Beyond The Final Shape: How One Character Can SAVE Destiny's Second Saga

[@-hagann-]

Something that I always thought would be cool for the next “chapter” of destiny would be some kind of time-skip. Since we’re immortal, the writers could put us as far into the future as they want. I feel like that would make the story more accessible to new players as well.

[@blaire4115]

I actually think Destiny needs to move on beyond the Darkness, Pyramids and the Witness stuff. Good or ill, they should finally finish that story in Final Shape and plan something totally fresh (and hopefully more thought up from the start) . There's nothing especially interesting in "we won, but not really, there is actually ANOTHER bad Darkness guy" scenario. I even take Vex as new major threat.

[@Venextron]

I understand that completely. My counter to that is simply that there shouldn't be a second saga to begin with. To be brutally honest, after spending this many years dealing with a threat as powerful as the Witness, any other topic, or faction you could present me with should be relegated to an Episode in my eyes. That is why there are only two options. Either Bungie prints Episodes for the foreseeable future, and D2 winds down, or they begin a new saga, which requires a bigger threat. An entire saga cannot be built off of the Nine, it cannot be built off of the Vex or the Cabal. It cannot be built off of an enemy weaker than the Witness. So the way I see it, if they do choose to make a Second Saga, it needs to be done right, and that requires a villain that is an actual valid threat. If there is a topic and character, and you think "Oh I'd like to know more about them", that can be done in episodes. Keep in mind this is all based off of the Episodes we do know of being completely separate and seemingly self-contained topics.

[@chrisquinn3377]

​​@@Venextronwhat if the witness dying presents a power vacuum in which a race like the vex can capitalize on one massive road block has vanished we have been told the vex we fight are nothing but farmers so why can't they be the next threat maybe not a 10 year saga but a 3-5 year one. Now imo I would like to see the winnower and gardener but that only works if they actually focus on a tailored story to the player and the writers would have to find a way of making that conflict work, how can you portray the gods in a satisfactory way how can implement their power in a scalable way, the problem is you can't otherwise they lose their perception which is why it would have to be a player centric story where we are not focused on fighting the winnower/gardener but we are focused on fulfilling their will, it needs to a battle of the mind and test of mortals character and will a metaphysical fight and not one of might

[@yourewrong9028]

@@Venextron it CAN be built off of an enemy weaker than (or at least, not greater than) the witness, but it would have to be done tactfully. For instance, you could easily make it be about something that, while technically less of a threat to the universe than the witness, is still dangerous in specific ways to specific things that we care about. Savathun is actually a great example of how this COULD work, though obviously a whole saga focused on her is probably out of the question.

[@ThePorkShire]

@@Venextron I do agree that the next saga focusing on an already established faction like the Cabal wouldn’t work. It’s harder to say one way or the other on the Vex and Nine since their canvases are still very blank. But more so I want to see a story beyond Light and Darkness and what place a guardian has in that story. Even if Unveiling was a reliable source, the Winnower would just be more of the same as the Witness (which I do like but think they underutilized to this point). In the old intro, the speaker said our destiny was to walk in the light of other stars, and the Witness prevented that. With the Witness out of the way, I’d like to see that happen and we enter a new era of discovery for Destiny. Whether Bungie takes the time to make that in Destiny 2 or a sequel with episodes filling the gap. And I don’t think every threat going forward has to one-up each other on a power scale. Like you said, it’s hard to surpass a god like entity. But I think anything we’re not familiar with fighting can be threatening. But all around, great video. I enjoy hearing your takes.

[@SunbroJoe]

​@@Venextron They could do Vex. They slipped in from the in-between and are creepily separate from the "petty" light and darkness struggle. They could eventually simulate the Gardner/Winnower. They haven't been handled very ominously in game as of yet, but their lore paints them as potentially the most frightening thing to deal with once you start peeling back reality and peeking into their origin space. My thoughts at least, I always viewed the Vex as seeing all our magic powers with indifference and even though they couldn't understand them initially, they may not view them much different than that would a gun or a large rock to be used as a weapon. They want to write themselves into the physical expression of reality. Inject their code into existence itself. Hard to express that level on screen, hell yeah lol. But I hope they try.

[@go2nrg]

So we already know the implied Gardner is the Traveler per Ahsa’s flashback. The Winnower is a concept, I believe, created by The Witness that it is naming itself to cull the chaos of the Traveler/Gardener. In the video, in my interpretation of everything, I think your interpretation of Shadowkeep’s ending was incorrect. The one that said “we are coming” isn’t the Winnower as you proposed in this video, but the Witness. I believe the next entity we are facing is the one above the Traveler and Veil. The big takeaway I got from Ahsa’s flashback is that the Traveler doesn’t want to be joined to the Veil. Osiris even mentioned about how the Traveler and the Veil may have once been one. I believe the next saga is about the beginning of the universe and the source of paracausality (light and dark power).

[@navi0760]

Yeah see that’s what I was thinking as well. Also the only other character who uses us/we pronouns is the witness. It seems like a stretch to assume that the Winnower is a completely separate character when we have to many similarities between them, and hints that they are essentially the same

[@michaelchesnut865]

It's also been confirmed by one of Bungie's writers that the Unveiling lore book is essentially the Witness' theology.

[@SurfaceImpz]

The only thing Bungie needs moving forward is actually compelling new worlds and characters to explore. The next expansion's reveal trailer, (if there is one), should start with the guardian(s) waving goodbye to Sol and the tower. There's a dramatic lightspeed entrance and.. Boom. wer're shown an entirely new galaxy, kinda like jangling keys. We land on some new planet and are shown a world genuinely alien to us, then bam, new race, maybe new subclass? Imagine we meet a new friendly race, the new bad guys could be those outer-Sol monsters Drifter spoke about. I don't think we should immediately jump back to high stakes action with 2025's major story, Destiny needs to rediscover its illustrious mystery by easing into a whole new solar system to explore.

[@chelsthegameruiner8669]

I'd be down for this. FFXIV is doing exactly this with Dawntrail and it's a breath of fresh air from being the hero stopping a world-ending apocalypse. Granted, I'll miss the Asians, but I've come to accept that the story is moving on from that saga. I heard recently that Sony took over Bungie finally and are actually working on implementing things to bring back the game's enjoyment. I'm happy about that but obviously with Dawntrail releasing in the summer, I'll be more busy with that. If Final Shape is great, then I'll buy it after the reviews roll in

[@raekwonchambers2297]

My theory is we might get a new race but everything after will be like the scorn route. Scorn is hive n fallen so a cool mixure if it’s about the vex would a fusion of vex and hive like wtf would that look like. Magic and technology then we have the one I want the most vex and siva. Considering nothing has absolutely mastered siva I think the vex can make a huge game changer with it and alter their frames as well it will be like perfect harmony for the vex

[@rorcaptain]

My prediction is that the 3 episodes will be a narrative way to deal with the 3 biggest threats and anything afterwards will be a year or two of rebuilding like Retaking Torabatl, Reclaimation of Riis, and exploring other worlds torn apart by the hive or the witness.

[@willsmith5935]

I've always thought that the only way that we could properly move onto a new saga is if the Vex make a massive powerplay during the Final Shape, perhaps even terraforming a god. If the Vex are the pieces that always end consume the board, then our only chance of ever winning is to eliminate them, which we supposedly can due to paracausality. Them becoming the main threat allows for us to fully explore their race, and opens up various possibilities, in part due to their vagueness.

[@raekwonchambers2297]

The issue with the vex is they cannot comprehend our light and dark powers. They tried even praying to a god to have power like us and other enemies like the hive but they just lack an advantage. I feel like the vex needs an outside force to get them to be the ultimate threat like they should have been n that might be Clovis, maybe he becomes a vex god and has all the information and the power of the future on his side and all the knowledge he knows about us guardians it would be truly terrifying cuz the vex by nature is almost paracasal they live for one purpose n that’s for their species to be the top n Clovis might do somin crazy n try to make humans into vex by making them exos as a starter option

[@kylemccormack1785]

Here's my "vision" for the themes of the next decade. If the first ten years can be looked at as a single chapter, then the next chapter has to build upon this one. That means we can't just abandon everything we have. At the same time, it really has become uninteresting to fight re-skinned versions of the same enemies we've been fighting. We need new enemies to fight, new reasons to fight them, new places to fight for, and hopefully a newer game engine. At the same time, it isn't prudent for them to ONLY have new enemies or to abandon all of their great characters they've introduced us to, I get that. For me this is what I want from either the next big expansion or, in my best hopes, Destiny 3. If our first ten years were about getting our footing, then these next ten years must be about taking our first steps. The story must now, on a fundamental level, actually reveal to us what our destiny is; it should begin to fulfill the promise of the original game, that it is our fate to walk in the light of other stars. We should become the Gardeners answer to the Winnowing logic. We should become like Crusaders, the inverse of the Hive, travelling the stars in search of justice and a greater unity. We can start on Torobatl, repay our debts to the Empress and have an AWESOME expansion infused with Iron Lord Saladin and Caiatl just giving us master class voice acting. It would actually feel a lot like The Red War except that this time, WE are the invading Cabal Army, seeking to reclaim Torobatl from the remnants of the Hive. But it could also have Rise of Iron vibes with Saladin as our commander on the Cabal War Council. This is where we should find Xivu Arath hiding (I am worried they will waste her in Final Shape, please God let me be wrong) and the battle between Caiatl and Xivu should be a Blur-quality, Last Stand of the Gunslinger quality, epic cinematic show-down where she bests Xivu in combat and crushes her head with a damn hammer before reclaiming her throne. The episodes can simply focus on the actual at-hand issues involved in such crusading; putting down the Psion Rebellion, dismantling Xivu's Hive commanders and tithing structure. Finally ENDING the Hive by slaughtering the Hive Gods, the Worms?! Imagine THAT Great Hunt being an Episode. Killing Xivu and her worms after building it up for two episodes? That seems like a damn good way to start us off, right there. We could do the exact same thing for the Fallen and their homeworld of Riis the following expansion, and THAT would be the time to introduce some cosmic horror creepy jeepy stuff, maybe the Aphelion, as something "left behind" after the Whirlwind. Like if Presage was a planet but also cold like Europa, somewhere between frozen wasteland and cosmic horror. Really give us a truly DARK Darkness enemy that would prove a worthy foe for the House of Light.

[@crimson312]

Haven't watched you since the Solving the Fish vid. It feels like a fresh of breath air being back here.

[@Venextron]

It's good to have you back {:0)

[@arturolucianoal]

I really love the atmosphere of your videos man, the sound effects, the ghost icon, good job dude, very good video and vibes in general

[@Barnsey3288]

The situation that the destiny story is in is reminding me of supernatural. Only 5 seasons were planned and the big bad of the franchise (lucifer) was defeated but they decided to make more seasons. They had to keep finding ways to create a new big bad for a season or two and you could tell they were struggling at times. Creating a sister to god (the darkness) to make the new big bad, bigger than previous ones. I did enjoy it but at times I did wish they would just end it while it was still respectable.

[@kristophershephard7359]

So the episodes are creature features..I dig it. ❤️

[@MuzcleJinx.]

You're spot on!! I love Destiny and Supernatural, but both of them should have ended a long time ago.

[@kristophershephard7359]

@MuzcleJinx. lots of people said the Chuck reveal should have ended the show. I think at the time it was season 5. CW had a hit on their hands and it was in full swing. Just like destiny they had different writers come on to do the universes, purgatory, leviathans(the leader was cool) and the death/void/ jack ending. Don't get me started on the prequel. Personally if a writer is going to do anything with time lines and universes they need to have figured it in already. I just see the dark tower ending with the gunslinger and man in black or elrics eternal champion is where destiny could be headed in the final shape

[@MuzcleJinx.]

@kristophershephard7359 The dark tower spin on Destiny would be cool to see. In my mind, the supernatural prequel never existed. They recon John's backstory, and thats unforgivable. 😂

[@kristophershephard7359]

@MuzcleJinx. exactly. I was like I hope someone got dragged to He11 for that.

[@calebwurtz]

The Winnower idea is something I’ve wanted for a very long time. I think a lot of people will be upset at it tho. However I do think it’s Bungie’s only real route. I think the issue with it being the next threat, is that The Witness was set up to be THE BIG DARKNESS BADDIE. When that isn’t the case if you read the lore. But the narrative and lore have a tough time figuring out what should go where. Id love to see it tho.

[@AdrianRodriguez-zs1lo]

If they bring back Winnower as a canon "entity" I'd love it. It would definitely bring me back to the game

[@DigitalUmbra]

I personally think that whatever comes after final shape and its 3 episodes will be, in some way or another, Ahamkara related. We've saved Rivens eggs and they will (I assume) hatch at some point, bringing the power of live ahamkaras back. I think having that as a set up for potential bad apples to take control of some and use them to reach a type of power similar or equal to us would be a decentish start to something

[@saint_mockturne]

Going into final shape with borderline no expectations and what expectations I do have are so low they are somehow below the floorboards

[@Blanket420]

I feel like having guardians be sterile is missed potential. You could have it go further into the future with humanity being able to harness the light which is a new evolutionary event. You could have a galactic civil war which would build the new world, introduce new themes and characters, and just a new shake up in gameplay.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

I get why they went with it thematically, the Light is more meritocratic than dynastic, and bungie has an established pattern of doing celibate heroes so there's no distracting romantic subplot, but I do agree with you regardless. If we're meant to safeguard life and nurture it so that it doesn't have to become like the Hive, we shouldn't be severed from the process of creating new life.

[@GhostRydr1172]

The way the Sony winds are blowing at Bellevue WA, I'd be legit surprised if we get more Destiny past those 3 episode. Or even beyond FS.

[@codyconnor6981]

I still want us to go retake the Cabal home world.

[@smackothy]

Just stumbled on your channel after watching your video on how much pressure is on Bungie and the Final Shape and this one. Seeing someone with a new perspective in the lore creator-community with ideas of where the story might go is super cool!! :>

[@steffpeek]

bro, this is a fantastic idea! I honestly will be sad if they dont go through with this very idea. Great content!

[@Mia-Bunny]

I could see us as a guardian lose our power at the end of final shape and maybe like some comments already said go into a new galaxy discover a new power for us to claim, meet new enemys that don't have to be as strong as a witness. The other option would be a more personal story, discovering who we are as not only a guardian of humanity but as an indiviual. There we could meet some enemys that don't have to be strong, but create a moral dilema. Us walking the thin line between good and evil and deciding the final argument for the gardener and the winnower on our own, without even being challenged by one of them, could work for me.

[@andremedeiros8031]

I have a theory about the Witness. I think it may be just an avatar of the Veil/Winnower. If we analyse the Traveler, it has "children" (Guardians) and its own heralds (Speakers), to whoom it delivers messages through dreams and sensations. On the other hand, the Veil has its own kind of heralds, this somewhat "Witness influence" on groups of beings. Both the Witness species and Maya Sundaresh's crew were strongly influenced by the Veil to do the same thing: fuse the group into an entity. The Veil (or the Winnower through the Veil), kind of imposed its will on them. Even the Vex from the Sol Divisive were influenced by the Black Heart, a failed copy of the Veil planted by the Witness, and started to worship the failed copy, being separated from the unified Vex mind. Maybe the Witness as we know is an avatar of the Veil, as the Speakers are heralds of the Traveler, the difference being the freedom: given by the Traveler/Gardener to the Guardians and Speakers or taken by the Veil/Winnower to the Witness and Maya's crew. Perhaps after defeating the Witness, this theory will be revealed as a fact, and the next enemy will be the Winnower, or maybe we'll fuse the Traveler and the Veil, breaking "the line between Light and Darkness". They were once together, as Osiris said in the radio.

[@TBONE_2004]

I bet you! When we kill The Witness in the raid, they will rise up and say these words... "We were the cause of your universe's collapse... _but we were _*_not_*_ the source._ We came to bring you... salvation. You chose this path... He is coming... Your salvation is here... *_DROWN IN THE DEEP..._* " As we see the Darkness swallow us entirely... _WE LOSE._ And then, we wake up in a universe void of life now. I'm talking like Final Fantasy VI Dark World levels of despair.

[@duxmorotai]

God damn it, I want a campaign where we fight Dark Guardians >:(

[@kristophershephard7359]

The problem with the episodes is that they'll be tiny cuts to probably tie up lose ends or just short stories of things that could have been huge before TFS. Heresy is also the episode I'll be excited for because it could lead into a more expansive destiny in the future. This all depends on if bungie has truly given up on Destiny. Savathun left us her ghost just to let us feel in control when in the end she had been using the Imbaru engine to find a way to not be dependent on anyone. No worms. No ghost and the light just self sufficient power. She wanted immortality and power maybe for herself and her sisters. Now if like you mentioned about immortality in one of your many wonderful videos(veil one I believe) the vex attempt is brought up, if Fikruls immorality is brought up and then in heresy we get Nokris's necromancy mentioned Savathun could be trying to discover how to get on the level of Gardener/Winnower. Or even above that. Bungie could go for other universes running at the same time as our destiny universe. What if there is a Garden for Halo? Marathon? Etc. Maybe I'm thinking too big but it could be possible it just depends on how long/far they want to go. Bridge the next few years with interesting games and an anime then boom D3 or just Destiny. Sony has an anime channel as well as a huge media side. Unfortunately I think after TFS ending like the Dark Tower(gunslinger and the man in black) with hints of Elric I mean Crow) bungie is pretty much done with Destiny. We end up being the final knife unintentionally created by the Light. We meet the Gardener and Winnower and are just told to live... it's our Destiny. They go off and start a new game and tell us magic still exists in our universe. Three episodes to see if the game still can make money and D1 servers shut down. There's a ton of lore and story to create but Elder Gods and more would need a new game.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

Destiny is already such a mess I really hope they keep the crossovers to a minimum. Seeing Savathun figure out more clever exploits would be fun, she certainly has the ambition to make herself as big of a threat as possible. I'd like to see a fully realized Vex enemy, but I don't think Bungie knows how to represent just how much of a mind screw they are when they're in control inside the actual game. It might even fall under the "too nauseating or confusing for most playtesters" category, honestly.

[@ArcaneStrain]

The Winnower isn't a guy, it's a personification of the force of Darkness, of the Veil, just as the Gardener is for the Light and the Traveller. Unveiling is just a legend told by the Witnesses race, their view of the creation of the universe. Oryx didn't commune with The Winnower, it was The Witness. The Witness is not the Darkness, just the most powerful user of it.

[@davialmeida6566]

And this was the worst move Bungie could have done. Retconed one of the best lore books with "unriliable narrator" and casting shade against a estabilished lore book.

[@SunbroJoe]

We'd need the Winnower as the looming threat AND something like the Aphelion or some twisted deep space monster faction to pull some weight down here on the ground where we play our weekly activities. Both are important to refresh interest. I almost think we'd need more than one new enemy faction over time to achieve that.

[@inika565]

Sadly, I highly doubt they would use the concept of The Winnower as the next villain Simply because it implies that the Light vs Dark conflict isn't over. I believe they won't necessarily do stories about another big bad, but rather explore the universe. Imagine finding new paracausal creatures like the ahamkara and the aphelion, they wouldn't turn into "the next Witness", but would give bungie the opportunity to make new dungeons/raids and explore other fantasies. Really you just have to look at the Variety of themes they been trying these last few years with seasonal content Pirates, Dungeons and dragons, 80's cyber metal, underwater... I think these kind of wild ideas is what they want to explore once they are free of the main narrative.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

that's the impression I get, anything after TFS is just an epilogue.

[@jsubb4680]

An amazing twist would be that after the witness is destroyed, the light has all the power of actual military force, and having the gardener go on the offensive against the winnower would make for some very compelling philosophical and character drama. This would also open up the whole universe to being huntable for the winnower

[@alter6243]

I am so happy your last video blew up. Your channel always had a super unique way of looking at the lore. You form your criticisms in a way I really appreciate as a long time fan of the lore. Watching my friend play the Summoning Pits strike got me hooked immediately. The architecture, crazy enemy design, brooding dialogue. I wanted to understand the story so bad without even having a real grasp of what the game was. It’s that specific reason I have really not liked the direction they took with seasonal story telling. The seasons are meant to build off the narrative threads from the campaign and move us towards the next expansion. However, the experiences become hollow once the seasons are cycled out. Especially with the lack of new playlist content that made the world feel alive. There are many strikes that could have gotten revamps during seasons rather than making two activities that will be deleted. A new player really isn’t given any reason to be intrigued about a character like Nezarec. For example, let’s say we took one of the Fallen strikes during Season of the Plunder and changed it around the story elements of that season. Spider informs us a group of his were scavenging and got attacked by a group of Fallen who work for Eramis. Eramis’ group is there to collect a piece of Nezarec. Not only would this give new players an idea of who Nezarec is and why he is important, you would also have dialogue that had characters questioning why Spider’s men were here in the first place. So when Spider is eventually brought back into the story, new players have the context that Spider is a suspicious character without needing to watch/read content that isn’t in the game. I feel like so many negative story points could have been alleviated this way. There is a lower chance of retcons and inconsistencies if they only had to write for 6-8 weekly missions and a strike vs 12-16 missions. It’s my personal opinion that the story would be in a much better place right now without so much bloat to the story. The Forsaken “seasonal” content has some of the best lore because it was allowed to be fully cooked.

[@nankaq9909]

Say it louder for ones in the back please

[@Krush_the_Wizard]

Hey dude, this is a great video! I've been out of the lore scene for a while now but I think you just dragged me back into it lol. Your past two videos are some of the best destiny lore/narrative analysis I've seen in a long time, keep up the great work. I love talking about Destiny in this way. I have no idea what Bungie is going to try to do, but it is fun to speculate about the future based on the pieces of story we do have. I would love for you to hear about your fan fiction for the next saga! Maybe even take ideas from the community and give your take on them! Everything below is just my speculative rambling about the future with some hopeful delusion sprinkled throughout. I would love to hear what others think about some of these ideas! TLDR: I think there is a lot of housekeeping that needs to happen before the Winnower really needs to do anything, and if we really need a big bad to deal with in the next saga then it should be Oryx. (I am an Oryx simp) There is so much to explore before we need the Winnower. The Winnower needs to show up eventually, but there is plenty of stuff to cover before it needs to start making moves. We could leave the system to reclaim Torabatl and Riis. We could just chill for a while and have a political arc that deals with the factions trying to come back to the city, potentially as a hostile takeover led by Lysander and the Concordat. We could have another rise of Warlords that start their own colonies on earth and beyond. We could hunt down and deal with the Dredgen's once and for all. We still need a new Speaker and Hunter Vanguard. With access to the pale heart we could find out what exactly the goals of the Traveler and the Light are (in the Traveler's/Gardener's own words) and maybe hash out a deal to stop fighting with the lucent Hive. We could work to finally end the curse on the dreaming city and restore the Awoken territories. And there should still be some crazy stuff going on in the distributary. The Ahamkara are back in play again. We could just run around and keep cracking open the pyramid ships and killing the rest of the disciples, and walking through its museum halls learning about long-forgotten civilizations and how they all fell, one by one. The Nine still exist. We haven't properly interacted with them in a long time if ever. Maybe they find a way to more directly influence our reality and make themselves a bane or boon to humanity. We still have a couple of worm gods to kill and if Shivu or Savathun decide to go back to fundament then I think there is a really strong chance that Oryx will be resurrected as there are some threads in the books of sorrow that suggest this is possible. And if the Taken King does come back then what will he think of all that has happened since his death? Will he stay aligned with the darkness or join Sav in the Light? With the witness failing to achieve the final shape, his sister joining the light, and his other sister losing her throne world? Oryx has a lot of decisions to make that could impact the entire setting. Any of this could make for an interesting start to the next Saga, and the Winnower wouldn't have to lift a finger. Honestly, Oryx seems like a much more logical choice for the next saga-level big bad, especially if he is not aligned with the light or dark exclusively. A more neutral character, playing with the balance of powers in the setting like Mara and the Nine, but strictly adversarial to us (ya know, since we killed him and his family.) His motivations wouldn't have to escalate past the Witness to end the universe or something, it could be more personal. He could just target the Guardian and our allies like Caiatl and Mithrax. And I know that the hive has been spotlighted more than any other race, and we already let Oryx have his time, but if he came back he would interact with the setting in a totally different way than in TTK. He is an introspective villain, and our foil in our race to rebuild with our allies. The next threat doesn't have to be a big bad either, it could be a philosophical idea or logistical problem, like a divide within humanity deciding what to do next. We have a lot of allies to repay and a bunch of smaller threats that need to be dealt with before they grow and get out of hand.

[@John-GamerW]

I like what you are saying and I think it would give us 2 different powers. The power to "Take" the Winnowers power. And the power to "give" the power of the Gardener

[@brmawe]

Tbh I see Bungie going with the Vex claiming Paracausal power. They've been using the race quite prominently recently. I always thought that a Witness race would've been awesome. Just imagine the design of the witness but less ghostly like, you have scouts, assassins from the shadows, brutes like the Tormentors, & ranged attackers, oh and they all talk in unison. Once you "kill" them near the end of the campaign (Let's say Lightfall) they fuse to become The Witness & you fight the entire race in the raid which is on there home turf, The Black Fleet itself.

[@SunbroJoe]

That's kinda what they want to being with. To weave themselves, their code, their existence into reality itself. Maybe they achieve that via the Veil. The veil lets you assimilate minds into a crazy nexus (or the Witness for example), maybe they use it to assimilate and inject themselves into reality. Now they no longer need to run things in their simulations, they can just create and appear anywhere they want being one with the universe. I still hope the Vex get scarier. They crawled out from the in-between and I've always seen them as the main alternative threat that could scoff at the Light and Darkness fighting that's going on locally in our space.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

hot take: that's what the nightmares from shadowkeep were going to be at one point. think about it, shadowkeep is when we first encounter a pyramid ship in person. most concept art of the witness actually depicts it as red instead of white, with a sort of afterimage effect, implying the witness could probably project copies of itself to act as an army. Bungie had a new enemy type somewhat planned out, but ended up scaling things back for one reason or another.

[@TheSoulTheta]

5:33 really bittersweet, cuz it's funny but i feel like that's what's gonna happen... I like your vids, G

[@kazeed]

In Platonic phylosphy the universe is made up of the phyiscal (the traveller), the logical (the witness), the spiritual (?) and the demiurge who has the power to transform ideas and feelings like logical -> physical -> spiritual. So this is a heavy inspiration for another saga in which we deal eventually with the creator of all ultimate.

[@Perkustin]

Watched a couple of your vids, good stuff. It's odd to say but the fact you're not afraid to 'wishlist' (don't really like that term) ideas actually makes your videos better for me. I like many elements of Destiny Lore, the enemy races in particular (the lore about Scorn development has been a little spark of light in recent years) but find most of the core stuff, basically anytime the word 'Paracausal' shows up, i sleep, highly tedious. I honestly think your Winnower is not the Witness theory is correct purely based on the evidence but said evidence only exists because of Bungie sloppiness and lack of attention to detail, sure they could make it intentional but i don't think it's worth it. I think they just need a much more open setup to really tie up loose ends and pave the way for just experiencing more exciting gameplay opportunities and exploring cool new environments. Less nonsense about reality bending PARACAUSAL tedium and existential apocalypses. The most compelling lore from Destiny imo is the 2018-19 speculation about the Drifter, just watch some of the pre/early Jokers Wild lore videos, holy CRAP so good. The idea that he was more than he appeared, potentially THE big bad was just awesome, i was highly disappointed when it turned out he was just a sadsack self pitying loser. I say Bungie place the Drifter as the next villain, the only setup being that he's somehow killed off the Nine (seemingly effortlessly like he could have done so all along) and maybe the Haul is suddenly joined with a fleet of FACTION ships, very final seconds a bunch of red-eyed Ghosts (but they are more like Gun Drones) shows up behind him, Evil Humans = Evil Guardians, next saga achieved.

[@KapasaGamer]

Just discovered you. Keep going man, I'm enjoying the content

[@sanchansama9356]

GREAT POINT!! I want the last part of the ending to the Legendary Campaign in Final Shape to be some Reference to the, "Majestic, Majestic.." line & the "K*ll Them & take Their Stuff" line, ABSOLUTELY 2 of My Favorite parts of the Books of Sorrow 🙏🏽🙏🏽💯💯

[@KalanosYT]

FFXIV's most recent expansion basically had us kill "God", in a sense. Furthermore an entity we thoguht since day 1 would be the big bad, turned out not to be the big bad and we fought an even bigger bad. Next expansion we are going on a beach trip. But it feels good. It feels right. I hope Bungie can somehow pull this off with Destiny and make further stories interesting after the big world ending threat is solved.

[@nankaq9909]

I agree, The New Bigger Death Star(TM) isn't the best idea for a sequel

[@joker_gaming6354]

Always love your content man. Haven’t played since season of the witch, haven’t even kept up with release dates or anything. I can only hope that they have a plan laid out for post-final shape

[@SmolShippie]

From my understanding you're not a bungie hater but rather a picky fan, you're super picky about the kind of story presented to you, you enjoy certain methods of storytelling and do not enjoy others. I am the same but for graphics and music, for story I just wanna be a superhero and shoot guy but I am glad that you define what makes you enjoy yourself in art so well!

[@michaelchesnut865]

I'd honestly rather see a few expansions dedicated to Nezarec, but at his full power and untethered by the Witness. But I have lost most of my faith in Bungie's ability to tell a compelling story anymore.

[@cordovalark5295]

Which is why I don't think there will be a Destiny 3, or another expansion after the "episodes". That is unless Sony steps in. Cause remember each episode only last 18 weeks... enough time for them to ship Marathon and, in their hopeful minds, deliver decent numbers. After that the Destiny IP will be quietly abandoned. Remember it turns 10 this year, Bungie abandoned Halo after 10 years. They cannot form a new company to keep the Destiny IP alive this time though.

[@TheNealo]

I imagine some bungie boss is like ‘write that down”. Good video

[@Youcancallmeishmaell]

The Witness not simply being the Winnower, was Bungie's mistake.

[@go2nrg]

I believe the Witness is the Winnower that is described in the Unveiling lore book. The Winnower, I don’t believe, is a separate entity or “father” of darkness.

[@Youcancallmeishmaell]

@@go2nrg To that is an obvious retcon. I feel that right after Witchqueen was shipped, the direction of the writing was changed. The Witness was originally supposed to be the Winnower. But someone changed their mind.

[@go2nrg]

@@Youcancallmeishmaell based on what? There’s currently nothing else implying the Witness isn’t the Winnower described in the Unveiling lore book. They talk about the flower game in the lore book and the only one who keeps mentioning a game in Destiny is the Witness. Its literal line is “there are no more pieces to place. The game is over.” The Witness is the Winnower. The Winnower is not the Veil or some dark entity above the Witness, I believe. If anything, the Ahsa cutscene implies the Traveler/Gardener is actively trying to not rejoin with the Veil for some reason. I believe this reason will be the set up for the next saga, but I don’t believe it’s a dark entity known as the Winnower as that title is for The Witness itself.

[@Youcancallmeishmaell]

@go2nrg No, the natural progression of story would lead the main Villain to be to the Winnower what the Traveler is to the Gardener.

[@go2nrg]

@@Youcancallmeishmaell the inverse of the Traveler has been confirmed in game to be the Veil. The Ahsa cutscene confirmed this. The Veil is not named the Winnower in the cutscene. It is distinctly named Veil. But the Traveler was named as the Gardener in that same video. The Winnower as named in the Unveiling lore book and the opening cutscene of D2 as the “Traveler’s ancient enemy” is the Witness.

[@FelixRaycher]

I'm afraid my own suggestions about the Winnower might sound like a fan fic again, but whatever, here's what I think MAY be done for improvement of the game's future: -Let the Winnower be active through the entire lifespan of the next saga (5-10 years, even if it means moving to D3 with some dope cliffhanger); it starts with him and ends on him, -Let him actively speak to us, from time to time, not even sounding superior, but with a respect and asking questions about literally everything, old or new stuff from the lore, to try and shake our mind (even if it all goes to waste and he'd be aware of that!), -Let him be the one who's behind certain major events and figures who happen to be our next targets, like Savathun was, again not too often, -And by major, I mean things like properly introducing the Lysander and Concordat as new enemies of the Last City (not humanity itself) with split up Witness race joining them(!). Maybe him "giving" a voice to Vex to let us hear their thoughts as well - this can be tricky due to hive mind nature clash with singular units but who cares, i'm still salty Quria being underwhelming despite having some significant lore. -Maybe placing some double agent in Last City or a quiet watcher? That could be revealed later, but not being easy to spot at the same time. Aside from point one, the rest is daydreaming.

[@SunbroJoe]

I mean, I know Rhulk calls us "children of light" but we use and understand darkness more now. And the Witness started out as a light bearing people, so I don't think we're specifically opposing "children" of the light and dark.

[@keanumanusama1174]

i think the final shape and the episodes will be about either killing or making peace with the remaining enemy factions in the game. the final shape after we kill the witness i presume the taken will disapear with it. echoes will be about making piece with the vex as i presume because we have been given hints about their intent as not just killing humanity. revenant will be about killing Fikrul and the remaining scorn as they are just mindless zombies who can't be saved. heresy will be about us finally making peace with Xivu Arath and the remaining hive as she has been shown to have doubt about the constant killing. and with that we killed of every enemy and made the most amount of chums and it could be a really good point to leave destiny 2 on for now as they make marathon and matter for a bit.

[@Team_ghost9503]

I always thought the Light and the Dark Saga was meant in regards to power and meaning but not the fight itself between the two beings. Like D1, you got the City and the Taken King going at it with these ideas of Light and Dark being two opposing forces, the powers reflect good and bad. But that slowly changes in D2. Beyond light reflects the fact that the power isn’t bad but those who command them may not handle it correctly or morally. Go off from that and you got LightFall that digs deeper into how the darkness abilities aren’t what we imagine them to be but how they’re going by a different set of rules via strand connecting the universal weave. Like light isn’t just creation and Darkness isn’t just destruction though they have capabilities similar to one another and may encompass those forms they also lay within the realm of matter and mind, physical being and consciousness. And Final shape with the Witness is the confrontation of a being who uses both aspects for personal gain (their final shape) because imposing meaning upon a meaningless universe is their plan. For how strong they are it’s kinda ironic how desperate they are as they’ll lie , cheat and slaughter civilizations because they’re working on the idea that the ends justify the means. Which if the Winnower does appear I do hope they’re a being that doesn’t lie and follows their doctrine to a full extent because they believe in it full.

[@Hybrid_Guy23]

I have an idea that’s interesting but will also help Bungie not need to make a whole new race which I can see them doing. Timeline jumping. The Vex are from the future/another timeline, so I Imagine they become some threat after the witness is gone that allows them to become a huge threat of their own. This would allow us to find their origin and try to defeat them, and in this case we could jump to another timeline where the vex are raining supreme. Another timeline where the Fallen are not our friends, the hive gods are running rampant, and the scorn were never made(plz delete), and the guardian are non existent. Hopefully they don’t just reuse the same characters that have died already, but a new set of Everyone. We don’t need a Multiverse of madness, alternate version of all the Heros/villains.

[@G0ldB0t]

I'm honestly hoping we die killing the witness, and the effects/ events of the final shape are used to fracture or reboot how the universe works right now. I'd be down for something more mysterious, with new locations other than sol/ the same enemies we've been fighting forever now. I'd be more interested in being an average/ just another guardian in a different scale of conflict. Something less heroic/ more grounded. (At least to start). I'm not too crazy on the notion on only chasing bigger/ more expansive threats in perpetuity, it just gets boring over time. There's plenty of room in the universe to tell smaller stories that still have meaningful stakes without just going onto constantly bigger and bigger threats MCU style.

[@andrewrukujzo5102]

Unveiling is fabricated legend by the Witness’s race of the creation of the universe. It is not canon lore, so the Winnower is not a real confirmed character.

[@noumena6456]

I think this train of thought is flawed because the dark, and by extension, the winnower, is not inherently evil. It is also more than likely that it is just a paracausal force just like the light/gardener. It has also never been confirmed or implied that it is a real entity. More importantly, the winnower being the big bad behind the witness is repeating the same cycle as the witness being the big bad behind savathun; which is the whole of light dark saga. So you would essentially be repeating and continue the same saga ad nauseum. I think bungie needs to end the light and dark saga and leave it behind with Destiny 2. Perhaps take a few years hiatus. Then comeback strong with Destiny 3. With a brand new story and conflict, and yes, probably brand new villains with new motivations, and a conflict that spans far beyond the light and dark, guardians, and humanity.

[@BladesofElysian]

I agree, back when TTK was added I remember getting hyped when they specified Sol System/Milky Way Galaxy in the directory. Why would they specify which Galaxy we are in when there's only one choice. I hope D3 allows us to chart untold systems and routinely venture beyond.

[@saidsaleh9618]

gonna need some future stuff involving some characters being able to literally see the player and trying to communicate with them like Quoria from season of splicer and the Ahamkara (legit they inserted that in the skull of dire ahamkara lore tab) and wanting to step into our world cuz Bungie just threw that in like "here you go" and had no elaboration.

[@dimshds]

curious as to why anyone would take what is being stated in Unveiling as gospel but whatever also blue balling us by saying the "true darkness guy" isnt dead yet would be catastrophic

[@dustin_echoes]

Once the Witness lost its mystery, it became just another boring bad guy with some goal that sounds profound but is actually just pretentious. It even got triggered like a regular thug just because Calus dissed it a little bit. 😂

[@stevethetitan414]

It would be nice if the light and the darkness just died or killed off and we had to seek out new powers and abilities through another entity or force. Introducing new planets, races and characters

[@John_II]

I think the next saga - if I were writing it - would be to send us out of own solar system. Our Destiny is exploration, not a new threat... although more will be out there. Go to Fundament, go to the Eliksni home world (it's in ruins isn't it?), go to where the Vex come from, go to the Cabal home world, find those SIVA ships out in the stars... but go somewhere new. We'll see the legacy of the Light and Dark war in own system... go see how the rest of those worlds turned out. Then the exploration will come with new threats... ghost of old worlds, old powers long forgotten, and more for us to discover beyond light and darkness.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

Clovis was right about how the Vex are like hyperintelligent roaches, so I hope they've already machinoformed all the Zargwes of the universe :P But seriously, we've already seen what it looks like when a Bungie story gets a new asspull villain with Halo Infinite: The Endless. 343 Tried to introduce time travel into a story that didn't have it like a decade into its existence, which I consider somewhat tasteless, and I don't think it will turn out particularly good. Expect important canon events that fans care about to be wiped because they were inconvenient and the villain can time travel, and on top of that the character representing this new faction just doesn't look particularly good. Not as bad as the Witness, but still not great.

[@waynemcdonald9664]

What about reclaiming Riis and Torabatl? Going to the forge world?

[@Venextron]

That's perfectly fine for an Episode or one expansion. I'm mainly talking about another 3-5 year saga like the one we had.

[@thebeakershow]

Hoping Echoes focuses on the copies of the Ishtar research team and Praedyth. Finally getting some closure there would be huge

[@EpticityOG]

I don’t think Bugnie needs to head in the direction of “The Winnower” I think when Bungie decided on the Light and Dark being natural universal forces of nature, they were giving the hint that there was not gonna be anything beyond what we were getting with the Witness, the Traveler and the Veil. They made sure we understood that Light and Dark are like the Ying and Yang of the Destiny universe and that they cannot exist without the other. Meaning there is no purpose to confronting and destroying a supposed “master of darkness”. Because it wouldn’t make any sense anymore, it would throw away all the changes they spent working on so hard for the past couple of years and expansions. Plus as with any story it’s not about bigger and badder than the previous villain it’s about a deeper and more complex, that still posses a great danger to our existence. When Bugnie hinted at the Vex taking center stage next, I think they have something prepped, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Vex created their own version of a God. But who knows what Bungie will do, all I know is that they need to truly hook people with the new story/direction and saga if they want the Destiny franchise to continue.

[@ericcastillo4026]

That like fighting the Traveler, a no win situation, that a force of Nature, not something you can kill.

[@Soon22400]

Watch they’re going to literally pull a Forsaken again. We’re gonna kill the Witness, then he’s somehow going to get revived by a ghost just like Uldren was. He’ll then continue to be the main antagonist for another 10 years so Bungie can just tell the same seasonal stories for years to come.

[@gstrager9997]

I've been following destiny for years but I am no expert. However I could see time travel being a very interesting thing for future expansions. For instance we already know that there has been a time traveling guardian from destiny 1, and if we were to finally get to the witness but it is revealed that his actions have already taken place a thousand years ago. We might even be able to fight evil guardians as described in the past. That would make for some very interesting gameplay as well as fighting things that were only vaguely described to us.

[@phillipvonfeilitzsch2650]

I just want the ability to go rogue on destinations and be a menace to other guardians.... build that into the story and I'm in. xD

[@KillerUnicorn586]

my opinion is that if they want to do a second saga there needs to be a substantial timeskip so that they can essentially reset the whole world

[@simonwahlen7150]

Honestly I am torn between an overarching Winnover and Gardener plot going forward or atleast existing in the background like you suggest and having a continuation of the wager be the big plot behind the scenes and my opposite theory. The second theory I have is my personal theory I call the Silver Craftsmen cargo cult. We now know that the unveiling lorebook is the mythology of the pyramid race with the Traveler as the Gardener and the Witness as the first knife acting on behalf of the Winnover. This is immensly important for the witness motivation, however we don't have confirmation that their mythology is true. By taking a step back and observing what the Traveler and the Veil is and what they do and are made of we see: The Veil is made of a Tree of Silver Wings just like the black heart was grown from a Silver seed planted by the Witness duing the collapse. The Traveler can make Silver trees through teraforming and althrough it looks mechanical I am not convinced it couldn't also be made from a silver tree given the half orb form of the Veil. We have the silver tree paracausal tech that they share. The Traveler visits civilisations and uplifts them only to move on and the Veil records everything in the Universe. They both came from an unknown source and share a connection. To draw a comparison what is the first thing humanity tried sending out of the solar system? The Voyager space probe. What is the Voyagers 2 purposes? 1. To record data from outer space. 2. To deliver a golden disk with pictures of humanity, encoded music and the location of Earth to say hello to potential alien life. The Traveler and Veil could merely be a pair of transdimensional spaceprobes sent to record other universes and say hello to alien life and give gifts. It isn't the real cosmic horror of malevolent gods trying to destroy existence but a horror of it's own in that a civilsation so distant we will newer be able to meet them trying to say hello starting a cargo cult that almost destroys the universe they atempt to make contact with.

[@logan9782]

What I want from Echo's is to see the transition of vex from their current form to their descendent form.

[@OkSven]

We need something with failsafe 😢

[@Calebwyllia87]

I think they’ll move on to the 9 since they haven’t really had any dlc relevance so having the war between the 9 would be cool

[@MuzcleJinx.]

If the Winnower is real and we get to fight the embodiment of the darkness a cool concept for the final boss in the story or raid could be a darkness clone of us that can use the same guns and abilities as us.

[@midgetconi1811]

What if instead of being stretched out to the next possible dlc, everything you said about the winnower is a part of the raid? We defeat the big flashy witness during the story and then have to snuf out the winnower as a fireteam of 6. Sorta like "killing" oryx during ttk and finishing him off at the end of kings fall

[@Venextron]

I'd be all for that.

[@chocco87]

I’d take the nine. Or maybe some of the races/species somehow make a comeback that the Hive slaughtered

[@MIISTAA]

im still holding out hope that after beating the witness the universe will be open to us. like right now the universe seems so small i think the witness had uses some sort of darkness magic to keep the destiny universe in a small bubble but there is more once we beat him we can go out further. kinda like in undead unluck when the galaxy Uma was created the universe was opened

[@BladesofElysian]

I don't know... That Zorpoloid tangent seemed pretty compelling.

[@SunbroJoe]

What about mopping up the Witness in the campaign/first raid encounter and having the raid pull a Rhulk and give us the Winnower as the surprise main raid boss?

[@iHN518]

Bungie doesn’t like adhering to the lore and has shown they are willing to change it. They don’t like the community having expectations.

[@ripper12322]

What if the guardians turn? After the Final Shape a guardian stands up and finds out how to manipulate the traveler into keeping their "light" but use it for evil. How about it is one of the vanguard and as we defeat the witness they see themselves as a god and decides to become more of a tyrant over all life? Better yet work this into the Winnower maybe turning a vanguard leader to their side and we having to fight someone we've been working with side by side for years and then let it be a real consequence to the world, that NPC disappears completely when we defeat them?

[@hey_its_travis]

I would love to see something more powerful than the witness. The actual power behind the darkness, not just some guy who uses it. Witness seems just like a leveled up oryx. Hell even if we team up with taox to take out xivu in heresy. Such a mess.

[@brnnoYT]

I would love a destiny 3 after the episodes but we all know that ain’t happening, so I see it as a chance for bungie to do a wild refresh. Players are bored of season after season of clueless stories with no meaning into the story just to buy a anual expansion and play for a few weeks until they get bored, in my opinion the final shapes is going to determine the life of destiny, it’s their chance to revive the game because it’s not in a good spot right now, it all started with beyond light that basically did more bad for the game than good, of course the witch queen was great but light fall hyped us just to underdeliver because it was just a little story with no meaning at all cause we didn’t even see the witness. We need a wild story and a wild follow up with the episodes a good idea would be reclaiming the solar system and destroying our enemies on the episodes but who knows what will happen because bungie don’t even know what to do. I love the idea of destiny 3 because it would be a change, since light and dark ends they should make a new game in my opinion.

[@LordOwenTheThird]

After the final shape I'd love for things to just settle. We just saved the world, give humanity a chance to settle down and rebuild! What would the last city look like when we integrate the fallen/cabal fully into human society? What would a second golden age look like with these three races working in tandem? In this new world, maybe the last city will become the first city? Maybe a decade gap to let the world breathe and re posture before moving onto whatever Bungie wants to explore next. Let our actions have meaningful long term affects and all that. Hell, maybe it'll take 10 years to build a coalition fleet capable of an assault against the hive on Torobatl? Once we're finished with that, maybe we could explore Riis now that the black fleet is finished, or other planets/worlds with alien races that are intelligent but incapable of space travel. (You could get real cheeky and reintroduce the tiger men from the cutting room floor of D1).

[@arturolucianoal]

Also, the first episode, we could have clovis in some shape or form, i would really love to see what that madman is cooking

[@nankaq9909]

I know it's probably about Clovis AI, but honestly I'd love to see a Bray family reunion with Ana, Elsie and Banshee. Especially Ana's reaction as she doesn't(?) know who Bansee really is

[@arturolucianoal]

@@nankaq9909 banshee is too underutilized in the current story, he doesn't have the relevance he could've had

[@tomekk.1889]

Wasn't winnower retconned to be the witness?

[@navi0760]

Wasn’t really a retcon? To me the retcon was that the unveiling was just half truths.

[@tomekk.1889]

@@navi0760 I can promise ypu that until Witch Queen witness didn't exist in the story

[@navi0760]

@@tomekk.1889 well yeah we didn’t hear the name “the witness” ever but in that final cutscene we could assume that they were one in the same. especially because the winnower says they’re coming and then the witness shows up. So yeah they’ve always been hinted to be one I the same

[@tomekk.1889]

@@navi0760 You misunderstand. The witness never existed before witch queen because the writers had no idea what they were doing. He was only introduced because they knew they had to close the saga in 3 expansions somehow. Lazy lazy lazt

[@navi0760]

@@tomekk.1889 sure because that’s how game design works

[@DuxSupremus]

You've hit the nail on the head (without explicitly saying it) that there's nowhere else to go from here. How does Bungie write a villain bigger than a fundamental force of the multiverse? It can't meaningfully do so. They were already aiming so high at philosophical concepts that they can't escalate. They can only make the threat more personal, and that doesn't count for much when you can kill gods that have become concepts, and don't have much of personal value to lose. We see Marvel struggling with a similar problem (in concept, not scale) in trying to move from Thanos to Kang the Conqueror. The execution is simply not credible. Bungie has given little reason to believe they'll pull the table cloth off while leaving the dishes either.

[@Venextron]

You get it ;)

[@FirewoodGingerAle]

I dont think the Winnower nor the Gardener can be killed. If I understand correctly, they are basically the ones who seeded life and death, energy, and entropy in the Destiny universe. They are innate forces of the universe. When the Gardener got fed up with the same ending to the flower game - she proposed a trump card: the Traveler. The Winnower likely chose the Veil. Its corruotive power corrupted the race the Witness belongs to - like the apple of Eden, tempting them to make the world according to their own design by doing what they attempted to do: combine the veil with the traveler. The traveler can be killed, as can the Witness. But if the Gardener and Winnower die? Light is removed, Dark is removed from the universe. Then, the Destiny universe would be like ours (imo, obviously) - devoid of any deities and their influence, or at least something akin to the Age of Stars ending of Elden Ring (Ranni removes the greater wills influence, leading to a "hand-off" type world).

[@artistinthewambulance]

... did bro just say not interested in Taox? I mean sure she isn't major threat by any means (she's Krill after all) but she's on of THE most important characters in the history of the Hive, and the Destiny universe. I'd love to finally see her in Heresy, or maybe a Torabatal expansion.

[@Venextron]

The key part there is Heresy is an Episode, and you mentioned one expansion. I used her as an example of what I don't want to see multiple expansions build up towards. For comparison, at the bare minimum will have had five expansions about the Witness.

[@artistinthewambulance]

@@Venextron ah that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

[@Flamme-Sanabi]

Personally, I would like the stakes to go down again. Maybe have the next part be more internal, Last City go issues, after all.

[@FALLEN_CERBERUS]

The only viable options I see happening are the winnower but also the vex. Unless these episodes are longer than we think there is no chance In hell we defeat the vex in echos

[@zealobiron]

Your thumbnail is my profile pic!

[@Tigerbro6]

thats the sad thing about destiny, I don't actually trust current bungie to get a new storyline going. I hope we get the gardener as a new character. that would be a good way to set up the winnower and make the future more interesting. THe main thing about hte traveler is how they're faceless. I feel like destiny at this moment has its greatest points with character writing, speacially during the past seasons with zavala's development in haunted.

[@makscepura3572]

What about the witness disciples?

[@stevethetitan414]

sorry new to the channel. whats the title of the gardener video?

[@Venextron]

The title is "Why I still have hope for a Gardener reveal." You can either watch the edited 9 minute video, or the full version, which is an edited vod of a stream where I went really in-depth into it.

[@lordsaladito]

I play Final Fantasy 14 and in 2021 something similar happened with Final Shape, which closes the narrative arc that was built for 10 years. What they are doing now is releasing one more chill expansion (the goal is not to save the universe, but to enter a competition for a throne) but they will also start putting things that lead to the events of the next 10 years, I feel like destiny should do something similar, a relaxing and not so serious dlc that starts the next saga

[@chpoppinggaming]

this is a certified r/destinycirclejerk classic

[@seph1759]

Bungie is only capable of one destiny future, having the guardians go back in time using vex tech and having us replay D1 and D2 all over again to prevent the collapse 😂

[@Saint-8]

If we kill the witness in the campaign, then we might dome or meet the winnower in the raid.

[@Hardrive2677]

I don’t have enough faith in Bungie for an epic pay off like introducing the winnower. I really don’t put it past them to retcon the gardener and winnower completely. The witness and the veil really did mess up the story it’s disappointing.

[@element9387]

Im not super tied into the lore so forgive me if im wrong. But i feel that the witness is the winnower. The winnower is more of a concept than an actual being. The overarching story in the witness origins cutscene is that they became what they desired. They merged themselves into the salvation they craved to impose meaning on the travelers meaningless universe

[@navi0760]

Randomly found your channel through the algorithm so I haven’t seen all your videos. But I was shocked to hear that you think that the Winnower and the Witness are different beings . Bungie themselves kinda proved that the Winnower is the Witness, and was just telling half truths to us in the unveiling. I forget when but i believe in an interview a writer stated something about how perception was important to the interpretation of the unveiling. Also we can use logic to figure that out. We learn that the winnower is coming, and who shows up? The Witness. The winnower has its own final shape, and there’s only one other character we know who’s trying to achieve to a final shape? The Witness. I’d love to see why you think they’re different characters. That interview is pretty damning evidence.

[@Shahmane666]

Are people not considering the fact that Destiny, as a story/universe and as a video game franchise, might just end after TFS and the few epsiodes, and Bungie will entirely move on and focus on the future with Marathon and new IPs? Or am i missing something (i.e. its confirmed that there will be new content after the 3 episodes)?