This cycle street was a complete disaster

[@Arjay404]

A street redesign that only lasted 3 years is crazy, but at leas the Dutch aren't stubborn enough to keep a bad idea when it clearly isn't working, many other places might choose to just stick with the redesign because of all the cost that was involved in doing it and not wanting to waste that money even if that means the design is bad.

[@Semmy27]

Better half-turned than completely gone astray

[@gospelofchange]

The Dutch are relentless optimizers of urban space. They will dig a canal, change their minds fill it in and then realize that they were wrong only to re-dig the canal.

[@somedutchguy9184]

With tax-payers' money 😁👍🏻

[@stevecarter8810]

I love to think they collectively learned, unlike UK who regard diligence as something for the victim classes

[@PeterJavi]

@@gospelofchange Exactly. When you only watch urban planning channels, you'd believe the Dutch are gods of urban planning, but the reality is that we get it wrong quite often. When we do get it wrong though, we simply change anc change again until we get something that works.

[@test40323]

Oh man, this is an excellent learning experience. Our older, established cities in Canada have these problems when trying to add cycling infrastructures.

[@UzumakiNaruto_]

Its hard to add cycling infrastructure and make our cities more people friendly when our politicians and city planners don't mandate it and force these changes on developers who only care about making money building large homes and/or huge condo buildings for people to invest in. Probably the most maddening thing is seeing brand new communities being built outside of major cities from scratch and seeing them build those neighborhoods in the exact same car centric way as they did in the old suburbs of major cities. These developers have the chance to build something great from the ground up on untouched ground and they still choose to build in the same way as they've done for decades because its easy and it makes them money.

[@williansromansiqueira673]

​@@UzumakiNaruto_ no, its because jobs are always far from were people live, there's not enough job in new neighborhoods and home areas, it's easy to travel 20~40 km in a car than in a bike.

[@hugolafhugolaf]

@@UzumakiNaruto_ It makes them money because cyclists are not profitable employees.

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

In the US people don't learn from the mistakes. Anti bike people constantly use poorly designed examples of bike infrastructure as an argument against building any of it.

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

@@hugolafhugolaf It's unfortunate you actually believe that

[@TheNormalUniverse]

Wow this is a really important story and you captured it so well. It's rare you get such a direct comparison of street design elements - good and bad. Bravo

[@mdhazeldine]

This is great to see. I do feel that this video could have been a bit longer though. As a non-Dutch (British) person, when you say things like "the bikes are still hear, but the square is much better designed", I want to know what it is that they've done that makes it better now? How did they reconfigure things to make it better and why? A deep dive into the design principles that have been put in place would be really helpful/interesting.

[@BicycleDutch]

There is a link to the blog post in the description. There you will even find the design for the square with all the measurements. That is way too detailed for a youtube video.

[@zeus000.00]

@@BicycleDutch That nice, but al little more depth would be nice. Do you know the channel NJB? Much higher information density imho.

[@johnnysecular]

what a quality quality channel! thank you!!!

[@peachezprogramming]

You got me with the title😂

[@walterh2113]

The type of clickbait I'm not mad about

[@annaapple7452]

Based on the title I guessed the street correctly... I remember the cycle street situation from the late nineties and it was a disaster. Part of that was that no-one was used to the idea of cars and bikes having to behave on equal importance. Cars were impatient and bikes unsure, and as a cyclist I felt really unsafe. It was as if you were pushed into a busy car lane and no-one trusted the new rules. Being stuck behind a bus or lorry was not fun. It was a relief when they reverted back to the cramped "normal" situation. Also, this is one of the busiest cycle routes in Utrecht during rush hour and the number of bikes is (was? Don't live there anymore) insane.

[@jlammetje]

The number of bikes is still insane, which is really the main reason a "fietsstraat" works here at all. Without bikes dominating the street, it would become unsafe very quickly I think. But because of all the bikes, the few cars that drive there have no option than to behave as a guest 🙂

[@sebastaroth]

It's the main bike route between the college campus and downtown, I believe.

[@mourlyvold64]

@@jlammetje How does that work out outside more busy hours, like at night?

[@jorismak]

A good part of why it now works is that cars don't _want_ to be there, unless they have to. For a lot of places at the two ends of the street, there are better routes to get there. That achieves the low car count. And thus the 'car as guest' idea works. If the ratio was closer to 1/1 the cars would feel like they own the street , just as in other countries. Give the cars a better alternative , and they disappear. 'Simple'.

[@etbadaboum]

Since pivoting from cars half a century ago, Netherlands had time to experiment a lot in order to find the best solution, this video shows it so well! Very instructive.

[@dammitdan106]

Well done Utrecht!

[@bikequestwithmikewest]

Thanks for sharing! It was great to ride down this street to the Rietveld Schroederhuis earlier this year; and now to learn about its transformation and history of how the Dutch fiestraaten have evolved. I always learn something new watching your videos, thank you!

[@Sacto1654]

It came down to mixing bicycles with other traffic not working at all, given the narrowness of the street. Making it mostly bicycle-only saved a lot of hassles in terms of traffic control

[@eirinym]

The problem I noticed in the Netherlands is that often pedestrian infrastructure is full of obstructions and there isn't much space compared to bike infrastructure. As soon as you walk around something because there's not room to walk, if you walk into the bike infrastructure for even a small amount of time people on bikes will shout at you. It's not a great feeling if you're visiting without a bike.

[@collectioneur]

This is accepted by Dutch people because we are both pedestrians and cyclists. Sometimes one mode is given preference over the other, but this is considered normal.

[@EvilTurtle97]

Shouted at? If you look first if no one is coming then people respect it. There is a ton of tourists that just blindly step on the cycle path without looking behind them if a cyclist is coming, then you get shouted at, you don't do that on car streets either. I have fallen once in the past 4 years of living in Utrecht, even when completely shitfaced I never fall, the time I did was because some tourist randomly stepped onto the cycle path and I had to dodge and ran into a bollard.

[@SirEdwardeight]

@@EvilTurtle97 If there are pedestrians around, slow down, as you ask the drivers to do. Particularly if the walking infrastructure is bad.

[@xaviwarrior1]

Yet with these 'problems', Netherlands is top on cyclelines design. My country must learn so much for a polite and relax urban context like your

[@rebeccaalbrecht771]

At 2: 48 seconds, the two men (University students no doubt) are pushing a trolley of empty cases of Heineken beer bottles into the Albert Heijn supermarket. It will be filled with full cases for the return trip to their student apartments. This is a common sight here in Utrecht.

[@BicycleDutch]

I wondered who would be the first to notice and comment about this. Isn't it great that they can just do that? Who needs a vehicle for something like hauling a trolley full of (empty or full) beer crates!

[@paolagrando5079]

Now I have to rewatch the video 😸

[@nvelsen1975]

@@BicycleDutch *laughs in shopping an even larger quantity of beer in Germany at 60% of the price as a result of having a vehicle* Also did you know that if you load a Daihatsu Cuore up completely, it won't go faster than 90 even pedal-to-metal? 😆

[@martinn.6082]

@@nvelsen1975 You save 40% on beer, but pay 1,000% more on a car?

[@nvelsen1975]

@@martinn.6082 We saved a couple hundred on a carload of beer, booze and snacks. It runs 1 in 17-18 and a liter of petrol cost somewhere € 1,60 back then. Except you always fill up in Germany where fuel's cheaper too. So less than € 18 worth of fuel saved, and it's worth it.

[@RiderOftheNorth1968]

It is all about perspective. Instead of attaching cycle infra on existing car infra Utrecht did almost the opposite. They figured out how to build functional cycle infrastructure, tweeked it a little bit, and invited cars as "guests". Good thinking! 👍

[@XEinstein]

There's nothing special about Utrecht in this case. There are fietsstraten where cars are guests all over the Netherlands

[@RiderOftheNorth1968]

@@XEinstein I know that. What i mean is that they took a non functional concept and turned it on its head. They did the opposite of what they had before.

[@Novusod]

How do you invite cars as guests without the space being overwhelmed with car traffic.

[@XEinstein]

@@Novusod car drivers in the Netherlands are all also cyclists, therefore people in cars mostly behave because they know what it's like on the bike.

[@RudyBleeker]

@@Novusod Besides the answer @XEinstein already gave you, there's another answer in the video: it's about the ratio. Instead of most people hopping into their cars and drive through that street to go somewhere, they choose to take the bike. Hence there's a 4 to 1 ratio of bikes to cars. it's this ratio that's important, many more people choose to ride a bike because it's just more convenient.

[@LazyDaisyDay88]

With such excellent and considered cycling infrastructure, I am baffled why car ownership in NL continues to grow by around 2.2% each year. I understand that sometimes, you just need a car, but the number of all trips made by bike is still below 30%. And almost 10 million cars in such a small country (with such good cycling facilities) is a sad statistic. But thank you as always for sharing - it gives other countries a benchmark to aim for.

[@rutgerb]

I missed my flight because I thought I could take the train to the airport. Next time: I will drive.

[@peterslegers6121]

Bicycles are especially great at short trips and in towns. Most car trips are only a few miles "long". These can easily be replaced by bicycle trips. Above 7 km / 4 miles cars get the upper hand, unless there's great public transport. Electric bikes can reduce car use on the shorter distances. Lots of places don't have public transport and rural villages are losing shops and services. A few years back a study showed that car ownership grew mostly by families getting multiple cars.

[@TheAnoniemo]

If I would drive to work it would take me around 30min (40 with traffic). Now I take the bike->train->bike to work and the total trip is around 1h15. The only reason I don't get a car is because the exercise is good and I can work from home a couple days a week. My GF needs a car because there is no sane way to get to her work using public transport, even though both destinations are in cities.

[@jochemmm]

I live in Amsterdam, yet take the car to work as it takes me 30 minutes vs 60 with public transport. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for people living outside cities, especially given the reduced public transport services in those areas.

[@atropatene3596]

Not everywhere is as good as utrecht. From our house to my husbands job, it is 1 hour by bike, 1 hour and 20 minutes by public transport and 20 minutes by car. His parents live a few villages over. Getting there by public transport would mean taking a bus to the nearby city, and then a bus to their village 1 hour and 45 minutes total. It takes 35 minutes by car. We have young children so we will save whatever time we can. I wish the public transport was better here so we could get rid of the car altogether. On the plus side, my job is a 30 minite bike ride vs 20 minute drive and the kids go to a school that is a 5 minute walk. So we only need 1 car.

[@eggy6857]

Red asphalt just soothes my soul.

[@04smallmj]

I feel like it adds a lot of colour too - some countries have very grey looking streets

[@PhouFoo]

It saddens me to see old videos from dutch towns with heavy traffic, because they look exactly like today's streets in Germany. The tragedy is that here we will have to wait for antoher 30 years for the same progress to happen...

[@manmanman2000]

This looks so nice. Well done Utrecht, well done!

[@victorvance6279]

To think this street that I cycle on from time to time has this much infrastructural history is pretty cool because you never really think about it during your commute.

[@hond654]

Refreshing to see a street without parking cars using up space.

[@ScramJett]

It is seriously so much quieter! The U.S. has a looooooooong way to go yet.

[@Novusod]

It is not feasible to do this in America, our cities are built differently in terms of zoning. A lot of inner city neighborhoods are basically food deserts so people still need a car to get groceries.

[@RudyBleeker]

@@Novusod The problem in America is indeed zoning,. Do away with those ridiculous zoning laws and encourage shops, cafes and smaller shopping malls in (sub)urban areas. That makes them much more livable because suddenly you can bike or even walk to get groceries or go out. These things are most definitely feasible in America, you just have to want it badly enough.

[@iamTheSnark]

@@Novusod Amsterdam went from "we should build massive car centric infrastructure" (based on what city planners saw in the US) to "Well, I guess we have now killed enough children." Amsterdam has been evolving since, and still does. It's not an overnight thing.

[@nvelsen1975]

@@RudyBleeker There's a reason those are separated from eachother. Look at Almere-Haven where they mixed it: it was a disaster.

[@iamTheSnark]

@@nvelsen1975 You mean having a bakery on the corner is a bad thing?

[@londonsparrow9531]

It looks great. I'll love more of these in London.

[@MarcelVolker]

Isn't it frustrating to have to hear the nonsense about 15-minute cities here in the UK? You want to shake those people and make them watch videos like this and shout at them "does this look like hell to you!?"

[@thepeli1925]

Waw! I love dutch's thinking, i envy you so much. Now, one more step for those cars to not be alow to transit and it'll be absolututely perfect

[@pappy9473]

Thank for showing how some people face up to issues and provide solutions, even if it means admitting a previous attempt was a failure. If you can include some statistics demonstrating the economic benefits of redesigning roads, it might convince business owner to accept change. Thank you again.

[@jfv65]

I think it also helped that the overall attitude towards cars/trucks in inner cities has changed a lot since the 1990's. Traffic rules have changed accordingly. Cars and trucks are no longer the dominant road users like they once were. The law has changed as well: if a car or truck gets involved in an accident with a pedestrian or bicyclist the car- or truck driver is automatically(!) half liable for the damages, regardless of which party was legally at fault. This was done to protect the weakest roadusers in traffic. IMO this is also why these bicycle streets function correctly.

[@04smallmj]

I seriously doubt that Strict Liability makes any significant impact to people's behaviour - the infrastructure is the most important factor. Strict Liability exists here in the UK and many other countries for rear-end collisions but it doesn't stop people tailgating and many other traffic laws are broken regularly.

[@frogandspanner]

2:35 This is the most important observation. Once a particular form of transport prevails the other forms become, by default, guests. It is creating that 'flip' from one majority to another that is difficult, and it might be that the three year 'failure' was what was necessary to cause that change, to be reinforced by subsequent change to the infrastructure. Roads are a process, not a fixed entity.

[@Random.ChanneI]

The Weteringschans is also so nice to bike on. I'm really liking these bike priority streets.

[@jbrnds]

2:46 one observation… this is a delivery by students (studenthouse) of their empty beercases to collect “statiegeld” (deposit). And not delivery of fresh beer from the truck parked somewhere else.

[@Bob-qy9lw]

Vreselijke straat, het staat altijd vol met geparkeerde auto’s. Als voetganger heb je geen plaats! Laten ze die geparkeerde auto’s er eindelijk eens uitgooien en doorgaand autoverkeer afsluiten. Voor een stad voor fietsen en wandelen is dit echt een aanfluiting.

[@GoodStreeets]

The design around the parking spaces is really interesting and at first counter intuitive. Designing them as pedestrian space which can be "invaded" by cars that wish to park seems like madness but when I think about the alternative - a piece of ugly roadway which must be navigated by pedestrians - it makes a lot more sense. Great video, lovely street!

[@Langevloei-NL]

Our first baby steps, well-preserved. Nice to see how we made mistakes. As long as you can let go, and learn, and do better. The car is a guest. This is the great new thing. The logical result is that every car owner also rides on a bike regularly or walks around as a pedestrian, so understands how it is to be on the bike or walking around as well as being in a car. Car free Amsterdam. This is a natural development.

[@midasghijsels]

Hoi BicycleDutch, goed werk doe je! Ik geniet ervan! Ik hoop dat er over een jaar ook zo'n video gemaakt kan worden over het fietspad/stoep/uitgang parkeergarage aan de phoenixstraat/kruispunt binnenwatersloot in Delft. Dat is een groot fiasco.

[@esiebring7436]

Another situation that begs coverage is the circuit at the old Haarlemmermeerstation in Amsterdam (Amstelveenseweg / Havenstraat etc). It's definitely a challenge to design that properly. It's a main artery into the city with a lot of cars, trams and cyclists passing through it. Someone converted the old prison that's located next to it into a British school (and those kids can't cycle and their mums only drive SUVs, so big queues every morning). And the main problem (evil grin): the local stadsdeel-political party doesn't know how to cycle either, so they are missing relevant knowledge in designing it properly. A few years ago (during COVID) they redesigned it to reduce traffic jams. The solution was: remove the classic roundabout so that cycles now have to give way to cars. It doesn't help, because there are just too many cyclists and there is always someone who'll get off his bicycle and cross the car lanes at the zebra next to the bicycle crossing. though the cars themselves already cause sufficient jams at rush hour; no cycles needed.

[@16dutch16]

The Kruisstraat fietsstraat in Eindhoven is still horrible. In the last 6 years I think there has been at least 3 reworks to try and improve it, but fundamentally still has too much traffic, too much parking and drivers that drive too fast/recklessly. What happens when you appease shop owners by promising no reduction in parking

[@Shariukasz]

A job of an engineer is not to find complicated solutions, it is to find simple solutions by using complicated methods.

[@960guy]

Ah, the memories of cycling from Nachtegaalstraat to De Uithof daily. Feeling nostalgic right now, although the new layout seems to be much better than the old one.

[@martienvanderhof6696]

I lived in the first parallel street behind the supermarket in the 1980’s. Traffic was a lot messier back them.

[@kalle911]

Everywhere else is more like "welp we'll try again in X years so this is what you're getting until then", where X stands for years taken for the road to deteriorate sufficiently to warrant a reconstruction.

[@lovelance__5892]

A funny case of over-cycling is that a street near Scheveningen where the fietser is the guest

[@yoepvh9250]

I used to do my shopping by bicycle at the supermarket there. To me, the only odd thing back then was the intersection with the Oudwijkerdwarsstraat, which had traffic lights that were basically always on idle, because traffic from the crossing roads was quite low. When I recently crossed the Burgermeester Reigerstraat, I saw that they were still there, I wonder why they kept those. As for the rest, it feels like a confirmation of what already was. The whole row of streets towards the centre from that point are practically cycling streets.

[@nvelsen1975]

They wanted to force buses through that street, an idiotic idea, but hey, Groenlinks....

[@JakobHill]

This story highlights a major problem I see, which I think will prevent cycle streets from becoming a thing here in North America. The popularity of cycling in the Netherlands and their cycling infrastructure is really a "chicken-and-egg" thing. Cycling in the Netherlands really took off in the 20s and 30s, just as the car was taking off in the United States. During WW2, hundreds of thousands of Dutch had their bicycles confiscated by the Nazis to support the war effort, which turned bicycles into an object of national pride. Cars were a rare sight until the Marshall Plan of the 50s, yet they never truly caught on BECAUSE of the real and perceived danger they posed to bicycles (the high cost of oil in Europe had an impact as well). In North America, it's the other way around. Cars have been a common sight for nearly a century, and since the 1950s virtually every working household has been able to afford one, thanks to low fuel costs and the transfer of public subsidies from public transportation to roads and highways. When an American driver sees something like this cycle street, they feel threatened because it goes against the status quo. In NYC, the vast majority of business owners claimed bike lanes hurt their business, even when they were presented with evidence proving the opposite. When you've spent a large chunk of your life driving across town to work, cycling or taking transit feels weird and unsafe. There's also a lot of negativity bias at play here. Most Americans wouldn't notice how easy it was to walk or bike to a restaurant or boutique on this street - but they would throw a tantrum about how hard it was to find parking. There's been a lot of good work being done (at least here in Canada) to provide protected spaces for cyclists, and I absolutely support these from a public safety and environmental standpoint. However, it is hard for me to justify the fiscal impact of these sort of roads when I know full well that the majority of North Americans will never even try to make them work.

[@kempo_95]

The car also started to become dominant in the Netherlands in the 50's and 60's, but was quickly met by protests from people that were against it. Perhaps the US can look better in 50 years time. Culture changes take a long time.

[@brainstorrming]

I dream that here in Russia, even in the middle zone and north of the Urals, architects will create the same convenient lanes in the city for driving regardless of the time of year. Even in winter. And after the snowfalls. I hope this will be done soon. It’s a pity that when raising a child here in Russia, many ordinary people buy him a pedal car made of plastic as a toy for his first ride. Fortunately, this is not everywhere and not all. I remember my first years. When I was 4 years old I rode a bicycle with my dad. Because the conditions were created for this. The fact is that in 1967-1968 I lived in the steppe on a geological exploration team in Kazakhstan, where there is a lot of snow in winter. And also around the geological exploration party there was not even an asphalt road, and there were no poles with lanterns, since in the steppe there is no sidewalk or public transport. And also around the geological exploration party there was not even an asphalt road, and there were no poles with lanterns, since in the steppe there is no sidewalk or public transport. And also around the geological exploration party there was not even an asphalt road, and there were no poles with lanterns, since there is neither a sidewalk nor public transport in the steppe. That's why I'm used to only riding a bike. Although I was in Utrecht only via the Internet.😀👍

[@timpauwels3734]

They did something similar to the failed cycle street with the Emma laan in Den Burg, Texel. They removed the separate cycle paths, put a grass median in the middle of the road to create 2 lanes 1 vehicle wide and designated it a cycle street with 30 km/h speed limit. The street has no houses along it at that section, just trees. It caused a lot of stress for cyclists because they felt “trapped” by the raised medians, with a growing column of awkward car traffic building up behind them. In the end they had to demolish the newly built street after 2 years and reintroduced separate cycle paths and removed the median. This project was supposed to go together with the introduction of a roundabout to the dangerous Emma laan-Beatrix laan-Elemert curves junction where a lot of children used a crossing point from the poorly visible inside of the curve. The roundabout was a succes. Google maps still shows the new build “bad” version of the Emma laan.

[@mikeprusky603]

what is an " underground container " ? looks like a trash bin?

[@esiebring7436]

It is. With a vast container under the ground.

[@BicycleDutch]

Waste in one and recycling of glass, paper and plastic respectively in the others.

[@mourlyvold64]

The underground part is like a hundred time larger that the bin itself.

[@mdruiter]

What happened to the buses?

[@molybdane7240]

I'm quite certain that the 1996 layout originates from traffic guidelines that mix car and bicycle traffic, assuming that car traffic is calmed by having to share a road with a preponderance of bicycles. For a cyclist, it actually feels quite unsafe, with cars behind you 'pushing' you on. I consider this notion a step back in a continuing series of policies that made cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands better.

[@HamTech87]

Where did the buses go?

[@PlutofromBelow]

Trip down memory lane. Specially the start of the street was baf. The cycling path from the Nachtegaalstraat merged into the lane there, with those raisers. The right of way situation was unclear. Impatient drivers and cyclist that didn't look over their shoulders. I remember once seeing a bus drive over a kid. The kid was just shaken, but the bike was totalled.

[@dafinition]

I'm curious as to how bus stops are handled in this street. There's a "bicycle street" (german standards) in my vicinity, with a bus stop in it. It's hard to see if there are oncoming cars or bicycles when behind a bus, so the best option is to wait behind the bus. And it just does not feel safe to pass a large motor vehicle that might swerve to the left at any moment.

[@jlammetje]

You can see on google street view what a bus stop looks like on this street: www.google.com/maps/@52.0894278,5.1359742,3a,75y,103.67h,87.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHG7xNKX141moRASRMdiOAg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu Basically, the bus just stops directly on the street. Cars that happen to be behind the bus will have to wait for a bit (or if it's really really really quiet they might go around). Bicycles can easily divert into the other lane to overtake the bus. Since most other traffic are bicycles, the street is wide enough for bicycles to safely overtake the bus while other bicycles come from the other direction.

[@gerrittlighthart]

In practice, the bus will not pull far away from the curb, and will wait for cyclists to be clear of the bus anyway. Oncoming traffic cannot exceed 30 km/h, so it's not practical for them to overtake cyclists in most cases, and the grey median strip provides enough room that cyclists overtaking the bus will have enough room that oncoming traffic is not in direct conflict with them.

[@eacustomerservices]

I like how many think that the Fietsstraat sign is actually a thing. In The Netherlands, the sign fietsstraat doesn’t have a legal status and normal traffic rules should be followed. Technically, most bikes are actually wrong since they are using the whole road, which is not allowed (Because normal traffic rules apply, which state you should be to the right side of the road, max 2 bikes near each other).

[@mourlyvold64]

Which proves sometimes culture can be as effective as law. Are you against infrastructure like this by definition?

[@BicycleDutch]

No, the fact that the sign is not in the law yet does not make this design without any status. In a Fietsstraat it is custom that cyclists use the full width of the street. The design encourages that. The city designed this street and they are the authority here. The authorities wouldn't encourage illegal behaviour. Customs go before rules. That is the Dutch way of doing things. If you would crash into a cyclist as a driver and you would come with the story that they were not following the rules no judge will go along with you.

[@kailahmann1823]

A cycle street with 4000 cars still working is probably the most impressive - however looking at the footage the cars are probably concentrated on a short peak time?

[@kempo_95]

4000 cars per day, is still over 5 cars a minute generally speaking. 4000/12 hours/60 mins. Very few cars at night obviously.

[@janesda]

What is the ratio of bikes to cars when it's wet and windy?

[@MarcelVolker]

Almost the same. It's what rain ponchos and umbrellas are for.

[@mourlyvold64]

Not much different. Wet and Windy is our middle name.

[@andrebartels1690]

I wish for Dutch counsellors to tell my city officials how to build our traffic infrastructure. Pretty pretty please 🙏

[@fermitupoupon1754]

I'm pretty sure the CROW guidebook is available online.

[@travisfinucane]

Where are all the buses and trucks in the "after" street?

[@TheCountess666]

Not a problem because without the center divide they can overtake slow bike if need be. And there are now designated loading and unloading zones for trucks.

[@Pfooh]

It would be nice to show how this street functions at quieter times. From my experience, bike streets are nice when there's enough traffic. They don't help much (the ratio of cyclists to cars would be just the same and give almost the same results if the street was just a normal 30 km/h street with no cycle infrastructure at all), but they look nice. But at night, they are often horrible, especially on places where there's not enough room for cars to overtake. On a very quiet street, it's very uncomfortable for a cyclist to get squeezed of the road by a speeding car or taxi, often honking. They don't behave like guests at those times, and with the protection of a dedicated cycle path removed, i actually avoid them and rather take a detour. I feel this issue is often overlooked.

[@MetDaan2912]

From personal experience, this is not the case at all.

[@Pfooh]

@@MetDaan2912 My experience is mostly based on the cycle streets on Amsterdam, most notably Weteringschans, but I've had the same experiences elsewhere as well. This one looks quite wide, which might help, that's why I'm asking. But too often, cycle streets aren't cycle infrastructure at all,, but actually just a lazy 'solution' by making the asphalt red and claiming success.

[@jochemmm]

From personal experience, I concur with OP. Cycle streets feel dangerous when you are cycling alone, as cars will overtake you while the road is not really designed to do so.

[@deciMae]

Most of the video here is taken during the somewhat quieter hours, I think. During the day, but at like 2-4 or 10-11. That's one of the reasons why this street works as a cycling street now, there's a lot of bicycle traffic. There's always cyclists on the street during the day.

[@Pfooh]

@@deciMae When there's a lot of bikes, you don't need a bicycle street. There's plenty of examples of 'normal' 30km/h streets with 10 times as many bikes as cars, and they work just the same. When I mean quiet times, I mean quiet times. Like in the middle of the night. This street is quite wide, so I don't expect much problems with cars overtaking cyclists here (except maybe when two cars meet from opposite sides). Quite a few other cycling streets leave cars no option but to wait behind cyclists, or just squeeze them off.

[@NickAskew]

I find it funny that the Dutch society uses the expression "Auto te gast" to describe the cars on a bike road. What I mean is that either it is a misnomer or Dutch people treat guests really badly 🙂. When I have a guest in my house they are treated like royalty and we do everything we can to make them feel welcome, my guess is that this is not the case for cars using what is essentially a bike road, they will be expected to carefully avoid all those hosts cycling around them. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a bad idea, I just think the name is not well thought out. 🙂

[@BicycleDutch]

Interesting. In the Netherlands it’s the guest who has to hold back and abide by the rules of the host. The host sets the rules and you have to respect those as you are after all only a guest in their house. Clearly a cultural difference.

[@NickAskew]

@@BicycleDutch I kind of understand what you mean, I guess it's just a different perspective. For example I'd never simply walk into the kitchen of a house I was invited into and help myself to a cookie from a jar unless my host had specifically told me I could do that. However a decent host would make sure the cookie jar was in the living room and I would not need to go to the kitchen to find it. So I think culturally we are not that different, it's just I focussed on the job of the host to provide for the guest and the people who designed the roads focussed on the duty of the guest to abide by rules of the house. 🙂 For full disclosure, I have been living in the Netherlands for 30 years and my experience of being a guest has been very much similar to being a guest in the UK. But perhaps those hosts over the years cannot believe how rude I am and never said anything 🙂.

[@cfkusnier1]

I live in BsAs Argentine. The same problem.

[@UhuStick]

I wish we have streets like this in germany. Utrecht has such a better cityscape with all the green and the bikes. The dutch cityplanners and citydesigners are much smarter than the germans.

[@SuperToneTV]

What is now a disaster is Voorstraat. So many accidents happen on this street.

[@marccarter1350]

The first design is the rubbish we have in the UK. It's called a half heart attempt!

[@mgsee]

How were motorist and shop owners persuaded to support the scheme?

[@mourlyvold64]

Shop owners in another street in Utrecht actually pleaded with the city's council to remove vehicular parking and make their street more bicycle- and especially pedestrian-friendly, when they appeared to be overlooked for such measures. Most anywhere these changes are implemented local businesses see a rise in revenue. By and large Dutch motorists (most of whom are cyclists on other days) embrace the developments of cycleable and walkable streetscapes, even if occasionally taken to such 'extremes' as in these cycling streets. Overall they work in their benefit too: increased cycling results in less cars for them to compete with, separated cyle paths reduce points of conflict between different modes of traffic. This was mirrored in several drivers' satisfaction surveys over the years in which the Netherlands scores pretty high in general, on top in some. The higher quality of urban settlements promoted by lower air- and sound pollution and increased traffic safety is seen as a 'common good', which has played a significant role in Dutch culture throughout the ages. As such the more liveable cities that resulted from these ongoing developments are much appreciated by most. In fact these cities are increasingly popular, causing ever higher housing prices. So much so, that Dutch governement imposed quota for social housing to ensure common folk can still afford to live in their places of birth.

[@judebrown4103]

It's amazing how prepared to learn from mistakes are the Dutch people. Such a shame our government across the pond has not the same humility....🤔

[@jmi5969]

What I strongly dislike about this street and the cycle tracks in my city is that the soft, less painful asphalt is for cyclists and/or vehicles only, and the pedestrians "enjoy" the excruciatingly painful tile. I can walk almost indefinitely (albeit slowly) on sand or grass, but on asphalt its' hundreds of meters, and on tile it's short streaks, lamppost to lamppost, followed by a long recovery. Which is why I always carefully plan the route to exclude the tile, but this isn't always possible.

[@gerrittlighthart]

For those with serious mobility issues that make concrete sidewalks "excruciatingly painful", the bike infrastructure provides a fantastic opportunity to use motorized wheelchairs, bike wheelchairs, or mobility scooters. I hope that most people who are unable to tolerate walking on concrete paving (you included) are able to access alternative modes of movement that are less debilitating than what you're describing.

[@jmi5969]

@@gerrittlighthart I'm not there in the wheelchair land yet, but certainly beyond the scooter territory (very little normal sensitivity left in the feet, and almost none when walking pain sets in). In my country retreat I sometimes borrow a pony carriage and this is probably the best mobility aid ever... if the pony is in a good mood... but it has no place in the city.

[@herrowitsmeme6623]

they're talking about a mobility scooter, which has 4 wheels on the ground. Not a normal one :D@@jmi5969

[@koekum]

I found it really horrible in the past. The speed throughout the street was dictated by the slowest cyclist with a car stuck behind it and no space to overtake. Haven't experienced the new situation yet.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

oh man, they love their bikes, and why not.

[@StreetfilmsCommunity]

This is amazing. Wow. Sometimes even pretty damn good is better than NYC. LOL!

[@slowcyclist4324]

The street is a disaster? Heck, the name itself is already a tragedy, with reading that name causing a mild stroke each and every time someone has to read it out loud.

[@Pan472]

Hello! I was wondering if you've been in Greece and you've tried bicycling here. You being Dutch, aka the country which has mastered cycling routes and infrastructure, would offer a valuable insight as to how Greek bicycling infrastructure is. Personally speaking, the only cities above 20k people with good cycling infrastructure are the cities of Thessaly. Athens is chaotic, with the exception of a few suburbs. Have you been in Greece?

[@BicycleDutch]

I have never been to Greece and as I do not tolerate temperatures above 20C well, I don't expect to go there anytime soon.

[@Pan472]

@@BicycleDutch Well, you can easily go in the winter, when temperatures are well below 20°C. In the cities of Thessaly that I mentioned, temperatures already have fallen to something marginally higher than 20°C. Soon, they'll fall to half of that. For Athens, you'll have to wait until November and anything after until April.

[@davecooper3238]

So many people riding without helmets. Even kids without helmets.

[@Manlop26]

Muchas gracias

[@GeraldWeinand]

Are cars mostly banned? I.e., only allowed by permit? Or is it that there are so many bicycle riders that driving a car there is a pain in the ass and so avoided? And how long is this bicycle street? Are there car crossing streets?

[@fermitupoupon1754]

Generally speaking, no cars are not banned or restricted access with permits. Usually there is a road that primarily caters to motorised traffic just 1 block over running roughly parallel. The Fietsstraat is then made into a 30km/h zone and measures are taken to discourage through traffic. For example in my home town there are a number of major bicycling routes that run parallel to major arterial roads through the city. So the F100 basically shadows the route that the S100 takes, but instead it's a "bicycle highway route" instead of a city route. The parts where the F100 uses existing residential streets will see those streets turned into fietsstraten, but they're still residential streets. So where the F100 is basically all 30km/h roads and bicycle paths, the S100 is a 4 lane 50km/h road for through traffic with all the bells and whistles. It's got bus lanes, traffic lights with a green-wave system and dynamic speed signalling, and very much restricted access to bicyclists and pedestrians. Logically cars that need to take that route are going to stay on the S100 and bicyclists will be on the F100, safely separated by at least a block of houses. It's basically the same for every successful fietsstraat. There's always a road nearby that goes the same route.

[@derekjolly3680]

I was thinking about this this morning walking my dog early. The trade off is that you either can have really nice street improvements for bicycling in large cities or at least cities in densely populated countries, or you can have smaller towns and cities with less traffic, less need for bike infrastructure, and have very little of it. But generally you can't have it both ways. I think we can use more of it where I live, but the city planners do not see the same need and don't give it to us. Of course it always helps if more people are on bikes.

[@markuserikssen]

Great to see some examples of failures that got improved over time. I wonder if they dare to remove car traffic there in the future...

[@xFD2x]

You might remove the cars WHEN they present a problem, AND it is the right solution. Removing car traffic just because it is fancy, woke or modern doesn't seem right.

[@mourlyvold64]

I don't think it has anything to do with 'daring to' really. You'll have to come up with a pretty darn viable alternative before you remove *all* cars from the equation. Realistically I don't think I'll see the day.

[@StopThePsycle]

The ratio of 17,000 bikes to just 4,000 cars is astonishing. You say in the blog post that drivers struggled to accept being held up by bicycles back in '97, do you think that there's a certain 'critical mass' of cyclists needed for infrastructure like this to be accepted by the public (and car drivers in particular)? Here in the UK something like this, if it ever got out of the planning stage, would probably have a lifespan counted in hours before being ripped up.

[@kempo_95]

It's mostly a culture switch. If you drive through a city center, you have to accept that your speed will be low, will have to park far away and then walk to your destination. Otherwise, you're gonna need to work or live somewhere else.

[@PeterSdrolias]

The 'worst' Dutch designs are still 100xs better than the best designs in North America.

[@NottsCycleInstructor]

With such a video title, you will attract more Car-soles of course

[@ellmatic]

Now do Amsterdamsestraatweg 😭

[@BicycleDutch]

That will street will be done soon. But in the current plans it will keep the cycle ways. Just wider than before.

[@mourlyvold64]

@@dimrrider9133 Breda uit dan, hè? Richting Tilburg, zeg maar. 😎

[@bikdav]

I don’t know of anything like this in USA.

[@thaicycle5249]

Love it! UK bicycle hating driver's heads would explode if they drove down that road 😂😂

[@pauldow1648]

I like Netherlands

[@WolfgangMahringer]

Has anybode noticed that NONE of the cyclists shown here wears a bike helmet? I love it!

[@przemys4466]

This is already (rapidly) changing thanks to ANWB 🙂

[@iamTheSnark]

@@przemys4466 I will not live to see mandatory helmet usage in the Netherlands. Not going to happen.

[@przemys4466]

@@iamTheSnark Yeah, hopefully. But as the attitudes towards helmets have been changing, the Fietsersbond has recently polled both their members as well as outside folks about helmet policies. While the majority is still against the mandatory helmet, they are largely in favour of strongly advising helmets towards the elderly and children. As a result, especially amongst the former, helmets have become now commonplace, which is a stark difference from just a few years back.

[@mourlyvold64]

O, we wear them. In the shower, in case we slip. Tricky business, bathing.

[@liamtahaney713]

Quite a shame that the solution still needs to playcate drivers. Assuming a pretty high occupancy of 1.5 passengers per car, thats still well more than half the number of cyclists. Also, i see in some clips overtaking of cyclists. I was under the assumption thar was not allowed in the fietsstraat

[@TheCountess666]

Overtaking of bikes is allowed in general, but at a appropriate pace, and only if there is room to do so. Some fietsstraaten have signs that prohibit cars from overtaking bikes.

[@alextaxi2593]

In these dutch mixed cycke streets Overtaking cyclists is now becoming irrelevant as most electric assisted bikes seem to travel faster than the cars and overtake the car on inside and outside simultaneously

[@xjdisuehd]

The way the first nouns were taken in the first sentence, it seems the Dutch needed plenty of cough drops.

[@09conrado]

That's mainly because of Mark's pronunciation of the R, rolling in the back of the mouth, combined with a Northern G. Southern G's are softer, as are different pronunciations of the R. Nevertheless we have no trouble understanding each other.

[@haenzelv6287]

would love to hear you speaking dutch

[@sdaiwepm]

I'd like to better understand the essence of what changed. And sadly ... I doubt the redesign, requiring cars to drive very slowly and patiently behind a flock of un-helmeted bicyclists, would work with American drivers.

[@collectioneur]

Interesting how the helmet thing is such a problem in the US. My Dutch family and I once rode our bikes without helmets in Santa Fe, NM, after convincing the rental place that we would probably survive being Dutch and cars would drive around us as if we were radioactive...

[@sdaiwepm]

@@collectioneur You were lucky. A Dutch friend explained to me that Dutch car drivers are careful because they also all ride bicycles. The same is not true of US drivers.

[@888ssss]

das ist gud

[@kaspershaupt]

i think it as in a Not Just bikes video where he showed a bicycle intersection that was green from all sides and how it worked because of the low speed. this looks the same open space at reduced speed with basic rules. most humans can manage that safely

[@theimmux3034]

tom scott thumbnail

[@Cc-lp2xi]

Travel to NL every year. Not shocked at all by the urban planning redesigns. Dutch engineering is driven by common sense not greed. Cambridge in England, where we live, has no clue how to segment bicycling to make it safer and viable and no clue how to do what Amsterdam has done: bring in efficient, clean, FAST, trams that don't compete or get stuck in traffic with cars. Amsterdam has joined up public transport, and government funded as it should be. Cambridge will routinely have bus lines cancel routes leaving students and workers stranded forced to use a car to get into the city- even if you live 5 minutes outside Cambridge. There are poor to nil cycle routs to let those who are stranded from lack of buses use bikes either. Why can these routes suddenly be scrapped? Cause they're privately owned! They are operating based on profit not the greater good- much like Conservative government that has been given power to destroy the UK for far, far too long. If we were still in the EU we mightve been able to share your engineering knowledge- but then again, even when we were private bus owned companies and car only streets with poor infrastructure still existed. Proves one thing the Brexiteers got very wrong: the EU never dictated rules the UK had to follow- if this had been true we'd have Amsterdam level engineering!

[@Kafj302]

I am like number 135

[@sanapadsense1999]

Comme quoi avec un peu de volonté politique tout est possible.

[@iamTheSnark]

Parfois malgré la volonté politique. Vas te faire voir - et au travail! Et que ça saute!

[@sanapadsense1999]

@@iamTheSnark oui :/

[@chriswatson2407]

I see far too many cars

[@mourlyvold64]

Behave yourself, they are our guests.

[@kaz7953]

NJB must be happy.

[@jamesecroucher]

So much ugly graffiti 😢

[@gerrittlighthart]

Five small, inoffensive tags? I had to rewatch the video carefully to even register they were there. Maybe you're being a bit sensitive there, man.

[@this-is-bioman]

One must keep in mind that this is possible only thanks to the climate change and cozy weather thoroughout the entire year! If there were still winters lasting for at least 6 to 7 months with lots of snow you can forget you "precious" bike. So, appreciate the climate change and if you believe in the CO2 religion keep the CO2 levels high so that we can enjoy such streets!

[@haenzelv6287]

You obviously need more 02...you're talking BS.

[@gerrittlighthart]

What an unhinged comment. Take a look at how Finland manages to keep its bike infrastructure clear of snow during long, snowy winters.

[@this-is-bioman]

@@gerrittlighthartlol the entire Finland has as many citizens as an average villiage on the mainland. There's nothing to keep clear of snow for their two dozens of bikes.

[@mourlyvold64]

@@this-is-bioman I understand the allure of being a contrarian, I do. But if you don't want to look like a fool while at it, try and inform yourself before you speak.

[@paulwilliams73]

they are doing the same cycle nonsense here with no where the number of cycles ANYWHERE

[@Wielie0305]

When you build it, people will use it. 40 years ago we also got stuck in our metal boxes during the day… Luckily someone started somewhere to build something… Call it progress…

[@mourlyvold64]

Thank you for your well argued contribution.

[@Kackpuh]

As all bicycle streets are.

[@TheCountess666]

Ha, he got you with the title, and you didn't watch.

[@Kackpuh]

@@TheCountess666 I watched it but didn't care, because it's the truth.

[@RextheRebel]

@@TheCountess666 I can't tell the difference between this bicycle friendly layout and any other I've seen..

[@TheCountess666]

@@RextheRebel The new or the old 'bike friendly' layout ? Seems you got your eye's closed if you couldn't tell the difference between those two.

[@TheCountess666]

@@Kackpuh So... he got you with the title.

[@RextheRebel]

Cars and bikes should not be sharing space. And how does someone carry groceries on a bike? Cars are superior.

[@haenzelv6287]

velotarier.be/assets/files/IMG_0172groot.jpg

[@moreplease998]

They're also noisy, create pollution and take up way too much space. City centres should be designed around enabling transport that does not involve cars. Outside of city/town centres? Cars are fine. It's just where everything winds up getting clogged up with these noisy and dirty metal boxes on wheels that annoy everyone that we really should just do it differently

[@stormer7502]

a basket..? shorter distances which easily accommodate more frequent trips to the store? if you really need, you can even get a cargo bike. Cars are "superior" if you assume ideal conditions. This is clearly not some open road in the middle of nowhere, it's a dense urban environment. The potential benefits you directly gain from driving in such a place are small, and more broadly, you gain so much from living somewhere which doesn't hollow out its cities for cars, like the netherlands.

[@se-kmg355]

You can buy a brand new cargo bike for less of what a car will cost you in a year.

[@HarryLovesRuth]

Paniers. (Those bags you see over the back wheels of bikes.) I regularly buy a week's worth of American sized groceries for a family of three via bicycle. (Four gallons of milk!) We do a big warehouse store run once a month by car for the giant package of toilet paper and multi packs of frozen pizza, but that's more of an infrastructure problem. If I could get there by bike, I'd use the kid trailer.

[@hondaryder3779]

Stelletje amateurs

[@iamTheSnark]

Ach, jij bent een amateur commentaar-schrijver. Zo hebben we allemaal wat.

[@driewiel]

Yes cars are guest. But they only get one cookie because we are Dutch.