeR999]

Thanks for great video. But I have one question. Why exactly 10deg BTDC and ATDC? Does it depends from cam profile? How this value can be calculated?

[@hotrodray6802]

Depends on the cam. Just use the clay. It is close enough and there is no chance for error.

[@666SeeR999]

@@hotrodray6802 thanks.

[@austindoud273]

You can just measure around if you're worried check it a different degrees

[@cocolumberwearenotalike2677]

Im a small engine technician "motorcycle" big help for me

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback.

[@hordboy]

It might be wise to use both methods, at least with a new engine combo. The dial indicator method doesn't tell you the clearance from the edge of the valve to the ID of the valve pocket. You can't assume piston manufacturers get the pocket location correct. Also I check clearance (dial method) in a range of about 5-17 degrees. Not every cam design or lobe center will put the valve closest to the piston at 10.

[@FixTechStuff]

You make it look easy. 👍🏼

[@JoseLopez-ep9jl]

Mr. You know the part number of the housing gasket between block and transmission housing?

[@sahalin12345]

Very informative! Thank you!

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Thanks for watching!

[@nick4506]

is the tootsie roll method real? basically a tootsie roll in place of the clay. comes with wax paper on it so you don't have to worry about it sticking and also you can pull it out and measure with the calipers more accurately. but now that I think about it its a bit stiffer so you may have issues with collapsing lifters. or is there some other downsides I'm not seeing.

[@177SCmaro]

I'm a 34 year old man and I still play with play-doh I bought at Walmart.

[@wangchun6784]

Thank you kindly for sharing

[@TheDrAkira]

Thanks man! Really easy to understand!

[@daver9024]

Great video, but you forget to mention that the test springs will show you about .020 to .030 more clearance than the running springs. Depending on the spring pressure of the running springs. So if you are building an engine with Max compression in mind ,you will need to do your testing with the running springs.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

You are talking about clearance before coil bind correct? Yeah, good point but since it isn't technically piston to valve clearance we didn't cover that. Thanks for watching

[@daver9024]

@@TheHorsepowerMonster No I am talking about Piston to valve clearance. You do not have any valve train deflection with test springs. If I have an engine I am building with max compression in mind and as small as a piston dome as possible then I like to run the piston to valve as close as possible. Like .060 on the Ex and .030 on the intake. The only way you will get away with this is buy checking the P to V with the springs you run the engine with. I use a on engine spring tester to open the valve with a dial indicator. And start at 8 deg then go until you gain clearance. I have seen TQ and HP gains from doing this on the intake, because I think the piston going down the bore and the valve chasing the valve pocket makes the engine start breathing air faster, by creating a low pressure on the intake port stronger and sooner.

[@DaytonaBlueHr]

Dave R Damn this is some good info 🤯 can you rebuild my tired 6g72 engine in my 3000gt lol 😂

[@hotrodray6802]

Static deflection of more than a couple thousandths.... 😱😱You definitely need better quality valve train parts. 😱😱

[@ChristopherJones16]

great vid, the only thing that could make this video any better would be if the pistons werent already cut and you cut them in the video. Other than that excellent video.

[@milomanx6531]

Yes, use Silly Putty or clay to check the valve to piston dish diameter clearance, where the dial indicator won't.

[@RobertFulton-o9j]

The clay can show shrouding and valve to piston pocket angles

[@3800TURBO]

The clay job is good for finding edges that need trimming on the piston. Like if a really large valve touches the side of a relief in the piston. Dial indicator wont show you where to trim.

[@mitchellfay5725]

My number 3 and 5 cylinder in my sbc 383 seem to require longer pushrods than all the other cylinders. Literally a full additional turn on the rocker cups to get them within the .019 spec. I have 7.900 in pushrods for all the other cylinders but those two require like an 8.10 to keep it under the two turns for these shaft rockers. Any idea why this is? It's a solid roller cam.

[@TheHorsepowerMonster]

Are you using stamped rockers? That could be it. Or issues with the lifters?

[@Supanova70]

If i have steel heads to i even need spring locators?.490 lift cam. just use shims to set valve installed height and be done.?

[@akramdastager45]

I have a Honda k20 engine. I have 1mm oversized dished valves on the intake and I have stock size flat faced valves on exhaust side. Is this a good set up?

[@dadfood3504]

I think its worth investing in the tools to do it right

[@markjanetti9501]

Nice video, what brand that degree wheel