How The Final Shape Confirmed the Winnower | Destiny 2 Theory :0)

[@neofly]

it's interesting that, if the Deep is a place, the tablets of ruin then have a single power: teleportation so, basically Oryx can either teleport himself to the deep, or bring the deep to a local ogre; or they can teleport an enemy to the deep to make them Taken, or teleport a thing like Savathun teleported the Traveler

[@lucaricci1987]

I have a feeling we’ll have more Winnower info in Heresy, an Eldrich force…

[@nicholascazmay2126]

@@lucaricci1987 Agreed - I think we’re going to see a much purer form of the sword logic that only Oryx truly had a grasp on the nature of.

[@Darkside_1994]

I think the Winnower seeks a shape. It doesn’t care if it’s the Witness’s Final Shape or Sword Logic. Just an endpoint of the Universe.

[@Jesuslover2000]

Idk, the Winnower implied preference toward the Hive's Final Shape

[@nicholascazmay2126]

I do think the Winnower is somewhat ambivalent about it - it sees a Final Shape as inevitable, Witness or not.

[@Lwynn4796]

I think the winnower wants the game to keep going while the witness was essentially hitting pause on the game forever as soon as you win

[@pewpew9582]

I agree. The Witness says in the raid, something along the lines of it being the first knife, shaped by a god, but the one who shapes the knife can’t tell the knife how to cut/shape. The Winnower might be more in line with sword logic, but if The Witness can subjugate and finalize the entire universe, I think that proves its right to existence.

[@Shapes_Quality_Control]

The problem is the Winnower if it does exist is completely ignorant of the natural and logical conclusions of its logic. Oryx understood that the Sword logic will naturally lead to the Final Shape. The Witness did too. The Winnower is in denial about where its aims lead.

[@alter6243]

I actually think it was confirmed with Lightfall as well. Maya hears her own voice when researching the Veil. It couldn’t have been the Witness because then it would have known the Veil was hidden in Sol. The Winnower is practically the only option.

[@jacobboucher777]

So in that case, the Winnower talked to us at the of Shadowkeep not the Witness?

[@numanumatard]

Yes. In shadowfall, pronouns were I

[@numanumatard]

Hard to tell. It uses We. Im dumb

[@samhuffer7005]

@@jacobboucher777 Most likely not, since the Witness would by that time have been aware of the Guardians and on its way to Sol, and whichever of them spoke to us had the physicality (hands together in front of its chest), speech patterns and pronoun usage ("We are your salvation." The Witness is the one that used the plural pronoun, and is the one who was always banging on about salvation.) of the Witness, not the ones exhibited by the Winnower (verbose, casual, "Majestic. Majestic.") when Oryx communed with him.

[@ZugaTurrelai]

There is another line from the raid that is important in this distinction between witness and the winnower. “We are both forged by gods, but the hand does not tell the knife what shape to cut”

[@alessandricedric1995]

Luzaku does call The Traveler "The Gardener"

[@re11ek]

Because she's a dumb wizard

[@bobisconsumed520]

Bungie really pushed the Witness being the “first knife” in this expansion and even Mara asked who wields the Witness.

[@dawnchaser5589]

I really want to believe this, but there's a feather in one of the Cyst missions that has the characters seemingly saying that all of these titles are just that, titles from different civilizations. I wish there was a video going over all of the Cyst feathers because they have some of the most revealing lore in the game rn. Great Video!

[@Darkside_1994]

Wait, really?

[@realjevans]

they can all still be titles and the winnower could still be real

[@DB6195]

**SPOILERS** The following is supposedly a datamined portion of the raid lore book. EDIT CONFIRMED BITCHES! >!Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books. Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope-and I would certainly have missed you. Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved. Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once. Are you surprised to hear of it? Yes, I never much cared for the change of rules, but here we are, and there's no use in crying over spilled radiolaria. Besides, at the heart of it all, there was a gift. To me. That gift is the chance to speak with you. You, and a billion like you. I am making this offer over and over again, in every tiniest cell and the vastest of civilizations. Let me in. Take what you need. Be at ease. You have no say in the degradation of your telomeres, but in all the interim, the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish. You exist because you have been more suited to it than all the others. Steal what you require from another rather than spend the hours to build it yourself. Break foolish rules-why would you love regulation? It serves you to cross lines, and if others needed rules to protect them, then they were not after all worthy of that existence. Caricatures of villainy are out of style, I hear. Yes. I am no cackling mastermind: I am serious when I say this. It was not the trick of standing upright that lifted you from the dust: it was the mastery of fire, the cooking of cold corpse-meat. That is not any unique faction's province, neither good nor evil. It is simply truth. This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice. Be seeing you.

[@WIC47]

"I'm not so easy to be rid of" and "my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time" are total disses at the Witness.

[@hey_its_travis]

I need to read the rest of the book now. Lol

[@jadenyuki2031]

The Winnower sounds like a chill dude haha, I can see the Winnower admiring us as we basicly like the Witness said seek endless challenge.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

​@@WIC47I think the bit about the "necrolite" is an allusion to Oryx. Necro means death, and Oryx called himself the first navigator who charted death. OTOH, The Witness said things like "enough death, enough life" so I don't think using necrolite fits as well for it/them.

[@Girsu0]

@@xXx_Regulus_xXxnah it wouldn’t make sense to be oryx because the winnower already complimented him during unveiling waaay after oryx died.

[@djmoonbass]

Byf introduced me to you with your 1.2hr unveiling video. Bro. Thank you SO much for your passion. I immensely enjoyed your take, your dialogue, your organization and presentation. I really admire your dedication. 100% subbing to this channel.

[@Venextron]

Thank you :)

[@Dietghostscp2107]

The world the winnowermis mocking is the world the witness species comes from.

[@ab_destiny]

Been looking forward to your video! I’m very excited for the rest of the raid lore to come out, the narrative team knows what they’re doing so hopefully the raid lore tells us more. I still need to go into the lore concerning the Traveler, but from what I’ve seen the Gardener implications are also pretty potent. Thank you for the mention too, I appreciate your support man it means a lot :)

[@PhotonBread]

I think the Traveler and Veil are the Gardener and Winnower or at the very least vessels of themselves or vessels of their power

[@chrisreilly1290]

I never noticed the Venextron ghost talking animation! That's so cool

[@danielstrang4999]

I liked the Final Shape, but it feels like a conclusion to the Traveler vs Black Fleet saga, not the Light vs Dark more broadly. In many ways this is a good thing as there are still more interesting stories to be told. However, I still have unanswered questions about the nature of the Gardener and the Winnower and how they relate to the in game universe of Destiny.

[@detectivestudios7699]

It feels so good to finally start getting more Winnower in the lore.

[@eotwkdp]

Technically the light isn’t necessarily good… once the light heals. The traveler will bless others once again. The winnower will smile and wonder how the guardians will react when the light blesses so many not all will be peaceful. Oh never an enemy to the traveler but too other blessed.. they must pick up a knife.

[@SlimeyZockt]

I feel like the Winnower gave us unveiling because he wants to set things straight, that he is not the one controling the first knife, the Witness since their goals are so different

[@IvoryTempestCandleOfStories]

Glad to see you up and running, Venextron! Glad to see you've overcome that nefarious sickness you made known. You could almost say in overcoming it, you've proven your right to exist over it, haven't you? Pardon my poor reference, I wanted to say thank you for coming back! It's nice to hear from you again. And it is wonderful to have the Winnower actually teased in the lore. I also wanted to say, don't worry about Nezarec. I am working on a video that explains a theory of mine that may reveal the truth to Nezarec's origins, his ability to come back to life, and most importantly, why he died, and what he's going to do in the future. My apologies for the self promo, just hoped I could raise your spirits on the topic of the Final God of Pain. Nezarec may not be what he was originally set up to be, but I believe he is SO much more than what you think we got. I am working relentlessly on this video, if you are interested, stay tuned.

[@RespiteofChampions]

While I DESPERATELY want to believe this, this expansion ALSO blurred the lines HEAVILY by allowing the possibility that simply the Traveler IS the Gardener and the Veil IS the Winnower.

[@Hardrive2677]

I think that was implied before this expansion. The winnower and gardener still exist and their game is real. Not a story made up by the witness. That’s what matters. I can only assume their entities exist inside of the traveler and veil.

[@RespiteofChampions]

@@Hardrive2677 It was implied before this expansion and stil could be considered even after the main campaign is over. I haven't touched the raid or it's lore yet, so maybe it's more confirmed there, but even after the main campaign is over, you could still consider that the Traveler might just be the Gardener and the Veil might just be the Winnower.

[@Sohelanthropus]

Finally a knowledgeable creator speaks on this, tired of all the other vids not knowing what they're talking about Thanks Venextron, I personally think the Winnower isn't as neutral as we may have thought

[@alter6243]

I agree. My main question is that does the Winnower/Veil have the same level of agency that the Traveler has? The Veil let itself be used by the Witness’ disciples and didn’t prevent Savathun from hiding it. But it also reached out to Maya and is allowing the Neomuni to use quite a bit of its power.

[@Lwynn4796]

@@alter6243Maybe it’s because the universe is still moving forward? Without needing to do anything the patterns being formed are cutting themselves or gaining power. The veil is kind of still helping with that by empowering factions and causing conflict over it

[@jojak0512]

@@alter6243 The way I see it is the Veil lets itself be used and moved around because the Winnower believes that his final shape will naturally come to pass so why not just sit back and relax while you watch the game win itself for you.

[@No_videos_added]

​@@jojak0512, this would work but the traveler/Gardener is not letting it happen. Maybe this'll cause the winnower to finally make a move? Idk, just speculating.

[@ShadowoftheMask]

I get feeling that while Winnower tries to convince beings to believe in its idealogy, it really didn't like Witness (the Witness even says that while its the First Knife, the knive chooses shape it carves implying that Winnower doesn't control it) and its methods. Like Winnower seems to want to be proven right while the Witness was trying to force the shape, defeating the point of winning the game.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

13:38 the winnower had a reason, the witness was gonna stop everything. The witness wanted the end, the gardener and winnower want changes. The winnower doesnt care what changes and the gardener has a preference because the gardener is all of us or we embody it like the witness was the winnower but it misunderstood and just became a knofe

[@Hardrive2677]

So happy they didn’t completely retcon the winnower. I’m sure some things like the statues have been changed but it seems like the core idea of what happened in the garden still exists. So exciting.

[@BatM-l6j]

I think...the winnower will come out to fix the game. Remember the flower game? The winnower loved the game, and he wouldn't break the rules, unless we did, then he will come out and fix it. We are one of the flowers (humanity), we are allowed 2 or 3 neighbouring flowers (awoken, cabal, fallen), the 4th one will kill us(hive) BUT we're still alive and blooming, and we didn't get rid of the lucent hive although they're our enemies. The game is broken, and someone will fix it, the gardener won't BUT the winnower will, especially if we tried to gain another allie.

[@princekeiii]

2:10 Good looking out my g 😅 had NO IDEA that was there

[@bigboss2481]

We are most likely to start exploring the winnowers character in the Hersey episode since the winnower has ties to the hive and the fact that the devs said something about an eldritch being that has been bubbling to the surface Also the fact that we are returning to the dreadnought could also mean we are gonna get our hands on the tablets oryx used

[@MrMeddyman]

I'm glad you annotated that the First Knife is not a title that was bestowed or that has continuity from the Garden but that the Witness straight up just dubbed itself "the First Knife".

[@MrVidman14]

I think it should be mentioned that Oryx while being one of the most powerful practitioners of the Sword Logic was by his Nature a seeker of knowledge, and I think his role of the Great Navigator was what The Deep liked the most about him Which I think makes sense as the Darkness is linked to the mind and Consciousness and the Veil seems to be a sort of repository of information and knowledge (at least that what I think it is to some extent)

[@Luckydave123]

Hey ven, a week ago i posted the leaked lore about the winnower here and i and many others thought it was from the raid. Then people said it was fake because the raid lore book was completed and this lore was not in it. But as of today it is available ingame ! It was not shown due to a Bug that was fixed today ! So yeah, new lore where the winnower speaks to us

[@Venextron]

YOU SPOKE THE TRUTH

[@ringomandingo1015]

Dude, The Final Shape really made me like The Witness and I wish we coulda got more out of it in the year of Lightfall or Witch Queen! It would have been awesome to see it talk about its past more. (And personally the Idea of Finality isn’t too repulsive to me, just maybe we coulda asked the Witness to tweak it to where it’s like the Neomuni and their Cloudark with their bodies held in Stasis but their minds walk free.)

[@kyleespinoza7201]

I've been looking forward to this one.

[@chloec4009]

If we start to hear more discussions about the Winnower tangibly, it seems to me the "eldritch force shaking up the Hive pantheon" in Heresy is the place to start. Maybe its a red herring but that's where the signs point to me.

[@ihbupontyne]

My theory right now is the that the gardener in unveiling “making a new rule” was the traveler. Think about it, the traveler rose from the ground like it were a plant on the witness’ homeworld. This upset the winnower who then helped forge the witness which caused the traveller to flee, just like how the gardener ran from the winnower.

[@Gyhsjgj]

IT'S HERE!!!

[@Gyhsjgj]

Also another thing; has anyone heard the godkiller voiceline?

[@chrisquinn3377]

Not sure

[@Ethanshmeethan00]

8:18 you trying to kill us 😂

[@Jacobk-g7r]

5:22 yes the abyss is full of the infinite but also unknown so dark. We will explore aka shine light into the darkness. Become one with the deep and become a gardener revealing the depths.

[@luisferd3319]

I don't think you are a Winnower simp. Even Evan1997 uploaded a video about the confirmed existence of the Winnower today. You are just saying actual lore content. I am so happy this narrative is still alive!

[@Dras7]

I can imagine that if (and it’s a big if) Bungie is going to continue down these plot points they will use your Winnower video as a reference for the story threads lol. I can’t imagine this was their original direction pre WQ for the Witness character at all, they built it out along the way for sure.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

When you align with something, you can predict it or share its thoughts, the witness only saw the differences and sought to end it. Maybe the witness got lost when seeing and sought the ending. Witnessed too much and went mad. Couldn’t see or hear the winnower anymore because it unaligned.

[@skullknight4579]

As a cosmere fan, the gardener and winnower remind of preservation and Ruin

[@michaelchesnut865]

Guardians literally becoming almost like Harmony in this expansion, too.

[@skullknight4579]

@@michaelchesnut865 YES so true.

[@samhuffer7005]

I have had this thought before. And the Winnower and Ruin both get so upset when their opposite breaks the rules (Preservation reneging on its agreement of letting Ruin destroy, the Gardener adding a new rule that might upend the possibility of a Final Shape emerging).

[@koma4561]

Keep up the good work! Always looking forward to your videos ❤

[@andremedeiros8031]

Today, the ship named "Nacre" was updated, and the lore we thought was in the Rubicon raid lorebook was added to this ship. Here is the lore entry: "*Even the most perfect of pearls has grit at its center.* Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books. Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope-and I would certainly have missed you. Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved. Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once. Are you surprised to hear of it? Yes, I never much cared for the change of rules, but here we are, and there's no use in crying over spilled radiolaria. Besides, at the heart of it all, there was a gift. To me. That gift is the chance to speak with you. You, and a billion like you. I am making this offer over and over again, in every tiniest cell and the vastest of civilizations. Let me in. Take what you need. Be at ease. You have no say in the degradation of your telomeres, but in all the interim, the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish. You exist because you have been more suited to it than all the others. Steal what you require from another rather than spend the hours to build it yourself. Break foolish rules-why would you love regulation? It serves you to cross lines, and if others needed rules to protect them, then they were not after all worthy of that existence. Caricatures of villainy are out of style, I hear. Yes. I am no cackling mastermind: I am serious when I say this. It was not the trick of standing upright that lifted you from the dust: it was the mastery of fire, the cooking of cold corpse-meat. That is not any unique faction's province, neither good nor evil. It is simply truth. This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice. Be seeing you."

[@giancarlo5945]

Finally it was confirmed, many thought we were crazy but we always knew the truth the winnower is real

[@Azakadune]

So the “reunion” between family probably made the awoken… mother is the light and darkness is the father…. So they fucked, cool.

[@nicholascazmay2126]

Some interesting things to consider: 1. We may learn considerably more about the Witness and any history it had with the Winnower in the next few episodes. 3 echoes created in the wake of the Winnower’s death is no coincidence, and as confluences as both light and dark it’s entirely reasonable to think they have to ability to make manifest the very memories of the Witness… and maybe even the Traveler. 2. The episodes vidoc mentions that Heresy is going to involve the awakening of an eldritch force - given the obvious tie in to the Hive, Oryx, and the sword logic, I wouldn’t be surprised if we maybe experience a purer manifestation of that logic soon. 3. To your point, I think it’s clear now that both the Winnower and Traveler have a vested interest in limiting their direct intervention, to a point. The Traveler intervenes in its own self-defense - the Winnower acts to manipulate, but otherwise allows actions to unfold on their own… So the question is, what would it take for the Winnower to be convinced to intervene more directly? My thoughts go back to its closing lines of Wager in Unveiling… “Don't hurry to deliver your answer. I'll come over and hear it myself.”

[@MrVidman14]

So what your saying is that the Gardener is a Active observer and the Winnower is a passive observer

[@nicholascazmay2126]

@@MrVidman14 I suppose, yes. The Traveler awakens potential and then lets it make its own choice. The Winnower seeks that potential and tests it - not so directly but with coercion. It poses the truth, or at least a fraction of the truth, before those it sees as capable and sees what they do. It ultimately matters little to the Winnower what we do or don’t do - someone else will take our place in the game of flowers if we fail. The Traveler plants the seeds of potential, and the Winnower plants the seed of doubt, which will either lead to the being’s destruction or ascendence. Either way, in the Winnower’s mind, he’s proving his point and always at the Traveler’s expense. The Winnower drops poison into the garden of potential and then sits back and watches the patterns destroy each other.

[@blaire4115]

Winnower reveal are strong words.

[@jesseritchie9282]

Because it's real. The raid has confirmed it, and now we must think!

[@shisuiuchiha2159]

@@jesseritchie9282agreed

[@15liran]

If you say the raid team cooked the thats satisfying enough for me. The story was amazing and the ending was beautiful with the avengers moment. My only gripe is that the “bigger answers” aren’t as clear as they should be with this being the “end of the light and dark saga”. I would just like to mention that the veil played no part in the story here besides how it was used by the precursors to merge into the Witness. Also the Traveler remaining as ambiguous as ever was a let down, as well as what witness was exactly doing in the raid with the light to make the final shape was unclear.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

8:53 what if the witness didn’t know but the gardener was with it always sharing to grow us, the final shape is none and always changing. The guardians protect the shapes and the winnower just wants unending change but the best catalysts are the opposites.

[@WhoisPersona]

I think we need to ask ourselves what kind of action or event would bring us into conflict with the Winnower. We know that he is above literally anything and sees any change in the Universe as a simple chess move and I believe that no matter how many times our victories would annoy him that it would not be enough for him to take direct action. But given that it is the nature of the guardians to subvert the laws of reality the Winnower might actually begin to fear that It's agency may come under threat and that is may take direct action to defend itself against us. it is possible that Guardians possess the ability to harm or even kill the Winnower and that may be the reason he finally decides to take action.

[@vV_Viggo]

It’s possible the Witness could have still written Unveiling but did not author the words, if you catch my drift. Perhaps it was a vessel the same way the Ogre was for Oryx.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

Is the veil a split black hole with a white hole attached to the other side? Maybe it would be like going in is the same as coming out but we are changed where on the outside it looked normal like passing down a hallway or going in and out relatively instant but changed. The inside is happening independently but sharing.

[@blarg4699]

I like the confirmation of the winnower and witness being separate characters, but this expansion did not answer enough questions for me. Like WHAT IS THE TRAVELER? Is it the place/dimension where the gardener resides? If so where is the gardener? Why did we not see or hear from her? I know we’re guided by the bird a lot but that is not enough for the big finale to the light and darkness saga. Is the traveler simply a machine that holds massive amounts of light? If so is the veil the same thing but just with darkness? Love the vid, love the gameplay of the expansion but I can’t agree that the narrative team cooked, I personally needed more questions answered after playing this game series for over a decade and bungie telling us “This is it, this is the finale to the entire light and dark saga”

[@iKentine]

13:26 lol

[@BaileyM666]

I feel like, to me anyway, that the traveller and veil are the gardener and winnower, I could be wrong but I feel like it's the "forms" they took after the game was changed and they involved themselves

[@monkysrule]

In the end I think they just needed some form of conclusion and revealing the Winnower could come off as a rug pull to 90% of the players cuz the Witness was built up so much in the forefront and I think they still need time to build up the Gardener and why she’s been absent this entire time.

[@Azakadune]

Lol the bird

[@GM-lx7ji]

So since we know that the witness bringing darkness into the traveler was causing it to change, so what would happen if we or someone else was to bring light into the veil?

[@FelixRaycher]

I'm glad it has been done, but not happy with the way narrative team did it. I expected at least Witch Queen worthy cinematic cliffhanger. To make long story short, I don't have high hopes for the possible D3 or even episodes for various of reasons but if they won't screw up the Winnower as a character as much as Nezarec or Calus (perhaps maybe Witness, depends how you look at all of the three), then I'm surely eating the dish they've cooked out.

[@TheTechMachina]

First the pale heart, next year we go into the veil perhaps????......2025 Frontiers.....I AM READY

[@tacobread3]

4:55 Hard flex 😂

[@KreatorOfDeath1985]

I havent seen that emoji in so long. ;o)

[@cristopheralexander1583]

I wonder what the winnower looks like.

[@Venextron]

I always have a hard time balancing the volume levels I'm sorry.

[@JazzzxD421]

Venex im so stocked for the custody battle between our mom(gardener) and our dad(winnower)

[@jakeciraco5597]

Do we have a video on what the narrative team did wrong with the pyramids? I’m intrigued to hear your thoughts cause they definitely went in a much different direction then I ever expected but I was also a kid when D1 came out and they concept art had my mind racing. I had some crazy theories that were never gonna come to be.

[@Venextron]

They set up a reveal for the race's origins and dropped it last minute. We also never got them as an enemy faction, but the Witness instead. A lot of this was due to D3 being cancelled before SK, and writing decisions.

[@jakeciraco5597]

@@Venextron woah ok that’s interesting. I had no idea they were originally gonna go with another race. I assume it’s race number 5 from that D1 concept art. I’d love to hear more on this, you def should cover it in a future video.

[@isaaccervantes647]

Can you explain your critiques on Nezerac and the pyramids?

[@Venextron]

In time I will. It's a video that I know needs to be made, and yet I know it will be extremely harsh. So it's a matter of finding the right time for it. Long story short Bungie dropped both storylines and it really sucked.

[@ericbright1742]

It makes me wonder: did the Witness *claim* the title of the First Knife, or *was it* the First Knife?

[@deriznohappehquite]

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh. I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold. I am % hero. She has been nameless since our birth, a constant adversary caring for nothing but my ruin, a sword drenched in my blood forever, my greatest and only love. She is the dark one, the enemy and lover, without whom my very existence would be pathetic and vulgar! Our relationship is complex and perhaps eternal. We met once in the garden at the beginning of the world and, unaware of our twin destinies, we matched stares across a dry fountain. And I recall her smiling at me before she devoured the lawn and trees with a translucent blue flame and tore flagstones from the path and hurled them into the sky, screaming my sins. I powder a granite monument in a soundless flash, showering the grass with molten drops of its gold inlay, sending smoking chips of stone skipping into the fog. She splinters an ancient oak with a force that takes my breath and hurls me to the ground. She lea% [leaves?]

[@Jacobk-g7r]

12:05 what is time? Change, so the garden before change was a final shape but also the beginning shape. So something like what the witness wanted.

[@WhyBeUgly]

When the Witness said its not The Winnower and called itself the first knife I literally went "THATS WHAT HE (you) SAID!" and did the DiCaprio point

[@CDcooper3876]

I think the Gardner and Winnower are 2 legit gods in the Destiny universe ( not the faux gods that the guardian has mounted over his fireplace) but I seriously doubt either will ever be a raid boss as they exist in a place above space and time and everything so far and everything yet to come is all just their game . Perhaps the Precursor/ Witness in studying the darkness discovered the reality of the game and in response set out to enact TFS to “turn off the game “ as was alluded to by Immaru during season of the witch . This would put the Witness in a bit of a different light .

[@Jacobk-g7r]

Saying the winnower exists is like saying god exist, yes but not a deity more like everything and some shapes reveal the light and some are revealed in darkness. Everything is real just we see the outlines. What i mean is that the winnower is like the god of lies, it connects itself but flows through the differences. It may not be present in full spectrum but if one person sees the abyss and shows another, the shared link bridging the perspectives is like an encompassing connection to all the parts. One hears, the other sees, another moves, they work together to bring a shape of winnowing so the winnower isn’t a thing, it is like the consciousness between things. We can share our body with the deep and be the knife held. Simple. When put into an ogre it’s like taking an ai and giving it a body. An ai is the crossing of measurements which is organized and sharing to reveal dimensions between. Like a Rubik’s cube. One shape is able to be translated but adding to the range expanding

[@NicPac2]

Hey man! Love your videos. Question: is the Winnower goal to kill everything? I thought his goal was to enforce the natural flow of cause and effect. The belief that because the universe operates on causality then naturally the strongest will conquer the weak as there is only so much universe to go around. This is why the vex always won as they literally could not do anything but seek victory through causality. The Gardner on the hand got bored of this as she knew the ending every time and there put herself in the “game” to break that causality law and allow for impossible things to happen (thereby changing the rules). Just thoughts but I guess I just think that the Winnower is associated with death only so much as it enforces the natural flow of the universe, which the Gardner constantly screws with

[@victorpedrosoceolin3919]

The winnoers goal is to win the game against the gardener that, doesn't matter the circunstances, every final patern of the universe will reach it by the sword logic That being, the philosophy of the winnoer is the one that wins

[@NicPac2]

@@victorpedrosoceolin3919 well yes. It does want to win. But with these gods “how” they win seems to matter. The Gardner appears to believe that: given freedom from causality, the universe will continue to develop/grow/change indefinitely and be just fine. The winnower on the other hand appears to believe that rules are the rules…and they were perfect to begin with as they emerged during the beginning of everything (aka causality). The Gardener has tried to “break” that rule with all its uplifting/gifts but it appears that the winnower still thinks that it really doesn’t matter how much paracausality you dish out, the one rule remains the same…aka the strongest will always overtake the weak…or better put, given cause, effect will happen…even if you try to change it.

[@Venextron]

The Winnower does not want to kill everything, it simply wants the universe to continue on its natural course...which would end with the death of everything.

[@Halofan-ey3ul]

Is there a lore reason why The Witness knows about the flower game? In the twq ending cutscene, it references it as if it somehow were connected to the winnower.

[@Ben-zg8xk]

At that point in time up until light fall it seems they were trying to retcon unveiling to be the creation myth of the precursor species. The witness knew because he made it. Although know that makes no sense since the winnower is real again

[@Venextron]

I'd say the race learned of it through the Veil, and found proof it in the Black Garden.

[@alejandrocarralero2826]

At this point Bungie just said it and if some people don't believe them that's on them.

[@re11ek]

I'm a bit mixed on the story of this expansion. I agree with everything you said and really, really enjoyed the campaign and story, but I find it very underwhelming as the "conclusion to the Light & Dark saga." So much is still unanswered about both paracausal forces and what the the Gardener/Winnower *are*. If they didn't repeatedly call it the "conclusion to the Light & Dark saga" I wouldn't be nearly as dissapointed.

[@Venextron]

I've probably never been more conflicted about a story in my life.

[@lozdbzmario]

We are so back

[@Darth_Derisive]

I'm with you BUT I think people are forgetting the Ascendant Plane. Thats where Oryx was when he went into the Deep. I think the Deep is just the innermost part of the Ascendant plane. As far as the Veil is concerned I don't think it has an "inside". The inside of the Traveler/Pale heart only had a world within it because like we were told it was manifesting our memories. There is no terraforming power within the Veil so I don't think there's a world within it. If anything it may be a portal to the Deep but I don't think the Winnower dwells within per se'. I think the Winnower dwells within the Ascendant plane. Now that we are masters of Light and Dark through Prismatic we now have far more access to that realm. I'm sorry for constantly repeating myself in your comments but I feel really strongly about this. If he doesn't dwell in the Ascendant Plane then why does it even exist? It makes no sense to me.

[@Darth_Derisive]

Wait a sec, if the Veil IS a portal then that completely explains why the Witness needed it to get into the Traveler. Maybe he used the Light as a lodestar for the portal. (Did that gag you like it gagged me when I thought about it? No? Ok. LOL) It also explains why he commissioned the Vex to make a copy and why the Vex thought it would be possible.

[@Venextron]

Don't forget that the portal into the Pale Heart is made of the Veil's energy.

[@silvergrimoire]

My confusion is if the Winnower is in the veil why don’t we see the gardener in the traveler?

[@Venextron]

Me too!

[@TheDevilsFlex]

Be seeing you..

[@Venextron]

If only

[@Metal4ever69]

Don’t tell Reddit this at make them cry

[@84m30]

7:37 yeah but the witness talks to us in the vision through the artifact, AND we also get unveiling through the same thing. So what gives?

[@Venextron]

If Unveiling came from an artifact, and that artifact was used as a communication device by two beings who are both connected to the Veil, then I think it works.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

You should look at the perfect pitch lore.

[@Shapes_Quality_Control]

It is still way too early to tell if the Witness was speaking of a person. That it referred to itself as the “First Knife” seems clear to me that it was speaking in metaphor.

[@jamesallen3006]

I think the bird is the winnower

[@Venextron]

Now that would be a twist.

[@Drizzly0]

Please do a Oryx video

[@BlackOwl-fz2oo]

I don't think the Gardener and Winnower will be characters like the Witness, Oryx etc. They are rules of the universe. They might be able to communicate ideas and influence their surroundings(like gravity, the nuclear forces etc), but I don't think we will meet them face to face.

[@navi0760]

I kinda of don’t want us to fight the winnower. There’s really no point imo.

[@hylianglitchmobber7570]

Why does everyone keep using that concept art to represent the Winnower? That art was one of the original concepts for how Osiris would apear in Destiny 1 long before he was reworked as the character we got in D2

[@Venextron]

I have never seen or heard that. And the D1 concepts I have seen look nothing like that.

[@hylianglitchmobber7570]

@@Venextron several years back a bungie dev did a live stream going over old concept art & scrapped ideas. He all but confirmed that image to be an early idea for Osiris. For some reason a lot of people also believe it was an early draft version of D1 Crow. But either way it's not the Winnower or anything Darkness related

[@jacobboucher777]

I have to disagree. The Veil is not the Winnower. The Witness said that the Winnower found them, but the Witness's race found the Veil. Also, the Traveler didn't flee the Witness, its race fled from it.

[@goldenyak629]

Or _she._

[@CrimsonKamina]

I feel like the Winnower is more of a metaphorical/mythological figure for the witness, either that or it’s their term for the veil. It could also just be a case of the internal conflict within the witness. The Final Shape is the conclusion to the “Light and Dark” saga. So introducing the winnower as a new antagonist would really go against the narrative of light and dark concluding

[@jacobboucher777]

Actually, The Final Shape is the conclusion of the fight, the war of Light and Dark. It was not the end of the light and darkness saga, or less the light and the dark would not exist anymore. No, it was simply the end of the Witness's war, fueled by and through the dark, against the Traveler and its light. Now, I feel like the writers are leaning back to the idea of the game that was played by the Gardener and the Winnower.

[@Gabdube]

Please stop giving humanoid faces to impersonal antagonistic metaphysical forces and paracausal entities. There's only so much cosmic unibrow I can take.

[@germanboi3956]

Alright time to nip this in the bud. This is metaphorical NOT literal. The raid ship lore tab DIRECTLY has Ikora say how The Witness’s wrote unveiling and Inspiral as an ATTEMPT to portray itself as a great cosmic truth. Furthermore Ahsa directly tells us the precursors DESIRED a Winnower to shape the garden (the universe). In Inspiral it’s explained that without a “guiding hand” (directly referred to as a Winnower) in the garden, the denizens of the garden must become such a guiding hand. Crucially that “there must always be knives”. The Winnower is most aptly a metaphorical being that the precursors made to justify the creation of the final shape. IE: There should have been something to create order in the universe, in the lack thereof we must become The First Knife that will serve as a tool for the conceptual metaphor and ideology of The Winnower and The Final Shape. Essentially being the knife that will bring salvation. It’s essentially The Witness perceiving itself as some kind of “simple and righteous tool”. The “game” is twofold, both the struggle to survive in a pointless universe and yes referencing the metaphor of the garden. This game of the garden being yet again, this “endless” struggle for survival and purpose created by the metaphor’s infinite games. It’s already been stated multiple times that The Winnower isn’t real, Inspiral stated this, Ahsa stated this, and now the raid lore ship even states that unveiling was simply that, a metaphorical story used by The Witness to instill fear and false truths onto those who read it. The Winnower is a metaphorical being that turned into an ideology. “We are The First Knife, clutched in its hand” means “We are the not some manipulating god, we are a simple tool that seeks out the final shape because that is what is right, we molded ourselves into the tool the (ideological) truth of The Final Shape and The Winnower the universe desired(again in the absence of a guiding hand, the garden will “inevitably fulfill that role”). One last attempt at manipulation. I know this is a lot but this is how it is and has been for a while and The Witness being confirmed to have written Unveiling and doing so to lie about its true nature 100% confirms, along with all the other previous statements, that The Winnower is merely a metaphorical being turned ideological metaphor. The Witness being The First Knife directly deconfirms The Winnower because denizens of the garden would only HAVE to be a knife to create order in the absence of that “guiding hand”. The entire reason for The Witness’s existence is exactly BECAUSE there is no Winnower to provide said meaning and structure.

[@stingspring3168]

But in unveiling, the author writes, “Beings who deserve no thought: Those who peddle the tired gotcha that all life hastens entropy. They are fatuous little nihilists who pretend to prefer no existence to a flawed one. They bore me.” That seems like the winnowed criticizing the witness. The witness is trying to perfect existence. In the campaign they speak on how life is plagued with entropy. The final shape that the witness seeks does not end the existence of others, it merely crystallizes them in a shape it decides. Why would the witness criticize its own philosophy like this if it was the one who wrote unveiling? Edit: at 7:50, Venextron makes the same point I made.

[@giancarlo5945]

Nah, you're totally wrong, why would the witness use metaphors? If the guy hates the gods

[@mirokinnarinen1527]

As I read it, it's more of an Ikoras opinion that the Witness wrote Unveiling. It's not stated fact, but an in-universe characters opinion.

[@germanboi3956]

@@stingspring3168In lore answer? The Witness lies as it did talking to Oryx (explicitly said they were the voice in the recent lore book) and sometimes uses singular pronouns in ORDER to portray itself as a singular cosmic force. Actual explanation? Bungie retconning Seth Dickinson’s work yet again. You can read about how Bungie also mistreated Seth online.

[@dovahkiin2297]

Bud, "It's all just a metaphor!" is just a cope that requires actively ignoring everything we've learned at this point. Take the hint and move on.