BIG Ming Watch Problem !?!

Here we talk about the Ming x Massena Lab watch and the movement that runs it. Is it an issue or is this just the architecture? We can look to history for some insight on this!
Pictures and info credits to:
Mazawell on Instagram
Horomariobro on Instagram
Arab Watch Guide on Instagram
-John P
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[@matthiaskrause1155]

The Sellita SW330 is a GMT movement with a jumping GMT hand. A GMT hand takes 24 hours to complete one turn. To make it an hour hand, the gear transmission ratio has to be changed so that it completes the turn in 12 hours. That means the GMT hand must run twice as fast as it originally does. - I guess hat that means that the original slack of the GMT hand is also doubled, multiplied by two. That would mean: Not only has the hour hand now the slack of the GMT hand - the hour hand now has TWICE the slack of the GMT hand.

[@JohnPWatches]

Well put! Thanks Matthias!

[@CarlosGomez-mp6ve]

I don't know how many positions the steam has, it looks to me they wanted to do "a la" omega to set the summer time adjust, or as a travel watch. If they use 3 positions, it could be clever that in the gmt position is to set the hour and back or forth, but if they use the 3rd position and the now the hour hand can be set regularly, it will be very decent move from them.

[@koolpep]

Ok, I have a Grand Seiko GMT with jumping hours, a Panerai with jumping hours, a Tudor GMT with jumping hours and all of them align properly. So I guess it was a poor design choice by Ming….

[@SoCalWatchReviews]

John is one of the coolest and most well informed watch guys on KZbin! Another great video my man!

[@JohnPWatches]

Thank you!!!

[@johnboud2071]

Great video John. I always appreciate it when you talk about wider industry issues as opposed to just watch "reviews", new releases, etc... As a Ming watch owner, I don't think it was a good idea for them to initially blame this on shipping. There's clearly a problem with the manufacturing of this watch and they should not have tried to wiggle their way out of it by blaming someone else. Secondly, Ming's prices are just completely insane. Their latest release (20.11) is priced at about $16,000 for a time only watch. That's just crazy - even in today's crazy watch market. It's clear to me that they have some growing pains to sort through.

[@springinfialta106]

Thanks for explaining this so clearly.

[@lonewolfemcquade8133]

Great video very interesting 👍 how do you feel about Alpina?

[@PhilMarlowe392]

Really enjoyed how you got in the weeds on this one. Great stuff!

[@MrAleph0000]

Very interesting vid - thank you 👍🏻👍🏼👍🏽👍🏾👍🏿.

[@randyallen2771]

As Hans would say "this is the work of an ill mind". Doesn't Oris offer a ten year warranty?

[@funksfunk]

Are those beige pleated curtains from my grandmother’s old house?

[@BigZebraCom]

John P is back to talk about watches; the curtains are back from the 1950s.

[@TheAmbitiousPeasant]

Was thinking the same thing lol. Also those frames are very distracting and hides his beautiful eyes

[@darrenreed7714]

Think he’s in a photo booth

[@BigZebraCom]

@@TheAmbitiousPeasant Yes, I guess he's kinda purty, isn't he?

[@BigZebraCom]

@@darrenreed7714 The time-travelling photo booth...from the 1950s!

[@TheAmbitiousPeasant]

@@darrenreed7714 😂

[@willayton4950]

Hans needs to come on with yourself and Federico more often, his stories & wisdom make for great viewing. Shame about the MING watch, I think they were trying to be clever with the choice of movement and the execution didn't come off at all. It's not quite the scale of the Tudor GMT or various Panerai issues but its a very online issue affecting a relatively small number of actual watches.

[@juniorgallo8786]

Thumbs up for more Hans. He's such a character!

[@preston5848]

More Hans!

[@rickgreen7393]

When are we going to see the new studio?

[@OldFArt-gx9fh]

Thanks for mentioning Mr Vincent Calabrese - wonderful man and beautiful watches.

[@Valvey789]

This reminds me of the Oris in--house movement kerfuffle, where the second hand would jump when setting the time.

[@TheAmbitiousPeasant]

I'm sure you guys already know that Ming has released their statement and are offering recalls for error correction

[@chauberthecat7469]

No tear will shed for the ming speculators oops I mean enthusiasts

[@pesoso78]

What should Ming do? Call Flash Gordon 😉

[@larsstougaard7097]

Ha ha 😂

[@topwomble]

Surely even if they got a good price on these movements they could just use the hour hand and ignore the GMT, so it must have been a choice of features

[@JohnPWatches]

Good point

[@matthiaskrause1155]

Exactly! They wanted to implement the jumping hour hand (Omega calls it "time tone function"), so the zone time can be set without stopping the minute hand.

[@juniorgallo8786]

@@JohnPWatches Not a smart move trying to be inventive screwing third-party movements I mean, if something goes wrong I'll have problems with your buyers and also be in a big trouble with your supplier. Sellita has a good reputation and that can be a real concern.

[@jjjfffppp]

Very interesting stuff. Oris actually does offer a 10 year warranty on there in house calibers. But that's the only time I've ever heard of a warranty that long.

[@larsstougaard7097]

Yes pretty good, I think that both IWC and JLC extended their warranty to 8 years a few years back. I like that, take care of your customers 😊

[@johnk.l.5518]

I agree, I think it was a bad choice. Also, if using a GMT movement this way, it could have been neat if it was designed as a 24 hour watch. 🤔

[@christ6874]

I'm thinking in my head ...... recall recall recall. Enthusiast or not, inherent slack or not, this problem is not acceptable. Not even in a $200 watch, let alone one at this price point. They had 2 delays and now this problem? If we apply the 3-strike rule ...........

[@tlb8647]

The exact same problem occurred with my Omega Planet Ocean, which also has the jump hour function - letting it run does not fix the issue.

[@robboyer6448]

Awesome watch

[@blasien1]

Still confused about what's happening. Is Ming using the GMT spindle for their sole hour hand? Does this movement's GMT hand always operate misaligned, or has Ming buggered the implementation?

[@ocb05]

They screwed up the modification.

[@sinjon]

They simply didn’t make the necessary gear train modifications to get it to do what they wanted to do correctly

[@saulysw]

This should really not have passed QC at the design / prototype stage.

[@juniorgallo8786]

The next time Ming designs a watch they should call Hans first to see if it's a good idea.

[@govtfunded]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer group of shady folk for doing this rollout the way they did it.

[@joshn.5625]

How are they shady? Asking genuinely.

[@govtfunded]

@@joshn.5625 as Federico said, some kind of fair rollout when people like him are offered to purchase the watch ahead of time backchannel. MING has jumped the shark.

[@sinjon]

@@joshn.5625 They make you pay to produce the watch. It’s like buying a special order car. Not really shady if you know what you’re getting yourself into

[@greaterbayareahero1401]

Getting people to pay a deposit is not shady. If they were shady they would not offer to fix the problem. Shady is Daniel Wellington.

[@ikirikchi]

This is an issue not only for enthusiasts, but for any normal human being who pays more than 100 USD for a watch. They had to recognize the problem on a prototype stage and then change the misused movement before selling them.

[@watchfalcon122]

Pretty big issue for Ming considering they have about 1000+ more blue/burgundy 17.09s with the same movement to ship in the next several months. Swapping out the movement after the deposit will require an offer of refund on that deposit due to a change in product and services. Maybe they shouldn't have been so arrogant about their response to releasing a new 17.09 collaboration/edition shortly after promoting the blue and burgundy 17.09s as the last of the line. Played the semantics angle against their customers and now they are getting a slice of humble pie.

[@dultree]

Can we say Karma?

[@watchfalcon122]

@@dultree amen

[@thewatchloungechris]

At this price point this shouldn't be an issue, with Seiko I see it and we all accept that , but for collectors no, my guess is they had a batch of this movement laying around not being used and or possibly got a better deal on this movement trying to save a couple of bucks and it might cost them as a brand .

[@roberthiers5606]

Yikes! Sounds like Oris. Just live with it.

[@brianwca]

I was lucky enough to get the black dial and have no alignment issues. I can set it to 6 o'clock and it's dead straight. For all we know 5-10 people out of 200 are seeing this issue and they just happen to have big Instagram followings. People like me who are totally pleased with it have no reason to come online and complain, so you're not getting the full picture.

[@mondrayuk]

Thank G-d I was not one of those who were not selected to purchase this watch under their last minute lottery system! The secondary gray market is brutal regrading Ming watches. Archie Luxury slates them as Dog$hit!

[@tizombie]

Disappointing that a brand with Ming’s following would allow a watch with such obvious QC issues would be shipped to customers. Poor use of Ming’s goodwill. Great piece JP.

[@samack3]

Idk about that nato strap man looks pretty lumpy on your wrist I like mine to lay as flat as possible

[@davidhfriedman]

This is the same movement as the "regular" 17.09? Is this only an issue with the messina lab version ... There were many hundreds of red and blue 17.09 sold a while. Have any of those been delivered yet? If not, this could be 10x the problem that they have now.... 😳

[@jaredcoffin3907]

Shighter is as shighter does sir. We “care about the subtleties?! “ lol. While I have to admit I nodded off about halfway through this droning vid but the understated, pandering, ho hum, tone of this vid is breathtaking. Never has so much been uttered about the nuances of a catastrophic watch flaw. “Slack variance?!” Is this guy serious? “Give it some time to catch up?!” This is a joke right? “More of an issue if that hand is used for a critical function?!” 😦 This vid is quite a disservice. Imagine the person hypnotized into accepting this fatal flaw. I have an underwater bridge to sell him, lol. JP, is there ANY pig you wouldn’t put lipstick on? Ming should be dispatched to the ash heap of history.

[@bostoncollector]

This is because it is a jump hour function. People probably don’t understand but basically the hour should be jumped in 1 hr increments. If you half jump the hour then it will be miss aligned.

[@jameskwon7617]

They tried to get too cute. They should have just made a desk GMT if they had access to cheap GMT movements. There are also 12 hour GMT movements (Sinn uses these alot)

[@bbrebozo6417]

Omega has timezone jumping hour hands on some of its simple 3 hand watches (e.g. heritage seamaster 300m) and it doesn’t have such issues.

[@dimman77]

That's because ETA knows what they are doing and all Ming did was ask his factory, that clearly doesn't know what they are doing, to make something similar except cheap.

[@bbrebozo6417]

@@dimman77 so basically you’re saying Ming = overpriced fashion watch.

[@dimman77]

@@bbrebozo6417 More like he's no different than a Kickstarter brand, his stuff is just more expensive. So maybe yeah, overpriced fashion watch.

[@alansmith4395]

It’s a pretty unique ascetic to begin with. So movements aside, I just don’t really dig them.

[@kevinfernandez8416]

Man does this channel have a ton of haterade.

[@fire_watch7735]

Great explanation, however, this QC/oversight issue is unacceptable and using "a brand for unthusiats" is not a reasonable excuse. The hands are way off and after owning over 100 watches and handling thousands more, I've never seen hands that are that far off from a new watch.

[@dominickcolasanto6582]

Alignment of hands are expected on a 10 dollar watch let alone a enthusiast watch. Poor product pre testing.

[@MrJamesDuffy]

Oh, I just realized this is the same issue I have with my Glycine Airman Purist which has the hour hand on the hand stack where the GMT had would be. Now I do not know if it will be worth the $50 to have my local watchmaker realign the hands.

[@richardsims4717]

In the UK “minging “ is slang for ugly and nasty.

[@vktravellog1242]

I guess I wont be getting a ming now!

[@markdance574]

Sorry to my basic mind the watch is a mess - the numerals and inconsistent design of the numerals just ruins what would possibly have been an ok piece but that said I don’t really get the hype on this brand .

[@robertschmidt9584]

I like the video and the mention of Wind Vintage, but you’re quite “long winded” in your explanation of the issue thereafter. Maybe something shorter in format next time. Just saying…..

[@nothingevermatters..1109]

Well the critics love them 🤔

[@pablox3783]

All these hype watches, all these independents. Cant help but think that when the bubble bursts, there is going to be a lot of disappointed people, who have wasted a lot of money.

[@generath5439]

You believe they're all junk and are going to break?

[@juniorgallo8786]

I was thinking exactly the same. Putting money in any activity has its risks and small businesses always suffer more from eventual bubbles but I believe they all have hopes of not being micro some day, except those who make BIG money releasing small batches like Laurent Ferrier. There are no crises when you work for super millionaires.

[@dimman77]

These "high-end" "independents" are really just Kickstarter-type micro brands that are contracting to more expensive factories with higher-end parts. But the amount of technical input they have is the same: nothing.

[@pablox3783]

@@generath5439 not at all. It just scares me if a brand goes bust so does my service and repair( generic movements not included) . A data base of all operations, maintenance and manufacturing information from independents would be a great idea. With 3D printers and modern tech it would be nice to know if my 20k independent watch brand goes bust in 10 years, a spare part could be manufactured easily to repair it.

[@ausaleve6002]

Makes me regret to have ordered a regular 17.09 :/

[@java2233]

If I was buying a new 2 hand watch for over 3 grand I would expect the hands aligned. Not good enough from Ming.

[@Jumpjets]

These watches could’ve had an nh35 and still would’ve sold them all.

[@larsstougaard7097]

Exactly ✌

[@juniorgallo8786]

Too bad this happens because it can crash the plane while it's taking off. I hope they do a recall and regain credibility because they do make beautiful watches.

[@sinjon]

Crash a plane?

[@juniorgallo8786]

@@sinjon Methaphorically speaking, I meant. They were doing good before the messina-ming colab watch release, it was awhile ago but it seems they've messed it up with a GMT movement trying to be "innovative". Not yet completely solved as some customers still waiting for a solution for the misaligned hands problem.

[@dimman77]

Little late to the party on the coverage of this one. Just like Ming finally deciding to fix the hands. Heh...

[@juniortoledo8088]

Why wouldn't they use the hour hand cannon rather than the GMT?? This is a manufacturing mistake, nothing cool or quirky. May be the incorrect diameter of the hand's perforation and they decided to use the GMT cannon? No matter what, this is not good for the brand. It only takes one mistake like this to loose a ton of customers. What can they do, simple...rather than replacing the movements, gather back the watches and add a GMT hand at Ming's cost, do the necessary mods then go tell the customers they are getting a more expensive dual time watch for the price of a time only one.

[@joseperez3885]

Well said.I agree.

[@jasonlayman8817]

lol he could have said sorry i don't want to hurt our future relationship in case Ming takes off. But you made a bad watch and sold it anyway without carrying to make it right or made sure it worked correctly before sending out the watches.

[@clarea-s6779]

Minging?

[@canadianwatchmonkey3992]

No matter how you look at it, this is unacceptable, it is a watch and it has to be accurate in it’s function specially at this price point.

[@sinjon]

It doesn’t have markings or numerals. How do you know when it’s accurate

[@SevGW]

I mean... quirkiness and all aside who wants a watch with hands that do not align. this was never ever intended I don't think and MING is now looking for excuses

[@MTbone7]

It’s a $2500 shitter, duh

[@Teymurphell2]

How 💩 a watch has to be for the hands not to aline

[@AJMacDonaldJr]

A disaster for Ming. They should offer to refund everyone's money on return of the watch.

[@sts265]

They have offered a fix to everyone who raised this issue to them, or a full refund, according to instagram comments

[@elefantrising]

Hans.

[@chinwengkeong]

Nobody asked for a time only watch to be made with a movement that’s not time only. Nobody asked that a GMT movement be put into a watch that isn’t a GMT. This was an unnecessary decision fraught with peril from the get go. Ming needs to handle this delicately, instead of with their typical pomp and pride.

[@davidhunternyc1]

John P is digging himself into a hole by defending Ming. John is kissing Ming's butt.

[@RobertOrtiz1015]

They should refund the people that want a refund. I know i would not want to own this watch as is.

[@frankpentangeli7945]

I don't see the big advantage to having a jumping hour hand on a simple time-only watch with no date complication. Did they make this watch for LAZY people? How much effort does it really take to turn the crown to move the minute hand enough to change the hour?!? By doing this, Ming added "convenience" that was completely unnecessary while introducing a huge potential problem that turned out to be a reality. REALLY POOR DECISION MAKING! Ming needs to recall these watches.

[@Martin745]

hi :D

[@tourbeyond4372]

Yes, more Hans. The Volk have spoken

[@vrbanitas]

how is that epic failure cool? They tried to blame shipping, customer's ignorance and everything else but admit their fault. They should apologize and recall this shitter.

[@jensh.2595]

They done.

[@stuntmonkey00]

Honestly, as an Asian person, it's not hard see the undercurrents of racial stirring the pot when it comes to Ming. This was a man who had a remarkable reputation as a professional photographer before he went into the watch business. Watch community, I want to be wrong, but if you've heard the dog whistle all your life, you can't unhear.

[@swizzmamba8912]

Now talk about their uneven lume application...

[@AbdulRWatches]

MING is definitely doing the worst they can do by providing bad information to their customer, and also very bad customer service according to all the comments online.

[@WINDINGCROWNS]

What's up Abdul

[@AbdulRWatches]

@@WINDINGCROWNS Hey buddy, all is well. Hope all is well on your end.

[@woonfaseng8737]

ming watches are overhyped and overpriced.... the design is nothing really that spectacular or unique. probably they just managed to get enough watch circle personalities to speak for them in earlier years. selling their uniqueness of them being a ethnic chinese Malaysia-Singapore based brand.

[@JA-re8gi]

A Daniel Wellington is a better watch.

[@eyeshowyou]

2500 dollar for a watch thats not working??? Rediculous! Better buy a Casio...they always work

[@davidrowan9163]

Unfortunate choice of brand name. In the UK ‘Ming’ is a slang word meaning dirty, disgusting, smelly etc 🙄

[@dimman77]

Yeah, bad choice using his own name...

[@davidrowan9163]

Terrible choice using his own name. If a brand is intended to be internationally marketed then any company displaying due diligence would avoid any word with negative connotations.

[@dimman77]

@@davidrowan9163 Maybe, but I don't know how much some obscure, kinda racist-sounding, UK slang is going to matter for international marketing. I've personally never heard of "ming" in UK slang (as a Canadian with a boss from Northern England I've heard the common stuff), just "minge" from South Park's crazy Episode about Mingey and Gary and Oprah. The rest of the world is just going to think about Chinese vases and the Ming Dynasty. Parmigiani has a tougher time given the association with cheese in both Europe and North America.

[@davidrowan9163]

There’s nothing racist about it and to imply that it is is a very poor way of attempting to ‘score points’. Rgds

[@dimman77]

@@davidrowan9163 Look dude what's less aware of vocabulary? You thinking that a guy shouldn't use his own name because of some obscure slang? Or your lack of awareness that your slang that sounds like a well known Chinese name that represented a national dynasty is used for "smelly" could be offensive to millions of Chinese? Get a clue dude.

[@manuellee2309]

Ming is a micro brand trying to be an independent watchmaker wannabe at the end of the day

[@davidhunternyc1]

Stop making excuses. Ming has been around for just a few years and they are already pulling an Apple. Can you say, "hourgate?"

[@kijntje01]

Your topics are great, only always toooo long. Edit 50% out. To much repeat. Just a tip.

[@brinx8634]

Maybe it was this....maybe it was that....blah blah blah. Twenty minutes of an extraordinarily convoluted explanation that explains nothing.

[@MrJamesDuffy]

Good points but slow down and take a breath, man. Your videos are always insightful but they make me so anxious.