High voltage igniter teardown with schematic

[@LakeNipissing]

Anything that Clive describes as "Very sparky and poppy" has to be good !

[@wearemany73]

So Clive got bored and dismantled his cooker..maybe next week when Clive stays at a local hotel we'll get a reverse engineered "Corby trouser press" 😁 Cool video. 👍

[@terrymarky9996]

Hello Susan.....

[@wearemany73]

@@terrymarky9996 ... lazy

[@everythingknife8763]

Clive, I really appreciate the light and sound warnings you give. I typically watch in a dark room with headphones on. Your courtesy has prevented a few migraines. Thank you, Sir.

[@Derek_Garnham]

Hi Clive, Great news, because of your videos, I completely understand how that circuit works (not bad for a chemist). I suspected there was some learning going on while watching your other videos but this nice little circuit did it for me - good choice . Thanks Teach.

[@RichardT2112]

The only person I’ve ever seen, who tests if something will shock them, by touching the ends with his fingers. That is precisely why we love you Big C!

[@davidbrown8365]

Brilliant stuff, finally a circuit simple enough that I could follow the logic. Keep up the good work!

[@phils4634]

You mentioned SIDACs in a previous "deconstruction" video - and they are useful for the purpose shown - dumping a large charge from a cap in series with an inductor. I've seen these being used in other applications (particularly mains bug zappers, where the HV output is used to charge a cap. bank for an "extra juicy" spark when an "undesireable" bridges the (usually wire mesh) contacts!

[@phils4634]

@GeorgiaRocketman 😁 😁 😁

[@henrybecker2842]

I don't recall ever hearing of a SIDAC. Thanks for teaching me something new. Perhaps this can be part of a new Wiffle Machine?

[@Sonny_McMacsson]

It sounds like it acts like a solid state spark gap.

[@markfergerson2145]

@@Sonny_McMacsson Yes exactly. It's a multilayer device in the thyristor family. It's basically a higher power diac.

[@xxycom8963]

It is a DIAC’s Lil’ brother.

[@jimmclay2353]

How did you reply 3 weeks ago when the video is 2 hours old ?

[@Chris_the_Muso]

@@jimmclay2353 Patreon members get early access.

[@mattostrokol]

I love the teardowns so much. This is total what I do when I change out appliance parts (I'm an appliance repair technician, I end up with lots of broken parts. 😂) so I can see how they work and how they failed.

[@Zodliness]

That module looks very similar to the Hotpoint HUG61X gas igniter module that failed on my old cooker. I managed to replace it with one of those cheap eBay igniter (stungun) modules, that surprisingly produced a much healthier spark from a single 18650 cell. Interesting video Clive, thanks for sharing.

[@dfu1685]

Thank you so much for the detail about this unit! Just a joy to watch and listen to the purpose & means of components you demystify for those of us that are just curious . Than you!

[@Knaeckebrotsaege]

My grandpa had a Vaillant gas boiler for hot water in his apartment which automagically ignited when you turned on the hot water tap or shower. It automagically turned on the gas supply and fired an igniter for 1-2 seconds that sounded similar to the one in this video. This was unlike any of those gas boilers that I've seen before, all of which had a manually ignited pilot flame and wasted gas all the time if you didn't turn them fully off. Was kinda jealous of his "deluxe" boiler, and with gas prices now exploding this automatic igniter version would make even more sense and not be as annoying as manually turning it fully off and reigniting the pilot every time you want hot water

[@Parakstitais]

This is the best channel about electronics 😉

[@martinnewbery3032]

Another absolute classic Clive. Keep them coming. Martin.

[@tomclanys]

I never knew about SIDACs, thank you for the explanation! Seriously nowhere in my education, even in engineering did they tell us about it.

[@MrTurboturbine]

I found the snapping sound very satisfying actually.

[@petersage5157]

Not a bad solution for ignition, though I prefer piezo igniters. Push down against a stiff spring, trigger mechanism trips and dumps the energy stored in the spring into a hammer that bangs a piece of quartz, and the mechanical impact is converted by the quartz into a spark. (Almost sounds Rube Goldbergian when you spell out the entire process, but it's simple and effective. It works, it's neat, and it doesn't require any angry pixies in to get angry pixies out. It's almost alchemy.)

[@AsmodeusMictian]

piezo is one of those pieces of equipment that have always fascinated me.... ...what the hell you mean you smack a crystal and get electricity out of it?! Seriously?!

[@EddieTheH]

Piezo's great for cookers and the like but not so much for gas boilers or anything else that needs automated. I always figured it'd just be a flyback transformer for things like this

[@petersage5157]

@@EddieTheH My most recent experience with a gas range still used pilot lights, and it wasn't terribly old. I can see how something like this would be more practical and reliable.

[@EddieTheH]

@@petersage5157 Yeah, it got me curious so I had a look in my combi boiler, it looks to be a similar thing to this.

[@Bubu567]

The resin potting increases the voltage rating on the transformers. It would have to be way larger to meet the same voltage rating without being potted.

[@radio-ged4626]

SIDAC... Seemed familiar to me when described. Then I looked it up and learned it's similar to a DIAC only working at much higher breakdown voltages. Very interesting to learn about these devices as I am more of a T.V/Radio/Computer component level repair engineer. So I rarely get to deal with domestic white goods or industrial electronics.

[@AMDRADEONRUBY]

Just in time before bed time a new video! I love ignitor find them really interesting.

[@BarneySaysHi]

8:52 "They're probably operating in their range." Yeah, isn't that where the sparker is build into in the first place? 😁 Sorry Clive, I couldn't resist!

[@EmptyMTYT]

I just found this chanel and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about but I like your voice so I think I'll stick around

[@piconano]

I knew they existed and what they did, but never seen it used this way. Looked up the datasheet. There is a few good application examples there. This one is more like Figure-14 of the datasheet from LittleFuse for Kxxxzy SIDAC. Interesting video as always.

[@schtepke]

oh man, i'm totally hooked on your videos! you are such a treasure! big thankyou!

[@SuperBrainAK]

oh so that is how those work! I have one from somewhere, I knew it was an igniter but didn't know it could just be plugged in and work. Thanks for the video! maybe I will use it for something someday!

[@bigclivedotcom]

See if it has a voltage rating on it. Some may be for low voltage use.

[@SuperBrainAK]

@@bigclivedotcom thanks for the reply, it does have a voltage rating of 120-240 Vac 0.6 - 8.5VA It has a model number of BK50064.51 So yea very similar to yours, I do see the primary wire coming back from the far end. 20.9 microHenry 0.02 ohms primary 2 microFarad capacitor 397 milliHenry 808 ohm secondary (1 out of 3 )

[@bobair2]

Looks like a model train to me as well,so if you can, why not put wheels on and keep it as a background piece in your videos! A good video as per normal and I enjoy how you explain how the circuit works. Keep 'em coming Clive and thank ya.

[@jerkycam]

Yea it looks like a little train :D

[@American-Motors-Corporation]

Oh it's 2:40 in the morning, I'm watching big Clive again!

[@mfx1]

Connect the secondary windings in series and pull a spark off that.

[@simon-maddox]

I was looking at one of these just a few days ago. I couldn't understand how it worked without an earth reference connection on the generator, but I guess with a floating transformer the chassis is just a connection between the 2 sparks - whether grounded or not is unimportant. Clever!

[@PushyPawn]

I hope one day you get a chance to do a teardown of an on-sparkplug ignition coil.

[@Giuliana-w1f]

Ways to overclock it: 1- full bridge rectifier 2- bigger capacitor 3- higher frequency power suply

[@johndododoe1411]

Higher frequency input will do nothing. DC input will feed the spark oscillator continuously instead of half the time, thus doubling the output speed.

[@chrispomphrett4283]

4- Fire extinguisher

[@Giuliana-w1f]

@@johndododoe1411 i said higher frequency, not dc. It would do the same, but faster

[@Giuliana-w1f]

@@massriver (as far as i understood) it discharges at the top of the sine wave, and the sidac would just turn off close to 0v. So a full bridge recticfier would just make it do the same, twice as fast (i think)

[@johndododoe1411]

@@Giuliana-w1f It won't spark until the LC circuit has been pumped with enough energy to create the spark. This energy apparently takes multiple 50Hz cycles to gather as it sparks less than 50 times per second. How do you think faster input cycles will speed up the energy build up beyond it's current speed?

[@carlgradolph9676]

Thanks for providing this informative teardown. I have a cheap propane gas burner and am getting tired of flicking my Bic every time I go to brew my morning coffee.... Per the datasheet, the SIDAC used in this igniter has a breakdown voltage of ~220, but AC mains power where I live is ~117. Fortunately, Littelfuse manufactures a range of similar units with different ratings. Interested experimenters might wish to search for "Teccor® brand Thyristors/Standard Unidirectional SIDACs/KxxxzyU SIDAC Series 561" for more information.

[@bigclivedotcom]

You can get battery operated gas cooker igniter modules on eBay.

[@croingo8294]

its so considerate he warns us about the lights and possible sounds

[@wherami]

thank you for all of the warnings. lol i do always wear headphones watching your vids

[@RFC-3514]

3:57 - You know that zooming down doesn't actually make it louder, right? ;-)

[@eebaker699]

Good video. Very interesting to see what's inside and how they work. I have one of these things in my Chef gas cooker. They don't have a very long life unfortunately. Mine went bad after 18 months.

[@BjornV78]

If i'm not mistaken, a Sidac acts almost like a bipolair TVS diode, except a TVS conducts constantly during clamping, while a Sidac disconnects during clamping again when the voltage is dropped below the threshold, almost like a neon bulb does on each cycle. Never knew that these igniters where build with only a few components, you should think that a PWM IC or 555 is used. Nice video. Grtz

[@billdevany3303]

been in electronics for 40+ years. never ran across a SIDAC! back in the 70s I built strobe lights using the same circuit for the trigger, how ever, we used an ne2 neon bulb instead of the sidac. if I remember it had around 90v breakdown.

[@lerssilarsson6414]

Watched your last night show and i'm here again - Addiction? 😁

[@MattyEngland]

Big Cliveoholics Anonymous.

[@fredflintstone1]

very nice simple video and explaination of the igniter 🙂

[@andreasu.3546]

Why does it have three circuits? Cooktops tend to come in two or four hobs usually. Two hobs plus oven maybe?

[@ruben_balea]

Some have three gas and one electric.

[@bigclivedotcom]

They're available in a multiple of outputs.

[@hoverbovver]

I used to work at Plessey in the 1970s in next building to where they manufactured these type of ignitor coils. Long gone now. Used to have a drawer full of scrap ones but think I threw them.

[@Alacritous]

That resin looks like those toy sculpture kits you could buy when we were kids where you'd chip away at the soft material to leave the hard premade statue inside.

[@northumbriarail]

Certainly does look like a model steam loco! Clive is a closet crank?!

[@sparkyprojects]

And you weren't tempted to connect the coils in series for a longer spark ? ;)

[@stusue9733]

Without the 6.8Mohm resistor could these charge up and spark randomly? I ask because we have a gas stove that does just that. Every few hours I guess.

[@bigclivedotcom]

Yes. That can happen with capacitive coupling between wires.

[@stusue9733]

@@bigclivedotcom Thank you. Good to know it's not a sign on a problem.

[@UserUser-ww2nj]

SIDAC from AliExpress " could be unpredictable " . What an understatement 😆😆

[@TheUnknownCatWarrior]

A SIDAC is silicon diode for alternating current. A SIDAC was used bc it has a higher breakover voltage and current handling capacities than DIACs.

[@SusanAmberBruce]

Like the high voltage circuits 😀

[@TonyLing]

Wow Clive, I never knew about the SIDAC, thanks.

[@FabriDragon]

11:25 we had this race car in our shop that didn’t have the ignition coil wired correctly to the main power cutoff switch, (many years ago, can’t remember the exact problem) so like half the time if you switched off the main switch shortly after stopping the engine with the ignition switch, it would unexpectedly fire one cylinder and crank the engine 1/4 turn. 😬

[@rickjljr11]

curious about the power dissipation in those resistors. turns out it is not as simple as I expected to calculate. With his 240 volt 50 Hz power it takes 5 cycles for the capacitor to charge and the thyristor to fire. first cycle it draws an average of 9mA yielding 0.4 Watts. 5th cycle 2.4mA 0.03 Watts. over all 5 4.85mA for about 1/8th Watt. the pulse shouldn't add much.

[@TravisStamper]

I was sad you didn't try wheels on it before the "breakdown"....🤣. Thanks for the video Clive

[@robertallen5890]

as always sir Clive ty

[@joop2295]

Interesting video! I was wondering, is a SIDAC the same thing as a DIAC, which I know from triac dimmer circuits?

[@justsayen2024]

Very interesting I always wondered what triggered the pulse in the electricity, I am of the HVAC field so this would be a component in the main circuit board for a heater.

[@markmarkofkane8167]

The last gas range we had used pilot lights. Everything we have now is electric. Even the home heating. So. the sidac works like points in an old car ignition system? Making the primary on the coil suddenly collapse?

[@greenmanreddog]

If the supply voltage happend to be below 220V, e.g. in a farmhouse at the far end of a long local distribution line, would the SIDAC fail to trigger? If so, you wouldn't be able to light your gas hob without matches 🙂It might have been more reliable if the SIDAC were set to trigger at around, say, 200V. Would there be any negative side-effect to doing this?

[@mfbfreak]

The effective voltage can be below 220v, as long as the peak of the sine wave is over 220v. Even in the worst case, it will still be plenty to trigger it - rectified mains is about 300v.

[@diamondfailer11]

How bad would a shock from these hurt? We have almost exclusively gas stoves with these igniters in my country, always tempted to touch the spark when cooking.

[@MattyEngland]

I've not been shocked by one of these, but I have been shocked by a vehicle spark plug.... it hurts a lot.

[@bigclivedotcom]

It's a bit stabby, but that's it.

[@catandtheostrich]

Big yin, you had me at "High Voltage".

[@bobdoritique7347]

Merci! Very interesting schema.

[@tundramanq]

This transformer is probably for use in a voltage multiplying circuit. A diode on each stage charging a capacitor in a stack of capacitors with output from ground to the final high voltage stage. Old TVs used these to make the CRT anode / cathode high differential voltage..Also called a voltage ladder.

[@bigclivedotcom]

It's for gas ignition.

[@brianallen9810]

"One Moment Pleeease" My favorite part.

[@simonilett998]

I have a very similar one of these I salvaged from a 90's gas cooker, with 'Sarico' on it as the brand name. The six spark output leads go to six separate ceramic insulated ends. Two outputs have metal mounting brackets and attached to the bracket is a solid wire for the spark to jump to. These two would have been to ignite the oven and grill, and the other four outputs for the four pot burners. I assume they would've used the cooker chasis ground connection as the return path of each spark output? Can you possibly confirm my theory please Big Clive🤔

[@paulmccoy2908]

It’s more likely that each circuit is jumping two spark gaps in series and the appliance chassis just completes the circuit between two of the igniter tips.

[@simonilett998]

@@paulmccoy2908 Thanks Paul. Ah yes, that makes sense, given the way Big Clive just added the wire links to each output terminal pair (either end of each individual transformer output winding) and clipped them to provide a spark gap, and that also jives perfectly with the schematic Clive showed too👌👍

[@jensschroder8214]

SIDAC - maybe something like an overvoltage triggering of a thysistor. Or when a transistor is operated above the defined voltage and switches from C to E without using B in fact, every diode junction can be made to conduct over a certain overvoltage. It depends on the manufacturer to do it in such a way that it is controlled. A DIAC fires at about 30 volts. It was often used in dimmer circuits.

[@darrennewman7761]

How many volts and mA do you get on the out/spark? does anyone know?

[@bigclivedotcom]

Probably about 5kV and fairly high current, but only for a very short time.

[@umxrr8677]

I definitely saw these the other day, and probably threw them away, didn't think they were of much use

[@pleasecho2]

Love the tear downs. Done anything with spark modules for ovens or furnaces that have the REIG (re ignition) feature? Fascinating! The flame is detected by a (lowering of resistance of the flame)? itself which turns off sparking. MUCH more interesting

[@bigclivedotcom]

The flame rod system is interesting. It uses the conductivity of a flame.

[@brucepickess8097]

This triggered and ARCtivatede my interest in this device, so here is some more info. A Silicon Diode for Alternating Current (SIDAC) is a less commonly used device, electrically similar to the DIAC, but having, in general, a higher breakover voltage and greater current handling capacity.[citation needed] The SIDAC is another member of the thyristor family. Also referred to as a SYDAC (silicon thyristor for alternating current), bi-directional thyristor breakover diode, or more simply a bi-directional thyristor diode, it is technically specified as a bilateral voltage triggered switch. Its operation is similar to that of the DIAC, but SIDAC is always a five-layer device with low-voltage drop in latched conducting state, more like a voltage triggered TRIAC without a gate. In general, SIDACs have higher breakover voltages and current handling capacities than DIACs, so they can be directly used for switching and not just for triggering of another switching device. The operation of the SIDAC is functionally similar to that of a spark gap, but is unable to reach its higher temperature ratings. The SIDAC remains nonconducting until the applied voltage meets or exceeds its rated breakover voltage. Once entering this conductive state going through the negative dynamic resistance region, the SIDAC continues to conduct, regardless of voltage, until the applied current falls below its rated holding current. At this point, the SIDAC returns to its initial nonconductive state to begin the cycle once again. Somewhat uncommon in most electronics, the SIDAC is relegated to the status of a special purpose device. However, where part-counts are to be kept low, simple relaxation oscillators are needed, and when the voltages are too low for practical operation of a spark gap, the SIDAC is an indispensable component. ⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡😏

[@railgap]

I wonder whether spark ignition would be any higher or lower reliability / life as the "hot surface ignitors" I keep replacing every five or six years.

[@Mr.BrownsBasement]

I knew what a Diac was but a Sidac is new to me. Sort of makes me think of a solid state neon bulb.

[@TopEndSpoonie]

Nice. Now that I have bought one, I need to find a use for it.

[@Ni5ei]

Put some wheels under it, some metal chimneys, power it up and give it as a present to your little nephew.

[@MattyEngland]

Taser

[@TopEndSpoonie]

@@MattyEngland would never do that, that would be illegal😖😳😆🤔

[@VanguardSys]

can i ask what printer u are using to print the pictures? the images are vibrant thanks!!

[@bigclivedotcom]

Epson ecotank.

[@VanguardSys]

@@bigclivedotcom tanks same one i have - hmmm may i ask model? i appreciate your videos - great! 1 moment please

[@bigclivedotcom]

@@VanguardSys All units will produce similar quality. The lighting of the photo is also very important.

[@o0OMouseO0o]

Kind of missed an opportunity to beef it up a bit by reducing the input resistors and speeding it up.

[@SeanBZA]

Not going to do the SIDAC any good life wise, seeing as it is beinmg run here rather well past the ratings. Normally meant to be on for 10 seconds at most every 5 minutes, to ignite a burner. Otherwise you just blow up the sidac from overcurrent, though they are very cheap even retail, looked up by me and it is a 20p UK part. Rated for 0.9A continuous, 4A single pulse, so even here it is being run very hard. You would need to add in a decent SCR and a few more resistors to get it to run continuous, and then upgrade that 2u2 capacitor to one with a pulse rating that is useful. Will make it probably 5 times the volume, and 30 times the price.

[@robsmith9392]

Is a SIDAC and a DIAC the same? I remember dials in switch mode power supplies of old (Olivetti M24 Power supplies) Wonder if the modern ignition coil work on a similar basis as I always fancied making a cattle fence out of one of those…

[@johnlishman4946]

i loved that when you said i may have to get destructive there now ! "that's not like you Clive " smash it to bit is what you meant he he he

[@bonnyriggcraig]

Love how you touch it to see if you would get a shock from it. ⚡⚡🤣🤣

[@dpearson80808]

Pulled one of these out of an old stove I’m wondering can I wire them in parallel and achieve a larger spark?

[@RRrrRRrrlandfin]

Thank you for interesting content:) Video suggestion: How headlight height adjuster works, how it knows multiple positions, not just one/off. Following voltage level somehow i think

[@bigclivedotcom]

Sometimes a motorised actuator.

[@norjia]

"i don't think i can get a schock from that" *Imidiatly touches bare wires to see if the assumption is correct* XD that was quite funny to me

[@Farlig69]

4:29 "Embra" - Love it!!!!

[@MrRedeyedJedi]

So that's producing pulsed DC current to energise those transformers... Interesting, I assume it's more useful for creating more of a delayed pulse with that sidac for the sparks?

[@mikewarlow3956]

Excellent as always!

[@TheAntibozo]

I wonder if there is any high-frequency feedback into the mains from the impulse when the SIDAC discharges.

[@dragonrider4253]

Wonder if that can output enough energy to fire one of those aforementioned xenon flash tubes. I might just get one and try it myself.

[@bigclivedotcom]

Only to strike it, not much intensity directly.

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

I guess a sidac, is like a normal diac on steroids! I've built this kind of circuit using a diac triggering a thyristor, but this is a much simpler way to do it. You can also use a ne2 neon, to trigger a thyristor. It does the same thing.

[@bigclivedotcom]

Yeah. It's like a power diac.

[@cthulpiss]

would it be a wise idea to add such gizmo to (very) old kitchen stove ?

[@bigclivedotcom]

Only if it already has locations for the spark electrodes.

[@dieseldonkey]

Great video. So is this how a coil pack on a petrol engine would work? 1 for each spark plug?

[@bigclivedotcom]

With a petrol engine there's usually one high voltage coil per spark plug these days.

[@keithvers569]

When these fail is it the heat that has destroyed the capacitor or the diode that breaks down?

[@ripleyleuzarder630]

they look like Pulse transformers for triggering old scr 1,2,4 dc drives. Std and Regen. but the shielding UJT junction signal driver ckt, never really impressed me until Opto Isolaters, came into play. That was a lot of fun...late 70's.

[@rinner2801]

Can you use such a circuit to power a small, low-duty Tesla coil (with interrupter) similar to a "Slayer Exciter" circuit but without the transistor?

[@bigclivedotcom]

I don't think it would provide much power to a Tesla coil. It's hard to beat the slayer circuit for simplicity.

[@rinner2801]

@@bigclivedotcom That makes sense, probably why I haven't seen any such designs.

[@EverydayDiy]

Clive do they all go off in sync or is there a minute delay? follow up; does the primary side go through 3 iterations to fire them all or are they all charged with a single discharge of the capacitor?

[@erlendse]

Primaries may be in series so the first spark won't get all the energy. It's not normal behaviour for a spark gap to spark at more than one place at a time unless in series.

[@fredfred2363]

Did I miss something? There was a time constant when it was demo'd, so it sparked every half second or so? Is that why there was a combination 5.1k and the 2.2uF? So the DC voltage across the cap ramped up each cycle until it got clamped. Just a guess...

[@bigclivedotcom]

The timing of each pulse is determined by the time it takes to charge the capacitor to the SIDACs trigger threshold.

[@channelsixtysix066]

Clive, would it be too severe for a stimulator play-thingy?

[@DerMarkus1982]

Those sparks were a bit underwhelming. But they'd do their job - ignite a stream of gas-air mix from a jet nozzle in a gas-powered device. We have some households equipped with gas-powered continuous-flow heaters (for tap water) here in Austria, and I specifically remember the one "from my childhood". It had no electrical connections; to ignite the pilot flame, a single electric spark would be given by twisting the knob on a cylindrical gadget. Heavy resistance when turning, and it would suddenly give a very loud "click" that would be amplified by resonance in the flow heater's chassis. Scared the shirt off me the first time i did that! Years later I learned about the piezo-electric effect.

[@mikeyyoyo6464]

Yessiree Bob ❤️✌️

[@littlehills]

what is the white epoxy resin ? is it like the clear stuff u use to repair things? or is it not strong

[@bigclivedotcom]

Similar. It's often used for potting electronic stuff.

[@michailnicki2224]

Pretty nifty little devices. I've managed to get the PCB out without destroying the casing by first desoldering the output wires and the input F2 (i think) connector plates - then with a little prying it came off.

[@ryanroberts1104]

Seems like the perfect accessory for a door knob!